Speaker: 00:00:16

one that's interesting too, because you

brought that out in the book how you were.

00:00:19,477 --> 00:00:21,354

you're also in Israel.

00:00:21,354 --> 00:00:24,774

when some of this was going on, you said

he was fighting for like 3 or 4 days.

00:00:24,983 --> 00:00:27,861

with with him.

00:00:27,861 --> 00:00:28,153

Okay.

00:00:28,153 --> 00:00:30,822

So it wasn't,

was it any ground assaults or anything?

00:00:30,822 --> 00:00:33,199

a up in the border

between Lebanon and Israel.

00:00:33,199 --> 00:00:34,159

There was a little bit of that,

00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:38,747

but it was mostly the missiles

being sent by Hezbollah into Israel.

00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,417

So close to where you were,

like into Jerusalem or really interesting.

00:00:43,168 --> 00:00:46,129

I went there to write this book.

00:00:46,129 --> 00:00:47,839

I needed to get away from people.

00:00:47,839 --> 00:00:51,384

And nobody knew this except Steve,

who was my boss, Steve Brubaker.

00:00:51,843 --> 00:00:52,969

So I asked him about this.

00:00:52,969 --> 00:00:54,637

He said, I think we can do something.

00:00:54,637 --> 00:00:56,973

And then nobody knew this.

00:00:56,973 --> 00:01:00,351

And a young friend of mine, Called me

and said he was.

00:01:00,435 --> 00:01:03,438

I was 52

and he was 26, half at half my age.

00:01:04,022 --> 00:01:06,107

His parents and I are the same age

we know.

00:01:06,107 --> 00:01:06,983

We knew each other not.

00:01:06,983 --> 00:01:09,694

We weren't great friends or anything,

but we knew each other, he says.

00:01:09,694 --> 00:01:12,697

Steve,

I want to go to Israel to learn Hebrew.

00:01:12,947 --> 00:01:15,075

I can read the New Testament in Greek.

00:01:15,075 --> 00:01:16,159

I've already learned that.

00:01:16,159 --> 00:01:18,495

And I want to read

the Old Testament in Hebrew.

00:01:18,495 --> 00:01:19,746

And so I want to go there and learn it.

00:01:19,746 --> 00:01:22,665

But my parents don't want me to go

by myself. Would you come with me?

00:01:22,665 --> 00:01:24,167

How many people are going to ask for that?

00:01:24,167 --> 00:01:26,419

Plus, then I said, okay, nobody knew this.

00:01:26,419 --> 00:01:28,296

I said, when is it and how long?

00:01:28,296 --> 00:01:31,382

How many people are going to ask you

to go with him for half a year?

00:01:31,758 --> 00:01:33,593

Oh oh.

00:01:33,593 --> 00:01:35,720

So he he he asked for it.

00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:37,263

Wow. Six months.

00:01:37,263 --> 00:01:39,933

Said I told him the story, and I said.

00:01:39,933 --> 00:01:43,937

I said, you know, if your parents

are happy with me, I think I'll go.

00:01:43,937 --> 00:01:46,898

And so I went out visit.

We knew each other, like I said.

00:01:46,898 --> 00:01:47,816

So I went out and visited.

00:01:47,816 --> 00:01:50,443

We talked and we decided, yeah, you to go.

00:01:50,443 --> 00:01:53,488

went to Israel and for six months wrote

and wrote this book Yeah. and.

00:01:53,488 --> 00:01:56,366

Oh, man. so he asked me,

where do you want to live?

00:01:56,366 --> 00:01:59,035

And I said, oh, I saw pictures of Haifa.

00:01:59,035 --> 00:02:00,036

It's beautiful.

00:02:00,036 --> 00:02:01,955

Well, I guess he was just being nice

00:02:01,955 --> 00:02:03,289

because he really wanted

to go to Jerusalem

00:02:03,289 --> 00:02:06,042

because that's where the class was that

he wanted.

00:02:06,042 --> 00:02:07,627

He said, well,

I really want to go to Jerusalem.

00:02:07,627 --> 00:02:10,380

I said, it doesn't matter to me.

You just ask.

00:02:10,380 --> 00:02:12,966

I just I'm just telling.

But what a reason I'm saying this is

00:02:14,050 --> 00:02:17,387

the to missiles to reach from Lebanon,

southern Lebanon

00:02:17,387 --> 00:02:21,891

to Jerusalem

have to be, fueled by liquid rocket fuel.

00:02:22,225 --> 00:02:24,727

So you have to raise the thing

up and fuel it.

00:02:24,727 --> 00:02:27,730

It's not a solid, fuel.

00:02:27,939 --> 00:02:29,983

Those were the shorter range ones. These.

00:02:29,983 --> 00:02:32,986

Those you can pick up and shoot and go.

00:02:33,319 --> 00:02:35,947

So every time they raised

one of these slightly bigger

00:02:35,947 --> 00:02:39,450

rockets and started fueling it,

the Israeli radar found it.

00:02:39,450 --> 00:02:40,743

And they always got them.

00:02:40,743 --> 00:02:44,122

So none of the rockets ever

reached anywhere near where we were.

00:02:44,289 --> 00:02:47,292

But Haifa and northern Israel did

00:02:47,292 --> 00:02:50,295

get rather badly hit.

00:02:50,420 --> 00:02:53,381

So I'm glad we weren't listening

after all.

00:02:53,756 --> 00:02:56,551

But but, it was so interesting.

00:02:56,551 --> 00:02:59,554

So. So you you stayed in in Israel for.

00:02:59,846 --> 00:03:00,763

Or Jerusalem.

00:03:00,763 --> 00:03:02,807

Six and a half months.

00:03:02,807 --> 00:03:04,225

Writing this book also,

00:03:04,225 --> 00:03:07,228

you know, trying not to get hit by,

you know, missile fire and things,

00:03:08,438 --> 00:03:10,190

Arabs throwing things.

00:03:10,190 --> 00:03:10,732

yeah.

00:03:10,732 --> 00:03:14,903

When I was a Jew,

and they thought, Donovan.

00:03:14,986 --> 00:03:17,614

The Jews thought Donovan was a muslim.

00:03:17,614 --> 00:03:20,617

And they and the Jews

or the Muslims thought I was a Jew.

00:03:21,075 --> 00:03:22,744

So I had words thrown at me.

00:03:22,744 --> 00:03:23,745

I don't know what they said.

00:03:23,745 --> 00:03:26,706

It was Arabic, that it didn't sound happy.

00:03:26,706 --> 00:03:30,752

And once, once a stone was thrown at me

00:03:31,628 --> 00:03:35,882

and one time three young,

teenage boys were in a bus stop.

00:03:36,132 --> 00:03:37,884

And this was on the mount of Ascension.

00:03:37,884 --> 00:03:39,219

And I was walking up this road

00:03:39,219 --> 00:03:42,222

and there no houses or anything,

but there's a bus stop there,

00:03:42,347 --> 00:03:45,767

and, I don't know what they were saying,

but it didn't sound very happy.

00:03:45,767 --> 00:03:48,561

And I just told God, as I'm walking,

I said, God,

00:03:48,561 --> 00:03:51,439

I think I should just keep going,

but I'm scared.

00:03:51,439 --> 00:03:54,234

But anyway, you know,

and nothing happened.

00:03:54,234 --> 00:03:55,902

And later on I thought about it.

00:03:55,902 --> 00:03:58,947

You know, Jews can carry

concealed weapons.

00:03:59,489 --> 00:04:01,699

So they thought I was a Jew

and they were not.

00:04:01,699 --> 00:04:04,327

They were probably saying

some pretty nasty things in Arabic.

00:04:05,328 --> 00:04:06,079

And I just

00:04:06,079 --> 00:04:09,165

I mean, I think God protected me,

but I also thought about it later.

00:04:09,165 --> 00:04:12,168

Well, you know, there's one way

he protected me was they probably thought

00:04:12,460 --> 00:04:16,047

he's one of those crazy Israelis

with a gun that he's packing heat,

00:04:16,047 --> 00:04:18,716

but I can't see it. Yeah. Wow.

00:04:18,716 --> 00:04:19,884

They can do. That. So.

00:04:19,884 --> 00:04:22,011

So the setting didn't like that.

00:04:22,011 --> 00:04:23,554

Your book is on Nonresistance.

00:04:23,554 --> 00:04:25,515

And and the setting you're in.

00:04:25,515 --> 00:04:27,684

Wow is a pretty poignant backdrop

for that.

100

00:04:27,684 --> 00:04:29,060

And you Well one more thing.

101

00:04:29,060 --> 00:04:35,024

My dad he's gone now but he married

his second wife was a mormon at one time.

102

00:04:35,024 --> 00:04:36,609

And is out visiting them.

103

00:04:36,609 --> 00:04:38,278

His wife said Glenn Beck,

104

00:04:38,278 --> 00:04:41,698

who is I think a mormon,

and he's a radio commentator or something.

105

00:04:42,323 --> 00:04:44,450

She said,

Glenn Beck is in Israel right now.

106

00:04:44,450 --> 00:04:47,412

He's in Jerusalem, and he says it's

the safest cities ever been in.

107

00:04:47,412 --> 00:04:48,705

You lived there. What do you think?

108

00:04:49,747 --> 00:04:50,540

I thought

109

00:04:50,540 --> 00:04:53,751

about it a minute and I said, well,

my dad had been in the military

110

00:04:53,751 --> 00:04:57,922

and a policeman, and he doesn't he didn't

particularly like where I was at.

111

00:04:57,922 --> 00:05:00,216

But anyway, I mean this with this. Yeah.

112

00:05:00,216 --> 00:05:03,136

But anyway, so I said,

well, depends on what you mean.

113

00:05:03,136 --> 00:05:05,179

I've seen

114

00:05:05,179 --> 00:05:09,642

a Jewish mother by herself

pushing a stroller at midnight

115

00:05:10,476 --> 00:05:12,770

in Jerusalem by herself.

116

00:05:12,770 --> 00:05:13,730

Nobody with her.

117

00:05:13,730 --> 00:05:16,733

Not worried a bit,

but this was in the Jewish section.

118

00:05:17,317 --> 00:05:19,944

So, there are aspects you could say

119

00:05:19,944 --> 00:05:23,156

this is a very safe city,

but I've also seen the harassment

120

00:05:23,448 --> 00:05:28,202

that the Jewish police and military

are always doing with the Arabs.

121

00:05:29,162 --> 00:05:31,414

And so I knew the hatred.

122

00:05:31,414 --> 00:05:34,250

Well, sometimes it was directed at me.

123

00:05:34,250 --> 00:05:36,336

and, I knew that hatred.

124

00:05:36,336 --> 00:05:40,214

And I just said, look, I have never been

in a city where there was more hatred,

125

00:05:40,423 --> 00:05:43,926

but it's all screwed down really tight.

126

00:05:44,427 --> 00:05:47,388

And I think by the military

and the and the police,

127

00:05:47,388 --> 00:05:50,391

I said, I just don't want to be there

when it when it blows.

128

00:05:50,892 --> 00:05:55,855

my dad didn't like that,

but anyway, it it it it's,

129

00:05:55,980 --> 00:05:59,984

it is like a powder keg and,

130

00:05:59,984 --> 00:06:03,738

right now

it's kind of everything's closed up.

131

00:06:04,280 --> 00:06:07,658

But if you ever open one of those places

and a spark gets in there,

132

00:06:08,076 --> 00:06:10,244

it's not going to be pretty. Yeah.

133

00:06:10,244 --> 00:06:12,914

That's that's a, that's a great word

picture for it is that's,

134

00:06:12,914 --> 00:06:15,875

that was I definitely felt

that sense as well.

135

00:06:15,875 --> 00:06:20,213

Like just little you know just jabs here

and there at whichever direction,

136

00:06:20,213 --> 00:06:21,297

you know, this person or that.

137

00:06:21,297 --> 00:06:23,841

Well there was actually a shooting

on our block while we were there.

138

00:06:23,841 --> 00:06:24,300

I mean,

139

00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:24,801

we didn't know

140

00:06:24,801 --> 00:06:26,260

I was a middle of the night,

you know, but,

141

00:06:26,260 --> 00:06:30,139

I forget which way it was,

where there was Israeli shot and Arab

142

00:06:30,139 --> 00:06:32,183

or the other way around. But,

you know, just stuff like that.

143

00:06:32,183 --> 00:06:36,229

and it was like, you know, it's right

there.

144

00:06:36,229 --> 00:06:41,651

It's just right under the surface,

you know, anyway, the backdrop of that

145

00:06:41,651 --> 00:06:45,696

and what the topic of that you were

writing on must have been very that.

146

00:06:46,489 --> 00:06:48,324

It was intriguing. Yeah.

147

00:06:48,324 --> 00:06:49,492

Yeah. I didn't choose it.

148

00:06:49,492 --> 00:06:53,162

In fact I feel like God put me there

because Donovan calls me out of the blue.

149

00:06:53,162 --> 00:06:54,789

I didn't know he was going.

150

00:06:54,789 --> 00:06:57,792

He didn't know

I was asking for off already.

151

00:06:58,209 --> 00:06:59,710

But one more thing.

152

00:06:59,710 --> 00:07:05,091

You know, I looked like a Jew

because I have a beard.

153

00:07:05,091 --> 00:07:07,802

And I always had my head covered

because I'm bald

154

00:07:07,802 --> 00:07:10,430

and it's really hot over there and sunny.

155

00:07:10,430 --> 00:07:13,224

So typically, if a Arab

156

00:07:13,224 --> 00:07:17,019

or Muslim family was coming towards me,

they would think I'm a Jew.

157

00:07:17,353 --> 00:07:21,065

One time I was walking around the outside

of the old city wall,

158

00:07:21,649 --> 00:07:24,444

and I was at the walking along the part

that's

159

00:07:24,444 --> 00:07:28,322

where the eastern wall where there's

graveyards, the the Muslim graveyard.

160

00:07:28,573 --> 00:07:31,909

So there's a nice little,

promenade there.

161

00:07:31,909 --> 00:07:34,120

And I'm walking up that thing

and this fan.

162

00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:38,416

Oh, and I had tracks, so I was actually

passing out tracks to people,

163

00:07:38,958 --> 00:07:42,628

and, and, this, this couple,

I mean, this family,

164

00:07:42,628 --> 00:07:44,922

it was more than a couple of families

walking my way.

165

00:07:44,922 --> 00:07:47,508

Obviously, the Muslim,

166

00:07:47,508 --> 00:07:50,136

they probably probably

167

00:07:50,136 --> 00:07:53,556

the ladies had a hijab on

and they had long coats on and

168

00:07:53,723 --> 00:07:57,602

and this is in the summer

anyway, so when I got close to them,

169

00:07:59,437 --> 00:08:02,440

I think I said salaam.

170

00:08:02,899 --> 00:08:05,943

I think, you know, peace

instead of shalom.

171

00:08:07,069 --> 00:08:10,281

And I said, shalom.

172

00:08:10,281 --> 00:08:11,699

Can I give you something?

173

00:08:11,699 --> 00:08:13,576

Their eyes got really big. They started.

174

00:08:13,576 --> 00:08:17,163

They had been glaring at me before,

they started smiling at me.

175

00:08:18,039 --> 00:08:19,123

Are you a muslim?

176

00:08:19,123 --> 00:08:21,167

No, I'm a Christian.

177

00:08:21,167 --> 00:08:22,168

But that was okay.

178

00:08:22,168 --> 00:08:24,712

I wasn't a Jew,

179

00:08:24,712 --> 00:08:26,797

so we talked a little bit.

180

00:08:26,797 --> 00:08:29,133

I said, can I give you this? Sure.

181

00:08:29,133 --> 00:08:32,136

I don't know if they read it or not,

but we spoke in English together

182

00:08:32,345 --> 00:08:35,431

and, so but that shows you both sides.

183

00:08:35,431 --> 00:08:39,685

They were looking at me very hastily,

and then they

184

00:08:40,311 --> 00:08:43,940

the whole attitude changed

when I even just use one word of Arabic.

185

00:08:44,482 --> 00:08:45,983

That's amazing.

186

00:08:45,983 --> 00:08:46,442

That's.

187

00:08:46,442 --> 00:08:49,445

Yeah. Wow.

188

00:08:50,321 --> 00:08:51,364

Well, that was fun.

189

00:08:51,364 --> 00:08:52,532

That was interesting. Yes.

190

00:08:52,532 --> 00:08:54,283

It was extremely interesting.

191

00:08:54,283 --> 00:08:56,160

yeah. Donovan went to a church.

192

00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,746

He he was going to a Jewish school,

193

00:08:58,746 --> 00:09:01,749

so he went to a Baptist church

that met on Saturday.

194

00:09:02,291 --> 00:09:05,545

It's in the same building that the church

that I went to met a Baptist

195

00:09:05,545 --> 00:09:06,754

church, met on Sunday.

196

00:09:07,922 --> 00:09:08,923

his were more liberal.

197

00:09:08,923 --> 00:09:11,425

Mine were really fundamentalist.

198

00:09:11,425 --> 00:09:15,179

And, so he had some very interesting

things happen because of that.

199

00:09:17,098 --> 00:09:20,643

one time, Donovan's group

was they each group knew

200

00:09:20,893 --> 00:09:23,813

that the other guy was living with this,

with this other fella.

201

00:09:23,813 --> 00:09:27,149

And so, Donovan's pastor

202

00:09:27,608 --> 00:09:30,611

with a beer in his hand while they're

grilling steaks and all his beer.

203

00:09:30,653 --> 00:09:34,782

Baptist kind of sounds a little funny,

but he says, maybe not.

204

00:09:34,782 --> 00:09:36,200

I don't know, maybe the South they do it.

205

00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:37,326

okay.

206

00:09:37,326 --> 00:09:40,454

Well, anyway, he

he says, now what is Steve here for?

207

00:09:40,746 --> 00:09:43,165

And Donovan says, explain.

208

00:09:43,165 --> 00:09:45,626

Yeah. He's

writing a book on Nonresistance.

209

00:09:45,626 --> 00:09:49,005

And and his pastor said, nice

if it would work.

210

00:09:49,422 --> 00:09:52,383

Oh, what.

211

00:09:52,383 --> 00:09:53,676

I could keep on with story.

212

00:09:53,676 --> 00:09:55,511

I'm going to tell you one more,

and then we better do this thing.

213

00:09:57,388 --> 00:09:58,681

Was I had church.

214

00:09:58,681 --> 00:09:59,974

Yes. I was at church with him.

215

00:09:59,974 --> 00:10:03,519

I don't know why I was,

I was at church with him once.

216

00:10:04,312 --> 00:10:07,064

if you go to

how long were you in Jerusalem?

217

00:10:07,064 --> 00:10:08,232

Oh, it's just like a week.

218

00:10:08,232 --> 00:10:08,482

Okay.

219

00:10:08,482 --> 00:10:11,193

You probably didn't notice

that there are lots of Koreans.

220

00:10:11,193 --> 00:10:12,945

There are a lot of Christians in Korea.

221

00:10:12,945 --> 00:10:16,157

There are a lot of Koreans there

studying and a lot of Africans.

222

00:10:16,949 --> 00:10:18,909

And there were a lot of Koreans

and Africans

223

00:10:18,909 --> 00:10:21,912

and other people in in the church

that Donovan went to.

224

00:10:22,455 --> 00:10:24,957

And one Sunday, an African pastor,

225

00:10:24,957 --> 00:10:27,960

I do not know where he was from, preached.

226

00:10:28,169 --> 00:10:30,963

And only thing I can remember now

227

00:10:30,963 --> 00:10:33,716

is he said, This is God's land.

228

00:10:33,716 --> 00:10:34,759

He's blessing it.

229

00:10:34,759 --> 00:10:37,219

You can see it in a satellite photo.

230

00:10:37,219 --> 00:10:40,681

You can see the green part, and

then you can see the part that's brown.

231

00:10:40,931 --> 00:10:43,684

What he was saying was this on the on

232

00:10:43,684 --> 00:10:47,563

the Jewish side,

the land is, fertile and green.

233

00:10:47,563 --> 00:10:48,773

And it, it it does look.

234

00:10:48,773 --> 00:10:51,442

And on the other side, it's it's brown.

235

00:10:52,943 --> 00:10:54,320

The president

236

00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,323

of Bethlehem Bible College

was there that day.

237

00:10:57,990 --> 00:11:00,951

And he I think if I'm remembering right,

238

00:11:00,951 --> 00:11:05,623

he got up afterwards and said,

why do I have to hear this all the time?

239

00:11:05,998 --> 00:11:09,460

That that we there's something wrong

with us on the Arab side.

240

00:11:10,044 --> 00:11:14,298

And the leaders of the church said,

we'll let you preach one Sunday.

241

00:11:15,007 --> 00:11:16,592

And that particular Sunday I wasn't there.

242

00:11:16,592 --> 00:11:20,471

But Donovan told me he he oh, Saturday,

I mean, sorry, it was a Saturday

243

00:11:20,888 --> 00:11:23,891

that particular Saturday, Donovan said,

244

00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,728

what is his name

but the Shah or something like that.

245

00:11:27,728 --> 00:11:28,604

It's a long time.

246

00:11:28,604 --> 00:11:30,272

I don't remember his name right now,

247

00:11:30,272 --> 00:11:33,234

but he he said, Bashar,

whatever his name is, preached.

248

00:11:33,526 --> 00:11:36,529

I said, oh, good, because they always put

249

00:11:36,821 --> 00:11:39,740

the sermons on their website.

250

00:11:39,740 --> 00:11:43,577

So I kept watching that for weeks

and weeks and weeks.

251

00:11:43,994 --> 00:11:46,997

And after a while

I said, Donovan, it's not showing up.

252

00:11:47,039 --> 00:11:50,042

And we looked at it

and it had all the ones before

253

00:11:50,042 --> 00:11:53,170

and all the sermons

after Bashar gave his sermon

254

00:11:53,546 --> 00:11:56,590

as all the time

I looked, it never showed up.

255

00:11:56,590 --> 00:11:59,093

No, maybe it did later, I don't know.

256

00:11:59,093 --> 00:12:03,013

But, he he tried to present, you know,

257

00:12:03,514 --> 00:12:06,517

we're we're all people are God's people.

258

00:12:06,767 --> 00:12:10,271

And whether you're Muslim or Christian and

and there are a lot

259

00:12:10,271 --> 00:12:14,191

of Christians over there, but,

anyway, Wow.

260

00:12:15,109 --> 00:12:17,820

That's that's a hard one right there.

261

00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:18,404

That's

262

00:12:19,572 --> 00:12:22,408

that's one, you know, all of the,

all of the European

263

00:12:22,408 --> 00:12:26,620

and American Christians over

there were Zionist, except us.

264

00:12:27,872 --> 00:12:30,624

And oh,

and there are some liberal Mennonites.

265

00:12:30,624 --> 00:12:31,167

Donovan.

266

00:12:31,167 --> 00:12:34,336

Actually, I always if somebody asked me

what I am, I say beachy Amish.

267

00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,090

So I was always if they asked me,

I said, I'm beachy Amish

268

00:12:38,090 --> 00:12:40,259

and they and Donovan is two.

269

00:12:40,259 --> 00:12:42,261

But he would always say Mennonite.

270

00:12:42,261 --> 00:12:46,599

Well, one of his pastors

said, you really shouldn't say that,

271

00:12:46,849 --> 00:12:50,394

because the only Mennonites

we know over here are the liberals.

272

00:12:51,061 --> 00:12:54,023

And if the evangelical Christians

273

00:12:54,023 --> 00:12:57,026

are always rooting for Israel,

274

00:12:57,026 --> 00:13:00,029

the Mennonites are always rooting

for the Arabs.

275

00:13:00,029 --> 00:13:02,907

And so you're saying you're

you're saying you're a Mennonite.

276

00:13:02,907 --> 00:13:06,243

So then he started, if I'm remembering,

right, he started saying Long Beach Amish,

277

00:13:06,744 --> 00:13:09,497

but but the only churches

278

00:13:09,497 --> 00:13:12,541

you had were well, the the original

279

00:13:13,542 --> 00:13:15,711

Arab Orthodox churches are one thing.

280

00:13:15,711 --> 00:13:18,714

But as far as evangelical or Western,

281

00:13:18,756 --> 00:13:21,759

you had, the Zionist

282

00:13:22,051 --> 00:13:25,054

Christians from Europe in America

or the Mennonites,

283

00:13:25,262 --> 00:13:27,223

not many of them,

but still they were there,

284

00:13:27,223 --> 00:13:29,892

and they were so rooting

for two different sides.

285

00:13:29,892 --> 00:13:32,812

What I'm so happy about is,

286

00:13:32,812 --> 00:13:36,941

now there's the

the people that Donovan works with.

287

00:13:36,941 --> 00:13:40,778

They have, we have a little conservative

Anabaptist church there

288

00:13:40,945 --> 00:13:43,864

that preaches nonresistance.

289

00:13:43,864 --> 00:13:47,368

And so I'm glad there's a little flame

there like that.

290

00:13:47,701 --> 00:13:49,578

That's phenomenal. Man.

291

00:13:49,578 --> 00:13:53,916

When you start getting on sides like that,

it just starts getting messy fast.

292

00:13:55,251 --> 00:13:57,211

and that's that's that's really

that's really neat.

293

00:13:57,211 --> 00:13:57,670

I'm glad.

294

00:13:57,670 --> 00:14:00,631

I'm glad to hear those stories.

295

00:17:19,455 --> 00:17:22,458

What you start with is

what does Jesus call me to?

296

00:17:22,458 --> 00:17:24,418

What does He want me to do?

297

00:17:24,418 --> 00:17:25,461

What would be?

298

00:17:25,461 --> 00:17:28,464

What would loyalty look like to Jesus?

299

00:17:28,881 --> 00:17:31,717

in this situation,

that's where you start.

300

00:17:31,717 --> 00:17:32,217

And then

301

00:17:32,217 --> 00:17:35,971

you can answer these harder questions

after you've really established that.

302

00:17:41,894 --> 00:17:45,147

Well, welcome back to the Anabaptist

Perspectives podcast, Mr.

303

00:17:45,147 --> 00:17:47,149

Russell. It's great to have you on again.

304

00:17:47,149 --> 00:17:50,027

so we'll see where all this episode goes.

305

00:17:50,027 --> 00:17:53,822

But but we're recording this in 2024,

which is an election year,

306

00:17:53,906 --> 00:17:56,116

for here in America.

307

00:17:56,116 --> 00:18:01,371

And you make a, you start your book out

with an interesting point.

308

00:18:01,455 --> 00:18:03,415

and we'd actually just recorded

an episode

309

00:18:03,415 --> 00:18:07,503

on, Islam and, and Christianity and like,

310

00:18:07,503 --> 00:18:12,007

some of the clashes and chaos, really that

that's come from out out of all of that.

311

00:18:12,382 --> 00:18:14,968

but I want to bring it

a little bit more into the present day.

312

00:18:14,968 --> 00:18:16,762

And you actually start off the book.

313

00:18:16,762 --> 00:18:20,641

actually, it might be, chapter

two might not be the very start.

314

00:18:20,766 --> 00:18:22,017

Hold on just a second here.

315

00:18:22,017 --> 00:18:22,684

Yeah. So.

316

00:18:22,684 --> 00:18:25,354

So there's a chapter in here.

Why I wrote this book.

317

00:18:25,354 --> 00:18:28,982

And you mentioned how in,

in January of 1991, you remember

318

00:18:28,982 --> 00:18:33,112

watching the Gulf War go down live on TV,

which was one of the first really

319

00:18:33,112 --> 00:18:34,947

major conflicts that,

320

00:18:34,947 --> 00:18:38,367

you know, people were able to watch

in real time as it was happening.

321

00:18:39,284 --> 00:18:42,579

and of course, the Gulf War when Saddam

Hussein, you know, invades Kuwait

322

00:18:42,579 --> 00:18:44,665

and then the coalition

pushes him back out.

323

00:18:44,665 --> 00:18:48,961

so from the Western perspective,

it was a smashing success.

324

00:18:48,961 --> 00:18:50,587

I mean, we're like, they won the war.

325

00:18:50,587 --> 00:18:52,047

You know,

look how great we are, basically.

326

00:18:53,298 --> 00:18:56,593

you talk about, then you're in your Beachy

Amish Mennonite church.

327

00:18:56,593 --> 00:19:00,722

Then after this is happening and how

afterwards there's discussion happening.

328

00:19:00,764 --> 00:19:03,016

Obviously,

this is a significant world event

329

00:19:03,016 --> 00:19:04,810

and how this phraseology keeps coming up.

330

00:19:04,810 --> 00:19:09,439

if people saying our missiles and bombs,

you know, showing excitement about what

331

00:19:09,523 --> 00:19:13,277

these amazing weapons could do,

you know, this technology,

332

00:19:13,652 --> 00:19:16,488

and you said it,

it seemed like an excessive identification

333

00:19:16,488 --> 00:19:20,033

with the American armed forces

and their sophisticated, weaponry.

334

00:19:20,075 --> 00:19:23,078

This profoundly affected me

because of my own conversion history.

335

00:19:23,245 --> 00:19:24,371

So I don't know if you want to tell

336

00:19:24,371 --> 00:19:28,125

maybe a little bit of your personal story

of how you came to the Anabaptist

337

00:19:28,125 --> 00:19:29,209

tradition and then what?

338

00:19:29,209 --> 00:19:32,462

What about that phraseology disturbs

you even now?

339

00:19:32,546 --> 00:19:33,338

Yeah.

340

00:19:33,338 --> 00:19:38,343

when I was 17,

I went to, a Baptist church.

341

00:19:38,969 --> 00:19:41,972

one of my classmates had invited me

to go,

342

00:19:42,306 --> 00:19:46,310

and, it was, the man who was preaching

343

00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:49,313

was, a black preacher from Philadelphia.

344

00:19:49,646 --> 00:19:52,566

And, you know, I heard essentially

the same thing I would have heard

345

00:19:52,566 --> 00:19:55,861

at a Catholic church with two differences.

346

00:19:55,861 --> 00:19:59,198

One was

it was a little more vigorously delivered,

347

00:19:59,615 --> 00:20:05,162

and the other was he said, you have to,

you have to, make this personal.

348

00:20:05,162 --> 00:20:07,539

You have to make a personal commitment

to Christ.

349

00:20:07,539 --> 00:20:08,999

That was different.

350

00:20:08,999 --> 00:20:10,209

And so I did that.

351

00:20:10,209 --> 00:20:13,629

And, the next morning when I got up,

I realized

352

00:20:13,629 --> 00:20:17,132

two things I want I wanted to serve God.

353

00:20:17,132 --> 00:20:20,844

And as a Catholic young man,

I thought I would go into the priesthood.

354

00:20:21,011 --> 00:20:22,804

That didn't happen.

355

00:20:22,804 --> 00:20:26,600

But, and then I also knew

this was in the Vietnam War days.

356

00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,229

And I was in the last draft,

which came a couple of years later.

357

00:20:30,771 --> 00:20:32,522

but I knew that.

358

00:20:32,522 --> 00:20:35,734

I just knew that,

Christians don't kill anyone.

359

00:20:36,151 --> 00:20:38,028

This is a Baptist, was a Baptist preacher.

360

00:20:38,028 --> 00:20:39,696

So believe me, he didn't preach that.

361

00:20:39,696 --> 00:20:41,114

But it's just I knew this.

362

00:20:41,114 --> 00:20:44,743

It's, you know, God works with you

where you need to be worked with.

363

00:20:44,952 --> 00:20:47,955

And so those were two things

I wanted to serve God.

364

00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,750

And I, knew that I shouldn't kill.

365

00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:53,919

And so I, I was in the last draft.

366

00:20:53,919 --> 00:20:56,338

My number was so low,

didn't have to worry about it.

367

00:20:56,338 --> 00:20:59,049

But before we got to that place,

you know, I would think about this.

368

00:20:59,049 --> 00:21:02,511

Well, I know it's wrong to kill,

but I also love my country,

369

00:21:02,511 --> 00:21:03,720

and I obey the law.

370

00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,390

And if I get drafted, well,

I guess I go to the military.

371

00:21:06,390 --> 00:21:07,808

I just won't shoot anybody.

372

00:21:07,808 --> 00:21:13,272

Well, I, so my understanding

of Nonresistance was very,

373

00:21:13,855 --> 00:21:17,526

it was just the initial understanding

and it's grown much since then.

374

00:21:17,985 --> 00:21:22,489

But anyway,

so after a couple of years, I want,

375

00:21:22,489 --> 00:21:27,411

I wanted to go to a, non

resistant church.

376

00:21:27,411 --> 00:21:31,665

I started attending a Beachy Amish church

where some, some of my friends

377

00:21:31,665 --> 00:21:37,337

were, members, and, I liked the, the,

378

00:21:38,130 --> 00:21:42,009

well, I liked all of this stuff,

you know, they had good doctrine.

379

00:21:42,009 --> 00:21:44,803

They had good lifestyle.

they were non resistant.

380

00:21:44,803 --> 00:21:48,015

So I joined and then, years

381

00:21:48,015 --> 00:21:51,018

later, this was, like

you said it was in 91.

382

00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,939

I was in another church, but it was

same kind of church, but in Virginia.

383

00:21:57,232 --> 00:22:00,235

And, that's when the war started.

384

00:22:00,736 --> 00:22:03,113

And,

385

00:22:03,113 --> 00:22:06,158

I, I mean,

this is why I was in that church

386

00:22:06,158 --> 00:22:08,327

because we were non resistant.

387

00:22:08,327 --> 00:22:10,704

And I was just surprised

388

00:22:10,704 --> 00:22:15,083

that at the kind of identification

that some of these young men seemed

389

00:22:15,083 --> 00:22:21,048

to have with what our military was doing,

you know, I don't like that term.

390

00:22:21,048 --> 00:22:24,051

Our military, but that's how how

they would, how they would have said it.

391

00:22:24,968 --> 00:22:27,512

And, you know, I thought about it.

392

00:22:27,512 --> 00:22:31,558

I thought,

we hadn't had the draft for over a decade.

393

00:22:31,558 --> 00:22:33,185

I don't remember exactly.

394

00:22:33,185 --> 00:22:35,479

We now. Yeah, it was.

395

00:22:35,479 --> 00:22:37,564

Maybe almost two decades.

396

00:22:37,564 --> 00:22:42,361

And, you know,

I think maybe our churches slacked off

397

00:22:42,361 --> 00:22:46,281

in their preaching about nonresistance

and I think that's why

398

00:22:46,573 --> 00:22:50,660

there was maybe this, awe,

399

00:22:50,744 --> 00:22:53,663

that was a little bit bothering to me.

400

00:22:53,663 --> 00:22:56,333

And, and what I did after that was, I,

401

00:22:56,333 --> 00:22:59,336

I came up with a ten,

402

00:22:59,836 --> 00:23:04,257

evening presentation

of the history of Nonresistance,

403

00:23:04,257 --> 00:23:07,260

and I gave it at my church

and a few other places.

404

00:23:07,302 --> 00:23:09,679

I thought that we already know

what the Bible says, but

405

00:23:09,679 --> 00:23:12,682

we don't know what history has to say,

and I thought that might help.

406

00:23:12,766 --> 00:23:14,810

Later on, I saw that.

407

00:23:14,810 --> 00:23:18,313

Well, we need to even know

about the scriptural side of it.

408

00:23:18,730 --> 00:23:22,401

And, I felt God

urging me on to try to write a book.

409

00:23:22,484 --> 00:23:26,029

and so that's

how Overcoming Evil God's Way came to be.

410

00:23:26,571 --> 00:23:31,701

It's it's the key reason that I am

in the kind of church that I'm in. Wow.

411

00:23:31,868 --> 00:23:34,663

So, okay,

so I can see why that would be like, whoa.

412

00:23:34,663 --> 00:23:36,498

Okay. This is you know,

this is a bit of a surprise.

413

00:23:36,498 --> 00:23:40,252

So now that that's Gulf War, but,

you know, since then, America

414

00:23:40,252 --> 00:23:42,129

has been pretty involved

in the Middle East,

415

00:23:42,129 --> 00:23:46,007

you know, since, and I would actually say

it's one of the defining things for

416

00:23:46,007 --> 00:23:49,928

my generation is just,

you know, that's about all I can remember

417

00:23:49,970 --> 00:23:54,015

from from early days of school up to now,

you know, is America

418

00:23:54,015 --> 00:23:55,851

fighting different conflicts?

419

00:23:55,851 --> 00:23:59,604

in, in the Middle East and of course,

not just America, other countries as well.

420

00:24:00,021 --> 00:24:02,983

and almost a sense that I've picked up

421

00:24:02,983 --> 00:24:06,445

from some of our people in our anabaptist

churches of like, oh, well, yeah.

422

00:24:06,445 --> 00:24:09,990

Like America is like going to come fix

this or, you know, or whatever.

423

00:24:09,990 --> 00:24:12,075

And then again, with this

being an election year,

424

00:24:12,075 --> 00:24:15,162

there's a sense of, oh, if just the right

if the right person gets in, we can

425

00:24:15,162 --> 00:24:18,582

we can fix this,

you know, idea and, yeah,

426

00:24:19,124 --> 00:24:22,127

where do we how do we even start talking

about those kinds of things?

427

00:24:22,169 --> 00:24:25,714

Well, you know, one thing I'd like to

bring out that was that that's in my book.

428

00:24:25,714 --> 00:24:28,967

I read a Palestinian Muslim

429

00:24:29,968 --> 00:24:32,304

who described how he understood

430

00:24:32,304 --> 00:24:35,307

Islam, Judaism and Christianity.

431

00:24:35,807 --> 00:24:40,645

And he, he was,

not very impressed with Islam, though.

432

00:24:40,645 --> 00:24:42,981

That's that was his tradition.

433

00:24:42,981 --> 00:24:46,902

He said he felt that the Jews were,

pretty much in the same boat

434

00:24:46,902 --> 00:24:49,905

and that they were, they were,

435

00:24:50,113 --> 00:24:52,908

you know,

willing to seek vengeance and all that.

436

00:24:52,908 --> 00:24:56,953

And he said what he hears

the Christians say is, we don't want that.

437

00:24:57,287 --> 00:25:00,290

But he said, I've never seen anyone live

like that.

438

00:25:00,499 --> 00:25:01,666

So. Yeah.

439

00:25:01,666 --> 00:25:05,712

And think, well, they're only you know,

most Christians are not non resistant.

440

00:25:05,712 --> 00:25:07,297

They should be, but they're not.

441

00:25:07,297 --> 00:25:11,968

And so even the Christians he met,

he wasn't he heard what they taught.

442

00:25:12,177 --> 00:25:15,430

He knew what Jesus said

but he hadn't seen that.

443

00:25:15,764 --> 00:25:19,351

And that is part of the problem.

444

00:25:19,643 --> 00:25:22,729

If you if you try to counter

445

00:25:23,230 --> 00:25:28,193

evil with evil or violence with violence,

you only breed more violence.

446

00:25:28,193 --> 00:25:32,030

And so America going over there has,

447

00:25:32,239 --> 00:25:37,327

has essentially stirred up

more and more terrorists, more

448

00:25:37,327 --> 00:25:41,122

and more people that want to join ISIS

or Hamas or whatever.

449

00:25:41,456 --> 00:25:46,044

And, and that fits their theology

better than it does Christian theology.

450

00:25:46,461 --> 00:25:49,464

Islam is about using violence

451

00:25:49,506 --> 00:25:52,217

to subdue the world to Islam.

452

00:25:52,217 --> 00:25:55,720

And then they don't exactly coerce people

453

00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,266

to become Muslim, but

they put pressure on you to become Muslim.

454

00:25:59,474 --> 00:26:02,769

So they believe that Islam

should take over the whole world,

455

00:26:03,061 --> 00:26:06,064

and eventually everyone

will become Muslim,

456

00:26:06,523 --> 00:26:09,943

with some, some amount of pressure.

457

00:26:10,402 --> 00:26:12,988

That's not the Christian message at all.

458

00:26:12,988 --> 00:26:17,367

And, one of the words I like to use

when I talk about what the church's job

459

00:26:17,367 --> 00:26:21,413

is, the state's job is to maintain order,

460

00:26:21,413 --> 00:26:25,208

that's the sword,

and to encourage people to do good things.

461

00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:28,962

Those are the two things that are

in the scriptures that the church is,

462

00:26:28,962 --> 00:26:31,965

the state is supposed to do the church.

463

00:26:32,215 --> 00:26:35,385

I'm going to use words

that aren't quite in the scriptures,

464

00:26:35,385 --> 00:26:39,306

but the idea is

we are supposed to woo people to Jesus.

465

00:26:39,556 --> 00:26:40,932

You know, wooing is what you do.

466

00:26:40,932 --> 00:26:43,727

When you got your wife,

you wooed her to you.

467

00:26:43,727 --> 00:26:47,230

Well, we're supposed to woo

people to Jesus and then

468

00:26:47,564 --> 00:26:50,859

teach them more,

more and more what He has to say.

469

00:26:50,859 --> 00:26:53,695

So our our job is not coercion.

470

00:26:53,695 --> 00:26:58,074

Our job is to show through our lives

what Jesus does

471

00:26:58,074 --> 00:27:01,077

and then say,

this is what you really want.

472

00:27:01,286 --> 00:27:06,291

And, force violence,

only stirs up more force and violence.

473

00:27:06,291 --> 00:27:10,837

And, Christians should not be engaged

in that at all.

474

00:27:11,004 --> 00:27:14,924

When they do, they they lose the argument.

475

00:27:15,133 --> 00:27:18,428

I'll tell you, when I

when I first became a Christian,

476

00:27:19,304 --> 00:27:21,473

I was very moved by the,

477

00:27:21,473 --> 00:27:24,559

abortion,

I by the fact that the United States

478

00:27:24,559 --> 00:27:28,396

had allowed pretty much, abortion

479

00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:31,399

everywhere for about any reason.

480

00:27:31,399 --> 00:27:35,654

And so I actually voted twice

after I became a Christian.

481

00:27:35,654 --> 00:27:36,404

And I

482

00:27:37,572 --> 00:27:38,114

marched

483

00:27:38,114 --> 00:27:41,117

sometimes in the pro-life march in DC.

484

00:27:41,451 --> 00:27:46,915

And then one day

I realized that it wasn't directly to me,

485

00:27:46,915 --> 00:27:49,918

but I heard a person who was on the other

side,

486

00:27:51,503 --> 00:27:53,922

talking about these people,

these Christians

487

00:27:53,922 --> 00:27:58,218

who try to impose their morality

on someone who's not a Christian.

488

00:27:58,885 --> 00:28:02,055

And I started to realize, well,

that's not right, okay.

489

00:28:02,055 --> 00:28:04,391

To try to coerce someone

to live the right way.

490

00:28:04,391 --> 00:28:05,934

That's not right.

491

00:28:05,934 --> 00:28:08,103

And then I realized,

492

00:28:08,103 --> 00:28:11,106

from hearing her talk more that

493

00:28:11,773 --> 00:28:15,777

people like me weren't just putting a wall

between ourselves and her.

494

00:28:16,444 --> 00:28:19,447

I was putting a wall between her and Jesus

495

00:28:19,489 --> 00:28:22,492

because she saw me

as one of those Jesus people.

496

00:28:22,784 --> 00:28:24,285

And so Jesus is like that.

497

00:28:24,285 --> 00:28:28,248

Jesus tries to, tell me what to do.

498

00:28:28,498 --> 00:28:31,376

Now. He may tell us what to do, but that's

499

00:28:31,376 --> 00:28:34,379

after we surrender to Him,

after we see what He's done for us.

500

00:28:34,504 --> 00:28:36,172

She hadn't seen that.

501

00:28:36,172 --> 00:28:39,175

And so, that really

502

00:28:39,259 --> 00:28:43,513

I already was non resistant, but I didn't

realize I was making a mistake there

503

00:28:43,888 --> 00:28:47,392

by being political

and by doing those demonstrations.

504

00:28:49,102 --> 00:28:51,020

Everything that Christians do

505

00:28:51,020 --> 00:28:55,525

should be, to draw people,

not to force them.

506

00:28:57,235 --> 00:28:59,487

And so this is where things get

507

00:28:59,487 --> 00:29:02,699

kind of messy

because it, it seems seems to me.

508

00:29:02,699 --> 00:29:04,868

And I wish we had better data

I guess on this,

509

00:29:04,868 --> 00:29:08,288

but it seems that our Anabaptist people

are starting to lose that

510

00:29:08,538 --> 00:29:10,331

and getting very involved

in different things.

511

00:29:10,331 --> 00:29:12,709

And we were talking off camera about what

some of those are.

512

00:29:12,709 --> 00:29:14,210

Maybe we won't get into specifics.

513

00:29:14,210 --> 00:29:15,712

but, you know, where anabaptists

514

00:29:15,712 --> 00:29:18,715

are getting pretty aggressive

in, you know, politics and like,

515

00:29:18,882 --> 00:29:22,177

if we can just change this thing,

then then we can fix that.

516

00:29:22,177 --> 00:29:26,723

And, you know, really getting mixed up

in this stuff and, and I just

517

00:29:26,723 --> 00:29:30,935

it feels like we, we are really missing

some critical pieces here, Well.

518

00:29:31,102 --> 00:29:35,106

everything

Jesus did was more in that category

519

00:29:35,106 --> 00:29:38,860

of wooing,

you know, inviting people, wooing people.

520

00:29:39,152 --> 00:29:42,155

And He did warn them,

if you don't come to me,

521

00:29:42,489 --> 00:29:45,658

you will go in a direction

you don't want to go.

522

00:29:45,700 --> 00:29:47,660

You're going to end up in hell.

523

00:29:47,660 --> 00:29:52,624

Just to be blunt, but He always offered

524

00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,294

the good thing to come to Him and

525

00:29:56,294 --> 00:29:59,297

and He will give us rest.

526

00:29:59,798 --> 00:30:01,382

and that's what we're supposed

527

00:30:01,382 --> 00:30:04,385

to be offering, to others.

528

00:30:04,511 --> 00:30:08,598

And, even if you don't want to

look at what Jesus himself says,

529

00:30:09,933 --> 00:30:13,436

the political realm

is not the place to get change.

530

00:30:14,270 --> 00:30:18,900

If you if one side gets 51% of the vote,

then they get to write the laws.

531

00:30:19,150 --> 00:30:21,945

But the next year,

when there's another election,

532

00:30:21,945 --> 00:30:25,657

the other side might get 51% of the vote

and then they can change the laws.

533

00:30:25,990 --> 00:30:28,868

This isn't what this isn't worth it.

534

00:30:28,868 --> 00:30:32,997

What's worth

it is to one by one change the hearts

535

00:30:33,665 --> 00:30:36,501

and just changing the laws.

536

00:30:36,501 --> 00:30:38,294

it has an effect.

537

00:30:38,294 --> 00:30:40,171

And I'm not saying

it doesn't have an effect,

538

00:30:40,171 --> 00:30:42,966

but it's not what we should be

looking for.

539

00:30:42,966 --> 00:30:45,802

We should be looking for getting people

540

00:30:45,802 --> 00:30:49,889

fully invested in being a Jesus person.

541

00:30:49,889 --> 00:30:52,892

You know, looking to Him

to know how to live

542

00:30:53,101 --> 00:30:56,104

and getting our

our life from Him, actually.

543

00:30:56,437 --> 00:30:58,439

And, you know, I can't imagine.

544

00:30:58,439 --> 00:31:01,943

Jesus, I'm just going to say

it, storming the Capitol

545

00:31:02,193 --> 00:31:04,320

or even protesting like I used to.

546

00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,155

I don't see Him doing that.

547

00:31:06,155 --> 00:31:09,993

I see Him, caring about the down

548

00:31:09,993 --> 00:31:13,913

and out and dealing with those people

549

00:31:13,913 --> 00:31:17,208

personally, rather than, you know,

getting the government to do it.

550

00:31:17,876 --> 00:31:20,461

That's that's not, that's a dead end.

551

00:31:20,461 --> 00:31:21,963

And it changes so quick.

552

00:31:21,963 --> 00:31:26,259

You know, one side might be in for a while

and, and get what they want.

553

00:31:26,259 --> 00:31:27,927

And the oh that's another thing too.

554

00:31:27,927 --> 00:31:31,264

I just want to say this when I look at,

okay, we have two parties

555

00:31:31,264 --> 00:31:34,267

in the United States, the Democrats

and the Republicans.

556

00:31:34,601 --> 00:31:37,604

Some of the things that the Democrats want

557

00:31:37,937 --> 00:31:41,524

are at least,

something like what the Bible talks about.

558

00:31:42,066 --> 00:31:46,029

And the same thing for the Republicans,

but it's a different set of things.

559

00:31:46,446 --> 00:31:49,365

But that's not where you get

it's not government

560

00:31:49,365 --> 00:31:50,700

that's actually going to deliver.

561

00:31:50,700 --> 00:31:55,955

So the Democrats seem to care more

for the down and out, and the Republicans

562

00:31:55,955 --> 00:32:00,668

seem to care seem to more about morality

and things like that.

563

00:32:00,668 --> 00:32:03,004

At least that's how it's often looked at.

564

00:32:03,004 --> 00:32:07,091

Well, you don't get either of those things

through the government.

565

00:32:07,383 --> 00:32:12,680

You get you get some, you get some

financial, relief for the poor.

566

00:32:13,097 --> 00:32:16,142

And, the government says that you can,

567

00:32:17,727 --> 00:32:18,728

make your, you know,

568

00:32:18,728 --> 00:32:21,731

develop your own business or something

like that to give you that freedom.

569

00:32:22,106 --> 00:32:26,694

But, really,

what what we ought to be striving for

570

00:32:26,694 --> 00:32:30,073

in our own lives, in the lives of others,

is something that comes

571

00:32:30,073 --> 00:32:32,408

from a heart change,

not from what the law.

572

00:32:32,408 --> 00:32:34,869

And in fact, we should be able to live.

573

00:32:34,869 --> 00:32:39,207

Christians should be able to live under

an authoritarian government like Nero's

574

00:32:39,624 --> 00:32:40,959

or a democracy.

575

00:32:40,959 --> 00:32:43,670

Well,

that that shouldn't be our main issue.

576

00:32:43,670 --> 00:32:45,004

there were many Christians.

577

00:32:45,004 --> 00:32:47,048

They suffered,

but there were many Christians

578

00:32:47,048 --> 00:32:49,717

who lived under the Soviet Union.

579

00:32:49,717 --> 00:32:53,221

And they gave a good witness

when the Soviet Union

580

00:32:53,221 --> 00:32:56,224

fell, a lot of people who

581

00:32:57,141 --> 00:32:59,519

while communism was in power,

they were afraid.

582

00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:01,104

And sometimes they were communists.

583

00:33:01,104 --> 00:33:03,564

But they were they

they they knew about the Christians.

584

00:33:03,564 --> 00:33:04,983

They probably were curious.

585

00:33:04,983 --> 00:33:06,818

Why are they so strange?

586

00:33:06,818 --> 00:33:10,488

I visited Latvia

right after it became free,

587

00:33:10,947 --> 00:33:14,492

and a large number of people

who used to be communists

588

00:33:15,159 --> 00:33:18,454

came to the church,

heard the gospel and gave their lives.

589

00:33:18,871 --> 00:33:21,624

And I talked to some of them and they said

590

00:33:21,624 --> 00:33:24,252

while communism was in power,

591

00:33:24,252 --> 00:33:27,505

I thought it was right,

and I gave my life for it.

592

00:33:27,797 --> 00:33:30,800

And then it fell and my life felt empty.

593

00:33:31,134 --> 00:33:34,762

And then I saw these people,

and I wondered, and I came in a church.

594

00:33:34,762 --> 00:33:36,806

I never would have come in a church

before.

595

00:33:36,806 --> 00:33:41,769

And I heard something that really made

sense to me, touched my heart.

596

00:33:42,145 --> 00:33:45,189

That's what you need,

the communists tried to make

597

00:33:45,189 --> 00:33:48,192

the Christians communists

by coercion didn't work.

598

00:33:48,651 --> 00:33:52,613

The Christians were there

after the after there was freedom.

599

00:33:52,613 --> 00:33:57,493

They were there and they were the, the

the former communists had seen them

600

00:33:57,493 --> 00:34:01,873

and and knew they were strange

and in curiosity went into the church

601

00:34:02,373 --> 00:34:05,626

and they heard something

that that rang a bell in their heart.

602

00:34:06,377 --> 00:34:11,257

So that's, that's the thing that

that's what that's how we change people.

603

00:34:11,716 --> 00:34:14,761

That's how we change the culture,

one person at a time.

604

00:34:16,054 --> 00:34:19,057

so when we're

when we're looking at something like that,

605

00:34:19,098 --> 00:34:22,351

I guess I'm thinking

current day right now, we've got some

606

00:34:22,852 --> 00:34:26,314

some kind of wild stuff happening,

you know, in the world, you got the,

607

00:34:26,314 --> 00:34:31,360

the latest Israel, Israeli war

happening in Gaza against Hamas.

608

00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,947

And you also have,

you know, American warships bombing,

609

00:34:35,406 --> 00:34:38,993

positions inside Yemen because of the,

the Houthis firing missiles

610

00:34:39,243 --> 00:34:42,080

at cargo ships,

just some kind of just wild stuff

611

00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,791

looking at that from,

you know, we're both in America

612

00:34:44,791 --> 00:34:47,460

and the natural instinct

because I'm you know,

613

00:34:47,460 --> 00:34:50,463

we're American citizens is to be like,

yeah, that's right.

614

00:34:50,463 --> 00:34:52,090

You know, the allies, our allies

615

00:34:52,090 --> 00:34:55,093

or America

or whatever is, is doing doing their job.

616

00:34:55,468 --> 00:34:58,513

How Again, that's clearly

something that you were pointing out like,

617

00:34:58,721 --> 00:34:59,388

be careful with that.

618

00:34:59,388 --> 00:35:02,391

Like, that's not the right mindset

as that's followers of Jesus.

619

00:35:02,683 --> 00:35:07,313

How do we check that spirit in ourselves

and in our churches and and instead

620

00:35:07,313 --> 00:35:11,109

keep the focus on Jesus and His kingdom

instead of getting all wrapped up in

621

00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:11,567

this stuff?

622

00:35:13,528 --> 00:35:16,989

Well, I I'm not 100% sure.

623

00:35:17,448 --> 00:35:21,702

part of what I think

is the reason that we're wrapped up in it

624

00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,123

is we have a lot of wealth,

625

00:35:25,706 --> 00:35:30,711

and I think that some of us

are afraid that

626

00:35:31,254 --> 00:35:34,006

that could be taken away from us,

either by our own government

627

00:35:34,006 --> 00:35:37,927

if it goes the wrong way,

or if we're taken over

628

00:35:37,927 --> 00:35:41,180

by, you know, and if another country

conquers us or whatever.

629

00:35:41,430 --> 00:35:44,433

I, I think there's a fear,

630

00:35:44,433 --> 00:35:49,230

at least among some,

that what we're so used to, which is nice.

631

00:35:49,230 --> 00:35:51,399

I mean,

632

00:35:51,399 --> 00:35:54,277

God wants to give us a good life.

633

00:35:54,277 --> 00:35:57,280

Jesus said, I came to give you life

and life more abundant.

634

00:35:58,239 --> 00:35:59,740

He wants to give us a good life.

635

00:35:59,740 --> 00:36:02,785

I know in the in this fallen

world, it's there's a lot of suffering.

636

00:36:03,786 --> 00:36:06,330

but that's

part of what should draw us to the gospel

637

00:36:06,330 --> 00:36:09,333

that really, God wants to give us

what is good.

638

00:36:09,458 --> 00:36:12,628

We have what is we

have what we think is good anyway

639

00:36:12,628 --> 00:36:15,006

here in our country.

And I think a lot of the

640

00:36:15,006 --> 00:36:18,009

thing that motivates us is

we're afraid we'll lose it.

641

00:36:18,968 --> 00:36:20,928

And so, hey, how do you save it?

642

00:36:20,928 --> 00:36:23,764

You get involved politically

and you know what?

643

00:36:23,764 --> 00:36:26,017

It feels like you're doing something.

644

00:36:26,017 --> 00:36:28,436

You know, we got we got so and so elected.

645

00:36:28,436 --> 00:36:30,479

I went and voted.

646

00:36:30,479 --> 00:36:36,652

And so there's, there's this initial sense

that, I'm actually doing something

647

00:36:36,652 --> 00:36:41,199

that's good working one by one

is it takes a long time.

648

00:36:41,866 --> 00:36:45,536

some people say, no,

it may take a long time

649

00:36:45,661 --> 00:36:50,625

until you hear somebody actually say

yes to Jesus, but, and so I think that

650

00:36:50,625 --> 00:36:55,504

the immediacy of the political process

probably drives it,

651

00:36:55,963 --> 00:36:59,717

the fear that what we, the good things

that we have, we're going to lose.

652

00:36:59,717 --> 00:37:02,678

I think that's part of the thing

that drives it.

653

00:37:02,678 --> 00:37:07,141

I hope it's not for us,

but I think some people have,

654

00:37:07,683 --> 00:37:11,187

lost a real connection with Jesus

655

00:37:11,979 --> 00:37:15,233

and have replaced, political,

656

00:37:15,816 --> 00:37:18,819

connection, a political, loyalty.

657

00:37:19,153 --> 00:37:24,116

I hope that's not any of our people, but,

once again, it's it's so immediate.

658

00:37:24,116 --> 00:37:27,828

You can do it and you can see that you

you go out and talk to people,

659

00:37:28,079 --> 00:37:33,876

you got to vote for so-and-so,

and then maybe so-and-so wins, but, the

660

00:37:34,043 --> 00:37:39,840

the Christian witnessing

and working with people takes a long time.

661

00:37:41,133 --> 00:37:45,721

So if there's a practical thing

people can take away from this episode

662

00:37:45,721 --> 00:37:48,849

is, again, we look at things in the world

that are not the way they should be.

663

00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:51,811

It's that, more organic.

664

00:37:51,811 --> 00:37:55,523

I guess it's a slow approach

of working with people individually,

665

00:37:55,856 --> 00:37:59,652

bringing redemption into the world

through Jesus and His kingdom

666

00:38:00,236 --> 00:38:03,572

through those means, whatever what,

however practically you want to, you know,

667

00:38:03,572 --> 00:38:08,035

to live that out, instead of being like

and kind of like we'd said earlier, well,

668

00:38:08,035 --> 00:38:11,539

you know, if we can get so-and-so

in or whatever, we'll fix this, or America

669

00:38:11,539 --> 00:38:14,542

can go over there to wherever Middle East

and we'll fix it.

670

00:38:15,001 --> 00:38:17,044

just say no, that's

that's not what we're doing.

671

00:38:17,044 --> 00:38:18,421

It hasn't gotten fixed.

672

00:38:18,421 --> 00:38:21,048

You know, America has been involved.

673

00:38:21,048 --> 00:38:24,343

And, right now, I think that that,

674

00:38:25,594 --> 00:38:27,638

you would be hard pressed to prove

675

00:38:27,638 --> 00:38:30,891

that the situation in the Middle

East is better than it was

676

00:38:31,309 --> 00:38:35,813

when the United States first went in there

and fought against Saddam Hussein.

677

00:38:35,813 --> 00:38:38,649

I think you would be hard

pressed to prove that.

678

00:38:38,649 --> 00:38:42,361

Yeah I, I, I would, I would, I could

definitely see what you're saying there.

679

00:38:42,361 --> 00:38:45,197

And I think that's just the point of.

680

00:38:45,197 --> 00:38:48,451

It's such a different methodology

of what you see Jesus portraying.

681

00:38:48,451 --> 00:38:52,663

But yet again, somehow our people

get wrapped up in that and since like,

682

00:38:53,789 --> 00:38:57,585

yeah, yeah, it's a struggle is like,

how do we keep that from happening?

683

00:38:57,585 --> 00:39:00,880

But it's so easy, the temptation is

so there, you know, for for our people.

684

00:39:01,130 --> 00:39:04,425

Well I would hope that each person

who is really non resistant

685

00:39:04,425 --> 00:39:07,428

would at least speak up a little bit

when they hear,

686

00:39:07,470 --> 00:39:11,057

someone saying some of these things,

even if it's only asking questions.

687

00:39:11,057 --> 00:39:13,851

Well, you know,

where do you get that from the Scripture.

688

00:39:13,851 --> 00:39:14,602

Yeah.

689

00:39:14,602 --> 00:39:17,605

You know, and,

and because I can give you a whole lot of

690

00:39:17,938 --> 00:39:21,108

scriptures that would point,

I think, in the other direction.

691

00:39:21,442 --> 00:39:27,031

And, so, you know, have a little bit of,

think about it yourself.

692

00:39:27,656 --> 00:39:32,787

one of the things that I tell in the book

is, you know, if I meet somebody and,

693

00:39:32,787 --> 00:39:35,790

he's, let's say he's

an evangelical Christian,

694

00:39:35,873 --> 00:39:37,917

he's probably

not going to be non resistant.

695

00:39:37,917 --> 00:39:41,337

And he may immediately say to me, well,

what would you do

696

00:39:41,337 --> 00:39:43,464

if your wife were attacked?

697

00:39:43,464 --> 00:39:48,511

And one of the things that I believe is

you don't start with difficult problems.

698

00:39:48,928 --> 00:39:53,724

There's a saying bad, bad, cases.

699

00:39:53,724 --> 00:39:55,684

Bad legal cases make bad law.

700

00:39:56,685 --> 00:39:58,646

So you don't start with the hard stuff.

701

00:39:58,646 --> 00:40:01,649

What you start with is

what does Jesus call me to?

702

00:40:01,649 --> 00:40:03,692

What does he want me to do?

703

00:40:03,692 --> 00:40:07,696

What would be

what would loyalty look like to Jesus?

704

00:40:08,406 --> 00:40:10,950

in this situation, that's where you start.

705

00:40:10,950 --> 00:40:11,409

And then

706

00:40:11,409 --> 00:40:15,204

you can answer these harder questions

after you've really established that.

707

00:40:15,454 --> 00:40:19,917

And so that's what I would really like

to ask a lot of our people to do really

708

00:40:20,668 --> 00:40:24,755

look closely and clearly

what is Jesus calling us to.

709

00:40:25,548 --> 00:40:28,551

And I would say history

gives us a little bit of help there.

710

00:40:28,551 --> 00:40:31,929

The early church,

as I said in another episode, is

711

00:40:32,471 --> 00:40:36,934

was non resistant

and they were a lot closer to His time

712

00:40:36,934 --> 00:40:39,979

and I think they reflected much

better what He had taught.

713

00:40:42,022 --> 00:40:42,690

Yeah,

714

00:40:42,690 --> 00:40:45,693

it's wow, there's a lot to think about,

you know, and.

715

00:40:46,235 --> 00:40:46,485

Yeah.

716

00:40:46,485 --> 00:40:49,697

And I think that's the one piece to

to leave with people is,

717

00:40:49,738 --> 00:40:51,031

you know, this isn't always easy.

718

00:40:51,031 --> 00:40:52,908

You know, there's often

suffering involved.

719

00:40:52,908 --> 00:40:58,205

and, as you're saying

sometimes that the politics and military

720

00:40:58,205 --> 00:41:01,208

and all that can feel like there's

some kind of immediate of

721

00:41:01,500 --> 00:41:04,795

that we're making a difference,

you know, whereas the slow approach,

722

00:41:04,795 --> 00:41:08,883

slow approach or the organic,

the redemption that Jesus brings,

723

00:41:08,883 --> 00:41:10,676

even if you, you know, look at like a

His life

724

00:41:10,676 --> 00:41:12,470

and ministry,

you know, working with these people,

725

00:41:12,470 --> 00:41:15,473

you know, years in three years

with the disciples, etc..

726

00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,976

it feels like that involves

a lot more patience.

727

00:41:18,976 --> 00:41:21,103

Is that a fair way of saying this.

728

00:41:21,103 --> 00:41:22,688

that is a really good way to say it.

729

00:41:22,688 --> 00:41:25,608

there is a really good book

I'm going to it's not my book.

730

00:41:25,608 --> 00:41:29,361

There's a really good book called

The Patient Ferment of the Early Church

731

00:41:29,653 --> 00:41:34,783

by Alan Kreider and, and,

and one of the points that he makes

732

00:41:35,034 --> 00:41:37,328

is that the Christians,

733

00:41:37,328 --> 00:41:40,915

the Christian virtues were very different

than the Roman virtues.

734

00:41:40,915 --> 00:41:46,337

The Roman virtues were loyalty and courage

so that we defend our country.

735

00:41:46,629 --> 00:41:50,841

the Roman man, goes and joins

the military and picks up the sword.

736

00:41:51,217 --> 00:41:54,970

The Christians, on the other hand,

were about humility and patience.

737

00:41:55,429 --> 00:41:58,390

And in the Roman world,

who was humble and patient,

738

00:41:58,390 --> 00:42:01,936

women and slaves and children, not men.

739

00:42:02,937 --> 00:42:03,729

And so,

740

00:42:03,729 --> 00:42:07,691

that was one of the things

that the church had to overcome.

741

00:42:07,858 --> 00:42:10,861

But it's also one of the things

that that appealed to people.

742

00:42:10,861 --> 00:42:12,988

But it's also one of the beautiful parts.

It's beautiful, it's beautiful.

743

00:42:12,988 --> 00:42:13,489

That's what I'm saying.

744

00:42:13,489 --> 00:42:15,658

It did appeal.

745

00:42:15,658 --> 00:42:18,702

Christianity.

we can hardly get this either.

746

00:42:18,702 --> 00:42:22,748

But if you can really put yourself

in a pagan Roman mind,

747

00:42:23,457 --> 00:42:28,420

they were astonished

and and and disgusted at the Christians.

748

00:42:28,754 --> 00:42:31,757

You know, we need courage, but wow,

749

00:42:32,007 --> 00:42:34,843

they what they're doing

seems to make a difference.

750

00:42:34,843 --> 00:42:37,263

You know, they were

they were really in conflict.

751

00:42:37,263 --> 00:42:40,975

And so you had

the Christian had to work through that,

752

00:42:40,975 --> 00:42:45,604

help him see that, in fact,

courage is a good thing for Christians,

753

00:42:45,604 --> 00:42:49,191

but it's but it's not picking up the sword

and killing your enemy.

754

00:42:49,483 --> 00:42:51,944

It's being willing to die for Jesus,

you know?

755

00:42:51,944 --> 00:42:56,615

So so that even the Roman virtues

had some reality to them,

756

00:42:56,949 --> 00:42:58,284

but they were being misdirected.

757

00:42:58,284 --> 00:43:02,037

So the Christian could help

the Roman see that,

758

00:43:02,037 --> 00:43:05,624

yes, courage is important,

but so is humility, and so is patience.

759

00:43:06,083 --> 00:43:09,086

And, I think,

760

00:43:09,128 --> 00:43:12,131

I, Alan Kreider

makes this, point in his book

761

00:43:12,298 --> 00:43:17,970

that as Christians, as the church

and the state got mixed closer and closer,

762

00:43:18,304 --> 00:43:22,933

they they started pushing patience

into special little places.

763

00:43:22,933 --> 00:43:25,728

It wasn't

big in the Christian life anymore.

764

00:43:25,728 --> 00:43:30,941

And, so I think I think I like that

you use the word patience.

765

00:43:30,941 --> 00:43:33,944

It really must be part of the Christian,

766

00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,947

way of living.

767

00:43:36,947 --> 00:43:38,032

Yeah. Yes.

768

00:43:38,032 --> 00:43:40,075

Maybe that's something

we can can make sure

769

00:43:40,075 --> 00:43:43,037

and leave with the audience as they

listen to this is

770

00:43:43,037 --> 00:43:47,374

is having that patience to faithfully,

I think, is a keyword

771

00:43:47,625 --> 00:43:51,712

bringing Christ's redemption

to the people around you, your community,

772

00:43:51,712 --> 00:43:55,424

your whatever, whatever responsible

sectors of responsibility,

773

00:43:55,424 --> 00:43:57,259

that you've been given

that God has given you.

774

00:43:57,259 --> 00:43:59,637

That's

what you're bringing to those areas.

775

00:43:59,637 --> 00:44:00,929

Wow. Yeah.

776

00:44:00,929 --> 00:44:04,016

One year you may want to drop this.

777

00:44:04,016 --> 00:44:07,311

I don't know, but one year,

the our graduating class

778

00:44:07,978 --> 00:44:13,359

took their motto from, Lord of the Rings,

and it was,

779

00:44:13,942 --> 00:44:17,196

go where you must go

and hope it's in the two towers.

780

00:44:17,863 --> 00:44:22,951

And, I told them, you missed

the first sentence right in front of go

781

00:44:22,951 --> 00:44:28,165

where you must go and hope and

and so for me, I made this my motto.

782

00:44:28,165 --> 00:44:30,876

Now have patience.

783

00:44:30,876 --> 00:44:32,169

Go where you must go.

784

00:44:32,169 --> 00:44:32,628

And hope.

785

00:44:32,628 --> 00:44:35,631

And I think that that describes

the Christian life.

786

00:44:36,006 --> 00:44:39,176

Be patient. You don't see everything. You.

787

00:44:39,176 --> 00:44:44,556

You aren't the person you should be that

Jesus is trying to make you be patient.

788

00:44:45,099 --> 00:44:46,141

Go where you must go.

789

00:44:46,141 --> 00:44:48,686

You don't know where that is,

but God will lead you.

790

00:44:48,686 --> 00:44:50,521

Go where you must go and hope

791

00:44:51,563 --> 00:44:52,606

to me that that

792

00:44:52,606 --> 00:44:55,609

describes the Christian life completely.

793

00:44:56,568 --> 00:44:58,404

That's so good. Wow.

794

00:44:58,404 --> 00:45:00,406

So as we,

795

00:45:00,406 --> 00:45:02,658

wrap this episode up,

is there anything else you would like to

796

00:45:02,658 --> 00:45:04,910

to leave our audience with?

797

00:45:04,910 --> 00:45:07,329

I'll just say the motto again.

798

00:45:07,329 --> 00:45:08,872

Yeah. Have patience.

799

00:45:08,872 --> 00:45:10,958

Go where you must go and hope.

800

00:45:10,958 --> 00:45:14,044

And if you do that, God will be with you.

801

00:45:14,294 --> 00:45:18,757

Not that doesn't mean

there won't be suffering or pain, but

802

00:45:19,007 --> 00:45:24,304

do those things, and and the end result

will be the best, and we will be rewarded.

803

00:45:24,304 --> 00:45:27,015

Finally. Wow.

804

00:45:27,015 --> 00:45:28,016

Wow. Phenomenal stuff.

805

00:45:28,016 --> 00:45:31,019

Thank you so much for coming on

the podcast today and sharing that.

806

00:45:31,854 --> 00:45:33,689

Thank you.

807

00:45:34,606 --> 00:45:38,026

Thanks for listening to this episode

of Anabaptist Perspectives.

808

00:45:38,235 --> 00:45:41,613

If you found this interesting,

you'll enjoy this episode we did with Dean

809

00:45:41,613 --> 00:45:44,992

Taylor where he describes his journey

to becoming non resistant.

810

00:45:45,784 --> 00:45:50,330

As always, you can find all our content

over on anabaptistperspectives.org.

811

00:45:50,581 --> 00:45:53,375

Thanks so much for listening

and we'll catch you in the next episode.

812

00:49:01,563 --> 00:49:02,064

Thanks for

813

00:49:02,064 --> 00:49:05,067

listening to this episode

of Anabaptist Perspectives.

814

00:49:05,359 --> 00:49:08,612

If you found this interesting,

you may want to look at our interview

815

00:49:08,654 --> 00:49:13,033

we did with Dean Taylor, which describes

his journey from leaving the US military

816

00:49:13,158 --> 00:49:18,330

and choosing a path of nonresistance

and nonparticipation in the US government.

817

00:49:18,664 --> 00:49:19,748

It's a fascinating story.

818

00:49:19,748 --> 00:49:21,750

You can find it linked down below.

819

00:49:21,750 --> 00:49:25,087

Thanks again for watching

and we will catch you in the next episode.

820

00:51:29,002 --> 00:51:30,128

Yeah.

821

00:51:30,128 --> 00:51:32,839

Yeah. Get it started.

822

00:51:32,839 --> 00:51:34,132

okay. Well, yeah, let's let's do it.

823

00:51:34,132 --> 00:51:34,758

And when.

824

00:51:34,758 --> 00:51:35,467

That's interesting too,

825

00:51:35,467 --> 00:51:38,678

because you brought that out in the book,

how you were, you were also in Israel,

826

00:51:39,179 --> 00:51:42,599

when some of this was going on, you said

they were fighting for like 3 or 4 days.

827

00:51:42,808 --> 00:51:44,351

with with.

828

00:51:45,685 --> 00:51:45,977

Okay.

829

00:51:45,977 --> 00:51:47,395

So it wasn't was it any ground.

830

00:51:47,395 --> 00:51:51,024

Assaults or anything up in the border

between Lebanon and Israel?

831

00:51:51,024 --> 00:51:55,737

There was okay, that

but it was mostly missiles in Hezbollah

832

00:51:55,862 --> 00:52:00,242

into Israel, so close to where you were,

like into Jerusalem or really interesting.

833

00:52:01,118 --> 00:52:04,955

I went there to write this book

I needed to get away from,

834

00:52:05,330 --> 00:52:09,000

and nobody knew this except Steve,

who was my boss, Steve Rubin.

835

00:52:09,709 --> 00:52:10,836

so I asked him about this.

836

00:52:10,836 --> 00:52:12,546

He said, I think we can do something.

837

00:52:12,546 --> 00:52:14,798

And then nobody knew this.

838

00:52:14,798 --> 00:52:17,467

And a young friend of mine, David Craver.