1 00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:01,230 Hey, I'm Justin Sinceri. 2 00:00:01,230 --> 00:00:05,450 I'm a therapist, a coach, and the creator of the Polyvagal Trauma Relief System. 3 00:00:05,460 --> 00:00:08,049 Welcome to Stuck Not Broken, where I teach you how to live with more 4 00:00:08,050 --> 00:00:12,290 calm, confidence, and connection without psychobabble or woo woo. 5 00:00:12,690 --> 00:00:15,600 There's a really good chance you exist in a freeze state, and I want 6 00:00:15,610 --> 00:00:20,505 to address that in this episode- what freeze is through the polyvagal theory 7 00:00:21,195 --> 00:00:25,515 and, uh, some pitfalls or dangers in addressing the freeze state. 8 00:00:25,535 --> 00:00:30,265 And then also, well, what can you do to start coming out of freeze? 9 00:00:30,315 --> 00:00:34,765 So first off, freeze is a combination of the sympathetic flight fight 10 00:00:34,765 --> 00:00:39,795 state, plus the shutdown dorsal vagal immobilization state. 11 00:00:40,355 --> 00:00:44,015 If you can't be safe and you can't run away, you can't fight a danger, 12 00:00:44,025 --> 00:00:45,835 then you'll go into shutdown. 13 00:00:46,935 --> 00:00:50,725 But freeze is a combination of shutdown and flight fight. 14 00:00:50,995 --> 00:00:55,065 So that's being mobilized and immobilized at the same time. 15 00:00:55,065 --> 00:00:57,685 That could be immobilized through force or it could be 16 00:00:57,685 --> 00:00:59,105 immobilized through perception. 17 00:00:59,795 --> 00:01:04,015 So basically the accelerator and the brake are on at the same time. 18 00:01:04,015 --> 00:01:05,705 The body is highly revved up. 19 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:06,980 Heart rate is up. 20 00:01:07,050 --> 00:01:07,810 Muscles are tense. 21 00:01:08,655 --> 00:01:11,065 It's ready to move, but it can't. 22 00:01:11,255 --> 00:01:14,705 If it sounds like a panic attack, that pretty much wraps it up nicely. 23 00:01:15,305 --> 00:01:19,225 But freeze can have a couple of different feels to it, or 24 00:01:19,225 --> 00:01:21,235 flavors as I often call them. 25 00:01:21,985 --> 00:01:28,560 Because it freezes, the immobilization of shutdown, plus flight fight, 26 00:01:28,570 --> 00:01:30,240 but it's flight or fight, really. 27 00:01:30,990 --> 00:01:38,940 When you're immobilized while in flight, then the freeze flavoring will be flight. 28 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,820 It'll be more like panic, intense chronic anxiety. 29 00:01:44,420 --> 00:01:48,605 If you're frozen or immobilized when in a fight state. 30 00:01:48,615 --> 00:01:52,135 It's going to be more of a fight flavored freeze. 31 00:01:52,715 --> 00:01:58,055 You'll have more underlying chronic anger, control issues, 32 00:01:58,515 --> 00:02:00,585 bullying, abuse, that kind of stuff. 33 00:02:02,095 --> 00:02:06,575 Rage, this underlying rage and explosive rage really comes 34 00:02:06,575 --> 00:02:09,135 from fight flavored freeze. 35 00:02:09,185 --> 00:02:12,740 So freeze can be more flights, um, or more fight. 36 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,380 But it's basically the most important thing to know here would be that it's 37 00:02:16,380 --> 00:02:21,400 a combination of sympathetic flight fight plus dorsal vagal shutdown. 38 00:02:21,470 --> 00:02:24,440 So flight fight plus shutdown. 39 00:02:25,100 --> 00:02:28,070 Revved up, but the brake is also on as well. 40 00:02:29,260 --> 00:02:33,280 Freeze is really difficult to work through. 41 00:02:33,930 --> 00:02:35,970 It's not a quick process. 42 00:02:37,190 --> 00:02:43,030 The problem that I see with freeze and how we address it is we tend to talk 43 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:47,390 about the context leading to freeze, which is not a bad thing in and of itself. 44 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,000 But if you start talking about what led you to freeze, like those 45 00:02:52,020 --> 00:02:57,000 traumatic incidents, then it might just end up reinforcing the freeze. 46 00:02:57,410 --> 00:03:01,770 Talking about stuff doesn't necessarily mean it's helpful. 47 00:03:01,980 --> 00:03:05,600 It actually might be downright reinforcing of the state that you're in. 48 00:03:06,300 --> 00:03:12,640 So if you have a therapist who is pushing you to talk about stuff you've 49 00:03:12,640 --> 00:03:18,060 been through, trauma narratives, that could be reinforcing of the freeze. 50 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:23,265 To come out of freeze, just like the other defensive states, you have to have a nice 51 00:03:23,275 --> 00:03:25,385 strong anchoring in your safety state. 52 00:03:25,945 --> 00:03:30,565 Your safety state has to be strengthened enough to allow freeze to come out of 53 00:03:30,585 --> 00:03:34,715 the immobilization and then to eventually release the flight fight activation. 54 00:03:35,435 --> 00:03:38,805 In polyvagal terms, that's called the vagal brake. 55 00:03:39,005 --> 00:03:43,335 Your vagal brake, which is the influence of your safety state on your heart- 56 00:03:43,830 --> 00:03:48,110 the vagal brake has to be strengthened enough to allow self regulation. 57 00:03:48,580 --> 00:03:52,360 The vagal brake has to be strengthened enough to allow the immobilization 58 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:56,900 to come off and then the flight fight activation to be used or 59 00:03:56,900 --> 00:03:58,670 discharged through some means. 60 00:03:58,679 --> 00:03:59,580 That's different for everybody. 61 00:03:59,630 --> 00:04:01,180 The vagal brake has to be strengthened. 62 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:06,820 So when you attempt to talk about the trauma narrative or the thing that you 63 00:04:06,820 --> 00:04:11,190 went through, things you went through, and your vagal brake isn't strong 64 00:04:11,190 --> 00:04:14,560 enough or your safety state's not strong enough, then it, it just ends up 65 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:16,790 reinforcing your stuck defensive state. 66 00:04:16,790 --> 00:04:20,700 The way you would know it's strong enough is if you genuinely are curious 67 00:04:20,700 --> 00:04:23,500 and interested about all of you. 68 00:04:24,950 --> 00:04:27,350 You know, if you're genuinely curious and interested in 69 00:04:28,110 --> 00:04:29,620 what it feels like to be you. 70 00:04:30,180 --> 00:04:35,785 What it feels like to have your freeze stuck inside of you and to be open to what 71 00:04:36,245 --> 00:04:37,735 comes of it when you pay attention to it. 72 00:04:38,535 --> 00:04:41,395 If this sounds terrifying, then that's probably a pretty good 73 00:04:41,395 --> 00:04:42,665 indication you're not quite there yet. 74 00:04:42,665 --> 00:04:43,185 And that's okay. 75 00:04:43,295 --> 00:04:44,155 It's totally okay. 76 00:04:44,755 --> 00:04:47,775 That just indicates we need to work on the safety state more. 77 00:04:48,385 --> 00:04:52,035 As you work on accessing and building the strength of your safety 78 00:04:52,035 --> 00:04:58,245 state, then the freeze can thaw and the flight fight can discharge. 79 00:04:58,625 --> 00:05:03,665 I, the, um, image I use with my one on one clients, my therapy 80 00:05:03,685 --> 00:05:04,845 clients, my coaching clients. 81 00:05:05,245 --> 00:05:07,855 When we do our virtual sessions or, you know, meet in person, 82 00:05:08,295 --> 00:05:13,545 I'll put my fist out and say, this is the flight fight activation. 83 00:05:14,455 --> 00:05:18,505 And then I'll take my other hand and put it over the fist and say, this is the 84 00:05:18,535 --> 00:05:21,815 shutdown immobilization that is freezing. 85 00:05:22,245 --> 00:05:23,925 the flight fight activation in place. 86 00:05:23,925 --> 00:05:25,175 It's like locking it in. 87 00:05:26,015 --> 00:05:30,315 So just by itself, the fist, the flight fights active, it's vibrating. 88 00:05:30,315 --> 00:05:31,615 It's like ready to roll, right? 89 00:05:32,135 --> 00:05:33,455 It's ready to run away and ready to fight. 90 00:05:34,345 --> 00:05:39,085 But shutdown is also active and freezes it in place. 91 00:05:40,005 --> 00:05:40,245 Okay. 92 00:05:40,245 --> 00:05:45,405 So we have the image of my fist with my hand and my fingers over the fist. 93 00:05:45,405 --> 00:05:52,045 So to come out of freeze, generally, we have to get the immobilization to thaw, 94 00:05:52,055 --> 00:05:56,545 or we have to get the freeze to thaw, but the immobilization has to come off. 95 00:05:57,185 --> 00:06:01,655 It has to unlock, like it has to slowly melt away. 96 00:06:02,545 --> 00:06:07,525 Okay, so as that melts away, then that opens up the capacity 97 00:06:07,525 --> 00:06:09,915 for flight fight to discharge. 98 00:06:10,255 --> 00:06:10,835 To be used. 99 00:06:11,635 --> 00:06:12,815 But not all at once. 100 00:06:13,103 --> 00:06:16,790 It's a slow process, and I think it should be a slow process. 101 00:06:17,420 --> 00:06:23,160 We don't want this to be this big blow up out of control, chaotic, panicky, 102 00:06:23,180 --> 00:06:26,300 or rageful or overwhelming thing. 103 00:06:26,430 --> 00:06:29,740 We want, we want it to be, um, under control. 104 00:06:29,910 --> 00:06:32,870 The safety state has to be able to maintain that thaw. 105 00:06:32,890 --> 00:06:37,080 Once the safety state is active, active enough, then the, uh, the freeze can 106 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,470 thaw and then flight fight can be used. 107 00:06:40,110 --> 00:06:44,530 We want the safety state active, remove the thaw or remove the freeze, excuse 108 00:06:44,530 --> 00:06:47,670 me, and then use flight fight activation. 109 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:49,870 It's a slow process. 110 00:06:51,020 --> 00:06:52,420 What could happen. 111 00:06:52,830 --> 00:07:00,670 And I think is kind of a unrealistic expectation is that we'll go into like 112 00:07:00,770 --> 00:07:04,580 a therapy session and do the whole shaking and trembling and release 113 00:07:04,580 --> 00:07:06,760 our trauma and we're good to go. 114 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:08,310 And that's not the way it works. 115 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,360 It can work that way where there is, and I've had those sessions 116 00:07:11,370 --> 00:07:14,540 where there's the shaking and the trembling and, and the release, but 117 00:07:14,550 --> 00:07:15,850 that doesn't necessarily mean that. 118 00:07:16,635 --> 00:07:18,015 the problem is solved. 119 00:07:18,495 --> 00:07:22,795 It's a good indication that the person was mindful enough to really feel and 120 00:07:22,795 --> 00:07:26,525 release some of what was happening within them and to get to the next step. 121 00:07:26,535 --> 00:07:28,845 But it's not the only step. 122 00:07:28,845 --> 00:07:30,595 It's not the final answer. 123 00:07:30,615 --> 00:07:31,095 You know what I mean? 124 00:07:32,055 --> 00:07:35,105 As far as, um, trauma recovery goes, but it's a really good, 125 00:07:35,435 --> 00:07:36,335 it could be a good sign. 126 00:07:36,885 --> 00:07:38,195 So yeah, it's a long process. 127 00:07:38,445 --> 00:07:39,875 The safety state is the priority. 128 00:07:39,875 --> 00:07:40,935 It's always the priority. 129 00:07:42,185 --> 00:07:47,505 Identify safety, feel it mindfully, and continue to practice doing that. 130 00:07:48,225 --> 00:07:52,235 As you do that, then the immobilization can come off. 131 00:07:52,385 --> 00:07:53,905 Flight fight can start to come up. 132 00:07:53,985 --> 00:07:58,535 You feel that mindfully and then do something to release it. 133 00:07:58,965 --> 00:07:59,795 Mindfully. 134 00:08:00,585 --> 00:08:03,905 A lot of times when it comes to coming out of freeze, it is, 135 00:08:04,585 --> 00:08:05,695 it's an overwhelming experience. 136 00:08:05,695 --> 00:08:08,965 It can be a very overwhelming experience for, for someone, especially 137 00:08:08,965 --> 00:08:12,805 if it's new, you start touching on this stuff and then the body's 138 00:08:12,805 --> 00:08:13,914 like, "cool, Let's self-regulate!" 139 00:08:13,934 --> 00:08:15,594 And it wants all the stuff to come up all at once. 140 00:08:15,615 --> 00:08:22,485 But um, no, what I would recommend then is, prioritize safety, practice feeling 141 00:08:22,485 --> 00:08:26,895 safety every day, just in like micro moments, not 30 minute meditations. 142 00:08:27,465 --> 00:08:28,285 Micro moments. 143 00:08:28,295 --> 00:08:31,795 Use your senses, feel safety, mindfully experience what it feels 144 00:08:31,795 --> 00:08:33,115 like to be safe in your body. 145 00:08:33,745 --> 00:08:35,034 Notice where safety lives in your body. 146 00:08:35,275 --> 00:08:40,415 As that becomes easier and you have the capacity for more safety, then 147 00:08:40,425 --> 00:08:42,305 you can start to be curious about. 148 00:08:42,620 --> 00:08:47,110 or notice when you become curious about feeling the defensive activation, the 149 00:08:47,110 --> 00:08:49,010 flight fight activation that's within you. 150 00:08:49,010 --> 00:08:50,999 And then you do the same thing. 151 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,280 I would really recommend doing micro moments. 152 00:08:53,649 --> 00:08:58,420 So feel safe, touch upon the flight fight activation that's within you. 153 00:08:58,460 --> 00:09:03,170 Just very briefly come back to safety that back and forth is called pendulation. 154 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,525 This is a very light um, approach to it. 155 00:09:06,525 --> 00:09:11,015 I had a session with, with someone who was doing a lot of therapy 156 00:09:11,605 --> 00:09:15,995 before me had been doing a lot of therapy, somatic experiencing stuff. 157 00:09:16,024 --> 00:09:19,824 And this person would go all in, like, I'm going to do all this 158 00:09:19,824 --> 00:09:20,894 things, these things all at once. 159 00:09:20,894 --> 00:09:22,734 I'm going to feel all my shutdown all at once. 160 00:09:24,004 --> 00:09:27,774 This person kind of knew intuitively what to do, but then also had all 161 00:09:27,774 --> 00:09:29,674 this guided practice, which was nice. 162 00:09:30,304 --> 00:09:37,834 But there was a lot of freeze underlying the motivation to, to go all in. 163 00:09:38,514 --> 00:09:42,994 And so what I did was I recommended to them, instead of that, because that might 164 00:09:42,994 --> 00:09:47,624 actually be reinforcing of all this- let's lightly touch upon these things. 165 00:09:47,764 --> 00:09:51,524 Let's, instead of closing your eyes and immersing yourself in a safety 166 00:09:51,524 --> 00:09:55,244 for some 30 minute meditation, just lightly touch upon it, notice what 167 00:09:55,244 --> 00:09:58,944 it feels like, and then keep moving on, you know, like with your day. 168 00:09:59,684 --> 00:10:01,734 It doesn't have to be this all in thing. 169 00:10:01,874 --> 00:10:06,464 So if you notice you have a lot of freeze within you, uh, panicky rage 170 00:10:06,484 --> 00:10:11,334 kind of stuff, just like underlying and flavoring your existence, touch upon 171 00:10:11,544 --> 00:10:17,959 safety first, build that up and then touch upon the defensive activation lightly. 172 00:10:18,449 --> 00:10:21,539 And I would do it like you're skipping a stone like, you know, you throw a 173 00:10:21,539 --> 00:10:27,399 stone across the water goes Like that like touch upon safety touch upon the 174 00:10:27,399 --> 00:10:32,329 defense touch upon safety like just real quick and over time hopefully 175 00:10:32,349 --> 00:10:37,709 through that little practice we notice that safety builds The flight fight 176 00:10:37,709 --> 00:10:39,919 activation becomes more tolerable. 177 00:10:39,919 --> 00:10:41,189 And yeah, this is over time. 178 00:10:41,189 --> 00:10:43,269 We're talking about super easy like light practices here. 179 00:10:43,269 --> 00:10:47,769 Hopefully, it becomes more tolerable and over time, some more 180 00:10:47,769 --> 00:10:49,129 permanent unstucking can happen. 181 00:10:49,179 --> 00:10:50,559 That's the general idea. 182 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:56,424 In my coursework and in my upcoming, uh, two books, Stuck Not Broken 2 and 183 00:10:56,424 --> 00:10:58,619 3, Stuck Not Broken 1 came out already. 184 00:10:58,619 --> 00:11:02,319 In my next two books, we'll touch upon, or we'll go way more into 185 00:11:02,319 --> 00:11:05,029 how to build the strength of your safety state in a lot of depth. 186 00:11:05,339 --> 00:11:09,659 And then in book three, I touch upon, or I talk very in depth, 187 00:11:09,659 --> 00:11:10,609 excuse me, it's the opposite. 188 00:11:10,879 --> 00:11:15,669 I talk very in depth about how to feel your defensive activation, uh, 189 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,999 mindfully and with self compassion and the strength of the safety state is 190 00:11:19,414 --> 00:11:21,104 unbelievably important in that process. 191 00:11:21,554 --> 00:11:26,234 But once you get deep enough into safety, then you can notice where the 192 00:11:26,274 --> 00:11:28,144 defensive activation lives in your body. 193 00:11:28,744 --> 00:11:30,834 You can mindfully experience it. 194 00:11:31,144 --> 00:11:32,534 You can use description. 195 00:11:32,544 --> 00:11:36,694 You can, well, it's a whole separate process that that you can go through. 196 00:11:36,714 --> 00:11:40,234 Um, but that's way down the road. 197 00:11:40,244 --> 00:11:44,294 If you're just starting out, on these practices, lightly 198 00:11:44,414 --> 00:11:45,424 touch upon these things. 199 00:11:45,634 --> 00:11:46,944 You don't have to go into the trauma narrative. 200 00:11:47,484 --> 00:11:49,444 You don't have to think about past stuff. 201 00:11:49,554 --> 00:11:54,154 It might come up, but what I, if I was you, I'd really focus on the present 202 00:11:54,154 --> 00:11:57,444 moment, feeling safety in the present moment, in micro moments, alright? 203 00:11:57,854 --> 00:12:01,264 So that means like today, can you mindfully experience 204 00:12:01,264 --> 00:12:02,294 the taste of a strawberry? 205 00:12:03,044 --> 00:12:07,064 Can you mindfully look your pet in the eyes and smile and pet 'em? 206 00:12:07,644 --> 00:12:12,984 Can you mindfully take a walk outside and feel the sunshine on your skin or 207 00:12:12,994 --> 00:12:15,474 the breeze on your skin, smell flowers? 208 00:12:15,964 --> 00:12:17,834 Can you mindfully give your spouse a hug? 209 00:12:18,824 --> 00:12:23,114 Like micro moments of mindfulness, micro moments of safety and connection 210 00:12:24,224 --> 00:12:29,304 over time, then micro moments of lightly touching upon defense. 211 00:12:29,824 --> 00:12:34,154 And then back to safety and then back to defense until you've, you know, just a 212 00:12:34,154 --> 00:12:37,224 few times, just maybe a few times back and forth until it feels like that's enough. 213 00:12:37,454 --> 00:12:40,164 And then just move on with your day and then do the same thing the next day. 214 00:12:40,164 --> 00:12:41,234 All right, that's it for this one. 215 00:12:41,234 --> 00:12:45,905 I hope this was helpful to at least start approaching your freeze activation. 216 00:12:46,404 --> 00:12:50,709 Maybe thinking about you know, talking about this stuff in depth or delving 217 00:12:50,749 --> 00:12:54,599 all the way into it might be not a great idea and then also understanding what 218 00:12:54,649 --> 00:12:58,249 freeze is According to polyvagal theory and how it's different than shutdown 219 00:12:58,629 --> 00:13:01,449 if you like this stuff My first book came out stuck not broken book one 220 00:13:01,449 --> 00:13:05,699 This is the not for resale version, which has a banner across the middle. 221 00:13:06,299 --> 00:13:07,529 But yeah book one came out. 222 00:13:08,019 --> 00:13:11,769 Teaches you about freeze teaches you about shutdown all the polyvagal theory stuff. 223 00:13:12,379 --> 00:13:15,280 It teaches about all the polyvagal theory, plus, helps you build a 224 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,570 new self understanding, a new self narrative based on that, um, that does 225 00:13:19,570 --> 00:13:25,250 not involve shame, blame, or judgment, does not involve ruminating on past 226 00:13:25,250 --> 00:13:27,880 events or reliving past experiences. 227 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:29,120 Very present moment focused. 228 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,480 Otherwise, yeah, I hope this episode has been helpful for you and thanks 229 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:34,340 for spending some time with me. 230 00:13:34,890 --> 00:13:35,130 Bye. 231 00:13:35,270 --> 00:13:38,710 This podcast is not therapy, not intended to be therapy or 232 00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:40,310 be a replacement for therapy. 233 00:13:41,110 --> 00:13:44,490 Nothing in this creates or indicates a therapeutic relationship. 234 00:13:45,330 --> 00:13:48,780 Please consult with your therapist or seek for one in your area if you are 235 00:13:48,780 --> 00:13:50,690 experiencing mental health symptoms. 236 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,370 Nothing in this podcast should be construed to be specific life 237 00:13:54,370 --> 00:13:57,890 advice, it is for educational and entertainment purposes only.