1
00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:07,550
Welcome to the eCommerce Podcast
with me, your host, Matt Edmundson.

2
00:00:07,550 --> 00:00:11,639
This is a show all about helping
you to deliver eCommerce wow.

3
00:00:11,690 --> 00:00:15,960
And to do just that, to help us
along, I'm chatting with my very

4
00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,169
special guest, Neil Hoyne, the Chief
Strategist from Google and author of

5
00:00:20,550 --> 00:00:24,560
the fantastic book, Converted, which
is all about the data driven way,

6
00:00:24,975 --> 00:00:26,265
to win customers hearts.

7
00:00:26,295 --> 00:00:27,765
And it's actually a great book.

8
00:00:27,805 --> 00:00:31,425
I've enjoyed reading it, uh, but we'll
get more into that in just a second.

9
00:00:31,435 --> 00:00:35,754
So before we get into the conversation,
let me just take a moment to let you know

10
00:00:35,754 --> 00:00:40,704
that this podcast is brought to you by
eCommerce Cohort, the eCommerce membership

11
00:00:40,714 --> 00:00:44,784
group, which you should definitely be a
part of if you're involved in eCommerce.

12
00:00:44,785 --> 00:00:48,565
And one of the benefits, as well as all
the expert workshops and usual stuff you

13
00:00:48,565 --> 00:00:54,145
get is you get to come along and listen
to the live recording of this podcast so

14
00:00:54,145 --> 00:00:58,025
when we have amazing guests like Neil you
can be watching it before it goes live.

15
00:00:58,115 --> 00:01:00,875
You can write all your questions
in the comments and if we get

16
00:01:00,875 --> 00:01:02,275
chance, we'll definitely ask them.

17
00:01:02,485 --> 00:01:04,624
So do check it out at ecommercecohort.

18
00:01:05,454 --> 00:01:09,675
com I also want to give a bit of
a shout out to SubSummit, which

19
00:01:09,675 --> 00:01:11,535
is where I first came across Neil.

20
00:01:11,535 --> 00:01:13,705
We were just chatting about that
before we hit the record button.

21
00:01:14,115 --> 00:01:17,065
Uh, a great show and I know
they're doing SubSummit 2024.

22
00:01:17,095 --> 00:01:19,084
I will be there again more than likely.

23
00:01:19,585 --> 00:01:20,485
They've asked me back again.

24
00:01:20,514 --> 00:01:22,934
I don't know why I don't,
but apparently I'm going.

25
00:01:22,934 --> 00:01:24,075
So come join us.

26
00:01:24,814 --> 00:01:27,834
Now let's talk about today's guest, Neil.

27
00:01:27,924 --> 00:01:31,005
Uh, Neil Hoyne reigns as the
Chief Strategist at Google

28
00:01:31,315 --> 00:01:35,074
and has penned the bestseller,
Converted, the data driven way.

29
00:01:35,475 --> 00:01:36,625
To win customers hearts.

30
00:01:37,155 --> 00:01:41,865
With a senior fellowship in Artificial
Intelligence at the Wharton School.

31
00:01:42,255 --> 00:01:46,015
And a board seat at Purdue
University Global, he's quite

32
00:01:46,104 --> 00:01:48,115
the scholarly strategist, oh yes.

33
00:01:48,475 --> 00:01:52,724
Now beyond the boardroom, he is a
patented innovator in marketing,

34
00:01:52,735 --> 00:01:56,255
a published contributor to the
Harvard Business Review, no less.

35
00:01:56,729 --> 00:01:59,770
Uh, and sought after speaker
who has dazzled audiences

36
00:02:00,030 --> 00:02:02,220
in over two dozen countries.

37
00:02:02,570 --> 00:02:03,839
Uh, Neil, welcome to the show, man.

38
00:02:03,839 --> 00:02:04,640
It's great to have you.

39
00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:05,889
Thank you so much for joining me.

40
00:02:06,490 --> 00:02:07,530
Hey, the pleasure's all mine, Matt.

41
00:02:07,530 --> 00:02:08,219
Thanks for having me.

42
00:02:08,509 --> 00:02:09,759
Oh, no, it's great that you're here.

43
00:02:09,759 --> 00:02:11,899
I've been looking forward
to this one for a few weeks.

44
00:02:12,370 --> 00:02:15,160
Uh, and in full anticipation
of our conversation, I've,

45
00:02:15,220 --> 00:02:17,070
uh, read the book Converted.

46
00:02:17,519 --> 00:02:22,609
Uh, so let's just start by asking you the
question I like to ask all authors, what

47
00:02:22,609 --> 00:02:25,579
on earth possessed you to write a book?

48
00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:27,109
Boredom.

49
00:02:27,110 --> 00:02:27,779
It's

50
00:02:27,779 --> 00:02:28,779
March 2020 now.

51
00:02:30,239 --> 00:02:31,499
That enabled it.

52
00:02:31,980 --> 00:02:32,579
That enabled it.

53
00:02:32,589 --> 00:02:33,279
Who goes to that?

54
00:02:33,279 --> 00:02:37,009
Look, the first time you're writing a
book, you get to bask in the ignorance

55
00:02:37,019 --> 00:02:39,489
of not knowing the process, right?

56
00:02:39,489 --> 00:02:40,589
You think of the end result.

57
00:02:40,629 --> 00:02:41,739
I'm going to have a book.

58
00:02:42,355 --> 00:02:43,975
And you're like, well, what
does it take to write a book?

59
00:02:44,385 --> 00:02:46,325
You, you write a lot.

60
00:02:46,375 --> 00:02:50,155
You write, I think in this book,
36 -37, 000 words, which I was told

61
00:02:50,155 --> 00:02:51,594
fairly light for a business text.

62
00:02:51,595 --> 00:02:53,195
I heard they're typically 50 to 60.

63
00:02:53,485 --> 00:02:56,865
So maybe I took the easy way out,
but it was a little bit larger than

64
00:02:56,865 --> 00:03:01,505
that as well, which was a Genesis
where, you know, somebody mentioned

65
00:03:01,505 --> 00:03:02,625
to me at the beginning of COVID.

66
00:03:03,015 --> 00:03:05,415
Uh, where things were in a dire
state and also an uncertain

67
00:03:05,415 --> 00:03:06,785
state versus what we know today.

68
00:03:06,855 --> 00:03:07,125
Yeah.

69
00:03:07,745 --> 00:03:13,045
Where they said, wouldn't it be strange
if, if all your knowledge died with you?

70
00:03:13,774 --> 00:03:14,944
Now, this wasn't a comment meant to me.

71
00:03:14,944 --> 00:03:17,175
I could take it as such, and
that'd be a nice, Oh yes.

72
00:03:17,555 --> 00:03:18,434
I have a lot of knowledge.

73
00:03:18,434 --> 00:03:19,024
It's valuable.

74
00:03:19,024 --> 00:03:19,915
But to anybody.

75
00:03:20,410 --> 00:03:24,860
You go through life with these stories
and with these experiences and the

76
00:03:24,860 --> 00:03:28,509
unfortunate fact is that we often
discount the value that those stories

77
00:03:28,510 --> 00:03:30,360
and experiences have to other people.

78
00:03:30,820 --> 00:03:33,070
We think about them as commonplace
because they may be common

79
00:03:33,070 --> 00:03:34,889
to us, but unique to others.

80
00:03:35,599 --> 00:03:39,920
And so where it became was really just
me writing some of these stories and

81
00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,450
then actually sent some of them out to
university students who looked and said,

82
00:03:43,925 --> 00:03:46,085
Hey, I wish I knew that when I graduated.

83
00:03:46,265 --> 00:03:48,915
Small business owners, some
entrepreneurs who said, I didn't know

84
00:03:48,915 --> 00:03:52,025
that information that to be honest with
you, I took as trivial at the time.

85
00:03:52,025 --> 00:03:54,064
I thought, I thought
these lessons were common.

86
00:03:54,064 --> 00:03:55,225
I didn't think there
was anything new there.

87
00:03:55,644 --> 00:03:58,215
And so to be honest with you,
the only reason the book project

88
00:03:58,255 --> 00:04:01,545
happened was because it was never
designed to be a book, right?

89
00:04:01,564 --> 00:04:04,025
It was originally started just
to be, look, I'll put together a

90
00:04:04,025 --> 00:04:06,765
collection of stories and lessons
that if they're helpful to people.

91
00:04:07,670 --> 00:04:08,109
So be it.

92
00:04:08,590 --> 00:04:11,650
But there wasn't any pressure to say
it needs to be published, it needs to

93
00:04:11,650 --> 00:04:13,400
go international, which has been great.

94
00:04:13,700 --> 00:04:17,839
It was designed to be a PDF that
if somebody reached out to me and

95
00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,509
said, hey, could I, could I pick
your brain about some stories?

96
00:04:20,510 --> 00:04:21,769
What would you do if you were me?

97
00:04:21,979 --> 00:04:25,020
That I could say, here, here's,
here's a couple hours of my time.

98
00:04:25,550 --> 00:04:26,300
Enjoy it.

99
00:04:26,750 --> 00:04:29,520
And as it turned out, a good
friend of mine who wrote a New

100
00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,900
York Times best selling book called
How Google Works, Alan Eagle.

101
00:04:32,900 --> 00:04:36,950
He also wrote The Trillion Dollar
Coach about a very successful

102
00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:38,209
VC out here in the Valley.

103
00:04:38,660 --> 00:04:41,050
He looked at this, this PDF,
and he said, no, no, no.

104
00:04:41,050 --> 00:04:44,740
He's like, you're not putting this on
the Kindle store or something else.

105
00:04:45,310 --> 00:04:47,580
He said, why don't you send
it over to some people I know

106
00:04:47,580 --> 00:04:48,860
in the publishing industry.

107
00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,525
Let them take a look at it and see
Do they think that there is a market?

108
00:04:52,725 --> 00:04:55,225
Yeah, because I clearly had no
perspective sitting behind my little

109
00:04:55,225 --> 00:04:59,664
desks thinking there is and 72 hours
later we had a contract back from Penguin.

110
00:05:00,335 --> 00:05:00,674
Oh, right.

111
00:05:00,734 --> 00:05:02,564
To put it into the book
that you see before you.

112
00:05:02,985 --> 00:05:05,885
But it was very much the spirit that
it went into, it's, uh, all the money

113
00:05:05,885 --> 00:05:09,365
from the book is donated, uh, to
various food pantries around the U.

114
00:05:09,365 --> 00:05:13,404
S., there's not a profit motive, it's
just kind of a sharing motive to say, I've

115
00:05:13,405 --> 00:05:15,114
learned so much from so many other people.

116
00:05:15,174 --> 00:05:15,514
Yeah.

117
00:05:15,765 --> 00:05:18,965
This is just one channel for getting
that information back out to others.

118
00:05:19,205 --> 00:05:20,005
Fantastic.

119
00:05:20,345 --> 00:05:22,875
And I saw on your website
there's like a part two coming.

120
00:05:24,065 --> 00:05:25,145
There is, there is.

121
00:05:25,165 --> 00:05:27,425
I don't think it's going to be
a full book because I can't put

122
00:05:27,425 --> 00:05:29,665
myself back through that yet.

123
00:05:30,075 --> 00:05:30,945
There will be another book.

124
00:05:31,485 --> 00:05:34,534
But instead where it's going is a lot
of people have said, hey, you started

125
00:05:34,534 --> 00:05:39,774
writing the book in 2020 and while
it was designed not to be a flavor of

126
00:05:39,774 --> 00:05:42,765
the month style approach, saying it's
only relevant for a year or two years,

127
00:05:42,775 --> 00:05:45,585
something that's, as a publishing
industry calls it, an evergreen title

128
00:05:45,595 --> 00:05:47,535
for years where the content is relevant.

129
00:05:48,245 --> 00:05:51,675
People have said, Hey, I want to go
a little bit deeper into the data.

130
00:05:51,795 --> 00:05:52,125
Yeah.

131
00:05:52,655 --> 00:05:56,625
I want to go a little bit deeper into how
I apply this specifically to my business.

132
00:05:56,635 --> 00:05:58,665
Give me the step by step guide,
things that wouldn't have been

133
00:05:58,665 --> 00:06:02,505
appropriate for the book so we left
them out, but they're saying, I'm

134
00:06:02,505 --> 00:06:03,805
interested in a little bit more.

135
00:06:03,805 --> 00:06:09,085
And so actually as recently as last
night, uh, I, the microphone's back,

136
00:06:09,105 --> 00:06:11,075
the editing is back and we're actually.

137
00:06:11,349 --> 00:06:14,150
You know, working together with a
small group to piece together even more

138
00:06:14,150 --> 00:06:17,960
content for those people that are really
curious and say, the book is not enough.

139
00:06:18,210 --> 00:06:19,609
Can I get more of this?

140
00:06:19,700 --> 00:06:22,080
And that's going to be kind of a choose
your own adventure approach through

141
00:06:22,099 --> 00:06:25,460
online learning, audio versions and all
that coming a little bit later this year.

142
00:06:25,590 --> 00:06:26,310
Fantastic.

143
00:06:26,450 --> 00:06:27,274
Well, I look forward to it.

144
00:06:27,695 --> 00:06:28,844
I genuinely look forward to it.

145
00:06:28,844 --> 00:06:32,275
It's, um, and hats off to
you, sir, for writing a book.

146
00:06:32,275 --> 00:06:33,905
I mean, I've mentioned
this before on the show.

147
00:06:33,944 --> 00:06:34,624
Listeners will know this.

148
00:06:34,914 --> 00:06:36,335
I've been approached a couple of times.

149
00:06:36,335 --> 00:06:40,575
I've been in a few conversations about
writing a book and it just fills me with

150
00:06:40,594 --> 00:06:44,194
dread, uh, the whole, which is why I
do a podcast because it's a lot easier.

151
00:06:44,204 --> 00:06:46,124
Sure, if it doesn't, there's
something wrong with you.

152
00:06:47,704 --> 00:06:48,524
Everybody with dread.

153
00:06:49,034 --> 00:06:51,064
It's like public speaking,
except amplified for years.

154
00:06:51,144 --> 00:06:51,634
Yeah.

155
00:06:52,354 --> 00:06:53,514
You can never get away with it.

156
00:06:54,054 --> 00:06:54,384
So.

157
00:06:55,075 --> 00:06:56,344
You wrote the book 2020.

158
00:06:56,344 --> 00:07:00,135
You're obviously doing this upgrade and
you know, the world of digital seems to

159
00:07:00,145 --> 00:07:03,434
move forward at a massive rates of knots.

160
00:07:03,554 --> 00:07:07,594
Um, although I mean your book
fundamentally, I mean you, you deal

161
00:07:07,594 --> 00:07:10,394
with data, but you're, you talk a
lot about customer relationships.

162
00:07:10,394 --> 00:07:11,944
You talk a lot about dealing with people.

163
00:07:11,965 --> 00:07:13,424
People aren't linear people.

164
00:07:13,434 --> 00:07:13,835
Do you know what I mean?

165
00:07:13,835 --> 00:07:15,795
Understand the data,
understand your best customers.

166
00:07:16,215 --> 00:07:17,405
And we'll get into a whole bunch of that.

167
00:07:17,405 --> 00:07:17,925
I've no doubt.

168
00:07:20,414 --> 00:07:23,764
So what's changed between the
time you wrote the book and now?

169
00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,530
Um, you know, sort of what are some
of the key things that have changed or

170
00:07:27,530 --> 00:07:31,200
indeed has anything really changed to
the print, the principles, the underlying

171
00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,030
principles, they're still the same.

172
00:07:34,290 --> 00:07:37,279
You know, in going back to the COVID
time, there were a lot of assumptions

173
00:07:37,279 --> 00:07:38,590
about how things would change.

174
00:07:38,630 --> 00:07:41,069
Work from home would become
permanent for everybody.

175
00:07:41,150 --> 00:07:41,490
Yeah.

176
00:07:41,500 --> 00:07:42,850
This would be the way
that we would interact.

177
00:07:42,859 --> 00:07:44,650
People would move away from big cities.

178
00:07:45,050 --> 00:07:47,510
In some cases they have, but
that that would be a permanent

179
00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:49,240
shift, at least here in Americana.

180
00:07:49,940 --> 00:07:53,390
Uh, questions about what industries
would survive versus which ones would

181
00:07:53,390 --> 00:07:58,400
fall, what restaurants would look like,
delivery services being the new preferred

182
00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,200
channel for interacting with commerce.

183
00:08:01,289 --> 00:08:04,270
And what we really see is the more things
change, the more things stay the same.

184
00:08:05,449 --> 00:08:07,709
There are some things that we've
observed that are different.

185
00:08:08,250 --> 00:08:11,340
But by and large, when we look at
consumer patterns, when we look at

186
00:08:11,340 --> 00:08:15,410
how people are working, there are some
remaining parts of COVID that, that

187
00:08:15,410 --> 00:08:18,570
will change and will continue to change,
but still there's those fundamental

188
00:08:18,570 --> 00:08:20,129
human behaviors that are the same.

189
00:08:20,350 --> 00:08:22,969
And actually, it was a good test
to go through and to say, for these

190
00:08:22,979 --> 00:08:26,459
predictions we made pre COVID,
let's take a look at airline.

191
00:08:27,075 --> 00:08:28,595
What happened with lifetime value?

192
00:08:28,595 --> 00:08:29,835
What happened to those relationships?

193
00:08:29,835 --> 00:08:32,345
And what you find generally is
there was some value destroyed.

194
00:08:32,365 --> 00:08:34,455
People weren't traveling for a
span of a couple of years and

195
00:08:34,455 --> 00:08:35,845
that money will not be recovered.

196
00:08:36,524 --> 00:08:39,444
But in most cases, your best
customers pre COVID are still

197
00:08:39,444 --> 00:08:40,964
your best customers post COVID.

198
00:08:40,965 --> 00:08:43,934
The marketing interactions, if you're
focusing on your great customers and

199
00:08:43,934 --> 00:08:47,535
ignoring some of the poor quality ones,
those actions would have been the same.

200
00:08:48,060 --> 00:08:51,590
And so some differences within the
data around how much exactly money we

201
00:08:51,590 --> 00:08:54,850
should make off these people, but by
and large, what you should do remains

202
00:08:54,850 --> 00:08:58,210
the same, which gives you confidence
today, even with something so disruptive.

203
00:08:58,475 --> 00:08:59,825
The principles still apply.

204
00:09:00,555 --> 00:09:02,585
But if you take a step back and
have more of the macro lens, what

205
00:09:02,585 --> 00:09:05,965
you find is companies, I would
say, are more uncertain than ever.

206
00:09:06,885 --> 00:09:10,444
I used to have a playbook and my
time I've spent, uh, someone looked

207
00:09:10,444 --> 00:09:11,925
at my calendar and added it all up.

208
00:09:11,925 --> 00:09:15,914
I've spent over the past decade,
more than 9, 000 hours meeting

209
00:09:15,915 --> 00:09:17,444
with sea levels and boards.

210
00:09:17,925 --> 00:09:20,705
And I can tell you that a large portion of
those meetings were companies that said,

211
00:09:20,715 --> 00:09:24,515
our strategy is to do exactly what we
did last year, assuming it's all working.

212
00:09:25,425 --> 00:09:28,875
Except let's just grow two or three or
five percent or whatever the industry

213
00:09:28,875 --> 00:09:30,785
or Wall Street says we have to grow.

214
00:09:31,715 --> 00:09:32,925
Let's just do that.

215
00:09:33,575 --> 00:09:34,645
And of course there were some waves.

216
00:09:34,645 --> 00:09:37,364
Oh, well, we want to transform
digitally or now we want AI.

217
00:09:37,425 --> 00:09:37,755
Yeah.

218
00:09:37,845 --> 00:09:40,595
But companies generally just
fixate on saying, let's just

219
00:09:40,595 --> 00:09:42,075
keep doing what we were doing.

220
00:09:42,334 --> 00:09:43,484
We want to keep up with things.

221
00:09:43,485 --> 00:09:46,165
We want to modernize things, but
we're not going to undercut the

222
00:09:46,165 --> 00:09:47,575
foundation by which we were built.

223
00:09:48,725 --> 00:09:52,675
And then they come out of COVID and
those predictions no longer apply.

224
00:09:53,814 --> 00:09:55,935
They're not sure which
direction the market is going.

225
00:09:56,515 --> 00:09:58,585
They don't, consumers are
feeling more pressure on prices.

226
00:09:58,585 --> 00:09:59,605
Do they raise their prices?

227
00:09:59,605 --> 00:10:00,915
Do they lower their prices?

228
00:10:01,335 --> 00:10:02,495
Are their customers still there?

229
00:10:02,495 --> 00:10:04,205
What do their customers expect from them?

230
00:10:05,469 --> 00:10:09,219
And there's more openness towards thinking
about different ways to engage with them.

231
00:10:09,930 --> 00:10:13,680
And so what I really see is more general
willingness from companies to consider

232
00:10:13,680 --> 00:10:15,530
their business models in different ways.

233
00:10:15,810 --> 00:10:18,560
To almost use this as a moment to
say, with all this uncertainty,

234
00:10:19,769 --> 00:10:22,280
let's stop planning for what we're
doing over the next week or the

235
00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,720
next month, and let's take a step
back and look at the big picture.

236
00:10:25,159 --> 00:10:28,049
How do we want to approach
these changes as a business?

237
00:10:28,779 --> 00:10:32,389
And I would think, my hypothesis here
is that it's driven by the fact that

238
00:10:33,505 --> 00:10:37,095
Companies don't believe things are
going to return entirely to normal

239
00:10:37,095 --> 00:10:40,175
for their customer base and that this
isn't something that they can wait out.

240
00:10:40,795 --> 00:10:43,465
Before it was an idea, let's just
wait out this inflation and everything

241
00:10:43,465 --> 00:10:44,705
will be back to the way it was.

242
00:10:45,425 --> 00:10:46,395
But that's not the case.

243
00:10:46,805 --> 00:10:47,875
Their customers are still there.

244
00:10:47,875 --> 00:10:50,085
Their high value customers
are still around.

245
00:10:51,194 --> 00:10:53,484
But they're trying to think about
how they communicate with them.

246
00:10:53,844 --> 00:10:55,974
What that relationship looks
like and how they drive value.

247
00:10:55,984 --> 00:10:57,334
For some, it's a risk.

248
00:10:58,124 --> 00:11:00,555
We want to be as conservative as
possible, save as much cash as

249
00:11:00,555 --> 00:11:01,954
possible, and still wait it out.

250
00:11:02,295 --> 00:11:06,204
Others say, while the competition
is doing that, now is my chance to

251
00:11:06,204 --> 00:11:08,635
excel and do something different.

252
00:11:08,964 --> 00:11:09,905
The world is unsettled.

253
00:11:10,304 --> 00:11:11,845
Some companies will rise, some will fall.

254
00:11:12,535 --> 00:11:15,204
Every organization has to figure out
where they want to be in that spectrum.

255
00:11:16,314 --> 00:11:20,948
Super powerful and it's fascinating and
I mean in life generally without getting

256
00:11:20,948 --> 00:11:25,044
too philosophical you know there are
definite seasons aren't there there are

257
00:11:25,045 --> 00:11:28,944
definite things that you know there are
ups and there are downs and the economy

258
00:11:28,944 --> 00:11:34,135
is in you know the downturn it's sort
of down season um and you can you can

259
00:11:34,135 --> 00:11:38,450
do things that cause you to rise And,
and emerge stronger from this, you know,

260
00:11:38,460 --> 00:11:42,210
because I think a lot of people are being
uber conservative at the moment, um,

261
00:11:42,230 --> 00:11:45,079
especially with their cash, especially
with interest rates being the way they

262
00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:50,360
are, the cost of money is in effect gone
up, um, it's, it's not as, it's not as

263
00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,450
easy to go and get people to just say,
oh, I'll give you, you know, a million

264
00:11:53,450 --> 00:11:56,750
bucks to go and do customer acquisition as
it was, because, well, hang on a minute,

265
00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:58,840
there's a little, there's a, you know,
I've got a little bit of hesitation.

266
00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:00,580
You may need that million at some point.

267
00:12:01,630 --> 00:12:05,599
You want to spend a million or if
revenues drop and marketing's always been.

268
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,670
This ties it all together with the book.

269
00:12:09,470 --> 00:12:13,000
Marketing generally for a lot of large
companies is a percentage of revenue.

270
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,170
We can only spend 8 or 10 percent.

271
00:12:15,179 --> 00:12:17,160
Anything more, that explains
why we're doing great in

272
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:18,119
sales and we can't have that.

273
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,510
This is how they benchmark
themselves, for better or worse.

274
00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:23,369
And then they come back and they
say, well, wait a minute, we need

275
00:12:23,369 --> 00:12:25,840
to cut budgets because maybe revenue
growth is slowing a little bit.

276
00:12:27,070 --> 00:12:28,980
And they'll just cut and they'll
say, well, marketing has to be cut.

277
00:12:29,035 --> 00:12:31,145
By 10%.

278
00:12:31,425 --> 00:12:31,725
Yeah.

279
00:12:32,084 --> 00:12:34,754
And what's odd to me about it is
that they cut that 10 percent from

280
00:12:34,754 --> 00:12:37,324
their best customers as well as
they do their worst customers.

281
00:12:38,635 --> 00:12:38,875
Yeah.

282
00:12:38,935 --> 00:12:39,334
So wait a minute.

283
00:12:39,355 --> 00:12:41,494
So you're going to market less to
the people that are going to drive

284
00:12:41,494 --> 00:12:43,385
60, 70, 80 percent of your revenue.

285
00:12:44,495 --> 00:12:45,335
Why would that make sense?

286
00:12:45,344 --> 00:12:46,515
Why would you not market less?

287
00:12:46,985 --> 00:12:48,975
To the customers, you know,
aren't going to buy that are going

288
00:12:48,975 --> 00:12:50,165
to be hard cases to win over.

289
00:12:50,705 --> 00:12:52,085
And this is where it all comes together.

290
00:12:52,085 --> 00:12:53,645
Companies say, because I
don't know the difference.

291
00:12:54,735 --> 00:12:57,475
I know how many times somebody bought
from me, but I haven't put that together

292
00:12:57,475 --> 00:13:01,555
into, into a model or a prediction that
says that this relationship will last

293
00:13:01,575 --> 00:13:04,395
and that I need these people and that I
need to continue to message these people.

294
00:13:05,044 --> 00:13:08,655
And so, I just go across the board
because everybody looks the same to me.

295
00:13:09,065 --> 00:13:11,815
And that was really what the core
of the book was, just determining

296
00:13:12,165 --> 00:13:13,765
who are your best relationships.

297
00:13:14,510 --> 00:13:16,430
Who should you spend a
little bit less time on?

298
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,099
And now those lessons are
even more relevant than ever.

299
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,020
Yeah, I they are.

300
00:13:21,020 --> 00:13:22,640
And it's, it's an
interesting one, isn't it?

301
00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,790
I, again, like you say, this was the
core message of the book or one of the

302
00:13:25,790 --> 00:13:27,170
core messages that came through to me.

303
00:13:27,170 --> 00:13:28,969
Now hopefully this is what you intended.

304
00:13:28,969 --> 00:13:32,120
'cause I'm not, you know,
I'm, I, I'm not always right.

305
00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:32,810
I appreciate that.

306
00:13:32,810 --> 00:13:33,319
But for me, I mean,

307
00:13:33,319 --> 00:13:34,280
no right or wrong answers.

308
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:35,479
That's part of the fun
of the book is that it's

309
00:13:35,479 --> 00:13:35,660
Yeah.

310
00:13:35,660 --> 00:13:35,900
Yeah.

311
00:13:35,900 --> 00:13:37,670
Everyone gets to view
it through their lens

312
00:13:37,699 --> 00:13:38,150
Absolutely.

313
00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:38,495
And through their business.

314
00:13:38,689 --> 00:13:43,330
And so for me, one of the
things that came out, um, was.

315
00:13:44,185 --> 00:13:48,145
Uh, what did you call it at that sub
summit, the romantic persona, the belief

316
00:13:48,155 --> 00:13:53,265
that, uh, we can make all customers
like us, um, and that all customers

317
00:13:53,265 --> 00:13:57,215
are the same, just given enough time
and energy, uh, and again, in the book,

318
00:13:57,215 --> 00:14:00,905
it's very much a case of, and it's an
obvious statement to make, I think,

319
00:14:01,104 --> 00:14:04,465
Neil, you know, it's, this is, and no
disrespect, it's not rocket science.

320
00:14:04,465 --> 00:14:05,995
It's not like this is some new revelation.

321
00:14:06,245 --> 00:14:07,915
Not all customers are equal, you know.

322
00:14:08,515 --> 00:14:11,945
Um, and you, you give a, you sort of
break customers down in the book, don't

323
00:14:11,945 --> 00:14:15,485
you, into sort of the percentiles,
the sort of the five percentiles.

324
00:14:16,845 --> 00:14:21,885
And so the premise is treat your
best customers with a little bit

325
00:14:21,885 --> 00:14:26,325
more, you know, and think about those
and don't worry too much about the

326
00:14:26,334 --> 00:14:27,975
customers at the, at the other end.

327
00:14:28,045 --> 00:14:31,455
But so often in eCommerce, especially,
we treat every customer the same.

328
00:14:31,455 --> 00:14:34,844
We send them all the same
email, uh, the advertising.

329
00:14:35,255 --> 00:14:37,704
We spend across the board is exactly that.

330
00:14:37,704 --> 00:14:38,535
It's across the board.

331
00:14:39,124 --> 00:14:41,015
So why do you think we do that?

332
00:14:43,095 --> 00:14:45,115
Because of where eCommerce
metrics came from.

333
00:14:45,115 --> 00:14:49,014
I mean, if you go back, and this is
really going back 15, 20 years, it's

334
00:14:49,014 --> 00:14:50,814
in the early analytics platforms.

335
00:14:51,365 --> 00:14:54,785
Urchin was the one that eventually became
Google Analytics through an acquisition.

336
00:14:55,615 --> 00:14:57,295
They captured data that they had.

337
00:14:57,995 --> 00:14:59,345
Not data that told a story.

338
00:14:59,345 --> 00:15:01,485
We can measure how many seconds
somebody's on a web page.

339
00:15:01,515 --> 00:15:02,975
We will surface that metric.

340
00:15:03,295 --> 00:15:05,915
How many times somebody clicks on
this button, we will give them that.

341
00:15:06,015 --> 00:15:07,804
How many times somebody
orders, we will give them that.

342
00:15:07,995 --> 00:15:09,585
It didn't start from a business lens.

343
00:15:10,105 --> 00:15:12,365
Let's figure out how many customers
they have and how valuable they are.

344
00:15:12,365 --> 00:15:16,754
It simply said we have this data
and it left this nascent industry to

345
00:15:16,755 --> 00:15:20,165
kind of figure out, well, what does
it mean and how do we craft a story?

346
00:15:20,875 --> 00:15:24,765
And they did the best they could at that
time, but unfortunately it didn't become

347
00:15:24,765 --> 00:15:26,015
something that continued to evolve.

348
00:15:26,015 --> 00:15:27,825
It became something that became gospel.

349
00:15:28,175 --> 00:15:31,314
This is the way we will look at the world.

350
00:15:32,165 --> 00:15:35,194
And those habits are hard to
change through industries and

351
00:15:35,194 --> 00:15:38,334
companies that built their entire
business on those metrics because

352
00:15:38,335 --> 00:15:40,045
that's what they've grown to love.

353
00:15:40,885 --> 00:15:43,955
But then they struggle when they
see entrepreneurial companies.

354
00:15:44,270 --> 00:15:46,420
Who can look at it from a fresh lens?

355
00:15:47,070 --> 00:15:49,230
Let's say I'm not going to
target the number, a total number

356
00:15:49,230 --> 00:15:50,630
of orders like my competitor.

357
00:15:51,069 --> 00:15:53,510
I'm going to target the best customers
and all of a sudden the best customers

358
00:15:53,510 --> 00:15:57,089
in that industry I'm thinking about
Amazon here feel that love that they

359
00:15:57,090 --> 00:16:00,220
didn't feel when they were treated like
a commodity product by the competitors.

360
00:16:00,269 --> 00:16:03,199
Yeah, and then they gravitate
towards that direction and that's

361
00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,720
what moves industries over.

362
00:16:06,500 --> 00:16:09,909
Now, to give a little bit of a sense
of calm for, for everybody that's

363
00:16:09,909 --> 00:16:12,240
listening to this, you mentioned
before something that's interesting.

364
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,119
You said, well, this isn't rocket science
and, and it reminds me of a story.

365
00:16:16,119 --> 00:16:19,900
This wasn't included in the
book, but, um, there was a, a, a

366
00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:21,360
person I met in, inside Google.

367
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,760
We have a whole bunch of interesting
people with interesting backgrounds

368
00:16:23,900 --> 00:16:27,579
and some of our technical services
team reached out one time and he

369
00:16:27,579 --> 00:16:31,079
wanted just to have, um, he wanted
just to have lunch with me and you

370
00:16:31,079 --> 00:16:33,249
go into LinkedIn profiles cause you
want to see who this person came from.

371
00:16:33,249 --> 00:16:36,219
And this person came, uh,
with a PhD in physics.

372
00:16:37,069 --> 00:16:41,000
So he's reading through his paper,
literal rocket scientist, and now

373
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,600
he's at Google doing data integration.

374
00:16:43,850 --> 00:16:47,010
So when I sat down with him, I had to ask
the obvious question, maybe this wasn't

375
00:16:47,010 --> 00:16:49,939
the most elegant way to frame it, but
I said, look, you're a rocket scientist

376
00:16:50,260 --> 00:16:52,929
that now gets people to click on pictures.

377
00:16:52,959 --> 00:16:53,930
Explain this to me.

378
00:16:54,809 --> 00:16:55,519
What's the story?

379
00:16:56,469 --> 00:16:58,589
And he actually commented, and I
think he was right on this, where

380
00:16:58,589 --> 00:17:01,215
he said, Advertising is harder.

381
00:17:02,275 --> 00:17:02,775
Wow.

382
00:17:02,915 --> 00:17:05,185
There's constants in
rocket science, right?

383
00:17:05,185 --> 00:17:07,385
And you'll teach us at a
hundred level university course.

384
00:17:07,855 --> 00:17:09,115
Gravity is a constant.

385
00:17:09,355 --> 00:17:11,025
Mass is hopefully a constant.

386
00:17:11,505 --> 00:17:13,904
You can figure those two out and
say, look, you tell me how high

387
00:17:13,904 --> 00:17:14,834
you need something in orbit.

388
00:17:14,835 --> 00:17:16,835
And I can tell you how much
energy you need to push.

389
00:17:18,075 --> 00:17:20,815
You get to those fundamentals,
but try to say, well, how many

390
00:17:20,844 --> 00:17:23,084
clicks do you need someone to
make until they're ready to buy?

391
00:17:24,214 --> 00:17:25,274
And is that a constant?

392
00:17:25,305 --> 00:17:27,425
No, it's going to change
every day with every message,

393
00:17:27,425 --> 00:17:28,774
product, price, and promotion.

394
00:17:29,395 --> 00:17:33,005
And the interesting part, from an outside
lens, was somebody looking at it to say, I

395
00:17:33,005 --> 00:17:36,554
don't know why marketers feel embarrassed
that they don't have this answer.

396
00:17:37,605 --> 00:17:39,704
Now they come in and a CFO pushes
them and says, you don't know

397
00:17:39,704 --> 00:17:41,625
exactly how much this is worth.

398
00:17:41,715 --> 00:17:42,065
Yeah.

399
00:17:42,324 --> 00:17:44,084
And you kind of look at it, and
it's like, nobody knows this.

400
00:17:44,084 --> 00:17:46,015
And marketers are like, oh,
sorry, we'll try harder.

401
00:17:46,835 --> 00:17:49,405
And he almost has this lens,
which is to be like, no, you get

402
00:17:49,405 --> 00:17:52,295
in there and be like, do you know
how difficult my job actually is?

403
00:17:53,405 --> 00:17:56,885
And this is grounded by the way, not
just on speculation, but a research

404
00:17:56,895 --> 00:18:00,004
paper that came out earlier this
year that looked at to say, well,

405
00:18:00,004 --> 00:18:03,814
why for some companies do CEOs have a
difficult time investing in marketing?

406
00:18:04,735 --> 00:18:06,794
Is it that they look at
marketing as an expense?

407
00:18:07,514 --> 00:18:09,965
And no, the the actual answer
was they looked at marketing

408
00:18:09,965 --> 00:18:11,584
as being easier than it was.

409
00:18:12,575 --> 00:18:15,394
They didn't know how difficult
it was to build a brand and

410
00:18:15,394 --> 00:18:16,845
to connect with customers.

411
00:18:17,405 --> 00:18:20,295
They thought it was, you flip a switch,
turn on the switch, we reach more

412
00:18:20,295 --> 00:18:22,135
customers, turn it off, we reach fewer.

413
00:18:22,575 --> 00:18:23,285
Build a brand?

414
00:18:23,365 --> 00:18:25,225
Well, you spend on brand,
and the brand appears.

415
00:18:25,785 --> 00:18:28,284
They didn't think about all
how those accumulated actions,

416
00:18:28,295 --> 00:18:31,275
building those customer
relationships, compound over time.

417
00:18:31,715 --> 00:18:34,005
And for the companies and the
people that can master those

418
00:18:34,015 --> 00:18:35,464
interactions, that can be great.

419
00:18:35,714 --> 00:18:38,215
Let's call them digital
people persons, alright?

420
00:18:38,435 --> 00:18:40,115
I can interact with these people
and build these relationships,

421
00:18:40,125 --> 00:18:41,794
how valuable those traits are.

422
00:18:42,405 --> 00:18:46,375
And so in their mind, marketing was simple
because marketers try to make it simple.

423
00:18:47,125 --> 00:18:49,765
And so for anyone listening here that
thinks, wow, this is really complicated.

424
00:18:49,765 --> 00:18:51,255
No, nobody has an answer for this.

425
00:18:51,265 --> 00:18:52,785
Nobody has a perfect formula.

426
00:18:53,335 --> 00:18:55,564
And for those small business
owners, what they have is something

427
00:18:55,564 --> 00:18:57,314
very special and very valuable.

428
00:18:58,205 --> 00:19:00,764
You have the ability to take
a step back and really reflect

429
00:19:00,764 --> 00:19:02,024
on who their customers are.

430
00:19:02,625 --> 00:19:05,324
They're not buried inside a large
organization where they'll never

431
00:19:05,324 --> 00:19:07,465
talk to these people, where they
have millions of people that

432
00:19:07,465 --> 00:19:08,715
they can treat like a commodity.

433
00:19:09,084 --> 00:19:12,144
Oftentimes, small business owners will
be directly into the numbers, will

434
00:19:12,144 --> 00:19:13,694
be contacting customers themselves.

435
00:19:13,705 --> 00:19:17,524
Sometimes they get postcards handwritten
by owners because they take that pride.

436
00:19:17,524 --> 00:19:21,455
So, in effect, for all the money
and resources large organizations

437
00:19:21,455 --> 00:19:24,990
have, It just separates them further
and further from the thing that

438
00:19:24,990 --> 00:19:26,580
matters most, their customers.

439
00:19:27,700 --> 00:19:30,730
And I would take that small business
angle any day of the week because they're

440
00:19:30,730 --> 00:19:31,730
starting from that point of goodness.

441
00:19:31,730 --> 00:19:36,309
Just, I always worry when they aspire
to be like a large corporation, be like,

442
00:19:36,309 --> 00:19:39,029
I'm going to grind through all this
data and have thousands of metrics.

443
00:19:39,690 --> 00:19:42,814
No, take a step back and stay as
close as you can to those people.

444
00:19:42,995 --> 00:19:45,385
Yeah, that's super powerful advice.

445
00:19:45,385 --> 00:19:50,245
I think it's interesting, uh, the small
business advantage isn't it, is, um,

446
00:19:50,445 --> 00:19:54,455
the analogy I've always been given
is small businesses like riding in a

447
00:19:54,455 --> 00:19:57,905
speedboat, whereas the log Corp, large
corporates is like a big cruise liner.

448
00:19:57,905 --> 00:20:02,035
You know, the speedboat can, you
know, is much more nimble and can

449
00:20:02,035 --> 00:20:04,015
adapt and et cetera, et cetera.

450
00:20:04,015 --> 00:20:06,025
No, the analogy falls down.

451
00:20:06,025 --> 00:20:07,675
I appreciate that if you push it too far.

452
00:20:07,675 --> 00:20:10,265
But the, the advantage.

453
00:20:10,889 --> 00:20:14,090
The, the small, like the
small eCommerce business.

454
00:20:14,490 --> 00:20:18,219
Um, I often get asked, how
do I compete with Amazon?

455
00:20:18,629 --> 00:20:18,950
Right.

456
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:20,830
So I'm, I'm, I'm here.

457
00:20:20,830 --> 00:20:23,930
I've got, you know, I'm turning over a
couple of hundred grand a year, and then

458
00:20:23,930 --> 00:20:27,550
there's Amazon doing whatever Amazon,
everything just sort of gets lumped

459
00:20:27,570 --> 00:20:28,529
under the Amazon name, doesn't it?

460
00:20:28,789 --> 00:20:30,229
How do I compete with Amazon?

461
00:20:30,910 --> 00:20:31,430
And I think.

462
00:20:32,620 --> 00:20:36,850
The relationship with your customer
and understanding your customer in a

463
00:20:36,850 --> 00:20:41,750
unique way and sort of understanding
their story strikes me as still

464
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,749
perhaps the biggest and best way
to compete for want of a better

465
00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:47,050
expression with the likes of Amazon.

466
00:20:47,269 --> 00:20:48,050
Would that be right?

467
00:20:48,659 --> 00:20:49,239
Absolutely.

468
00:20:49,459 --> 00:20:52,570
In fact, I'll give you one of my favorite
personal case studies and this goes

469
00:20:52,580 --> 00:20:55,989
back several years ago but there was a
website and they're still around today.

470
00:20:55,989 --> 00:20:57,280
They're a great e commerce retailer.

471
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,300
You could probably imagine what they do,
although I don't think they ship abroad.

472
00:21:00,300 --> 00:21:01,999
They're, they're very
popular here domestically.

473
00:21:02,369 --> 00:21:04,059
bodybuilding.com.

474
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:04,479
Okay.

475
00:21:05,090 --> 00:21:05,850
I love this company.

476
00:21:05,850 --> 00:21:08,509
You can probably take a guess as to
what they do in the eCommerce space.

477
00:21:08,779 --> 00:21:13,040
They sell nutritional supplements,
proteins, amino acids, vitamins, all that.

478
00:21:13,605 --> 00:21:16,385
And back in the day, the way that
I would summarize their business

479
00:21:16,385 --> 00:21:17,655
model was very straightforward.

480
00:21:18,114 --> 00:21:20,874
They sold the same products
at Amazon, as Amazon, but cost

481
00:21:20,874 --> 00:21:21,985
more and took longer to ship.

482
00:21:23,195 --> 00:21:24,504
It's not a great way to win, but yeah.

483
00:21:25,354 --> 00:21:26,594
You're thinking about
that in that question.

484
00:21:26,705 --> 00:21:31,324
How, to your point earlier, how do
they possibly compete with Amazon?

485
00:21:32,250 --> 00:21:33,870
Now let's look at it from a customer lens.

486
00:21:33,870 --> 00:21:37,399
Let's get away from all the data that
Amazon has and all the money Amazon has.

487
00:21:37,429 --> 00:21:39,240
They have their own
planes to deliver stuff.

488
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,219
We may only have FedEx to rely on.

489
00:21:42,889 --> 00:21:45,429
But if you think about the Amazon
customer experience and you go to

490
00:21:45,429 --> 00:21:50,979
their website and you type in protein
powders, you get 50, 000 plus results.

491
00:21:51,329 --> 00:21:55,019
Every product claiming to be better than
every other product, having thousands

492
00:21:55,019 --> 00:21:56,769
of reviews, all four stars or higher.

493
00:21:57,189 --> 00:22:00,244
And as a consumer how
do you make a decision?

494
00:22:01,044 --> 00:22:05,335
When you're overwhelmed by so much choice,
now they probably realize the same thing,

495
00:22:05,335 --> 00:22:07,795
but I talked to that team and I said,
well, how did you sort through this?

496
00:22:07,795 --> 00:22:09,725
And they said, it was actually
a little bit serendipitous.

497
00:22:10,324 --> 00:22:13,915
One of our, one of our vendors
came to us and said, I have a new

498
00:22:13,925 --> 00:22:15,274
product coming into the market.

499
00:22:15,634 --> 00:22:16,955
Can I educate consumers?

500
00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:21,260
All right, so they said they gave him a
couple bucks and they hired somebody to

501
00:22:21,260 --> 00:22:25,689
write a bunch of content, not to sell
the product, but to educate consumers

502
00:22:25,689 --> 00:22:27,699
about how to make a better decision.

503
00:22:27,979 --> 00:22:30,299
Filling in that gap that
Amazon doesn't provide.

504
00:22:30,300 --> 00:22:33,270
Amazon is great if you
know what you want to buy.

505
00:22:34,379 --> 00:22:38,280
But if you really are looking even
for a TV, here are a million TVs.

506
00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:39,690
What is important to me?

507
00:22:40,740 --> 00:22:43,480
Most likely you're not going to
Amazon to make that determination.

508
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,409
You go to Amazon when you're ready
to buy and you have that price.

509
00:22:45,419 --> 00:22:48,290
You will go to Consumer Reports,
maybe the New York Times and

510
00:22:48,290 --> 00:22:49,409
say, what do you recommend?

511
00:22:49,409 --> 00:22:50,840
Because Amazon's not going to tell me.

512
00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:55,399
That was a niche that bodybuilding.com
filled was that from that one article,

513
00:22:55,399 --> 00:22:59,840
I heard they had as many as 80 people at
one time writing content, not designed to

514
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,270
push people for sale, but to say how we're
going to build this relationship with you.

515
00:23:03,805 --> 00:23:07,355
It's by building a community first,
by educating you, by doing what

516
00:23:07,355 --> 00:23:10,885
our competitors don't do, which is
treating you like a person, helping

517
00:23:10,885 --> 00:23:14,075
you learn about the product and the
space, knowing that when it comes time

518
00:23:14,075 --> 00:23:17,454
to purchase, we're pretty confident
that you're going to stay in this

519
00:23:17,475 --> 00:23:19,214
community and give us your business.

520
00:23:19,985 --> 00:23:22,225
Because we're working towards
it, and that's how they built it.

521
00:23:22,395 --> 00:23:24,755
They built a community, and when
you saw their customer journey,

522
00:23:25,155 --> 00:23:28,165
typically in eCommerce, you
see three or four interactions.

523
00:23:28,175 --> 00:23:29,475
Get somebody in, somebody buys.

524
00:23:30,605 --> 00:23:34,905
Not only was their journey a lot longer,
which meant that they had five, ten times

525
00:23:34,915 --> 00:23:36,845
more interactions with their customers.

526
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,010
But they also were coming
through organically.

527
00:23:41,210 --> 00:23:42,390
They were searching for content.

528
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:43,300
They weren't searching for the name.

529
00:23:43,300 --> 00:23:44,340
They didn't have that brand yet.

530
00:23:44,670 --> 00:23:47,390
But they had unique content
that other people didn't have.

531
00:23:47,390 --> 00:23:51,080
And oddly enough, after that transaction
was completed, where we would walk away,

532
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:52,560
you know that thank you page on Amazon.

533
00:23:52,759 --> 00:23:54,380
Alright, here, you gave us your money.

534
00:23:54,459 --> 00:23:56,320
Here's a confirmation
number you won't write down.

535
00:23:56,350 --> 00:23:56,929
Off you go.

536
00:23:58,225 --> 00:24:00,925
They actually found that their
customers were willing to continue

537
00:24:00,925 --> 00:24:05,795
to engage with them to continue
learning more even between orders.

538
00:24:05,805 --> 00:24:08,905
So instead of having this weird sporadic
thing where every six months they

539
00:24:08,905 --> 00:24:13,744
see their customers, their customers
were coming back every day to engage

540
00:24:13,745 --> 00:24:15,324
with their brand and their community.

541
00:24:16,004 --> 00:24:19,895
And all it took was a differing point of
view to say, yeah, we see value in this.

542
00:24:19,965 --> 00:24:22,064
Even if customers aren't
buying right away, we want

543
00:24:22,064 --> 00:24:22,915
to connect with these people.

544
00:24:22,915 --> 00:24:24,004
We want to build their trust.

545
00:24:24,004 --> 00:24:25,165
We want to earn their business.

546
00:24:25,614 --> 00:24:27,804
And that's how we're going
to compete against Amazon.

547
00:24:28,854 --> 00:24:29,454
Simple as that.

548
00:24:30,115 --> 00:24:30,834
Fantastic.

549
00:24:31,294 --> 00:24:32,875
I love the story.

550
00:24:33,064 --> 00:24:36,924
And I'll check out bodybuilding.com
because I've not, full disclosure,

551
00:24:36,924 --> 00:24:38,094
I've not shopped on that website.

552
00:24:38,514 --> 00:24:43,244
Uh, as you can probably tell from the
video, if you're watching, uh, but, um,

553
00:24:43,344 --> 00:24:46,374
yeah, that it makes sense, doesn't it?

554
00:24:46,975 --> 00:24:48,235
This is how you do it.

555
00:24:48,245 --> 00:24:49,905
This is how you compete well.

556
00:24:49,905 --> 00:24:52,485
You know your customer, you
educate them, you form a

557
00:24:52,504 --> 00:24:53,915
community relationship with them.

558
00:24:54,875 --> 00:25:00,014
I guess if I'm starting out an
eCommerce, or if I'm sort of a young

559
00:25:00,025 --> 00:25:03,394
eCommerce business where I feel
like I'm rushing around, we have

560
00:25:03,394 --> 00:25:06,695
this expression in England, I'm
rushing around like a blue arse fly.

561
00:25:06,695 --> 00:25:09,425
Just basically means I'm, you know,
I'm just, I'm all over the place.

562
00:25:12,490 --> 00:25:17,719
How do I approach this idea then
of building the relationship,

563
00:25:17,740 --> 00:25:19,030
building this community?

564
00:25:19,370 --> 00:25:24,250
Um, because I, I, I, just from
various conversations I have with

565
00:25:24,250 --> 00:25:26,049
people, it feels like overwhelm.

566
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:27,510
It's just another thing to do.

567
00:25:27,510 --> 00:25:28,290
Do you know what I mean?

568
00:25:28,290 --> 00:25:28,740
And so

569
00:25:29,099 --> 00:25:30,139
it's a lot, it's a lot.

570
00:25:30,179 --> 00:25:32,770
And as a small business owner,
you're wearing multiple hats.

571
00:25:32,770 --> 00:25:35,550
Marketing is one thing that you have
to do through the course of the day.

572
00:25:36,655 --> 00:25:38,435
Here's, I would give two pieces of advice.

573
00:25:39,065 --> 00:25:43,254
One is, remember the goal is to
be better, not to be perfect.

574
00:25:44,335 --> 00:25:47,875
Now in a marketing area that I
live in, we live in auctions where

575
00:25:47,914 --> 00:25:50,795
people are not rewarded with the
top position in the auction because

576
00:25:50,824 --> 00:25:52,764
they have the best information.

577
00:25:53,365 --> 00:25:56,134
They're rewarded because they have
better information than everybody else.

578
00:25:56,844 --> 00:26:00,055
And so the goal is always just to be
incrementally better than the other small

579
00:26:00,055 --> 00:26:01,455
businesses that you're competing with.

580
00:26:01,465 --> 00:26:03,495
To be better to your customers.

581
00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:07,140
And that's a gradual process,
but I always look at it as a term

582
00:26:07,140 --> 00:26:10,080
goes, 1 percent improvement every
day is better than sitting around

583
00:26:10,090 --> 00:26:12,490
for a year, two years, trying to
figure out how to get to a hundred.

584
00:26:12,510 --> 00:26:13,830
I don't think anybody
can get to a hundred.

585
00:26:13,830 --> 00:26:17,400
So sometimes I always follow that rule
to say, is it better for my business?

586
00:26:17,580 --> 00:26:19,040
Did I change my business
for the better today?

587
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:19,960
And that's enough for me.

588
00:26:20,590 --> 00:26:23,649
The second is when we think about,
you know, businesses as a whole,

589
00:26:23,650 --> 00:26:26,790
here's something interesting
that, um, I think Silicon Valley

590
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:28,220
honestly has lost over the years.

591
00:26:28,770 --> 00:26:30,690
Uh, one of the more popular.

592
00:26:31,149 --> 00:26:35,690
Uh, terms around here, especially with
business models is all about scale, right?

593
00:26:35,690 --> 00:26:38,620
How do you take this and scale
it out to a billion people?

594
00:26:38,899 --> 00:26:39,670
It's a great idea.

595
00:26:40,330 --> 00:26:44,840
And often lost in there is, is because
of a great compromise, which is, well,

596
00:26:45,090 --> 00:26:47,959
we can't write individual content
for a billion products, so we won't

597
00:26:47,959 --> 00:26:52,489
write individual content and we can't
service customers one to one, so we'll

598
00:26:52,489 --> 00:26:54,820
introduce chatbots, which are miserable.

599
00:26:54,995 --> 00:26:56,555
But, but then we can
reach a billion people.

600
00:26:56,895 --> 00:27:00,935
And there's this great compromise to
say, in order to reach everybody, these

601
00:27:00,935 --> 00:27:02,135
are all the things we can and can't do.

602
00:27:03,635 --> 00:27:06,005
And I was talking to a restaurant
owner in New York City.

603
00:27:06,804 --> 00:27:08,114
And I was like, what
does scale mean to you?

604
00:27:08,115 --> 00:27:09,355
And he said, here's what scale means.

605
00:27:09,355 --> 00:27:10,514
And this is where we find success.

606
00:27:10,514 --> 00:27:12,775
And he's been very successful
over the course of his career.

607
00:27:13,334 --> 00:27:16,334
He says, I look at what an
experience could be if I was

608
00:27:16,334 --> 00:27:19,375
the only person working in that
restaurant and one customer came in.

609
00:27:19,805 --> 00:27:22,775
And they were the only customer I was
going to see that day and how great I

610
00:27:22,775 --> 00:27:23,855
could make that experience for them.

611
00:27:23,875 --> 00:27:26,075
I could learn who they
were, what they wanted.

612
00:27:26,075 --> 00:27:27,245
I could prepare food for them.

613
00:27:28,835 --> 00:27:30,315
And then a second customer comes in.

614
00:27:31,074 --> 00:27:34,664
Now how do I make sure that both customers
receive the same great experience,

615
00:27:34,675 --> 00:27:36,215
the best I can possibly deliver?

616
00:27:36,324 --> 00:27:39,365
And then how do I do that
for five or for 10 or for 50?

617
00:27:40,225 --> 00:27:43,505
And effectively it's letting your
values of what great looks like

618
00:27:43,505 --> 00:27:45,025
of the business you want to build.

619
00:27:45,580 --> 00:27:47,510
Drive more than the technology.

620
00:27:48,219 --> 00:27:49,529
It's not saying, Oh, I
can build a chat bot.

621
00:27:49,629 --> 00:27:50,959
I don't need to talk to my customers.

622
00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:52,389
I can give them a QR code.

623
00:27:52,389 --> 00:27:53,669
I don't need to print menus.

624
00:27:54,169 --> 00:27:56,209
It's saying really what's the
experience you want to deliver

625
00:27:56,209 --> 00:27:59,830
and being uncompromising in
getting that to your customers.

626
00:28:00,100 --> 00:28:02,640
Whereas other companies are simply
saying, what's the cheapest way

627
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:03,830
to service millions of people.

628
00:28:04,810 --> 00:28:07,129
Because customers feel that way,
and that's a unique advantage

629
00:28:07,129 --> 00:28:09,440
of small businesses, is that
they can look at that lens.

630
00:28:09,879 --> 00:28:11,870
Whereas other businesses,
you realize how you feel.

631
00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:13,750
I'm a number, right?

632
00:28:13,750 --> 00:28:14,880
I'm a CRM ID.

633
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,290
I'm a loyalty program number.

634
00:28:16,290 --> 00:28:18,219
They have no idea who I am or what I want.

635
00:28:19,159 --> 00:28:21,829
Once a company is able to do that, and
just to give them a little bit more

636
00:28:21,829 --> 00:28:24,879
attention and learn who they are and
what their interests are, to personalize

637
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:26,990
to their needs, it's a lot better.

638
00:28:27,230 --> 00:28:27,470
Yeah.

639
00:28:27,470 --> 00:28:29,260
So I love one of the
companies out here, Chewy.

640
00:28:29,810 --> 00:28:33,010
They send handwritten cards
to their, their customers.

641
00:28:33,820 --> 00:28:36,260
And at first I got this and
I thought this exact question

642
00:28:36,260 --> 00:28:37,290
from a Silicon Valley mindset.

643
00:28:37,290 --> 00:28:39,300
I'm like, how the hell does this scale?

644
00:28:40,039 --> 00:28:41,209
I'm like, you can't possibly do it.

645
00:28:41,210 --> 00:28:45,190
And you start thinking from a technology
lens, you're like, they must be printing

646
00:28:45,190 --> 00:28:46,650
all these cards and handwriting, right?

647
00:28:46,650 --> 00:28:47,799
So you're holding it up to the light.

648
00:28:47,799 --> 00:28:50,450
You're like, do I think somebody
actually read it and wrote this card?

649
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,389
And then you, you start Googling it and
people have all these conspiracy theories.

650
00:28:54,399 --> 00:28:57,220
They're like, and someone actually pointed
out, you know, here's a machine that holds

651
00:28:57,220 --> 00:28:59,799
a real pen and will draw on handwriting.

652
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,820
And so I reached out, I reached out
to Chewy and I said, you have to

653
00:29:03,820 --> 00:29:05,349
explain to me, how does this work?

654
00:29:06,060 --> 00:29:07,199
And they said, here's how it works.

655
00:29:07,609 --> 00:29:11,139
Everybody in the organization, all
the way up to the CEO has a certain

656
00:29:11,149 --> 00:29:14,040
amount of time every week where
they write cards to our customers.

657
00:29:16,060 --> 00:29:17,580
I was like, how do you prove the ROI?

658
00:29:17,929 --> 00:29:19,310
They're like, we don't know.

659
00:29:19,740 --> 00:29:24,360
We just know that our customers love
it and it connects with our customers.

660
00:29:25,439 --> 00:29:25,750
Right?

661
00:29:25,830 --> 00:29:28,409
Sometimes art comes before the science.

662
00:29:28,530 --> 00:29:31,189
Eventually we'll prove the ROI of
these interactions but what we know

663
00:29:31,189 --> 00:29:34,829
is there are thousands of threads
online where customers are posting

664
00:29:34,830 --> 00:29:36,389
pictures of the cards they received.

665
00:29:36,820 --> 00:29:39,250
And we don't go back and say, well
this is worth exactly 15 cents.

666
00:29:39,250 --> 00:29:42,699
We say, with this is the relationship
we want to have with our customers.

667
00:29:43,090 --> 00:29:44,220
And the same thing carries forward.

668
00:29:44,490 --> 00:29:46,290
If you have an automatic subscription.

669
00:29:47,530 --> 00:29:50,360
And you cancel it because,
unfortunately, maybe your pet died.

670
00:29:51,379 --> 00:29:54,199
They could say, oh, customer
churned, off they go.

671
00:29:54,780 --> 00:29:56,810
They take a step back and they say,
look, the customer's gone, there's

672
00:29:56,810 --> 00:29:58,139
no more revenue from this customer.

673
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,440
We're still going to write
a card with our condolences.

674
00:30:01,690 --> 00:30:05,480
We're going to spend the time to do that
because we want that type of relationship.

675
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:06,700
Just the same.

676
00:30:06,740 --> 00:30:11,290
If you had an individual mom and pop
pet shop on any business street, and you

677
00:30:11,290 --> 00:30:14,260
knew something happened to one of the
customers that came in every day, that

678
00:30:14,260 --> 00:30:15,759
may be the same way you approach it.

679
00:30:16,469 --> 00:30:19,060
And small business owners, whenever I
talk to them, they feel reinvigorated.

680
00:30:19,070 --> 00:30:21,430
This is the passion that brought
them into the business that they

681
00:30:21,430 --> 00:30:22,869
felt was lost in technology.

682
00:30:23,289 --> 00:30:27,550
The real message is to keep that passion
and force technology to find ways to

683
00:30:27,550 --> 00:30:29,990
deliver that to your customers or not.

684
00:30:31,070 --> 00:30:35,400
I remember as you talked, One,
in the early days of one of our

685
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,330
beauty businesses, uh, which I sold
a couple of years ago, but we had

686
00:30:38,330 --> 00:30:42,460
this, this beauty business and we did
all the email marketing internally.

687
00:30:42,460 --> 00:30:46,190
We had our own email server, which we will
just, and so we got all the bounce backs,

688
00:30:46,340 --> 00:30:50,069
which you don't get if you use like Aweber
and Klavio and all of those kind of guys.

689
00:30:50,069 --> 00:30:53,330
You get the, you try to reply to a
message and you get the no reply ad.

690
00:30:53,330 --> 00:30:56,020
It's like, how hard is this
to go to somebody's inbox?

691
00:30:56,500 --> 00:30:57,670
You send something to mine.

692
00:30:58,025 --> 00:30:59,105
I can't respond back.

693
00:30:59,215 --> 00:31:00,765
Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it?

694
00:31:00,765 --> 00:31:02,055
But we would get all the bounce backs.

695
00:31:02,055 --> 00:31:06,275
And the thing that we got that
we noticed was, um, because we

696
00:31:06,275 --> 00:31:10,144
were a beauty brand, we would get
quite a few emails from customers.

697
00:31:10,584 --> 00:31:12,915
Um, you know, the sort of the
out of office emails going,

698
00:31:13,155 --> 00:31:14,485
I'm on maternity leave.

699
00:31:15,394 --> 00:31:19,520
And we were like, After a while, it took
a little while for the light bulb to come

700
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,020
on Neil, I'm not gonna lie, but after
a while the light bulb came on, and so

701
00:31:23,050 --> 00:31:27,750
all we did was we sent out a free care
package to anybody, because we knew their

702
00:31:27,750 --> 00:31:32,810
address, and we put in there some like,
you know, beauty products and stretch

703
00:31:32,830 --> 00:31:37,160
cream, and we even had little baby
grows, you know, sort of little designs.

704
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,215
We put it in a box, it cost like
a few pounds, you know, like

705
00:31:41,215 --> 00:31:45,545
less than five bucks to make each
box, and we sent those boxes out

706
00:31:45,825 --> 00:31:47,615
with no agenda, just sent it out.

707
00:31:48,095 --> 00:31:51,515
Um, all because technology
at that time could tell me if

708
00:31:51,515 --> 00:31:52,685
they were on maternity leave.

709
00:31:53,034 --> 00:31:56,540
Well, I can't begin to tell you
how much good will that That

710
00:31:56,540 --> 00:31:58,760
one act gave us, you know, yeah,

711
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,420
it's, it's what, it's,
it's what we talk about.

712
00:32:00,420 --> 00:32:03,350
It's taking those hints from customers,
what they're sharing with you and

713
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,700
thinking about in a personal context,
what you would do if a customer comes

714
00:32:07,700 --> 00:32:11,320
into your store, a good customer
says, Hey, I'm not going to be around.

715
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:12,080
I'm having a baby.

716
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:13,610
Wouldn't it be bizarre?

717
00:32:13,610 --> 00:32:15,800
You get that information, you get
that hint, just as you did that auto

718
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,379
reply and you're like, Hey, Okay.

719
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,220
You just walked away.

720
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:22,250
No, congratulations.

721
00:32:22,300 --> 00:32:23,030
No, that's wonderful.

722
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,400
I'm not trying to engage him on
that subject, but just thinking

723
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,880
about yourself, oh, all right.

724
00:32:27,910 --> 00:32:30,580
Uh, I guess we'll suspend
your account for 90 days.

725
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:30,930
Yeah.

726
00:32:31,009 --> 00:32:31,500
Is that cool?

727
00:32:31,500 --> 00:32:33,410
You automatically resumed.

728
00:32:33,799 --> 00:32:37,590
That, that is, and here's, I want
to be clear because it's not to say

729
00:32:37,590 --> 00:32:41,020
for some companies that have been
successful, some companies have been

730
00:32:41,020 --> 00:32:45,925
successful with this very mass market
Efficiency driven approach and for the

731
00:32:45,925 --> 00:32:47,295
companies that decide to pursue it.

732
00:32:47,295 --> 00:32:48,915
So be it really.

733
00:32:48,915 --> 00:32:51,885
I think the revelation, this ties
back to those early comments is that.

734
00:32:52,370 --> 00:32:56,790
Now that we're in this very different
economic condition and things are

735
00:32:56,790 --> 00:33:01,170
uncertain, a lot of companies are saying,
I need a strategy that's different

736
00:33:01,740 --> 00:33:03,670
than my competitors to be successful.

737
00:33:03,670 --> 00:33:07,060
I can't fight over pennies and clicks.

738
00:33:07,530 --> 00:33:11,460
I want something where I find customers
that ideally will stick with me

739
00:33:11,460 --> 00:33:15,000
through this difficult time, that
will pay more money for my products,

740
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,360
that I will have better relationships
for, that I don't need to, and I'll

741
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,210
be honest even as a marketer, that I
don't need to continue marketing to.

742
00:33:21,945 --> 00:33:25,985
In order for them to come back or that
no matter how much my competitors send

743
00:33:25,985 --> 00:33:28,645
the messages, they say, I don't care
going back against that bodybuilding.

744
00:33:28,805 --> 00:33:29,265
com example.

745
00:33:29,265 --> 00:33:30,795
I'm happy to pay a higher price.

746
00:33:31,115 --> 00:33:32,705
I'm happy to wait longer for shipping.

747
00:33:33,565 --> 00:33:35,585
Because I feel connected
with this company.

748
00:33:35,675 --> 00:33:35,955
Yeah.

749
00:33:35,985 --> 00:33:38,715
And to think that's the foundation by
which you want to build your business on.

750
00:33:39,075 --> 00:33:39,435
Yeah.

751
00:33:39,555 --> 00:33:40,255
Fantastic.

752
00:33:40,815 --> 00:33:43,885
So how would you, uh, and I, I
mean, I kind of know the answer.

753
00:33:43,885 --> 00:33:44,425
I've read the book.

754
00:33:44,475 --> 00:33:49,265
I've, um, and I, I enjoyed the, some of
the, one of the things you said at Sub

755
00:33:49,265 --> 00:33:56,815
Summit, but let's, how would you build
relationships with your customers using.

756
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,440
You know, in an eCommerce setting,
specifically, I guess, this is a

757
00:34:00,500 --> 00:34:02,850
bit of a loaded question, Neil,
so let me just get straight to it.

758
00:34:03,790 --> 00:34:07,270
The thank you page, one of the things
you said at SubSummit was, uh, and you,

759
00:34:07,290 --> 00:34:10,100
you alluded to it earlier, on the Amazon
thank you page, you're given a number

760
00:34:10,100 --> 00:34:11,619
which you never write down and that's it.

761
00:34:12,010 --> 00:34:16,169
Um, what can we do there specifically,
I'm just thinking of a simple tactic here,

762
00:34:16,169 --> 00:34:19,640
Neil, you know, what can we do there which
helps us to start build relationships?

763
00:34:20,610 --> 00:34:22,890
Well, I mean, one of the cornerstones
of relationships is being able to

764
00:34:22,890 --> 00:34:24,380
exchange information and thoughts.

765
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,870
If you and I were talking here, and
you were asking questions, and I

766
00:34:27,870 --> 00:34:33,120
wasn't responding That wouldn't be a
great conversation and and oftentimes

767
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,030
that's what happens with e commerce
players because there's that well worn

768
00:34:36,030 --> 00:34:39,840
understanding That is if we ask a lot
of questions, they're not going to buy

769
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,690
our product Mm hmm people know if I add
additional questions on to my checkout

770
00:34:43,690 --> 00:34:47,359
flow, they may not buy and that's
really what my thing is At the moment.

771
00:34:47,390 --> 00:34:48,510
Let's keep them focused.

772
00:34:48,550 --> 00:34:50,910
No distractions at all for future value.

773
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,855
Keep them focused at the task at
hand And so what we have to find are

774
00:34:53,855 --> 00:34:57,565
where are there other ways where we
can carve out time to understand more

775
00:34:57,565 --> 00:35:00,695
about our customers and their needs
that aren't going to directly compete

776
00:35:00,695 --> 00:35:03,145
with maybe the short term goals
that we need to keep the lights on.

777
00:35:03,175 --> 00:35:03,465
Yeah.

778
00:35:03,755 --> 00:35:06,734
And so that's where the thank you page
is actually an interesting area because

779
00:35:07,735 --> 00:35:11,894
at least for eCommerce, the height of
trust is relatively speaking for any

780
00:35:11,894 --> 00:35:13,665
transaction is after they give you money.

781
00:35:14,780 --> 00:35:16,920
I really hope you deliver the
product I just purchased and

782
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,130
I hope it's what I expected.

783
00:35:18,830 --> 00:35:19,620
Because there it goes.

784
00:35:19,710 --> 00:35:20,680
I just handed it over.

785
00:35:20,980 --> 00:35:22,170
I handed over my money to you.

786
00:35:23,219 --> 00:35:23,990
And what does that do?

787
00:35:24,030 --> 00:35:26,169
At the end of that, this is where
it becomes really short sighted.

788
00:35:26,170 --> 00:35:27,920
It was like, I got exactly what I needed.

789
00:35:28,710 --> 00:35:29,429
Off you go.

790
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,500
Like imagine just how
bizarre that might be.

791
00:35:33,820 --> 00:35:35,370
You meet somebody, can I
have your phone number?

792
00:35:35,380 --> 00:35:35,620
Sure.

793
00:35:35,620 --> 00:35:36,020
Here it is.

794
00:35:36,100 --> 00:35:36,450
Okay.

795
00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:36,940
Bye.

796
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:38,910
And then they walk over and
start talking to someone else.

797
00:35:38,950 --> 00:35:40,710
It's like, no, we had a
great conversation going on.

798
00:35:40,870 --> 00:35:42,420
You got what you wanted
and then off you went.

799
00:35:43,085 --> 00:35:45,455
And so what I encourage eCommerce
companies to do is, first of

800
00:35:45,455 --> 00:35:46,715
all, never turn away a customer.

801
00:35:46,965 --> 00:35:48,285
I don't care where they
are in that process.

802
00:35:48,285 --> 00:35:50,645
If they just spent money
with you, it doesn't mean the

803
00:35:50,645 --> 00:35:52,985
transaction or that moment is over.

804
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,680
And so you have that thank you page,
which is where the basic place to start,

805
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,420
which is to say, all right, you just
got captured a whole bunch of money.

806
00:35:59,900 --> 00:36:00,630
What next?

807
00:36:01,490 --> 00:36:03,310
Do you let them go until
next time they need to buy?

808
00:36:03,529 --> 00:36:07,620
For some companies, they use it to
say, I'm gonna use this time to share

809
00:36:07,630 --> 00:36:09,299
more about what's going to happen.

810
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,909
Domino's Pizza does this great,
where they say, all right, you just

811
00:36:11,909 --> 00:36:13,069
placed your order for your pizza.

812
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:14,630
Here's who has the order.

813
00:36:14,740 --> 00:36:15,880
Here's the steps it's going through.

814
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,800
They'll tell you every step of the
way, the person who has your order.

815
00:36:19,140 --> 00:36:22,010
eCommerce companies will sometimes
say, You just ordered a sweater.

816
00:36:22,190 --> 00:36:25,680
Let me give you the process of how
that sweater is going from a sheep

817
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:27,450
all the way to your front door.

818
00:36:27,450 --> 00:36:29,460
We're going to show you pictures
of the factory, that process.

819
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:30,010
Why?

820
00:36:30,860 --> 00:36:33,310
Because it turns out that when
people understand what's going

821
00:36:33,310 --> 00:36:36,320
on behind the scenes, they value
the quality of that product.

822
00:36:36,749 --> 00:36:39,390
They value that company higher
and are more likely to return.

823
00:36:40,349 --> 00:36:42,530
Others use it as a moment
to deepen the conversation.

824
00:36:42,530 --> 00:36:45,590
They say, instead of giving
you that blank page, can I ask

825
00:36:45,590 --> 00:36:47,050
you three or four more things?

826
00:36:48,085 --> 00:36:48,885
How did you find us?

827
00:36:48,885 --> 00:36:49,855
Who else do you buy from?

828
00:36:49,855 --> 00:36:51,675
Again, you just, you
completed the conversion.

829
00:36:51,675 --> 00:36:53,605
So you're not going to worry
about them going someplace else.

830
00:36:53,605 --> 00:36:56,305
The worst that can happen is they go
back to what you've been doing all the

831
00:36:56,305 --> 00:37:00,204
time, which is they close the window, but
you're surprised as to how many people

832
00:37:00,204 --> 00:37:01,995
actually want to respond and provide data.

833
00:37:02,095 --> 00:37:04,284
What can we do better as
a company to service you?

834
00:37:04,284 --> 00:37:05,435
What did you like the most?

835
00:37:06,025 --> 00:37:08,774
That's the best time to ask for
more information because it's

836
00:37:08,795 --> 00:37:11,175
just otherwise the alternative
is you're sending them away.

837
00:37:11,910 --> 00:37:14,230
The only thing that I offer
to people is sometimes people

838
00:37:14,230 --> 00:37:16,370
become very procedural about it.

839
00:37:16,370 --> 00:37:19,430
They'll put net promoter score on
a zero to ten scale, how likely are

840
00:37:19,430 --> 00:37:20,770
you to recommend this to a friend?

841
00:37:22,070 --> 00:37:22,670
All right.

842
00:37:22,810 --> 00:37:23,990
And that's all they ask.

843
00:37:24,029 --> 00:37:24,359
Yeah.

844
00:37:24,390 --> 00:37:27,419
Can you write a review on
Trustpilot for us before?

845
00:37:27,745 --> 00:37:29,935
You actually get our product,
you just got our money, you

846
00:37:29,935 --> 00:37:32,335
haven't seen our product, but tell
everybody we're a five star company.

847
00:37:33,285 --> 00:37:36,055
Keep that area fluid.

848
00:37:37,145 --> 00:37:40,575
Ask questions, not so that you can
get a nice chart that benchmarks

849
00:37:40,605 --> 00:37:44,804
it, but ask questions that inspire
and develop your curiosity.

850
00:37:46,145 --> 00:37:46,975
What else could we do?

851
00:37:46,995 --> 00:37:49,285
Hey, what do you think about this
creative we're thinking about running?

852
00:37:49,465 --> 00:37:51,385
Hey, here's a product
we haven't released yet.

853
00:37:51,835 --> 00:37:53,145
Change those questions up.

854
00:37:53,345 --> 00:37:56,195
Because you want the answers not
to be used for more methodology,

855
00:37:56,605 --> 00:37:59,905
but to inspire what you say next to
that customer in that relationship.

856
00:38:00,335 --> 00:38:02,895
Imagine if you're launching a new
product or thinking about a product.

857
00:38:03,125 --> 00:38:04,215
Hey, what would you think about this?

858
00:38:04,535 --> 00:38:07,335
And now having a signal to say, I can
go back to this customer in the future

859
00:38:07,335 --> 00:38:10,344
because I've already indicated interest
in something that I was building.

860
00:38:11,224 --> 00:38:12,094
That's what you want to do.

861
00:38:12,095 --> 00:38:14,424
Again, bringing it back to
the physical store metaphor.

862
00:38:14,424 --> 00:38:16,955
Somebody comes in, Hey, do you want
to see something we're working on?

863
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:18,210
What do you think?

864
00:38:18,210 --> 00:38:19,630
Do you think we should bring
these types of products in?

865
00:38:19,630 --> 00:38:21,080
Would you be interested in that?

866
00:38:21,110 --> 00:38:21,400
Yeah.

867
00:38:21,450 --> 00:38:23,380
Then you get to give them a call
later on to say, hey, we took your

868
00:38:23,380 --> 00:38:24,420
advice and we're bringing in it.

869
00:38:24,550 --> 00:38:25,700
How great that must be.

870
00:38:26,310 --> 00:38:31,039
And even in the, in most rudimentary
sense, it's still better than

871
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,580
saying, thank you for your money.

872
00:38:32,580 --> 00:38:33,179
Off you go.

873
00:38:33,220 --> 00:38:33,550
Yeah.

874
00:38:34,310 --> 00:38:37,039
And so sometimes it's just directing
us to say there's opportunities to

875
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,730
engage these customers at parts of
the funnel that we didn't think about.

876
00:38:41,130 --> 00:38:43,880
So if you bring that awareness, if the
only change you make today is you go to

877
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,169
your thank you page and you ask a survey
question that you change every week.

878
00:38:48,580 --> 00:38:50,850
And you look at the results
just as an owner to say, how

879
00:38:50,850 --> 00:38:51,990
can I improve this business?

880
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,140
And that's enough value to start
because so few companies do it.

881
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,190
Yeah, it's, I've, when I heard you
talk about this at Subsummit, I'm

882
00:38:59,190 --> 00:39:02,860
like, why have, we've, we've tried
various things on the thank you page.

883
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,469
Um, uh, educational stuff.

884
00:39:05,469 --> 00:39:11,905
We do videos and we, we do seasonal videos
and they're quite, um, Quite unpolished.

885
00:39:11,905 --> 00:39:14,995
It's me holding my iPhone, you
know, in quite a selfie format or

886
00:39:14,995 --> 00:39:17,915
whatever and they're good and we
get good interaction with them.

887
00:39:17,915 --> 00:39:21,264
But then this idea of taking the
conversation further, asking a few

888
00:39:21,264 --> 00:39:23,035
questions, I thought was super powerful.

889
00:39:23,105 --> 00:39:25,275
And, um, so thank you for that.

890
00:39:25,285 --> 00:39:28,755
That was my, uh, one of my key takeaways
from, uh, Subsummit, uh, that we

891
00:39:28,785 --> 00:39:31,005
implemented in, uh, the business.

892
00:39:31,415 --> 00:39:33,555
Um, listen, Neil, I'm aware of time.

893
00:39:33,615 --> 00:39:34,955
I'm aware you're a very busy man.

894
00:39:36,420 --> 00:39:39,040
If people want to reach out to
you, if they want to connect with

895
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,810
you, if they want to find out more,
what's the best way to do that?

896
00:39:42,870 --> 00:39:44,930
I mean, you can put my name
into Google and one of the first

897
00:39:44,930 --> 00:39:48,200
results are going to be either my
LinkedIn profile, which is fine.

898
00:39:48,270 --> 00:39:50,790
I certainly answer messages
there to the best of my ability.

899
00:39:50,810 --> 00:39:53,945
It also allows you to access just
Random content I have nothing to sell

900
00:39:54,195 --> 00:39:57,755
or promote, but that seems to be,
that is the mass market approach.

901
00:39:58,865 --> 00:40:02,415
But also if, if you, there's a
message, you know, the message

902
00:40:02,415 --> 00:40:06,095
function, or if you want to send me an
email, it's just hello at neilhoyne.

903
00:40:06,114 --> 00:40:06,554
com.

904
00:40:06,855 --> 00:40:08,244
I'm happy to answer those messages.

905
00:40:08,535 --> 00:40:12,225
Only thing that I generally tell people
is that in answers, if it's something

906
00:40:12,225 --> 00:40:15,115
valuable, I always try to figure out a
way to bring it out to the community.

907
00:40:16,055 --> 00:40:18,875
And so oftentimes those messages, and I
always get permission first, but I like

908
00:40:18,875 --> 00:40:22,165
to have those conversations say, How do
we all learn from each other together?

909
00:40:22,345 --> 00:40:25,345
I learn as much from the people that
reach out to me as people say they

910
00:40:25,345 --> 00:40:28,525
may learn from me in my lectures
or my books or what have you.

911
00:40:28,845 --> 00:40:30,415
And so it's always part
of that conversation.

912
00:40:30,415 --> 00:40:33,484
I always invite people that are listening
to this one to continue it on other

913
00:40:33,484 --> 00:40:34,879
mediums wherever it's helpful to them.

914
00:40:35,430 --> 00:40:36,130
Fantastic.

915
00:40:36,490 --> 00:40:37,120
Fantastic.

916
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,300
Well, listen, Neil, I really
appreciate you taking the

917
00:40:40,310 --> 00:40:41,710
time to come on the show, man.

918
00:40:41,740 --> 00:40:44,270
And, uh, Oh, it's been great.

919
00:40:44,340 --> 00:40:46,499
Loved, loved, loved the conversation.

920
00:40:46,530 --> 00:40:50,210
And again, Neil, I have copious
amounts of notes here on my,

921
00:40:50,259 --> 00:40:52,020
uh, on my note taking device.

922
00:40:52,380 --> 00:40:54,370
Uh, it's been, it's been fantastic.

923
00:40:54,370 --> 00:40:56,500
So thank you so much for coming on.

924
00:40:58,440 --> 00:40:59,540
Well, that's it.

925
00:40:59,780 --> 00:41:02,920
That's another fantastic
conversation finished up.

926
00:41:02,940 --> 00:41:05,490
A huge thanks to Neil
again for joining me today.

927
00:41:05,850 --> 00:41:09,990
Also, a big shout out to today's
show sponsor, the eCommerce Cohort.

928
00:41:09,990 --> 00:41:14,150
Remember to check them out at
eCommerceCohort.com and be sure to follow

929
00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:17,249
the eCommerce Podcast wherever you get
your podcasts from because we've got yet

930
00:41:17,250 --> 00:41:22,190
more great conversations lined up and
I don't want you to miss any of them.

931
00:41:22,310 --> 00:41:24,180
Oh, no, I don't.

932
00:41:24,590 --> 00:41:29,125
Now If no one has told you yet today,
let me be the first person to tell you,

933
00:41:29,325 --> 00:41:33,835
you are awesome, yes you are, created
awesome, it's just a burden you have to

934
00:41:33,835 --> 00:41:37,925
bear, I've got to bear it, Neil's got to
bear it, you've got to bear it as well.

935
00:41:38,344 --> 00:41:41,865
Now the eCommerce Podcast is produced
by Aurion Media, you can find our

936
00:41:41,865 --> 00:41:45,220
entire archive of episodes Episodes
on your favorite podcast app.

937
00:41:45,220 --> 00:41:48,540
The team that makes this show
possible is Sadaf Beynon and

938
00:41:48,540 --> 00:41:50,750
Estella Robin and Tanya Hutsuliak.

939
00:41:50,940 --> 00:41:53,220
And our theme song was
written by Josh Edmondson.

940
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,800
And as I mentioned, if you would
like to read the show notes and

941
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,610
transcripts, she can find all of
that, all the links, everything on the

942
00:41:59,610 --> 00:42:02,670
website at www.ecommerce podcast.net

943
00:42:03,070 --> 00:42:04,110
.
That's it from me.

944
00:42:04,140 --> 00:42:05,190
That's it from Neil.

945
00:42:05,190 --> 00:42:06,780
Thank you so much for joining us.

946
00:42:06,990 --> 00:42:09,420
Have a fantastic week
wherever you are in the world.

947
00:42:09,660 --> 00:42:10,440
I'll see you next time.

948
00:42:10,500 --> 00:42:10,950
Bye for

949
00:42:10,950 --> 00:42:11,100
now.