0:00:05.3 Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vickie Brett.

0:00:08.9 I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:19.3 Each week, we're going to explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:24.7 And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

0:00:33.3 Welcome back, listeners.

0:00:35.0 Hi, everyone.

0:00:36.2 This is, I think, our second-to-last episode for this academic school year. And what a crazy six months. It's been under this administration. We've seen the landscape completely change. I think it's hard for some people. Somebody was saying that to me the other day. Like, oh, yeah, it was kind of crazy for a minute. And then it's like, yeah, but now we're seeing the real effects, right, of all the nonsense.

0:01:02.5 Yeah. And going into next school year, we'll really see how things take shape. And just a quick reminder for our listeners, if you don't already follow us on Instagram or social media, please go there. Because our most up-to-date updates on Supreme Court cases, legislation, calls to action, all of that, you're going to get the more real-time updates, snippets on social media, specifically Instagram. So go there to follow, because we really like to have more in-depth conversations on our podcast. But the most up-to-date, like, legal information is there.

0:01:34.5 Which is always changing. So.

0:01:36.0 Yes. We can more quickly update you there.

0:01:38.8 On IG yeah. And today we have our guest April, who is an advocate and has really kind of it's like we're preaching to the choir when we talk to April. And we really wanted to kind of focus on 504. So April, can you please introduce yourself to our listeners and give a little bit of background?

0:01:58.2 Yes. Hi, everybody. Thank you so much for having me Vickie and Amanda. So I am a special education advocate as you already said but I'm kind of different because I worked in schools for 20 years as a school psychologist, and I'm a member of COPA as you girls know and so I come from a different perspective in terms of i was a teacher, I worked at all different levels, a mom as well and then also i'm a licensed educational psychologist and then a school psych. And so my lens is kind of from all different hats and i'm big on strength-based IEPs and person centered-planning and so I kind of take a different approach when it comes to advocacy.

0:02:40.7 Which we love to hear, you know, especially having been on the other side, if you will, and you're able to kind of understand more intimately the politics, for lack of a better term, at times in certain districts, and you're able to kind of understand the lines that some staff members feel like they cannot cross. And that's, I mean, and I used to say when people had business cards, that's when the teacher would like slide the business card, our business card across the table to the parent. And so, yes, so we wanted to kind of talk. We've seen, you know, it's not so subtle since January of this year, but a shift towards, okay, we're not doing IEPs, here's a 504. And parents really coming to us when the 504 has, I mean, just failed their child. Is that a trend that you've kind of been seeing the last couple years? Has it been the last couple of months since the Trump administration? What are your thoughts?

0:03:32.3 That's a great question. I have been seeing a trend. Well, first of all, the elephant in the room is that when I worked in the schools for 20 years, right? I got one training on how to do a 504 plan. That is one training. And I worked in five different districts, very prominent districts, very big districts all over the city of Los Angeles. That is the biggest issue that we have here is that teachers in schools don't have the right training. And if you've worked in a school as an advocate or attorney, you know that every single year the admin changes. And whoever's in charge of writing up the 504 is going to change whoever's on the team and their district policies and decisions. And with that kind of influx, regardless of the political climate, things aren't going to be done with fidelity. And if people don't have training, they don't know what they're doing. So the trend that I've been seeing for 20 years has been writing a 504 is not consistent across school to school, district to district, state to state. And it should be more uniformly done because it's federally mandated, but it isn't.

0:04:44.5 And so it's kind of like we do this here and then families for many years, like my first 10 years as a psychologist in the 2000s, I'll say many times 504s were actually not placed in the child's educational, what's called a CUME file. And so what I noticed is the school psych is I would be like, okay, let's look at the 504. I'm in a 504 meeting. And I'm like, where's the 504? They're like, oh, it's in this drawer over here. Oh, and this is very common. This is very common. And then parents don't get a copy.

0:05:20.1 Yeah, or even explained what a 504 is. I mean, the amount of times I've had families come to me, there's never been any kind of assessment whatsoever. Schools are utilizing SST meetings and then going, well, that doesn't work, going to a 504 before even having any conversation of, wait, let's stop here. Should we be doing any kind of assessment to see what is the right direction? I mean, the amount of like child find cases that we've had, that we've filed, that's the progression that we see so often. Then it's almost like the thought process, and I get it from a school's perspective of like, let's start out with a little bit of support. And then if that doesn't work, let's increase and increase. But we're missing so much in that process that it could be five years before the child gets an IEP assessment. And we're like, well, now we have a fifth grader who's reading at a kindergarten grade level or first grade grade level, barely can read anything. And now we need intensive intervention when we could have just provided support. Or maybe the 504 is working because there's so much in it.

0:06:26.0 Like I've seen 504 plans that have so much specialized academic instruction, which is not supposed to be in there. So yeah, we definitely see the gamut of misuse.

0:06:34.9 Yeah, I definitely see that. And I also see that there's a disconnect between the teams of a 504 and the teams of an IEP. And again, it goes back to training. And then it also goes back to because parents aren't given, like for many years, I saw even now, I don't see a lot of procedural safeguards given to parents, even though they're supposed to be getting some type of written notification, right? And we all know that there's no set blueprint for a 504, but it does need to be a written document and it needs to be updated when needed. So for example, if we're going to change placement, modify the school, or if they're changing districts, like all of that is a reason for the team to be like, hey, let's come together and revise the plan. And so because parents don't know their options and then schools don't know how to deliver the 504 in a consistent way with fidelity, that is the biggest issue here. And so it's been going on for a while. I agree with both of you ladies that I've been seeing a resurgence. And what I'm especially seeing is, gosh, well, this child may exhibit a disability, this child may need additional support, let's do a 504, or they didn't qualify for the IEP, we're going to sit here with the same team in the same meeting, which they're not supposed to do, we're going to do a 504 right now.

0:07:58.9 So it's basically telling the family, we acknowledge your child has a disability, we acknowledge your child needs support, we have the evidence to document it, but we're not going to offer it, which I'm like, wait, what?

0:08:10.5 I know, it never, I know, I know, it never makes sense when that happens.

0:08:14.6 Yeah.

0:08:15.3 I've seen recently an uptake of students who have medical needs that impact their ability to access significantly, and they have other disabilities as well, where the schools will say, we're not going to put these medical plans, these medical supports in the IEP, we need to have a 504 separate. And I'm like, it makes no sense to have an IEP and a 504 for really any, I've come across like one situation that was very specific, where it was helpful to have two plans and the student was transitioning. But for the most part, if there is such medical needs that you need additional support, and we already have an IEP for a number of reasons, I don't know why we're having these two separate. And I think it's that miscommunication or just the lack of understanding of like the purpose, right? Of like, we should not be having both. We also should, there's protocols that come into place for how we develop each. I mean, even developing a 504 plan without having any data collection or analysis of how the student is doing, which happens all the time too, right? And I think it comes from, there's a very clear process for IEPs for disagreement or for procedural violations, whether it's complaints with the State Department of Education or it's through due process right?

0:09:36.4 But for 504 plans, we don't have that to the same extent. It is a much more convoluted process of having to file federally, and it's just not the same. And so I don't think there's as much pressure on schools to take the time to understand not only the purpose behind 504s, but the procedure and how we go about supporting students. It's not just, oh, they have ADHD, so we give them a 504.

0:10:00.4 I agree. I'm definitely, I've been seeing for a while, but I've been seeing a huge increase in the amount of students who have diabetes and who need medical support or students who have migraines. So those specific areas of medical needs. And when I bring up the subject to families, well, where's the healthcare plan? And they're like, wait, what? And so many nurses in schools don't know, well, gosh, we can have a healthcare plan. And I ran into this the other day where I talked to the nurse. I'm like, well, do you have a healthcare plan? And they're like, wait, what? And I'm like, okay. So I had to educate them about, well, if this child has a seizure, for example, like what's the care plan, right? What's the crisis plan? How are we going to do it? Or if there's another child, for example, that has a need, like who gets called when, which of course in the medical industry and in the healthcare profession, that's the norm. But in schools, it's like, oh, this is an education-based thing. But if it's medically based, then there needs to be specific protocols in place.

0:11:03.0 And again, because it's not really thought, well, gosh, there's only 8 million kids in the United States who have 504s. And so again, it's not that oversight and nurses, if your listeners don't already know, there's a huge shortage of nurses in terms of having funding in school and schools are not getting the funding. And then the bigger issue is they're like, well, gosh, we'd rather spend our money on this kind of support or service. So many, many schools that I work at do not even have a nurse on campus one day a week. And so the lovely and the wonderful person at the front office who is not medically trained is like, gosh, I've got to give insulin shots here. I've got to do that. And that is stressful and scary and it's very dangerous. Many schools have that. So they can't even do a healthcare plan. So again, it goes back to the communication, how we're doing it, and the way that we're running 504s and even IEPs as not a service, which they are a service, and parents and children are the consumer.

0:12:09.8 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think even just the understanding, the conversations I have around how does this impact the child, the thought, you know, when we go through 504 plans, you have the questions of, you know, what daily life activities, you know, does this affect? And so often, I see that being so limited, and that's where we get these problems where kids who are on 504 plans that should be on IEPs, because we're not having a more detailed conversation of how does this truly impact the child. If the child is, like you just said, receiving insulin shots, or I've had students who have to get bullets and all the different supports they need for their diabetes, that maybe cognitively, they're not having any challenges picking up academic concepts, but they're being so disrupted with having to go to that person in the office because there's not trained professionals. Maybe they don't have, I mean, I've had to fight for aids for these purposes so that the student can get bullets in the classroom, right, so that they don't have to leave class because that child who's missing five minutes one time may not seem a big deal.

0:13:16.0 But if they're missing five minutes 10 times in a day, or twice a day, every day, five days a week, the amount of content they're missing and academic that they're gonna have to keep come up with, like, so that when we look at how does this impact in their access to instruction and their learning, because now they're having to feel like they're having to catch up. Maybe they're having to do more work. It's gonna spiral into, are they having anxiety and overwhelmed because they are behind and they shouldn't be? And they're being told, "You're smart, you can do this."

0:13:46.7 And I think also with 504s that it's like, just nobody really seems to understand are the types of accommodations, right? When we talk about individual education plans, programs, we're talking about, you know, those specialized academic instruction that Amanda had, like, pointed out so that the child can participate and gain an appropriate public education. But with the 504, you know, it doesn't have to be severe. I think, you know, the buzzwords are like, what is affecting the major life activities? You know, is it substantial? And so when we're looking at accommodations, and this is what you were talking about, April, where it's like the child doesn't qualify for an IEP, but let's give them a 504. And it's like, this child's gonna need more than preferential seating, right? Gonna need more than extended time, you know, on test and assignments. And those are examples of some of the common accommodations that maybe a child with ADHD or like, you know, it's a very minimal case of ADHD, they would benefit. And that's all they need is a four. But more often than not, the ADHD kiddos that I have need the IEP. They need the specialized academic instruction because they are not able to attend.

0:15:00.9 Their impulse control is lacking. You know, they're just not able to make connections that, you know, a break during the school day as an accommodation is not gonna help that, right? Is that something that you kind of see or are people not really understanding what an accommodation is and what is needed within a 504 plan?

0:15:19.0 Yes, so there's two for that. The first is the way that the 504 plan, if they have a written plan, how it's structured. So I've seen some 504 plans that have a dropdown menu, which I always have an issue with because then it gives set choices. Second is really understanding that when it comes to accommodations, there's four subtypes, right? And so understanding the subtypes of accommodations, whether it is response, whether it's timing and scheduling, whether it's accessing it or extended time and what that looks like, and then really understanding a prompt hierarchy. So in terms of what are the setups and a performance condition? So if we're giving prompting, what is that going to look like? Is it going to be that we give a verbal prompt, a gestural prompt? Is that prompts fading to independence? And yes, these are specifics, but if we are expecting a child to read whatever 60 words per minute, and then in the accommodation, it's like, well, we're gonna give them extended time. It's like, is extended time beneficial? Many students who have ADHD, extended time is not beneficial because it's not remediating their learning needs and we can remediate the learning needs through a 504.

0:16:34.5 We adjust the access and the delivery model of how we're doing the setups. So it really comes down to understanding kind of that universal teaching design. And if you, for many of those teachers out there that are listening to this, they're especially like, I taught kindergarten and we're doing a ton of embedded accommodations in kinder because we're adjusting constantly how we as teachers work with a child because if the child is struggling, that means we need to adjust how we deliver the information, how they receive it. But unfortunately, when I worked in middle schools and high schools, the expectation is, well, the learner is going to just adjust. And that's not really truly universal design.

0:17:18.8 Putting the burden on the child.

0:17:21.4 Right. And so if the child is getting an F on a test, I'm not saying that we need to make things easier. Absolutely not. But if the child is consistently not performing, it's not because they're not learning, it's because they're not being given the right tools and resources. That goes back to the accommodations and how we're delivering the supports that's based on the child's strength.

0:17:44.2 I love that distinction. I think that that really kind of paints a picture for parents when they're given the option of, well, he's making progress on his goals. Maybe we should go down to a 504. No. Unless they can provide you the delivery of the accommodations. And that's something that we always kind of have a sticking point in IEPs. It's like the accommodations can look great on paper, but if the teacher is not able to appropriately implement them, then there's no point. And I imagine that's something that you often see with 504s is how they're actually being implemented, especially in the middle school or high school. You know, you've got to get each of those teachers in the meeting. They need to be there to share because they all have different teaching styles. And like you said, some of them inherently have these biases where it's like, well, you need to, as a student, like change the way in which you're receiving my information. It's like, wait, what? Is that something that you see with not having all the right people at the meeting, at the 504 plan meetings?

0:18:52.3 Yes, totally true. So when I was a school psychologist, my best years, I loved high school. It was my favorite grade level. Love, love, loved high school. And my best years with the best 504 team, well, first of all, I was on the 504 team. And if you've been to tons of 504 meetings, the school psych rarely goes. And I'm always like, why?

0:19:11.2 Like, it's so important we go. So I would make a stink and be like, I'm going to be part of the 504. You don't need to be here. I'm like, well, I want to be here because many of those students end up coming my way and I would go through the assessment process. And I already knew them and I knew the family. But going back to my best years on the 504 team, when we would have the meeting before the meeting, the assistant principal, who was the head of ours, I guess, if you will, she would reach out to the teachers and send all the observational forms. And then she would invite the teacher where the child struggled and have them come to the meeting because that's the crux of who really needed to support. And so we would have them report out on what does the child know? What do they not know? What do they need to learn? And then we could adjust the type and frequency and really customize the 504 based on the child's need. And at the 504 meeting, we always invited the student and the student was pretty much leading the meeting.

0:20:14.9 And that's another thing that I really feel like is important because as you know, 504, you can apply for disability supports in college, but the 504 doesn't automatically transfer. And I talk about this a lot. And so many colleges, for example, when the child signs a FERPA waiver, it doesn't sign the FERPA waiver, but they get to college and they apply for disability supports and they meet with the 504 team. Here's what happens is that the 504 team is like, gosh, we can't give extended time. Why? Because we're on a block schedule. That doesn't work. And as you know, with the far as in college, there is a different kind of intent in terms of access, but they don't have to fundamentally alter the curriculum. And so if the child isn't involved in the 504 process in high school and they're like, gosh, this is what I need and this will help me in college, then it doesn't get pared down because it has to be pared down so that the chances of it being approved by the college disability office or whatever office is set up based on what the college has available, that it meets their needs.

0:21:19.3 So it kind of starts from the beginning. And so I always encourage my families, I'm like, you have a child with elementary school, bring them to the 504 and the school's like, well, we don't do that here. I'm like, well, can they not bring the child? No, they can bring the child. We just don't.

0:21:35.0 Why?

0:21:36.0 I don't know.

0:21:36.7 It's just always...

0:21:38.8 Always having just having blanket rules of we always do this or we never do this. Like we're not looking at the individual child. We're just making it easier for us. We're making it easier for the school or the teachers rather than actually looking at what is this specific child need.

0:21:54.9 Right. And teaching advocacy is part of our job as educators. And, you know, advocacy comes from empowerment, understanding and feeling like I can contribute. And this is my plan. And that goes back to the person-centered planning aspect of IEPs and strength-based IEPs that is missing. And we need to go back to it's all about empowering students and families at the table by providing a more relevant and useful IEP experience.

0:22:26.5 Absolutely. And there's so much we could go over and talk with and we'll have to have you back to, you know, maybe dig a little bit deeper into maybe even components of the 504 plan. But if our listeners have any questions for you or want to reach out, what's the best way for them to do that?

0:22:42.5 They can visit my website at riseeducationaladvocacy.com or check out my videos on YouTube @riseeddvocacy or Instagram.

0:22:52.3 April, thank you so much for the work that you do for all these students. And I'm sure you were one of the good ones when you were working for the districts. But I feel like your knowledge is being put to much better use with families that connect with you. Listeners, we will talk to you one more time before we take our break, a much-needed break from the school year. And we'll talk to you then.

0:23:16.4 Bye.

0:23:17.1 Bye-bye.