Welcome to the Dream Life show, Michelle.

Thank you for having me.

This is so much fun.

It looks so great here.

Thank you.

We're so excited about the new studio.

I love it, it's beautiful.

Okay everybody, we have a very special guest on the show here today, Michelle Lewis.

And I'm going to read her bio just so you understand who we're talking to.

So Michelle Lewis, an award winning songwriter and composer and a highly influential music creators rights advocate for more than two decades she has written charting singles for a diverse array of artists from Amy Grant and Cher.

Remember a different kind of love song.

That, that's Michelle.

To Little Mix's number one single Wings just last year.

I think actually it was a few years ago.

A few years ago but it's, I feel like it's played a lot.

Yeah.

You recently ventured into kids and animated and you've been nominated for six Emmys and two wins for Bubble Guppies and if anybody with kids, you guys know Doc McSuffins.

Yep.

That's your compositions on the show and you're currently an executive producer, writer and composer on a show you created called Kindergarten the musical for Disney Junior.

And you're a co founder of sona, the songwriters of North America and the SONA foundation which we're going to dive into both of those things.

Yeah, it's a trade association that fights for songwriters rights and you serve on the board of directors at ASCAP and also the recording.

Okay.

So as you can see we're talking to a powerhouse today.

So I'm so excited to get into this.

Thanks.

Yeah, I, I, this last year I, I co founded Sona and then last year I became the CEO of the two organizations which is crazy.

CEO of SONA and the Sona Foundation.

Okay.

Yeah.

So tell us about your journey.

Like how did you get to where you are now in terms of your passion for fighting for songwriters rights and founding SONA and becoming the CEO of both organizations.

Like how did you do that?

The big question.

The big question.

I mean it all kind of makes sense if you cut, if you know, if you start where I started which is as the kid of two musicians in New York.

My mom's singer, my dad was saxophone player.

They were like middle class working musicians in the 80s and 90s and there was a middle class of music makers that was thriving, supported whether you were doing studio work or touring or.

My mom was a studio singer, my dad was a touring musician and, and it was sustainable.

I went into songwriting kind of not by default but because I was Writing for myself.

I was writing songs for myself as an artist, and songs that I wrote for myself started getting picked off by, you know, other artists, like.

Like, I mean, Christina Aguilera, for example, or Kelly Clarkson kind of thing.

So I felt like that had.

I felt like that had some dignity to it, rather than sitting like.

Like sitting in a van for hours on end not knowing where you're going to get to when you get to the club.

You know, I did some touring in my 90s.

In the 90s.

In my 90s, when I was 19, I did some touring.

You were rocking out?

I was rocking out.

I did some touring then.

And.

And wait, so you're saying you felt like you had.

You felt like, better about on songwriting side than the artist?

Yeah, yeah.

I felt like it was more in my control.

Like, I felt like I could control where the songs went and the career I had control over.

So I pivoted around 2000 in the early 2000s from, like, you know, sort of trying to do an artist thing and then, like, becoming part of, like, more behind the scenes and other artists, like, giving my songs to other artists.

And it was a time when that was really.

There was a real, like, ecosystem around that.

It was like.

It was when they're, you know, Hilary Duff and Lindsay Lohan and all those TV shows that were, you know, just kind of getting going in the Voice, American Idol, you know, I had.

I was running for all those winners and contestants.

So let me ask you, because if.

Okay, if a young artist songwriter's listening, they're like, but how did you get those big breaks so early on in your career?

Like, how did you.

Was it a lot of networking?

Was it some good luck?

Like, how did that happen?

I think it was both.

I mean, I think it was good luck and then also, just, like, working really, really hard when you're at that age where you, you know, kind of don't need a huge, Like, a lot of stuff, you know, you keep your overhead really low, and you can live in a tiny apartment with roommates and.

And, you know, and hustle, like, wait tables and, you know, do other things to, you know, pay the rent.

And then you're just, you know, really, really working on the craft of songwriting.

That was kind of my favorite part.

I mean, I think there's also a craft of performing and being a performer.

And when, like, I kind of.

If I had to choose at the time, which I guess I ended up choosing, like, which I preferred.

I really preferred the sort of studio process.

I love that sort of Bubble of making something up that didn't exist before, you know, that like pulling something out of the air.

And now it is a thing.

So.

So when there's nothing.

And also the collaborative process, I love the being in a room with someone that you know is funny and creative and all that stuff.

And you just have that.

That great.

Like my friend Shelly pike and calls it songwriter sex.

It's like, nice.

Yeah, I never heard that.

Oh, yeah, that's so.

It's in her book.

It's her credit to Shelley Piken for that.

But yeah, it's that.

Was it a lot of like big writers groups?

It was a lot of big writers, like.

Yeah.

Or.

Sorry, what I mean was, were there a lot of people in the room or was it.

No, no, no.

Just like you and like a person or two other people.

It was.

That was another thing about like doing this in the early 2000s.

Like, it wasn't that sort of like writing by committee style that I feel like is the thing now.

It's, you know, just you and a few writers get your favorites and you'd get a project and, you know, sometimes the project would seem sort of like really, really commercial.

Other times it would be really arty.

But just getting to sort of like figure out what that project needed at the time and.

And then.

And then just.

Just go running.

Just really, just like being in the lab and creating something that.

From nothing and just having that just sometimes when the faucet's on and you're just feeling like inspired, it's just the best feeling in the world.

So.

So I sort of put double down on that, on the writing for other people thing.

But I did it and I got to really benefit from it because it was a time where there was still album sales and like, you know, CDs were like selling in the multi platinum.

You know, you could sell millions of CDs and all this.

This is like between 2000 and 2008.

But then in 2007, 2008, something happened in the music industry that I, you know, I don't.

People who are like coming up now I don't think know about, which is that YouTube?

You know, there was Napster and all that stuff.

Which was the first.

Yeah.

A little earlier, which was definitely the first sort of disruption of the music industry.

But then the real, like kind of killer was having that choice.

Everybody having that choice between buying music, like buying an album or a CD or something like that, or just like checking it out for free on YouTube.

Yeah.

And that sucked.

So you think YouTube itself is a bigger disruptor than Napster.

I do.

Ultimately, I think in terms of like dollars, it sucked more value out of like, you know, I think the.

The music industry went from being a 30, you know, billion dollar or whatever.

I forgot the number, but it sucked about two thirds of the value out of the entire music industry at the time.

It really.

Wow.

Yeah, it was crazy how much it devalued.

And that was all like, all like happening at the same time that I had a kid.

Okay.

I had my son and 2007 and.

And then, you know, coming back from having my son in like 2008, 2009, there was like, no, there was like, you know, we're, you know, all kind of like vying for the same projects and competing and like, there was no money to like, we were all like, no.

We would get these songs coming out and we'd have these releases, but no one was like, you know, you're starting to see, like there was very little money to make from them.

Cause no one was buying albums.

And then so I pivoted to this world of children's television and animation.

I got this job.

I got a call in 2010 from the head of development at Disney, at Disney Junior at the time, to write music.

My writing partner and I, to write music for what was then a totally unknown show, Daphne Steppins, and to write the theme song for it.

We ended up getting hired to do all the music for the series for that.

Well, for that season.

And then that series went on to become this like, hit one.

Peabody is all these things.

So that was this like, really kind of fun lane that I didn't know about to write in while the music industry was getting its shit back together.

Interesting.

Yeah.

And so the.

So then while I was on hiatus between seasons one and season two of doc, I wrote this, you know, co wrote with some of my friends, you know, my favorite collaborators and my people.

And this song became the song Wings for Little Mix.

Had a lot of writers on it, had 10 writers on it.

Yeah, it was definitely like what we call Franken, right?

And then, yeah, totally a Franken.

Right.

And then in 2014, it went to number one and a lot of like global, you know, in a lot of global markets.

It was also my first sort of like streaming single.

And I saw what, having had singles in say like 2004 versus 10 years later in 2014, seeing what the revenue was compared, like, if I, if I did apples to apples, like what you'd make from a single 10 years earlier now, 10 years later in streaming, it was shocking.

Like, I, you know, the only.

The only response is just start, like, swearing.

Like, you're like, you have a number one hit song.

Yeah, yeah.

And I knew what that was worth.

And I was.

It was my first one, you know, since coming back from.

After having a kid and going into children's television and all that stuff.

I was like, oh, great, right?

Let's see what the music business is doing now.

And, wow.

It was.

It was.

It was pretty devastating.

So I started asking around, like, my friends, you know, like, who are also songwriters, like, are you seeing the same thing?

What's going on here?

We started comparing notes.

We found this attorney who.

Could you share any numbers to give us an idea?

Oh, yeah, totally.

So.

So, okay.

My first quarter on my ASCAP statement.

ASCAP is like the company that.

The organization that collects royalties for, for songs that are on the.

On the radio and on TV and also in streaming.

Like, they collect your performance royalties.

So whenever your song is played streamed, shown on a TV show, played in a restaurant or bar, in a spin class, whatever, ASCAP has, like, basically they license your songs and they collect music on your behalf.

They collect money on your behalf.

So I was thinking, like, this is going to be good.

So, so, for example, my wings played on.

In this one quarter, wings played on YouTube.

Like, it was something like, you know, 13 million times, right?

Like, it was like 13 million views.

And the number I remember, like, looking at.

Looking for it, like, oh, this is gonna be good, and looking for the number.

And then it was being like, it was like $3.78.

Oh, my God.

Okay, okay.

Yeah.

That's why I was like, yeah.

And.

And that's.

That.

That was the kind of.

That one statement was the first time I was just like, oh, this.

This is bad.

This is very bad.

And so then, like I said, that was my kind of like, spark moment of like, is this normal and is this what's going to happen?

And I decided after, like, looking into it and meeting with Dina Leopoldt, who is our attorney and co founder of Sona and my writing partner and some other, you know, my friend Shelley Piken and Pam Shane, other big writers who.

Erica Nouri, another one who have.

Who were very busy top liners at the time, but also had that apples to apples of knowing what he had before to knowing what we had then, to know that it was messed up.

And, you know, I decided it was more worth my time to try to fix this than to write more songs.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So we started Zona oh, that's so amazing.

And, and it really was that group of like women, a lot of top liners and our attorney, our female attorney who rang the alarm for our like younger siblings, you know, like this is what's going on.

You don't know because you weren't, you know, you weren't there 10 years ago to know what it was.

And we need to get to the bottom of this and make it a sustainable career for our younger siblings like who want to do this too.

Yeah.

And that gives me goosebumps, especially because it's like, it's like the women coming together and fighting for change and equality.

Like totally, totally.

And it really wasn't.

And honestly it wasn't just, it wasn't for women.

It was really about the job of songwriter.

And it was I guess women that were being sort of disproportionately affected because women, at least at the time, I'm sure you know this, like women are really underrepresented in like production and engineering and all and like those careers.

So we are just making money from royalties.

Right.

Not from like session fees and day rates and producer points and producer advances.

That makes total sense.

So we were really being like disproportionately affected by this.

But it was, is more, it is way more.

You know, it's a problem for every, every song and every creator for sure.

The way streaming pays out creators is, is, is it puts creators at the bottom of the formula.

Like we are the bottom of the food chain, songwriters in particular and artists as well.

But, but we get artists do a little fare a little better in streaming, but it's still fractions of a penny, you know, per stream.

So we started Sona.

So how is SONA trying to change the system?

So at the time it sort of, it's like a choose your own adventure for sure.

Like we at the time, the issue, after we like looked into it, figured out, you know, that the issue had a lot to do with outdated regulations and laws, the copyright laws.

We, we went to Washington and we sort of, you know, we met with attorneys and legislators and figured out, you know, where what was going on in copyright law that sort of led to all of this.

And then we got really, you know, we sued the Department of Justice.

Wow, okay.

Over really outdated consent decree, which is so nerdy.

And we'll get into it here.

But like it was because you wanted

them to do more to regulate.

Actually they were doing too much to regulate.

Oh, they were over kind of like heavy handed on how so songwriters income is 75% regulated by the US government.

Really?

Yes, I know.

How crazy is that?

Between our mechanical royalties and our performance royalties, it's 75% regulated by the US government.

So what are they?

What?

And okay, so I come from Washington D.C. i had a, you know, consulting company in D.C. government contracting.

Oh my God for over, you know, over a decade.

Oh, and but even I'm confused.

So I want you, okay, I want you to explain like what are they regulating to control songwriters income.

So songs are, there's, there's millions of songs, there's millions of cues on television, millions of pieces of music.

It's untenable for some, for like if you're Netflix or if you're a radio station to license directly with every songwriter for their catalogs, particularly songwriters who are no longer with us.

Like you have to, you need to go to some kind of collective.

Collective rights management has been sort of the way that the US has sort of got like the way that we.

And actually globally the way that music has been sort of licensed and used for, you know, for public broadcast.

So those ASCAP and bmi, which are the ones in the United States, I'd say the biggest ones, there's two others are considered monopolies, right.

Because they have their, their controlling.

Controlling so much of the market share of songwriters.

Okay, not so much songwriters, but our works, our works are all in these, you know, controlled in.

These are all managed in these two places.

GMR and CSAC are the others in the US So in order to stop like thwart monopolistic behavior, price gouging and things like that, they were given in the 1940s.

They were given consent decrees.

Consent decrees are like anti monopolistic decrees that are given by a judge.

And so, and it protects ASCAP from being like ASCAP and BMI from, you know, being sued for.

So it's sort of a protective measure for them, but also a hampering measure for them.

And, and I can't believe they're, you know, they.

I think the word saloon is in the night is in, in the consent decree for ascap.

Like it is, it is dated, right?

It is dated.

And so there's always these kind of like, can we update the consent decrees?

But that controls the like the spirit performance royalty side and then on the mechanical royalty side, which is based on sales, that is all done through a copyright royalty tribunal.

Literally three judges that sit on a tribunal to set rates for how much music is worth.

That's like that statutory rate that you hear about for like the, for for sales, for album sales, it's used forever.

It was 9.1 cents.

It just got moved two years ago to 12.

So it's ridiculous because it's actually having the opposite effect on the economy and on the rights of the creators and the people who are.

They've got it all backwards because ASCAP and BMI and csac, they don't need to be regulated like corporations because they're serving.

They're just.

It's like a different mission.

Exactly.

I mean, Google's probably monopoly in a very similar way.

Right.

But at the time that this happened, getting these consent decrees kind of like lift, like lifted or, or amended or updated.

It's impossible.

So we.

So we sued the.

That.

That was how we ended up with the doj, because the DOJ issues the consent decrees for, you know, like, if you're going to put a consent decree on AT&T, for example, that comes from

the DOJ, which AT&T should have one.

But I think they did.

I think they did a job.

Okay, so.

So how did that go?

We won.

Oh, yeah.

What did it change?

It actually, it was.

It didn't end up changing.

It ended up that the DOJ wanted to add an additional restriction on, like, they wanted to amend the consent decrees to be more like restricted for some.

Right.

And so.

I know.

So they had made these recommendations, they were going to enact this thing, and we were like, hell no.

So that's why we sued them to keep them from doing, like, making them more restrictive.

So we.

We got them to stop.

To not do that.

Yeah.

And then the next thing we did was we got on board with this thing that became the Music Modernization act, which was updating copyright law to reflect streaming.

Yeah.

And that passed in 2018.

Okay.

Okay, awesome.

What's next on the agenda?

So next on the agenda is.

There's so much.

There's so much.

I mean, the truth is, when it comes to streaming, we kind of got to the table a little too late.

So, you know, already somewhere at the bottom of the food chain, as I was saying.

And so we're.

We're just always trying to find ways to bring money over from.

From the sides that have the biggest, bigger slices of the pie, the sound recording side and the streaming services themselves.

Those percentages of income completely outweigh the percentage that goes to songwriters and publishers.

So any way we can pull that money over so that songwriters can sustain themselves to live to see the next day in the studio, that's kind of what we're focused on.

And then we got AI coming fast and it's here coming.

It's here.

But how to protect writers from being infringed by that.

So there's.

There's so much to do.

And then, of course, because we don't have a.

We don't.

Songwriters don't have a union, so we act kind of unionish and we, you know, we're concerned with like, studio safety and, and, you know, equity for, you know, women and underrepresented.

Underrepresented minorities and, you know, in the industry.

So we're always kind of pushing for equity, fair pay, health and safety standards, things like that, like, kind of union Y stuff.

Thank you for getting into all of that.

Actually, I actually didn't think we were going to go there, but I got so engrossed in understanding the specifics.

Yeah, there's a lot.

There's a lot.

And it's mostly volunteer, by the way.

Like, we have a tiny space staff.

Yeah.

But it's mostly volunteers of people who are working.

Songwriters and composers and managers and some publishers and lawyers who work.

Because you still do your work in terms of being a songwriter and composer.

I do, I do.

I still work full time as a composer.

Yeah.

Okay, so let's talk a little bit about that.

We were having a conversation before we turned the cameras on about this idea of, okay, the artist today and the songwriter today, the creator today, and how I had goosebumps when you were telling me this because I was like, I was just thinking about this.

There's this balance between being a creative and being a creative almost requires you to be like a child at heart.

Right?

Yes, yes.

And play and put it all out there versus being taken seriously in the industry and being able to guide decisions and have control over your art.

Right.

As a starting point.

Right.

And then.

And then make decisions in the industry itself and shape things and shape policy and all that.

Right, Right.

So tell me what you were.

Share what you were telling me earlier.

It was so interesting.

I want to hear how you say it.

So.

So one of the things that happened when I started getting into this advocacy world and working in policy is I started being asked to join boards.

Like, I'm on the board of ascap.

I joined.

I got elected to the board of the LA chapter of the.

Of the Reporting Academy board.

And I'm also, like, part of a lot of these, like, kind of think Tinky coalitions.

And I chair the SONA board.

And I realized as I was like being pulled into these rooms where decisions, like financial decisions are being made That I had no training for this whatsoever.

There is nothing about being a songwriter or creative, at least in my experience, that prepares you for these more, you know, worky conversations.

In fact, where I say things like worky.

That's probably why.

Yeah, yeah.

So.

So I. I mean, everybody knows what

you mean when you say worky.

Yeah.

Like.

Well, because it's.

Right.

Because you play an instrument.

Right?

It's play.

We are so, you know, infantilized as creators.

We're treated like children.

And in a way we dig into that.

I mean, it's something we need.

We need that, like, bubble.

And I am a blurter.

Like, I blurt.

Like, the, The.

The training that you get as a songwriter is to think it, say it.

Dare to suck loud and wrong.

Like, don't edit your thoughts because what you say, that's the stupidest thing in the world, will spark the idea in the person that you're talking to or that you're working with.

That could be the title of the song or that could be the fix to the lyric that you're struggling with.

So you don't self edit as a way of communicating.

You're think it, say it.

That is the opposite to how you communicate as a board member or as someone.

As an executive in a meeting.

Like as an executive in a meeting or on a board, you plan what you're going to say.

You're not really listening to the person that is talking.

You're strategically waiting and formulating your statement as part of your agenda and of what you want to get accomplished in that meeting.

It is the opposite of thinking, of thinking it, saying it.

You are much more.

It's a whole other way of communicating that we are not taught and we're not encouraged to do.

It's different brain and it's unicorns that, like, there aren't a lot of people who can navigate both.

Who could do both.

I find when I'm focusing on policy work and I.

It's hard to be creative.

Yeah, it is hard to just kind of go into a writing room and like, be free with my thoughts and let my imagination run.

And.

And again, that has like real, you know, like the.

The effect that that's had on.

On all writers is that we get our creatives, is that we get treated like children and not consulted on our.

On the business decisions that affect us.

When we started Sona, we did not see ourselves in the room where decisions were being made about our careers.

And even more so as women.

Yeah.

Oh, absolutely.

More so we looked around at the advocacy Space.

And it was all men, you know, frankly, white men who were doing this, and they were doing great work.

You know, they were pushing for, you know, for.

For more money and more, you know, and.

But.

But.

But there was.

There were no women in those rooms.

And even the male songwriters, like, I think the whole sexualization of females.

Yeah.

Even harder to go from, you know, being this sexy pop star and then take me serious on this business decision, which it shouldn't be one or the

other, like, what happens, you know.

Absolutely.

Right.

And so I guess men are more easily treated like adults than women are.

I guess in this.

In this way, there's definitely a gender difference.

I think the way we're sort of like, how much.

How far you have to go to be let into this room, this room, where decisions are being made about your livelihood.

Like, we missed those conversations around how the pie was divided up around streaming.

We will not miss that conversation around AI.

Right.

Yeah.

We're here now, and we will make sure we are in that room when that pie gets divided up.

Because we're feeling.

I mean, the middle class of the industry has been decimated by streaming, so we don't want to see it happen.

I want to.

I want to come back to that, actually, because there is a lot of people talking about how there's now a new middle class of being an artist

because you can go direct to fans, social media.

Right.

Whereas before, you had to sign to a big label and not to do all that, I guess, on the artist side of things versus the songwriter.

Right, Right.

But also, I want to touch on what you were saying earlier, because you were then invited into those rooms.

You did manage to cross over.

Yeah, I guess.

Right.

So how has that experience been for you?

Or like, what are.

Yeah.

What are your thoughts on it at this point in your career?

So I encourage it.

Like, I encourage other women and people from underrepresented groups.

You know, lgbtq, you know, Latin writers, you know, black writers.

Writer, writer.

Like, people who don't see themselves on boards and, you know, not just boards, but in executive, you know, meeting, like, decisions where.

Like where to put money.

Yeah.

Is being.

Those decisions are being made, like how to invest.

Because I.

It's so out of whack.

Women and people of color bring in so much revenue into the.

Into the ecosystem.

Think about all the women at the top of the charts right now.

Think about Latin, like the explosion of Latin music, the explosion of hip hop.

It's.

It's all being.

So much of it is being driven into the ecosystem.

By these groups.

And yet the boardrooms and the executive, the C suites are still filled with one kind of person and those.

That's where decisions get made to spend more money.

So that's why, you know, if you're investing what costs money, Production.

Like, you know, so like male producers like it.

We need women in those rooms to know like, you know, that woman producer is going to do a great job and we need to invest there.

Like if we're not in the room, we can't make those recommendations.

So we need to be in those rooms and we need to find more like encourage more investment.

That's.

Do you think there's a way to bring some of that creativity and some of that spurred moment thinking into those rooms?

Or do you think that to get into those rooms you kind of need to develop an alter ego?

I think so.

I think, I mean, I'm sure there is a way in and maybe in companies that are led by like start your own company.

Right.

Like we started Sona because we didn't see ourselves represented in the trade associations that were doing this kind of fight.

That's kind of advocacy work.

So start your own.

Right.

But you need investment.

So I mean we started our own with like sweat equity.

But like I would love to see a major label, you know, like I would love to see a major, you know, film studio.

Like I would love to see more women in decision making roles.

Like I was telling you how like one of the only women in the, on the sound recording side and you know, the label side of the music industry was just recently replaced by a, a 30 year old man in August.

So.

And you know, if you look at who's on their label, who's on that label, it's so many women who bring in so much, you know, revenue into that label.

So it's, it feels deep.

Talk about not, you know, equitable, but also just like an unfair.

And not 2024.

Like what year are we in?

So ridiculous that the music industry still looks like this.

Heartbreaking.

Heartbreaking.

It's so crazy and you know, probably by design.

So how do we fight that?

Yeah, I think, I think to your point, like we have to play the game to change the game.

That's what I always say.

Yeah, I think that's a smart way of putting it.

Yeah, yeah, we can, we can play the game.

Go show up with your worky personality, you know, Play the game and then once there's more of us in there, then we can change the game.

Yeah, I think that collective power and you Know, Sona is like a true representation of collective power.

Yeah.

Yeah, we totally made it our own and.

And got.

And, like, just fought our way in the room.

Think, you know, someone like Dina LaPolt, who is already this, like, rock star power lawyer, you know, pulling us in there was.

It definitely gave us a light up.

But I see other groups doing it, too, and I want to see more women on boards.

I want to see more.

So how do you.

Okay, so if a woman's listening, like, I want to get on a board.

How do you even go about doing that?

You know, run like.

Like one.

Things about the ASCAP board.

You know, I'm on the board at ascap and it is elect.

It's like, elected by the membership.

Okay, so you can run, right?

Like, and others.

Put your name in the hat.

Yeah, like, go for.

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

And then I think things like, she.

Like, there's organizations like, she is the music.

And Women in Music for Women in particular, specifically that, you know, underrepresented group.

Like, we should do kind of more workshopy training stuff.

Workshoppy.

Sorry.

More training on.

On how to be on board.

On, you know, once you're.

Because you get elected now you need to, like, create an agenda and then enact that agenda.

Like, get that agenda across.

I spent the first few years on the ASCAP board just kind of making jokes, like.

Like being.

Trying to be the.

You know, trying to be funny or just.

Were you intimidated?

So intimidated.

So intimidated.

The people on this border, you know, they're the CEOs and the CFOs of the.

Of the publishing companies, and then they're like Jimmy Webb and Paul Williams and Desmond Child, you know, on the writer's side.

And so absolutely intimidated.

They're the loveliest people, by the way.

They're.

They're not like mansplainers at all.

They're amazing.

But of course, because they're songwriters.

Yeah, because they're songwriters.

Because they're songwriters.

But to the.

But to what you said earlier, you know, they probably get more of a benefit of the doubt because they're dudes.

Yeah.

So how did you get over that?

Being intimidated?

You know, personal interaction, like just kind of shutting up and listening for after a while and just being like, okay, I'm not like, I don't think I'm being heard, so let me shut up for a minute, see what the dynamic is.

And.

And.

And then not.

It really took like a. Oh, this is just acknowledging that this is the opposite of what I've been trained to do as a Songwriter.

This is not the same thing.

This is something else.

And going back to college, I went to this very academic college and, like, learned, you know, that kind of critical thinking, communication thing in school and really kind of harkening back to what I did in college.

Like, in classrooms, when you're, you know, you have to raise your hand and have a thought that you want to express, like.

And it was.

It was.

You know, I was at Columbia, which had only been allowing women.

Oh, just.

Just at Columbia, women had only been

there for, you know, maybe a decade by the time I was there.

And.

And, you know, to get heard in those classrooms was, like, yes.

Competitive.

Competitive.

And.

And, like, that's one of the things I figured out there was.

Was how to speak in a ring filament in an effective way.

And.

But it had been years since I'd done that, so I had to really go back to my education and whatever experience I had before I became a songwriter to remember how to do it.

But it was not easy.

It wasn't intuitive.

It wasn't something you look up.

I mean, I guess you could look it up, but, like.

Right.

But I also think, like.

Like, I think on the job, you don't know what you don't know.

And so, like, I didn't know that.

I didn't know that.

So kind of throwing myself into it.

And then finding mentors is really helpful.

Like, finding, you know, the.

The CEO of ASCAP is a woman.

Okay.

I'm really leaning on her.

There's, you know, everything.

Every time I come on, I come across something and sona or other.

Any other kind of thing, I think, what would Beth do?

And Beth Matthews is the CEO of ascap, and I definitely have a wwbd.

Like.

Like, I put myself in Beth's shoes, and I'm like, okay, what would she do in this situation?

Because ASCAP is.

Has over a million members, huge staff.

It's.

It's just.

She's badass.

Yeah.

That is amazing.

And I think that's, like, such good advice.

And even if you don't have, like, a mentor, like you.

You know, Beth, and.

But even if you don't have someone like that that, you know, like, I have found, even for me, you know, like Kamala Harris, for example.

Yes.

You know, she's.

I mean, the absolute epitome of, like, everything that I want to embody as a leader.

Yeah.

And communicator and.

And, like, just a small example, but I was, like, so tired out a couple weeks ago.

I was, like, on the go I had so many things on and, like, you know, running from thing to thing.

I didn't have any time to think or prepare or, you know, and then

I was like,

how would Kamala Harris do this exactly?

You know, how does she go from like, vice president, like, negotiating multinational hostage releases with 16 different countries to then showing up with full energy at a campaign rally.

Oh, my God.

At a coffee, 20,000 people.

To then a coffee shop.

To a coffee shop.

It's like, oh, my God.

Right.

So we can even.

You.

I feel like for me, just getting over things or changing our mindset helps to even have anyone.

Doesn't even have to be someone you personal relationship with.

Absolutely, absolutely.

But I also think we've identified here that, like, it might be like, you know, now we.

We have these advocacy organizations and trade associations that can help, can, like, kind of fill this gap.

That's something we can do.

Like, we can start a workshop.

We can create a mentor program.

I know these people now, so I can, like, say, you know, Beth, would you met.

Would you mentor someone on a.

You know, a new board member?

You know, I can think of so many women who would, I'm sure, be psyched to help.

I think we just have to.

If you build it, they will come.

So we build it.

Yeah.

Do you think that.

I mean, like you just said, I'm sure some of your women would be psyched to help.

Do you think that too much of

the pressure is on women to help?

Yeah.

I mean, I was like, what about the men?

I know.

The men should help, too.

The men should help, too.

But again, like, also, it's nice to see yourself representation, like, you.

We look to Kamala, right?

We look to Kamala Harris, and like, we, like.

I think I look at her all the time.

I'm like, how is she navigating this?

Literally.

Yeah.

Like, it is so hard, and she's navigating it.

Like,

it's inspiring.

It's so inspiring.

It's so inspiring.

And we, like, that's the thing.

It's like, we need to see ourselves in these leaders to learn what we don't know.

Like, you don't know what you don't know until you need to know it.

Right.

And then when you need to know it, then you're like, I have to learn that.

Where do you go?

Yeah.

No, I love that, what you said.

Like, you're kind of filling that gap.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, you know, one of the things that I had thought of when you were talking about this, like, this kind of duality yeah.

Between like creativity and like, how people then infantilize you.

Yeah.

When you're in that personality to then being, you know, in the more serious change maker, leadership personality.

Right, right, right.

Like, I was thinking that when it comes to.

Even as an artist, and I think, and I say this because I want people listening to think about the fact that first of all, like, and I always think this, like, just because someone says something with authority and make it right doesn't make it right.

Or, you know, says something with like, like acts conveys it in the sense that they know what they're talking about.

This is the right answer.

We're trained to believe it.

Especially as we're scrolling social media.

If you see someone saying something emphatically, you're, oh, that's the truth.

It's like, not at all.

Exactly.

And I have been scrolling social media and gotten the advice of like, you got like, what you were saying.

Like, show up as a beginner to put your deer to suck.

You got to show, you know, put your journey out there on social media so you can develop a fan base.

They can follow you along and grow with you.

And versus showing up fully as my fully formed artist self on social media.

Right.

Having a brand and saying, this is who I am.

Take it or leave it not, Hey, I wrote this demo.

Do you like this or do you like this?

Which hook do you like better?

It's like, do you really want, like, everybody on the Internet's opinion on.

No, you don't.

No, you.

You really don't.

I've been thinking about that a lot lately, like, with my own artist brand, because I've been doing the whole come along, this is my journey versus, you know, people have also said it on social media as like, look at me versus come with me.

But I actually don't think that that's necessarily the right analogy either.

Because it's not about look at me.

It's not about look at me.

It's about.

It's about as an artist, you are sharing your art.

You are giving an experience.

So it's offering an experience.

Instead of the come with me aspect could actually be more of like a desperate, like, I don't know.

I think it's about authenticity.

Right.

That word is so overused.

For 10, I used a different word than authenticity, but it's like who you are.

If you are generally a mess, like, really, truly a mess.

And that's what's like, endearing about you.

Then showing the mess and the bumps and bruises is authentic.

And like, and like, like Haha.

Look, I just did this and.

But if it's real, like, you really are like a mess, then it's.

Then it's probably right.

Okay, but if you're not.

And like you're just trying to maybe appear more vulnerable.

Right.

Or more like relatable.

But.

But really, no, you have your shift together and like, you work really hard and it's really like, like, like your authentic self is like, you know what you want and it's confident.

Like, I always believe that the cop.

Like the most confident songwriters are the better songwriters.

You're.

You trust your taste.

Yeah.

Like, you like what you like and you know what is good and you trust that because you have the confidence to double down with it and don't know this is the idea.

And like, I think those are better writers, better artists because, like, they know what they like.

And if you're kind of going like, tell me what I like, I guess adorable for a minute.

But if, but it, but not if it's not you.

So that's such a good way of kind of framing that.

I think it's.

I think it depends on the person.

Yeah.

I don't think it's one size fits all.

And I think like, showing your journey depends on like, what is interesting about your journey.

I think what is.

Would be interesting about your journey is like, you're on the other side of those lessons.

So.

Yeah.

Be confident in like that you know what you've learned.

I think that.

I think and I get.

I really do believe it depends on the person.

Right.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

I think the overall point is like, don't get convinced by advice one way or another.

Exactly.

Decide for yourself.

Decide for yourself.

Yeah, totally.

Because there's a zillion ways to do things, but it really depends on who you are.

Totally.

Yeah, totally.

Like, I mean, I was even like, you know, a lot of people are like, don't have an artist Persona because.

Right.

You want to be authentic as a human being.

You know, you want it for your social media.

You want to show your whole self, not just your artist Persona or whatever.

And honestly, like, I fell into that also.

And then recently I'm like, I need an artist Persona.

Look, we were talking about her before.

Chapel Run is a great example of how to do it.

She is herself is one person.

She's a really talented person.

She's a really talented songwriter, a talented singer.

But Chapel Ron isn't even her real name.

Chapel Ron is, which a lot of people don't know.

Which a lot of people don't know.

Chaplain is the project which is a team effort and it's deliberate and it's the best of who she is as a person.

The most relatable, the most, or maybe not most unrelatable.

The visuals, the hair and the full on makeup and who, who she emerges as when she steps out on stage.

It's an art project.

It's an art project.

It's an art project.

And I also think just for, for her, probably for her mental health, I think of like Gaga is the same way.

Like you put you.

That's a skin that you can wear to protect your heart.

Yeah.

From being hurt by all those opinions and things that come in that make you self question and second guess and feel shitty.

So I think for people who need to protect themselves, their souls and their stomachs, you know, and their, and their brains, like creating a skin and a costume.

Yeah.

Around it is self preservation.

Yeah, it's self preservation.

And it's also an outlet because we're not always just that.

Exactly, exactly.

You know, we're multiple.

We're multitudes.

Right, exactly.

And my friend Bonnie McKee is so good at like, you know, just taking the costume off and then, and then she's a songwriter and then up hair and makeup and she's, you know, an artist and it's.

So I think you do have to have like kind of a split.

Isn't that funny?

We're talking like everything involves sort of like this like.

Yeah.

Like you know, artist, songwriter, creative executive.

Right.

Like in compartmentalizing.

Which sounds weird and unnatural, but I think it's like what we have to do to.

Yeah.

To run in those lanes.

If you're.

You can't run in two lanes at the same time.

Yes.

Right.

You can't run in two lanes at the same time.

So you have to have multiple aspects of your personality that as a suit you put on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I really like that.

I really like the way that ended.

Anything else you want to add?

Because you know, people listening.

Inspired by your story.

I'm so inspired by your story.

I also, you know, I thought what you said about just apply, just put your hat in, like was such good.

I mean I remember being in high school school and like wanting to run for student government but too afraid to take to because people would make fun of me.

Like, oh, you think you're.

Yeah.

You think you're worthy?

There's so much like imposter syndrome thinking you're worthy of being on a board.

I never considered being on a board or worthy of being on a board until I was asked to run.

Wow.

Like, it wasn't a.

It wasn't a thing.

So maybe that's, you know, ask.

Ask your friends, ask your mentors, like, should I run?

And like, don't even listen to their answer if it's no.

But like, but like, find ways in because these are, these are important things to do.

They're worthy, they're worth your time.

And I do think, like, thinking being of service, that's the other thing about artists and creatives.

We are so up our own asses.

We are so like me focused on like, what's my.

What's my me.

My thing.

Getting yourself out of that and being of service to a community helps you ultimately comes back to you right as.

And it comes out to your.

Whatever your brand or your thing.

Like your brand and your paycheck.

Your brand and your pay, right?

Like, you get out of yourself and you are of service to.

To a bigger.

A bigger cause.

Like advocates for, you know, for like SIA is a huge animal rights advocate.

You know, it.

It comes back.

It comes.

It absolutely comes out.

You can't think about how it will come back, but it, it makes you a. I don't know, just a more interesting person.

More interesting person.

More interesting people around you.

Yeah, exactly.

It opens your.

It opens your network, it opens you up.

I. I think being open to other people, industries, experiences, thinking like, like not just being so tunnel vision of like, I must have this many hits cuts as a songwriter.

I must have this many views as a artist on TikTok.

Like, like, I get you need those doable actions, but ultimately you're gonna like, hit a wall.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, just open up to your bigger community.

Join sona, which is a trade association for songwriters and composers.

If you are one that helps the big pic, your voice, adding your voice to the chorus of voices that is fighting for our rights really helps.

But also all, you know, the trade associations that, you know, if you're an artist joining the recording academy, it's.

It ultimately helps you.

Yeah.

Amazing.

Michelle, thank you so much for being on the dream life.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

This is really fun.

I just thought of another thing.

Like, you know, we can talk about it.

We should talk about.

Here's another topic.

Tell me for the next time.

Okay.

Motherhood or parenthood and being a creative.

We'll do that next.

We'll do that next time.

Let's do that next.

I think that's such a good topic.

Yeah, it's a really good topic, because I know people are really struggling with time and if and can they and all that stuff.

And also age.

We should do motherhood and age.

Motherhood and age.

Yes.

Absolutely.

Okay, I'm in.

Okay.

Yay.

Thank you so much.

Happy to be here.