Probably halfway through, we're gonna invite some other voices

to get your thoughts and ideas around this idea of wayfinding,

which we're gonna set up now.

So who would like to kick us off with, uh, some thoughts and

ideas on this idea of wayfinding?

ooh.

I love, I love the word for wayfinding.

Uh, I think if I'm, if I can recall the very first time that I've used

that term, I was in university, and at that time I was actually

looking for a word that matches with pathfinders and wayfinding, um, felt.

So, yeah, I would say felt so right in the body.

Then Pathfinder and, um, and a couple of years ago, I think it was

in 2022, I even wrote a poem about wayfinding in the, in the edges.

so for me, I have this very, I would say.

Close relationship with the term itself of way finding.

Um, and I know for myself that for most of my life, that has been,

uh, uh, a part of the journey of like how, how to find my way.

And given that I am someone who, uh, well, I would say sees, sees things

differently, feels things differently, being highly sensitive to myself.

Um, the way finding was also a, I would say a skill that has been

developed through the years, um, to understand, you know, how does

it really mean to, to show up?

How does it really mean to, traverse life in a way that is, uh, congruent

with how I want to show up.

Yeah, I dunno if I've used this or kind of used this term before, but

now the more I read into it and the more I think about it, I think it

actually does capture, um, I suppose my belief in how we find our path really.

And if I look back at my career or journey over the last 20 or so

years, or 25 years or 30 years, um, it really is about not really

knowing what the destination is.

And I think, for a long time I. That always feels scary, and actually you

don't have a story to tell people.

So therefore, the term way finding makes it feel like you should have at

least some idea of where you're going.

But for me, it was always just knowing the next step, um, and leaning into

this idea of having some compass.

Uh, and for me it was more an internal compass of what

I felt was the next step.

But over the years I've learned that actually having guides, having some

kind of direction of travel, having some kind of map, and fellow travelers

too, has really helped me to navigate in a way that feels more like Lana

said, congruent with how I wanna live and the way I wanna move forward.

so I, I had an exchange with a, a friend of ours, Ben Johnson.

Uh, he's been on our Vision 2020 program.

Tribe one.

he used to run a, a quite a, um.

A successful agency, design agency, um, who runs a, uh, PO, his own

podcast called Peripheral Thinking.

And, um, he was sharing some ideas around wayfinding, which reminded

me or sort of help me sense into how I think about Wayfind or

the, this idea of Wayfind is this kind of pioneering adventurers.

And he shared with this idea of like the people who would cross the oceans

in those early days without any kind of instruments in these little canoes.

And they would basically sense, look at the stars, sense what the water's

like, just use all these techniques that didn't, they didn't have a map,

they didn't know where they were going.

They were just exploring this massive expansive water, which scary as hell.

It's like, oh my God.

The, the thought of crossing the Atlantic or the Pacific, even without.

A GPS and some mobile phone or communication mechanism

to call home is bloody scary.

and at the same time, if I think about it, you know,

that is a metaphor for life.

Uh, we feel like school and work, and there's the various other stories and

beliefs have kind of presented life as a very specific linear journey, uh, which

is very comforting and very, feels very, uh, safe, uh, for some people at least.

But yeah, if you, if you zoom out, and think about things in a, in a, you

know, what are we actually here for?

There's a lot more possibility and lots of unknowns and there's so

many things you could do other than the follow the well-trodden path.

So.

For, for me, way finding is both a very uncomfortable,

real way of looking at life.

and also there's a sense of excitement and adventure around it.

then it's like, how do you, how do you, I'm not saying get comfortable

with it because I don't think it should be comfortable, but how can

you work with that idea and how do you accept that, particularly when you're

surrounded by people who say, you know, this is how you should live life.

This is what you should do.

This is how we work together.

This is how you work.

This is what success means.

How do you, how do you live according to another, a way finding way?

Which I guess, I dunno about you guys, but when I've been in

environments where everyone's in a more certain world, even if it's a.

Uh, some ways a made up story about certainty.

Um, then it can be uncomfortable because you feel like the odd one out.

You feel like the misfit or the the rebel because you wanna pursue

new adventures and pastures, but actually people around you are

like, why would you wanna do that?

Or, you know, what's the outcome?

Or why would you wanna leave that job?

Or, leave the safety of something that's much more certain.

and I'd like to speak about a part of this way finding that might not, I

would say be mainstream language, and that is the grief around wayfinding.

um, so for me personally, whenever I tune into myself of, okay, what's the

truth that I would like to uphold?

What, um, where does my agency sit?

Um, how would I want to live my legacy?

And.

What's the, you know, what's the next steps for me?

And I'm faced with realities of, of how other people are doing it.

Like what you said, Carlos.

So it's like, this might not be how other people are making

choices in their lives, or, um, might even be pursuing careers.

And there is grief there that I hold for myself in terms of, ooh, why can't

I not, you know, take that path, like how they seem to have taken the path,

which seems also, um, you know, from, you know, from my side of course.

Um, which seems to be easier because the way finding is is not, you know,

like what you said, it's not a linear path and it's not an easy path as well.

Um, so in my eyes, whenever I think of how, you know, friends of mine

and how they've built their lives, they've built their careers There

is grief that I feel for myself of, ooh, what, what, why is this

important for me in the first place?

And, what, what is that grief touching?

And what I connected it with is that, you know, like what you've already

mentioned, Lawrence, around, the image of how people think in terms of

what success would look like or, you know, how you have to live your life.

So there's really a, a narrative around, ooh, by this time, at this

age, you know, with what you did in, you know, in school, in university,

you should be like this by now.

Hmm.

And that's the narrative that I, you know, that I, for myself was like,

Ooh, that is where it's touching me.

That it's touching on the narratives of what people, um, expected from me.

It, of what I, you know, expected from myself, and.

It's also touching on the narratives around, you know, if I'm trying to find

my way, how can then I get there, you know, it's like what are my signals?

What are my signposts?

and then that's also where the curiosity and the creativity comes in, right?

Of who, who can I connect with to support that?

Yeah, I was talking about this too.

So Carl Parton, you both know, he may be in the chat.

I'm not sure.

Um, car's been a member of the community about 10 years, and we're actually

starting a podcast together about this idea of a turning 50, but also about.

Two different lives.

Like Carl turned 50, he had expectations of where he might

be at this point of his life.

Um, I have kids, he doesn't, I have a house, you know, he rents, he doesn't

have a partner or I have a wife.

So this kind of external metric of like, I thought I would be

here at this point in my life.

Not to say the other side is all rosy or anything, but just this, like

you said, expectation of what maybe others thought I'd I've achieved

by now or I might have thought of I'd have achieved myself by now.

so there are people out there and I think Betty was mentioning

something around, uh, if I understood her correctly, way finding is,

is the way she loves to live, it seems, is isn't her experience to

feel uncomfortable with it and.

Apologies, Betty.

If, if I'm making assumptions here.

I think of artists, I think of Mavericks, I think of people who

aren't ne, who don't conform to mainstream ways of thinking, uh,

about how you live, uh, as well as add value in Edward Comm to World.

And, and they're, they're kind of outliers.

You know, those, those outliers that seem to do things

differently that are, you know, you will spot them a mile away.

They stand out in the crowd and because of that, there's a sense

of isolation potentially for them.

You know, you talk about, loss, of belonging, maybe.

But they love that space.

I feel like I live on the edge of acceptable.

It's like, on one hand, you know, I like Lawrence, you know,

house, kids, family, you know.

Having to fit into the traditional way of living and kids go to school,

they're not, they're not homeschooled.

They're, they wear uniforms and blazers and all of this stuff.

And at the same, I don't prescribe to this way of, I don't, I'm not

full fully endorsing this way of living in terms of like, this is

the best way, this is how it works.

I just found myself there.

and wishing for more, or wishing for something different.

So there's this, I think there's this thing about, when I think about

way finding as well, I think of the pioneers who are, I'm just, I'm gonna

leave this safe space, but just pushing out the edges of what's possible.

And I am looking into the abyss.

I'm looking at stuff that no one's done before, or very few

people I know have done before.

And I'm trying to explore what that means.

And at the same time, I'm not so far out there because I don't

have, I'm not that kind of person.

I'm not so crazy and maverick that I can, I feel able to do that.

And maybe that's part of the journey that we're all on to feel

like we can pull away completely.

But at the same time, there's something around when you are, when you're doing

something quite uncertain personally for me, uh, and you're not sure where it's

going and you're not sure if it's the right thing, it can be really lonely.

So how do you, how do you hold yourself in that space?

Hmm.

And as human beings who, who have evolved from a sense

of community or belonging, 'cause that's how we survived.

How do we honor our difference while the same, stay away at the same

time feel connected so that we can do the things that are different.

Yeah.

What makes me think of our early days when I. We didn't

have a plan with the company.

Certainly, certainly not with the Happy Startup School, but probably not even

with our last company before that.

Um, yeah, I, I, I kind of, uh, tie into what Betty says, really, like

I find things being too certain or too straight line, actually scary.

So like I actually get fearful of, staying the same versus change.

So it's interesting and again, there's, there's a balance to that 'cause

it's not like completely irrational.

It's not like the, pioneer going off to the sell new seas.

there's a kind of calculated risk there, I suppose.

And maybe it's that sense of like, I'll be okay and I trust myself and I trust

that whether it's intuition or just, um, feeling of, of a direction is, is right.

And even if it's wrong, you know, if there is a right and wrong.

But that feeling of like, I need to trust how I'm feeling now and that

where I'm at now needs to change.

I, I, I so resonate with the component of trust in the way finding, uh,

trusting ourselves, trusting in the wisdom of our bodies, and

trusting in the wisdom of who we are surrounding ourselves with, right?

So it's not just about only us, but also the community surrounding us.

And I, I, and, and I guess this is where the way finding can be difficult

when, um, that element of trust is not easily there or that element of

trust is easy to find for yourself, but might not be easy to find when it

comes to who you're surrounded with or the community that you're part of.

Which is also why, for me, very big, I would say very big shift that

I did 10 years ago when I had the first breast cancer, um, journey was

who, who do I surround myself with?

You know, who do I connect with The, the circles of relationships that I

invest time and energy and attention on.

Um, because that for me has been a crucial part of rebuilding that trust,

um, for myself and for others, so that it's easier to, um, step into

the space of way finding and not be, I would say, swept by what was the

dominant narrative of, oh, you just have to, you know, pursue this like

this and then life will be like this.

I'm guessing, took some bold, um, decisions.

Right.

In terms of, I don't know if there's people you let go of

or projects or communities or whatever, like commitments that you

had that you decide are no longer gonna serve you going forward.

Oh, definitely.

There's a lot of filtering, there's a lot of recalibrating

that had to happen because of that.

So there's a couple of things.

I'm, I'm, I was sidetracked a bit by what Zoe shared about she's always

walked her own path and it's been really hard, especially because of the shaming.

But the funny thing is, later on, those that shamed then

wanted to do the same thing.

Uh, and I, I kind, that resonated for me because myself and Lawrence,

when we started this stuff, some of our friends was like, what?

This, what is this thing?

You crazy?

They,

they still say that now, to be fair, I wouldn't say anything's changed.

No.

Well, I don't know Lawrence.

'cause I think some of them are coming around.

Well, we have people interested in, you know, they actually say,

actually this is good stuff.

This is stuff we need to think about.

This is stuff that while there's the tongue in cheek banter, deep

down, people have come round say, I understand why you're doing what you're

doing, and I get it and I want it.

so Maybe there's a, a, a bit of a story or a narrative.

You can say that you carve your own path.

As long as it's coming from a place of you believe in this,

then somehow other believers will find you and the, you know, while

they're the first, they'll hun you.

Then they'll go, wow, maybe I should do something like this myself.

and yeah.

And then this is for me, this thing about, because when there's so many

opportunities available, you know, if you do go out into the wilderness and

the any direction you can go, how, how do you create a sense of discernment

around which opportunities to pursue?

Because, you know, one of the challenges with changing things up is either

the change is so massive you don't do anything, or there's too many options

to choose from that you don't do anything because it's like, and so.

You know, Lawrence, you spoke to, just feeling into or sensing

what's needed for some people, that's a whole new way of living.

To, to, to trust a gut, trust, a feeling.

Because maybe in the past, and I'm sort of touching onto maybe a little bit of

what Annie was talking about in terms of childhood, sometimes we, we've made

and mistrust our feelings or we've been shamed because of the way we expressed

ourselves in terms of our feelings.

And so we've stopped trusting those things.

I was thinking about this as you were talking, the idea of how

powerful it is to have a story.

Because I think if we dunno where we're going necessarily, and we

don't necessarily know the outcome or even all the steps, um, or

even how we'll get there, then.

Really having a story to tell, I think is one of the biggest struggles.

Like if you don't have a story of why you might wanna go and do this

thing or leave this thing, then others will start to question it.

And I think when we started out with Happy Startup School, it's maybe

why we tripped up a lot when we're trying to explain it to friends.

And like we didn't have the, the clear story to tell them that they

understood we couldn't meet them when they, where they were at.

And maybe over the years, our stories got clearer as our workers evolved.

so I guess that's one, one of the reasons we help people on the program

with understanding their story in some ways, understanding their backstory

first, but then understanding how that backstory informs what their next

story is and that the story can change.

But the story gives you a container, I think, to, to play

within that doesn't necessarily tie you to one One destination.

I am hearing that in this process of wayfinding, how crucial it is to unlearn

a lot of things, you know, unlearn that you know, what you shared, Carlos, of

the mistrust that we've built in, um, because of our previous experiences,

especially our experiences as children.

The unlearning of, you know, the need for control is also something that's

very palpable, especially in the chat.

We've, you know, we've been reading through around control

and how that illusion of control has been a big part of our lives.

And another thing that for myself, what I've unlearn in this process

of wayfinding is inviting plurality.

In, in how I view things, in how I, uh, receive information.

So, um, a very good example is just even that, you know, that language of, oh,

what, what are the possible futures?

Like I say, it's not a singular future, but there's so, such a multiplicity

of futures and that allows me to really sink into the, huh, okay.

No matter what I decide, you know, would at, at that point of decision would

still be okay because there's so much possibilities that are already there.

So for me, unlearning that, that, that linearity and that singularity of

purpose, of track of future has given me a, a breath in which of, okay, then

it's okay to explore path A for now, and then c you know, how and what for, maybe

it'll intersect the pat C later on, but.

It just really gives me opportunities to look at possibilities and not

just look at a single possibility.

Uh, we would love to invite some of you to come on the screen live and

share your experience of way finding or your perspective of what we're talking

about here in terms of way finding.

So, Betty, Hello.

Welcome to you all again.

Way finding from West Wales.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

It's pretty wild here.

You need to be able to do that.

Oh gosh.

I didn't realize how relevant this conversation was gonna be and it is kind

of got me at a cellular level because it's really connected to the work I do,

which I didn't realize it was going to be, but, but just seeing what people are

talking about, about healing the child.

Well, no, not about, about childhood experiences as being key and, um,

yeah, and I really just feel like I. I see this a lot with myself

and with my clients and that, that, that in that healing then we, when

we, you know, a lot of times as children that we're given, uh, the

idea that from society, from our communities, from our teachers, from

our parents, usually that, um, there's a right and there's a wrong answer.

There's a right and a wrong thing to do.

And that just goes into us like we're like sponges between naugh to seven.

We just take on board everything that they say and then we have to unlearn

that later because obviously there isn't a right and a wrong, but we go about

life as adults thinking there's a right and there's a wrong way to do this.

And I think when we just really can relax that, like what Lana was saying

about this, there's a multiplicity, like there's all sorts of futures out there.

And, and when we can get let go of the idea of like, there's a

right and a wrong, we can just.

Like, and we can tune in.

When we stop caring so much about what other people want from us and

think about us and you know, all of the outside stuff, and we can

just trust and tune into what's inside, then it becomes so easy.

Because all you have to do is when you get to a junction in the road,

you just go, okay, how does this feel?

And like, it's, it's easy to listen to yourself when

you can tune out the noise.

I'm gonna propose a reframe.

There is what I find acceptable and what you find acceptable, what is.

Good for me.

And what might be bad for you?

And again, good, bad, not being the best words, but my path goes this way.

My thinking is going this way.

Your thinking is going that way.

And so there's a space here for conflict, but not conflict in that.

Ah, but a difference, a conversation around diverging paths and thoughts.

So as a, because I, I, and I'm gonna propose as a wayfinder, you are going

to do things that aren't wrong, but are in contradiction, in conflict,

divergent from what other people think.

And so you need to hold yourself in that space.

And I would, as I would propose, we also still need

to be in dialogue with people.

Because as someone who's doing business differently,

you're still doing business.

Which means you still have to find customers, which means you still have to

interact with other people in some way.

I'm reminded of the, um, teaching that I got during nonviolent

communication training.

We're in.

It really emphasizes that on a level of needs, we all can relate to the needs.

Where tension resides is when we have different strategies in

which we want those needs met.

Mm-hmm.

And this is where I, you know, I hear you Carlos, in how, how, how challenging

it would be when other people perceive your choices to be different, because

that's not the strategy that they would go for in meeting their needs.

And so it's easier to be judged and be told, Hey, that's not the

right way to do it, when actually it's, it's a preference in doing it.

In the neurodiversity work that, uh, we do, one of the things that we all

advocate for is let's shift from the golden rule to the platinum rule.

And if in the Golden rule we're talking about, you know, do unto

others what you would want others to do onto you, the platinum rule

is about do unto others what others would want to be done unto them.

And this really goes within that way finding of my way of

perceiving things, uh, processing information, making decisions.

Um, taking those decisions and pursuing life might totally be different

from how my brother would take his own ways of dealing with life.

and it's the same with my partner.

It's the same with my kids.

like what you said, Carlos, how do we get in dialogue?

How do we get in connection with.

Understanding that our choices might be different, yet our needs are the same.

And that is what in Filipino, um, psychology, we, we

emphasize on that's our kawa.

That's how we can have our shared humanity.

we're, we're all finding different, you know, our different paths.

We're all wayfinders.

It's just that our ways of doing it might be different.

And for me, this connects to, we wanna promote the wayfinders

in terms of we want to help more wayfinders behave and act and find

the things that they need to find.

and we wanna empower them because many of them I think, who are

wayfinders are creating communities, uh, carving a direction that could

be beneficial to other people.

And so there is.

This idea of, yes, you're a pioneer, but also you need to be

able to communicate what you found and bring it back if you believe

it's something that's beneficial.

Or if you're that kind of person who's trying to create some beneficial

change in the world, because your work isn't just about making money.

It's about feeling this sense of moving us forward for want of a

better term in the way we live.

And so what I'm getting from this conversation is tuning in.

To be a wayfinder, you need to tune into yourself so you can

actually navigate without a map and use that inner a compass.

But also that process of connecting with yourself should be also a journey of

being able to connect more skillfully with others, even those that you

don't necessarily agree with, so that you aren't othering all the time.

Because I'm a, I'm a maverick.

I don't agree with anyone else.

You're just a beacon.

And some people are attracted to it, some people aren't.

But you are there always open.

To engage.

And that, you know, for us, that's part of being in community.

That's part of why we, why we coach in community so that we can have divergent

ideas come at us and not get threatened.

And also express ourselves in a way that's compassionate, that

coaches other people to, to work and move forward with their stuff.

We're not all gurus to tell people what to do, but we can guide each other.

you talked about needs land, having needs as a way to communicate what's

important to us at this point in our lives, I think is, is huge.

Because that certainly helped me and I think helped Carlos too when

we were trying to navigate a big transition in our business journey,

was understanding that whatever we did, that these were the needs that

we wanted to meet through our work.

You know, community impact, um, for me, creativity, adventure, belonging,

all of these things were gonna be the foundations of whatever came next.

And so that.

I found that super helpful and I know others that have worked with us found

that super helpful to have these guide rails almost, uh, you know, when, when

things are changing, like how do you maintain some balance when there's a lot

of ideas, shiny new objects everywhere and distracting us from our attention

and also other people's ideas of what we should be doing with our lives.

So for me it adds a grounding to something that may seem a bit rocky

when you can sort of stabilize and, and focus on what's important to

you at this point in your life.

I dunno if Tash is still on the call, but she mentioned earlier

in the chatting, hearted leaders that were part of with her that

she fo focuses on the standards.

So like if she's, um, living up to the standards she set for herself in

terms of the work she does, she doesn't focus so much on goals or destination.

Um, but yeah, what I took from that was yeah, in some like how

do you trust your own metrics and what are those metrics for yourself

that, that help you move forward.

and, and I've picked up on that, on that, um, in this

particular point in our lives.

Mm-hmm.

I think that for me has been very, very important to also be in this

space of compassion to myself, um, when I make pivots in life.

Um, because it's very crucial to understand what's in the now.

So what's happening in the now?

What are the diff uh, what is the, the difference in interaction in

terms of energy, in terms of where my attention is being drawn to?

this really helps me in wayfinding to look at it as, in this moment,

at moment in time,

yeah, this is where my energy, my attention, my focus, my, you know, my,

my, my soul is gravitating towards too.

And it, it gives me a lot of compassion to think of, it does not mean that my

previous decisions were, but it was just more of, oh, at that moment that

is where, uh, what resonated for me.

Thanks Lala.

Thanks Lala.

Tash.

Hey,

thank you very much.

okay.

Well you're very, very welcome.

Well, thank you that Yeah, it was, it was just because, um, we were

on a call, uh, during the week and talking about way finding and goal

setting and, and, and the likes.

And it really ha set my head off really because, um, I find myself in a

situation where, you know, I'd always been a bit of a planner to be honest,

but, um, chaos in family life through, uh, a, a child with particularly

special needs, um, meant that plans went out the window all the time.

So suddenly I became, I don't know whether I'd call it wayfinder even.

Um, but I think, I started to try and measure up to all the different opinions

and all the different books that tell you what you should achieve and what

you need to do, and all these opinions that are, oh, there's a million of

them now, isn't there on the internet?

And actually what I discovered and seemed to be sort of a still

working out is actually living my days based on a set of standards.

Because when I come to the end of my time, am I going to worry

about a goal that I didn't reach because something went wrong

because it was outta my control?

Or am I going to judge myself on the standards that I kept, which I can

always keep no matter what is going on.

So I, I tend to use that rather than necessarily, yes, of

course there's sort of what I class as sort of guiding stars.

Wouldn't it be nice if that happens?

Wouldn't it be the good if I can do that and I'll perhaps work towards it

if I can, but as long as each day I've hit my standards and I'm not beating

myself up over goals, that I can't guarantee I'm going to make because it's

outta my hands, then I feel a little bit more at ease with life, I suppose.

you give us an example of, that in action.

Like a ATO that you, okay.

So

for, I, so I have a very simple, uh, list every day now I have a big

list of things that I'd like to do, and every day I have three things

that are gonna perhaps get me to that list that I know I can do.

And then two other bits on my list, which is something for someone

else and something for my health.

So today was run, and I've also had to send something to my daughter's off,

one of my daughter's off at university.

So that's something for someone else, something for me.

But then there's three things that are gonna help me with work.

When I've done those, I'm done.

Mm-hmm.

So no matter what, I have a, I've, I've done something and

I have, that's my standard.

That's what I have to meet today.

And I can do that.

And I just think that it just takes the pressure off me to feel like I've got to

constantly keep achieving at all times.

It's not to say that sometimes I don't do more if there's an enough

energy or enough allowance in my day, but the two priorities I never let

go are doing something for myself and doing something for someone

else because that's my standards.

And, and if I am healthy and fit, then I can carry on

doing the things I love doing.

because I think that's something that gets, you know, way laid along

the way when you're so focused on a direction you've got to reach or a,

a something you've got to achieve.

I, I, I love your non-negotiables stash.

That, that's how I often phrase it for myself.

What is a non-negotiable for me?

Yeah.

And, and definitely the connecting piece or, um, making sure that there's

time for connection, with people that I care about is, is part of how

I would say I measure my day or I measure how I show up within the day.

One thing though that I'm also picking up on Dash is also that

that narrative that we're holding on the bigger systems point of view

as well, we're really moving away from this dominant, paradigm, right?

This is like dominant mechanistic paradigm of this is how life should be.

But then you get into life, especially when you're, you know, in mid life you

get into life and then you realize, oh, wait a minute, this is not part of

what I was taught, or what was told, um, especially for us women, you know,

the, uh, and they lived ha happily ever after That has never been the case.

Like, so I love, I love this, uh, reframing that we're now doing

as a society more from that broad systems view of removing away from

this dominant mechanistic narratives to a more life-giving, life

nourishing systems point of view.

Wherein we're really looking at, yeah, but what's our cadence?

You know, what's our rhythms?

What are our natural ways of doing things?

And, um, if you look at nature, we don't force a, a, a tree to

grow how many meters in a day?

so why are we doing that?

You know, why are we doing that as society for ourselves or for others?

So, so for me, this is also where this wave finding is, is looking at.

These paradigms as, these narratives have existed and have worked in

that part of time in society.

But where we are now as living, breathing, and evolving human beings

that have a better understanding of ourselves and how we want to be in

life, it's a very different way and framing that we're now ushering in.

And the more that we can express our non-negotiables, the more that we

can inspire others to also draw in what are non-negotiables for them.

I think something you mentioned there, which made me me

think, you mentioned about not forcing a tree to do something.

Trees.

Uh, trees I think are so similar to humans.

They will only grow a certain height based on their environment,

but after that, they grow wide.

And I, you were talking to Lawrence about being in your fifties.

We are growing wide, not necessarily in our bodies, but

we're enriching another ring of, you know, interest, love, and stuff.

Stop, stop going up.

Stop, stop trying to get the, you know, ceiling.

Let's make this really rich and full of nutrients.

I love that.

Mm-hmm.

So, um, we have a question here from Dan, and just for those of

you listening, I think there is a tension for those of us who are,

on someone else's time, working towards someone else's vision.

When that's unavoidable, how does one retain a hand on the spirit of

wayfinding when someone else already, well, and I wanna add to this, where

someone has, someone has else, has already set the path, they told you the

path you want to, that, that you are, you are contributing to, and you want

to maintain the spirit of wayfinding.

So who'd like to tackle that one?

uh, at the start, I've had projects where, you know, similar to what

was shared, oh, it needs to have a definite, this, this, this, this.

Um, and I realized how much energy it took from me in delivering those.

So eventually across time, that's one of the things that I've learned

to filter is what do I say yes to?

And I know that this is also coming from a place of privilege because,

um, that then that means the financial aspect of things that needs to be

shared or, you know, that it needs to be discussed between me and my partner.

And that is often what we do.

so there is this component of, what can I say yes to and how much, and if

I do say yes to this, you know, I try to also learn to not say yes to more of

those type of projects so that my own nourishment and my own ways of, deciding

on things do not get so impacted that.

Then I also feel so disillusioned with the work that I'm doing.

and yeah, across time that's something that I've learned to

say no to more and more and, and.

The, the space that I am in or operating in would be, uh, similar

to what was shared a while ago, is just a space of enoughness.

What would be enough to, for me to, to commit to something, um, that might not

be in full alignment with how I want to show up and how I want to, to navigate,

you know, to, to go through life.

and then that rule of what's good enough for now, safe enough to try

is, uh, an easy, anchor to, to make decisions or base my decisions on.

I. There's a really great do lecture, by Mickey Smith called Do

trust, uh, in the things you love.

And for me, when I think of someone who's working in someone else's time on

someone else's vision, doesn't have full freedom to do what they want, then just

finding those little crumbs of comfort of something that really excites them.

So whether it's something creative, maybe it's a hobby,

maybe it's something that moves 'em towards where they wanna be.

Maybe it's people they need to be around to, get reenergized,

but ultimately to just lean into the things that they love doing.

Uh, 'cause for me, that's how you kind of move forward.

Otherwise you just, um, just stand still.

So yeah, surrounding yourself with good people I think is a good start,

especially if the people around you aren't, um, the kinds of people who

would go onto adventures themselves.

Maybe they'd be challenged by your, a new direction.

So yeah, surrounding yourself with more doers, more.

Um, Wayfinders ultimately, I think that's the start of this

and, and just encouragement as well, just to try things.

Not to, not to try and always have the answers of where it's gonna lead.

So I'm, I'm gonna frame my response, uh, in terms of a specific situation.

So, you have a set of skills, uh, experience that you've created in life

that you know you can get paid for.

And so you apply yourself to a job or you work for people that will pay

you for those skills because it is in service of what they need to do.

Whether those skills and that work lights you up or not.

It may be questionable.

And there's an element here of, for me, this idea what

finding meaning in it all.

there are times in our lives where we, where we work not

because of the work, because it's in service of something else.

Uh, and there's a sometimes a level of acceptance that's

required in that situation.

Not except this is the rest of my life, but except for now this

is what I need to do because it's in service of something else.

Whether that is a roof over my family's head, um, heads, whether

it's, um, in order to prepare for the future where I then go out on my own.

And then it's, I think there's a sense there of being, creating

meaning around that situation.

I think the, the, the struggle and the pain comes from

when it feels meaningless.

I'm doing this thing and I have no idea why I'm doing it.

And doing that kind of work where it doesn't necessarily align with the

direction you're going but serves you, I, I think, doesn't go against

the spirit of wayfinding because like anything that is meaningful,

it's an, it's an internal sense.

It is a spirit.

Like the fact that he, Dan used the word spirit is it's intangible.

It isn't something you measure, it's a, a sense your, your life is a way

you approach life with a way finding mentality and part of the way, maybe

working in someone else's way just so you can get to the next step.

And that's, and I wrote, I, I'm just to bring it a bit more to,

uh, something more tangible.

I, I spent good four years working in digital agencies

'cause I could get paid for it.

I could do the work.

I knew what, and I learned a lot about that situation.

So I found that was very useful for me.

And it got me to a certain point where I could step out on

my own and work with Lawrence.

And so, yeah, there's a, there's something here for me is like,

if you are in it and you dunno why soul destroying really.

And if it's really against your way of being and who you are, then there's.

There's an opportunity or a, a request from the world to redesign

your life, which is scary.

And this is the wayfinding approach.

and sometimes it's just a space that we need to go through in

order to get to the next stage.

So I think you can never, you don't necessarily lose way

finding as an approach to life when you are in an employment.

it's just you are, you are, you are taking a pause from that way tangibly,

but you can always be thinking about new ideas like Lawrence was saying.

How do you get that sense of being, exploring new things while still

working in a traditional job?

Invert comm.

any final thoughts before we leave?

yeah, the first thought is just how nice it is to be doing this.

Again, to be surrounded by people who think the way that we do.

I know we run a community, but it's, yeah, so nice to see the

engagement in the chat and people come out the woodwork like Catherine

and others who, uh, um, have been part of our community for a while.

So, yeah, it's nice to know that we're not alone in these thoughts,

which I think is a big part of, I guess the takeaway from me is if

you are alone with these thoughts, then it can be really debilitating

and so you don't move forward.

Um, or you just get stuck in this sort of binary, either stick or twist

or I make this right or wrong move.

And so yeah, there is no right or wrong move.

That's the, the thing I've learned and I've been shared today.

It's what, um, what feels right is the next step.

Yeah, there's, there's really a, a big resonance around you

are not alone in this way.

Finding, uh, that there are a lot of us who's doing things and, um,

creating from a place of, uh, I would say deep attunement with oneself.

And I do acknowledge that it's difficult to get into that space

when you are finding yourself in survival mode or when you are

coming up with financial Yeah.

Difficulties or challenges.

so for me, the important part of way finding is also understanding how can

we resource ourselves, um, in a way that helps us to filter the noise,

listen to the signals better, and resourcing can mean asking for help.

Resourcing can mean connecting, uh, uh, with people who can support us.

Um, resourcing can mean taking the time if, you know it's possible.

So, so that we might be able to, better, uh, take on the journey and

not feel that we're, traveling too harsh or too heavily in this life.

So know that you're not alone and know that you can resource selves not just

for yourself, but also with others.

so the first thing that's spring to mind based on, um, seems

the energy around this is.

We're gonna have to rebrand ourselves the Happy Wayfinder School.

Uh, and it's no longer vision 2020, a group coaching program to build

businesses aligned with who you are.

It's the way finding tribe.

How do we navigate uncertainty while still staying true to ourselves?

uh, for me, what's come up is this real sense and need for

some of us to just feel free from the structures and the, force

direction, the some parts of society might say that we need to follow.

And at the same time, to work with that again, that whole living

on the edge of ac acceptable.

How do we just dance in and outta this space so we, we can still.

Operate the way we need to operate.

And some there are mavericks out there who will do their thing.

There's people who will just love to just work within the system

'cause it feels safe or it's just attuned to who they are.

And there's some of us just like on the edge, and we, and we wanna live there.

Well, rather than feeling like we're schizophrenic, oh, I'm Maverick.

Am I not?

I'm a maverick or not?

No.

Just working it out as we go along.

So thank you.

if you are lost, if you've lost your way or if you know someone who's lost their

way, then point them in our direction and, and we'll get lost together.