Opening: Hello and welcome to Left of the Projector. I am your host Evan,

Opening: back again with another film discussion from the left.

Opening: You can follow the show at leftoftheprojector.com.

Opening: It would be greatly appreciated if you could like, follow, subscribe,

Opening: and leave a rating. It's much appreciated.

Opening: This week on the show, we dial it back to the year 1976 for the Satirical Comedy Network.

Opening: It is directed by Sidney Lumet and it stars Faye Dunaway, William Holden,

Opening: Peter Finch, and Robert Duvall.

Opening: Back on the show, I have Andre Sway.

Opening: Andre joined me months back for an episode on Men in Black.

Opening: And I have him back again to discuss this pretty relevant and pertinent film in the year 2024.

Opening: I hope you enjoy this week's episode on Network.

Evan: All right. Well, thank you for joining me today, Andre.

Andre: How are you doing, Evan?

Evan: Good. Thanks for coming back. For anyone who's been listening for a while,

Evan: Andre was on for a discussion on Men in Black.

Evan: But we're back to discuss network and

Evan: I'm gonna try hard not to refer to it as the network because it's weird that

Evan: it's just network but I know I swear I like kept searching for him like why

Evan: is it not coming up for the network but yeah I guess before we jump into the

Evan: to the movie discussion I don't if you wanted to introduce introduce yourself

Evan: tell anyone about any of your you know work that's going on anything like that so.

Andre: I'm Andres way I'm a graduate student at I'm not gonna tell you where I'm a

Andre: graduate student right now getting my my master's degree.

Andre: Uh, I've studied film at the collegiate level, uh, for a little over four years now.

Andre: And I really enjoy it a lot. Uh, I have a podcast called thank you for consuming

Andre: that is out on Spotify and, uh, YouTube.

Andre: And, uh, yeah, you can just find that at thank you for consuming on,

Andre: uh, most social media platforms.

Andre: But yeah, I love movies, watch a lot of them. Wanted to talk to my friend, Evan.

Evan: Yeah, no, I'm glad to have you back. I love, uh, we had a great discussion last time.

Evan: And the network is, for anyone, everyone heard the intro. It's back from the 1970s, 1976.

Evan: According to Wikipedia's generic description, it's a satirical black comedy drama.

Evan: So they just decided to include every name.

Evan: But before we jump into the film, I've been doing this just for fun.

Evan: Just curious what people say is, if you could have dinner with any actor,

Evan: or whether it's someone living, dead, maybe I'm putting you on the spot a little

Evan: bit, but what would you go with?

Andre: It has to be an actor.

Evan: I'm just thinking actor because it's a movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andre: I was thinking, obviously, one of the first people that comes to mind is Stanley Kubrick.

Andre: He's not an actor. Obviously, he's a director.

Andre: I wonder how fucked up that guy's head is.

Andre: I wonder how annoying he is. Have you ever seen Dinner with Andre by any chance?

Evan: Oh, yeah.

Andre: I started watching it recently, and I just didn't enjoy it.

Andre: It's just like a conversation with like a really pretentious person

Andre: you know that's like what it is you know i i feel

Andre: like that's what a conversation with stanley kubrick would be like and i'd

Andre: like to have a conversation with him and like pick his brain because he

Andre: seems so intense and so like deeply serious

Andre: so having a conversation with him would be pretty good and

Andre: then obviously i feel like you have to throw like denzel washington in there

Andre: uh just like he seems like somebody who would just give good life advice and

Andre: would just be fun to talk to be able to tell a whole bunch cool stories uh so

Andre: yeah i think like stanley kubrick as a director and then denzel washington as

Andre: an actor is someone who i would definitely like consider talking to.

Evan: Stanley kubrick is a good one i i also can't imagine

Evan: what it would be like to uh to talk to him i mean that i think director also

Evan: counts i mean that's i guess someone within movies but for me i don't know i

Evan: i always have to think of someone different i would probably say just because

Evan: i watched a couple of his movies recently is William Friedkin.

Evan: He directed Exorcist and a whole bunch of other movies.

Evan: And I just watched a few of them recently. And he also seems kind of crazy.

Evan: I mean, maybe that kind of goes with the territory of some of these directors

Evan: is that he was known to just be a lunatic on the set, requiring all...

Evan: Same thing with Stanley Kubrick.

Evan: I feel like they're cut from the same cloth, the same demanding everything.

Evan: But yeah, it would be interesting to hear all the stories behind Exorcist to

Evan: see if they're actually all true, what he thinks about them.

Evan: You know, anyone out there who hasn't watched, there's an exorcist documentary.

Evan: It's worth finding on YouTube. It's a wild ride.

Andre: I also think Steve Buscemi would be on there. I was just thinking about like

Andre: actors who I love watching and I just watched the death of Stalin and Steve Buscemi.

Andre: I'd love to hear what he has to say. He seems fun and he seems like he'd have a lot of stories.

Evan: Yeah, it's funny. It's funny you mentioned him. What I'm trying to think, I'm now blanking on it.

Evan: He's been in a whole bunch of Coen Brothers movies, but he was in Miller's Crossing

Evan: with his, I think, first acting role.

Evan: And they essentially chose him because he could say lines really fast.

Evan: And that's how he got his first role. He could just spit lines really quickly.

Evan: And he does seem like a pretty cool dude.

Andre: I find it so funny that you bring up, that you mentioned Miller's Crossing,

Andre: because I had never heard of this film before.

Andre: But one of my professors absolutely loves studying under him,

Andre: Marco Abel. He wrote this book

Andre: called Violent Affect Literature Cinema Critique After Representation.

Andre: And it's essentially just about the use of violence in film.

Andre: And it's something that seemed like it would be incredibly relevant to me.

Andre: So I decided to start reading it. And the first chapter is literally over Miller's Crossing.

Andre: And I'm like, I've never seen that film. I don't want to read this chapter if I haven't seen it yet.

Andre: So yeah, I'm glad that you've seen that as well. Do you think it's worth watching?

Evan: Oh, yeah. It's great. great it's so i hadn't seen

Evan: it until maybe a year ago and someone requested to

Evan: do it on the podcast i'm like well i guess i i should watch it i've watched

Evan: it two or three times since then or in preparation and it's it's very good it's

Evan: like a period piece that doesn't feel dated and the violence as since you're

Evan: talking about the violence of it it's very i don't want to give too much away

Evan: but there's one particular scene kind of in the middle i started watching.

Andre: It and i.

Evan: Like ended.

Andre: It after like 20 minutes i don't do that very often but i'll have to go back to it i'll have to go I.

Evan: Have to say the first time I saw it, the first 25, 30 minutes kind of felt slow,

Evan: but it really does pick up.

Evan: I have to say when you say that, it's like I could see the first bit of it kind

Evan: of being like, oh, what am I getting into here?

Andre: And I'm like, I got to pay attention. You know, that's the thing.

Evan: Too. Like, that's why you get to see Buscemi. But yeah, as far as you know,

Evan: you I guess we've talked briefly about different movies you've mentioned,

Evan: you know, as ones you want to talk about.

Evan: But you brought up the you brought up Network, not the Network.

Evan: So I guess, what brought you to think about this one today?

Evan: Not today, but in 2024?

Andre: So I do this every time that I travel.

Andre: So I've got my undergrad in Kentucky, and I'm getting my master's degree in

Andre: Nebraska right now. I'm from Missouri.

Andre: So there's always these times of the year to where I'm traveling back.

Andre: So I'll be driving for five, six hours. And I decided to just start watching

Andre: movies while I do it. Sue me, I know.

Andre: I just like, I try to watch shit that I either will never watch or that I've

Andre: already seen or something that I'll just listen to.

Andre: Network typically wouldn't be up there, you know, but I just turned it on and

Andre: it resonated with me so hard.

Andre: Like few films have captivated me as much as network has.

Andre: And I think that's because of its satirical elements, you know?

Andre: It is very much like a black comedy satirical film in a way that I really enjoy.

Andre: So what brought me to it was just how relevant it was. I've also been writing

Andre: about satire for the last four or five months for my degree in master's school.

Andre: And I just love the political poignancy of satire as a comedic vehicle.

Andre: And I think that this film just does it a phenomenal service you know.

Evan: Yeah I think not only is it just an incredible

Evan: satire and all of those things you said

Evan: but it's also kind of incredible how prophetic I think it was in so many ways

Evan: I mean we'll get into a lot of the even just in the early stages of this uh

Evan: of the uh the movie like I feel like it really kind of um I don't want to say

Evan: predict but sort of describes you know these sensationalized news stories you see you know,

Evan: from Fox News and other networks,

Evan: of course, but it really is incredible, all the elements.

Evan: And I guess just as a very brief, I'm not going to summarize the entire film

Evan: for anyone who hasn't seen it. But it takes place in 1975.

Evan: And there's a sort of star anchor, longtime anchor named Howard Beale, who's fired.

Evan: And actually, it's funny enough, he was fired on September 22,

Evan: which was my birthday. I just thought that was funny.

Evan: But he, you know, he's fired from the news, And he goes back on and he says

Evan: he's going to kill himself.

Evan: And then they, you know, eventually let him go back on to apologize.

Evan: And he starts kind of going out and doing kind of a, I guess you could call

Evan: it a kind of populist, you know, everything is bullshit, you know, all about life.

Evan: And slowly but surely, he's kind of his trajectory of his show kind of completely

Evan: changes as, you know, Faye Dunaway's character in this kind of creates just,

Evan: well, we'll discuss it, just insane,

Evan: making it kind of a mockery of him and his news and everything. thing.

Evan: And, you know, it's just, I don't know, I lost my train of thought.

Evan: But what do you mean? What do you think about the, did you think that it does

Evan: sort of predict where we are as far as news networks and kind of how they operate?

Andre: I don't like the word predict in so far as I like illuminates maybe.

Andre: I think that it definitely speaks to a phenomena that existed,

Andre: not one that I think necessarily hegemonically exists now, you know?

Andre: Uh, I agree with sentiments that this film was relevant in a lot of ways, but I feel like, uh,

Andre: it was relevant in the time that it was created in the era to where television

Andre: and revolution both had the hegemony that they currently do not have.

Andre: Revolution has been put on the back burner functionally

Andre: since the 1960s granted it has been accelerating a lot

Andre: over the last decade uh and then similarly with

Andre: television television doesn't have the same type of

Andre: like power and stranglehold that it used to

Andre: have and even when it did less than

Andre: like two decades ago it wasn't nearly

Andre: focused on the revolutionary aspects as much as

Andre: i feel like it used to be uh so i feel

Andre: like this film if we were to apply it to

Andre: contemporary prairie times we could just sub out the explicit

Andre: fear-mongering about like leftism for just terrorism

Andre: uh because this is just like a

Andre: film about how the television industry works in collaboration with the war on

Andre: terror that's like what the film is on uh so i feel like it's incredibly relevant

Andre: in that way uh because it's not trying to like television studios aren't trying

Andre: to spoon feed people revolution anymore but rather spoon feed them fear if that

Andre: makes sense. Do you know what I mean?

Evan: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, even I would say even more recently

Evan: in the last, I want to say five years, there have been more movies that have

Evan: been trying to capitalize on the idea of revolution,

Evan: anti-capitalist sentiment, but doing it in a way that's very commercial.

Evan: Like I think of like The Menu and I think of Glass Onion and some of those,

Evan: Those, yeah, Triangle of Sadness, those are all kind of talking about revolution

Evan: and talking about these things, but they're not doing it in a way that's actually useful.

Andre: Sure. I don't know. I guess I've just become disillusioned with what the role

Andre: of anti-capitalist film is supposed to be in the first place.

Andre: You know is it supposed to be a template

Andre: on how to firebomb a walmart or is it supposed

Andre: to be a form of critical consciousness raising that

Andre: simply tells a narrative through an anti-capitalist lens uh triangle of sadness

Andre: in particular like i don't think anybody thinks that these movies are revolutionary

Andre: you know they may like draw from like revolutionary uh theology or like uh theories and everything.

Andre: But I think anybody who tries to look towards these movies for any sort of template

Andre: for revolution is going to be thoroughly disappointed.

Andre: Same thing with the network. I don't think the network is necessarily trying

Andre: to provide a template for revolution or anything, but it certainly shows people,

Andre: what activism could look like. Definitely.

Evan: I think one of the other and I'm kind of skipping around a little bit,

Evan: but one of the notes I wrote down when I was watching it, so you have Again, you had Howard Beal.

Evan: He's fired. He decides to...

Evan: They put him back on the air to apologize, and he goes into this populist rant.

Evan: And just as I'm watching it, I noted, it feels like his populist message that

Evan: really, the network didn't air that he was on the air essentially talking about

Evan: things that technically doesn't benefit their status quo type of thing.

Evan: But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter to them.

Evan: And I guess what I'm thinking is,

Evan: does it remind you or is it, do you think it's fair to compare in some way his

Evan: populist message to some of these,

Evan: you know, other more recent populist messages of, you know, kind of newscasters

Evan: where they're trying to use the idea of populism, but they're really using it through a lens of,

Evan: you know, you're on a multi-billion dollar conglomerate TV network.

Evan: You don't really have the pulse of the people, if you will. I don't.

Andre: So I guess, are you asking whether or not I feel like the populism in the show

Andre: is relevant to the populism of modern day?

Evan: Yeah, I guess that. And also, just do you think, I guess, maybe how do you view

Evan: the kind of the populist message that Beale is trying to, or I guess that they're

Evan: putting out through him in the network? work?

Andre: Essentially, I wish that the left would do a populism, you know,

Andre: like, I wish that we could have some sort of like, populist figure,

Andre: the closest that we've gotten to that.

Andre: In recent years, I like to think it's like Bernie Sanders, you know,

Andre: as being like the closest to a populist figure.

Andre: And when it comes to like, television and like news, granted,

Andre: I don't watch CNN, MSNBC, Fox News a lot often.

Andre: But whenever I do think of populism, I think like Newsmax and Fox News and like

Andre: the bad kinds of popular.

Andre: Uh so if anything i like this film for like depicting

Andre: how populism is essentially just

Andre: like a tool for the elites in

Andre: a lot of ways you know like go along with it uh for like a little bit but at

Andre: the end of the day they're not deploying populist messaging because they uh

Andre: genuinely want like material change for the people but rather just because they

Andre: know that it's like a great way to galvanize viewership you know yeah.

Evan: I think of like someone like tucker carlson or some of those other Newsmax anchors

Evan: where they're they're not they don't have the they don't care about the people

Evan: they're doing it because it brings in viewers and it gives you the you know

Evan: that yeah like you said the kind of like the masses kind of galvanizes them

Evan: but it doesn't really get them to.

Andre: Do anything except complain uh this film made me uh like I like it whenever

Andre: I can watch a film and walk away uh learning something different like about

Andre: myself as a person I realized that I'm still very much holding on to the false

Andre: hopes that TV and television of like that movies and television have sold me,

Andre: you know, and that's what I feel like the network does a really good job of

Andre: like diagnosing the fact that like, people are so we've become so enveloped

Andre: in media that we think that our life is media, you know, for like,

Andre: for me, for example, right?

Andre: My mother and father both struggled with addiction.

Andre: I witnessed my father pass away. I had to conduct CPR on him.

Andre: Before that, my method mother kicked me out. And then my father passed away.

Andre: All of these things, I were like, oh my God, that's a great first act.

Andre: I'm going to do great things.

Andre: I have to go be a director, an actor, a president.

Andre: Any of these bombastic-ass beliefs. Leafs.

Andre: This film helped me realize that a lot of the stuff that we think is going to

Andre: happen in our lives is because we've been trained and conditioned in a lot of

Andre: ways by narratives and media tropes to think that that's what's going to happen.

Andre: And the network just straight up has a line to where they're just like,

Andre: you need to quit thinking that your life is the movies because it's not.

Andre: They sold you the movies and they sold you a lie.

Andre: And I'm just like, damn, okay, I guess I'm never doing Hollywood stuff.

Andre: And that's fine. That's fine.

Evan: It's crazy, though, that you think about them using those lines in,

Evan: again, 1976 when this comes out.

Evan: Obviously, Hollywood had been around for decades upon decades,

Evan: and people understood how it works. And actually, I'm going to slightly change

Evan: gears just because I'm thinking about the screenplay. And this is something I learned only today.

Evan: So The Network was directed by Sidney Lumet, but the screenwriter was Paddy

Evan: Chafsky. I think that's how you pronounce it.

Evan: And he apparently... There's different stories about how he got the idea for the movie.

Evan: Apparently, someone actually did commit suicide on air in Florida a couple years

Evan: before this, and he supposedly got the idea as it went through.

Evan: But I learned today that he is...

Evan: A Zionist who wrote essentially propaganda for Israel in the 1970s,

Evan: you know, to apparently also wrote some screenplay then that got shelved because

Evan: of the Yom Kippur War, which I think was in 1973.

Evan: So I don't know how that changes my perspective of the movie at all.

Evan: I don't know that it changes kind of the plot or anything like that.

Evan: But I did find it an interesting thing. I don't know if you,

Evan: how you would take that as.

Andre: Does it matter? I certainly feel like it matters.

Andre: And so far as like, uh, any, like everything should go into your political analysis of the film.

Andre: Uh, I agree with you that it doesn't really like, it doesn't carry a giant,

Andre: like, uh, like a giant, it doesn't change the way that I view the message of the film.

Andre: I guess if that's what you're asking, uh, anything,

Andre: what it potentially does change is it's

Andre: honestly really hard to understand what it changes because i am not

Andre: super familiar with what the israel-palestine context

Andre: was like in 1975 granted i still know that it was like abhorrent and like not

Andre: something and something that like a lot of humanitarians disagreed with you

Andre: know uh but i feel like it's hard to pinpoint exactly how it changes the screenplay

Andre: without me remembering exactly what was going on at the time you know yeah.

Evan: No i i completely agree i mean i I don't think it directly changed the idea and the screenplay.

Evan: The only thing that I did find, and this is partly a Wikipedia that I looked

Evan: at it elsewhere, apparently there were some other people that were up for roles

Evan: for the film, including one of them being, was it Jane Fonda,

Evan: was suggested instead of the Faye Dunaway.

Evan: And she was told they don't want her to be in it because she had been speaking

Evan: out in favor of Palestinian rights even back in the 1970s.

Evan: And so she was basically told, we're not going to have you. And there are a

Evan: couple other debated things here as to who others.

Evan: So it seems more that it affected the people who played the production as opposed

Evan: to the actual screenwriting.

Evan: It seems like he was maybe able to.

Evan: That didn't bleed into it because there's nothing even mentioned in this movie

Evan: really related to international politics, other than when we find out later

Evan: that the company who owns the network is being purchased by a Saudi Arabian

Evan: company, which I also want to get.

Andre: Yeah, thank you for bringing that back up. I forgot about that.

Andre: Very 1975 villain, very 1975 villain to like,

Andre: have Saudi Arabia or just like the Middle East conglomerates be the villain

Andre: pause that absolutely put some of his Zionist backgrounds into.

Andre: Yeah. And so far as like, his whole thing is like, oh my god,

Andre: the Arab world is getting too much money in controlling the media. That's the argument.

Andre: Like that's the argument is the arab world are

Andre: aggressors who are controlling the media and i feel like

Andre: that's like a really not necessarily a freudian so but we know that like yes

Andre: like don't get it twisted uh there are arab corporations like oil conglomerates

Andre: who have a hand in u.s media but so do israeli zionist corporations as well uh both.

Evan: Of them have a stranglehold on like.

Andre: What can be said about the region uh so i find that very interesting and i completely

Andre: forgot about that aspect of the film.

Evan: I know that's as soon as i as soon as i thought of it there now

Evan: it kind of you then you said it it clicked into my head there

Evan: because they also i mean the big thing in the 70s was like oil crisis there

Evan: was opec you know raising prices and they've mentioned it a few times in the

Evan: movie i think they say you know as part of when they're like discussing the

Evan: like the production for different episodes like oh we're gonna spend you know

Evan: 30 seconds talking about OPEC and this and that and other things.

Evan: And so clearly it was on their mind as to the Middle Eastern,

Evan: as you said, like they're having, they have a controlling interest in US media.

Evan: But what I also found, this was another parallel that I thought of even before

Evan: thinking of the director being a Zionist is it sort of reminds me,

Evan: because they talk about how the reason they had to sell it was because they

Evan: owed so much money to Saudi Arabia, like they're in debt to them.

Evan: It kind of reminds me of like, I could, you could have this movie made today.

Evan: Say it would be china right like we owe money to china yeah and it seemed like

Evan: a very one-to-one kind of ideas like there's someone out there that we owe money

Evan: to we have debt to we have to sell our souls you know or our media to let them

Evan: because we have no choice uh.

Andre: Have you seen bamboozled.

Evan: I don't think i have actually bamboozled.

Andre: Is a spike lee film it's another satire that tackles the television industry

Andre: and they both essentially uh forward the same thesis but from like different perspectives,

Andre: both of them are, which like the television industry sells revolution,

Andre: not as a method to genuinely further revolutionary sentiment,

Andre: but rather this is a way to like increase their profit margins and viewership.

Andre: Uh, and I think that like bamboozled juxtaposes itself really nicely with this film.

Andre: So this is like the white elitist cousin of bamboozled.

Andre: Uh, like both of them literally have like,

Andre: white network executives being like like

Andre: white privileged network executives from ivy backgrounds being like this is

Andre: what the revolution show should be you know both of them make fun of television

Andre: studios for like propping up revolution in ways in which they have no right

Andre: to be propping up because they're so divorced from what it actually yeah.

Evan: That reminds me directly i don't know if this is what you're thinking of i have

Evan: to watch bamboozle i i've heard of it i just it's one of the Spike Lee movies I haven't seen.

Evan: But there's the scene later on, and part of the subplot of Network in the film

Evan: is that there's sort of this woman who I'm blanking on her name.

Evan: Is it Laureen Hobbs? I think she's like a communist. She's part of the Communist Party.

Evan: And they basically bring her in because she has some connection to this,

Evan: you know, Maoist organization.

Evan: And they want to essentially create a show on TV called The Maoist,

Evan: what is it? The Maoist Hour or something like that. The Mouse a Tongue Hour.

Evan: And they want to basically use footage of this terrorist group or this leftist

Evan: group, whatever word you want to use to describe them, from robbing banks and all these things.

Evan: And later on, when they finally bring the leader of this group in,

Evan: there's a scene where they're all sitting around in his hideout with the media

Evan: executives talking about the contract.

Evan: And i just like the satire on that like it's almost it's so thick in that i

Evan: mean do you think that they're they're playing also on the idea that eventually

Evan: these leftist organizations will are basically like we're eventually going to

Evan: just sell our soul because we'll we'll get on tv i don't know it's definitely critiquing.

Andre: The idea of co-option for sure and the idea of working within uh like working

Andre: within a prescribed system or method you know uh the nao seitang group was who's

Andre: literally like a terroristic revolutionary group,

Andre: slowly through their relationship with the

Andre: media becomes docile and realizes that

Andre: like oh but we need to prioritize our profits

Andre: you know so they themselves get subjected to the very uh like values that they're

Andre: fighting against and i definitely think that's intentional uh it's the same

Andre: argument that like uh bamboozled makes in a lot of ways like you start doing

Andre: it because you You think it's revolutionary.

Andre: And then in the end, you're doing something incredibly anti-revolutionary.

Evan: Yeah, that's interesting. It sounds like they're very similar type of movie.

Evan: But yeah, the word co-opting does make sense.

Evan: And also that they just, you know, I mean, I don't think it was necessarily

Evan: the intention of the network of, you know, Faye Dunaway's character who wants

Evan: to build up the network, make them profitable, have popular TV shows.

Evan: Was it intention to neuter in some ways this leftist organization?

Evan: But it just kind of, if you maybe look at it from the top level perspective

Evan: of the network, you know, what is it? C, what's the all letters? UBS? No.

Andre: I'm not sure.

Evan: Whatever it is. CCA. You know, CNN.

Evan: Yeah, CA. Yeah. So, you know, it's, you know, especially when I think of the

Evan: kind of the scene that I knew of before I ever had seen this movie.

Evan: There's a powerful moment where Howard Beale gets called to the,

Evan: you know, the, basically the CEO's office headquarters to be reamed out because

Evan: he's giving away kind of the game.

Evan: You know, he's essentially telling the audience that the, he's given away the, you know, he's,

Evan: giving everyone a peek behind the counter.

Andre: You have messed with... I don't remember what he says, but he starts tweaking.

Andre: He starts bugging. He's just putting his hands up like this and starts going crazy.

Evan: I love also how all the little green lamps that apparently each person individually

Evan: has to have, like the long... He has to have it in that long conference room.

Evan: It's just like a very cool scene.

Evan: And then eventually after he bugs out, he kind of just lowers his voice and

Evan: everything comes back down.

Evan: He's like, dude, you told everyone what's going on and this is just the way of the world.

Evan: Capitalism is good and you know it's good that corporations own everything and

Evan: i think the funniest part about that is that they he says you know capitalists

Evan: you know or corporations,

Evan: actually want to improve the lives of people and it's just kind of like i couldn't

Evan: like i literally laughed out loud when he said that it's not maybe funny but

Evan: it's like bro it's you're you're telling people that the capitalists want to

Evan: improve the lives of people and that's certainly not I think that scene is probably.

Andre: It's certainly the best in the film or the most iconic film.

Andre: I had seen a comedian or a TikTok that was referencing it within the last year or so, you know?

Andre: And then I just watched the film randomly. I just chose it on.

Andre: I just put it on because it said satire and television. And I was like, oh, that's what I study.

Andre: And then that scene came up and I was like, oh, I've seen this before.

Andre: That scene is so, it perfectly encapsulates how this film is anti-capital.

Andre: And how it's just like point blank period anti-capitalist films and they don't

Andre: make movies like that anymore they don't make i don't want to say they don't

Andre: make movies like that anymore because they do as demonstrated by what we talked

Andre: about with the menu of sadness etc,

Andre: they're not though insofar as like the villain in that that scene is so like

Andre: the mise-en-scene of it the lighting everything is pointing to the fact that

Andre: this guy is bad like the capitalist at the end of the table is working in the

Andre: shadows and he looks literally like a demon or the devil like he It does not look,

Andre: it doesn't look natural. It very much looks supernatural.

Andre: And the ethos that it gives off isn't like a good loving ethos.

Andre: It's like demonic and sketchy.

Evan: Yeah, it is pretty, pretty incredible how, yeah, again, I think I said like,

Evan: I had seen that scene before, the clip of that before I'd ever seen this for

Evan: whatever reason. I don't know how it came across.

Evan: But yeah, and then when I saw it, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's the scene.

Evan: And when they do this on the on stage, they have they don't do it quite as well.

Evan: You know, it's kind of as you said, it's pretty iconic the way that it's it's filmed.

Evan: But yeah, I don't any movie that I can think of that we were talking about that's

Evan: anti-capitalist in nature.

Evan: I don't think that those kinds of moments like I think of Glass Onion,

Evan: there's a part where near the end, you know, spoiler for anyone who hasn't seen it.

Evan: I think that they start smashing all of Edward Norton's stuff and symbolizing

Evan: some kind of showing... I'm trying to remember exactly.

Evan: I covered this movement in this podcast. I'm trying to remember.

Evan: But it seems like the way they describe it is not the same way.

Evan: Like oh well i guess there's nothing we can really do about it except like.

Andre: Smash your.

Evan: Stuff like we don't really have any recourse here but they're very much clearly

Evan: just telling you these people are controlling everything and there's nothing.

Andre: You can do about it yeah it's also it's kind of depressing yeah it is it's also

Andre: just like it can be liberating as well you know uh at least for me like i just

Andre: have to recognize that like anything that i any dream it sounds

Andre: very pessimistic but it's not it is very like liberating

Andre: uh what this film made me feel yeah it

Andre: made me recognize that like a lot of the dreams and hopes that i had were instilled

Andre: in me through film and television and they're therefore like unlikely to come

Andre: into fruition but in helping me get over my childhood dreams it's like a weight

Andre: has been lifted off my shoulders uh and also like,

Andre: Films like this make you not have hope in capitalism, not have hope in television,

Andre: not have hope in corporations, and allow you to envision something different,

Andre: or at least be critical of those things, potentially.

Evan: You know, this I think network makes it easier to, as you've said,

Evan: as you just said in several times,

Evan: I think it's easier to get to that conclusion through this that this the satire

Evan: in this movie than any of those ones that came out.

Evan: I mean, not maybe not ones from the 70s, but I think of, you know, modern ones.

Evan: It doesn't it definitely doesn't hit. It hits harder, I think,

Evan: than than any of these newer ones.

Evan: I don't know if it's just simply, you know, I guess one thing we haven't even

Evan: discussed that's unrelated to the plot itself, but just the cast of this movie

Evan: is also quite good. I mentioned Faye Dunaway.

Evan: William Holden is also in it. Peter Finch, Robert Duvall.

Evan: And then you have a bunch of other, you know, smaller parts.

Evan: And I think it was, I think they won three Academy Awards. I don't remember.

Evan: Did one of them win Best Actor?

Andre: I think three.

Evan: Oh, Faye Dunaway won Best Supporting Actress. Yeah. So, I mean,

Evan: it was just a, from a acting perspective, I thought it was just a,

Evan: adds to the cherry on the top of just an excellent, um, Yeah, absolutely.

Andre: Uh, a lot of the actors I'm not familiar with, like films from the seventies, uh, I don't know.

Andre: I've seen like the biggest ones from the seventies, you know,

Andre: but a lot of films from the seventies, like a lot of these actors I haven't

Andre: been familiar with, but they were just absolutely amazing, you know, to watch.

Evan: Yeah. I mean, some of them too, this was like sort of, I want to say the end

Evan: of their careers, but especially like William Holden, who plays the kind of

Evan: the boss or the, I guess the, the head of the news network at the time,

Evan: he was in a lot of movies well before this.

Evan: So he was like a pretty big star, like the forties, fifties, sixties.

Evan: Like this is like his, I don't know, like the twilight of his career.

Evan: So in some ways that's, uh, you know, I would, if you ever, if you see one movie

Evan: with him in it, with William Holden, I would recommend seeing sunset Boulevard.

Evan: It's a fifties, uh, noir. That's got it on my watch list.

Andre: A hacked screenwriter writes a screenplay for a former silent film star who

Andre: faded into Hollywood obscurity. I've heard. Yeah.

Evan: Billy Wilder, I think, directed it, I'm pretty sure. It's an excellent one.

Evan: I went through a little noir phase, I don't know, last year,

Evan: watching a bunch of those 50s ones.

Evan: And that's top tier for anyone listening that hasn't seen that.

Evan: And then the other thing, too, I think the only actor in this that's really

Evan: sort of earlier in the career, I guess you could say, is Robert Duvall. He's not too old.

Evan: He was born in 1930, so he's only 30.

Evan: 45 in this not that young but he's he's probably like the star of of this as far as movies.

Andre: People have seen beyond this one godfather he's been in so many amazing films

Andre: like all the godfather films thank you for smoking thx uh 1138 the road just

Andre: absolutely amazing career uh i.

Evan: Think he was in um bling blade i.

Andre: Don't think he was in billy bob thornton yeah he wasn't no i know sling blade

Andre: I'm from Marshfield, Missouri.

Andre: So my mom, yeah, my mom just fucking loves mocking Billy Bob Thornton,

Andre: you know, just like putting up,

Andre: which I guess when I can think about it now is just ableism,

Andre: but it's a Billy Bob Thornton impression specifically,

Andre: you know, just goes.

Evan: Yeah, that's true. I haven't seen that movie in a long time,

Evan: but I just remembered that he was in that too.

Evan: What was the other... I had another question that I was thinking of that I lost track of.

Evan: Oh, I know what it was. I mean, this is kind of going back to what we were talking

Evan: about earlier with, you know, sort of the Faye Dunaway's character kind of creating

Evan: these, you know, I guess you could almost call them reality television type things.

Evan: For some reason when I was watching it I thought like is this using these this

Evan: Maoist group to have the Mao Zedong hour is it kind of like the show cops in

Evan: the sense of we're showing,

Evan: it's not quite the same because it's arresting people and showing the power.

Andre: From like a psychoanalysis perspective and so far as like what do these representations

Andre: do for the psyche you know they probably have similar like they probably have

Andre: like similar workings, you know,

Andre: they're not, one of them is literally meant to defend the state.

Andre: One of them is meant to, uh, critique the state.

Andre: Uh, granted the,

Andre: the one in network is like uh not actually trying to critique the state but

Andre: at least it postures as if it is you know uh i'm trying to think of the comparisons to cops but.

Evan: Yeah maybe it's not quite as strong as i was as i had noted as i was watching

Evan: but i'm just thinking of a kind of they're using violence in a way to entertain

Evan: you even though the violence as you said one's state violence versus you know,

Evan: actually they're kind of opposites in a way because one is violence towards

Evan: the state as like a revolutionary act even if it's what you know they referring

Evan: to as terrorism whereas cops is simply showing the power of the state to react to yeah you know I.

Andre: Think this film would make a good double feature with what's it called first

Andre: reformed I think this and first would make a good.

Evan: Double feature.

Andre: And so far Whereas they're both movies centered around like leftist politics

Andre: and doomism and like the idea of just ending it all in order to like get something better.

Evan: It's funny, as you were before you said that as a double feature,

Evan: I was actually thinking, I'm trying to think of the name of the movie,

Evan: Nightcrawler with Jake Gyllenhaal. i was almost thinking that would even be also an.

Andre: Interesting i.

Evan: Don't know if it's quite double feature but it has that also the sensationalism

Evan: of news and just the creation of these of using like crime in black neighborhoods

Evan: and as the you know means to entertain people like that i did that one like a long time.

Andre: Isn't it uh so the revolutionary groups that

Andre: they in this film because i watched like two weeks ago i didn't end up re-watching

Andre: it that's my bad uh the one that they're talking about don't they like aren't

Andre: they attacking like privileged positions like privileged groups don't they kidnap

Andre: like a don't they kidnap like a white baby yes.

Evan: They do yeah i think the name of the terrorist group is the yukka um you medical liberation army.

Andre: So yeah the comparison to nightcrawler definitely

Andre: works insofar as like both of the films recognize that nobody

Andre: gives a fuck about like crime in black neighborhoods that's not

Andre: a story like crime in black neighborhoods isn't

Andre: a story that's either a line in uh nightcrawler

Andre: or this but what is a like newsworthy is whenever that crime goes into the like

Andre: the safe places that we previously had whether it be like the suburb or things

Andre: along those lines so both of the films have similar messages in that line wow

Andre: yeah that's interesting.

Evan: That's interesting yeah the um do.

Andre: You know peter Peter Skarsgård or Peter. Yeah. I believe it's Peter Skarsgård.

Andre: Yeah. He's married to Maggie Gyllenhaal.

Andre: And so like, yeah.

Evan: Right.

Andre: And they're in presumed innocent together. Uh.

Evan: Oh yeah yeah like isn't his dad um the other big actor too right he's in like

Evan: dune no actually skarsgård no they're not related he's.

Andre: Sars guard not scars guard.

Evan: Yeah yeah sars guard it sounds like almost i feel like uh that was offensive for for.

Andre: Some like a swedish people being like no that's actually wrong it.

Evan: Could be a common name i don't know Okay. They're not related, but yeah.

Evan: I was looking at some of the quotes that I wrote down, and there's not tons

Evan: of context, but there's a bunch of times in this...

Evan: Another subplot, I mean, I guess I would even really call it a subplot,

Evan: is they're trying to... Part of the reason that they're making changes to the

Evan: network is they're not profitable.

Evan: And by putting this guy, Howard Beale, into this ridiculous show where he's

Evan: basically like a televangelist on TV, where they have a person doing the,

Evan: you know, the fortune telling it's, it's kind of, um,

Evan: they're, they're, they're calling this still like a news show and it's almost kind of embarrassing.

Evan: And just the satire of saying that this is a news show is almost,

Evan: it's just, it's incredible.

Evan: I mean, he like faints at the end of every broadcast. It's just, yeah.

Andre: The fainting at the end of every rebroadcast was like so,

Andre: there's a certain type of like I hate using this analogy because I've only seen

Andre: like one of the films but like German Expressionism insofar as it's like it's

Andre: so like bombastic and out there that like you just have to enjoy it you know yeah.

Evan: The first I remember the first time he did I'm like oh is that part of the act

Evan: is he doing this as part of you know he literally is fainting because it clearly

Evan: is very clear that his character is not mentally stable and they're abusing him,

Evan: Because it's making them money, which is, you know, another thing you could

Evan: say, you know, he's one of the things I actually had a question is this,

Evan: like, do you should you feel bad for Howard Beale's character?

Evan: Do you feel bad that he's being, I guess you could say, exploited at some point?

Evan: He's fired. Did they bring him back?

Evan: He's depressed because he thinks God is talking to him. What would you say about that?

Andre: Granted, I will need to rewatch it in order to have a very nuanced opinion.

Andre: But my un-nuanced opinion is it's not like prior to the film,

Andre: he was doing the American people justice.

Andre: Right? like prior to the film like it's only at the beginning of

Andre: the film once he's truly starts telling the american people how

Andre: it is and what he has been complicit in uh

Andre: he's also uh unfaithful to his wife was like an aspect of the film which like

Andre: was like half of the film in a lot of ways that's like one of the key plot points

Andre: of the film uh so it's kind of hard to feel bad for him as much as it is to

Andre: be entertained by his downfall you know and you're just wondering like for me i I was wondering,

Andre: like, is he being dead ass right now? Like, is he actually breaking down?

Andre: Or is this like, I don't know.

Andre: No, I never really thought it was an act as much as I was wondering,

Andre: like, is he genuinely suffering from something right now?

Andre: Or is he in a not a bad, is he not in a good place? And then just using this.

Andre: That's not eloquent at all.

Evan: Yeah, no, I see what you're saying. But yeah, that is a question I thought too,

Evan: is whether or not he initially is very depressed and angry he's losing his job.

Evan: He says he's going to commit suicide.

Evan: And then he then goes to the point of, okay, I'm going to go on TV and just

Evan: like, you know, just go on and have your apology and just tell it like it is.

Evan: And maybe it's just he sees that that is fun.

Evan: It's kind of, it's a different, it's like a different way that he's behaving.

Evan: And he maybe realizes that, okay, well, if I kind of do that,

Evan: it maybe make me feel better about all the terrible things I actually did on the news by,

Evan: you know, keeping things from the the american people so i don't know maybe

Evan: it's almost like his he feels like it's some kind of retribution or not retribution

Evan: is the wrong word um you know his apology tour yeah.

Andre: Yeah exactly like him dying on the cross for our sins type shit which.

Evan: Actually makes perfect sense given he's literally like a televangelist evangelist

Evan: type of person up there fainting i mean i think that would be probably the most

Evan: yeah the jesus analogies are definitely.

Andre: There there's like room to make a Jesus analogy and argue that Howard Beale is Jesus.

Andre: Uh, I think that that's like certainly not what was at the forefront of everyone's head.

Andre: But the yeah yeah he's literally

Andre: referred to as a prophet you know uh so there's

Andre: certainly like stuff to be picked up

Andre: on i think that uh yeah cindy lumet

Andre: uh because he directed 12 angry men which

Andre: is like just like also one of my favorite films yep uh he's

Andre: always been like a relatively left-leaning director you know

Andre: uh dog day afternoon like the humanization of like trans people which is so

Andre: few and far between so that as well as this film uh i really have to like do

Andre: a deep dive on this filmography and like watch all of them i know serpico is

Andre: good i've heard lots of good things about that serpico.

Evan: Is really good yeah.

Andre: I think.

Evan: The other one that i haven't seen all of a lot of his film but one that i watched

Evan: i think years ago and i was not ready like a lot of movies i watched like with

Evan: my parents who was like oh you have to watch this old movie and then and I wasn't

Evan: in the right age or mind to watch it, was Murder on the Orient Express,

Evan: which apparently is a really good one from, I think it came out in the 70s as

Evan: well. It's an Agatha Christie book.

Andre: Oh yeah, I know that it has to be good. Because it got recreated for a modern...

Evan: Yeah, yeah. Actually, the thing that I was mentioning that we haven't talked about is,

Evan: I guess the final couple minutes of the movie,

Evan: be of the of the at the end is they're all

Evan: of the executives are like they don't know what to do about

Evan: howard beale they don't know what they're going to do because he's given away

Evan: the game he's now all of a sudden his stock his you know his star is falling

Evan: he's now um not popular anymore and they essentially decide to assassinate him

Evan: on air by using the mouth the tongue you know terrorist's,

Evan: sell the ela or whatever it's called ecumenical liberation

Evan: army to do it while they film it live on air

Evan: and i think they say at the end like this was a story of howard beale the first

Evan: known instance of a man who was killed because of lousy ratings it's just just

Evan: the most ridiculous way to end the movie and it's almost i don't know how else

Evan: it almost felt like you didn't they didn't know what to do and it was just it's

Evan: funny to have him be murdered on air i think it's that also plays back Back to the Jesus thing.

Andre: Right?

Evan: He sacrificed.

Andre: He literally died for our sin. Howard, I don't know, that ending,

Andre: I personally loved the ending solely because I love endings that feel abrupt.

Andre: I don't know, there's something about the abruptness of it and the ending it,

Andre: concluding it on the motif of television screens while I'm watching it on a phone screen.

Andre: And that's why I feel like the film, while it's certainly relevant and it feels contemporary,

Andre: contemporary it's just like not insofar as

Andre: like the mechanisms that tv uses are not the

Andre: mechanisms that like that like we use for our phone so

Andre: the addiction is different and i would just love to see like a

Andre: contemporary adaptation of this that accounts for

Andre: the death of tell because television is no longer king they

Andre: are no longer like brainwashing the entire like american population they're

Andre: getting like older americans ages like 25 to 50 you know or like 25 and up people

Andre: who watch tv uh so i'd love to see a contemporary adaptation of this film seems

Andre: like it would be so great if.

Evan: You did it now you'd have to use you know tiktok or.

Andre: Some other system how you i think.

Evan: It would relate to you know something related to streaming you know because

Evan: that's That's kind of what's.

Andre: Destroying things.

Evan: Being scripted TV. I don't know.

Andre: Yeah.

Evan: I don't know. Someone out there could probably pitch this, and I bet it would.

Evan: No, I mean, it would be a really good one to update, I think,

Evan: because as I was saying, it feels relevant, but then you also have the dated

Evan: aspects if it was actually updated.

Evan: And also the thing, I also agree. I love endings that are just kind of shocking.

Evan: I won't ruin it, but I just watched The Mist last night. I don't know if you've seen that before.

Andre: See, that's what I mean by abrupt endings. haven't seen that film

Andre: in a long time but that ending is stuck with me you

Andre: know uh have you seen black oh yeah you know

Andre: the oh yeah i have spoiler for i believe like the first

Andre: episode of black mirror like one of the ones to

Andre: where like he's on the webcam have you seen that one oh yeah i've never seen

Andre: that before my friend described it to me beginning to end and it's one of my

Andre: favorite black mirror episodes of all time and i've never seen it like it's

Andre: one of my favorite stories of all time it's like a story that i'm still able

Andre: to tell because the ending is so abrupt and so shocking,

Andre: uh that it's kind of like twist granted it's.

Evan: Not it's.

Andre: Not like a twist in the network by any means uh but it's still like very enjoyable and like wow you know.

Evan: I think it's also what makes it so good it's kind

Evan: of the cavalier way that the executives are just like well i guess

Evan: we just have to kill them and like the first like oh yeah i guess

Evan: so and then they're just they just they don't talk about it like it's something

Evan: evil really they're just like oh i guess so like who

Evan: are we gonna have do it and then they of course have the you know the

Evan: mouth of tongue hour or whatever they know that this

Evan: group likes to again go

Evan: after you know white rich wealthy people what

Evan: better than to kill the you know howard beal the big

Evan: you know elderly white man who's on tv preaching

Evan: about god knows what yeah it's just it's uh it's

Evan: quite perfect it's always um yeah like i mean we there's there's a lot for anyone

Evan: who hasn't seen it it's well well worth the watch because lots of things we

Evan: didn't really even get to like the whole thing you mentioned like A huge chunk

Evan: of the movie is about infidelity and having an affair with Faye Dunaway and

Evan: how she is sexually addicted to her job,

Evan: which I think is a whole other piece to it that I think is really interesting.

Evan: We didn't even talk about is how she can't even function on a day-to-day basis

Evan: except to do her job, which is to make these ridiculous TV shows for profit.

Evan: And I think it's kind of the way that these networks have almost trained and

Evan: corrupted people to feel that way about their jobs when, you know, fuck these companies.

Andre: I really enjoyed the film. It's like it's a condemnation on the culture industry

Andre: that Hollywood creates.

Andre: They love to like prop up revolution whenever it's convenient for them.

Andre: But as soon as it starts galvanizing any kind of base or leading to anything

Andre: other than like shareholder profit, they're obviously going to have pushback

Andre: towards it. So yeah, I really enjoyed the film.

Evan: Yeah, and that's such a big piece of it, too.

Evan: Like, there's none of the aspects of, you know, the way that literally capitalism

Evan: works is, you know, left out of this, which I think makes it such a good, a good satire.

Evan: But Andre, anything that we didn't

Evan: mention or anything you had left on the film that we we didn't cover?

Andre: No not that I can think of directly off the

Andre: top of my head I just remember watching it

Andre: and immediately like at least like a few days

Andre: after being like oh I should probably talk to Evan about this Evan

Andre: would probably like this film and then I saw that you rated it as well so I'd

Andre: love to like talk about it but yeah I really enjoyed it it's like one of the

Andre: films that definitely needs to be remade but if they did there would certainly

Andre: be pitfalls that would like feed into like right wing talking points and so far as like,

Andre: uh like sjw media that does nothing but like do propaganda uh obviously they

Andre: would replace saudi arabia would try and do some nice little like china fear-mongering

Andre: uh so yeah i think it'd be interesting for it to be remade but in a vacuum as

Andre: the text exists it's still amazing.

Evan: I mean you could honestly unfortunately make this movie remade as kind of a

Evan: right-wing movie as opposed to kind of anti-capitalist which i don't think would

Evan: get made necessarily but i think there's a pretty good lens of looking at it

Evan: that way you know you don't get many well not that you don't get right wing you know themed movies.

Andre: I think if you were to take i think that it would be

Andre: just i think it would be good because the revolutionary

Andre: groups in this film i guess because their left-leaning

Andre: group were automatically me and you are automatically sympathetic

Andre: towards them and sympathetic towards their goal you know

Andre: so it could definitely make sense by just swapping out

Andre: the left-wing group the right-wing group because in many ways

Andre: the movie is about how the television vision or about how news

Andre: media manufactures this villain and i well i don't think that like right wing

Andre: fascists are being manufactured by any point there is certainly a desire to

Andre: have them out at the forefront of visibility in news so i think you could definitely

Andre: like swap them and that could be interesting.

Evan: Yeah. Immediately when you said that, I'm thinking of like Joker and also kind

Evan: of what they took their movie from, The King of Comedy.

Evan: Like those, that would also be another good double feature with this.

Andre: I still need to watch that. I'll watch that after this.

Evan: Oh, that's, it's a good one. I didn't see it until recently.

Evan: And it's, I almost can't believe that's a Scorsese film.

Evan: Like it doesn't, if you didn't tell me that when I watched it,

Evan: I might not have known because it's such a different kind of movie that he's used to making.

Evan: But then after you know you kind of see his hallmarks but yeah i

Evan: mean this this one has been on my like movie list for a long time and no one

Evan: had ever picked it so i'm glad that you uh that i just happened to watch it

Evan: and you happened to watch it and uh make for the perfect uh perfect thing but

Evan: yeah so i mean you want to just remind everyone your uh your podcast and i'll

Evan: of course i can link it in the notes for anyone to uh yeah so it's.

Andre: Uh thank you for consuming uh it's a play on thank you for smoking uh just one

Andre: of my favorite films of all time and uh yeah we're getting it started up right

Andre: now it's going to be a uh film podcast similarly uh that discusses uh leftist

Andre: themes from a black perspective so.

Evan: That sounds sweet no i mean i think more leftist discussions of media is is

Evan: needed so any any of that kind of content uh is good but andre it's always a

Evan: pleasure to have you on and you know you come across another uh you know this

Evan: kind of happy accident of something.

Evan: We'll certainly have to do it again, but everyone listening can check out Andre's podcast.

Evan: Maybe when this podcast is released, yours will be out.

Andre: Yeah, I should.

Evan: Okay, well, this will be... By then, you can go listen to your podcast and subscribe

Evan: to all the podcasts, and we'll catch you next time.