[00:00:00] Hannah: Hello, and welcome back to the awfully quiet podcast. I am still trying to wrap my head around this conversation. I mean it. When I say this interview was next level today, I sat down with Marian Pasha, a master storyteller, TEDx, London curator, and someone who helps others tell better stories. and tell stories better.

I reached out to Mariam because I wanted to dive deep into the art of storytelling and public speaking. And let's be honest, most of this is me asking for a friend, but I know many of you feel the same way about speaking on stage, giving presentations or being in the spotlight. This conversation is really important because we need more introverts sharing their stories and bringing their rich inner worlds to light.

Mariam takes us behind the scenes of a TEDx talk, how much prep goes into delivering a great talk, and a few of the little tricks to make it look like those people up on stage are natural born speakers. Which often they aren't. We also explore storytelling in the workplace. And Mariam leaves us with a practical checklist for introverts to become more impactful speakers.

And it doesn't involve making ourselves louder or any different than we are. This Conversation was mind blowing. I had so many aha moments and realizations. I think you can tell from my voice and from the way I speak. I will surely be listening and re listening to this one over and over again. I'm so, so proud of this episode and so glad to have had the chance to speak to Mariam.

Now, without further ado, let's welcome Mariam to the Awfully Quiet Podcast. Mariam, thank you so much for joining me today and welcome to the Awfully Quiet Podcast.

[00:02:04] Jessica: I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for the invite.

[00:02:08] Hannah: Thank you for coming on. I'm really excited, as I just mentioned. what I know about you is you're a storyteller, you're a curator at TEDxLondon, and you help others tell their stories. And what I want to get from you today is a bit of a behind the scenes glimpse into storytelling and speaking, because frankly, I often feel like it's all quite intimidating, at least for me, and I know my audience feels the same way.

When I see, a great speaker up on stage, I'm always in awe, but equally really intimidated. And I feel, you know, sometimes they, they must be born with it. They must be in, in one or the other way, privileged to be standing on stage and speaking so perfectly. And, as I just said, I believe my audience feels the same way.

So can we start with How you got into speaking and storytelling and how much of these skills is inherent God given versus something that we learn over time.

[00:03:07] Jessica: so I, I actually get this question quite a lot. and I can completely understand why people feel like they see a great speaker up there and they think, Oh, couldn't do that. Right. Like that's something that is totally alien to the way I feel.

and I have to say, you know, you asked me about how I got started in this. I don't, in some ways, I feel like I'm not a natural person to do this work. I, you know, I was pretty shy as a kid. Like I was talkative, but I wasn't confident. And I think we all get a lot of cues when we're younger, especially as like women to, to be quiet, to not talk so much, not be so bossy, all that kind of stuff, you know?

So I, I think it's definitely been something that I've had to work on and figure out. And so it's been, it's kind of nice, though, because when I get to work with the people I get to work with, I'm not coming from a place that doesn't understand them at all,

[00:04:01] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:04:04] Jessica: if that makes sense. So,

[00:04:06] Hannah: I really like

[00:04:06] Jessica: and, but to answer your question, because I think, so in some ways, I feel like I'm unusual to do this work, but to answer your question, I think, absolutely, the biggest misconception is that this is something that people are born with. This is like the number one thing I think it's important for people to know is not true, because actually speaking, communicating is essentially any, it's like any skill.And, you know, skills can be intimidating. Like if you see someone who runs a marathon, if you see someone who's, I don't know, an incredible artist. If you see someone who is a brilliant coder or, I don't know, whatever it might be, skills people have developed over time, it can be very intimidating because you kind of compare where you are now to the many years of effort that that other person has put in.

And you just can't bridge that gap. But actually. Public speaking and, and storytelling and communicating is a skill. It's like any other skill. And if you, it's important to you, there are ways to get better at it. And it's, it's just, there are no shortcuts.

[00:05:20] Hannah: Yeah. So what were you saying is that the TEDx speakers that we see on stage, they're not necessarily great speakers to begin with, but they have A great story to tell, and then they become great speakers in the process. Is that how it works?

[00:05:35] Jessica: Yeah. I mean, okay. So one thing you should know is I think anyone can be a great speaker. I genuinely, I genuinely believe that. And I've worked with people kind of across the whole spectrum of kinds of people, the places in the world, experience levels. what I would say is that, people come into the TED and the TEDx process with so much varying experience.

and so they all have to work in different ways to get to a point that you might see. But the other thing that people don't really know is something called post production. So you know, I know it sounds really

[00:06:08] Hannah: Tell me more. Yeah.

[00:06:20] Jessica: Right now, of course, there are some speakers who just nail it, you know, they nail it, they're great. They've put in the time they've put in the effort. They get a buzz from the audience. They nail it. We have very little editing. I can take no credit, but there are plenty of speakers who've gone on to, to, whose talks have then gone on to have millions of views who needed, the support of post production, they needed some editing, you know, whether it's they, Just got lost. Or they started and then they wanted to restart. Or they were just, were human in the way they communicated. And so they, you know, lost their train of thought or repeated a word or just started again or whatever it might be. You know, the, the, When we watch things online, we're much less forgiving, right?

You know, it's like our attention spans are super short. We want everything to be highly perfect, et cetera. But in person, if you think about the conversations you have every single day, et cetera, we don't communicate like robots. We communicate like people. And that means people stumble over words. They say the wrong thing.

They lose their train of thought. So live, it's a wonderful experience. And then we edit it so that it's also works for the online world.

[00:07:34] Hannah: I love that. it's great to get some of the behind the scenes of that process.what would you say makes a great speaker, makes a great story? If you say it's not necessarily down to, Oh, somebody is a great, you know, very well recognized, famous speaker, but somebody has got a story to tell. What would you say is what makes a, what makes a great speaker?

What makes this experience valuable?

[00:07:58] Jessica: There's so many different things, you know, that's the beauty, I think, of, of storytelling and the fact that, you know, at least these days, recently, we value so many different kinds of voices and stories and perspectives. So I think there was once upon a time, you know, you can imagine in the business world where every great speaker kind of looked the same.

They were like an old white dude in a gray suit. And that was what was respected. I'm not even saying that they weren't good. I'm just saying that that was seen as what it was like. Authority, you know, and then we traded our gray suits for, black turtlenecks and glasses. And then that kind of Silicon Valley CEO became the archetype of, of, of a great speaker.

But actually, if you really think about it now and think about who resonates with you, I mean, there's so many different people from so many parts of the world. They are, Younger, older experience from all different ages, races, genders, it's diverse. So first of all, there's nothing, I think we're in a great moment where there's nothing singular about it. When I work with speakers, the ones that stand out to me, there are a few characteristics. One is, having a great idea or something that they want to talk about that they're passionate about. So that ability to really care about what you're saying is so contagious.I worked with a speaker once and he, I would do a lot of work on climate change and he is an expert on US electrical grids.

So like how we get our electricity from one part of the country to another part of the country in America. And I'm going to be honest with you. It's not like a topic that I went into thinking, Oh, I'm so excited about this. I actually thought, Oh my God, how are we going to make eight minutes really interesting? is it was easy. It was really easy because he was so passionate about what he was saying. He, he was so, dedicated to his work, you know, it was his life's work and that passion was contagious. So, so being interested in what you're saying. Caring about it is absolutely a plus.and then I think being generous is really important.

So can absolutely tell when someone is speaking from a place of ego.you know, when it's all about them, the most common way you see it is actually, if you do any of this kind of work, or if your listeners do, when you're looking at like business pitches.or startup pitches, you know, a startup you'll, I used to do this work earlier in my career and you'll see a startup and they'll come and be like, we've got this great four minute pitch and you're like, cool.

And they'll just go into it and it will be like me, me, me, me, me, me, like, we're the best. This is why we're great. And you realize that they have done absolutely nothing to think about their audience, to think about who they're speaking to, to think about others. And that is really what I mean about generosity.

You know, have you done some, have you spent some time thinking about what is this gift you're giving to others, why it might be important to them and is it about you or is it actually about the idea and about them? And so if you can do that, it really makes a difference.

[00:11:17] Hannah: What I really like about the gift you're giving, especially for my introverted audience and for myself is it almost takes away the spotlight from yourself and on to the audience on to who you're trying to reach what you're trying to convey. And it's almost, you're there for something bigger than yourself.

I think it can help a lot of people just kind of switch from, Oh, all eyes on me to, No, I'm here to actually, to do something.

[00:11:45] Jessica: you've nailed it. I mean, that is exactly it. It's about if, if, if, first of all, it does actually help. So with speakers I work with who are a bit more nervous, we switch, we do shift that focus. You know, it's, it's really not a, it doesn't have to be about you. It can be about the thing you're speaking about and it can be about what you're trying to get out in the world.

And I would say that my favorite speakers. Other ones to speak, not because they love speaking, but because the, what they're talking about is more important than their fear.

[00:12:18] Hannah: What they're talking about is more important than their fear. How do you get them to speak in the first place? Have you ever worked with. Do you work with introverts or people who are essentially almost like, you know, it's daunting to go on stage? How, how do

[00:12:37] Jessica: It's not just stage, you know, it's like important meetings, presentations, that conversation with your boss, like, All of the times when you have to communicate something under pressure, where you have to persuade or influence, I see all of that falling under the same category and it can make people feel the same, right? There are lots of things. And one of the things that I often try to do with people is ask them to imagine. So to ask you to imagine, When do you feel best communicating? When does all of this, the, the physical or the psychological or the internal or the feeling go away and you feel really good communicating?

[00:13:20] Hannah: So for, for me, for example, it's often when I feel like I have an audience in front of me that, you know, I know this is relevant for. I know this is going to add value. they are, you know, I'm not going to bore them with it. I know it's relevant. I know it'll land. I know they'll have questions. I can imagine there'll be some sort of interaction, but it feels like I'm not just saying something for the sake of the conversation.

of me being visible in the workplace, of me, you know, shining and, you know, being visible, getting a promotion at the end of the day. But almost like I can add some value here and people are really going to take something away that is not, that is at the end of the day, not about myself. That's how I often feel.

[00:14:04] Jessica: I mean, I think that's great. And so then your kind of first step is always to be, how can I put myself in that? situation. How can every single time I'm speaking, I feel like I'm adding value. I feel like there's a purpose for me to be there. And, you know, sometimes it's as simple as like, let's say you're invited to speak somewhere.

Could be a meeting, could be a panel, wherever, is to say, thank you for inviting me. Can you tell me a bit more about why me?

[00:14:29] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Great point.

[00:14:32] Jessica: Like what, what, you know, like for me, uncertainty is what like, like, like big gaps in my knowledge is what brings about nervousness, you know, when I'm not really sure why I'm there or who the audience is or what they want from me or what, you know, is the point,

[00:14:50] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:14:51] Jessica: and. The thing to do really is to just ask, ask the person who's invited you, in, you know, not in an accusatory way, but like, you know, I just like to know more, and people will have rationale for why they think you would be, you're needed, or you would be a great voice, and sometimes you just have to believe them.

As well. you know, when someone says to you, well, I just think you're really great at telling the story, I think you're just really great at making this point. And you may be like, I don't think that's true.

[00:15:23] Hannah: pretty sure.

[00:15:25] Jessica: Yeah. I mean, it's, and it's understandable. Right. But then I think to myself, flip it is what you're actually saying that, that you don't trust their judgment, that you think they're a bad judge of their own work. And I think most people would not say that, right. Cause they wouldn't want to like accuse someone of being like, you don't know nothing, you know, it's coming from a place of insecurity. And so you just got to, you have to trust others. So, so, you know, identifying what makes you feel, at ease for some people, it's, really knowing they're not content for some people it's big groups versus small groups or small groups versus big groups.

And so you've just got to try and recreate some of that. As you practice to get better.

[00:16:09] Hannah: Yeah. I love this element of feeling at ease because I think, especially introverts in the workplace, they're often being told. You know, in order to get more visible in order to put yourself out there, you need to, you know, go in front of large audiences, you know, present at a town hall meeting, make sure you're visible to senior management and all these things, which make us really like, make me really uncomfortable.

And I've tried, I've tried all that, but I often felt like. There are instances in which I can present very well in front of an audience. And then there are instances where it just feels so uncomfortable to a point where I miss my train of thoughts. It's almost like the blackout that you have when you don't, when you, you know, miss your, miss everything.

I always see black. I always get, you know, red face and sweaty, and I just feel uncomfortable to my core and. Yeah, it's, it's these different settings, as you say, it's like, you know, an audience where I'm not too sure what are people going to think about me? Are they going to resonate with this? Is this even relevant or relevant for them as opposed to an audience where I'm like, well, they've invited me.

They want me here.

[00:17:22] Jessica: Mm hmm, mm hmm.

[00:17:23] Hannah: I have something to share that. They're interested in, so that makes a big difference. Yeah.

[00:17:29] Jessica: I can, you know, it just, it's so logical, right? Like, we don't want to waste people's time. but let me tell you something. With very, very few exceptions, most audiences you speak to are not psychopaths. Right? They're not sitting there, they're not sitting there thinking, I really hope you fail. I really hope that this speaker just crashes and burns and runs off stage crying.

And that's not because they're altruists either. It's because we're all selfish. If you're taking the time out of your day to go listen to someone, which I think is like a really big gift, you want that person to do well because you want to be able to get something positive from it. So, and I can prove this because I know that if I think about the last time you were in the audience, how you felt towards the speaker, you were not wishing for them to fail. So you first have to make the assumption that the audience doesn't start from a place of hostility, right? They start from a place of selfish support,

[00:18:37] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:18:38] Jessica: right? So if they're on your side from the beginning, the idea is how do you keep them on your side? And so you, you, you said this, like you've said this, and I think this is so important is You're doing the work to make what you're saying relevant to them in some way and understanding have they been forced to be there?

You know, are they, is this something they choose to do? You know, sometimes I'm brought into companies and organizations and it's really clear that someone senior has said, you need to go to this training and it's just mandatory and people are not very happy with that. so I have to work much harder, you know, I know what I'm saying is great.

I know that they're going to walk away feeling like this has been a good use of their time, but I've got to work harder in the beginning to get over some of that kind of, I don't know why I'm here. Feeling, and there's so many ways to do that. I mean, I do it by actually telling my clients to, to be very clear with the people why they're there.

So that people know this isn't just like some waste of time exercise, but because they, they have like a specific goal in the organization or because they've received certain kinds of feedback or because they want to be able to like grow or whatever it might be. But, You definitely have to understand why they're there.

And if you can understand your audience, you can start to relate to them. You can start to think about how to make what you want to say relevant to them. I mean, the way I think about it sometimes, cause I'm a bit visual is I think about like a river.and I think I'm on one side of the river and my audience, whether it's one person or a room, is on the other side. And my goal is to get them from where they are to where I am, right? I cannot just keep shouting at them to come over. It's not going to work. I have to meet them where they are and I have to bring them over and I have to lay a path that they're willing to follow.

[00:20:39] Hannah: Yeah. It's almost meet them on their side. And then, you know, grasping things from their perspective. What are their feelings? What are their wants needs and bring them over? Yeah.

[00:20:49] Jessica: Lay, lay the stones down in the river in the right number, you know, order and in a way that they feel like they're confident they can cross with you.

[00:20:56] Hannah: Yeah. I think what's important about that is it's going to take some preparation ahead of a meeting to even get you to a point where you feel comfortable because all that work sort of happens before you even go into that meeting before you even get go into that presentation. Right? It's like.

understanding who is going to be there. what's the context of why they're there, etc. And also part of the reason why I believe some of these town halls or all hands meetings,

[00:21:24] Jessica: Mm.

[00:21:25] Hannah: everybody's sort of forced to be there, aren't they? Sort of, you know, we do this every month. So, here's a few presenters and it's almost like sets you up for failure in the first place.

[00:21:37] Jessica: It can feel that way. It can definitely feel that way. I mean, look, I think first thing is there's no shortcut for preparation. There's just nothing. When you see people who have seemingly not prepared, what is because they've done the preparation before. So like, if you're someone in a role or an industry who is very much talking about the same thing quite frequently.

So I talk about storytelling quite a lot, right? Everything I've said to you, I've said before,

[00:22:08] Hannah: yeah.

[00:22:09] Jessica: right? maybe in different ways, different like language configurations, but I'm not just coming up with it, like from scratch right now. And so. If you see people who are just able to speak off the cuff, it's because you haven't seen the work that maybe happened two weeks ago, two years ago, 20 years ago to get them here.

And so the, the preparation piece in one way, shape or form is unavoidable. Right. and there's definitely this idea of like, I don't want to be too prepared. Right. and we can talk about that, but generally there's no, there's no, there is no too prepared.but the other thing is, is to think about when you are in this, let's say all hands meetings and you're asked to prepare is to just think, well, what would I maybe have found useful here if I have to be go to these things all the time as well and take.

Time out of my day. What can I, what can I be generous with here that the audience might find and how, what can I bring that's different? you know, I've, I've worked with senior managers, you know, who have had to regularly speak at these things. And for them, what they found is bringing themselves. So bringing the, the vulnerability and the humanness of themselves is actually what people appreciate because they never get to see that in the meetings with clients or in the one to ones or in the, their performance review or whatever it might be.

So there's, there's, that piece of kind of thinking about it. You're absolutely right. You don't just like, there's no way, especially if you do feel nervous about it. There's no way to just go from zero to a hundred. Right.

[00:23:47] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. I really like that prompt of like, what can I be generous with? What can I bring that is different? Because, oh, I speak my love language so much because I love anything, especially in corporate that is unconventional, that is just different. That just cuts through the buzzwords and the jargon and what has always been done, you know, a certain way.

And so I think, and it's something that I believe introverts. Resonate because we're often appalled by, you know, things that just kind of run their usual ways. And so, being that person who makes that different and who brings a different perspective and something that's maybe a bit unconventional could be a huge value add and something that then also feels good.

[00:24:35] Jessica: Yes.

[00:24:35] Hannah: I love that.

[00:24:37] Jessica: If you are enjoying yourself, it's just gonna be a better experience. If you feel aligned, it's just gonna be a better experience, right? And, and in those ways, it's really is important to think about you. Like I am not saying you stop thinking about you altogether, but. You know, it's this beautiful, like, I think, harmony between you and your audience that can feel really good.

[00:25:01] Hannah: It just goes back to the saying of you can't beat somebody who's having fun. And yeah, I really like that.

[00:25:09] Jessica: Absolutely.

[00:25:10] Hannah: Now you touched on, you touched on preparation versus winging it. And I always feel like, I always felt like there were certain parts of presenting, of storytelling, of speaking. That just kind of required you to wing it, especially when it comes to a corporate context.

And especially when it comes to meetings, and you often can't prepare every single thing you're going to say, when it comes to speaking in corporate or giving presentations. What's your recommendation as to how can we prepare? How do we get to a point where we're prepared, where we're ready, where we feel confident?

But not, you know, not that point of over preparation where we just get anxiety and just kind of feel stuck. Yeah.

[00:26:02] Jessica: every single day that needs like three months of preparation. Right. So I get that. I think the key is, so I help, I sometimes work with speakers on like a bit of a checklist for them to think about how to prepare in a way that works most effectively.

And really the key things here are the most important parts of this checklist are Why am I speaking and who is my audience? So, you know, if you're going into a meeting, what's your purpose in this meeting, right? Like, what are you supposed to bring or contribute or be there for? Do you have some, and if you do need to communicate something, what is like the most important thing you need to communicate?

In that meeting, and then also who's there and why are they there, you know, even just asking yourself those 2 questions can be really helpful in just grounding and centering yourself when you go into situations where you're not quite sure, like, how much you might be asked to speak or, you know. whether you need, like, you're not going to prepare a formal presentation.

but, you know, there are lots of different things people can do. You know, you can take notes, you can be thinking about it. But the thing that I always think about is that it's all about like opportunities to practice. And so these kinds of situations where maybe it's a bit lower risk are also great opportunities to practice for moments when it's higher risk.

[00:27:29] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:27:30] Jessica: So, you know, can you test things out? In those situations before you use them elsewhere.

[00:27:39] Hannah: Yeah. Almost like do I present in front of a smaller group or in a setting that I am used to or within my team, and it feels really quite safe before I then go into other teams, bigger audiences.

[00:27:53] Jessica: Yeah. I mean, I have to say like it floors me as someone who's comfortable speaking now after years, it floors me the idea that you would take something that you've never said out loud. Into an important meeting or presentation, like, I can't imagine a situation in which it's a good idea to present something to a client, to your team, to your boss, to whoever, where the first time you're saying it is then that moment.

[00:28:27] Hannah: Yeah, but it's such an important learning because I think most of us in the corporate setting think that that's exactly how it works. I think what we often, what we tend to do is we focus a lot on the content on the slide deck and like, you know, the pretty PowerPoint and like laying it all out. And then I'm pretty sure that most of us, you know, never really ever say things out before they.

Then present in a meeting. How, what would you, what would your recommendation be on like preparation of content versus the actual, presentation, like how much is the, what you say and then the, how you say it and bring it across? Yeah. Yeah. Oh,

[00:29:12] Jessica: say is deeply more important than how you say it. And the, but the way to think about this is, is really great delivery cannot save bad content, but really poor delivery can kill good content. So you don't

[00:29:31] Hannah: know that there was, there was nothing relieving in there.

[00:29:35] Jessica: You know, it's, it's not, unfortunately, there's no, there's no, so, but the thing is, is you always start with the content.

You have to start with the content and then you move on to the delivery. But the delivery doesn't have to be perfect. The delivery just has to be competent. If your content is really good, people will have something to work with. And what I mean here is there are some absolute rules here in classic things that you're not, you should never do.

You should never, ever read it off your slides. Like there is no context that I can actually imagine where you would read off a slide in any industry and in any level that I've been in. If it's written on the slide and you're reading it, you're essentially an audio book for the slide and the person can read faster than you can speak.

[00:30:28] Hannah: I often, I often think that when somebody reads one slide.

[00:30:31] Jessica: Exactly. And you, you, and it's terrible. I mean, we've all been there in an audience, right? I mean, just want you to imagine the last time you sat in a meeting and someone opened up this PowerPoint presentation with just all of this text, just paragraphs and paragraphs of text, and they just started reading it.

[00:30:49] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:30:50] Jessica: Your heart sinks. And you think,

[00:30:53] Hannah: in the audience.

[00:30:55] Jessica: no, your heart sinks. And you think, okay, Okay. This is going to be a really long half an hour.

[00:31:00] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:31:02] Jessica: What you might prepare for a presentation that you send to someone to read is very different from what you might prepare for a presentation where you are the narrator.

[00:31:13] Hannah: Right. Yeah.

[00:31:15] Jessica: emailing to someone, there's no narrator.

So you do need to actually have it have copy so that then the copy does the work for you. But if you're then presenting that deck, you need to take the time. Like, if you want to be really good at this, you need to take the time to make the adjustment, right? So take all those words off your slide. Keep phrases, keep headlines, keep key points.

You're the narrator. Right. You want, your slides should not compete with you for your audience's attention.

[00:31:49] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:50] Jessica: minute you give someone the opportunity to read something, they're going to read it rather than listen to you

[00:31:56] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:31:57] Jessica: because their brain is faster.

[00:31:59] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:32:01] Jessica: Sometimes when I'm working with speakers, I have to actually close my eyes to not look at their slides because I can't, I'm even doing this professionally.

My brain wants to jump ahead. It wants to read what's on the slide. So you, you need to think about it that way. Okay. But that means, right, what, what is, like, what's the logical conclusion of that? It means you need to know your material really well. If it's not on the slide behind you where you can just read it, then it means that you have to know it.

And that's what scares people truly.

[00:32:30] Hannah: Yeah. It does take some skills, doesn't it? To get to a point where you can do that. But I often feel like. Especially in a corporate setting, those are the kind of presentations that I remember or where I remember what the person said and what the presentation was about because I didn't look at the slide.

I didn't see, you know, things building and animations coming in. And I, I'm a sucker for a good PowerPoint slide. Absolutely. But, the most impactful ones are the ones with very little, very lean.

[00:33:03] Jessica: Yes, exactly.

[00:33:06] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:33:07] Jessica: know, so many people will start preparing for a presentation by opening a PowerPoint. Right. And thinking about the design and I'm not, look, some people use PowerPoint to think, you know, they think like one idea per slide, things like that. That's different. You know, I'm not talking about that, but the idea that you would start to design your PowerPoint before you actually know what you're going to say is like writing a book by starting with the cover. You know, it doesn't, it's not going to, it's not going to work for you. It's not going to help. And I know why people do it is because it's easier. It just, it's less daunting, right. Then going straight into the content. But

[00:33:46] Hannah: True.

[00:33:47] Jessica: the other reason why keeping your slides super lean, as you said, is really effective is because it forces you to focus your content.

You know, the other analogy I like to make is that sometimes when people ask to give a presentation, they will. Try to be like, okay, I've got 10 minutes. I am going to cram in everything I possibly can into this 10 minutes. I'm going to speak fast. I'm going to make a million points. That's like trying to cook like a very specific recipe by just taking everything in your fridge and putting it in a pot and hoping for the best.

You're just not going to get it.

[00:34:22] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:34:23] Jessica: And if you don't do the work to decide on the ingredients, to decide on the order, to decide on the recipe, right, audience will either walk away with nothing, or they might just like randomly, I mean, we've all been in this, right? You're presenting to the board and they just like randomly hook on to something you've said, and it's not the point of your, of what you're trying to say, but now they've completely derailed the whole thing. Right. Okay. It can happen to all of us.

[00:34:55] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:34:55] Jessica: Sometimes it's unavoidable, but you can try to avoid it by being clearer about what you're including.

[00:35:03] Hannah: Yeah. And I really like that. And I feel like there's also a lot of, a big difference that we can make in the corporate world by adhering to these things, because most people will not put that the time in to create experiences like that. Most people will have. 50 page PowerPoint deck for a half hour presentation and just with zero and nobody will remember anything, but, especially for introverts in the workplace, I think the way to differentiate without having to, you know, put yourself out there too much, or just kind of make yourself uncomfortable.

Is actually a great presentation or a great experience during a meeting where you go, you start from your why, why are we here? Who's my audience? What are the key messages? What do I want them to leave with at the end of the session and can create so much of a difference without having to be, you know, extroverting or, you know, any of the uncomfortable stuff.

[00:36:00] Jessica: Yeah. I mean, and you know, so this is, you did ask a bit about delivery, right? Because there is this other, there is this other piece to it. And I think there's something hand in hand here. Like, I don't think that anyone should try to be. Any other way than the way they are.and there's a real reason for that.

So when you are, like, pretend, like when you're trying to put on a person, persona, a personality, right? unless you're like a, a professional, like a, a comedian, an actor or comedian or something like that, your audience will immediately detect that something is off. Now, they won't know what is off, they'll just know something is off and that absolutely stops them from building a trust relationship with you as a speaker. And if your audience doesn't trust you, they're not going to listen to you. And it may be for the best reasons, right? You might be trying to project confidence. You may be just trying to be louder. Someone's told you, you speak too quietly and now you're trying to speak really loudly. Yeah.

[00:37:07] Hannah: A hundred percent. I think a lot of, a lot of introverts in the workplace or in general are being told to make themselves louder to, you know, to speak up, to, you know, to transform their voice to a certain extent. And I'm really interested with how you work with speakers to find their unique voice and their unique style of speaking, because for me, for example.

I know that I have a very calm voice. I'm not too, you know, and I've always thought, you know, I, you know, I need to be more charismatic. I need to be more engaging, you know, a little bit louder, a bit more passionate in the way I speak. But like you said, it never worked when I tried it out. So, so I was like, how do you find your style?

How do you stay true to who you are? Because that's often easier said than done, if I'm honest.

[00:37:56] Jessica: course, of course it's, what does it mean to be authentic? Right. It's like the word everyone uses and it has no meaning. So first thing I would say to you is that, I want you to think about being, instead of being like, you said, people say, you put yourself out there, be whatever. It's not, they're not using the right word.

In my opinion, I think what they mean is we want you to be more impactful. And if you think about it as being impactful, then you have many roots to there. Okay. Not just speaking more or putting a, you know, being louder or whatever. So the question is, how do you be impactful? For me, number one is great content.

So you start there, right? But then you think about delivery. So I always think you start where you are. So if you are someone who is softer spoken, a bit quieter, a bit more considered, a bit more still, let's say, great. That's your starting point. I want you to be the best at that. First of all, Right. I just want you to be the best, best, best version of that.

But the thing to keep in mind is that. No person is a monotone, right? So you will have moments where you, in your communication, I mean, I've seen it in the podcast with you. You have variation where you are a bit louder and a bit quieter and a bit soft, you know, a bit faster and a bit slower. And you. You know, all of the, it's the variation that makes someone interesting to listen to.

It doesn't matter if the variation is too soft or the variation is too loud. It's the variation that matters. There was someone who's on the other end, who's, you know, hands and moving and nah, you know, all this kind of stuff. And I'm loud. And my, the thing I have to do deliberately is to use, you know, Softer, slower, less exaggerated movements from time to time. But they're natural to me because I'm not like this all the time. Like no one is this all the time and no one is still all the time. When you're talking to a friend or a colleague or family, we have variation. It's about bringing that into your natural style. That's what the authenticity means. It's start where you are and lean into it.

You know, don't try to be what you think others either need or want you to be. And this is, I mean, there's so much of this that is deeply rooted in sexism and racism and all of this stuff. You know, I work with people of color all the time, you know, who have had to code switch and mask the way that they communicate, because that was the only way that it was acceptable.

So I say this with complete understanding that. It's not like so easy, right? But if you're someone who wants to make that journey into figuring out what does it mean to be authentically me, it's, it is really about finding how you can be most you and then how you bring in the natural human variation into that.and, and, and that is about then being more impactful because if you imagine if every, like I said, say, imagine your favorite speaker. I mean, do you have someone who you think is the most amazing speaker? Yeah.

[00:41:18] Hannah: Well, I would always think of one of the classics, like Sheryl Sandberg, for example, Steve Jobs.

[00:41:25] Jessica: Great. Fine. I agree. They are great speakers. imagine if every single person in the world sounded like them,

[00:41:31] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:33] Jessica: Boring. Very boring.not only do we like variation when we speak, we also like variation between speakers, right? So It's your job to figure out what is your contribution? Like what is your voice?

And one of the things to do is to not, you know, try to cut something off. I don't want you to think about it as like an on off switch. This is the most important thing. I want you to think about who you are as a series of dials. You know, it's all about finding the right frequency, the right levels across these dials for different audiences, for different places.

And if you think you have to turn yourself off to be accepted, you're always going to feel inauthentic to your audience.

[00:42:21] Hannah: You're such a great visual speaker in terms of like, the, the

[00:42:25] Jessica: It's just because that's how my brain works, right? Like I, yeah, like that's how I see things. Like I, you know, and so, and that's what I mean is if you're someone who sees things that way, then you're kind of, the thing you lean into is figuring out how to verbalize it. If you're someone who sees things in different structures or in a more way that has to do with color or numbers or shapes, you lean into it, right?

[00:42:49] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. And I like the sentiment of like, the, the, the dial instead of an on and off switch, because what I think happens, especially in the workplace is we think of ourselves as like a persona and now I'm at work and now I'm giving this presentation and now I need to be this person and instead. To think that, no, I need to be my most authentic self, or I need to be true to who I am.

And then there's nuances within that, and I can dial it up for certain things, or dial it back for certain things. But at the end of the day, It's making it more genuine and it's making it feel more like we belong. Like, you know, we have a contribution to make and, all around more, more comfortable, I'd say at the end of the day, because we spend a lot of energy on like, just kind of being there in the first place.

[00:43:41] Jessica: Yes, yes. And taking on other people's baggage, you know, the thing is, is that so much of what people tell us is projected from the things that they are, have either been forced upon them or they feel insecure about. You know, a lot of your Managers, not everyone, because sometimes you're lucky and your manager is younger than you, but a lot of people there, there's more senior people in their organizations are older.

And they come from a time when you didn't have to be loud and commanding and, and traditionally masculine, right. to be heard, but that advice may not resonate anymore. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:27] Hannah: I'm most passionate about in terms of introverts in the workplace, conventional career advice. is for extroverts, is made for extroverts. Workplaces, corporate settings are made for extroverts, but it's not like introverts are a minority. It's like almost half. The population, it's always half of the people in the workforce are introverted.

And yet so little of the advice, so little of the speaking advice of the communications advice is geared to help introverts. And that's why I really, really wanted to have this conversation and just kind of feel into, you know, how can introverts get more visible, more noticed in the workplace in a way that doesn't take away from their personality.

Just why loving this. Yeah.

[00:45:13] Jessica: as a, as an extrovert that one of the things I value the most and, and I, and I not just value, I envy the most about introverts is. When you're in a meet, in a, in a situation, a meeting or something. And, and I, I, I just speak too much and I'm constantly there. And then you'll have that person who is like the most thoughtful person and they'll have spent the whole time, like deeply listening and thinking. And they will say one thing and it will be like groundbreaking. And I will have said like a thousand useless things. And I, I envy that contribution because it's impactful.

[00:45:53] Hannah: Yeah. I love

[00:45:55] Jessica: And, and so that is actually, I aim for that. Like that is what, if I could, if I could change it, if I could, like, what I'm trying to do is I can, I want to be more that.

And so actually I mean about being, being impactful is really what you're aiming for. And you only need one good contribution to be impactful.

[00:46:17] Hannah: loving this. I keep saying that I think introverts what makes an introvert is not necessarily, you know, being shy or being more reserved for being quiet and calm. I feel like it's that focus on your inner world. It's and it's such a rich in our world. There's so much so many ideas that come from, you know, an introvert just being quiet with their headphones on working by themselves and there is so much within them that I keep thinking we need more of that on in the outside world, obviously.

And this is where. I really want to have this conversation with you because obviously you curate new stories and you're always looking for, you know, new stories to bring. How do you get to these stories? Like, how do you get to ideas and perspectives that people might be holding in and how can we get more introverts?

So just kind of like. Share and just kind of like, you know, bring some of these ideas. I'm not saying all of them, but some of these ideas, they must make it into the outside world because they're fabulous. Brilliant.

[00:47:21] Jessica: I'm so happy you've asked this question because I will say that my work is, all of my work, which I wear many different hats, is rooted all in one thing, which is that I really believe that we're at like a societal crossroads. Right. I've been saying this for so many years now, and now it just feels very cliche, but I, I really do feel like the decisions we make today are going to affect the trajectory of the next hundred years in the kinds of societies and communities we get to live in.

[00:47:53] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:47:54] Jessica: and I think that there's some things that are going super right, but I think there are some things that we can all agree on that are not going the way we want them to go and we can see the path that takes us to that worst future. Right. And it's harder sometimes to see the path, to take us to the future that we know is possible and exists, that is, you know, more joyful and fair and sustainable and wonderful. And I think the way we get there is great stories and great ideas. But I do not think that we can get there by listening to the same voices and the same stories that got us here. As valuable and as wonderful as they may have been and rich, we need more. We need new stories and new ideas from new storytellers.

And so everything I do is to try and enable those people, because I also think it's unreasonable to expect. Groups of people who have been systematically unheard to spontaneously like stand up and be like, here's my great idea, you know, in this eloquent and wonderful way is, do I see myself as an ability to like, try and unlock some of that?

So I love this question because that. Entirely what I do. And, you know, the thing is, is that, yes, it's hard because the people you see, the people you always find first are the people who talk about what they do. And so much of my work is about going beyond that. And whether we do that by finding insiders.

Who can be like, you never heard that this person, but I've seen their work and it's amazing. And they're never going to, you're never going to find them because they don't even have a social media account, but I can introduce you. Or it's about going to the usual suspects and asking them who are the unusual suspects.

Who are people that you think people should be hearing from that no one's heard from before? So really, I think when you're a curator and, when you're trying to do this work, your job is to kind of go beyond the usual suspects. You know, I, for TEDxLondon, for example, the team and I had this real vision where we want to be the first place to hear about someone that you then never stop hearing

[00:50:04] Hannah: I love that. Yeah.

[00:50:07] Jessica: want to bring people you've heard of from a thousand times unless they're saying something extremely unexpected. So that is the vision that drives me. And I really think that, you know, in what you're trying to do here and your community, the thing I would leave with them with is you have ideas.

That could help make the world better. You kind of owe it to all of us to tell us about them because we really need it.and so if that helps you find the strategies and the ways to speak up at the times that you feel comfortable to do so, awesome.

[00:50:51] Hannah: Yeah. I keep saying you're doing people a disservice by not speaking up about, you know, an idea that you have about something that you, or even it doesn't even have to be an idea because an idea always comes with a lot of expectation, but maybe you just see something that's wrong or you just see something that isn't working or you just see something where you say to yourself, I'm kind of a different opinion.

I kind of feel like. This could, this could be better.so I really like that. if you were to leave my audience with one thing, like if they have an idea like that, or if they know about something that is just wrong, what's like the first step from, you know, taking this idea from their rich inner world into the outside world?

Who is the first person they should tell? What should they be doing? What's the first step?

[00:51:41] Jessica: I always think, start by talking about it in the most comfortable places.and just test it out. Find the language that you need to express it the most, in the most effective way. And really the only way to do that is to take it from inside out. And so, you know, do like, it's all of that, like stuff is so cliche, but it's so true.

Like perfect is the enemy of the good. I don't need your ideas to be fully formed because this is very much the rough draft, but until it makes contact with reality, it will not survive. So take it and start having conversations with people so that you can learn the language you need to be able to effectively to talk about it.

[00:52:32] Hannah: yeah. I think that's a piece around how do we articulate ourselves in a way that is impactful? Because when we hear ideas from others, it often feels like this, you know, articulate, you know, very polished idea or somebody is even, you know, pitching. And, we often feel like we, we can't articulate ourselves in that same way, but it's probably about saying the same thing a hundred different times until you're nailing it and honoring that it might take that

[00:52:58] Jessica: Yeah. Basically don't, don't compare your insides to someone's outsides. Don't compare the way it feels like raw and inarticulate to something that someone has spent a decade honing. Right. If you, if only you could hear the first version of that, you would be so surprised. So it's, it's that just that unfortunate understanding that until you start, iterating on it, it's never going to get where you want it to be.

And that iteration, some of it can absolutely happen inside. And sometimes it is inside, then it goes out and then it comes back and it goes out. It comes back right into that rich inner world. But at some point it has to, has to make contact with reality, like the outside world.

[00:53:45] Hannah: Yeah, it takes the first draft and then a hundred of iterations, and then you'll get, you'll get to the other side. I love that Maryam. I've looked at the time and I can't believe, I can't believe it's over. It's like this rarely happens to me, but, I had so much fun. I have. 10, 000 other questions, but we'll leave it there for today.

And, please let my audience know where they can find you, where they can potentially learn more about storytelling and, you know, attend one of the TEDx events, share ideas with you if they want to.

[00:54:20] Jessica: Thank you very much. So, well, thank you again for having me. It's been delightful. And I hope that if just one thing resonates with people today, that that's valuable with them, you can find me with most of my work around storytelling on LinkedIn. so follow me there. I've got a newsletter. Every comes out every month with tips and also, some of the great projects I'm working on.

One of those being TEDxLondon. And if you follow me there, you'll hear about all the great All of our upcoming events, how to share ideas with us and do all of that great stuff.

[00:54:50] Hannah: I love that. We'll link it in the show notes and

[00:54:53] Jessica: Thank you.

[00:54:54] Hannah: Aram, thank you so much for, for joining us today. It was lovely.

[00:54:59] Jessica: Thank you for having me.