Stars on Sports Intro: It's time for Stars on Sports! A podcast-radio show dedicated to sharing stories about our athletic program at Lansing Community College. LCC athletics has a strong tradition. 25 national championship wins! Over 190 All-Americans! 19 MCCAA All Sports trophies! Stars on Sports will introduce you to individuals that have contributed to our program success and give you the backstory on what it takes to develop it. We'll also dive into and break down the topics and issues facing athletic departments across the nation and right here at LCC. This is Stars on Sports!

Hello and welcome to another episode of Stars on Sports. I'm joined today by our assistant athletic director, Steven Cutter, and our producer, Brendon Skipper. And gentlemen, this is a topic we're going to talk about today that could go a lot of different directions. We've talked about sportsmanship in the past, but usually when I come here each week, I try and think of something that's been really on my mind over the last week. And we hosted an event within the last week, and I was really disappointed with the fan behavior at that event, to be honest with you. We've talked a lot about what sports is supposed to be on this podcast before. Supposed to be fun, supposed to bring people together, supposed to create memories and teach life lessons. And I think, you know, we're seeing too many incidences where that's not happening when we watch the event as a whole. I don't just want to blame spectators, but that's kind of been the focus. And throughout my career, I've had to deal with many different incidents. And I can tell you it's twofold as an athletic administrator. One, it falls on us to handle it, so we need to do a better job of managing it. But two, it also leads to stress and angst and I think sends some people out of the job because it's so bad. And I've seen a lot of different remedies. I've seen a lot of articles on it, and I still think there's still solutions out there to be had. And Coach Cutter, as you and I talk in our office, it really comes down to observing behavior. And, you know, the two things I thought about is, is it a respect issue? Is it a perspective issue? A lot of people want to blame the officials for it, but, you know, I think it's so much more than that. I don't know why we expect perfection from officials, but again, we were hosting an event in the last week at LCC. It wasn't an LCC event, and the other crowd had probably 20 to 30 people there. And it seemed like all 20 would get up after each call and just not be happy with the official on that call. And I think each sport is different. I think we could talk different levels. You know, we've seen our share of fight that youth sport, these AAU travel tournaments that might not have the organized supervision that the educational athletics have. You know, at the high school level, it was an emphasis of our. We didn't tolerate a lot, but we still had incidences. And then at college, it's changed a little bit because we're dealing with adults. And you go to events that have 10 to 20,000 people, and sometimes it gets blurred in there. But some of the language that is used. Just a quick example, a couple years ago, when I was at the high school level, after a first down in a football game, our student section decided, yell, first down. Beep. I'm thinking, what the heck? And that's what they learned at a previous Saturday football game from their student section. So I think there's a lot of variables here, but in the end, I think we can do better. And in the end, it really is just a game. And I think we lose focus of that sometimes. And would people be proud if you showed them how they acted that next day at the event? And I'm not perfect. Again, I've been an athlete coach, an administrator, and a parent, and I can't say I've been proud of myself all the time at how I handle things, especially at different levels. What do you think, Coach?

What you're talking about really is human behavior. And people act differently in groups, and those groups can be stands or teams or something else like that. And it's really like the anonymity of it lowers personal accountability, more or less. And that's what that kind of tribalism with the groups are. And that's what you see in the stands. And of course, you want your fans and your coaches or the people on the sidelines, or even the people on the floor, floor, court, or whatever it might be field, you want them to model, you know, discipline and positive behaviors and stuff like that. And if you've got other people that aren't doing that, whether it's coaches, fans, or anybody else, then it kind of starts lowering that accountability for everybody else. And then you see umpires, referees, you know, they're almost treated as villains. Doesn't matter what the score is or anything else. The umpires and referees, if there was one label for them, they're villains by the people that are, you know, and stuff like that. And sometimes the people that are playing, you know, it's human behavior and sometimes those behavior is just skewed so much.

Yeah, you're right. We've talked about contagious proximity before and being around people. I think it is contagious. As I've talked about before on this podcast, I have always thought it started with the coach. And I emphasize this in my coaches, meaning that sportsmanship starts with you. If you're yelling and screaming, then the players get frustrated and the parents think they're getting gypped. I think this is much more than this because, you know, a couple factors that we can dive into. And you talked about accountability and the contagious of being part of that group that feels like they're, you know, got a villain out there against them. You know, there's always that joke, like in basketball it's five on eight or football it's, you know, 11 on 15 or whatever. Count the officials on the other team. So they do seem to be the villain in this. And I try and protect them. I know what they go through. They're the shortage out there of them. You know, technology has replaced some of those things. I think it's proved that they're actually pretty right most of the times. But Brendon, what do you think from your background of fan behavior? What have you experienced?

I was going to say that it seems oftentimes we forget it's an element of play. And unfortunately, as we get older, we stop thinking of it as play and we start layering on these other things to it. But just as you're saying, once we start removing our individual qualities, these things start to have a gravity and a weight to them.

Yeah, it is a game, but I think we made it so much more than that now that it's almost life. And I think some of the things that lead to it is our social media culture. You know, we live in a world that, you know, quick clicks, especially with outrage or things that they can just send out there. And people will watch the win at all cost mentality, how important that one game is that we forget that, you know, it's okay to face adversity. And it's rarely that you win every game that you participate. 50% of the people usually lose that, that game. So if that win at all cost mentality, if the accountability and the modeling of behavior that we want to see people demonstrate because we're not talking about the majority of the fans that are there and behaving and only can take one at an event that really can make it difficult for everyone in that event. And then again, understanding the boundaries, the parameters, the definitions of what's acceptable and not acceptable. And we've talked a lot about your sport of baseball or, you know, again, we joke about like, do you even need officials anymore? Because after our first down play, the wide receiver's giving the first down mark or after the sack, they're doing, you know, that we get all the calls from the highlight reels now that, that the modeling we want, like, act like you've done it before or be there for. And I don't want to take the fun out of a guy. We talked about having fun at events and the events should be fun, but I think this distracts from it. And again, I think it's, it's a problem at every level, regardless of who's in charge of it or what it's supposed to be. And it's something I think is getting worse and it probably will before it gets better. And again, ways that I think you can help manage it is, you know, there's policies out there at the largest event, there's security. But even, you know, there was a big time basketball game a couple weeks ago where the head coach went and threw a person out of a 13,000 cedarina. With many police and event management there. I think we've tried with education. I see a lot of videos out there, or you know, at some levels you got to do a sportsmanship video if you do get talked to or thrown out of the event. But you know, that accountability piece, and you and I talked about it, it's hard going up into the crowd and asking a person to behave. And you know, some people think by purchasing a ticket they have a right to say what they want or do what they want.

A big piece of it is we've had a societal tolerance shift in what's okay. And public outrage has been somewhat normalized. And we see that every day. And you see the videos, if you happen to scroll or doom scroll or whatever, you're seeing the extreme videos out there of fans in the stands and the fights and you know, the, the people that are going back and forth. And because you're able to see that and your brain's able to see that, it's hard to tell what's real and what's not, you know, and it becomes a normalized thing. And then you go to a sporting event and it's viewed as. It's just okay. And then you have, you know, and I've certainly have been in this same spot, but you're, you're demeaning officials and you expect. It's almost with an expectation of that. As I said earlier, they're a villain. They're supposed to be perfect. And then yet you sit there or I sit there and preach about accountability, improving your responses. You know, E plus R equals O. The stuff that we talk about on here, and it's a big piece of it, is because of what we see on a daily basis. It's become so normalized that we have a hard time separating when we go to our own sporting event and getting away from that. And so I think you can put MHSA College, I mean, they put a lot of work into this sportsmanship and fans in the stands and into Cap 1 training and Cap 2 training and these kind of things to teach people. But it is human behavior at this point and it's become very normalized. So it's going to take a lot more than just us having a podcast or somebody watching you having a team or a coaching staff watch a video.

You're right. I think the national associations have tried to address it even at our level. NJCA is constantly adapting their sportsmanship policy. And again, I wanted to kind of focus on the fan behavior today because that's been the most stressful for an athletic administrator. You know, part of me says that, you know, I've shared before, it starts with how they behave on the floor. And ejections have been up at our level in certain sports and we have a pretty stiff ejection policy of sitting out the next game and such or two games. And I think most levels have different policies on sportsmanship. So you could argue it starts like, you know, we were just talking about an NBA game the other night. There was a fight on the floor. And, you know, where did that? You know, it brings more people into it. You bring the teams clear the bench. You know, thankfully no one came out of the stands. Trickled out. A couple events where people came out of the stands, it is a trickle down. And then even like we've seen pro events where people fight after the games in the parking lot because you're wearing the other teams, you see the fights

in the parking lot. But what gets lost on it all is this is what you see at the youth level. It might be a week later or

a day later, a lot of people.

And so it's just 100% you're continuing to model what you're taking in.

And the example I've had always used is fan is short for fanatic and fanatic is that extreme fan. And that's. I think, what we're dealing with are those extreme people. But I truly believe it's also part of a society problem in the sense that the people in the stands feel they're getting shortchanged, feel they're getting gypped, feel that life isn't fair. Well, there's news for you. Life is not fair. And that's what sports can teach you is how to handle adversity. But it's just like, you know, they feel they have to voice their concern because their son or daughter got their fifth foul or got, you know, got hit hard and didn't get a foul called on them. And so I think we've lost a little perspective on everything going to be okay whether we win or lose. Whether your son fouls out or daughter fouls out or gets 20 points or goes to the free throw line, that get it, that what that game has turned into, it becomes so much more in our lives that we almost live vicariously through it, that we don't always act well because it means so much to us, and that it's unfair if we don't get the break or the call or. I doubt this is where playing time doesn't probably play as much into it, but there's a lot of frustration that lead to it. We talked about the postseason, how things increase during the postseason because there's more on the line for that game, you know, win and go home. So, you know, people are more tense and more stressed or worried about those games. So in previous institutions, we'd have more security at postseason events for crowd behavior and such. So, I mean, I think that plays into a regular season versus postseason. But in the end, I still think it's because we put too much emphasis on the game. And if we're not treated fairly during that game, we're upset. And it's kind of the end of the world feeling. I mean, because it still comes down to human behavior. But I'm trying to figure out why has it gotten to this point and is there anything we can do? And the other difficult thing, too, is, like, at the high school level, you develop relationship with parents. They're there for four years, you get to know them. Whenever I had to deal with an issue, I try and be proactive. Like at an event, I'm constantly watching people, and it's very interesting. But if I start to hear someone yelling, then I start to focus more in on them and watch them a little more, see what's causing it. And then if I've ever had to go up and talk to someone. I try and do it discreetly, and I go up and try and do it in a welcoming and calm manner, not calling them out, not trying to throw them out. There have been instances where it went right to that, but that's usually from an official, and that changes the perspective of things. But you try and warn them and tell them, you know, that, you know, you're getting a little carried away. I used to know an ad, and I don't know if it's true. He'd take a sucker up to someone so they'd put it in their mouth so they couldn't yell, you know, And I mean, there's different examples of what try to work, but it's a very uncomfortable situation. But my point was, at some levels, you know, the people who you're dealing with, so there might be a relationship or trust factor, but in other incidents, you don't know them from you. And it can create some tension right away on how it handles, on whether if it goes good or bad, and it can easily escalate. And I've had a couple incidences of those. So, you know, even dealing with, you know, altercations in the crowd, and it usually leads again between one team and the other and what, you know, started out on the. Out on the court or field and. But I can tell you, I know talking to my colleagues, it's a very difficult thing to handle and a thing they really stress about. And I think that a thing that shortens careers unless they have a lot of help or they're the ones that don't deal with it, which at the largest level, I'm guessing that is the case. Unless, you know, even like storm rushing has been a big topic lately. And then even at the high school level, we had. I don't mind storm rushing, frankly, because we're here for the students. And if usually it happens when you upset somebody or you hit a game winner, that there's a lot of joy there. I like the schools that have put protocol in place where the main thing is, you know, my main job at the end of the game is getting the officials out of there, getting them safe and getting them gone. The next thing is making sure the team behave in the handshake line and get the opponents out of there and get them to their room. So as long as you can figure out a protocol to get the. Those two things to happen, I enjoy the kids going out and celebrating. You know, at the high school level, we'd have to Wait till after awards or something, or we would bring the team over to the kids. But again, I don't want to sit here and feel like, get off my lawn kind of a person, but I'm just hoping we can learn to just make it more enjoyable for everybody. In the end, you're supposed to cheer for your team. You're supposed to be, you know, be positive in the good things that happen to your team. Not necessarily cheer against the opponent or ridicule them for something they did wrong. And I think the other thing, and you alluded to it a little bit with social norm or being in groups is like, we gotta one up them. Like, if the other team start chanting something, we gotta chant something back. Or, you know, if they're chanting something and we're winning, we point to the scoreboard. It's like, you know, it's a competitive thing a little bit. And, you know, I've used this quote many times on this podcast is I love competition. I love to compete. But I always have used, competition brings out the best in product, the worst in people. And I think that's really true here, that, you know, we haven't found that fine line of enjoying the competition for. It is it's like taking that final exam. You do your best and if you win, great, keep getting better. If you lose, figure out what you did wrong and move on. But it's. It's like placing blame or respect or other things on what happens out there. And I don't want dirty play. I like teams that are clean and do it the right way, but you can't control that sometimes, as you talk about Ero, you can't control the behavior they have or what they cheer for or what don't cheer for. But that's another thing with teams being more loud and more engaged on the bench, that when you're losing can get under your skin and get you going and frustrated. And I get it because, you know, we are keeping score. You know, in some sports, at an individual sport, it's only you out there defending yourself. But in the team thing, there's a lot of ways to place blame. Especially I believe the officials get a large part of that. So anything else to add? Either one of you? Any memories that stick out to you?

It's tribalism 101. Humans crave belonging, and we put it in the fan experience. When they will say another player from another team or an official or a coach does something that they don't like, it's viewed because of that tribalism piece. And that Belonging piece and if it's viewed as a personal attack and then that's where you start seeing like the emotion and stuff come from. And if we're talking about changing human behavior, we already know like we human behavior can be changed from our phones and what we see. So I would encourage like, you know, maybe it's you, Greg. Maybe at these athletic events you put together a top 10 video after every event of worst fan behavior and you start putting that out. And I guarantee that at your events things would start changing because people are seeing that and they don't want to be on the top 10 for worse behavior at an event. We've kind of done this, the same thing in our program. We have a dugout cam and we're able to teach through that dugout can not during the event or anything else but after of like, you know, this is this. I mean you don't want to play, you don't want to be a teammate of somebody like this. Right. You know, and boy, I tell you what, that the video and stuff that helps change behavior versus some little script on the wall that says we act, you know, properly or some speech before the game starts, like sportsmanship is a must for this, you know, that kind of stuff, it just falls on deaf ears.

Yeah. And I think again, some of our policies and some of our education has fallen on deaf ears because they get caught up in the moment. To your point, some of them don't even know what they're doing. Like if you did show them a video that next day, I think some would be embarrassed. And I think I know of some school that had done that at the, the high school level. So you know, we just have always been cautious on how to proceed with that kind of stuff. But you're right, maybe again it's an accountability piece. And how do we hold people accountable when we have defined what's right and not right, which I'm not sure we have. Totally have at all levels of sports too. And again, each gym is different. When you have 100 people in a gym, you hear indoor outdoor events are a lot different. I mean it's, it's crazy what you can get away with more in outdoor events because the sound just travels than when you compare it in a box that everything bounces off walls or you can hear. Especially compared to 100 seat stadium, to a 10,000 seat stadium. But in the end you're right, it is human behavior, it is accountability, it is finding a way to address it because we've seen too many people get hurt Afterwards, because there wasn't a line of where to stop again, at my job, it is one of the more stressful things that we deal with, that I'm hoping that we can turn the corner in all facets. I love sports at all levels, and I think it's a problem at all levels that I'm hoping as a whole, as a society, that we can find ways to make it more enjoyable and less frustrating for those people that attend.

That's actually a good point, is just being mindful. A Greek philosopher, Epictetus, and I'm going to paraphrase what he said, but basically, if something has upset you, it's yourself, because you've allowed yourself to become upset. And so I think just thinking of all of this, it's hard to, like, you're saying, get people to recognize when maybe they've kind of stepped out of bounds and that that's okay. They just, let's get on the other side of the foul line.

I agree. You know, like, when I first started in this business, if a kid got an unsportsmanlike penalty, I would call him in the office and just say, hey, that's the line. You can't cross that line anymore. I don't want to throw anybody out of a game. I just want them to learn. Brendon, you're going to fit right into this podcast. Quoting Greek philosophers. That's one of Coach Gutter's favorite. But it's a great point in the sense of, like, there's a Chinese proverb out there. Like, the first one to throw the punch loses because they've lost all. They weren't smart enough to think of words to help solve the problem. And that's so true that, you know, I lost because I lost. When you lose control, it starts with you, that you didn't, you know, handle yourself in a professional or respectful manner. That. But again, I think that's where competition, you know, you're under a public eye. There's something on the line that people see that you're worried about failure or people laughing at you or calling you out or you didn't succeed publicly, that lend to us losing that control, that we all need to learn what that is for each one of us. Well, good stuff. I think this is something we could continue to talk about. I think it's something we need to continue to talk about, as Coach Cutter said, is to find ways to do better at it. So thank you. And again, I wouldn't mind sometimes just sharing some stories we have of the incidents. I've seen my Share of people running out on the floor during an event and trying to get everyone off of it. But now we got to get to our food question. And you know, Brendon, you're relatively new to us, so we've talked a lot of pizza on this podcast, but we never really specifically talked crust. And that's what we're going to talk about today. I think I know what Cutter likes, but I'm a deep dish guy. I love Chicago style. I love stuffed crust pizza. But having said that, over the last couple years, I've learned an appreciation for thin crust. I mean, like New York style. I still lean toward that thick crust. I'm a bread guy. I love bread. I love bakeries. Cutter, what about you?

Definitely a thin crust guy.

Thought so.

And I'm telling you what, if you. If you need to save a few dollars and you want to have that pizza in the freezer, you're going to buy one from the store. I mean, Jack's pizza, you can add some toppings to it. Get a plain peppEROni, add a few toppings to it. It's thin crust. Throw it in the oven. I mean, frozen pizza, Jack's is where it's at. But overall, pizza, thin crust.

I knew you were. Do you like this crust? Would you eat it? Do you ever order it?

Pizza's pizza at the end of the day, right? If you got a choice.

Do you like, like, flavored crust?

Doesn't really matter that much.

I'm not a big flavor.

It's more about the sauce I prefer and toppings.

It is, it is. And that's where thin crust really brings out the sauce and the topping. That's where I've learned to admire it. I just, you know, I like, I like Jack's pizza. We get a lot of those. But I also like the Detroit style deep dish you can throw in the oven. It just seems more filling, too. When you go to New York, you can get a, like a big piece real cheap that just, you know, I like cheese pizzas. You know that when you do the thin crust, just to taste the sauce and the cheese. What about you, Brendon?

I like all pizza.

You'll fit right in.

Yeah, I was gonna say. Yeah. Thin, thick.

What's your go to, though?

Ooh. See, that's the thing is I'm adventurous. I'm always up for something new. I'd say anchovies. That's a weird thing that most people don't like. So I rarely get to have that. So it's always fun when you get

to do most people offer anchovies when you order it? I mean, can you find those on most menus?

Yeah.

I mean, at a pizza place.

Yeah, usually.

Hunter, have you ever had anchovies on your pizza?

No, and I refuse to do that.

Me too. That was actually another question I have for a future podcast is something we would refuse to eat. Anchovies would probably be high on my list. But again, Brendon, I'm calling you out. Thin or thick crust?

I'd say thin crust.

Okay. Okay. But you do like both.

I do like both, yes.

Okay. Well, again, we could talk pizza more than sports on this podcast all the time. But until next time, Go Stars.

Stars on Sports Outro: Stars on Sports is recorded live at the WLNZ studios. Engineering and production assistance are provided by Daedalian Lowry. You can listen to this episode and other episodes of Stars on Sports on demand at LCCconnect.org to find more information about our athletic program, visit LCCstars.com thanks for listening. Go Stars!