Welcome back to another

episode of the Mind

Field Builder podcast.

As always, I'm

joined by my co

host, Matthew Carlin.

How are you, mate?

I am good, buddy.

How are you today?

Not too bad.

Not too bad.

Bit better

than yesterday.

Had a bit of a

rough day yesterday.

But, um, other than

that, I'm pretty good.

Hey, question.

How are we going to

build 180, 000 homes

each year

until 2029?

I think everyone is

asking this question.

So, It's

we're gonna,

spit out 1.

2 million new homes.

Here they are, but

we have no plan

or idea how we're

gonna get there.

a realist and I

think it's completely

impossible.

So, probably a bit

of a back story for

everyone on this topic.

The Federal Government

last year set a

goal of building 1.

2 million new homes

that is, in the

next five years.

That doesn't take into

account any renovations

or extensions or,

I'm not sure if that

includes developments,

but they're

talking new homes.

Which means, Hamish,

that to stay on track

we need to build

an extra 60, 000

homes each quarter.

not only

that, we also need

to find an extra

90, 000 skilled

construction workers.

So that's just not

your labourers, that's

people who are actually

qualified and they just

don't appear out of

thin air, especially

skilled ones.

and my definition

of skilled compared

to a tradie are

two different

things as well.

Just because you finish

an apprenticeship

doesn't mean

you're any good.

I don't know what your

thoughts on that are.

yeah, I mean, I guess

that's a whole other

topic to unpack our

population is projected

to increase by another

2 million people by

2029, which I guess is

why we need more homes.

Now I'll probably just

jump on very quickly

and say, I don't

think Matt and I have

the answers to this.

In fact, I know we

don't have the answers,

but We've obviously

got our opinions on

this, which we think

should be talked and

thought about more

broadly, outside

of this podcast.

So, obviously

there's a lot of

houses to be built.

That's materials,

that's labor, that's

skilled labor, as Matt

was saying before.

Like, how the hell

are we going to do it?

Like, we're struggling

to keep up as it

is.

So September

23 last year,

total dwelling

commencements

fell by 10.

4%.

So that's 37,

116 dwellings

were commenced

late last year.

We need to build.

Double that

and then more.

And if we look at

dwellings under

construction, that

also fell by 3.

1 percent in the

September quarter,

which new houses

accounted for about 97,

000 of those dwellings

under construction.

These are numbers

by ABS, by the

way, Australian

Rural Statistics.

And.

They're not numbers.

We're just pulling

out of thin air.

, this is government

studies it leads

to probably me

with one question.

It's like, well,

yeah, how do we do it?

and I have this idea

that We've got to

build 60, 000 homes.

Yeah.

And under our current

code, which has just

really recently changed

too, but we still

know there's a number

of flaws in that,

that we're going to

build a lot of shit

quick, which means

we're going to have

a lot of shit to fix.

Yeah.

Very fucking quick.

we can only look to New

Zealand for this issue.

So they've gone

through the leaky

building syndrome,

which is previously

estimated to cost

about 11 to 22 billion.

And that was

done by PWC.

But a recent study

has actually said

that's going to cost

upwards of 47 billion.

And that is something

that, especially in

Victoria, we can't

go into more debt.

We need to think

through the situation.

clearly, and build

more shit fast, we

can't afford to pay

and fix these homes.

The government in New

Zealand are paying

to fix these homes.

We can't afford that.

And we have

the solutions.

It's not like these

answers aren't already

out there for everyone

to understand.

Like we know how

to build correctly.

We can look at everyone

else's mistakes.

But I think it starts

on the first thing is,

and that's something

that I'm experiencing

in my own business at

the moment is getting

skilled workers.

Like, where

do we start?

How do we bring people

into this industry?

we're losing 8 percent

of skilled workers,

I think, per year

in the residential

construction industry.

We're leaving, whether

retirement or just

not wanting to be

part of the industry.

, and only 50 percent

of people going into

apprenticeships,

uh, , finishing

their apprenticeship.

And these aren't, stats

that I'm making up to

make it sound scary.

These are

real, figures.

that you can quickly

Google and find.

It took us five

minutes to find these.

So where do you reckon

we start, Hamish?

What would you do

if I go, Hamish,

you're in charge.

I think the tricky

thing is Matt was

saying before is

quite often when we're

putting up stuff fast

to meet demand, we're

putting up shit.

So we need to really

think about the

quality of these homes

and how can we, um,

repeatedly roll out

lots and lots of homes.

But still maintain

health and comfort.

And in my mind, the

answer is simple and

that's prefabrication.

I think we're gonna

see a lot, more

prefabrication over

the coming years.

And, the government

needs to invest

more money into

plants where we can

prefabricate homes.

That's a known entity.

It's predictable.

With minor changes to

the floor plan, you

can roll these things

out really quickly.

I mean, this is not

a new idea that They

do it in, Europe

already.

I mean,

Yeah.

So for those who don't

know, can you just give

us an explanation of

what prefabrication is?

Like, can you give

us some methods?

I, we're all using

prefabrication on

site at the moment

through trusses

and that's frames.

A lot of people already

know those ones, but

what, prefabrication

you sort of referring

to?

a couple of different

ways to look at it.

So, if you look at

like, what is, I guess,

the true definition of

a prefabricated house,

it's a house that.

generally comes

out in parts, but

it's completed.

So, the whole house is

not going to come out

of a factory, but part

of it is going to come

out and it's plumbed.

It's got electrical,

it's flat, it's,

you know, got wall

linings and all

that kind of stuff.

It comes on a

bunch of trucks.

It gets the site and

gets put together.

that's one

prefab solution.

Another way to look

at it is doing it

in, a more module or

cassette or a panel.

Solution and that

is in your SIPs, so

Structured Insulated

Panels or the likes of

what Carbon Light and

LAROS and even Eclipse

Passive House are

doing, where they're

designing and building

wall assemblies

in a factory in a

controlled environment.

And I guess the major

difference is we're

just talking about

the superstructure.

We're not talking

about all the

fittings and fixes

and wall coverings

and roof coverings

and stuff like that.

We're just.

Really talking about

the superstructure

both have their merits.

Sometimes access

is a, is an issue

with prefabrication.

So you can't, you

know, not every

site lends itself

to a prefabricated

home but more sites

lend themselves

to like a cassette

or panel kind of

home.

And this isn't

groundbreaking stuff,

but this isn't like

where the first people

in the world to do it.

So why Hamish is

chatting, I've just

done a fact check here.

So Croatia

prefabricate 95.

5%.

of their houses.

Germany, oh, for

comparison, Austria

is 84 percent and

Germany is about 88%.

that's a huge amount

of percentage of,

of countries in

Europe doing that.

And for my, thinking on

that, I totally agree.

Prefab is the

way to go.

I know both of our

businesses are already

looking, heading

down this road one

because we can't

find skilled trades.

And we, we know we're

both in a very niche

market that we're

offering very good

work terms awesome

conditions, high rates

of pay compared to

most other people.

And that's tough and

that's something we're

already considering.

And I think if we can

think of these methods

to progress us forward

and when we have more

players entering the

field and government

sort of funding R&

D around this to

incentivize other sort

of companies to pick

this up, that's when

real change happens.

does make life easier.

Like, I don't know,

like the one, six

projects I've had,

I know you've dealt

with prefabrication

more than I have,

but it just goes

together and it can

be constructed on

the other side of the

world, shipped over,

and it works like a

perfect jigsaw puzzle.

And everything's

pre organized.

We know where

everything's going from

a builder perspective.

And we can even

look at developers.

It means less

variations are going

to be made because

you just can't.

And they become costly

and it makes it better

for collaboration

because we all have

to be on the same

page and communicate

in a very high level

very early, but it's

just a change of the

change of mindset.

I think um,

think for shrine.

Typically, we have

this idea of traces

like cardiac work and

you've got to work

14 hour days and be

on the tools all day.

We've got to

lift it all.

We can't use cranes

or lifting equipment

like we've got to

lift it ourselves.

I think that.

Is where we need to

start and look at

a whole different

education system and

start educating our

trades at an apprentice

level to be like, this

is something that's

going to be happening.

We need, we need to

look at other avenues

to employ people

through factory work.

We can make it here.

We can make it

cost effective.

I think it's something

that, like, I've

looked at it from

my house that I'm

about to build, but

just due to the site,

the constraints,

it's too hard.

I won't fit the

truck down my street.

But I think, In

any area that you

can drive a truck

down and have great

access, like, why you

wouldn't look at doing

this is beyond me.

I mean, and if you

look at it from a

like a risk management

point of view, and I'm

looking at through the

lens of the builder

biggest risks that

we manage on site a

time and what impacts

time it's weather.

I know that we've had

homes where we put

up a, an entire home

in 4 days and have

the roof wrap on.

At the end of

the 5th day.

Now that in my mind is

making that reasonably

watertight as far

as blocking majority

of that moisture or

that water egressing

into the building.

Now that all of

a sudden opens

up multiple paths

of Opportunity to

have work continue

going both outside

and inside.

And just to clarify,

we're not talking

about prefabricated

homes here.

We're more talking

about panelized

construction.

So whether that's

fits, whether that's.

Systems like Carbon

Light or Avisa or pre

fabricated homes are

different but obviously

still expedite the

building process.

But, I mean, this is

all great and good

and well, Matt but

we still need labour.

We still need people,

boots on the ground,

whether that's in

a factory, whether

that's onsite putting

this together.

there's a huge

shortfall of labor

at the moment.

And I know you're

experiencing at the

moment, we're trying

to get you know, people

to feel some role

within your business,

Yeah, and so I look

at this, like, there's

so many avenues

that we can start

to look at in here.

I think the first one,

the apprenticeship

it's outdated.

It's never changed.

This is a big

bug bear of mine.

It really needs to

change to upskill

and teach these

kids properly.

, I personally think

that spending 2 days at

trade school learning

to use a hand planer

is a waste of time.

start teaching them

real skills that

like no one's seeing

their hand planning

a wall anymore.

Why bother teaching it?

Let's teach them how

to properly use tools

and electric tools.

So they're using

them correctly.

That's just

one example.

And I think, I think

that, look, there's

this argument.

I've done a lot of

research on this in

the past, because

we have a number of

people trying to get

into the industry and

an apprenticeship, the

biggest barrier is the

pay as an apprentice.

Now it's a really

hot topic because

one, apprentices

aren't paid great.

. That's just what it is.

But if you compare

that, say, like, I

think an apprentice

at the moment is

probably about 20 an

hour, which, so

Well, I'm sorry,

I've got mature age.

So it's about 27

50 or something.

yeah.

So let's compare

that to when I was

a fourth year, I was

getting about 7 an

hour, like that's

substantially more.

And, and great.

I think that we

need to be paying

apprentices more.

But with paying them

more also means that

building costs go up.

And that's something

that is also another

contentious issue

in the industry

at the moment.

that becomes a barrier

for people to entering.

On the flip side is,

you go to uni at the

moment and you're

walking out with

a 50, 000 hex fee.

So, do you want

to go do that?

like, people want

to move out of home

and do all these

things and travel.

I totally respect that

and it's something

I'm very big on.

But, we can't

have it all.

And I don't know how

we compensate that,

that issue with the

apprentices, because

it is a big issue and

the burden shouldn't

be on builders and

clients to pay more,

like, there's a point

where it becomes,

well, why would I

put on an apprentice

where I can just pay

a qualified carpenter?

And as we bump, if we

bump apprentices up to

35 an hour, well, the

carpenter that's got a

ton more experience is

going to want the same

percentage increase.

Like, why

wouldn't they?

That's what I

would ask for.

It makes sense.

Okay.

So that, that's a

huge issue that we

need to work on.

I think that we need

to look at migrants

and bringing people

in from overseas and

opening potentially

our borders for very

skilled people to come

in and share some of

their experience from

overseas in certain

skills, especially

when we look at,

say, parts of Europe

and North America.

But there's one big,

big, big thing that

we need to look at,

and that is at the

moment we only have 2

percent of the people

working as trades on

site and, uh, females.

And I think there

is a huge market for

that to get people

into our industry.

We're starting to

see it being dabbled

in the media a bit,

but this is something

that I know you,

Hamish, you've got

a female apprentice.

Am I right?

Do Helena.

Yeah.

So this is a big one.

I know this is

something we've

both spoke about

a lot of the past.

We did a post on this

last year and I know

I shared that with

you earlier on today.

My opinion is yes,

there is a massive

untapped resource there

of females and women.

And I'd even say by

extension, some men

who might think that

the ship has sailed

for them getting into

an apprenticeship.

You know, the post that

I did on our social

media was why can't we

offer flexible hours?

Why can't we offer part

time apprenticeships?

Why can't we offer

a three day week?

And in my opinion,

this can all happen.

It's just you as a

business making the

choice to offer an

environment where you

can do that, because

I guarantee you can

make that happen.

yeah, so three days,

so just hypothetically

you did it, just

from easy maths,

you do it two and a

half day per week.

Does that mean that say

it would take you two

years to do your first

year apprenticeship?

I probably haven't

thought through all

the little nuances

of like, becoming

qualified.

difficult questions.

No, that's all right.

And I think, I think

this is good because

it, it obviously starts

up a conversation

and as I said at the

beginning of this, I

don't think we have

the answers to it.

Like, why can't we

have a part time

apprenticeship?

Why can't we offer, you

know, switch to some

more online learning?

If you think about

the people that

you're attracting

coming into that role.

They are motivated.

Believe me when I say,

they are motivated.

They have an

opportunity that it

does not come knocking

every single day.

And if you gave them an

opportunity, say, look,

we're going to give

you three days work

a week, it's a part

time apprenticeship,

but do you know what?

You're probably going

to have to do maybe

an hour or two every

other night online just

to make up some time,

um, with some of the

educational pieces.

Now there's obviously

that practical side

of it, which can

only happen on site.

again, we're not

going to solve these

problems now, but

like, in my mind, the

solutions aren't hard.

So here's something

for you, and I say

this, if you're not on

video yet, I'm going

to smile about it.

But we've always done

it a certain way, why

change?

attitude of our

industry.

We've never

done it that

way,

Look, and do

you know what?

I think the, beauty

about the people that

are are listening to

this podcast, they

know us pretty well.

And I think we are.

You know, I don't want

to say thought leaders,

but we certainly think

outside the box when

we're trying to solve

problems and I know

that served me well

and it served you

well, like I'd almost

guarantee that most

people are listening to

this, would be open to

some kind of flexible

working arrangement

if it meant that you

had the right person.

And I would guarantee,

guarantee, mark my

words, if you give

someone an opportunity

like this, they

will work their

fucking ass off.

I

and even going just

back to men, I'm not

trying to be gender

biased or anything

here, but like these

days men want to

be more involved

with their kids.

They want to see

them go to school.

They want to

drop them off.

Like, we have

to be flexible.

there's no other

way around it.

If we want to keep

people, we've got

to offer various

different work life

balance situations.

And it's not a one

fit all approach.

think at the end of

the day the reality

is that you're running

a business and work

needs to be done.

There needs to

be compromises.

Everyone needs to kind

of come to the table

and work out a solution

of what actually works

best for that person

in that business.

I know in our

business my team

works seven to four

Monday to Thursday.

They have Friday

seven to one and

they have, The rest

of the afternoon

off on a Friday to

go and do whatever

they need to do.

I always say

family is first.

If you've got a

swimming lessons, if

you've got to pick your

kid up, if you've got

a first assembly or

a race that you want

to go and watch, it

is without question,

always a yes from me.

If your kid's

sick, no problems.

All good.

No dramas.

And do you know what?

I'm a father of

two kids, mate.

I want to pick them up.

I'll pick them up three

or four days a week.

And I love that.

And I look around and

what actually makes

me happy is I reckon

in the two years that

I've actually been

at school, I'm seeing

more and more men

pick their kids up.

And that is amazing.

I can tell you hand

on heart that my

dad never picked

me up from school.

And,

that's how I

want to be.

and if I'm giving

myself the opportunity

to do that by right.

Every single part of my

team, every single one

of my team has, should

have the opportunity

to do that as well.

So what, what

else can we do?

how do we build

these 60, 000 homes?

And let's be

honest, I'm not

an expert in how we

make this happen.

think if we're building

at the moment, what

I say we completed

at the start uh,

about commencements,

we're only

commencing 37, 000.

Let's just say, how

do we get to 50?

in my opinion,

nothing's going

to change without

government

intervention, and

that's unfortunate

government needs

to subsidize

apprenticeships,

governments need to

subsidize or make

investments into

prefabricated factories

Upskilling like

Upskilling.

carpenters and builders

and trades to learn

about prefabrication.

Like, create a

course and offer

it for free

think one of the other

things too is you know,

I think we need to try

and, actively remove

the stigma around

getting into a trade.

And I know it has

changed from, you

know, when I was at

school and I've left

school, it's still

there though, like

I went to a private

school there was never

any conversations

around that I should

get into a trade.

It was all about

it's only the Dumb,

kids to trade,

yeah, it's all the

dumb kids to do,

it should not be

seen as a lesser

career pathway.

And that should be

celebrated, whether

it's at a public school

or a private school.

Girl's school or boy's

school.

we need to remove

this stigma that,

oh, you're, oh,

you're a tradie,

or you're not smart

enough, I think you

need to be a tradie.

Like, what

if someone is

smart, they just

want to be a tradie?

that's off to Dwayne

Pierce you know, what

he's trying to do with

his course Live Life

Build is to change that

narrative around of

just being a builder

and actually becoming

a professional.

I, and I think that's

really just by changing

one or two words in a

description completely

changes your mindset

around something.

rather than just

be a builder or a

trades person, you're

a professional.

Change the narrative.

also think the other

thing that doesn't

help is there's so much

media backlash on our

industry at the moment

that it's as if the

world's falling apart.

There's a meteor that's

about to hit our site.

that clickbait, destroy

article think we need

to remove ourselves

from that thought.

And I understand that

certain papers and

media outlets have

produced this, but

there are good things

that are happening.

And there are

good people in

here and there

are good builders.

They're good

architects, engineers,

interior designers,

tradies, industry

professionals.

But I think the

narrative needs to be

forced that, Hey, we

can do good things.

Typically, Australia

was known for their

trainees and their

skilled workers, and I

don't know where that

narrative is now gone.

Are we behind times

with what we do?

Yeah, we are.

But we're generally

in every single

outlet in Australia

or any industry.

We seem to be

behind time.

So it's not just

us.

I mean, I think

the good, just,

I think

sorry.

I, um, I know you, you,

you and I, our brains

bloody move like

a thought comes in and

we've gotta jump in.

I, I, do you know what,

I'm gonna put this out

there and I hope this

does stay in here.

I am going to try and

be a better listener.

I'm going to try and

be a better listener.

Starting from now, I'm

going to try and be

a better listener and

stop trying to

it's already helped me.

I, I don't know about

you and this is where

we go on tangents that

I don't know about

you, but I feel like

I'm already getting

like 1 percent better

each week with just

everything with

that, just listening

and just stopping.

Sometimes

the mute button

here does help.

I think we've raised

more questions rather

than answers, but I,

think that the good

thing is that there

are solutions here.

Like it's not as

if the answers

aren't there for us.

I just think the key

is to, if we're going

to be building lots

and lots of Health and

comfort and thermal

performance need to

be at the forefront

of every single one

of those houses that

comes out of a factory.

And when we talk about

durability, everyone,

we mean water damage

most of the time.

And water, water

is the number one

killer of buildings.

It destroys buildings.

And water comes in many

forms from bulk water

gas in its vapor form,

to snow, to rain, hail.

There's so many

different forms

of water that

we breathe out.

I

think, is it two liters

of water per day?

Something like that,

Something crazy.

So it's about managing,

managing that water

to stop the building.

being destroyed and

the structure being

destroyed because again

water kills buildings.

So I think that needs

to be that to me should

be the number one

part of the discussion

that we do that every

building should have

to stand the test of

time that we're not

here fixing it in

10 15 years because

we fucked it up and

didn't understand

building science when

the answer is already

there and we need to

make sure that we're

employing good people

to build good homes.

there's probably

one thing that I've

missed here I think

one of the biggest

challenges we have.

Is the planning

departments.

These fucking people

are dinosaurs and

I've just gone through

it in my own house.

But they are one

of the biggest, if

not personally the

biggest hurdle, into

getting this amount

of homes out there.

There's so much red

tape that goes on

behind the scenes

across all facets,

from residential

to, to developments.

I think someone that

can probably speak

to this pretty well

going forward be Liam

from Hip Burst Height.

But, but I think

we need to start

removing some of

that red tape and

some of that politics

behind the scene to

allow this to happen.

And look, the thing

is like, where are we

putting these homes?

everyone wants to live

50Ks out of Melbourne.

other jobs out there.

How are they

getting in there.

We don't have the

infrastructure.

These 60, 000 homes

actually have to be

it is the stupidest

idea just to think

that we should just

close down more

potential farming

land and put fucking

houses on there.

When we have an

opportunity to,

Offer really amazing

high density,

healthy living.

I know the guys

that hit their

spot do it well.

The nightingale

project, you know,

the nightingale

model does it really

well to like these

guys, these houses

or apartments can be

beautiful and amazing

to live in and have

a sense of community

all at the same time.

Yeah.

it's a quality

thing, not quantity.

Like I'd rather

than build half

the amount of homes

that are properly

thought through that

offer a space for

people to live for

a long, long time.

But then most likely

don't want to move out

of, then let's just

whack these things up.

only going to come

back to hurt us.

And I, unfortunately,

we'll probably look

at this podcast and

hopefully we're still

recording podcasts

in 10 years, but

this is one thing

that I'm going to

find this sound clip

and be like, should

have listened to us.

I think it's,

I think it's,

I think it's going

to be one of those

things where we're

And you know, in 10

years time, Matt,

you'll be old enough

to run for politics.

So, um, I'll be

getting, I'll be

getting too old.

You'll, you'll still

have the energy to

become a politician.

In ten years time,

I won't even be your

age.

No, no, I'm

42 this year.

No, 43.

No,

I'm, nah, I'm

thirty thirty five

this year.

Nah.

Anyway, I think

we're going to see

a massive change in,

the environment that

we're working within,

whether that be.

More women even non

binary, transgender,

whatever, whatever not

just going to be a male

dominated industry.

We're going to see

minor, yes, minority

groups are going

to be less of a

minority in the

construction industry.

And we're going to

have, like, more

comfortable and

healthier homes,

higher density

living, and less red

tape to build it.

Yeah, and pre

fabrication,

yeah, I'll tell you

what people, if you're

not on board with

prefab or, modular

building, you know,

you are going to be

behind the times.

I guarantee that.

And these are only

our thoughts guys,

Hamish's brain, and

we understand that you

might have different

views, and some of

you probably have

better ideas than us.

And do you know what,

if you've got, comments

on this, like, we'd

love to hear from you.

you know, these

are just us sort of

throwing some topics

out here and having a

bit of a chat about it.

Like if you've got some

ideas on, on how we

can help solve this.

Get in touch, Instagram

DM us on either of

our Instagram pages

and we might even get

you on on a podcast.

I'd love the

planning minister

to come on because

I'd, that'd be

really nice.

maybe I can get,

maybe I can get

in contact with my

mate Mark Dreyfuss

and see if he can,

uh, get someone on.

Yeah, I'd love to, I

want to grill them.

I want to know how

they're doing this

and not this bullshit

sort of going circles.

Oh, this is,

it's, it's great.

It's going to get

us elected next.

Like, what's your path?

Think long term, Think

how are we doing this?

So, but, Thanks for

the chat today, mate.

Seem to be doing

pretty well.

We've had some great

feedback on where

we're at the moment,

this podcast and

again, the more people

you can share this

with and listen to,

listen to it, hit

that subscribe button.

If you already haven't,

give us a follow.

It's only

going to help.

Well, we know it's

going to help our

industry get better.

The amount of people

have had to reach

out already and

tell us they've

learned something

and understood

things a little

bit more clearly.

It's about that.

Like we want to

give our knowledge.

, we know we are

here forever.

And we've been passed

on knowledge at some

point and it's all

about passing that to

our next generation

because I don't want to

be that generation that

our kids have to fix.

I don't want to

be that generation

that we're known as.

We left it to our kids

to fix All that shit.

So have fun, mate.