[00:00:00] Shannon: All right. So y'all remember when, um, Congress wore kente cloths?

[00:00:10] Lisa: They was trying to do appreciation. They were trying to do appreciation, Karen. They were trying to do appreciation. That hear me out. They were saying

[00:00:23] Karen: that whole perform everything they did during that time. We kept seeing so many performative acts. That was so perfor Like, they should've got an Oscar for that.

[00:00:38] Lisa: We're gonna kneel

[00:00:39] Shannon: down And honor

[00:00:41] Lisa: the black

people I'm not

[00:00:49] Karen: about to kneel I'm

[00:00:49] Lisa: not about to kneel If y'all don't get up off my rusty knees I'm Shannon, and I'm Lisa, and

[00:00:55] Shannon: you're listening

[00:00:55] Lisa: to Blacktivities, a celebration of all things Black.

[00:00:58] Shannon: Black culture, [00:01:00] Black history, Black

[00:01:01] Lisa: perspectives, and Black panache. Celebrating our

[00:01:04] Shannon: Blackness doesn't mean exclusion.

[00:01:06] Lisa: Everybody's invited, but you gotta come in and have a seat. So let the Blacktivities

[00:01:11] Shannon: begin!

[00:01:12] Lisa: Hello

everyone! Welcome back, my Blacktivity family! Thanks We should do a round of applause. Alright, so Mona Lisa here with Shannon the Great and we have a lovely special guest with us, okay? Miss Karen, you want to say hello to everyone?

[00:01:40] Karen: Hello everybody. Um, happy to join y'all on this lovely day and uh, you know, tivities.

[00:01:50] Lisa: Yes. Let's get it. So today we're going to touch on culture, appreciation versus appropriation. [00:02:00] Kim K boxer braids. I just want to throw that out there one time. We

[00:02:03] Shannon: finally get to talk about Kim K and her boxer braids. Yes. Yes. So let me tell you about our guest. We have Ms. Karen Roberts Grissom. She is a speaker, organizer, a facilitator, and host of various art and community based events throughout the state of Colorado.

She's worked in social justice for the past 20 years to give a voice to marginalized and disenfranchised communities through her creation, development, and participation in programs and events designed to bring awareness. And seek solutions to strategically deconstruct generational and systemic injustice through action oriented, solution focused efforts rooted in equity, diversity, and inclusion.

We're so excited to have you, Karen.

[00:02:59] Lisa: I [00:03:00] should see Karen's face. She's over here like, yes. That is me. Keep reading. That's I, that is I. I was like, that's a lot. Who is that? I do it all.

[00:03:17] Karen: This is the work that I love. Yeah. So thank you for that.

[00:03:20] Shannon: Well, before we get started. We got to take care of some business. We're trying our best to bring you great content, but we do need our community to step up and help us out in the podcasting world, more downloads equals more opportunities to monetize and to continue to improve the quality of our production so that we can continue to bring you content that represents.

Our experiences and our perspectives, we should be telling our stories and that's exactly what we're trying to do here with Blacktivities. So, one way you can help us grow is to share an episode. Share your favorite [00:04:00] episode. Share this episode with somebody that you think would love it so that our voices are being

[00:04:07] Lisa: amplified.

Share it with somebody you think that they might not like it. Yeah, they might learn something. We've, we've, we've seen here in the past, there's people that didn't like it. They still, they kept coming back to let it be known that they didn't like it.

I don't understand it, but hey. I don't know what to say. I've been told a

[00:04:30] Shannon: lot of things this week that I must not have accomplished anything and, you know, I need to get a job

[00:04:39] Lisa: and whatnot. Yes. Um, we were told that we need to find something better else to do with our time. But

[00:04:46] Shannon: anyway, so back to the topic.

I'm on social media and I was just browsing and I came across a post in a local mom's group. And it was a white lady who had asked [00:05:00] about getting her son's hair braided. It seems like she was talking about cornrows, but she didn't really specify like what kind of braids, but she didn't really want to offend anybody.

So she was asking like, was this offensive to the black community to let him get his hair braided? Basically, it seemed like she didn't want to appropriate. So, of course, I do what I always do, and I look at the comments, and I see who's responding and what they're saying. Can you guess who most of the responses came from?

Probably not us. Not us.

[00:05:34] Lisa: White women. Yeah. What did

[00:05:37] Shannon: they say? So it was a lot of black people didn't invent braids. Um, you know, they don't have ownership of braids. You can do whatever you want to do. But GMK

[00:05:49] Lisa: does though. I just want to put that out there, but

[00:05:51] Shannon: go ahead. Yeah, it was kind of crazy. So it was interesting.

But, you know, that's such a good question. Like [00:06:00] where is that line between cultural appropriation and appreciation? Cause the way she was describing it, her kid really wanted braids because he just loved the way that they looked, but that is a traditionally black hairstyle and, you know, appropriation is not just a black issue.

It happens with other cultures too. Any comments before we start Saks

[00:06:23] Lisa: Facts? Well, for the lady, I mean, we can't get mad at her for that because she is asking the questions. That's what it's all about. Again, like you said it before, we don't own things and black folks borrow stuff from other people. Now, don't get me wrong.

Now, I used to say black folks ain't nobody had that long, but I have a couple of people in my family who hair is to their butt. So still, though, we ethnicities as well. I used to think growing up that having the little chopsticks in my hair with a hairstyle, that was cute. You know what I'm saying? Yes, my [00:07:00] black ass wanted to have those chopstick things in my hair.

And I didn't get on that and ask anybody for anything about appropriation. So I don't know. I have to applaud her on that.

[00:07:11] Shannon: Let's go ahead and do SAC's facts and then we can get into our discussion then.

[00:07:15] Lisa: Okay.

[00:07:25] Shannon: All right, well, the term cultural appropriation was spawned in the 80s and used academically to discuss colonialism and majority minority relationships. The Oxford English Dictionary defines cultural appropriation as the unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the practices, customs, or aesthetics of one social or ethnic group by members of another typically dominant community or society.

I found a simpler definition in an article on Britannica. [00:08:00] com that said cultural appropriation takes place when members of a majority group adopt cultural elements of a minority group in an exploitative, disrespectful, or stereotypical way. The Britannica article was interesting because it kind of broke down specific ways that people can appropriate other cultures and gave examples.

Uh, you can check that out if you want. I linked it in the show notes as I do all my sources. Y'all folks on social media need to put some respect on my name. I am a 15 year educator and I'm not pulling facts out of my behind. I research everything and I know what a reliable source is because

[00:08:42] Lisa: I teach what a reliable source is.

So you don't

[00:08:47] Shannon: want to put some respect on my name. But anyway, let me get off my soapbox. Here are the specifics that that article included. When it talked about ways people can appropriate. So one way [00:09:00] it said was a member of a majority group, profiting financially or socially from the culture of a minority group that's cultural appropriation.

So they gave an example of Madonna and Vogue. Voguing was like a dance style that gay people did, but they got no benefit from that. She got all the benefit. She benefited financially and socially. Another way, a member of a majority group oversimplifying the culture of a minority group or treating the culture of a minority group as a joke.

So like racial caricatures and perpetuating false stereotypes, an example of that would be like sports teams with Native American mascots. Right, they're going off of stereotypes of what Native Americans are like. Another way would be a [00:10:00] member of a majority group separating a cultural element of a minority group from its original meaning.

So like war bonnets was the example that they gave. They were popular. To wear at music festivals and Native Americans originally wore them on special occasions as almost like medals So they kind of took it away from its cultural element in the original meaning And then the last way that they mentioned was a member of a majority group adopting an element of a minority culture without consequences while members of the minority group faced backlash The same cultural element.

An example of that might be dreadlocks. Like we wear dreadlocks and they tell us, Oh, your hair's unprofessional. Right. But if a non Black person does it, they don't face those same type of consequences. [00:11:00] So. Where is the line between appropriation and appreciation? The National Institute of Health says appreciation involves community, connection, and learning.

So they suggested some ways to appreciate that included, and I'm quoting here, One, examine your own culture and beliefs. Knowing your own culture is one of the best ways to understand and appreciate other cultures. The second thing they said you can do is recognize and embrace cultural differences.

Allow these differences to spark healthy dialogue. Three, you can refrain from using sacred artifacts or symbols from another culture as an accessory. And four, ask yourself, why ensure your intentions are sincere and genuine. The fifth thing they said was to be an ally, engage in important conversations and help others learn about cultural appropriation.[00:12:00]

So the last thing I want to leave you guys with is a quote that I liked from a 2018 BBC Stories documentary called Cultural Appropriation, Whose Problem Is It? And it kind of hit different because of what we go through when it comes to things of our culture. So I wanted to share it. They interviewed a lady named Aisha who said, When you are part of a society that has told you how you look is wrong, for someone in that society to then say, Well, I'm gonna do it because it's fashionable, and it's a music festival, so who cares?

is very ignorant to the people who have had to go through those things. And that's SAC's Facts.[00:13:00]

[00:13:00] Lisa: Okay, so I'm shading myself here because of me sharing the fact that when I was younger I thought it would be cool to have that hairstyle with the chopsticks in my hair because it was trendy. Am I wrong for that though, when it comes to appropriation versus appreciation?

[00:13:15] Shannon: I mean, potentially.

[00:13:17] Lisa: Well, I'm bald headed now, so it don't matter.

laughter So, it don't matter. I mean, I never got the opportunity to do it, but not to make an excuse, but I understand. I understand. Thank you for those SAC's facts. Those really hit. What do you think,

[00:13:33] Shannon: Karen? So,

[00:13:35] Karen: that took me back to the, uh, Kim K. Braid's It's her box braids that Lisa mentioned. And really, you know, the biggest appropriators, they're huge appropriators as are, you know, Katy Perry, I think is the queen of cultural appropriation at this point.

And it's really doing it in a haphazard, sort of, is cute, so I'm going to do [00:14:00] it type way. And in Colorado, the Crown Act passed here in 2020 and the Crown Act passed in California in 2019. And so you figure as long as we've been in America since 1619 and those of us who were here before that. Our hair has been existing how it grows out of our body and we have to have legislation to say it's okay to have our hair grow the way it does out of our body, which is absolutely ridiculous.

I've not heard any other people in any other culture have to get legislation so that they can be who they organically are. It's a shame. And I love how. How you present everything right up front, because it took me right to what Lisa was saying. You can't cherry pick, [00:15:00] uh, what you think is cute. And, and if you think about it, when we talk about our bodies and our hair, we've never really had autonomy over any of that.

And so for somebody to say, well, I want those lips. I want that ass. I want this hairstyle. And really

[00:15:20] Lisa: what you're doing is I don't want this stomach. I don't want this stomach. I just want to put it up there. You don't see

[00:15:27] Karen: nobody cherry picking our stomach, right? They don't want that.

[00:15:31] Lisa: Uh, the fupa. I ain't never heard nobody say, Oh yeah, I want her fupa.

Never. Go ahead.

[00:15:41] Karen: And, and, but, you know, it's like cherry picking different things. And so, um, I think that, that it's something that, you know, we've been talking about for a long time. And there are people who want to minimize it, like those people who were on that app or whatever it was you were looking at.[00:16:00]

So yeah, they want to minimize it. Oh, everything is everybody's that's not true. It's not true And there is an element of cultural exchange, but it doesn't exist on all levels, you know Some stuff needs to be kept within its community for a reason and so when you think about it aave Uh, African American Vernacular English, aka Ebonics, is something that is also tapped into and utilized at will because somebody thinks it's cute.

Now I can't get a job with it, but you can do it when you think it's cute. Neck roll, popping and clicking and all of that. Add it to it when you are an instagram person and you want to emphasize a point Clicking and clacking and doing this and that and and appropriating those things But if I went into a job interview for you Or somebody, you know It wouldn't be accepted.

So these [00:17:00] things are done very haphazardly, very

[00:17:02] Lisa: haphazardly. I want, just to piggyback off of you saying like, what's this song? It's cool when you do it, but a problem when I do it. So I went and got a pedicure, um, a couple of days ago. And the guy, this is a guy, I had never met him. He was new to the shop.

We sat down, and you know, he was talking to me regularly, and he still had his accent, a thick accent, and um, talking to him, I found out that his family's originally, they, from Vietnam, I think is what he said. Well, anywho, after talking to him, I start noticing some of the words that he was saying, like, when I show him a nail design, he said, oh yeah, that's fine.

And I was like, okay, yeah, it's, I like it, it's nice. But then he started talking about music, and then he was asking me, did I like Tupac? And then he started slowly like saying like, yeah, that's badass, like he start, you know, loosening up and then start using Ebonics and I [00:18:00] was like, wait a minute, like. What if I had did that?

What if I mimicked an accent? Then I would have been a problem. So, after a while, like, normally I don't let things bother me, but after a while it kept going on and kept going. I was just like, boy, I just, just go ahead and just finish. Like, come on. Because it, after a while, it started, it was too much. It was too much.

Some of the things he was saying, the, the, the way that he was, you know, it, it was too much. And I started feeling uncomfortable because it was more or less a, what if I did that to you? How would you feel? Right? Right.

[00:18:35] Karen: It's very true. Like, what if you did go in there? They would have called you ghetto. Oh, she was aggressive.

You know, those are, those are, that's coded language that's used. If we do, if we are our authentic selves, then we get called different things. And I, I love that example because I went to get my nails done. This was at a new place at [00:19:00] my, my other place. I couldn't get it. And he was like, yeah, my name is Tyrone, sir.

I know good and well, your name is not Tyrone.

[00:19:10] Shannon: I see that a lot with my students. They'll have their Asian name, but they'll have another name that is Americanized that they go by. So.

[00:19:22] Lisa: Right. And see yours like Tyrone, you should have went out and played on there and it's like, do you, do you know who Erykah Badu is?

You

know, just play it on. I mean, he, he opened the window, so let's go with it. Let's climb on in, sir. And he was

[00:19:37] Karen: really funny. He wasn't, you know, he said, said Tyrone, but he started saying when I'm feeling strong and when I'm feeling good, I tell people my name is Tyrone, but it's another name when he's just not having the best day, uh, like David or something like that.

But it was, he was either Tyrone or [00:20:00] David. He didn't use his given name, but if he was feeling good about himself and feeling strong and. On another level, he was Tyrone. But, yeah.

[00:20:09] Lisa: Okay, then. Black King,

go ahead. I'm talking about. If you gonna do it, be appropriate with it.

[00:20:25] Karen: That's it. That's right. And he was funny. He wasn't offensive or anything. But you know, we've seen people be offensive, you know, Afro wigs are funny. You know what I mean? Clowns have Afros.

[00:20:39] Lisa: Those are funny. I don't even think about that, but that's a good point.

Mm

[00:20:42] Karen: hmm. And don't even get me started talking about, well, that's not really appropriation. It's just representation. But like, I always tell people that, that I don't like Shrek because I think Shrek is racist. And they say, what do you mean? Yep. Yeah, what do [00:21:00] you mean? That expression you had right there.

Flip it up, what you mean? So when you think about when the, the girl, I don't know her name because I saw it once and I was like, this is annoying. Fiona. Yes. When Fiona's beautiful, what are her features and hair like? Versus when she's not beautiful, what are her features and hair like? You see what I'm saying?

Her features are, are different. Features are all of that. All of that. And so I was like, I feel like Shrek is racist. And I would say it all the time. And people would be like, we didn't even think about it because it's a cute movie, you

[00:21:44] Lisa: know? It's cute. But then you got Donkey, Eddie Murphy. Ooo.

I'm

[00:21:52] Karen: not saying boycott Shrek. I'm just saying I noticed that from Joe. I'm, I'm ruined Shrek

[00:21:58] Lisa: for you. I'm ruined Shrek. [00:22:00] I'm sorry. See Neon, we can't get woke on

Shrek. Hell for the breakout room.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. But that is a good point though. That's a good point. Go back and watch

[00:22:15] Karen: and you'll see. I'm sorry, Shan.

[00:22:17] Lisa: Okay.

[00:22:18] Shannon: Ladies, what do you feel like is that line between appropriation and appreciation? And like, how do we avoid crossing

[00:22:28] Lisa: that line? Well, to go back to your original story, when we started up, that lady is doing the research.

So her doing the research, I feel like that was enough within itself. And I don't know, just doing the research, starting doing the research first, but also draw that line of, okay, if you are Caucasian, you have no business wearing A kente or a head wrap. That's just me personally. That's my opinion But again, I understand you trying to show [00:23:00] like appreciation or whatever, but don't let it cross the line of okay You wear it on a regular basis because it's trendy.

What about you Karen?

[00:23:08] Karen: I'm, just glad she asked the question I think the fact that she, I hate that all the Karens chimed in, like they really, you know, had something to say about it because it's not for them to have a conversation about. She's asking people who bear that culture, what do y'all think about it?

And the reality is, I would have been like, sure, let him do it, but also it's a teaching opportunity. Teach him what it means. Show him some pictures. You know, Google is our friend. Let him look at the history of it. This is why you like it. This is, this may be why you like it. I mean, the fact of the matter is he's got a different type of hair and all that, but we are the original woman.

The original woman traces back to a black woman. So, For somebody to want that, I get [00:24:00] it, but having that understanding from a child, I think is good. That's a good teaching moment. So sure, let him do it. Teach him about it. And then as he goes about and people, Oh my God, I like your hair. Can I touch it? How long did it take?

Cause I'm sure he going to get those questions too. Just like we do. So, uh, that's an opportunity for him to share out

[00:24:25] Lisa: about it. Right. And hopefully she teaches him right. That way, when they want to touch it, he put his hand up and said, Uh, my mama said you can't touch my head. Exactly.

[00:24:35] Shannon: Well, what you said, Karen, was exactly what a lot of the Black women who jumped in the conversation were saying.

And some of them said, you know, Even though he wants it, it might not be the best for his hair because the way y'all's hair is, it's different from ours. So,

[00:24:52] Lisa: and it might, yeah, it might pull it out. It's not strong enough. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:58] Karen: The texture, it, it may not [00:25:00] work. And, you know, there was a, uh, one example of, of something that should have been inquired about.

There's this person where I used to work and she has a, uh, program that she's implementing. And it uses the term wolf pack. And so, um, you know, it's like, yeah, we're a team. We're a wolf pack, which, you know, you don't think about it. But when we began to really have the conversation, the black women were like, we don't want that because we're always called names.

We're called beasts. We're called animals. We're called all of these different things when somebody's being racist or whatever. But we don't like it because we don't want to be called names. Well, the appropriation part came in when there was a girl who, part of her family is Native American. And she said, you know the problem with that?

She said, they call black women names. She said, but [00:26:00] the name, like a wolf or something like that, in my Native American culture. It has to be earned. So that's a title. That's something that has to be earned a wolf a bear Things like that. You don't just put that on yourself. You gotta earn that She's like these people on this job.

They earn calling themselves. No wolf pack You know, so there, therein lies a problem because it's, it's appropriating an image from a culture that you never really looked into.

[00:26:36] Lisa: Shannon, you posted, um, something on our Instagram page about the appropriation and appreciation. And it was a reel of two Caucasian women on a plane and they were getting settled in.

And they put their bonnet on a lot of people in the comments were saying, Oh, well, what's the [00:27:00] problem with that? A bonnet is for protection for curly hair and which I can see that, you know, I'm really big on bonnets. I'm not, I'm not a fan of people wearing bonnets in public. And with that stereotype, I feel like it is automatically assumed just because someone wears a bonnet, they automatically point to black women.

Because we're all out in the world all day long with a bonnet on.

[00:27:28] Shannon: It was like half and half when it came to the results on that. Um, very close. Some people saying yes it was appropriation. Some saying it was appreciation. Or really, you know,

[00:27:41] Lisa: nothing. It didn't matter. Yeah, but you know, that's the thing

[00:27:45] Karen: the thing is it would not be appropriate for us But I bet if katie perry busted out with a bonnet then, you know, it's gonna be called something else It's trendy.

There was a thing on. Um that I saw [00:28:00] you guys might have saw this Um, it said high fashion braids and I promise y'all it was just some cornrows cornrow back into like a, like a ponytail, some cornrows cornrow back and they called it high fashion braids.

[00:28:22] Lisa: I was talking to Shannon about this earlier, and yes, I go pretty hard on Kim K when it comes to the boxer braids, but as Shannon said, it's not, it's not necessarily her fault. Even though she is an influencer, it's the media, the media put it out there as if it's like this brand new hip thing. And we sitting here looking like, wait, man, my grandmama used to do my hair like that when I spent the night, you know what I mean?

So it's the media that, that portrays it to have it to where it's this fabulous new trendy thing, but it's not, it's not

[00:28:54] Shannon: new. So when we feel like people are [00:29:00] appropriating. How should we respond, or is it something we should even really care about? Should we just keep it moving?

[00:29:08] Lisa: With me personally, I feel like it'd be crazy.

It'd be Karen like for us to be like, Why do you have that on? Who are you? You don't belong. Like, just going about their business. Because, I mean, what can we do? Other than having your own platform to where you're talking about things like this such as Blacktivities, Blacktivities podcast follow if you have not already, but I feel like with that right there, I mean, why?

Why say something to them because they're not going to understand it or most of the time they will take offense to it Whereas you're just trying to enlighten them on it. So I just say leave it be

[00:29:46] Karen: that's that's interesting I've been in an environment. I was at work and there was this girl who would come up to me.

She was not Black and she sounded like a runaway slave [00:30:00] and

And basically her AAVE had to do with the fact that and I'm just gonna keep it 100 she had black kids and was like, um

[00:30:14] Lisa: And so i'm just saying

[00:30:16] Karen: It was and I was like, okay, I don't even talk like that. And so why is that? AAVE why is that? Ebonics so heavy on you, you know what I'm saying? And, and so I looked at her one day and I said, you know what?

First of all, we're in a work environment, so please address me professionally in a work environment. And I said, second, and most importantly of all. Calling me girl. I'm a grown ass woman. And that is sister speak between me and my sisters. So I would prefer in this environment. And even if you see me on the street that you address me differently because [00:31:00] I'm not your girl.

[00:31:01] Lisa: After that, how did she respond? She was in

[00:31:04] Karen: shock. And, and never ever talked to me again, which was fine. I don't care. And I'm not, you know, the fact that you have, you know, biracial children doesn't give you a pass. I feel like it's very inappropriate for you to assume that that's how I am going to, and, and how do you know, I even interact with my friends that way.

So for you to just be that casual and flip it, you know, and so we she stopped coming by my desk and I was fine with that because I don't I don't need that. You're not familiar with me. And we're just not going to communicate on that level. That's for outside of work and with a certain group of people.

We are bilingual. We we are very bilingual. Yeah, we we can and and everyone's fine. Even it's a big deal in my organization for [00:32:00] us to not code switch. What if we just stopped code switching and just showed up and spoke in a more relaxed way? Um, and I know Shannon's probably like, Ooh, no. Cause I'm a teacher and I'm not, no, but yeah, I think.

Code switching. Um, I think it depends on why you're code switching. I'm not going to code switch to assimilate. I will code switch because I feel like it's the best way for you to understand what I am saying and to get my point across, but it's certainly not for a point of assimilation because I refuse.

I'll

[00:32:40] Lisa: be all over the place. I'll be. Hello there. How are you today? And I was like, girl, I'm not doing this with you right now. You ain't finna be coming in here hollering at me. And then I'm like, oh my god, no. You're creepy. You're going on a trip? Bring me pictures when you pics. I'm [00:33:00] like, I have to. I have to.

I have to. But I do it because I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be 100% honest with you guys. Some customers do, they do too much and that's, that's my polite way of saying it, but I do have some customers that are, you can tell the vibe, the energy is there to where if they do maybe let out a girl, it wouldn't bother me because I know deep down that they mean well, you know what I mean?

It's nothing to be offended for. I have friends of other ethnicities and it doesn't bother me. You know, if they are speaking a certain slang or twang because I know, I know their heart, but if I don't know you like that, let's stay on the coast, which let's be professional. Was that all the questions? Yeah.

We finna move along to Blacktivity. So we have like a little small little game that we do here and there. And then just to let you [00:34:00] know, Karen, we answer, you know, the question that's there as best as we can. This is not that hard. It's very simple.

[00:34:15] Shannon: Okay. So this black activity is appropriation or appreciation. So I came up with some, I tried to come up with some like examples that we've seen. So we'll just go through the list and you guys tell me, do you think that's appropriation or appreciation and why? Uh, so the first one I thought about was Nicki Minaj and she had a video where she dressed as a geisha girl and she's not the only one.

There've been other people that have done that too. Is that appropriation or appreciation?

[00:34:51] Lisa: As much as I want to say that was cool for her to do. Uh, it's appropriation because you gotta think that's on the same level [00:35:00] as when Victoria's Secret had that model walk down in that full headdress to the floor, okay, for Native Americans and she had on a little skimpy little outfit and had the little terracross jewel necklace on with it.

It's the same thing, so we can't be hypocritical when it comes to certain things like that. I agree.

[00:35:22] Shannon: Alright, what about wearing nose rings? Mmm, I, to be

[00:35:26] Lisa: honest with y'all, I haven't really thought about that. I may need to look a little bit more into that. Don't care. Got something to say guys. Mr. Manager, don't care.

[00:35:36] Karen: So, I would love to say appreciation. To be honest, I'm vacillating because not very many people even know the history of it and what it means symbolically. A lot of black people don't even know. I mean, obviously those things started with Our [00:36:00] culture and some of the other older cultures, but do we know, I'm stumped on that one.

I mean, we may have some information like the, and those piercing eerie, you know, where they get bigger and bigger in the ears. That's definitely, we've seen that tribal in Africa. Yes.

[00:36:20] Lisa: Mm hmm. Yes, that's true. Yeah, now that I think about

[00:36:25] Shannon: it, I'm gonna be honest. I don't know the history I just know that nose piercing in like hindu or whatever has a meaning but maybe If it goes across cultures, because I don't feel like nose rings are specific to one particular culture.

Right. Maybe it's hard to say it's appropriation. Right. Uh, so what about your white friend coming to the cookout, eating ribs, playing spades, doing the line dancing? Is that [00:37:00] appropriation or appreciation?

[00:37:01] Lisa: Appreciation. I have to say appreciation. And the reason why I'm saying this is. I'm finna pull it out.

You know how, you know how some white people be like, my best friend is black. Okay, my best friend of 20 something years. I met her in high school is, is she's white. And she has always been there when we have cookouts, family events, she's there. Um, my, my oldest daughter, her boyfriend, he's white. And again, it's all about how you feel.

And I don't feel like there's any, anything bad or anything like that when they're there, they're, they're playing cards. They're contributing, like it's, they're contributing to that vibe, you know, and it doesn't seem awkward. Now, if something gives me an awkward feeling, then I'll say, okay, something ain't right about this.

But. That vibe is there. So with me, I say,

[00:37:53] Karen: yeah, I'd have to agree because I think people are just showing up to have a good time at the cookout. [00:38:00] I also don't invite people to the cookout. They see somebody on the internet and they're invited to the cookout. Not really. I'm not inviting anybody else. The cookout is full.

But if you got folks that show up, like you talk about your friend, she shows up at everything. She's practically family. That's appreciation. That's, that's love right there. That is love.

[00:38:24] Lisa: Yes.

[00:38:26] Shannon: All right. So y'all remember. When, um, Congress where it can take cloths.

[00:38:33] Lisa: In their defense, they was trying to do appreciation.

No. They were trying to do appreciation. They were trying to do appreciation. Hear me out. They were trying. they did.

[00:38:53] Karen: During that time, we kept seeing so many performative acts. That was so perfor [00:39:00] Like, they should've got an Oscar for that. We're gonna kneel down

[00:39:06] Lisa: and honor the black

[00:39:08] Karen: people.

[00:39:08] Lisa: We're gonna kneel! We're gonna kneel down. And let them get up off them

[00:39:13] Karen: old rusty knees. And quit playing. You know, all the things that we didn't need that we were asking

[00:39:22] Lisa: for, people were doing the opposite.

We said we

[00:39:26] Karen: needed black anti lynching, they give us kidney cough. We said, you know, we need a, uh, uh, the George Floyd Act. They didn't give us that. You know, we got it. We had to go through all the things we went through. They did an Asian American anti hate. We don't,

[00:39:45] Lisa: you know, pass quick,

[00:39:47] Karen: but what did we have to go through?

We had to get bit by dogs, fire holes, all of them things. And y'all give us Juneteenth and Kente cloth. No, ma'am. That was horrible [00:40:00] and performative and we just don't want the performative stuff. We want actual legislation, you know, and so as we gain ground, there's this whole tearing down, you know, you, you gain ground in, in getting one thing passed and then, okay, so here goes.

Affirmative action. But anyway, that's a whole nother thing. But it was, it wasn't even appropriation. It was a

[00:40:25] Lisa: book. It weren't planned. She couldn't wait to know. She had

[00:40:33] Karen: to know. she asked that question.

[00:40:35] Lisa: Was that appreciation? Hell no, that wasn't no appreciation. For the record, I was trying to help y'all with the appreciation.

It didn't work out that way. Sorry. Y'all Yeah, she couldn't hold it. She could not hold

[00:40:52] Karen: it. I thought I was gonna pass out. Alright, what

[00:40:57] Lisa: about um, Chet Hanks, talking [00:41:00] like a Jamaican.

[00:41:01] Shannon: You know, Tom Hanks son. Well, he's a

[00:41:04] Lisa: chronic...

[00:41:08] Karen: But I've been cussing on this show. He's a chronic a hole anyway, so He does and says the most inappropriate things.

I'm sure his parents are very proud of his shenanigans And Really? He's just a total loser. Have such great parents and access to so much, but you're just pretty much a loser. So, I don't, I mean...

[00:41:36] Lisa: A very, a very, a very handsome loser at that, but go ahead.

[00:41:44] Karen: Oh, that is

[00:41:45] Lisa: funny. I'll be honest with

you. I was telling Shannon about Chet. When I first came across him, and I was like, wait, I seen him on Shade Room a couple years ago, and I was [00:42:00] like, Chet Hanks? I was like, there is no way this is Tom Hayson. So, I went and found his Instagram, and I was just scrolling through, and I was just looking through, and I was confused because majority of his videos, he talks in that Jamaican accent.

But I was like, why is he doing this? But then I started seeing when he was talking regular, and I was like, oh, I don't know about this. But he, he's very, Nice to look at. He does have a black baby mama. So it's kind of like, he's drawing a line a little bit. I think he might have stepped on it.

[00:42:35] Shannon: All right.

What about Beyonce's Renaissance album? Now we know that, you know, a lot of her stuff was for the gay community, I guess. LGBTQ plus. Do you feel like she appropriated or was she appreciating them? She gave credit. That's how I felt about it. She gave credit. [00:43:00] I haven't been to see her show, but from the clips I've seen, it seems like she is including them in every piece of

[00:43:08] Lisa: it.

And this is just the honest question. So with her in the renaissance thing, I don't want a beehive coming for me. This is just the question. So she, I like Beyonce. I can't say that I'm an actual beehive er, but I do know Beyonce and all this other stuff. But when it comes to her and coming up with music to where...

You guys are stating that she did give credit. What is the difference, and this is just me asking the question, what's the difference between her and then Madonna? Like, what, what's the difference with the Voguing thing? Because it was, it's still music. Now, Madonna had gay people, like, they were around and all of that.

So, I'm like, what's the, what's the difference? And

[00:43:52] Shannon: we were pretty young when Vogue came out. So, we may not know all the details. [00:44:00] Surrounding that maybe Madonna

[00:44:02] Lisa: because they both got paid. Obviously Madonna got paid way more money Beyonce's getting paid way more money because it's her album and all of that I

[00:44:10] Shannon: can't speak on that from a factual standpoint because I don't know that was the example that this website used.

[00:44:19] Lisa: Okay. Okay. I'm gonna look into that.

[00:44:22] Karen: I think part of part of the definition of cultural appropriation has to do with people of the majority using something to represent a minority. And so. Or that belongs to a minority community or subgroup or however you want to categorize it. Beyonce is closer to that subgroup than Madonna.

Madonna has just white privilege all over the place. And I think that may have something to do with the [00:45:00] difference because power is at the core. And at the end of the day, Madonna... Is one of the most powerful people. She's a living legend as is Beyonce. But when you think about the, the core of everything, Madonna's always going to thrive.

And, and a black person, just like Jay Z song, you know, still the N word that's, that's their existence. So she'll never be, uh, seen on the same. Well, she's on the same level. And I feel like above. Madonna, but Madonna's made her mark. You can't deny her impact on music, but the, the power dynamic is different because she's born into a level of privilege that Beyonce, no matter how powerful she gets, we'll never know her grandchildren's grandchildren's grandchildren will be wealthy Beyonce's, but they still black.[00:46:00]

So I think. You know, me as a person who's a minority accessing and reaching out to another minority may be seen different and I'm saying may because I don't know what the website pointed to, but I say it may be seen different for that reason. That's a good point. She's part of a marginalized community is what I'm trying to say.

Whereas Madonna is not.

[00:46:30] Shannon: So it's marginalized to marginalized versus Power.

[00:46:35] Karen: Yep. Privilege

[00:46:37] Lisa: and power. I, I, I understand. I, I, but it's hard for me though to look at it because it's entertainment and these two people obviously get paid way more money than I do. Yes, they have bigger platforms, but I still feel like, at the end of the day, is Beyonce sitting and having dinner with these people, or, like, and again, [00:47:00] y'all, correct me if I'm wrong, or if she has, like, is she out there in the streets?

Like really doing her part for this community that she's given credit to other than just having an album like, Hey, here y'all go. And then she sprinkled some music on them and keep it.

[00:47:14] Shannon: Maybe also to, I'm thinking this Beyonce's music was inspired by the community. Vogue was a thing that gay people were already doing and Madonna took it and put it in a song.

Maybe that has a part of it too. Like Beyonce's creating original things inspired by the community. Vogue was not original. It already existed. I

[00:47:47] Lisa: understand. Okay. Okay.

[00:47:49] Karen: Yeah, I know what you're saying. She didn't cherry pick. You know, she didn't cherry pick something. That's a tough one. That's a hard one

[00:47:58] Lisa: right there.[00:48:00]

[00:48:00] Shannon: Okay, so I didn't have many examples of appreciation, so I just threw this one in there. When I was in high school, Lisa, do you remember Imran, um, we had hosted German exchange students and so one of the activities that we did with them was to go to his house and his mom dressed us up in traditional Indian attire.

Oh wow! And we were eating, um, Indian food. at their

[00:48:30] Lisa: home. She was, she was trying to teach you guys something. Yeah,

[00:48:34] Karen: it was a teaching moment. I love that. That's a great example of cultural exchange.

[00:48:39] Shannon: I really enjoyed it, but I remember that specifically because I thought it was so cool and I just love all of the bright colors.

Traditional Indian attire is so beautiful. All right, I think Lisa, it's time for your piece.[00:49:00]

[00:49:07] Lisa: This is kind of a short one, but this one is called Inspired. And I tell you, are you inspired? The coals in my hair, I find it a nuisance, but yet you see trendy. The hump on my back, quite often it hurts, but you pay thousands to resemble. See, I'm far from offended, far from oppressed, but, baby, it's close, so I'll just say, assume to assume with or without the ass, compliment or not, I must ask you, are you inspired?

You better

[00:49:53] Shannon: promote your stuff, girl.

[00:49:54] Lisa: That's right. Okay. So since y'all pushing me to do it, I mean, [00:50:00] so just to let y'all guys know, I have been doing poetry for a long time, hence my name, Mona Lisa, the poet. I do have a lot of shows coming up. The one that I'm really, really excited about here again is happening in Chattanooga.

Tennessee at the Grand Soir building. It is titled wet dreams. I can't get you tickets. Um, it is Saturday, August 19th from 7 to 10 p. m. And yes, it is sharing erotic poetry along with other things that other poets will be tapping into. Me, I'm just spoken word, that's all I got in me, but they will be doing more, okay?

Um, they will have a lot of vendors there, um, tickets are 40, VIP is 60, VIP comes with drinks and Dinner. So nice. Just putting that out there. Y'all

[00:50:55] Shannon: are in the area. Go out and support Mona Lisa.

[00:50:59] Lisa: [00:51:00] Yes. All right. Today has been great. And I have to say, thank you, Karen, for coming along. Yes. Shannon, whenever you bring people along, it's always a treat.

[00:51:10] Karen: Thank y'all for having me on here today. I really appreciate it. Y'all are a lot of fun.

[00:51:15] Lisa: Thank you for being here. We got to do this again. Yeah. But to sum up today's show, it's no issue to tap into trendy, long as you know the origin and respectful of the history, okay? Know when it's a good idea to be trendy and when it's a good idea to not touch things.

Take culture, appreciation and appropriation serious.

[00:51:41] Shannon: All right, next week, we're discussing generational differences. We always talk about how it was back in the day. Well, was it better? Was it worse? How are things different now than they were back then in the black community? That's what we're talking about next week.

[00:52:00] Um, if you have any comments about this episode or an upcoming episode. Go ahead and hit us up on IG or on Facebook. We're at Blacktivitiespod. Links are in the show notes. And until next week,

[00:52:16] Lisa: king and queens keep doing big things. Hello. Let's go.