Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points.
I'm DJ Sir Daniel.
Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government
as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III.
How you doing, sir Daniel?
Sir Daniel: I am fantastic.
Happy to be, um, doing another episode of Queue Points podcast, dropping
the needle on black music history.
Now, Jay Ray, we've been wanting to, we've been dancing around this
subject for a minute now, and.
We just, We discovered, um, a young man by the name of Calvin Michaels and he is
a musician in his own right and has his own, a very interesting story of his own.
So we were like.
Let's just kill two birds with one stone and just chat with Mike, chat with Calvin
and see if he could help the uncles out the OGs out with any information.
But Jay Ray, let's introduce our guest to the audience.
Jay Ray: Absolutely.
Y'all, we are so excited
to welcome Calvin Michaels to Queue Points.
Calvin, welcome to the show.
How you doing?
Hey.
Calvin Michaels: Hey guys.
Happy.
What?
What's today?
Wednesday?
Happy Wednesday.
Jay Ray: Right.
Sir Daniel: It's a blur, it's
Calvin Michaels: It's, it's a blur.
We all just making it right.
Jay Ray: We're
Sir Daniel: Absolutely.
Calvin, you're, you're, um, you're tuning in, or this is beaming in, I should say,
from chocolate city itself, Washington DC And we, with, as far as music is
concerned, as I just saw something recently, um, that was talking about.
Gogo, I think it's something that came up on my social media feed.
Feed about the power of Gogo and how, of course, you know, Gogo is very
germane to Washington dc but tell us about what influence DC has on
you as a musician and your artistry.
Calvin Michaels: You know, I'll definitely say, especially when it comes to go, go.
You really have to be at a live, go-go to really get it.
Because I'm originally from the other Washington, like Washington State.
Uh, my parents were military, so we bounced and moved around, but I moved
here for college and just never left.
And um, I remember I. When I was first hearing, like, what Go-Go was from
Washington State, I was being told, oh, just think of like the Rich Harrison stuff
that he does with Beyonce and Amarie.
So I was like, oh, okay.
All right.
You know, I'm thinking, okay, I'm gonna good to DC it's gonna
be 21 things on the radio.
And then, um, when I got here, I remember we were at a club and then they
started playing like these different tracks, and at first I couldn't
quite gather what I was experiencing.
It.
It wasn't bad or anything, it was just so.
Different.
Right?
Give it two, three weeks later.
Oh, I was in there and probably knew every word, every song.
I think what it is is Gogo just has, there's this richness in this raw.
Um, essence to it, where it, it really is what I say, a genre
that has never been watered down.
It's still in its original element.
And, and even though it's kind of, um, evolved into different forms, 'cause you
have kind of like your pocket go-go, you have, um, you, you have these different
versions where there's something that's a bit more energetic, some that's
real smooth and, and subtle, but it, there's just, when I say it's just an
unapologetically black genre and it's so representative of not only just.
The Washington DC area, but just culture here, um, where we are collectively
in whatever times are taking place in the United States politically, or it
just, it's a reflection of all of that.
So as far as it correlating to my sound, um, what I've always appreciated about
Gogo is that it doesn't matter how old the song is, none of the songs ever sound
old because it's all live instrumentation.
And I've noticed with music.
Songs that are recorded with live instrumentation
versus samples in, in studio.
Um, never sound old.
So if you take like a brand new heavies never stop, which is from 30 years,
Jay Ray: 30 years, 30 plus
Calvin Michaels: will always sound fresh.
No matter how many times you put it on, that's go-go.
I think, and I, I always tell people, you really won't get it until you
are there and hear it in person.
'cause it's a different kind of energy.
It's something that I don't think you can translate the same way
through speakers, but when you're at one and you just, you just feel it.
And the people that are around, it's, it's, it, it's, it's like even the
church I go to is a go-go church.
Like the song's gotta be, I want some gospel.
Go-go.
You gonna sing it right?
Sing it in
Jay Ray: hear that, right?
Sir Daniel: need that in my veins right now.
A little praise and worship with With a, with a pocket.
Oh, tell
Calvin Michaels: yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's great.
It's awesome.
So,
Jay Ray: Wow.
So to that point, so Calvin, you are a musician.
You do so many things.
True definition, multihyphenate, you're dancing, you're singing, podcasting,
commentary, all of those things, right?
One, um, how did this start for you?
Like what was your entry point into kind of your artistic journey?
I'm really curious about that.
Um, and when you think about your artistry and what you do, like what
do you wanna leave on the world like?
So how did you enter and what do you want people to get from it?
Yeah,
Calvin Michaels: Yeah, so like I was saying, because my parents were military,
we moved a few times and there was a portion when I turned eight when we
moved to Za Italy, which was cool.
However, I. This is the nineties.
This is like 96, 97.
So, um.
With that.
At the time there was no cable on the military base.
You had one channel called a FN to watch and a FN was American Forces Networks.
And that was kind of like, they just took the best of what was on
all the major networks and that was your, your entertainment.
So we didn't really watch TV because um, it just wasn't a whole lot to choose from.
So you were outside, you found creative things to do.
So as far as how, I guess I got in, it probably would've
been through dance first.
This lady had just come from America.
She had Janet's velvet Rope, DVD that she, or not even DVD
I'm, I'm jumping the gun here.
VHS that she recorded off the TV when it aired.
Um, and I saw, and mind you, I hadn't really seen at this point, it's like 98.
I haven't really seen music for two years.
I, I've heard it, you know, some of the big, big songs in the US with
Crossover and find Its Way to Europe.
But a lot of what was happening in America.
I was out of the loop one, I didn't know who was doing what.
My brain was calibrated in 96 so that I saw that concert.
And other than I think Whitney's uh, welcome Home
Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.
Calvin Michaels: Concert from like 91, that was the only
concert I remember ever seeing.
So when I saw that, I.
Hooked.
Let me emulate everything I see.
And then somebody else ended up having Michael Jackson's, um, history one,
one of them shows they, so I used to watch that in VE Rope just all
the time and kind of just started teaching myself to kind of dance.
And then when we moved back to America, we moved to another small
town called Spanaway, Washington.
Not a whole lot to do.
You have nothing to do, but be creative.
So, um, it, I mean, it's kind of, I feel like everything kind
of happened at the same time.
I was also, you know, a kid that grew up in the church,
so you had to be in the choir.
And we went to a storefront church, so everybody participates.
You go, you going to, I was Usher choir and eventually choir director.
And if they do the Easter play and the Christmas program,
you gotta be in that too.
Right?
So now you, you're doing theater.
And then I kind of jumped in the theater in, in middle and high school.
Um, I was on like the actual dance teams in high school, but as far as the YouTube
channel, as far as me getting a presence, um, I used to teach dance on the side.
Um, and so by the time I got to Howard, I had these different contracts with
a bunch of different teams, and then I got into Howard and I needed to move
to dc but I wasn't done with the teams and I'd already signed contracts.
So what ended up happening is.
We came to like an A medium 'cause I could just couldn't keep
flying each weekend to teach.
Um, I would do the lessons on YouTube with an unlisted link and just send
my lessons in the choreography and, you know, do these different teams
and then, you know, I'd fly special occasion when it's competition time.
And so that's how the YouTube channel initially started.
So people sometimes will see my challenge, like, oh, he started in oh five, he old.
I was like, no, I didn't start like the YouTubeing for like
another handful of years.
So it started with that.
After college.
Um, I graduated at the peak of the recession, so there were no jobs.
I went right back home, bored to death, and somehow I just randomly was like,
I think I'm gonna do a comedy show.
And so I randomly went and did a comedy show and it went really well.
And then I did like another and another, and I was like, actually, okay.
So then I started using the YouTube channel to promote my comedy shows.
I would, you know, showcase that.
Um, that's all like 20 10, 20 11.
Fast forward, I. There's this lady named Bethany Storrow, um, who lived
in Vancouver, Washington, which is a town where there's probably
about three of us over there.
And long story short, she claimed that she had been attacked by this black woman who
threw acid on her face, and she was on the news, whole face, green skin burned off.
Everything turned out she made it all up.
Um, and it was because she was trying to get the attention of her
ex-boyfriend, and so she needed a tragedy.
I'm like, well, why you gotta put us in it?
Jay Ray: Right?
Like how we get in it.
Calvin Michaels: Yeah.
So that kind of pulled me into, now I got something I want to say, and
that's when I started actually making the YouTube videos and talking.
So I did that for some years.
Um, then I started just jumping into new projects.
Um, I did a web series called Generation Black, maybe 10 years ago.
We did that.
Um, how we got into the music.
Um, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, um, had already been meaning to build a recording.
Pseudo, I've always done music anyway.
I've always had like a keyboard or something, but I just wanted
to do it more officially.
And then, um, I always remember, speaking of Janet, I had tickets to the Unbreakable
Tour and then that's the one that got postponed 'cause she was pregnant.
And so the money I had from the.
Refund from that tour, plus my tax refund.
I was like, I have enough to build a studio.
And so I just went to Guitar Center, was like, Hey, I wanna build a studio.
What do I need?
And then we kind of played around.
And before you know it, I had an album and then another album.
And in between the two albums came to comedically Hard Headed podcast.
Um, because the YouTube channel was very political and people are like,
you're funny, but you, you scare us.
And I'm like, I'm scaring y'all.
What?
So that was the podcast.
I was like, okay.
So then we launched like, or I'm saying we like there's somebody else here.
But I launched the Comedically Hardheaded podcast, which was
like a storytelling podcast.
So that's all humor.
We ain't cussing nobody out, it's just all good laugh.
Um, so I'm trying to wrap this up 'cause I'll talk in circles.
Um, and then from there it's really kind of just built and, and branded.
We ended up doing a short film 'cause somebody found one of the episodes
and thought it was hilarious.
We just did the film festival circuit last year with one of the episodes from that.
And so that's been that.
But getting to the question about, um, I guess impact of
what legacy I would like to make.
I just wanna live in my purpose, right?
And I think our purpose, we have that North Star, but there are
different ways to get there.
So at this point, I'm taking 15 different routes just to get to that star.
So some days it's music, some days it's comedy, some days it's the podcast.
Other days it's a deep dive and I want to talk about, I don't
know, Motown records or something.
So that's kinda, um, where it's all at.
So I do a little bit of everything, but it's.
You try to find ways to balance it out so you're not, you know, overworked
and, and, and burnt out tired.
Jay Ray: Yeah.
Wow.
Sir Daniel: So Calvin, that's a, that's a lot of living packed into your lifetime.
And
Calvin Michaels: No, I'm just kidding.
Sir Daniel: no, we're, we're older than you, trust me.
Calvin Michaels: right.
Sir Daniel: And that's why, but that's why I find this so fascinating to talk to you
as somebody who is well traveled and who has lived in various parts of the world.
When you come back home and you.
You are an artist yourself.
You sing, you dance.
Um, tell jokes, all the whole nine when you encounter the factory
that is, and it's, it's a factory.
When you encounter the factory that we here in America know as K-Pop.
Jay Ray: Kpop
Sir Daniel: Initially, what is your response?
Initially you're like, 'cause we, okay, so we're not strangers to the boy band
formula here in the States, especially.
Jay Ray: I loved menudo.
Sir Daniel: You know?
Right.
Especially, but then when we came to the late nineties, you know, we had the
98 degrees, the ncs, the Backstreet, all of those boy groups and the girl
groups, um, being manufactured like by one or two people in the industry.
Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.
Sir Daniel: So when you encounter it as somebody looking from your
lens, as somebody who's lived here in the States but also lived abroad,
what is your initial reaction to.
Jay Ray: to the,
Sir Daniel: I guess to the whole American bandstand of it all, like
of of K-Pop and how everything is manufactured, like what was your initial
reaction when you started seeing them?
Calvin Michaels: So the first time I remember seeing any K-pop, anything
would've been the early two thousands.
So living back in Washington state, there's a really large southeast,
um, Asian population and Pacific Islander population really huge.
And so there were additional channels that were tailored to those demographics.
And so I remember one time.
Like my best friend at the time we used, we were music dorks.
We would just sit on the phone and talk music all day to the
point where other people would be like, yeah, y'all are weird.
Why are y'all talking about somebody?
You, you, you naming all the band members from some random tour None of us heard of.
But anyway, so we would, sometimes,
Jay Ray: It does.
It's how
Calvin Michaels: we would sometimes just be on the phone and like,
you, you know, I'm sure y'all did this too back in the day.
Like you and your friend would watch the same show on tv and so we were like
flipping channels one day and it, it ended up on one of these like local access.
Asian channels and they had a segment where they played music videos.
This is about oh 3 0 4.
And so I remember we were watching, and I remember the first video I saw, it was by
this artist named Lexi, I think it's LEXY.
And she had a song called Girls.
And when I looked at her, I was like, I. This looks so much like
Janet's all night, don't stop video.
Like similar style, similar lighting.
And I was like, okay.
Interesting.
And then like the next video that played was this, this lady named like Lehi Roy.
And she had this song called One 10 Minute and she has the same jersey
dress that Maya has on in the um, best of Me Remix video with Jay-Z.
I was like, what's going on here?
We, and and we, we were intrigued though.
I'm not gonna lie.
Like, it was interesting 'cause it's like.
We're only teenagers, but you could still tell like, okay, this is
really like a, an emulation here.
And so I don't remember the name of the show, but it came on once
a week and we used to just sit and watch to see all these videos
and every video that came out.
It was interesting because it was almost like the imaging they had was
maybe a few years behind what we were doing at the moment, production wise.
I take that back, the imaging was matching up, but the
production was a few years behind.
It sounded like, you know, maybe 2000, not 2004, 2005 ish.
And um, so we were just like, okay.
Um, now I will say, um, in comparison to the now, I think what they were
doing then was a bit more, um.
Well-rounded than now.
I think right now you really do see the evidence of that kind of factory,
that kind of just throw it all out there because I, I felt like those
artists that were out in those earlier years that, I think there's one like
the, there was I think a guy named bi.
There was, um.
I'm skipping so many people, uh, I'm forgetting these names, but they all
had their own kind of personalities.
What I'm noticing about this current era is I can't tell who's who, and that's
not to sound like ignorant, but as far as just the distinction between their
sound, even the imaging and their music videos, the, the music production, the
choreography, it's like everybody has exactly the same package presentation.
I mean, it, it's cool visually, I guess.
Um, but it's not.
To me, it just feels too calculated and too orchestrated
and too mechanical I think.
And, and that's, maybe that's just 'cause I'm a little older
than the target audience.
And I do remember when K-POP was not a thing in the United States.
Um, to the extent that it is now, something has just always felt
off and I just always think to.
I wanna say this is the 2018 or 2019 Billboard Music Awards and New Edition
and new Kids on the Block had a joint performance, and I remember them
panning to BTS, you know, the big boy band that was really, really big.
And you know, you've seen their videos, they just da da da.
But what, what's so interesting is when they were doing Bobby's, um, every
little step I take in the segment, I noticed BTS was dancing, but they
weren't on the rhythm to the song.
And I was like, wait a minute.
Now y'all can do all this choreography and spit on your head, but y'all
can't catch the two and the four, I was so confused and then I realized,
well that's because they're, this is not what they're rooted in.
This is something, there's a conversation of skilled verse trained.
Right?
And so I was like.
This makes sense.
This is why like, yeah, they can emulate, but you can tell that a lot of times it's
not really what they're rooted in now.
It's made a lot of money.
It's, I mean, these are acts that are selling out stadiums in the
US at this point now, but, um, I think there's a specific demographic
that appreciates it and, you know, that they're able to market to.
But I think there's an entire another segment that is
just never gonna be into it.
And that's kind of where I think a lot of, I'll throw myself in there to be honest.
Um.
It's cool.
It's just, it's not my bread and butter to, to run behind.
Uh, and I just, I, I don't think they have that full identity of
what they want to be artistically.
It's, it's more so the marketing and the branding they have that
mastered, but the authenticity and the artistry, I don't think is there,
which is why you see so many these acts just blow up and then disappear.
and what makes it even crazier now that I think back at it.
One of the things I remember when we saw those early versions, and mind
you, K-pop was already out by the time I discovered it, it had been
been a thing since about the mid nineties, and I'm 10 years late, right?
I, I specifically remember that Lehigh Roy, just one 10 minute
video, y'all please go watch that when you get a chance.
But there's a scene where.
They're riding with the top down and I guess, what was the Korean hood?
And then they pan to all the Korean dudes playing basketball.
And we were like, what?
Jay Ray: now.
Wait a minute now.
Now wait a minute.
Calvin Michaels: and the, this one we were still wearing the va, it was
like, it was like 20 Allen Iversons in the video, but they were just Korean.
I said, this is.
Uh, you just saw, you could tell that, okay, they're trying
to piece a certain image here.
'cause, 'cause what part of Korea is this?
Because, I mean, you would've, the, the way that it was
presented was like, oh, okay.
So y'all in Brooklyn.
Really?
Okay.
All right.
Okay.
So it, it, it's, um, and, and I, I, I get it because again, black
music influences everybody and our music is really huge there.
You know, some of our artists.
Are huge in places like Japan and Korea and Singapore.
So it's, it's no secret that the influence is there, but I, it goes back to what
I was saying about the idea of Rooted.
So even if you're talking Korean music or, or K-pop, you know, their bread
and butter before K-pop blew up was Korean folk, which is so left field
from what is currently out there.
So again, it's almost like.
Foundation was never there, but they built their foundation off of
what was happening in the US in the eighties and the nineties, and so
that's where their foundation stops.
But if you're talking about like an r and b artist in the United States,
even an RB artist, they may be born in 2000 even, you know, their, their, um,
foundation doesn't stop in the eighties because you know what, even though, you
know, on Sundays if they had to go to grandma's house, grandma was playing
seventies in the sixties or wherever.
And so there's still that element of.
You know, certain elements of sound being rooted or even if they were a
family that went to church, you know, those same music theory lessons that
we indirectly get if you grew up in a church have never really changed.
And the only difference is now they got a guitar and it's a little bit more
praise and worship ish versus, um, maybe what we grew up on with the choirs.
But, um, there's still that essence of, of, of.
That, that foundation that's still there.
And I don't think the K-pop acts really have that.
And all they can do is emulate.
And I think this is why you're seeing so many cycle in and cycle out because
just 10 years ago, the the two one group that was the two NE and the
number one, or maybe they're called 21 with, with a massive, massive
act like they, they were before
Jay Ray: even heard.
That's crazy.
'cause I never even
Calvin Michaels: They were huge and yeah, they were ma and I and some of it was,
I used to work with kids, so they're a bit more on the internet than I am,
so they were finding everything, but I remember they were massive at a point.
And then, um, it's like they just fell off the face of the earth.
Um, I'm like, where'd they go?
And now there's kinda like black pink, which is one that's kind of coddling here.
They've done Coachella.
Um, and, and there's some acts, and I'm really not trying
to whack any of these acts.
Uh, it is just, um.
It.
It's, I just, I think it's a generational thing.
I think if you're of a certain age, you're just never gonna be 100% into it.
There will be the anomalies, but overall, I just think if you were rooted in an
era where, you know, Michael, prince, Whitney, Janet, Mariah, were on your tv,
I'll even throw Madonna in there, or your tv, it's really hard to be impressed by.
Yeah.
You know, that's just where I'm at.
Sir Daniel: So that, so that kind of, it kind of, um, quells
the kind of the fire that I had.
Jay Ray: had
Sir Daniel: Initially when we had the initial conversation, it kind of,
this, kind of dulls that a little bit.
It's like, oh, okay.
They're not, they're really all, uh, it's really about consumption and
then just regurgitating what you've consumed because like you said, I,
there's been years I've seen this guy who does nothing but new Jack swing
choreography and he dances to, I think.
Any new Jack swing song that you could ever think of that
was made between 87 and 95.
He's danced to it and they, they specifically love that particular era.
There's, they have this thing for new jack swing, but then I also think
about how we specifically black people are viewed in different cultures
and as your world traveler, um.
Is it, is, is this, is this modern black face?
it, is there, is there like a, a teaspoon of racism in there?
Because we've all seen the pictures of, you know, the, the kids and it's, it's,
it's definitely tied to youth culture.
The kids that are getting, you know, their hair twisted into Bantu knots and, and
trying to create waves out of their hair.
And as you said, the fashions are very.
Early two thousands with the, you know, the, the, the throwbacks and the, the
throwback skirts and all that other stuff, and they're getting their hair, corn,
rowed and all these kinds of things.
So, but is there an actual, and you can't speak for them, but as somebody
who's traveled and has experienced different cultures as a black person
presenting in this world, is it rooted in.
Jay Ray: in
Sir Daniel: And is it rooted in appropriation?
Is it making fun of, is it adoration?
How?
How do you feel about it?
Calvin Michaels: I always say, just imagine you travel there and you walk
into a room and you see 15 people with the outfits and the hair and the jewelry
staring at you like you're crazy.
Um, how do you feel in that moment?
Do you feel like I. You know, I, I think it's a combination
of all of it, to be honest.
I, I really do believe that that community adores what we do.
I mean, 'cause honestly, I think RB hip hop, new Jack swing, for a lot of them
that was their introduction to what you would call like Western style music
as opposed to like the Korean folk.
So it's, you know, that's their introduction to certain things.
And I think culturally we've always been emulated, but I think
where there's a gray area is.
There is still that element of racism that is there and some of these fan bases are.
Crazy.
I, I just see it on social media because a lot of them don't want to
acknowledge that the entire origin and influence of new, uh, uh, of K-pop comes
from what black artists were doing.
That's the main reason why in my new Jack swing deep dive, I opened with
that, which I got cussed out for.
'cause the Teddy Riley disciples didn't know where I was going
with, and I'm like, just keep
Jay Ray: Just keep why
Calvin Michaels: They like, what?
You starting in Korea for Teddy?
I was like, just, just, just it.
I summed it up in four minutes, just gimme four minutes to get it out.
Like, oh man, they were whacking me.
I'm like, y'all,
Jay Ray: are like, just keep going.
Like, we were impressed.
That's how we got here.
We're like, no, no, no.
Yes, Calvin Michaels.
Calvin Michaels: were killing me.
Let me turn this light on.
Let's get
Jay Ray: Okay.
Rutabaga.
Calvin Michaels: Okay.
Yeah, the sun's trying to set on here.
But anyway, so, um, yeah.
And so I think, um, I see some element of like.
To me, there's some element of racism because there, there's
a lot of anti-blackness in that region of the world as well.
Right.
Um, and, and even when it comes to certain things like the N word, some
of 'em have no problem using it.
And, and, and some of it is, there's not a full understanding of the blacklight
in the United States, but some do understand it and just don't care.
Um, and so I think.
It's a weird space because also we now have black American producers
that are also making their sounds.
So you have people like Sean Garrett and, and Teddy Riley who, you know,
give some of them their hits too.
And I get it.
There's money to be made.
And I think with K-Pop, for me, I see it as, as a brand and a business model
more so than like a, a specific genre of music that's rooted in something.
If you notice the, the rollouts, it's, it's centered all in branding.
And how can we get the most commercial gain, um.
And I think that stems from like what you brought up earlier when
we talked about the boy bands.
One of the things that was interesting about living in Italy is, you know,
we got the Backstreet Boys in NSYNC early, um, Backstreet Boys was out,
I don't wanna say by the time I got to Italy, they were already a
thing overseas, um, NSYNC as well.
And so I remember moving back to the US in 99 and now N Sync
is promoting, like tearing up my heart and I'm like, this was.
Two years ago, y'all just now getting this right.
Um, because they were, some of the acts that actually were marketed specifically
in Germany blew up in Germany.
Germany is only a country and a half away from Italy.
You just go through Switzerland and then we right there.
Um, and so that model of set them up in Europe.
Model them after Boys to Men, model them after New Edition.
Teach them how to dance.
Give them a little bit of extra swag.
You know, you're gonna get Chris from nsync, who at the
time, remember he used to
Jay Ray: He used to have the braids too.
Yep.
Calvin Michaels: Had them braids.
Put 'em out there and you get like an AJ from Backstreet Boys who has, he doesn't
have an ambiguous look, but you can tell he got something else in the bloodline.
So kind of make him look like he's a little bit more spicy than usual,
and then put them out there and.
Now they got some eight counts down and now we can package them and
give them to the United States.
Like, I think that's almost where the difference is with the boy bands
versus like the Spice Girls who I think the Spice Girls kind of stayed
in a, a super bubblegum pop realm.
But I think the boy bands, there was an effort to really model them after what
the RB groups were doing at the time.
Like Spice Girls, I think were still, you know, they were still
a great group, but I, I didn't see them marketed as, you know.
Put them in a room and make them do an in Vogue and TLC doing, I think
Spice Girls somehow were able to kind of carve their own lane, even
though the influencers are there.
I never saw them as carbon copies of, uh, and I'm, I'm not saying that
about nsync, Backstreet Boys, but you, I, I never saw them as, um, they
were still factory, a factory group.
They were assembled clearly, but I think it, there was a different, um,
origin behind their creation, uh, where you have Lou Pearlman who knew
exactly what he was doing when he.
And even the ties to, um, ah, the guy
Jay Ray: Maurice
Calvin Michaels: Maur Starr did the connection with him and Lou
promo, like so there was an effort.
Yeah.
So, um.
I think when you jump back to the K-pop conversation, it's the same thing.
But the only difference is now we just also this, the language barrier.
'cause a lot of these artists don't speak English either they sing in
English, they, they don't speak, or they have a very limited scope.
Or sometimes you'll see these groups that win the award, they'll have the,
the member that speaks it a little bit better that will do all the talking.
And then it's interesting 'cause then when you listen to the lyrics and
they're talking about, I'm so bad.
I'm so hood.
Hood.
Like where?
Jay Ray: who, who and how.
Right?
You're just singing things.
You know what this is bringing up for me and ooh, this is, this makes me mad.
Um, but.
We do this every time.
It is the, um, incessant commercialization of our culture.
Like we saw this in the late eighties where all of a sudden all
the black producers was producing on all these white groups, right?
And given them bops, right?
We got so many bops in the new Jack swing era
Calvin Michaels: Because Jane Child.
Jay Ray: Baby
Calvin Michaels: Don't wanna fall in love.
Jay Ray: day.
We talk about that is a jam.
Tara Kemps just wanna hold you tight all day.
These are jams, right?
But.
It is just this, this, this connection to commercialization that will have
some of us being like, you know what?
No, they, I can absolutely have my song on this group, right?
This group who has no connection to your history, no real interest in understanding
what it means to be rooted in it.
Singing over your stuff and that it's, it's, it's business 1 0 1.
It's music industry 1 0 1.
I get it, but it.
It happens all the time, and I still get mad because it waters everything down.
And what happens is then we have to do that so that then we can
then sell it back to our folks.
So these folks took our thing.
Made it this, then we have to do that.
Right?
Put our stank back on it, give it back.
But of course we're gonna do it differently.
'cause we done put our stank on it.
They're gonna be like, okay, that now.
Okay.
Do what they're doing.
And then it's like this cycle and I'm just like, just, I want it to stop.
Stop giving these people your, you know what, I ain't getting in nobody's pockets.
If you gonna sell your stuff, do your thing.
But it makes me mad.
Jay Ra.
Be mad.
Calvin Michaels: Yeah, I, I think it's a combination of that.
I also do think some of it is the labels as well,
Jay Ray: Of
Calvin Michaels: they, and, and I think for producers that are trying
to get on, I. They want the placement.
So, um, especially the ones that are hungry and that they, they
just need that foot in the door.
It's, you know, it's, it's music business.
Unfortunately that's, that's the business part, but I, I do think that
is one of the reasons why r and b music commercially is where it's at
now because of 20 years of that, where especially our pop artists went a whole
lot more r and b rooted urban influence.
I don't like the word urban, but that's what they call us.
Um.
Once we got to the late nineties, 'cause I, I always tell people, they always
think I'm crazy, but when Britney Spears came out, um, I thought she was black
because I didn't see the music video.
Jay Ray: hit me baby one more time.
Was a whole
Calvin Michaels: it came on the radio.
On this, the Italian station was called Disco Rio.
And like I said, we didn't have access to music videos.
There was no MTV or nothing.
And so if you're thinking about white girls and pop pre 96, let's just say
about 90 to 96, the only main pop.
That was a woman that was really doing it was Madonna.
And even then she was at a slowdown at that point, temporarily, and she
gave us bedtime stories and erotica.
So she was kind of in a different realm.
But when you thought of white women in music, you know, you, it is kind
of like a Leanne Rimes kind of sound.
There wasn't really this quote, I guess whatever group Fergie was in that when
they tried so hard and it, it never grew
Sir Daniel: Oh, wild, wild Orchid,
Calvin Michaels: wild, wild or, and
Jay Ray: That's called
Sir Daniel: all these crazy runs.
Jay Ray: right?
Calvin Michaels: it.
Not to whack them, but no, these folks like, okay, y'all, y'all got a lot.
But when it came to white girls, there was no association with like
super funky swagged out music.
Not since probably Tina Marie, and she was always more r and
b rooted and was never really
Jay Ray: She was doing black music, period.
Calvin Michaels: she passed white people didn't know who she was.
So.
Um, so when Baby One More Time came on, I was like, when is this?
And so I remember getting Back to America and
Jay Ray: And you saw her
Calvin Michaels: was out.
Yeah, sometimes was out.
And I'm like, I think this is that one girl.
But remember the now music compilations,
Jay Ray: Uhhuh.
Now that's
Calvin Michaels: when I got to America it was now two and Baby one more
Time was in the now Too commercial.
And that's when I first saw her and I saw this white girl with pictures.
I was like, what is going on here?
Like.
Because, and then I was in denial and I remember seeing her album cover
and you know, she has the tan, so I
Jay Ray: Yes.
Calvin Michaels: She could be like a a, a Mariah kind of,
Jay Ray: big store.
Calvin Michaels: I was trying so hard for her to be black.
Jay Ray: You
Calvin Michaels: I was like, I know she, she gotta, there's no way.
She's what I think she is.
Right.
Um, and so, yeah, but I say all that to say.
You know, when even when you talk about those pop acts, look at how much
more r and b rooted they became, um, in the later years, like Backstreet
Boys started getting used songs like the Call with the Neptunes remix.
Christina went dirty and she had the song with Lil Kim and, uh, NSY had
gone and which was on 1 0 6 and park all day and, and, and girlfriend.
And then that question becomes, well, where did the R and BX go?
Because now the labels are like, well.
We could, you know, push Tamia, but we got Christina that can do this.
Sir Daniel: So you were absolutely right.
Um, I, listen, I think Calvin is like, um, Calvin is definitely
part of the Queue Points.
Jay Ray: Yes,
Sir Daniel: Key points, um, family.
There's a fa there's a huge resemblance here in what we've
been discovering and talking about on our, our, um, show as well.
And just, I don't know, I think the conversation then, or it's not even a
conversation for us, but for the general public hearing in the United States, but.
As people who live in this country, who are, who are black men, who are music,
who consume music, you know, we just have these questions and I'm grateful to
have somebody with another perspective to come by and kind of like, well, this is
what, and kind of teach us what happens.
So I appreciate you, Calvin, for joining us on this episode and
kind of enlightening us as to what happens because again, in all of our
discussions and all of our discovery.
Capitalism is really what's at work here.
You have artistry and you have capitalism, and therein the
two shall meet or not meet.
You know, artistry and capitalism tends to win out over everything.
Cash rules, everything.
Around us, basically around.
And so before we wrap up, Calvin, do you have any final words or please let
our audience know about your channel and how they can find you so that
they can be in tune for your next deep dive conversations around the
early two thousands as you alluded to.
Jay Ray: Yeah.
And also real quick, Calvin too, you have, you got, you released two
records recently, so, uh, before tomorrow and after yesterday.
Definitely let our folks know about your music too, where they can tune into you.
Calvin Michaels: Yeah, look.
After that I spent 30 minutes whacking all these artists.
Now I gotta promote my stuff.
Yeah, check me out y'all.
They about this big old hater on here.
But, um, I was also gonna say too, to your point with the capitalism, that
was the one part I forgot to add in with K-Pop is that a lot of the acts
that we see commercially, they've been in these almost k-pop bootcamps
since they were young teenagers where it, it is pretty much for years.
They, they go away and they go into these extensive dance
courses, these extensive singing.
Trainings and everything else like that.
Uh, I only made that face 'cause by the time I hear them, everything
is going through so much EQ and never, you don't know what their
Jay Ray: You don't know
Calvin Michaels: but um, yeah, there's no distinction.
But yeah, they, they spend
Sir Daniel: too.
Calvin Michaels: These crazy contracts, they don't really make a lot of money.
It's making everybody else money.
And so, um, yeah, they, they do all that and it's, it's centered, again,
around the conversation of branding and commercialism, making you the
most perfect polished act that can be presented globally when it's
time for you to make your arrival.
So there's that.
But um, yeah, as far as, um.
I forgot where I was going with this.
Oh, my stuff.
Yeah.
You can check out my website, Calvin michaels.com.
That has everything, everything from my music to my podcast, YouTube channel.
I have a book club.
Um, whatever's happening with my film projects, uh, as far as my
music, uh, I released my third and my fourth album a few months
back, which again, before tomorrow.
After yesterday.
It was supposed to be one album, but I realized the songs weren't
complimenting, and now I was like, these belong on two separate projects.
Jay Ray: Yeah, because one is like the slow, like more of the the love
slow jam, and one is the uptempo.
Yeah,
Calvin Michaels: Other one and yeah, you wanna go spin in your head.
That's the other one.
So, uh, yeah.
And yeah, all my stuff is self-produced and, you know, I sit right in my
living room, pissed off my neighbors cranking all night, all night, all day.
They got, you gotta hear, you make a few attempts for certain notes that you're
trying to see if you still have or not.
Um, and so yeah, all of that's there.
Um, I also, my end goal is more so to make music for other artists.
I like.
Making my own, but I really would like to start pushing in that direction and
getting placements with other artists.
So that's kind of my bailiwick.
And so yeah, the albums are out.
I also have two other albums, symphonic Euphoria and the Hardcover.
Um, one's from 2017.
One's from 2019.
I took like a five year break before I came back out musically.
So, um, yeah, so just check it out if you're into it, if you're not.
Okay.
Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.
Well, there's so many entry points and thank you so much.
Once again, I want to echo everything.
Uh, sir Daniel said like, you're definitely one of those folks.
True multihyphenate, right?
Like there are so many entry points where folks can just grab you If they
want the commentary, which y'all should check out, definitely go check out.
Calvin's YouTube channel, you get a lot.
So you get the music, but you also get the commentary.
But then there's all these other things.
Like I said, I had the opportunity to listen to the podcast.
So you get like the storytelling, the comedy, um, there's of course
the music, all of these pieces.
So you give the folks, there's a way.
For folks to engage with.
Calvin Michaels the brand, and you see this knowledge that Calvin is dropping.
So just thank you so much for
Calvin Michaels: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Jay Ray: You're very, very welcome.
And so for all of you that are tuning in, thank you all so much
for tuning into this episode.
If you can see our faces and hear our voices subscribe wherever you are.
Make sure that you go over to Calvin Michaels and subscribe
to Calvin Michaels as well.
You can visit the Queue Points website@Queue Points.com or you can
see the archive of all of our episodes.
Uh, you can also visit our, uh, magazine Queue Points mag where you
can check out some additional content, um, that supplements some of the shows
or, uh, compliment some of the shows.
So definitely check that out and definitely shop our store
too@store.Queue Points.com.
We appreciate y'all, we love y'all.
Sir Daniel: Absolutely another one.
Jay Ray, what do I always say at the end of every episode in
this life, you have a choice.
You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play.
I'm DJ Serani.
Jay Ray: My name is Jay Ray, y'all.
That's Calvin Michaels
Sir Daniel: And this has been Queue Points podcast, dropping
the needle on black music history.
We'll see you on the next go round.
Peace.
Jay Ray: Peace y'all.