Welcome back to the student pilot cast. Thanks for being here as usual today. We're going to get back together with Nick Smith from part time pilot, an online ground school platform that we first talked about over two years ago, back in episode 64. So let's get going on episode 80 of the student pilot cast back to part time. So like I mentioned before, we spoke to Nick back in episode 64 about his ground school, but a lot has changed since then. He's added both features as well as programs to his school, so let's get to the interview pretty quickly. Before we started, though, I want to mention that we recorded this a couple of months ago when this is released. Since then, I've completed my CFI. I finally got to do my check right in mid November, but when we spoke, I was still waiting for a date from a DPE to get to get it scheduled. So we'll talk a bit about that. As usual, please reach out to me if you have any questions or any suggestions or any feedback of any kind. You can find me via email at bill at student pilotcast. com or on X using my, the handle or name there at bill will that's Bravo, India, Lima, Lima, whiskey, India, Lima. I guess I should also mention our very unused Instagram account too, which is student pilotcast. So that's pretty easy to find. I guess I should start putting content out there, I guess, on Instagram, but I just haven't done anything really there yet. You can also use the contact form to get ahold of me. It's on the website. Uh, you can get in touch with me like that. Any way you do it though, just do it. While I do get behind sometimes, it might take me a while to reach back out. I do love hearing from you and I will almost always respond. So I guess we can drop into the conversation that Nick and I had. So here you go.

all right. Welcome back to another episode of the student pilot cast. We're so happy to be reprising our episode that we did with Nick Smith over two years ago. Nick, can you believe it's been that long?

uh, no, that's crazy.

So Nick Smith runs an operation called part time pilot and, uh, we actually did, uh, here I am in the middle of our discussion and I forgot to look up what episode number that was.

I was trying to look for it as well, just before we started.

All right,

Oh, 64

and we

Yeah.

video episode on there, but I've changed the way we're doing that a little bit. So yeah, so it's episode 64 of the student pilot cast was when we talked about part time pilot for the first time. So Nick, it's been over two years. new? What's new with part time pilot? Gives

Yeah. Thanks for having me on again. a lot is new. Um, in two years. I can't like, so we have, the big thing is we have an IFR on my ground school now. Um, that was one of the things that I think probably. I think I talked to you about starting to create it at the time we talked last. Um, so that's up and going now. Um, we, uh, we have a mobile app now. Um, so that's been really fun to build and we have a great, um, app builder who's doing that for us and. It's really cool. It's got, you know, a six B tool, like a practice test generator where you can pick, uh, you know, the categories you want to do practice tests and that's all free. But then students of our ground school that log into that get extra features. Uh, so they'll be able to. Go through the ground school lessons, listen to our audio lessons, watch the videos, take the quizzes, and then they'll also be able to download a lot of our bonuses. So that's really cool. We're still working on, uh, updates right now. Like, uh, it doesn't sync progress with our online. So that's a big update we're working on. So it's a work in progress, but it's been really fun to get into the, the app world. Um, Yeah.

to some of that training on the go, I guess a little bit easier for them to access. Is that kind of what idea is.

So I held back from a lot of people ask if we had an app and like they wanted an app and our, our course is already 100 percent mobile friendly. You just, you know, you just need the internet. So that's why I held back. I was like, I'm not really sure what the app, uh, would do. But then I started speaking to an app developer and they were saying, well, there is, there is possibility that we could, you know, um, have it all stored, you know, Right when they download the app, it kind of stores all the information and then eventually, and again, this is another feature we're working towards, but students could use it offline as well. And then, so when they get back online, any progress that they had made offline would kind of re sync, uh, with their course online and everything. So that's kind of what we're working towards, and that to me is the big bonus of having an app, right, is having that ability. Let's say you're on an airplane or whatever, and the Wi Fi. Doesn't work, right? Yeah. Well, like a commercial plane and, uh, and, uh, so you could do, you know, you could pull that up and get some studying in. So yeah, basically, like you said, on the go, and then the offline thing is big because believe it or not, we have a lot of students that like, I'm, I'm surprised at how many students we have that they're, they're not always in an area, you know, I live in a city, but they're not always in an area with internet connection. Um, so yeah,

Interesting.

yeah.

think I also noticed that you guys added a checkride prep. I don't think you have that two years ago.

Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to remember, but yeah, we have a check write prep course. We've added a lot to that. I've kind of built, you know, it's really about kind of exactly what to expect. So it's like in the same. Step by step. Like, you know, you meet with your DP, you're going to give them their money because they want their money first. Right. And then they check your log book and your IACRA and then you go over the plane stuff. So it's like all that step by step to really just get you feeling confident and comfortable about what you're going to see. And then we've, since then we've built, um, we've put in like throughout, we review everything in that same sequence. So, but then we throw in like. In like green text that kind of stands out in the course, these like situational based questions, oral questions that you might get. And then the answer that we think you should give. Um, so we have over like 300 of those thrown and those are, those are kind of the money things that people really, really want for a check write prep is to know what they're going to be asked on the oral and kind of how to, how to figure out what they might be asked, you know, uh, based off their scenario or whatever. So, yeah. Yeah,

So that's kind of the stuff that's new, um, for those listeners who haven't had a chance to go listen to that other episode. How about Nick, you give us a synopsis on what's new? What part time pilot is and you know where you're headed with it

yeah, um, absolutely. So part time pilot started after I went through my private pilot training. And so I have a background in aerospace engineering, and then I was a flight test engineer. So I was all around airplanes. And so the knowledge was there and I wanted to get my pilot's license. And when I was going, I was actually kind of a natural, and I'm not trying to brag, but like, I got through my flight license pretty quickly. Relatively quickly at the beginning. Um, and then I decided to move from Seattle to San Diego and then take a couple months off and then I was paying paycheck to paycheck and then I went to kind of a, I went from a, I didn't really understand part 61, part one 41. So I switched to part one 41 school, then had all these extra requirements I didn't understand. I essentially made a bunch of mistakes from my lack of understanding of how the flight training world. worked. Um, and it got really, really frustrating. And I spent, you know, like Six, seven, 8, 000 more dollars than I really should have if I just had planned ahead and known these things. So I started like an Instagram based off trying to educate people about the way the flight training works. And then, um, and then started looking into. More what it would take to be able to have an online ground school. And so I, I became a ground instructor. Um, first I do was just basic for, you know, private sport and recreational. And then now, uh, you know, about a year ago, I got my IFR rating for ground instructor, so for our IFR course, and then started just building the, uh, the ground school. So that's kind of how it started, you know, out of that, uh, wanting to educate people and kind of save some people some money. Cause I thought if it's that hard for someone who has the, you know, the, the. Just who's always around planes and has the, the academic knowledge behind it and all that stuff. Then no wonder so many people are, are failing and finding it too hard. So that's kind of where it started. And that's kind of why the name part time pilot came about because I thought, you know, look, there's so many people out here who they want to make the dream, either a career change, or they just want to, Achieve the dream of flying, but they don't have just a ton of money where they can just like stop working or like stop taking care of the kids and just like focus on that. So we all kind of start off as this part time pilot where we're, you know, we have a full time, uh, schedule. And then on the side, we're trying to make this career switch or whatever. And so, um, it was sort of, I wanted to tailor everything to that person that is trying to do this on a limited. A limited schedule, you know, a busy schedule, a limited amount of time. So that's why we have, like I was talking about the mobile app, right? That's exactly in line with kind of our goals to just, and then we have audio lessons, so you can listen to ground school stuff on the go, everything we kind of add is kind of with that in mind to make it easier, uh, and, uh, more efficient for students to, to learn the content.

interesting and I just learned something. I didn't know, um, to be a ground instructor instructor for an instrument rating. I guess there's additional training.

Yeah, so there's just like kind of a flight instructor. There's different ground instructor ratings. So it's basic instrument and advanced. Um, advanced is like, now when I, when I went in for my instrument, the person was like, why didn't you just do the advanced? And then you could, cause advance is like, you can teach everything. And like, you know, once you've learned a lot of it, once you've learned kind of like private and IFR, like,

or the fundamentals of instruction are all the same. It's really

Yeah,

technical content.

right. Exactly. So, um, but I just, I did it piecemeal. So I did the basic one, which allows you to teach private sport and recreation. And then I did IFR and then, you know, eventually I'll, I'll probably do advanced as well. And, um,

you do commercial CFI multi stuff like that.

yeah. And even, uh, helicopter as well.

okay.

Yeah. So it's kind of like, yeah, it's kind of everything. Yeah.

Cool.

At least that's how I understand it.

All

I haven't looked too much into the advanced one, but yeah.

Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask the obvious question.

Okay.

time you weren't really ready to do that. Didn't really think that's the direction you were going to go. But have you reconsidered maybe becoming a CFI?

Uh, no, I haven't. Yeah. Still just, um,

Focus on the ground instruction.

yeah, yeah. I, yeah, I like teaching the ground knowledge. Um, and, uh, you know, just a, a time thing, you know, I can reach more people teaching the ground content than I can, you know, flying with one person. And then for me, it's just, this seems a little stressful to fly with.

to kill you every day.

Yeah, exactly. So I don't know. But, uh, I don't knock anyone that does. I mean, we need flight instructors. So thank you for, for doing that. But, uh, I don't think that's for me. Yeah.

I hear you. All right. Well, um, that, and we've talked about it a little bit, that you added instrument, um, plans to add more. The reason I ask is it seems like there would be an opportunity. your students who are maybe going on to advanced ratings, even beyond instrument, uh, to kind of grow with them or allow them to kind of grow with you. So are you thinking about adding some of the other, um, the other, not the, the other certificates, um, and helping your students kind of continue on? Is that something you're planning on?

Yeah, absolutely. Um, whether it's we go the commercial route before we, or maybe we do rotorcraft, like you talked about, I kind of go with the commercial route. The flow of what the people are asking for. And that's why I went IFR. So many people were asking for IFR. I haven't got that many people asking for commercial, but I know it'll come now that we have IFR, but I guess it makes sense, right? The, the further you get kind of the less people that are actually making, making it that far. So eventually, right. I want to have it all. Um, I want to have rotorcraft and, and commercial.

It's just a matter of, uh, prioritizing which ones come first, right? Mm hmm.

Right. Exactly. So, um, but yeah, that's definitely in the works right now. Um, you know, after doing the check write prep and the IFR and the release and a couple of books, I was like, I wanted to pump the brakes and just like focus on just like polishing everything up and just making, um, you know, there's, I always have ideas of like how to make the course better and I'm always getting feedback. So I'm just taking last few months and a few more months to just kind of Polish it all up right now. We're redoing our. Audio lessons in the private pilot course, because when we recorded them since then, our, our lessons have changed just a little bit, you know, I've gotten better at explaining things. So I've changed that in the written lesson, but I haven't had the time to update the audio. So I'm going back to update the audio, make new videos. You know, now, uh, we have some videos with animation. So trying to get more animation, just things like that. This is just polishes it up, makes it even better. So that's kind of what we're focusing on now. before we just throw more products at people.

Right, right. No, that's

Yeah.

Yeah, I've noticed as I've been, uh, teaching and practicing and things like that, that you polish up your presentation for certain subjects based on, oh, I've got a better story to tell here, or I've got a

Mm-hmm

to use here that gets through to more students, things like that. That's kind of what you're running into, right?

Oh, 100%. Like one of the ones that I've changed many, many times. And you'll have to tell me a little bit about, about what you're doing now, uh, with the teaching, but like the, um, the temperature pressure effects on the altimeter. Right. And

yes.

the, reasons why that happens and, the confusion around that, just as confusing as it is to learn, it's even more confusing to explain. Uh, so, but I finally like have found that, I have a good way of explaining it now, but it's taken multiple iterations. You know what I mean? Like, and like you said, analogies. Um, to do that. So, so

don't even

yeah,

remember that being in the private, but I got my private so long ago. I probably have just forgotten, but I remember kind of having to relearn that when I was doing my instrument, or maybe it was my

right.

don't know. I don't ever

And the one then also, maybe you just learned hide a low lookout below

Maybe I

and that's

the test, but I didn't learn how to explain it.

Well, and like, that's kind of a dilemma I have too. It's like, okay, for these private students, do I want to just have them learn this for now? Or, you know, I know there's going to be those students that are like, well, why does this happen? And it's like, do we want to go into the weeds? Cause it is, it is very weedy that subject. So like, is, so I always kind of play with that dilemma, um, you know, cause there's so much to learn. Like, do we want to, obviously it's good to, to learn the more, It's good to learn more, but you know, you want to look out for their time.

just touched Nick on my probably my biggest challenge in teaching that I've discovered about myself. It wasn't that big of a shock. I'm a bit of a nerd who likes to dive into a subject because I want to know everything about it. And so 1 of the big challenges that I face is not going too deep with us with somebody who. Um, is just learning, you know, and so it's really kind of, uh, an art be able to get across the right amount of information that is accurate, correct, but doesn't confuse and doesn't overwhelm student before they're ready for that.

Yep.

totally know what you're saying. I, I could do a, I could do a ground on fundamentals of flight would take two and a half hours, you know, but nobody who's learning first about the fundamentals of, of flight is going to be able to sit there and take in information for two and a half hours. And it's not something they don't need all of that detail to get their, um, Get their certificate or pass the written but if I'm with somebody who's also interested in going deep, that could easily happen, and so that what you're doing, trying to find that balance is not only difficult, but really important for the learner and it, what you're doing is hard too, because when you teach one on one or even one to few, you can sort of gauge. Where people want to go, you have to do it where, it works well for a large number of people. And so I'm wondering how you, how you navigate that, because that's totally different than how I would do it, say, in a one to one scenario.

Yeah.

is it just a lot of feedback from, by the way, do you call them your customers, your users, your students? What, what do you, what do you call your users? Are they students?

Students. Yeah. Yeah.

do you have a really like close feedback loop with your students or how do you sort of navigate that? be interesting to

That's a, that's an amazing question and only one who kind of understands this space and teaching it too. So, uh, I've never been asked this before, but it's such a good question and it's. It's not easy. Um, but I, I'm trying to think of the best way. So one, two, you asked if, if there's a close feedback loop and yes, absolutely. I told you kind of before that I try and go with the way of the people. Um, I find that, uh, Having that community, uh, being,

soon then? I'm just kidding.

yeah. Right. so having that, um, that community feel, and kind of, and that's one other thing we try to do. We try and bridge the gap from like online to like an in person instruction. So like, what is it that's great about, yeah. What is it that's great about the in person instruction? Well, it's being able to reach out when you have a question and getting that question back quickly and kind of understanding where you're at. Along kind of like a mentor thing. And that's hard to do with a lot of people, but that's, that's one of my, I think that if we can do that online, we will stand out between everybody else. If, and if we have that one feature where we feel connected to the student, they don't feel like, Oh, here's a bunch of PDFs and videos. See you later. Right. Good luck. Um, so having that close feedback loop. Is great. And always, uh, like just the other day I had a student that was really, really thankful for, they were like, Hey, like, you know, on this video, you talked about you. You know, if you do a certain amount of hours per day, you can get through ground school in, in a month. And I was wondering like, what lessons would you recommend I do each day? And I had already had like this calendar thing. And so it gave me this idea where like, I'll just put each lesson on there so that they can just check it off. And so I did that real quick and I sent it to her. She's like, wow, this is so cool. Like you actually listened to me. Yeah. Like you guys have the best ideas.

hmm.

Cause you are actually going through it. So that close feedback loop, and then just having different options, I think would be the other way and just trying, and this is what's hard is trying to. Communicate that. So like, for example, in our lessons, we have the audio lesson at the top. We have written, you know, visual aids and like diagrams throughout. And then we'll have a video at the bottom and then a quiz, but also at the bottom we have a test prep summary. And the reason I added that test prep summary is like, sometimes there's some students that are just, you know, no matter how much I try and tell them, it's good to understand the fundamentals of the concepts and what's behind them and not just rote memorization. No matter how much I say that some students are just going to do that because they're running out of time or whatever. So I have that option in there for them. Um, but the difficulty of having all those different options, right? Whether you want to listen to it, watch the video. Some students and I, I was kind of like this, that if something's like given to me, I'm like, I have to do it all. And so like,

Yeah.

yeah, exactly. So trying to say like, Hey, just do what works for you. The quiz at the end is going to tell you what you need to know pretty much. Right. So take the quiz and if you, you know, pick which way you want to learn the best and then take the quiz. And if you're lacking there, um, you know, then look into the, you know, then watch the video maybe, or, uh, then we, one cool thing that we added since the last time I talked to you about, cause AI. Came about probably since the last time I talked to you. Right now we have AI. So I, um, and this was a lot harder to do right when it came out, but I wanted to be at the forefront of this. And so I built like all these things called like vectors and fed it into chat GPT. And so basically it was like a prompt and a response. And I took. And I made from every single lesson prompts and response that students might have and fed that to chat GPT to like train it on our content. And then, um, so it took so long and then now open AI, I don't know if you're familiar, but now you can just upload PDFs. So it's like, wait,

yeah,

so, but on every single lesson, we have an AI that we've uploaded all our PDFs and all the FAA PDFs too. And so. It has that context and they can get a quick question. It's not meant to replace us, so they can still reach out to us. But I guess long story short, just having all those options and just trying to communicate to them, like use what works best for you. And, but there are all these options for you if you need it. So,

I can see, I can see that being a pretty big challenge

yeah,

strike that balance. So, yeah, I appreciate that.

yeah,

Do you still have your perfect pass rate?

I don't know.

well, that's

Uh, we've had,

challenge of growth. Yeah,

that I know of who, um, didn't pass the exam. And then, um, both of them were like, no, this is on me. I don't want to refund. But I was like, Hey, our policy is to refund if you don't pass. So I'm happy to refund you. And then they passed the second time. But, um, but yeah, we didn't, uh, It didn't give, I knew it was going to come, but yeah,

well, good. That just means you're growing. You've got a lot more students because sometimes people have bad days or they're just not ready. So it happens to everyone.

yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I was gonna say, so, uh, give me, why don't you give me a little update since the last, last time we talked? I, I know that like, uh, did you start IFR training or is that something?

Yeah. Um, I did that just a few months after we. actually. Um, so I did my, I started my instrument rating. Well, first, first I had to, you know, get current again and relearn how to fly an actual airplane. Um, start refreshing my book knowledge, things like that. Because I'd taken quite a while off. Um, but then, and this is, you know, this is pretty well documented in the podcast, but, um, then back in, uh, January or February of 2023, I started my instrument rating, did that, um, got my commercial. Then I took a few months off of training and, um, I. I forgot to mention back in that same time period when I started my IFR training, I left my long time corporate, you know, technology job started doing some other things and started the training at the same time and doing all these things. But then I got my commercial and then I did my CFI. Um, but I, I kind of finished training for my CFI about four months ago, I've literally

wow.

this whole time to get a check ride and

Oh, no way.

scheduled.

Oh my God. Yeah. That's like, I'm hearing that everywhere.

It's pretty nuts. It's pretty nuts. It's a little frustrating, but I try not to let it bother me. I'm just excited to, so all of the, um, training I've been doing has all been sort of in a mock as my preparation or training. So. I've led a couple of discussions with private pilots, um, under the supervision of my CFI instructor. You know, since

Yeah.

haven't passed my check right yet. I'm not a CFI. Um, so I've done some of that. I've done some where we get together with other CFI candidates and we teach each other a subject. So we can kind of go through the lesson plans, kind of learn how to teach it. Then I've also been doing, um, I've also been doing the same thing with my, um, I have two, uh, three adult sons, but two of them are, um, interested in aviation in one way or another. I have one son who's, um, already a private pilot and he's planning on getting a bunch of his other ratings. And so I've been, um, teaching him, doing grounds with him on Maneuvers and things like that, and then

Yeah. Yeah.

in the airplane and flying with him. So I always fly right seat now, just to make sure that I stay in you know,

Yeah. Yeah.

so I've been as a private pilot, unfortunately, um, when he's, The sole manipulator of the controls. I don't really get to log the time because I'm not a CFI yet. So that's a

Yeah.

but he gets to log the time. So that's cool for him. but I also have another son who works in aviation, but he's not a pilot. Um, he's going to become a mechanic, an airplane mechanic. So he's starting school soon and he's got a job with with an aviation company, where he does a lot of their groundwork. And, uh, So I've done the same thing with him where I'll teach him, you know, Um, ground lessons because he does want to get his private pilot eventually and and then we'll go out and fly. And in that case, I get to log it because he can't. So,

Right. Nice. So man, are you guys, it sounds like you guys need to start like a aviation business. You guys got all of it right there. Yeah.

Um, but. But yeah, it's, it's kind of dragging out. I'm, to begin teaching because I've always thought I would love teaching. I mean, I love teaching in general and I've taught many other topics and different, you know, aspects of my career and my life. Um, I've done seminars, I've done, you know, one to many, I've done one on one teaching and I really, I really enjoy teaching. I think I'm kind of good at it. so I'm really excited to take two of my passions, Flying and merge them together, and I really enjoy it when I've been doing it with my with my sons and when I've been doing it with the other students of the school, and I'm really excited to get going on this, and I'm just held up by this technicality that I can't I can't get, you know, my checkride scheduled. So I'm hoping sometime in November. Cross your fingers. Um, I'm working with 2 or 3 different. DPS to get on their schedule. I still can't get on the schedule. Literally

what area

months. So

where, what area are you at again?

in the Phoenix Valley.

Okay. Have you looked like to just,

done here. So lots of yeah.

have you looked at like flying to somewhere with a DP or,

of these still sort of in the Arizona area would be. Um,

Oh, okay.

that, but, but yeah,

Man, that's crazy.

out, I'm going to have to start broadening and go to Dallas or San Diego or you know, go somewhere else where I can find a DPE because it's really getting kind of ridiculous. I'm

Yeah. That's wild. I wonder,

I'm just excited. You know, I'm excited to get started. And. start gaining more and more experience from the teaching side. And I'm just really looking forward to doing it. I think I'm going to love it.

Yeah, that's awesome. Good for you. Uh, now do you think that the reason for the DP shortage is a Shortage of DPS or are there more students that are needing

Yeah, this is good.

DPS?

a lot and I would not call myself an expert in this, but in the discussions that I've had and been privy to, I don't think there's a shortage of DPEs. I think it's, it has to do with a lot of things. One, not all DPEs. are either eligible or willing to do CFI initial. a very long check ride. Um, it's,

Yeah, that's true.

does take special qualifications and certain amounts of experience to even be qualified to do it. And so you can take all of the DPEs and I don't know what the figure on this, but it's possible that only half of them or even less than that, um, do CFI initial. So

Yeah

part of it is it got, I mean, it's always been hard throughout my recent training to schedule a DPE, uh, but it's never been this hard. And part of that, I think is it's just harder to find who's doing that. And then the people, the DPEs who are doing that are generally not full time DPEs. In fact, a lot of DPEs aren't full time DPEs. They, they hold other jobs in aviation usually. And whether that's they're running a big flight school or, um, they're. Airline pilots or, you know, any number of, of things that they're doing, they don't do check rides full time. And so that hurts too. They may only have two slots a month where they'll do a CFI initial, even the ones who do do it. Um, and then 3rd, I think that, um, we've sort of got a bubble in the pipeline of, of students, um, or pilots, uh, because most of the airlines have, have, uh, Either completely stopped or slowed hiring. So maybe there's people that weren't planning on a CFI and now they're kind of like, well, I

Yeah.

job in the airline. So maybe I'll become a CFI. Um, there, you know, any number of things. And so I think there's. additional training going on because they're not moving on to jobs in aviation because, you know, we're just in one of those little bubbles where it's backing up a little bit.

Yeah.

I imagined that and a whole host of other things, like I said, in my region, because of the weather and because of, I don't know, for all of the various reasons, Arizona is just a training Mecca. And

Yeah.

have a lot of DPEs around here. But we also have a large, large number of students or for various ratings and certificates. So I don't think there's really a shortage. If you look on the the roles, so to speak, there's a lot of DPEs. But some, some, some of them just don't work that much as a DP. And then I think some of them probably don't get that much work because while most are probably incredible. I haven't met most. I think there's also DPS that people avoid like the plague because they're. They're just not very good. so, I, I think that's an exception. Um, but I don't know, for whatever reason, it's just been very difficult to get this one scheduled more difficult than the other ratings and certificates that I did.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that all makes sense to me Especially your yeah, like you said to see if I yeah That makes sense. But I've even heard it hard for private too lately. So yeah.

a while, but, um, but it doesn't, it's not 4 months.

Yeah. Yeah. That's,

I mean,

that's true. Yeah.

but anyway, it is what it is. And, uh, we just deal with it and we go through the process and I'm excited to start teaching more and more. So

Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Very cool. Yeah. Thanks for the update. I appreciate that. I think you'd be a good teacher. I haven't heard you teach, but I think that the way you articulate things at least is good. Yeah.

Yeah. And I

Yeah.

I mean, part of the reason I love teaching in general is because it always makes me more of an expert in the topic because you always get questions that you wouldn't have thought of yourself. You. have to be prepared for questions. Um, you have to, you know, you alluded to before, something kind of, and explaining something are two different skills, two different things that you have to do. And being able to explain something To two different types of people. I mean, many different types of people, but two major categories of people, people who understand it at all. then people who kind of understand it, but need, you know, that, that second depth of knowledge, or they need somebody to help them get to where, Oh, they really get it. Not just

Yeah. Yeah.

know, beyond that rote knowledge really correlating. The information, amazing when that kind of happens for yourself, but I find it even more amazing when you facilitate that in somebody else. It's, it's very exciting and invigorating when you see the synapses created in somebody's mind. I mean, not literally see them, but you see the correlation happen and they go, Oh, Oh, And it's

Yeah.

and being able to do that requires a level of knowledge of the topic that you might not get unless you teach it. And one of the reasons I'm a sucker for knowledge. And when I don't get When I kind of understand something, but I don't know all the details about it, it bugs me. And so

Yeah.

part of the exciting thing and part of the reason that, I love teaching is because whatever the subject matter is. I mean, I used to do it back in college, like with physics courses and stuff like that. I would teach other, I would teach other fellow students about a really difficult upcoming because I knew that if I taught it, nail it. And so it's, it's just fun. It's fun to be able to do that. And it's going to make me way more knowledgeable and comfortable with my own knowledge.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It'll make you a better pilot. But yeah, I always tell students to like the best way to learn and study is to learn it as if you were having to explain it to somebody else because then you really had, and I, I use the term, have you heard of like first principles thinking? Yeah. So like I, I always try and break down the concepts when I'm creating a lesson and I'm like, okay, I, you know, I want them to actually understand this concept. So like, what are the first principle kind of fundamental facts that You know, about this concept that they absolutely need to have and know, um, that'll set the foundation for being able to, to understand sort of any sort of rote memorization question. If even if they didn't remember it, right. Because it's just because they understand they can still work it out logically because they understand those core principles or whatever. So, um, but yeah, and you reminded me of the, have you seen that curve of like, um, it's like. It's like on the Y axis, it's like confidence in your knowledge. And then on the X axis, it's like how much experience learning it you have. And so it's like, starts as a bachelor's and like, after your bachelor's, your confidence is really high. And then if you get like a master's level, like the more you learn about something, the,

down.

yeah, the more you like realize you don't know anything.

Yep.

Yeah.

I've had many personal experiences about that, um, throughout my life on all kinds of topics and, you know, in my professional life and aviation, all of it. And, um, I, yeah, that is very, very real for me. And I have to my fellow CFI candidates as well as my instructors Um, as I've been going through this process about this very thing, because I'll just sometimes shake my head and go here. I am a CFI candidate. I've been flying for 15 years off off and on, but I've been flying for 15 years. And did I not realize what I just learned right here?

Yeah.

it's like, this seems so basic. I can't think of the example right now, but it's happened multiple times where I'll just shake my head and go. Okay. I, we know nothing like it takes, it takes a lot of experience and a long time to start building that confidence back up because the more you learn about a topic, the more you realize how much, how little, you know,

Yeah. And it, it humbles you.

the scheme of things

Yeah. It humbles you. Like when I first started like teaching, making videos and stuff, like I was like, I can't, I have to make sure that people, you know, that when people watch this, they think that I know absolutely everything and I'm perfect in this video. And then now I'm to the point where like, Oh yeah, I could totally be wrong. Like, please tell me like, let's hear like,

I

I've, I've been wrong many times.

think that probably helps you connect with the students better, uh, because it's more, it, it, it's, uh, more familiar to their experiences. Even, even things outside of aviation, things that they're experts at, they will get that, you know? And so I think, I think it makes you, think it makes you more human able to connect better and thus. trustworthy and probably helps you teach more effectively. one of the things that I've been, I've been, um, blessed with is most of the time to have instructors when I ask a question or I bring up a topic or you know how it is when aviators are sitting around, it'll often go to, Hey, what if, or what about, I've been blessed with instructors that would always go, I don't know. Let's figure it

Yeah.

And,

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

that, that is way more, I guess that, that builds a lot more trust than trying to make something up or, Oh, that's a dumb question. Or, you know, some other way of replying to hide your ignorance of the topic. Does that make sense?

Oh, 100%. And like, yeah, you make an amazing point. Like if they think when they look at the syllabus of what all they have to learn and they just get kind of overwhelmed and then, and then I'm over here acting like,

you

Oh Yeah. It's

Yeah. it's.

It's really easy. Like, what do you, where, where you don't know? And they're going to be like, so just like I'm blanking on the word, but, uh, discouraged. Yes. Thank you. They're gonna be so discouraged. And, but then, like you said, if I come at them and I'm like, Oh, um, that's a great question. I don't know, but. But I know how to figure it out. So let's go figure it out. And,

know

um,

or I know. Yeah,

right.

And, and the other thing is. One of the things I've noticed further along I've gotten in my training again, you'll take this. amazing instructor who you kind of feel like has so much experience that they know everything and they'll, readily admit, Oh yeah, I forgot what all the words in that, um, you know, that, uh, memory aid are, you know, it's one of the ones from private or something.

Yeah. Yeah.

Oh yeah, was that, what was the a standing for in that mnemonic, you know, and, and,

Yeah. Like a tomato flames or something like that. Yeah.

and I'll go, Oh, thank goodness, because I forget all of these all the time, you know,

Yeah. Yeah.

kind of what it means and where to find it and, and being able to refresh your memory. And I find that so much more approachable and less discouraging. And I think most. Aspiring aviators or aspiring anything. Uh, that's probably more approachable, uh, less discouraging and it helps you connect better and teach better. So yeah, that's good. that's funny that you bring that up because that's a curve that goes down as you know, more because that's something I've run into so much in my own experience, so

Yeah. And then like doing it on online too, is a bit of a,

true.

they say, like, if you want to have the best, like, uh, like inner work, just try to become an online entrepreneur because you get all these like faceless people commenting on your stuff and saying whatever, like YouTube is the worst. And like, uh, some of my first YouTube videos were, you know, pretty low, low, uh, production quality and things like that. And I made mistakes and just, just hearing it from the, uh, You know, anonymous crowd is, yeah, is, uh, you, you get a thick skin and you realize that, you know, it's, it's better to not act like, you know, everything and just, just, just, you know, be open.

it's

Yeah, exactly.

I totally agree. It's one of the things I hear about from my listeners on the podcast all the time that they appreciate me? like airing my mistakes

Yeah.

It's real easy and tempting To go. Wow, what a bonehead what a bonehead move that was Maybe I don't put that out there in the ether for everybody to laugh at me but it really is better for people. Again, I keep saying this word connect, but I think that as you alluded to earlier, um, is really, really important, especially when you're doing something online, because there's not a natural community there. It really does help build that trust and community because again, they go, Oh, I make tons of mistakes. I'm not alone. Bill made tons of mistakes and I did, and I still do. I still make tons of mistakes.

Yeah.

so, I, I just think it's, it's more fun. It's more human. It's more real. It helps you connect. And I think it helps people learn and Most importantly, I think it helps people not get discouraged and quit there are times there have been times in the last two years where I wanted to just go. You know what? There's other things I could do. I love flying. This is too

It can be very discouraging.

And I am I really ever going to get good at this? Or am I really ever going to get this? Or am I ever really going to remember this? Or whatever it may be, can be really discouraging. And. The thing I like to people know is that that is the experience for basically everyone. And if we all make sure that everyone knows that, it's much, it's much easier to go, well, it happened to this person I really looked up to, this instructor I had who I really admire. It happened to them. I can get through this too.

Yep. Yeah. One of my best performing YouTube videos is where I just talk about my story about how I paid way too much for, you know,

ups,

for my, all my screw ups. Yep. And it's the best performing one because people are like all the time. They're just like, Oh my God, I can't believe

Yeah.

this. makes me feel so much better. And it's like, yeah, yeah. So.

yeah,

that's the big drive of your podcast. That's the big draw. I think of your podcast. I remember after the first episode telling, you know, my students to go and listen to it because exactly what you said and the feedback that you get is you're just real and you, you go through the journey, your own journey, and then people can learn, but they can also just kind of relate. And just make not get discouraged.

in the podcast, um, i'm i'm near the beginning of my instrument training You know, those are the episodes i'm releasing by the

Right.

Um remind me to talk to you about beyond the checkride that i've been doing you'll love this um, but uh, but yeah, that's what i'm doing right now and I look back on that so And I did this in the early part of So what, what editing and releasing these episodes is doing is letting me relive that and going, Oh man, that was a pretty hard rating. Like it was a

Yeah.

to learn. And I was just coming back into aviation after a multi year hiatus. Um, many of the terms and concepts I didn't know at all, you know, I

Yeah,

approaches I knew of departures, but I really didn't know any details about them. And it, it, it's been interesting to be able to go back a year and a half and go, wow. sucked, but, um, but I still do because I don't fly instrument very often. And once you go to your commercial, it's basically like a private pilot check, right on steroids. When you do that one, right there, you're

yeah. Mm-hmm

that. And so I've been staying current. And so, you know, with my instrument, and so. It's pretty funny because without doing it all the time, it is a very, very disposable skill. Like it goes away really, really quick. Um, and you, it's so easy to get behind the airplane, um, flying instrument. you're not doing it all the time, like seriously difficult. And so I'll go up with my son who's a private pilot. He'll be my safety pilot. And I'll go, Hey, I gotta, I want to knock out three approaches. I want to and get current and I'll get done with that. And not only am I exhausted, but I flew like the worst approaches you can imagine trying to get down to minimums and trying to correct and not get it, you know, whatever it is. And I'll come back just completely emotionally beat up because, um, because I was so bad at it. It was so hard for me to stay ahead and, and do everything that I'm supposed to be doing just on a simulated IFR approach. You know what I mean?

Yeah. So is that what you would say was the hardest part, just staying ahead with all that you kind of have to track and do.

I don't think that's the hardest part. I think the hardest part was collecting and retaining all of this new information and then being able to, and that's what made it hard to stay ahead of the airplane is now all of a sudden there's a whole lot more to do. And I wasn't doing this with an autopilot. you're talking hand flying. instrument approaches when you're kind of new to all of this briefing the plate because you're doing this single pilot even though you're sitting with a either a safety pilot an instructor or an examiner you're doing this single pilot they're not helping you do it you know what I mean

Yeah,

so you're acting like you're single pilot I mean single pilot if you're an actual IMC pilot approaches without without an autopilot that's no joke man I mean, that's not something it would take me a long time to feel comfortable doing that, um, in, in real IMC. Now, where I fly, we don't get a lot of IMC. I'd have to come out to San Diego in the spring and summer to get IMC down to minimums. You know, we just don't

yeah.

If we've got IMC conditions down to minimums, you shouldn't be flying. Cause you're probably in the middle of a thunderstorm or microburst,

Yeah.

or, or a Habub, right? But.

Yeah. That's true.

So, so it's not like I'm probably going to be doing that and, but I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it. It's it takes way too much practice and experience, in my opinion, to do single pilot IMC, um, to without having done it a lot in the

Mm-hmm

or two. You know what I

Yeah.

Even if I did it a lot for a year, because maybe I got a job somewhere where I was doing it like every day, and then I came back here and went for a year without doing that, I wouldn't do it. It's, it's way too, too much load. So

Yeah.

doing it a safety pilot or an examiner or an instructor where you're simulating single pilot, it's just as hard. It's just not as dangerous. Right?

Right.

is the time to do it, but the reason I wouldn't do it is I think it's too much unless you're doing it all the time because

100%.

have to be an autopilot in and of yourself. You can't be thinking about what's next. What next has to come naturally. So that's what I found. The hardest part is all of this new knowledge. The, the test, the written test for that, you know, you're teaching it. The written test for that is not, not easy, uh, because

Mm-hmm

whole bunch of new concepts and new ways to think about stuff that really has nothing to do with the private pilot exam that you just finished, you know, generally,

Yeah. So I,

go ahead.

uh, fi uh, do you wanna finish?

Oh, I was just going to say, um, but then adding to the, all that new knowledge, having to fly quote unquote, single pilot, IFR down to minimums with a whole bunch of different approaches all in one day.

Yeah.

Um, it's, exhausting and it's not

Mm-hmm

physically. It's exhausting mentally and emotionally because you you're behind the airplane or almost behind the, behind the airplane.

Right? You're always just trying to keep up.

And as soon

Yeah.

missed, you're like, you know, the examiner, if it's a check ride, the examiner says, all right, well, let's set up for, and you're like, I barely got through that. now I got to twist turn to, I got to do all of the stuff now to set up for this next one do all of this again with a different type of approach. It's, it's a lot, it's a lot, it

It is. Did I, I was curious to ask, like, 'cause I heard this during my private that like, you know, when people talked about IFR, like whether or not you should get it or how, I feel like there's this almost like, uh, belief that like. Because IFR is a little bit less hours and stuff in terms of, of the training that like, it's, it's easier. Or I remember thinking that, that it's like, it's a lot of being told that, Oh yeah, it's a lot easier. You'll get it done real quick. I guess. Fine. Like, and then when I,

It can be quicker.

right. Yeah, exactly. But like to say that, but I feel like a lot of students kind of think like, Oh, the ground is just going to be. You know, easy peasy. Like I'm just going to be relearned.

I mean,

Yeah.

I guess some of the weather stuff is just building on what you did in the private, but it is

Right.

I mean, you, now you're going to be diving into icing. You're going to be,

It's all about the details in IFR.

Yep.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm

um, and because, and it makes sense because if you aren't detailed and you're not on, you know, you're not flying the right speed, you're not, you don't have the right turn rate, you know, and, and you're flying IMC like, yeah, yeah, you have to, you have to be on the details. And so,

it makes you

yeah. Yeah.

a better pilot and part of it. Honestly, part of it is you realize, like we were talking about before, how little, you know, and how little experience you have.

Yeah,

one of the things that you do as part of the instrument training is, um, not everybody does it, but I think it's an important thing for an instructor to do is, hey, you know, close your eyes. And follow my instructions, you know,

yeah, yeah.

do this now, just make a nice level turn to the left, make it, you know, and you realize, man, I have no idea what attitude I'm in. You, you open your eyes and you're in some wacky attitude. Nothing like you thought you would be in and.

Mm-hmm

of like, I mean, everybody's probably done that as part of their instruction. It's very illustrative, it's kind of like that across the board on all the concepts you have to know about flying is you start to realize, man, I'm, thought I was this big, bad pilot. I am this, you know,

Yeah,

little baby just learning how to do some of this stuff. And I think that alone makes you a way better pilot.

yeah, yeah. The, yeah, the humbling part of it. Yeah, absolutely.

just learning all these new concepts about weather, learning all these new things about how to read forecasts that you just brushed over before, um, understanding people talk about how, you know, the private is really kind of, learning all the basics about a little of everything and getting good enough to start learning. Right. And that's, then you get your private, then you do your instrument and it's really kind of whole different set of concepts. then you go back to commercial and it's like taking all that stuff you did in private and really learning how to control the airplane. some people miss is you kind of really have to learn how to control the airplane In instrument, because you're going to have to learn how exactly what it takes exactly what power settings it's going to take to get a three degree descent along

Mm-hmm

you know, whatever instrument approach you're doing, if it has vertical guidance, for instance, you're really going to have to, how do I set the airplane up to stay on this ILS or, you know, on

Yeah. And then, yeah, or your, your wind changes, right? You get a different headwind and now

and figuring out that you've got to go past a couple of degrees and then, oh, that's taking me left. Of course. So I'm going to come back a couple of degrees and kind of nailing in based on the wind where you've got to be to stay on that localizer or stay on

mm-hmm

Uh, when you're doing an approach and by the way, you have to do that while managing your, your descent rate and while making sure you don't get too low beyond where you're supposed to be at that moment in time. Oh, and while you're doing all of that, brief the plate. Well, you would have briefed the plate before that, but you, you got to do that. And then while you're getting ready to come in, you've got to stay, um, you, you got to keep doing your announcements on the CTAF or, you know, if you're not, you know, If you're no longer with approach or if you're doing practice approaches at a non controlled airport, you got to make your CTAF calls and you get it's it's it's a lot. It makes you a better pilot because you're doing a lot more with a lot less information coming in. You're not just looking out of the airplane. It makes you realize how much information we discern from our eyes. we're flying.

Mm-hmm

And now all of a

Yeah.

have that. So you gotta be putting your eyes everywhere inside the cockpit and putting your mind everywhere. You got to make those CTAF calls while you don't get. off of your descent, or you don't bust your, your altitude that you have to stay at wherever you're at in the approach. And you know, all these little things, it just makes you do more with less information and with less time. it makes you a better pilot for that. I

Yeah. And.

who's a private pilot should get their instrument rating. Honestly, I don't think it

Yeah, it really does make,

make you a better pilot, even if you never fly in the system. In my

yeah,

humble opinion,

no, I would agree. And, uh, I was just recording before we started this, uh, audio lesson on, uh, in the IFR ground school on flying the glideslope and localizer. And I was just thinking as you're going through and you got to do this and you got this, and I was thinking, Oh yeah. And as you get closer to the ground, the localizer gets more sensitive. It's like, just like this stress test, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's like cheese.

yeah, and not just the, the localizer, but the glide slope too.

Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy.

Yep, that is correct. So I've got a, I've got a question for you. This might be a challenging question and then we'll wrap it up.

Okay.

Um, what do you think with both of your ground schools that you've done so far? What are the most challenging concepts or topics that you've had to cover? And maybe the ones you think about revising all the time, because they seem to be challenging for your students.

Oh yeah, that's a good question. Um, so VORs, I think is, uh, VORs, HSI, when you get into instrument, um, those are always difficult for students. They were difficult for me. Uh, you know, when I learned them. Um,

don't, I was, I was going to try and not to interrupt you, but now that you said that I, I've got

but no

So with the VORs, don't you sometimes do this little thing? Because this happens to me too, in the airplane, you're trying to teach somebody or show somebody. Hell, yeah, this is how it works. And then all of a sudden you go.

yeah.

a minute. Um,

Mm-hmm

yeah, that's right. That's right. I got it right. Because even now it's like the reverse. I don't know. You can always get yourself sideways, pun

No. Yeah. It's one of those things,

too much. And then you're like, wait, did I just mess that up?

it's one of those things that no matter how, and it's why the, you know, it's why people hate viewers and, and why at its core, even though we, we still are gonna use it and the fa is gonna keep a minimum number of UR 'cause it's a good backup. But even though all that's true and we have to learn it, it is a. Fundamentally kind of a poor system because no matter how much, you know, or how smart you are, you can still screw it up because of that. That just easy. Oops. Oh yeah, no, it's actually this way. Like, uh, the reverse sensing stuff. Yeah. So that's always difficult. Um, Density altitude a little bit, right? Um, just the concept in general, like, um, wait, when do we use this altitude? Why do we care about this? All the way it goes up. Like, I don't get it. And so density altitude is a tough one. Um, what else? Oh, I mentioned the one before just, uh, the effects of temperature and pressure, uh, in the atmosphere and how that relates to your altimeter. That one's always confusing and, you know. The altimeter as well. Like, so when you, you know, when you change your altimeter setting and the, you know, you're, you're increasing it, like what that does to the indicated altitude, that's reversed to if you're actually sensing it, right. So like if the pressure goes up or down outside and that's what your altimeter senses is going to change, you know, if, if the pressure goes up, it's going to go down, right.

reversed on that. Yep.

But then if you are inputting it, it's not the same thing, but because Cause you have to teach people that when you're changing that, you're changing the reference to the actual pressure. So there's an equation kind of, you know, your altimeter is taking the difference between what you're setting as the reference altitude and the actual one. Uh, so just concepts like that, that, um, you gotta get to the bottom of, um, are the, are the. The toughest ones. Yeah.

Awesome.

Yeah.

All

Yeah.

Well, anything, um, anything you want to tell the listeners about the site? You got any discount codes going on right now? Anything like that?

Uh, so we have a lot of free resources like always. And, uh, one thing we started doing, um, so I ultimately, right. My goal the whole time was to be in terms of value and price. Just be, we have the most value and we're still at that lower price level. So that

You don't need the

what. Right. You don't need the discounts. It's just there. It's less work for me. Right. I don't have to do all these campaigns and stuff. So I believe that we're there. Um, obviously we're not perfect and not, like I said, we're polishing it up, making it even better, but we do do one discount and it's kind of, I kind of call it like a, um, Kind of a kick in the butt, get you go and, uh, encourage, you know, action for people. So when people get our free resources, whether it's like our how to become a pilot and save money email course, or our free study guide, if they download that free resource, which are on our website. Part time pilot. com. Um, we give you an offer for the first three days. Um, you get 50 off, so it's just kind of, it works for me. Uh, it's a good marketing tactic as well. You know, you kind of put a time limit on something and people, uh, will act more a little bit, but also. You know, it kind of, you know, promotes action and and getting getting the crown done. And one question I was gonna ask you if we can, uh, in IFR, did you do ground school before you flew? Or did you do at the same time? Or how did you?

I did it, um, kind of did it before, but I was flying while I did it. So,

Okay. Yeah.

I, I was kind of. Engrossing myself in aviation at the time. And so I was flying three, three or four times a week. then when I wasn't flying, I was finishing up and it was because I was going fast at the beginning. um, normally what I would do and what I kind of did for CFI was I, I did my two tests, my ground and my two tests beforehand. Uh, and then kind of started flying. that's what I would normally do. Uh, but for my instrument, I kind of did them at the same time, but I, I finished my tests, I, I took, I took both tests. I took the CFII at the same time because it's almost the same. Um, it's almost exactly the same content. As you know, the instrument airplane. um, so I took both those tests early on in my flying, if that makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. So because with private pilot, we always recommend students do ground school first and get that base knowledge. It's just going to, you're going to have more time to just focus on flying. You're going to be more ahead of the aircraft, things like that. But with IFR, it's a little bit more, especially if students go straight from private to IFR, it's a little bit more difficult to tell them to like stop flying and do the ground because you want to keep that momentum. Like you said, it's a skill that if you don't use it, you lose it. Yeah.

flight anyway.

Right. So it's a little bit harder to do with IFR, but I still, I've been telling students to, you know, maybe continue flying and start your IFR lessons, but maybe give yourself, maybe start a little slower on the flight lessons and give yourself a time to digest some of that ground and the procedural stuff. And then really.

for private and

Yeah.

your private and you want to go straight into instrument, maybe fly once a week for a couple of weeks while you spend all that extra time on studying and,

Yeah.

um, doing the ground school and taking the test and then go back to two times a week or three times a week. You know, something like that. I think that's a great strategy.

Yeah, exactly. Cool. Well, this has been really fun. Thanks for having me on.

to catch up, Nick, and you're doing great

I need to get a better studio background. Like you have got the backlight and all that stuff. I got Halloween decorations.

Hey man, it's that time of year.

Yeah,

I like it. All right. Well, thanks again for joining us and I'm sure we'll catch up in another, hopefully it's not two more years, but in a little while and you'll have some additional offerings on the site.

absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. It's a pleasure. Appreciate it.

Well, it real and, um, keep showing your mistakes and, and being real. And I think you're going to keep doing really well. So thanks again. And we'll talk soon.

Yeah. Thank you.

Well, that'll do it for this week's episode. Remember to reach out to me, however you decide to, and stay tuned for a bunch of new stuff hitting the feed in the coming weeks. By the way, I am so glad to have completed my CFI. I haven't started teaching regularly yet but what a ride that was. Someday I'll have to do an episode on that epic check ride, but that day is not today. It was fun and I learned a ton, but I'm really glad it's over. Even an old guy like me can learn new tricks, I guess. Remember, if you just stick with it, you can become a pilot, or a better pilot, or Get a rating or another certificate or even become a CFI.