PART 2

[00:00:00]

[00:00:00] Ross Mc: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to season 6, episode 5 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:11] Ross White: In an ancient wood stands a majestic tree. This tree has known summer's blistering heat and winter's icy chill. It has endured times of drought and floods of unrelenting rain. It has been dappled by sunlight and engulfed by the darkness of a moonless night. it has stood serenely still in times of tranquility, and been buffeted by winds gusting violently. And still this tree stands, resolute and unbowed. When you look at the shadow cast by the tree, it will be strikingly familiar to you. It is your silhouette. You are that tree.

[00:00:57] Ross Mc: Pea Soopers. You've just heard Professor Ross White reading the preface to his book, the Tree That Bends. In this episode, we continue our chat and Ross's people soup. Ingredients are thriving. Psychological flexibility, tree wisdom, relentlessness, resetting, and cultural architects.

[00:01:18] You'll hear Ross respond to my review and how Hooke's Law from our A Level Physics lesson can be applied to humans at work.

[00:01:25] I'm also on a personal mission to see if we can get the hashtag BeMoreTree trending.

[00:01:42] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, welcome. It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioural science and beyond. For those of you who are regular PSupers, thanks for tuning in again.

[00:01:56] We love it that you are part of our community. A quick scoot [00:02:00] over to the news desk. My collaboration with Dr. Richard McKinnon continues. I am delighted to be joining him for the delivery of an Open Access Blended Learning course in November. It's called Thriving with Psychological Flexibility and it's open to all, and it's just the ticket to support you in landing well in 2025.

[00:02:18] You'll find all the details in the link in the show notes. So let's crack on. so for now, get a brew on and have a listen to part two of my chat with Professor Ross White.

[00:02:33] Ross, the time has come. I want to dive more into your book, and I'd like to start with my review. And P Supers, Ross is looking a little apprehensive now, as he hasn't heard this review yet. So I'll not hold back any longer, I'll just dive in.

[00:02:51] Ross White, buckle up, because I'm going to say two things I've never said in a book review before. Firstly, it's a right page turner, and secondly, it's a masterpiece. Ross blends history, philosophy, films, sports, literature, Business, client stories, research, theory, and his own personal experience to build a compelling rationale for cultivating a flexible mind, including really practical exercises.

[00:03:26] His writing is captivating, particularly when he describes significant moments from his own life. This powerful role modeling allows us to appreciate Ross's humanity and builds trust in him as our guide. And the title is far more than an illustrative metaphor. It's integral to the book and you'll also come away with insights into the secret world and magnificent adaptability of trees.

[00:03:52] This book is so aligned with what I do in the workplace that I've already recommended it to two coaching clients. [00:04:00] Bravo, Ross.

[00:04:01] Ross White: Wow. I'm actually quite emotional. Yeah. Speechless. The reason being Ross, because you put a book out there and there's this uneasy period of time where you're left to wonder how is this landing with folk, right? And it's just over two weeks. And it's not a lot of time for people to have had the opportunity to read it, right, or to

[00:04:32] listen to it on audible. So you wait with bated breath, but, um, your words are so appreciated. And there were some lovely touchstone words that you were Sharing in your review there that really mattered to me and how I wanted to write the book and how I wanted it to land. and the bit where I got quite emotional was when you talked about recommending it to two of your clients. That for me is the most powerful endorsement I could ever hope to have. So you've made me. Very happy. Um, so thank you.

[00:05:12] Ross Mc: Well, well, thank you for, for writing the book because I don't recommend books to, to my clients lightly, but I can see me recommending it to more clients.

[00:05:24] Ross White: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

[00:05:26] Ross Mc: Let's explore a bit, Ross. Why did you feel compelled to write this? You've talked about your, your move from sort of academic writing to, to more personal writing driven by that desire to get this to more people.

[00:05:39] Tell us more about that sort of process.

[00:05:41] Ross White: Yeah. A number of times clients that I work with have asked me to recommend a book. And I'm very happy to do that and I'm fortunate to have read some, some great books. Both for five to thrive as the newsletter and some of the monthly reviews that I do. That's a real [00:06:00] blessing and a great encouragement to me to, to set aside the time to do the reading, which is a big passion to learn and then to be able to share about that learning. So, yeah, clients would have asked me to recommend books and, Ross Harris, uh, happiness trap, for example, Paul Gilbert, compassionate mind. some really great helpful resources that are readable and entertaining and how they present the work the way they did. But I was conscious that I have a particular approach to integrating some of the focus on compassion that we've talked about already with psychological flexibility. And it struck me that there was a real opportunity there for the high performance environments and clients I work with to benefit from someone like me accepting the challenge to write for wider audiences. So that's really what set the train in motion. And whenever I've been working in sub Saharan Africa, and Uganda, I was aware that of this Tanzanian proverb, the wind does not break the tree that bends. And that just stayed with me. It's such a powerful image. So yeah, that was really a guiding light once I had a title for a work that I hoped to do. So I then got in contact with a literary agent and we worked up the proposal and we put the proposal out to a number of publishing houses and it was great.

[00:07:35] There was interest. And yeah, that was in April of 2022, and the book, uh, was released two weeks ago. So it's been a fantastic journey, one that has definitely seen me move from a form of conforming zone into a transforming zone, growing and developing. And yeah, I hope that it's, [00:08:00] it's helpful for people. The key focus is on this concept of thriving. I just thought, wow, nature is such a powerful teacher, and when we consider that trees have been around for at least, get this, 350 million more years than we have been on the planet,

[00:08:21] 350 million years, okay, so maybe there's things that we can learn from nature. Nature from trees, in particular, about what it means to thrive. And, um, for me, I think the tree represented a great way of understanding psychological flexibility and for listeners, psychological flexibility is the ability to be true to what matters to us and to shift our relationship with the thoughts and the feelings that might arise as we pursue that purpose so that it doesn't block us. It doesn't become a way of preventing us from progressing towards that, that sense of purpose. So the anatomy of the tree for me represent the psychological flexibility quite well. The roots anchor the tree. And there's something about us needing to be anchored into the space and the time in which our lives are unfolding. Too often we mentally time travel back to the past and get stuck in rumination. Or we end up anticipating futures that may not come to pass, but we still worry and we're quite future oriented. So we're not anchored in this space and this time. The trunk of the tree needs to sway in the wind to allow the tree to endure. And like the trunk of the tree, we need to be willing, willing, to lean in to difficult experiences. To lean into difficult emotions, difficult thoughts that might arise, rather than rushing [00:10:00] to resist, because if we resist, we can get rigid. And that's when difficulties can emerge. We start to live life small. So then the final piece of psychological flexibility is represented by the crown of the tree, which is the engine room. That's where photosynthesis happens, that's where trees generate their fuel by using the sunlight and growing towards the sunlight, its source of energy. For me that represented what I refer to as the empowered element of psychological flexibility where we grow towards our sense of purpose, where we demonstrate particular personal values and growing towards that source of energy for us. So yeah, for me, psychological flexibility is represented by those three parts of the anatomy of the tree. Being anchored, like roots. Being willing, like the trunk of the tree. And being empowered, like the crown of the tree.

[00:10:59] Ross Mc: Thank you. And, like I said in my review, I learned a lot about trees that I didn't know before, and there's one, I was just looking through my notes just now, and I don't think I noted the name of it, but maybe you can remember, there was, there was one that you described that moves, was it called the trembling or something, or the

[00:11:19] Quaking Aspen

[00:11:19] Ross White: The quaking aspen. That's it.

[00:11:21] the quaking aspen and trembling is right, you know, because it trembles, its leaves move in the slightest breeze. So it can be seen to quake when other trees just aren't in motion. So what's that about? Well, the leaves of the quaking aspen are designed, By nature to, to move so that sunlight can access through the crown of the tree onto the trunk, because there is the opportunity within the Quake and Aspen for the trunk of the tree to be involved in photosynthesis as well as the leaves. So

[00:11:59] the [00:12:00] leaves move so that light can pass through and penetrate to the trunk so it can generate the fuel it needs. And the quaking aspen is what's called a pioneer tree. Pioneer? Well, if an area is devastated by a forest fire, pioneer trees are the first trees to grow back, and they grow back, and they grow back quickly. So if you think about it, the quake in Aspen needs to generate that large amount of fuel so it can grow fast. Now the problem with growing fast is the quake in Aspen doesn't live very long. And it dies young.

[00:12:36] It can't sustain that effort. And for me, I think that's a very powerful metaphor for burnout. We can all go hard and fast, but is that going to be sustainable in the long run?

[00:12:48] Is that going to be something that we can, foster in the longer term?

[00:12:53] Ross Mc: Yeah, thank you. this depth of knowledge and interest in trees, is this something that came alongside the book, or had you had it before then?

[00:13:02] Ross White: Yeah, I think before I, I'm very passionate about nature. I love getting outdoors and, um, experiencing outdoors. I recognize the benefits that has brought for me in terms of my own psychological, um, wellbeing and my physical wellbeing. So whether it's out on the bike or going for a hike,

[00:13:20] um, you know, going out, uh, taking the dog for a walk, which was a big part of, um, trying to write the book as well, right.

[00:13:29] To get out and, um, get your head cleared. So, um, very thankful for Bobby the dog for taking me on walks, not the other way around,

[00:13:38] to help me see the wood for the trees whenever I was engaged in that writing process.

[00:13:43] Ross Mc: yeah, I think, I think my interest in trees has grown as I've got older. Particularly now when I visit my dad in the house where I grew up from birth,

[00:13:54] my dad lives on an estate on the sort of outskirts of a village in Northumberland, [00:14:00] and there are trees now that are as old as I am.

[00:14:03] Ross White: Mm hmm.

[00:14:04] Ross Mc: And I look at them and think, Blimey,

[00:14:07] you're pretty majestic and you've just been there quietly doing your stuff.

[00:14:11] Ross White: Mm hmm.

[00:14:12] Ross Mc: And my mum used to complain about the trees at the back on an area we called the green,

[00:14:17] Ross White: Yep.

[00:14:17] Ross Mc: because they used to block out a bit of the sun from the

[00:14:20] garden. But they are absolutely majestic and now I'm fortunate enough to have a garden.

[00:14:27] First time in my adult life

[00:14:29] I've lived in a place with our own garden. And I'm absolutely fascinated by the trees because they're different as well for me. There's an orange tree and a lemon tree and, uh, Oh, orange, lemon and olive. Yes, that's it.

[00:14:43] Ross White: Not indigenous species to the northeast of England, I imagine.

[00:14:48] Ross Mc: That, that is correct.

[00:14:51] Ross White: We can safely say.

[00:14:53] Ross Mc: Indeed we can. But even if we think about trees in our lives, there's a, there's a tree that I always remember passing on to me. Trips as a child. Between, I would say it's between Riding Mill and Hexham. This really spectacular tree that was kind of a landmark of my youth and it's still there.

[00:15:13] Ross White: Mm-Hmm.

[00:15:13] Ross Mc: it was probably a couple of hundred years old when I was a

[00:15:16] Ross White: Mm-Hmm. .Yeah. Amazing.

[00:15:20] Ross Mc: we've got a lot to learn from

[00:15:21] trees as you really bring to life in your book.

[00:15:24] Ross White: Yeah. Well, let, let me say a little more about what the book is focused on, and it relates to your question of why I wrote it. I increasingly, over the last number of years, I've been frustrated, frustrated by a biased, skewed impression of what qualities contribute to success. And particularly success in high performance environments. And there's been this kind of pervasive messaging about the no limits, right? No limits, just push, push hard. This kind of suck it [00:16:00] up attitude. And the kind of, Do more to be more mantra, right? And you see some people doing this and acquiring quite huge followings on social media, but whether it be David Goggins, um, former us Marine, he's now an endurance athlete, Jocko Willink, um, again, retired service man, but someone who is quite into, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and UFC kind of training regimes and it's very driven, you know, it's all about being up before 5am and getting out and doing your thing. And look, I'm not going to argue against the important role that some of those qualities can play. So being driven, being highly motivated, being conscientious. Being persistent, but for me, it's only giving part of the story and there are a lot of other important qualities and attributes that contribute to success in high performance environments that are, dare I say, less sexy, but perhaps more important than all of that stuff. Things like, yeah, taking care of oneself. Being self compassionate, being flexible, right?

[00:17:25] Gritty conscientiousness and tenacity

[00:17:25] Ross White: So it's not just about gritty conscientiousness, it's about being adaptive, responding to the particular environment that you might be in and recognizing that certain attributes might be better. to foreground and those environments relative to others.

[00:17:46] So for example, in the boardroom, arguably there may be times where tenacity can be an important attribute for pushing through and getting projects over the line. [00:18:00] Not always, but it has its role. So tenacity in the boardroom, is that necessarily going to be the attribute that you want to blindly apply across all contexts. So as you transition out of the boardroom into the kitchen, back home with your family, is tenacity going to necessarily be the strong suit that you want to foreground in those environments? So there's something about being sensitive to the context that you're in, being adaptive, being flexible in deploying particular attributes.

[00:18:36] Relentlessness or relent more

[00:18:36] Ross White: And again, for me, this idea of relentlessness is a key focus for the book. You know, this relentlessness, I argue that we need to relent more, not less, right? Relent more to the idea that we're not going to get everything done. Relent more to showing up to difficult emotions that we might experience as we pursue our purpose rather than trying to avoid, suppress, dampen down, because that can be a futile effort. Relent more to the yearning that we all have to actually pivot and move towards the purposes that matter to us. Right, because we can too often in our careers get to a place where we realize, oh my goodness, I've been pursuing someone else's dream, not my own. And the yearning, the yearning for that purpose is there, but it's just that we haven't necessarily had that. the ability to really connect with it and to move towards it. So relent more. And I think trees again are, are helpful.

[00:19:54] Th anatomy of trees - get, threat and reset mode

[00:19:54] Ross White: So please just allow me to expand on the anatomy of the tree that we've looked at [00:20:00] to also think about the functioning of a tree and a tree will have its spring and its summer when it needs to be in get mode. where it needs to be driven to pursue the source of energy that's going to allow it to build the fuel that it needs to grow. So it's going to get busy photosynthesizing. The branches grow towards the sunlight. The, the leaves are there to collect the sun's energy, to engage in that process of photosynthesis. So the tree has its get mode. But a tree also needs to dedicate energy to protecting itself during storms. It needs to have the capacity to sway in the wind. It also needs to protect itself against the threat of infestation from bugs or fungi which can kill trees, and that takes energy. So that's the tree's threat mode. So we have get mode, spring and summer photosynthesize. Threat mode, through the year, trying to respond to danger. And then we have reset mode, which is where in the autumn the leaves drop from the, the branches and the tree goes through a period of dormancy. And that's about resetting, and that's the reset mode. And that's an opportunity for revitalization that will allow it to bleed into spring and summer of renewed effort and energy. So get threat and reset modes associated with striving, surviving, and reviving. And for me, I think that is where we need to be. We need to recognize, sure, there's nothing wrong with striving. Go after what you're passionate about, be true to it. Right. Nothing wrong with striving. Be aware of potential danger. My goodness, we're not going to last very long if we're not sensitive to that. So recognize that your threat mode has its [00:22:00] place and that there will be particular contexts where, yes, we need to be sensitive to those dangers, but let's not forget about the reset mode. And often in life, our get mode and our threat mode are really highly activated and we never get in to reset. And I think that ultimately is contributing to the rise in burnout rates that we're seeing. So I make the point in the book that psychological flexibility is this capacity for us to, yes, strive, yes, survive, yes, revive, and to do it in a way that is balanced across the different environments that we find ourselves in.

[00:22:44] Ross Mc: It's just a joy to hear you bring to life these these concepts from the book and and make them accessible for others, which is another reason I think this book is so important because you'll be as familiar as I am with organizations and speaking to ambitious highly motivated people either as individuals or as teams where they really do have that Keep going and that sort of toxicity of you've got to keep going to achieve or I've got to follow my guru and do What they do I get up at 4 a.

[00:23:16] m Go for a marathon run and then an oxygen tank for a while before I have egg whites for breakfast It's it's there's Do this or you're weak, and do this, and this is the key to you achieving your goals, and

[00:23:33] it's so important that people hear this other side, this kind of alternative. It's not quite myth busting,

[00:23:42] but it's kind of myth adjusting. This isn't the whole, this isn't the whole story.

[00:23:47] Doing more of the tough stuff isn't the hardest thing

[00:23:47] Ross White: Yeah. just on that point. Um, I think it's, uh, important to recognize that for the clients I work with and for many people out there [00:24:00] and the people that you would work with doing more of the tough stuff. Isn't the hardest thing doing less of it is right because that's when, Oh, the vulnerability of what accessing my reset mode, stepping away from the get mode, the vulnerability shows up. Right. And there is something about, I think from my perspective, being vulnerable requires more courage. than being tough. And I think that's the myth adjusting element here, right? So let me just repeat that for me. I think being vulnerable required more courage than being tough.

[00:24:46] Ross Mc: so powerful. And I talk, I sometimes talk about that with senior teams saying, your willingness and your capacity to vulnerable with each other is the price of admission to you becoming the team that you really could be.

[00:25:03] And I often pause and then repeat it. And you can see it landing sometimes, but not always. You can see those, those barriers to vulnerability. And those people who kind of sense it, they feel that they're What they might describe as the mask slipping. People will perceive them as weak and not a visionary leader, not inspiring anymore.

[00:25:28] Where the absolute opposite is true.

[00:25:31] Cultural Architects

[00:25:31] Ross White: I think there's been some lovely examples of, of Damien Hughes from the High Performance Podcast often uses this term about cultural architects. So I think he would be the first person to say he didn't coin it, but, um, he certainly uses it and he uses it to good effect. And, um, yeah, cultural architects are key people within organizations that embody the The, the attributes, the [00:26:00] qualities, the values that can be so instrumental and influencing that milieu. All right. They're leaders in helping to create a culture. And there have been people like Nick Cox who have gone on record, Nick Cox, was speaking in his capacity at that time. I think he still is the head of the Manchester United Football Club Academy. Right. And he spoke very powerfully about. The important role that vulnerability plays and his approach to leadership, his willingness to talk with other senior leaders within the organization about him not knowing about him being uncertain about him seeking advice creates a context that other people are then more comfortable and feel safe to acknowledge when they don't know and they might need to seek advice.

[00:26:54] You And support. So yeah, cultural architect, Nick Cox, but Arianna Huffington of the Huffington Post has spoken for many years about the important role that this concept of thriving can play in successful organizations. And, you know, she has been a pioneer within the organization around some of the approaches to workplace communication, you know, and about emails, being focused on office hours as opposed to outside office hours, really trying to enshrine the importance of approaches such as mindfulness. For allowing people to develop that capacity to be present in a nonjudgmental way and the important role that that could play within organizations. And more recently, Sir John Kerwin, who's a former All Blacks rugby player associated with an organization called Groove. G R O O V. And again, they are putting a focus on thriving as an important [00:28:00] concept.

[00:28:00] So it feels like a good time to be focusing on this concept of thriving, which I describe in the book as, yes, performing well. And feeling well, right?

[00:28:11] It's excelling and feeling well, too. And that's about, from my perspective, flexibly using those capacities to strive, survive, and revive. That, for me, encapsulates the key elements of thriving. And my position in the book is that, well, psychological flexibility allows us to deploy those abilities to strive, to survive, And to revive. Which contribute ultimately to the thriving and the appeal really is for us all to be more tree. Mm Mm.

[00:28:48] hmm.

[00:28:48] Ross Mc: I'd like to see that hashtag taking off, Ross. Hashtag be more tree. Let's see what we can do because I think there's a sense sometimes in the people I work with that,

[00:29:00] and they could be a board level, executive level on the cusp of becoming, for instance, a partner. in an organization and they're being overloaded in a way that kind of represents what the person who's overloading them went through to get where

[00:29:19] Ross White: Yep.

[00:29:21] Ross Mc: So they're saying, I'm going to do to you what got me here.

[00:29:25] And they use expressions like, it takes, it takes immense pressure to, to produce a diamond or something. You know, there's an awful phrase around that.

[00:29:33] Ross White: Mm hmm.

[00:29:35] Ross Mc: And then I see people really struggling. Maybe people who have other challenges in their life going on and just, uh, pretty damn exhausted.

[00:29:45] Ross White: Mm

[00:29:46] Ross Mc: The green shoots that I see are them really looking after their physical health.

[00:29:51] Ross White: hmm.

[00:29:51] Ross Mc: And when I talk to them about psychological flexibility and the importance of this and share stories from, that I've picked [00:30:00] up from my work with professional ballet dancers, I consider them to be

[00:30:04] elite

[00:30:05] Ross White: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

[00:30:06] Ross Mc: And Insights from sports world. I find that really helps them understand it. I think that's, that's really important as a way in for us to be sharing this with more organizations.

[00:30:18] The other thing I see is people who've been promoted or moved to a different organization,

[00:30:22] and they keep doing what they did to be successful in that previous organization or

[00:30:26] Ross White: mm

[00:30:27] Ross Mc: role.

[00:30:28] They're not noticing the context around them or the elevation in their responsibility. And they are puzzled by this, and this is again where psychological flexibility can be a portable thing that we could take with us from role to role or throughout our lives to

[00:30:46] Ross White: hmm.

[00:30:46] Ross Mc: to really help us explore and appreciate those, those new challenges.

[00:30:52] Ross White: Yeah, well there are so many things that I could pick out of that, right? And I think Alan Watts, the English philosopher, he talked a lot about the way in which we bring our children up to then bring their children up, who then bring their children up. in a similar fashion to pursue money in the hope that the money may afford opportunities to do the things that matter to us. But in making the money, we drive ourselves into a position that we're time poor. And we don't get the opportunity to actually do those things. I think he describes it as it's all retch and no vomit, which is a very powerful kind of metaphor. and then, yeah, like it takes immense pressure to convert a lump of coal into a diamond.

[00:31:45] Oh yeah. Right. That old chestnut.

[00:31:48] Hooke's Law

[00:31:48] Ross White: Well, I'm quite interested in another analogy and it's Robert Hooke. He came up with Hooke's law, so he was the 17th century physicist and he [00:32:00] was interested in hanging weights off springs and we might remember this from our A level physics classes, right? You can load a force, i.

[00:32:11] e. a weight, onto a spring, and it will extend the spring, and lo and behold, when you remove the weight, hey, it bounces back to be the spring it was before, up until the point that its elastic limit, as Robert Hooke referred to it, is exceeded, and you will load so much weight onto that spring that you permanently deform it. You take the weight off, it's not going to stretch back into what it was before. And indeed, if you apply even more force or weight onto that spring, you will break the spring. And that, Robert Hooke described as the breaking point. Lo and behold, that has entered our language. It's moved away from springs to people. So, for me, I think the better analogy around that isn't Coal and Diamonds, it's Springs, Elastic Limit, and Breaking Points. And we need to recognize that there is going to be a point at which our limits will be exceeded, right? For me, there are limits, right? And this is counter to the no limits

[00:33:16] approach, right? So there are limits. There are limits to our health. There are limits to our psychological well being. There are limits to our time. There are limits to our resources. And I think we need to acknowledge those limits.

[00:33:29] Ross Mc: Oh gosh. Yeah. And, and Hook's Law. Yeah. That brought back, as you were talking, it brought back a vision of Mr. Turland. demonstrating that to us with a spring and putting more and more weights on it and showing how it could go back, but then showing how it then didn't go back and then it broke. It's very

[00:33:46] vivid. did he manage to get his toes out of the way of the falling weights?

[00:33:50] Well, it's really funny you should say that, Ross, because he was asking me to pass more weights because it was like the whole class was captivated and [00:34:00] I was trying to be cool in the class also. Quite an anxious type of fella,

[00:34:04] Ross White: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

[00:34:06] yeah, yeah,

[00:34:08] Ross Mc: It's kind of, in the Passover, it dropped.

[00:34:10] It didn't hit his feet or

[00:34:12] mine, thank God, but I was mortified and read as a beetroot.

[00:34:17] And it's such a useful metaphor. It's actually a passage that I highlighted amongst many others in the pdf, and you were kind enough to arrange for me to have a pdf of the book just for speed's sake, and I have ordered it as well from Amazon, because it's one that I know will be kind of reference book for me.

[00:34:42] Now, you mentioned an audiobook. I didn't know this.

[00:34:47] Ross White: a half days in a very small recording booth in, um, a part of London and, The building that, the Hachette Publishing Company use, Quarkus, the publisher of the book is, is an imprint of Hachette. And, um, yeah, it was a really interesting experience to work with a great producer, a guy called Chad, over those three and a half days.

[00:35:10] And who, who knew, Uh, reading your own book would be such a challenge, seven, seven, hours a day. Um, and I benefited enormously from the patience and good tutelage of Chad and, uh, we got the job done, but I'm, I'm really pleased because I just think, uh, from an authenticity point of view, having the chance to hear a book read by the author is amazing. A much richer experience than it would have been had it been read by someone else.

[00:35:44] Ross Mc: Yeah, hell yeah, and you've got a voice made for it, man. So, not

[00:35:50] Ross White: Diddly diddly diddly diddly diddly. Something like that, right? Amazing. You know,

[00:35:58] Ross Mc: at all. I think, I [00:36:00] think, as you say, I much prefer an author reading their own book than, someone else performing it. And I've noticed on the socials, I've seen you spotting it out in the wild, your book. What does that feel like?

[00:36:16] Ross White: a point of view of the project kind of getting to that point, right? Having a physical object that you can hold but yeah, I was walking past, uh, a great bookshop in Belfast. I suppose I can name it, can't I?

[00:36:31] Ross Mc: Of course,

[00:36:31] Ross White: No alibis on Botanic Avenue and uh, it's a big shop I often walk past. So, um, I just thought, oh, I'll pop in and just inquire whether or not they're going to stock it. and I walked in and said to the staff behind the, uh, the counter, very tentatively, I said, um, do you do self-help books? And they sort of looked at each other and shook their heads.

[00:36:56] Not really. And I said, Oh, I'm a local author. And I just wondered whether you're going to stock the book. And, um, I said, okay, well, what's it called? And I said, the tree that bends and no sooner was bends out of my mouth. And they were like, we have it. And, um, you know, this is actually two days before they, I hope I'm not getting Noel Weiser in trouble. but they had taken the delivery and, they had gone. a little early with, uh, just putting it on the shelves and, um, that was such a lovely thing to be able to walk over and see physical copies of the book. And I was very happy to sign copies for them to put the signed by the author sticker on the front, which was, um, lovely, but, uh, big thanks to. David and the team at No Alibis, they were lovely and yeah, great to see it in the shops that way.

[00:37:49] Ross Mc: And it's early days, but have you had response from, from any others?

[00:37:54] Ross White: I think it's, there's been lovely to promote the book. So I've done, I think this is [00:38:00] maybe podcast number five, which is lovely,

[00:38:02] right? Great.

[00:38:03] opportunity to talk about it and both in the United States and in the UK. So lovely to have that. Um, and then there's been some media coverage as well, the Sunday Independent. in Ireland, printed a story with an interview with myself there yesterday, Belfast Telegraph published an extract, the local newspaper here in Northern Ireland, and then RTE, the Irish television broadcaster, had an extract on at the weekend from the book too. So, but we're in that very interesting period, as I mentioned, just, um, between the book being released and people having an opportunity now to go out and buy it.

[00:38:44] And yeah, I've been waiting just to, to hear how people have found it and what they're taking from it. So I'm really curious to, to find out what, what people are getting from it. I know it was lovely for you to share that today. So I'm grateful.

[00:38:57] Ross Mc: Wanted to talk to you about the dedication in the book

[00:39:00] Ross White: Mm-Hmm?

[00:39:01] Ross Mc: your Uncle Tom.

[00:39:03] Ross White: Yeah.

[00:39:03] Ross Mc: it felt. It moved me to read that. Would you mind telling us a bit more about him and the reason for that dedication?

[00:39:10] Ross White: Yeah. So Thomas White, uh, was my dad's brother, only brother. And uh, yeah, I was blessed to have him in my life growing up. He had emigrated to Australia and lived over in Australia for about 10 years. So he had gone away not long after I was born, but returned whenever I was 11 years old. And he was such a huge presence in my life, um, supporting Glenavon football club, our local football team, Tom and I would have gone to games together, both home and away and would have traveled all over Northern Ireland to watch football, but he was a man of many books. probably the first person in our family to go to university. He went to Trinity College, Dublin it was well read, very passionate about [00:40:00] books yeah, I developed my love of books and music as well. He introduced me to some great music, yeah, whenever I was, uh, a teenager, got me into music.

[00:40:09] Yeah. Very cool people like Leonard Cohen, Warren Ziffon, if listeners haven't heard Warren Ziffon, check that out. and yeah, it was great to have him there and he was also very big in the humanist society in Ireland, and unfortunately he passed away just at the point where the first draft of the book was submitted, right? Um, yeah, it was lovely to be able to dedicate the book to him, but there's also a poignancy about knowing that he wasn't able to read. the work, um, so thank you for asking about that.

[00:40:48] Uh, I miss the conversations that Tom and I had.

[00:40:52] Ross Mc: I really felt the poignancy and the gravity of that dedication, so thank you for sharing a bit more about Uncle Tom. So, before we were recording, we talked about This being the sort of waiting period. But I wonder in that waiting period, are you already thinking about what's next? Or are you just having a well deserved rest?

[00:41:16] Ross White: Yeah, it's something I talk about in the book, about the importance of savouring moments

[00:41:22] and being quite purposeful in how we approach the end of projects, or indeed transition periods within projects, and the idea of pre commitment pledges. So in advance we are thinking about, well, this is the objective that I'm trying to achieve. When that is achieved, I will take time to do this.

[00:41:50] That could be a period of travel, that could be an opportunity to, um, take a break from, uh, a [00:42:00] particular focus in your work just to reset, right? Because that's an, an important element of this, thriving. So, um, yeah, I was quite deliberate in the planning that I took in writing the book to make sure I did take time, not only to savor the end of the project, but to also allow me time and opportunity to recoup. Energy, to allow time for some creativity around what might come next. So I'm certainly not rushing on to the next unachieved thing. and I recognize that there'll be that push or draw if you like to maintain a level of busyness and activity and I'm holding that lightly. Yeah, right. So it's that kind of strong intention to be true to my purpose and being light in the attachment that I might have to doing things in a particular fixed way.

[00:42:58] So strong intention, light attachment in this, this time period at the moment.

[00:43:04] Ross Mc: It's great to hear you applying your own medicine, your own wisdom to yourself. But there is one thing I'll say, and I'll kick myself if I don't. Has anyone ever said to you, Have you thought about writing fiction?

[00:43:20] Ross White: It's funny, you do reflect a lot on the writing process and the opportunities that then present themselves in terms of where you could go with the writing. So yeah, that's something, if I was to say I hadn't thought about it, I would be a liar. I know that there are people in that space as well who I greatly admire and, certainly I think Matt Haig would be an author that I'd certainly mention and encourage listeners to check out. But I think he's got a wonderful gift for. using fiction, but also autobiography too, in some of his past books, He has a gift [00:44:00] for really engaging readers on an emotional level that I admire him for, so

[00:44:05] Ross Mc: The reason I said it is because One of the foundations for why I called it a page turner, because the way you wrote about your personal experiences was beautifully done. So,

[00:44:16] Ross White: thank you.

[00:44:17] Ross Mc: I'm going to have to bring this to a close. I could continue, but do you have a takeaway you'd like to finish with, to share with our listeners, just something that maybe could apply to people in the workplace?

[00:44:29] Ross White: Yeah, I think one of the important things that I emphasize in the book, Simon Sinek has done fantastic work, and the focus that he really applied to, starting with why. Right? Y being purpose and that leading into a focus, if you like, on process, which is the how, which can then lead to important outputs, products, if you like. Okay. So that kind of why, how and what, but for me, I also wanted to add in which, which qualities are you going to bring to how you engage in your processes. So if purpose is important, process is important, product is important. I also like to think that proclivity matters and it's a really interesting word proclivity, but that speaks to which proclivity is about which qualities are we going to bring to the fore and what we do right. So for me, I think that's a call to listeners to think about the personal values you really want to bring to the processes that you engage in, because you and I could engage in exactly the same process. But we could do it very differently. Right? You know, what is it about how you want to engage with those processes?

[00:45:57] Are you going to do it conscientiously? Are you going to do it [00:46:00] assertively? Are you going to do it wisely? Are you going to do it reflectively? Are you going to do it compassionately? Right. And you're going to have those personal values that are going to influence that proclivity in terms of how you engage with your processes.

[00:46:13] And I'll have mine. And I encourage listeners to think about, well, what personal values do I want to bring and how I show up in the processes that I'm engaging in, in the workplace or in the sporting arena. You know, am I going to be the one who's just sort of, just getting through churning out the motions, or am I going to be someone who's curious, curious to kind of learn how that experience might be. Am I going to have fun with it? Am I going to, do it in a way that is collegiate? Am I going to interact with others in a kind of friendly and cooperative way as I engage in those processes? So proclivity is an important piece I wanted to add in to that, that framework that Simon Sinek has done fantastically well to develop. The other point that I would emphasize, Ross, is that for me, You know, that idea of finding your why

[00:47:06] Purpose is formed not found

[00:47:06] Ross White: can be a bit limiting. I don't think that purpose is found. I think it's formed. And I think for listeners, they'll be thinking, well, what is my purpose? Well, your purpose, the seeds of it are there already in what brings vitality to your life. It could be that you get a buzz from coaching others, kids football team in the local area. It could be that you get a buzz from contributing to a charitable cause. It could be that you get a sense of vitality from being creative. and working as part of a team to come up with ideas and implementing those ideas. It could be that you get vitality from being a finisher, someone who completes and gets through the project. You've got to listen to that. You've got to cultivate those seeds and your purpose grows from that.[00:48:00]

[00:48:00] Ross Mc: Uh,

[00:48:01] Ross White: So don't wait thinking I'm going to walk around the corner and trip over my purpose and oh, there it is, I found it, right?

[00:48:08] It's there in what already brings energy and vitality in your life. And it's about listening to it and allowing that to influence some of the choices that you make. And very, very finally, finally is just for the listeners to take good care of themselves along the road, to use that reset mode so that they can continue to take care of business by taking care of themselves.

[00:48:33] Ross Mc: Brilliant. Ross, thank you for your generosity, your wisdom, and for writing this book.

[00:48:39] Ross White: Pleasure. Thank you for the invite.

[00:48:42] Ross Mc: That's it folks, part two of my chat with Ross in the bag. please do check out his book, The Tree That Bends. And remember, this is the first review where I used the word masterpiece. You'll find all the details for this episode in the show notes at peoplesoup.

[00:49:00] captivate. fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why. you can email at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com. On Twitter, we're at Ross McCoach. On Instagram, people. soup. And on Facebook, peoplesouppod.

[00:49:19] You can help me reach more people with the special Peopleship ingredients.

[00:49:23] Stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, Peasippers, and bye for now.

[00:49:39]

[00:49:39] Ross White: Pleasure. Um, yeah, thank you really from the bottom of my heart for your lovely words, um, very eloquent, uh, you know, reflections on your experience of reading the book. And that was very powerful. I was very moved. So thank you.

[00:49:55] Ross Mc: I say what I see, man, so

[00:49:58] Ross White: And I don't know, you know, I know [00:50:00] that and that's what matters. You know, I know how authentic you are as a person. So whenever you say that, I'm like, Whoa, you know,