1 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,360 Well, hello and welcome to the eCommerce Podcast with 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:09,040 me, your host, Matt Edmundson. 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:13,690 This is a show all about helping you deliver eCommerce wow. 4 00:00:13,690 --> 00:00:15,430 And to help us do just that. 5 00:00:15,879 --> 00:00:17,349 I am chatting. 6 00:00:17,495 --> 00:00:20,945 With Gareth Everard from Rockwell Razors. 7 00:00:21,305 --> 00:00:24,905 Uh, well it's a founder story today, which is great, and I'm really looking forward 8 00:00:24,905 --> 00:00:27,245 to digging into the whole razor thing. 9 00:00:27,245 --> 00:00:28,685 And it's not just about razors, is it? 10 00:00:28,685 --> 00:00:29,885 It's about his journey. 11 00:00:30,155 --> 00:00:31,055 About his story. 12 00:00:31,205 --> 00:00:34,175 I know a little bit 'cause I've got the notes and it's gonna be fascinating. 13 00:00:34,175 --> 00:00:37,625 So you're gonna wanna stay, uh, connected to, I'm definitely gonna want to grab 14 00:00:37,625 --> 00:00:41,165 your notebooks if you're running your own e-commerce business, because I'm 15 00:00:41,165 --> 00:00:44,645 hoping, and I'm expecting there's gonna be a lot of tips coming outta this one. 16 00:00:44,675 --> 00:00:45,335 No pressure Gareth. 17 00:00:46,180 --> 00:00:47,260 This is what we're expecting. 18 00:00:47,620 --> 00:00:50,020 Now before we get into it, if you haven't done so already, make 19 00:00:50,020 --> 00:00:53,680 sure you sign up to the newsletter at eCommerce Podcast dot net. 20 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,650 We will send out to you every week just to show notes and stuff straight 21 00:00:56,650 --> 00:00:59,110 to your inbox so you don't even have to go onto the web to get them. 22 00:00:59,770 --> 00:01:02,710 I dunno if I'm promoting laziness by doing this, but hey, hey, hope. 23 00:01:02,990 --> 00:01:03,950 It builds the email list. 24 00:01:03,950 --> 00:01:04,580 Come join us. 25 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:06,020 Uh, it'd just be great to connect with you. 26 00:01:06,020 --> 00:01:07,340 Great to get to know you. 27 00:01:07,700 --> 00:01:09,380 Uh, and why not come say, how's it? 28 00:01:09,710 --> 00:01:13,760 Now let's talk about this chap on the other end of the phone. 29 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,500 Gareth Everett, the brains behind Rockwell Razors and the marketing force behind 30 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:23,660 eco game changers like Lomi and Pella case with the BSC and environmental 31 00:01:23,660 --> 00:01:25,820 science from Western University. 32 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,720 Uh, he's built a career turning big ideas into planet friendly products. 33 00:01:30,045 --> 00:01:34,455 Whether it's reinventing razors or leading eco-friendly innovations, 34 00:01:34,455 --> 00:01:35,745 Gareth's mission is simple. 35 00:01:36,015 --> 00:01:39,825 Make the world a greener, better place one product at a time. 36 00:01:40,095 --> 00:01:41,655 Gareth, listen, welcome to the show, man. 37 00:01:41,890 --> 00:01:47,265 I, I have been looking forward to this conversation 'cause I, for me, I, when 38 00:01:47,265 --> 00:01:50,475 I read that you were involved in, in Lo Me, am I pronouncing that right? 39 00:01:50,955 --> 00:01:53,505 Um, I instantly recognize what that was. 40 00:01:53,745 --> 00:01:56,265 Uh, you might wanna explain to the, the audience what that was. 41 00:01:56,535 --> 00:01:58,575 So let's get into that whole. 42 00:01:59,455 --> 00:02:00,415 Side of things at some point. 43 00:02:00,415 --> 00:02:01,945 But I'm very excited to have you here. 44 00:02:01,945 --> 00:02:02,725 Welcome to the show. 45 00:02:02,725 --> 00:02:03,535 Thank you for joining me. 46 00:02:03,755 --> 00:02:04,270 Thank you. 47 00:02:04,430 --> 00:02:04,670 London. 48 00:02:05,530 --> 00:02:07,600 Yes, all the way from London, um, 49 00:02:09,699 --> 00:02:10,300 in London. 50 00:02:10,630 --> 00:02:10,959 Um. 51 00:02:13,929 --> 00:02:16,690 But happy to talk to you about Lomi, about Rockwell. 52 00:02:16,869 --> 00:02:17,890 Just happy to be helpful. 53 00:02:17,890 --> 00:02:18,880 Where do you wanna start? 54 00:02:19,255 --> 00:02:21,984 Well just, just explain what Lomi is. 55 00:02:22,075 --> 00:02:24,894 Um, because I was intrigued by this, I never was intrigued enough 56 00:02:24,894 --> 00:02:28,374 to buy it, mainly because my wife didn't want me to buy it. 57 00:02:28,464 --> 00:02:33,054 Um, but I, I, I remember the products and I remember being super intrigued by it. 58 00:02:33,114 --> 00:02:34,224 Just explain what it is. 59 00:02:35,035 --> 00:02:37,765 So quick background for anyone listening. 60 00:02:37,765 --> 00:02:41,934 Like I started a number of eCommerce, um, businesses over the years. 61 00:02:42,234 --> 00:02:44,784 Um, but I largest one. 62 00:02:47,180 --> 00:02:51,920 Co-founding partners, and there's a brand called loi, uh, om i.com. 63 00:02:52,010 --> 00:02:53,450 And it's a, it's a home composter. 64 00:02:53,450 --> 00:02:57,470 So basically it's a countertop, composter, it's a device, a little bit bigger than 65 00:02:57,470 --> 00:02:58,790 a toaster, smaller than a microwave. 66 00:02:59,090 --> 00:03:03,170 Um, you pop open the lid, put in your food scraps, push a button, and it turns, 67 00:03:03,260 --> 00:03:07,459 uh, your food scraps overnight into, um, something very akin to compost. 68 00:03:08,390 --> 00:03:09,200 And that, that's it. 69 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:15,230 So we launched it in 2021, um, and within two years had done over a hundred 70 00:03:15,230 --> 00:03:17,809 million in revenue, uh, profitably. 71 00:03:17,809 --> 00:03:20,570 So it was just this unbelievable kind of adventure. 72 00:03:20,690 --> 00:03:25,404 I gotta be like the co-founding CMO of, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was great. 73 00:03:26,499 --> 00:03:27,039 No doubt. 74 00:03:27,039 --> 00:03:30,609 I mean, it, it, I, it, it sounds like, I mean, it's one of those products 75 00:03:30,609 --> 00:03:33,879 which actually you kind of go, this is incredible 'cause from memory, 76 00:03:33,909 --> 00:03:37,359 correct me if I'm wrong, Garris, but you could throw anything in there, 77 00:03:37,359 --> 00:03:38,890 chicken bones and all kinds of stuff. 78 00:03:38,890 --> 00:03:40,629 If I got that role was at a certain things. 79 00:03:41,365 --> 00:03:44,875 Yeah, I mean, anything other than big, you're probably gonna start getting 80 00:03:44,875 --> 00:03:46,495 into some trouble with, but like, uh, 81 00:03:47,005 --> 00:03:49,650 reasonable smaller chicken and Okay. 82 00:03:50,559 --> 00:03:51,519 It was, it was incredible. 83 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:52,130 Yeah. 84 00:03:52,239 --> 00:03:53,170 get involved in that? 85 00:03:53,260 --> 00:03:56,109 I mean, it's did, was it just a want ad in the paper or was 86 00:03:56,109 --> 00:03:57,279 it just people that you knew? 87 00:03:57,670 --> 00:03:58,030 No. 88 00:03:58,179 --> 00:04:03,734 Okay, so to get back a, um, all. 89 00:04:07,375 --> 00:04:14,155 I had started a kind of side hustle with a friend of mine and he was, he 90 00:04:14,155 --> 00:04:17,964 had figured out how to sharpen wey, Todd style, like straight razors, you 91 00:04:17,964 --> 00:04:19,825 know, those old timey straight razors. 92 00:04:20,035 --> 00:04:24,145 And we were trying to buy them from a state sales in London, Ontario. 93 00:04:24,505 --> 00:04:27,475 Um, that's the, the, the smaller London in Canada. 94 00:04:27,955 --> 00:04:31,945 Um, and then we were selling them on our Shopify store and. 95 00:04:36,090 --> 00:04:38,760 And those retailers said. 96 00:04:40,780 --> 00:04:45,760 We put these razors in the, in the window at the, kind of like men's goods stores. 97 00:04:45,969 --> 00:04:48,250 We put these razors in the window, but no one buys them 'cause 98 00:04:48,250 --> 00:04:49,270 they're too hard to shave with. 99 00:04:49,660 --> 00:04:53,890 Um, people buy, people always end up buying these double-edged safety razors. 100 00:04:54,310 --> 00:04:57,430 Um, and so that's kind of how we were put onto double-edged safety razors. 101 00:04:57,430 --> 00:05:00,700 And I started looking into the product more and realized there were these 102 00:05:00,730 --> 00:05:02,590 razors that were very easy to shave with. 103 00:05:02,710 --> 00:05:02,890 Um. 104 00:05:04,630 --> 00:05:04,989 Mm. 105 00:05:05,890 --> 00:05:09,700 Like very plastic, full cartridge razors, you know, like Gillette 106 00:05:09,700 --> 00:05:13,390 Shake, all the ones that we're kind of familiar with Wilkinson in the uk. 107 00:05:13,810 --> 00:05:18,489 Um, those have plastic on the cartridges and, um, double-edged safety razors 108 00:05:18,489 --> 00:05:21,070 just use a recyclable, um, single blade. 109 00:05:21,460 --> 00:05:22,989 And so we're like, okay, if we can. 110 00:05:23,155 --> 00:05:23,935 cool, aren't they? 111 00:05:23,935 --> 00:05:24,085 I 112 00:05:24,310 --> 00:05:24,969 And they look kind of cool. 113 00:05:25,599 --> 00:05:29,409 Um, so we figured out a way to make the double-edged safety razor, uh, 114 00:05:29,409 --> 00:05:32,800 adjustable so that no matter if you have like sensitive skin or kind of 115 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,550 more thick, curly, coarse facial hair, like what I need to shave down here, 116 00:05:36,969 --> 00:05:41,800 um, then, uh, then there's kind of like the Rockwell setting for you. 117 00:05:42,099 --> 00:05:43,810 So we, um, had. 118 00:05:45,085 --> 00:05:48,354 Had some initial prototypes made, took it to Kickstarter, and then it 119 00:05:48,474 --> 00:05:54,054 kind of unexpectedly made $150,000 in a month, uh, which back in 2014 120 00:05:54,265 --> 00:05:55,914 was quite a large Kickstarter. 121 00:05:56,304 --> 00:06:00,984 Um, and so while all of my fellow environmental science graduates were 122 00:06:00,984 --> 00:06:05,155 going to work in the, um, Canadian oil sands, which is, uh, what, what you 123 00:06:05,155 --> 00:06:08,695 do with your, with your environmental degree in Canada, you go work in. 124 00:06:14,530 --> 00:06:19,090 Then years later, by 2018, it was kind of like stable. 125 00:06:19,090 --> 00:06:22,239 All the debt that we had taken on to start the business was paid off and were 126 00:06:22,239 --> 00:06:24,340 able to get a management team into place. 127 00:06:24,700 --> 00:06:29,679 Um, so I had a strong kind of stable company, um, with a management team 128 00:06:29,679 --> 00:06:33,400 that gave me the freedom to go kind of explore other, other interests. 129 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:33,969 And so since. 130 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:38,800 Different eCommerce businesses. 131 00:06:38,890 --> 00:06:41,170 Uh, one was called Keto, uh, K-E-Y-T-O. 132 00:06:41,170 --> 00:06:42,580 It's a keto diet breathalyzer. 133 00:06:43,030 --> 00:06:46,900 Um, and we had some really fantastic VCs involved with that. 134 00:06:46,900 --> 00:06:51,250 It did really well until, um, COVID hit and then people just didn't care 135 00:06:51,250 --> 00:06:52,420 about the keto diet quite as much. 136 00:06:52,840 --> 00:06:57,070 Uh, and, and at that time I had already, I knew, um, map. 137 00:07:01,145 --> 00:07:04,744 Um, I guess some, some product ideas, some different ideas around like 138 00:07:04,744 --> 00:07:07,744 a startup studio for eco-friendly products that we talked about. 139 00:07:07,984 --> 00:07:11,255 So when Covid hit, we said, you know, this is the right time 140 00:07:11,255 --> 00:07:12,724 to start that startup studio. 141 00:07:12,724 --> 00:07:18,994 So we, we used the community that they had built at Pela case and used that as a 142 00:07:18,994 --> 00:07:21,544 platform to try launching other products. 143 00:07:21,544 --> 00:07:23,854 And then LMI was the fourth out. 144 00:07:23,974 --> 00:07:26,585 Four different attempts at launching a startup. 145 00:07:27,034 --> 00:07:28,115 We, we did. 146 00:07:28,205 --> 00:07:29,974 Um, and it was by far the most successful. 147 00:07:29,974 --> 00:07:33,185 So I ended up spending a number of years after that kind as the 148 00:07:33,185 --> 00:07:39,005 co-founder CMO of Lomi, while tending to some CMO duties at Pela case. 149 00:07:39,185 --> 00:07:43,655 So that was like a crazy couple of years, basically from 2021 to 150 00:07:43,715 --> 00:07:46,505 2023, um, just about two years. 151 00:07:46,505 --> 00:07:50,015 And then I said, you know, this great, I've had a fantastic time kind of 152 00:07:50,015 --> 00:07:52,745 learning startup studio, uh, building. 153 00:07:53,515 --> 00:07:56,965 Within, within the infrastructure I built with Matt and Brad at Peel Case. 154 00:07:57,325 --> 00:08:01,075 And it was time to go kind of do my own startup studio on my own. 155 00:08:01,075 --> 00:08:03,055 So that's what I, that's what I've been doing since then. 156 00:08:03,565 --> 00:08:06,895 Um, and then interestingly, a part of that, bringing this all full circle, 157 00:08:07,255 --> 00:08:12,460 uh, Rockwell is still doing fantastic to today, so it's kind of part of that, part 158 00:08:12,460 --> 00:08:13,974 of that startup studio, if you would. 159 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:15,340 Um, yeah. 160 00:08:15,445 --> 00:08:19,495 so, so are you still, I, I, there's so much there, Gary. 161 00:08:19,780 --> 00:08:20,070 Yeah. 162 00:08:20,215 --> 00:08:21,505 I'm just trying to figure out where to start. 163 00:08:21,835 --> 00:08:24,385 So the, you are still involved with Rockwell. 164 00:08:24,385 --> 00:08:29,365 Are you still involved with, um, Lomi and the, the phone case, or are 165 00:08:29,380 --> 00:08:32,319 Not, like, not in the day-to-day operations, but you know, still, 166 00:08:32,410 --> 00:08:36,730 um, still like a, a proud supporter and shareholder, so to speak. 167 00:08:36,850 --> 00:08:37,615 Um, yeah. 168 00:08:38,845 --> 00:08:39,685 Fantastic fan. 169 00:08:39,685 --> 00:08:39,925 Wait. 170 00:08:40,195 --> 00:08:41,665 You sure know how to stay busy. 171 00:08:41,755 --> 00:08:44,905 I mean, running three quite significant e-com businesses. 172 00:08:44,965 --> 00:08:47,545 Uh, most people only ever dream of really running one. 173 00:08:47,995 --> 00:08:48,685 You've done three. 174 00:08:48,685 --> 00:08:48,925 So 175 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:49,060 Yeah. 176 00:08:49,540 --> 00:08:49,990 well 177 00:08:50,105 --> 00:08:54,400 it, it did definitely lead to a bit of burnout in, um, towards the end 178 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,110 of the two years with Lomi and PK. 179 00:08:56,110 --> 00:08:58,870 So there are certainly points when there's the realization that it's, 180 00:08:59,140 --> 00:09:01,240 it's an appropriate time to, to take a step back. 181 00:09:01,630 --> 00:09:05,170 Um, but really proud of kind of all the, what's been accomplished. 182 00:09:05,170 --> 00:09:09,100 And we've built some companies that I think are doing genuinely 183 00:09:09,100 --> 00:09:12,400 really good things in the world, reducing plastic usage, um, and 184 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,260 diverting waste from landfill. 185 00:09:14,260 --> 00:09:16,000 So that's, that's exciting to. 186 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:18,580 No, I, and I, I appreciate that. 187 00:09:18,580 --> 00:09:23,470 And I think, um, Rockwell raises, uh, I mean, I don't, uh, I don't really shave, 188 00:09:23,470 --> 00:09:29,920 as you can tell, but I, I remember, um, actually I used to live in a place a, 189 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:31,840 a town called Rockwell fully enough. 190 00:09:31,900 --> 00:09:32,320 Uh, 191 00:09:32,430 --> 00:09:32,720 Okay. 192 00:09:32,830 --> 00:09:36,220 I, I lived in the States and I was, I was, I was visiting some friends a couple 193 00:09:36,220 --> 00:09:40,390 years ago, um, and they showed me, uh. 194 00:09:40,990 --> 00:09:42,970 These sort of double-edged razors that you 195 00:09:43,060 --> 00:09:43,280 Yep. 196 00:09:43,300 --> 00:09:44,110 you are talking about? 197 00:09:44,110 --> 00:09:44,860 Because I'd not seen them. 198 00:09:44,860 --> 00:09:47,050 I thought, you know, my granddad used them kind of years ago and 199 00:09:47,050 --> 00:09:48,580 then they sort of disappeared and. 200 00:09:49,930 --> 00:09:53,560 and I got very excited, uh, when I saw them, uh, back out. 201 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:56,950 And I, I really love the products and I thought, fantastic. 202 00:09:56,950 --> 00:10:02,320 It's both the way you've done it, I think, um, is, is is a good mixture of sort of 203 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:07,720 modern and nostalgia and of, I I, maybe I'm of a certain age, I don't know, but 204 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:14,230 I, when I look at the products you've got on that website, I instantly think of, you 205 00:10:14,230 --> 00:10:16,540 know, like my grandfather that sort of. 206 00:10:17,395 --> 00:10:18,895 man's man generation. 207 00:10:18,895 --> 00:10:20,725 I dunno if I'm allowed to say things like that, but Do you know what I mean? 208 00:10:20,725 --> 00:10:22,795 That's the kind of imagery I have in my head. 209 00:10:23,665 --> 00:10:27,535 I dunno if that's intentional, but it, it, it's, it sort of makes me 210 00:10:27,535 --> 00:10:29,455 go down that in my, in my thinking. 211 00:10:30,715 --> 00:10:33,685 Well, we're trying to kind of leave it, if that's, if you see those kind 212 00:10:33,685 --> 00:10:38,125 of, uh, I guess these old timey sorts of razors, you know, they, they've 213 00:10:38,125 --> 00:10:40,435 appeared in films like James Bond films. 214 00:10:40,435 --> 00:10:41,725 They've been in a number of those. 215 00:10:41,995 --> 00:10:43,195 They featured in Mad Men. 216 00:10:43,195 --> 00:10:45,385 I think that actually, it's interesting, you, me, everything 217 00:10:45,385 --> 00:10:46,495 you just did, 'cause I think that. 218 00:10:46,990 --> 00:10:50,650 Those features in media were kind of a big part of what sparked a resurgence 219 00:10:50,650 --> 00:10:55,840 of interest in, um, safety razor shaving kind around the early 2010s. 220 00:10:56,260 --> 00:11:00,700 Um, and so that's probably, that interest is likely part of the reason that the 221 00:11:00,700 --> 00:11:06,250 initial crowdfunding campaign for the, for our first product did like, well, um. 222 00:11:06,895 --> 00:11:08,005 And yeah. 223 00:11:08,005 --> 00:11:11,935 Beyond that, I think there are, there are lots of safety razors 224 00:11:11,935 --> 00:11:13,405 and safety razor brands out there. 225 00:11:13,735 --> 00:11:18,325 Um, but I think the, there is this perception that they're harder 226 00:11:18,325 --> 00:11:19,915 to use than cartridge razors. 227 00:11:20,155 --> 00:11:21,985 And we can get into why in a second. 228 00:11:21,985 --> 00:11:26,695 It's actually really a marketing thing that the, the big companies 229 00:11:26,695 --> 00:11:28,225 did over many, many decades. 230 00:11:28,615 --> 00:11:29,095 Um. 231 00:11:33,230 --> 00:11:38,600 Quant, easier to use, um, and appropriate for sensitive skin than that. 232 00:11:38,780 --> 00:11:41,930 Um, then that just will make it a little bit more approachable. 233 00:11:41,930 --> 00:11:42,440 And I think that's. 234 00:11:46,765 --> 00:11:47,035 Yeah. 235 00:11:47,035 --> 00:11:50,800 And I imagine, um, customers to your business are quite, 236 00:11:51,470 --> 00:11:53,060 quite a big part in that sense. 237 00:11:53,935 --> 00:11:54,715 A little bit. 238 00:11:54,775 --> 00:11:59,275 Um, so interestingly, not like the idea is that you're buying a really high quality 239 00:11:59,275 --> 00:12:02,995 tool once, and we sell razor blades. 240 00:12:03,055 --> 00:12:05,485 Um, but they're not, they're not, um. 241 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:08,890 We're not the only people that you can buy those razor blades from. 242 00:12:08,890 --> 00:12:10,000 They're not proprietary. 243 00:12:10,510 --> 00:12:11,290 They're not proprietary. 244 00:12:11,350 --> 00:12:12,520 That's, I think that's a big part of it. 245 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,520 We make very good blades, so people often do gravitate towards ours, 246 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:20,770 but I'm not, um, I'm not losing my mind over, like dreaming of all the 247 00:12:20,770 --> 00:12:22,360 profits I'm making out of every. 248 00:12:22,670 --> 00:12:27,050 $10, $12 order of like a reorder of our hundred pack of blades. 249 00:12:27,050 --> 00:12:28,820 We sell them for like just over 10 cents each. 250 00:12:29,150 --> 00:12:31,430 So they're not, it's not a huge profit center for us. 251 00:12:31,820 --> 00:12:36,860 Um, but where I guess we do see repeat orders are someone will often buy one 252 00:12:36,860 --> 00:12:40,310 razor and then will not infrequently see that same customer come back 253 00:12:40,310 --> 00:12:42,590 and buy like two or three, um, and. 254 00:12:44,635 --> 00:12:47,545 Sending surveys to customers, we've, we've learned that those are 255 00:12:47,605 --> 00:12:49,615 indicators of, of gifting purchases. 256 00:12:49,615 --> 00:12:53,095 So someone will kind of discover Rockwell, so to speak, and then begin 257 00:12:53,095 --> 00:12:54,380 gifting it to other people in their life. 258 00:12:55,540 --> 00:13:00,430 So have you guys, um, have you guys then, I should, I've not 259 00:13:00,430 --> 00:13:03,280 really, 'cause I don't, I've not really bought one of your products. 260 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:04,060 I should probably go buy one. 261 00:13:04,450 --> 00:13:08,230 But the, do you guys, have you guys stayed away from the subscription model, 262 00:13:08,290 --> 00:13:12,640 um, you know, like the Harry's and the Dollar Shave Club or, or have you 263 00:13:13,660 --> 00:13:17,650 of done that with like the blades and found something interesting in there? 264 00:13:17,650 --> 00:13:20,410 Or it is it just one time purchases really. 265 00:13:20,835 --> 00:13:22,965 No, we've kept away from the subscription. 266 00:13:22,995 --> 00:13:29,175 I mean, okay, so this is, maybe this is take believe in a way 267 00:13:29,505 --> 00:13:31,425 subscriptions for eCommerce. 268 00:13:32,620 --> 00:13:33,910 You see them pop up a lot. 269 00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:34,660 You might agree with me. 270 00:13:34,660 --> 00:13:39,250 You see them pop up on a lot of brands necessarily have and 271 00:13:39,265 --> 00:13:39,745 Mm-hmm. 272 00:13:42,430 --> 00:13:42,940 capital. 273 00:13:44,485 --> 00:13:49,165 Um, of, of eCommerce and consumer goods over, I'd say kind of the last 274 00:13:49,345 --> 00:13:53,395 10 years, up until about two years ago, people were really looking for 275 00:13:53,635 --> 00:13:59,485 eCommerce, broadly speaking, um, to sort of fit the same economics that consumer 276 00:13:59,635 --> 00:14:01,465 SaaS, consumer software as a service. 277 00:14:01,635 --> 00:14:02,055 Fits. 278 00:14:02,170 --> 00:14:02,460 Fits. 279 00:14:02,465 --> 00:14:08,835 And so they're looking for lifetime value calculations and um, and payback 280 00:14:08,835 --> 00:14:14,025 period calculations and, and all like how, like how long do you keep your 281 00:14:14,025 --> 00:14:16,485 cohorts around and lifetime value? 282 00:14:16,485 --> 00:14:17,235 I think it's great. 283 00:14:17,235 --> 00:14:19,785 Every brand you wanna end up having lifetime value, but I 284 00:14:19,785 --> 00:14:21,015 don't think that subscription is. 285 00:14:23,625 --> 00:14:28,455 Um, and I think it was asked of a lot brands to incorporate when in 286 00:14:32,595 --> 00:14:34,335 paper, uh, cleanings. 287 00:14:34,755 --> 00:14:37,605 A couple other things if you're a forgetful person, but, um, 288 00:14:37,665 --> 00:14:38,835 there's not a lot things. 289 00:14:39,165 --> 00:14:42,375 Physical product things, I think in a consumer's general life that were 290 00:14:42,375 --> 00:14:45,915 like, I could not live without a subscription to this physical product. 291 00:14:46,335 --> 00:14:49,545 Um, so anyways, long-winded answer on why we kept away from it. 292 00:14:49,545 --> 00:14:51,855 I just don't think it's a value add for the consumer. 293 00:14:52,065 --> 00:14:56,655 I think that you can be more successful as a brand, having respect to meet 294 00:14:57,405 --> 00:14:59,960 customers where they're at, and meeting customers where they're at 295 00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:02,205 often means make a great product. 296 00:15:02,980 --> 00:15:07,030 And then serve them with opportunities to share that product with with 297 00:15:07,030 --> 00:15:10,450 others when the opportunity arises, or if they love our blades. 298 00:15:10,510 --> 00:15:16,240 I'd love enough blades to last a couple years, and then that's 299 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:17,950 a fantastic second order to. 300 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,280 Yeah, it's interesting you say this because, I mean, this, 301 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,290 the default model, isn't it? 302 00:15:23,290 --> 00:15:26,410 Is you, you, you, you sell something and then you sell 303 00:15:26,410 --> 00:15:27,940 something on subscription as well. 304 00:15:27,940 --> 00:15:32,590 You know, it's that kind of, and, and the, the idea being I, I suppose 305 00:15:32,590 --> 00:15:34,840 the Gillette model, you know, you buy the razor and then you buy the 306 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,450 cartridges, um, on an ongoing basis. 307 00:15:37,450 --> 00:15:38,950 To give us that ongoing income. 308 00:15:39,310 --> 00:15:43,780 And you do see it, you see it on so many e-commerce sites, you know, you 309 00:15:43,780 --> 00:15:47,170 buy this widget over here and you can buy this thing for the widget on a 310 00:15:47,170 --> 00:15:48,730 monthly standing order if you want to. 311 00:15:49,870 --> 00:15:51,400 And some brands like you say, it makes sense. 312 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,810 Some brands I. You kind of do feel like, well, you've added this 'cause 313 00:15:55,810 --> 00:15:57,640 it's, it's maybe a default model. 314 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,420 I find it really fascinating where a product like yours, which probably 315 00:16:01,420 --> 00:16:05,830 historically would fit slot into that model somehow quite easily, 316 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,420 you've intentionally avoided it, which I, I think is, mean, hats 317 00:16:10,420 --> 00:16:11,620 off to you, sir, for doing that. 318 00:16:13,060 --> 00:16:16,555 I, yeah, I think there's just benefit to meeting customers where they're at. 319 00:16:17,005 --> 00:16:17,365 If we. 320 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:21,850 Aggressive upsells to subscriptions. 321 00:16:21,850 --> 00:16:24,940 There's some amount of customers who would've been considering purchasing 322 00:16:24,940 --> 00:16:28,990 from Rockwell, um, who would've benefited from using Rockwell, either 323 00:16:29,110 --> 00:16:32,770 on environmental level or at like, literally just helping with sensitive 324 00:16:32,770 --> 00:16:35,380 skin or irritate skin irritation problems. 325 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,080 Um, 'cause that's what Rockwell's really good at solving is, is skin 326 00:16:38,110 --> 00:16:40,270 irritation, um, from conventional, multi. 327 00:16:43,260 --> 00:16:46,200 These guys are trying uneasy about that. 328 00:16:47,370 --> 00:16:49,050 Know what percent customers 329 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:53,400 traffic. 330 00:16:58,525 --> 00:17:04,015 Relevant and relevant information and making the brand and product feel 331 00:17:04,015 --> 00:17:08,605 approachable to a consumer rather than exclusively focusing on like, what's the 332 00:17:08,694 --> 00:17:14,545 12 month, 24 month, 36 month LTV, focus on making it a first order profitable brand. 333 00:17:14,755 --> 00:17:17,725 And then explore other ways that we can serve the customer, 334 00:17:17,965 --> 00:17:20,245 um, but not rely on, oh. 335 00:17:27,099 --> 00:17:29,260 You know, subscription that they'll be hooked into, and 336 00:17:29,260 --> 00:17:30,280 then we'll make our money back. 337 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:31,750 It just, that's never set right with me. 338 00:17:32,650 --> 00:17:33,340 Oh, fantastic. 339 00:17:33,370 --> 00:17:36,220 I I, it is, it is quite refreshing to hear, if I'm honest with you. 340 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,430 The, um, not that I have an issue with the subscription model at all, 341 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,129 No, I, it makes a lot of sense for a lot of businesses. 342 00:17:42,129 --> 00:17:45,460 I know people who, who've done really well with it, um, and, and 343 00:17:45,460 --> 00:17:46,690 have served customers really well. 344 00:17:46,690 --> 00:17:49,780 It's just, it, it's a question of like, is that authentic to your brand or not? 345 00:17:49,870 --> 00:17:51,100 Um, and for me it just wasn't. 346 00:17:52,180 --> 00:17:57,370 So how did you, how did you go about finding what was authentic to your brand? 347 00:17:57,370 --> 00:18:03,130 I mean, you did the Kickstarter thing and, and quickly rifling 348 00:18:03,130 --> 00:18:04,750 through the memory banks of 349 00:18:04,975 --> 00:18:05,545 Yeah, 350 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,140 head, 2014, Kickstarter was quite a new thing. 351 00:18:09,325 --> 00:18:09,595 pretty new. 352 00:18:10,330 --> 00:18:11,710 yeah, it was, it was. 353 00:18:12,940 --> 00:18:14,020 I'm, I'm just intrigued. 354 00:18:14,260 --> 00:18:15,070 How did you, how did you. 355 00:18:16,585 --> 00:18:20,629 How did you find, or how have you found this, this voice of your customer? 356 00:18:21,700 --> 00:18:23,860 Yeah, it took I, it took time. 357 00:18:23,860 --> 00:18:29,380 I think we had to, over time learn more about who was drawn to the product itself. 358 00:18:29,590 --> 00:18:31,450 I thought. 359 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,930 A very eco minded kind of customer. 360 00:18:34,930 --> 00:18:37,420 And I think that's because I was projecting a little bit of my own 361 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,900 interests and values onto what I, I was idealizing the customer 362 00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:42,160 that would be drawn to Rockwell. 363 00:18:42,550 --> 00:18:46,540 Um, and I think there's always been an undercurrent of the 364 00:18:46,540 --> 00:18:47,950 customer that understands, hey. 365 00:18:48,275 --> 00:18:49,835 This razor doesn't have any plastic in it. 366 00:18:49,895 --> 00:18:52,745 It doesn't use any plastic, um, in the blades. 367 00:18:52,745 --> 00:18:56,735 So therefore we're, we're not sending a bunch of blades in plastic into landfill. 368 00:18:57,065 --> 00:18:58,385 Um, that can all be recycled. 369 00:18:58,685 --> 00:19:03,035 But the initial traction for Rockwell was more with what I'm gonna call 370 00:19:03,035 --> 00:19:05,045 like a buy it for life type crack. 371 00:19:05,045 --> 00:19:07,925 'cause we made this, our first product was this stainless steel 372 00:19:08,165 --> 00:19:11,645 razor and it genuinely indestructible. 373 00:19:11,885 --> 00:19:12,155 Um. 374 00:19:14,385 --> 00:19:18,045 Don't come after me lawyers, I'm sure it's destruct if you really try. 375 00:19:18,375 --> 00:19:23,685 Um, but like, no, no conventional, reasonable attempts to, uh, to 376 00:19:23,685 --> 00:19:27,254 damage it really seem to leave much of a mark, um, just because it's 377 00:19:27,254 --> 00:19:29,085 made out solid stainless steel. 378 00:19:29,445 --> 00:19:32,985 Um, which is different than, than kind of the plastic stuff that 379 00:19:32,985 --> 00:19:34,004 we're just used to throwing away. 380 00:19:36,415 --> 00:19:39,985 A of, not necessarily an environmental perspective, but 381 00:19:39,985 --> 00:19:44,605 there's different demographic people who are high quality stuff buy for 382 00:19:46,945 --> 00:19:48,235 beautiful, high quality things. 383 00:19:48,265 --> 00:19:52,045 In my um, and time, uh. 384 00:19:52,305 --> 00:19:55,725 That customers continued to exist and be interested. 385 00:19:56,085 --> 00:19:58,695 Um, and we begin to, we began to see a couple of those 386 00:19:58,695 --> 00:19:59,925 like, oh, I wanna buy this. 387 00:19:59,925 --> 00:20:04,875 It's cool And Manly Saw Bond, I saw it on something I kind of associate 388 00:20:04,875 --> 00:20:06,045 with conventional manliness. 389 00:20:06,435 --> 00:20:09,435 Um, and then we've seen like most. 390 00:20:10,570 --> 00:20:14,395 I guess the, the fastest growing customer segment is the, uh, skincare segment. 391 00:20:14,785 --> 00:20:19,615 So, uh, men and women are, are always, are looking more and more 392 00:20:19,615 --> 00:20:21,055 ways to, to take care of their skin. 393 00:20:21,055 --> 00:20:24,595 I think there's been, especially for men and kind of an uptick in, in taking care 394 00:20:24,595 --> 00:20:29,095 of, of skin just a part as a part of like a general health and wellness routine. 395 00:20:29,455 --> 00:20:34,975 Um, and a single blade to shave with, uh, that doesn't involve any of the kind goop. 396 00:20:37,495 --> 00:20:43,255 Kind of coat the, uh, the cartridge blades with, that's just better for your skin. 397 00:20:43,255 --> 00:20:46,375 Like, you don't have all those blades pulling at your, at your hairs. 398 00:20:46,705 --> 00:20:50,275 Um, you just have a single blade, all metal, no plastics 399 00:20:50,275 --> 00:20:53,755 or chemicals or anything like that, um, on the razor itself. 400 00:20:53,755 --> 00:20:56,605 So I think that's really spoken to customers as they become kind of 401 00:20:56,605 --> 00:20:58,495 more health and wellness conscious. 402 00:20:58,885 --> 00:21:02,845 Um, so that's been the 10 year evolution of certainly the main 403 00:21:02,845 --> 00:21:04,855 customer groups that I've noticed. 404 00:21:06,145 --> 00:21:09,895 And is it a case of, uh, as I'm, I'm sitting here thinking about 405 00:21:09,895 --> 00:21:13,885 it, when I sort of first got back 406 00:21:13,980 --> 00:21:14,270 Okay. 407 00:21:14,395 --> 00:21:18,985 form of shaving, I suppose all of a sudden shaving became less 408 00:21:18,985 --> 00:21:20,755 about something that I had to do. 409 00:21:21,595 --> 00:21:26,005 Quickly in front of a mirror between, you know, shower and a 410 00:21:26,005 --> 00:21:30,265 cup of tea and rushing out the door to be in a bit more of a ceremony. 411 00:21:31,015 --> 00:21:36,920 And I, I, I noticed this actually when I, I stopped throwing on the Gillette. 412 00:21:37,885 --> 00:21:43,435 Stuff and just destroy I, I I, all of a sudden I invested in a wooden bowl with 413 00:21:43,435 --> 00:21:48,115 soap and a brush, and I sort of, the whole thing became the old fashioned way. 414 00:21:48,115 --> 00:21:48,565 Do you know what I mean? 415 00:21:48,565 --> 00:21:52,585 It, it, uh, and I, I sort of got sucked into it a little bit and I, and I remember 416 00:21:53,065 --> 00:21:55,555 standing there one morning in front of the mirror going, well, this isn't this 417 00:21:55,555 --> 00:22:00,685 interesting that I've, I've actually created space in my day to do this now. 418 00:22:00,685 --> 00:22:04,585 Like this is some kind of ceremony versus some kind of inconvenience. 419 00:22:06,820 --> 00:22:08,035 It sounds like, um. 420 00:22:14,155 --> 00:22:17,245 Experience and, uh, turned it into something that's 421 00:22:17,245 --> 00:22:18,535 slightly meditative for you. 422 00:22:18,535 --> 00:22:21,565 And I'm just extrapolating that based on your use of the word ritual. 423 00:22:22,045 --> 00:22:25,555 Um, and I, I would say that that's extremely common. 424 00:22:25,795 --> 00:22:28,945 Um, there's actually like a Reddit community called Wicked Edge that 425 00:22:28,945 --> 00:22:32,965 is collectors of double-edged safety raises that, um, that'd 426 00:22:32,965 --> 00:22:34,525 very, we've been very fortunate. 427 00:22:42,220 --> 00:22:48,220 Brush soap, um, bowl stand and razor, uh, that they're using that morning. 428 00:22:48,250 --> 00:22:50,950 They, they, they'll have a different kind of collection of different 429 00:22:50,950 --> 00:22:54,460 soaps, much like some men and some women will have a collection of 430 00:22:54,460 --> 00:22:55,960 different colognes or perfumes. 431 00:22:56,260 --> 00:23:00,340 Um, everyone kind of finds their, their little rituals and their little what, 432 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,220 what is kind of their quiet moment to themselves during the day, and 433 00:23:06,610 --> 00:23:07,270 myself included. 434 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:10,050 Shaving. 435 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:10,710 I don't do it. 436 00:23:10,770 --> 00:23:11,160 I'll do it. 437 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,550 But like once a week kind of on, on Sundays, I had to shave my head as well. 438 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,080 Um, so I shave my, shave my neck, shave the beard, shave my head, all 439 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,100 with kind of a, a double-edged safety razor and very high quality soap. 440 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:24,510 We make, we make a soap as well. 441 00:23:24,870 --> 00:23:28,050 Uh, and a brush and a bowl and all this stuff you just mentioned. 442 00:23:28,050 --> 00:23:29,520 So that's, I think, um. 443 00:23:29,665 --> 00:23:31,045 I mean, it's the whole thing, isn't it? 444 00:23:31,885 --> 00:23:32,335 Exactly. 445 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:38,140 Mm-hmm. 446 00:23:40,945 --> 00:23:45,625 So it it, and I mean, it's fascinating, Gareth and I, and I'm, I'm intrigued 447 00:23:45,625 --> 00:23:50,215 when back on it now, sort of 10, 10 years later, I suppose just over 448 00:23:50,215 --> 00:23:53,395 10 years, isn't it now, uh, when it got launched on Kickstarter, um. 449 00:23:55,345 --> 00:23:58,885 What are, what are maybe the, the sort of the top one or two lessons you've 450 00:23:58,885 --> 00:24:04,195 learned as, as an e-comm entrepreneur that you, maybe you'd wanna share with 451 00:24:04,195 --> 00:24:06,745 others or maybe that you're just, if you could go back in time and tell 452 00:24:06,745 --> 00:24:07,890 yourself this is what you would say. 453 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:12,460 Yeah, it's a great question. 454 00:24:12,460 --> 00:24:17,260 So I think over the years I've learned that there's, there's a million different 455 00:24:17,260 --> 00:24:20,020 things all the time in e-commerce that it feels like you can be doing. 456 00:24:20,050 --> 00:24:23,500 There's so many different apps to be thinking about. 457 00:24:23,710 --> 00:24:27,340 So many different, you've got, you've got email, you have your SMS, you 458 00:24:27,340 --> 00:24:29,080 have conversion rate optimization. 459 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:30,220 You've got. 460 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:32,820 That you need to be thinking about, you need to be thinking 461 00:24:32,820 --> 00:24:34,140 about delivery experiences. 462 00:24:34,140 --> 00:24:38,460 There's just, there's so many different little bits and bobs, um, and I 463 00:24:38,460 --> 00:24:41,610 definitely used to be the person who just like cycles through all the different 464 00:24:41,610 --> 00:24:43,020 inboxes you've gotta be covering. 465 00:24:43,020 --> 00:24:44,880 Oh my God, customer service, then jump into this. 466 00:24:45,090 --> 00:24:48,420 And it's inherently unfocused just because you're trying to wrap your arms 467 00:24:48,420 --> 00:24:52,410 around all the different things that you could be doing and not necessarily 468 00:24:52,410 --> 00:24:54,660 thinking about what you should be doing. 469 00:24:54,660 --> 00:24:55,320 Or even better. 470 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:57,740 So that you don't. 471 00:25:01,180 --> 00:25:05,980 And I think over time, the biggest lesson has been that I can, I can 472 00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:11,320 really understand what needs my focus and attention based on, uh, 473 00:25:11,379 --> 00:25:14,560 assessing a business based on, on what I call the four levers of e-commerce. 474 00:25:14,830 --> 00:25:17,560 So I'll always look at four main things, which is like your 475 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,810 average order value slash offer. 476 00:25:19,810 --> 00:25:24,040 So are you present, are you giving, uh, customers a. 477 00:25:24,275 --> 00:25:26,195 Elegant way to purchase the product. 478 00:25:26,195 --> 00:25:29,225 It clearly makes sense, um, to the customer. 479 00:25:29,225 --> 00:25:32,135 So that's why we have starter kits on Rock Lake. 480 00:25:32,135 --> 00:25:36,035 The Rockwell website is almost entirely optimized to starter kit to give you 481 00:25:36,035 --> 00:25:39,635 everything that you'd need to have that ritual shave right outta the gates. 482 00:25:40,025 --> 00:25:43,625 Um, so that's me thinking about offer leading into a OV. 483 00:25:44,045 --> 00:25:46,655 Um, so you want that average order value to be producing enough. 484 00:25:48,865 --> 00:25:51,835 Room that you can drive traffic to the site. 485 00:25:51,895 --> 00:25:57,535 We'll come back in a moment because conversion, so I've got this strong A 486 00:25:57,865 --> 00:26:00,295 that's got strong gross margin coming out. 487 00:26:00,295 --> 00:26:00,505 It. 488 00:26:02,635 --> 00:26:06,295 It's different for every brand, but let's say on average more than 2.5% 489 00:26:06,385 --> 00:26:09,925 of the traffic that comes into my site, I actually know how much I can 490 00:26:10,165 --> 00:26:14,215 pay, not just per acquisition, which is what most people have to like live 491 00:26:14,215 --> 00:26:15,505 and die on their e-commerce business. 492 00:26:15,505 --> 00:26:17,695 Thinking about, uh, what ROAS can I afford? 493 00:26:17,695 --> 00:26:20,545 But I can actually start looking at what can I pay for traffic? 494 00:26:20,995 --> 00:26:22,105 Um, 'cause I know. 495 00:26:22,390 --> 00:26:24,490 What percent of that traffic converts. 496 00:26:24,550 --> 00:26:28,150 And every time that they convert, I know exactly how much gross margin 497 00:26:28,150 --> 00:26:29,200 that's driving to the business. 498 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,330 So I can calculate what's called contribution margin. 499 00:26:31,810 --> 00:26:32,650 Contribution margin. 500 00:26:32,650 --> 00:26:37,300 As long as you're generating more, more, the more contribution margin than 501 00:26:37,300 --> 00:26:40,301 it costs to actually run the business outside of all your variable costs and 502 00:26:40,301 --> 00:26:43,210 your costs, um, then you're in good shape. 503 00:26:43,510 --> 00:26:48,550 And so then fourth, you can just look at lifetime value, um, extension. 504 00:26:50,395 --> 00:26:54,685 The initial, the initial acquisition, that is a, those are gross margin dollars 505 00:26:54,685 --> 00:26:58,795 that you're gathering without needing to spend market additional marketing dollars. 506 00:26:59,275 --> 00:27:03,235 Um, so I can kind of lay out the business at any point and say, Hey, which of 507 00:27:03,235 --> 00:27:04,465 these things do we need to work on? 508 00:27:04,675 --> 00:27:09,055 And then just focus on that instead of, um, needing to think about 509 00:27:09,055 --> 00:27:11,575 every, everything under the sun all the time and saying, oh my 510 00:27:11,575 --> 00:27:13,075 God, we've optimize everything at. 511 00:27:13,695 --> 00:27:16,780 Mm. It's interesting listening to you talk. 512 00:27:16,780 --> 00:27:22,270 I, as, as I do, I'm, I'm reminded of a, a, I dunno where I heard it. 513 00:27:22,270 --> 00:27:26,560 I, whether it's on a podcast or something, talking about Elon Musk and how, um, 514 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:32,500 his whole thing in business, he's quite unique in how he does it, is like he goes 515 00:27:32,500 --> 00:27:35,860 to the, I don't know, Tesla, whichever one he is particularly interested in. 516 00:27:35,860 --> 00:27:38,890 He goes, right, what's the biggest problem, uh, that we face at the moment? 517 00:27:38,890 --> 00:27:40,450 If we solve it, it's gonna have the biggest. 518 00:27:41,155 --> 00:27:43,855 know, bang freaks book on our business, or it's kinda the biggest impact. 519 00:27:44,575 --> 00:27:48,355 understands what that problem is and he just works solely on that problem. 520 00:27:48,775 --> 00:27:52,345 Uh, which think is, is is quite an interesting to do it. 521 00:27:52,345 --> 00:27:55,015 And he brings in people to help him understand what the problem 522 00:27:55,015 --> 00:27:57,985 is, and then I guess, encourages people to think outside the box. 523 00:27:59,275 --> 00:27:59,845 I don't know. 524 00:27:59,845 --> 00:28:01,165 I've not worked for Mr. Musk. 525 00:28:01,225 --> 00:28:01,675 Um. 526 00:28:02,575 --> 00:28:08,785 But I listening to you talk, I'm kind of reminded of that, that you seem to have 527 00:28:08,785 --> 00:28:11,815 gone from this trying to have an eye on everything to understanding actually 528 00:28:11,815 --> 00:28:15,175 what's the most important thing for me to work on in my business at the moment, in 529 00:28:15,175 --> 00:28:17,605 the context of your fall leave framework. 530 00:28:18,055 --> 00:28:18,835 Let's go do that. 531 00:28:19,735 --> 00:28:22,525 I dunno if I've oversimplified it, but in essence that's what I'm hearing. 532 00:28:23,290 --> 00:28:27,160 Yeah, well, I would say I'm definitely a far cry from, um, dear Mr. Dear Mr. 533 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:33,100 Musk, um, on both an ideological and a just general commercial capacity level. 534 00:28:33,130 --> 00:28:35,080 Um, but I'm, that's fine. 535 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:42,550 Um, uh, but I think my, my system as it were, comes more from a recognition that. 536 00:28:44,425 --> 00:28:46,915 If I give myself the opportunity to run myself ragged, 537 00:28:47,215 --> 00:28:49,555 I apparently will happily do that. 538 00:28:49,855 --> 00:28:53,575 Um, so these are almost guard rails put in place, um, after 539 00:28:53,575 --> 00:28:55,255 a couple hard won lessons. 540 00:28:55,645 --> 00:29:00,505 Um, that, uh, yeah, that unless you're kind of focusing on. 541 00:29:01,210 --> 00:29:06,130 The main thing, um, then you'll focus on a whole bunch of different things 542 00:29:06,130 --> 00:29:09,670 and actually very little will get done, but you'll be completely exhausted. 543 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,380 Um, and that really doesn't help anybody. 544 00:29:11,890 --> 00:29:16,720 Um, so it makes me less of a good husband, son, business partner, everything. 545 00:29:16,990 --> 00:29:19,990 So energy management has actually become, um. 546 00:29:21,355 --> 00:29:25,315 I feel like this four system is as much a business management 547 00:29:25,315 --> 00:29:27,055 system as it is energy management, 548 00:29:29,635 --> 00:29:30,565 umsomewhat of a. 549 00:29:33,355 --> 00:29:34,345 No, it, it makes sense. 550 00:29:34,345 --> 00:29:36,235 I'm curious, how does that work practically though? 551 00:29:36,235 --> 00:29:39,685 Is that like, um, you get together with the management team on a Monday, 552 00:29:39,685 --> 00:29:42,804 you have some conversations around the framework and you are kinda like, right, 553 00:29:42,804 --> 00:29:44,304 this is what I'm gonna do this week. 554 00:29:44,875 --> 00:29:47,695 Um, I mean, practically, how do you, how do you know 555 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,310 Uh, I think you have to be monitoring your numbers. 556 00:29:51,310 --> 00:29:56,770 So if we go back into, um, I guess my, my four levers example, there would 557 00:29:56,770 --> 00:30:00,040 be core metrics across everything that you're, that you're looking at. 558 00:30:00,310 --> 00:30:04,420 Um, the main one, I honestly, I just wanna understand what conversion rate 559 00:30:04,570 --> 00:30:07,330 and traffic levels are and, um, and CPM. 560 00:30:07,330 --> 00:30:08,320 So like how much is that? 561 00:30:08,710 --> 00:30:09,940 How much are we paying in total for 562 00:30:13,540 --> 00:30:14,080 ratio? 563 00:30:17,995 --> 00:30:19,315 New customer acquisition costs. 564 00:30:19,615 --> 00:30:22,675 There's just a couple of core metrics that we're gonna be looking at, and that 565 00:30:22,735 --> 00:30:26,485 almost guides the conversation, Hey, we're seeing new customer acquisition go up. 566 00:30:26,785 --> 00:30:27,445 Why is that? 567 00:30:27,445 --> 00:30:28,075 Let's dive in. 568 00:30:28,105 --> 00:30:30,205 Okay, it's because CPMs went up. 569 00:30:30,205 --> 00:30:32,065 Did CPMs go up across the market? 570 00:30:32,245 --> 00:30:35,395 Do we think that this is just going to be temporary because it was the 571 00:30:35,395 --> 00:30:38,935 week of the American election, so we don't actually need to change anything? 572 00:30:38,965 --> 00:30:40,375 CPMs were just up because they were up. 573 00:30:40,495 --> 00:30:40,915 Everybody. 574 00:30:41,095 --> 00:30:42,355 Okay, no action needed. 575 00:30:42,625 --> 00:30:44,665 Or is it a random week? 576 00:30:44,665 --> 00:30:46,945 We have no idea why CPMs have gone. 577 00:30:47,525 --> 00:30:48,125 Through the roof. 578 00:30:48,305 --> 00:30:51,755 Okay, now we know that we need to dive into our individual ads. 579 00:30:52,265 --> 00:30:57,035 Oh, it turns out that one of the ad settings is completely wrong and like 580 00:30:57,245 --> 00:31:01,115 we're spending all this money on something that we thought was off, or there was 581 00:31:01,115 --> 00:31:04,025 this ad that was performing really well and all of a sudden out of nowhere, 582 00:31:04,025 --> 00:31:05,585 it's just not converting anymore. 583 00:31:05,915 --> 00:31:07,535 Um, we, and we missed that. 584 00:31:11,995 --> 00:31:12,355 Right. 585 00:31:12,895 --> 00:31:15,385 I guess, uh, monitoring sort of system. 586 00:31:15,385 --> 00:31:19,795 But often when I'm working with anyone who kind of works in my, my businesses 587 00:31:19,795 --> 00:31:23,845 at this point, people are pretty good at being proactive, um, about, Hey, 588 00:31:23,875 --> 00:31:27,925 we spotted this, um, it was affecting conversion rate, so even before the, 589 00:31:27,925 --> 00:31:31,645 the Wednesday meeting, um, often we're able to kind of address stuff. 590 00:31:33,070 --> 00:31:37,000 So if you were, um, if you were starting out again today. 591 00:31:38,290 --> 00:31:38,710 Knowing. 592 00:31:38,740 --> 00:31:42,430 I mean, you've, I remember the reason I'm asking, or sort of going down this 593 00:31:42,430 --> 00:31:46,330 road, Gareth, I remember this conversation I had with a chap called Albert Goe. 594 00:31:47,170 --> 00:31:51,880 Um, Albert Goe was a really fascinating fellow, very polarizing, 595 00:31:52,090 --> 00:31:58,930 uh, fellow, died a few years ago, um, an extraordinarily wealthy man. 596 00:31:59,115 --> 00:32:02,290 Um, and I got to know him, uh, and travel with him a little bit. 597 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,620 I, I remember saying to him one day, he's, he was quite. 598 00:32:06,265 --> 00:32:08,995 He made his money in the 1960s, or he started to make his money in the 599 00:32:08,995 --> 00:32:13,885 1960s when in the UK he set up a chain of supermarkets called Quick Save. 600 00:32:14,754 --> 00:32:18,325 The whole idea behind quick save was if you leave the baked beans on the 601 00:32:18,325 --> 00:32:22,165 pallet and people pick the, uh, the tin of baked beans off themselves, 602 00:32:22,165 --> 00:32:23,665 you can charge two pence less. 603 00:32:24,375 --> 00:32:24,665 Okay. 604 00:32:24,715 --> 00:32:27,895 was this whole, this whole kind of way of thinking about things quite 605 00:32:27,895 --> 00:32:32,425 differently to cut costs, um, therefore you could cut prices, therefore 606 00:32:32,425 --> 00:32:34,285 you could attract customers in. 607 00:32:35,185 --> 00:32:36,205 And he did really well. 608 00:32:36,205 --> 00:32:40,195 I mean, he went from being a baro boy to, you know, exceptionally wealthy guy. 609 00:32:41,305 --> 00:32:44,035 And I remember walking with him, I think we're in Germany at the time, 610 00:32:44,035 --> 00:32:46,645 and I said to me, G listen, I, I, I, I've got a question for you and 611 00:32:46,645 --> 00:32:47,785 I'm curious to know the answer. 612 00:32:48,715 --> 00:32:52,705 you had to begin again today, would you do? 613 00:32:53,875 --> 00:32:56,845 knowing what you know about the world, about markets, and so on and so forth. 614 00:32:57,505 --> 00:33:00,205 And before I tell you age's answer, Gareth, I'm curious 615 00:33:00,205 --> 00:33:01,075 to know what your answer is. 616 00:33:02,605 --> 00:33:08,485 I think if you're starting again, anything that's going to build a degree of 617 00:33:08,575 --> 00:33:12,265 community is the, the absolute key thing. 618 00:33:12,685 --> 00:33:16,075 Um, so what I mean by that. 619 00:33:17,020 --> 00:33:19,000 Is, it could be actually a lot of different things. 620 00:33:19,210 --> 00:33:23,800 Some people build email lists, some people build, um, social media followings. 621 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:25,780 Some people build Facebook groups. 622 00:33:25,780 --> 00:33:28,030 Some people build in-person meetups. 623 00:33:28,450 --> 00:33:31,180 Um, but I think the. 624 00:33:31,810 --> 00:33:37,060 Up to now or the, the, uh, generation of e-commerce that I grew up in. 625 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:43,360 Uh, so 2014 kind of onwards into, into now, um, has been the age 626 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:48,940 of, I would say, fairly cheap attention on social platforms, as in. 627 00:33:49,630 --> 00:33:54,325 There's all these people on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok and Snapchat and 628 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:59,410 Pinterest and Reddit and all the other places where you have a ads product. 629 00:33:59,830 --> 00:34:02,770 Um, YouTube as well, obviously a huge, huge platform. 630 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,150 Um, and in the grand scheme of things, renting that attention in the form 631 00:34:07,150 --> 00:34:11,620 of putting an ad into their content has been relatively inexpensive. 632 00:34:11,650 --> 00:34:13,389 Now, of course, in eCommerce, we hear all the. 633 00:34:16,780 --> 00:34:17,530 It doesn't matter. 634 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,810 Like that's what the, that's what the market is charging. 635 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,139 So you have to figure out how to make the ads price work. 636 00:34:23,139 --> 00:34:24,610 Like that's just the price of the auction. 637 00:34:24,610 --> 00:34:25,750 There's no point in complaining. 638 00:34:26,260 --> 00:34:30,340 Um, but when we get to a point where there is nothing that you can do to make things 639 00:34:30,340 --> 00:34:35,320 work, it it, that means that you have to find alternative sources of, of traffic. 640 00:34:35,409 --> 00:34:38,980 And I think that's why we're seeing more and more of these creator led brands. 641 00:34:39,730 --> 00:34:41,320 Stuff like Mr. Starting brands. 642 00:34:41,650 --> 00:34:42,250 Um. 643 00:34:43,734 --> 00:34:48,144 Brands being spun out of startup studios from big multinationals 644 00:34:48,144 --> 00:34:49,464 like L'Oreal and blah, blah, blah. 645 00:34:49,464 --> 00:34:54,204 Like they have some degree of insight around product and visibility 646 00:34:54,204 --> 00:34:57,325 on how they're going to be able to drive traffic and the way 647 00:34:57,325 --> 00:34:58,734 that a mere mortal can kind of. 648 00:34:59,299 --> 00:35:01,609 Do that is to start a, a, a niche community. 649 00:35:01,609 --> 00:35:07,519 Any degree of aggregation of people's attention, um, of your own aggregation 650 00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:11,119 of people's attention that you can ultimately divert to something that you 651 00:35:11,119 --> 00:35:15,829 are selling, um, or some degree of buy button would be, would be the key thing. 652 00:35:15,889 --> 00:35:19,814 So if I was starting again today, I'd likely be going out and either 653 00:35:19,814 --> 00:35:21,919 buying or building communities. 654 00:35:21,919 --> 00:35:22,369 So that's. 655 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:28,850 Places where people with a common interest or um, allegiance have, have gathered. 656 00:35:29,299 --> 00:35:33,410 Uh, and I would be, yeah, I would be trying to, trying to get as much of 657 00:35:33,410 --> 00:35:37,250 that available attention as possible so that I own that attention rather 658 00:35:37,250 --> 00:35:40,430 than needing to rent it, because we don't know what the future renting that 659 00:35:40,430 --> 00:35:42,020 attention looks like at this point. 660 00:35:42,895 --> 00:35:44,005 that's a really interesting answer. 661 00:35:44,485 --> 00:35:48,715 And is I, I mean, yeah, you started out with Rock Crawl, uh, rock roll raises. 662 00:35:51,055 --> 00:35:54,234 Were you aware of, of the aspect of community then? 663 00:35:54,234 --> 00:35:57,714 I mean, I can imagine that actually it's built, it its own sense of community. 664 00:35:57,714 --> 00:36:00,834 You mentioned the Reddit forums earlier on and this sort of, this, this, you 665 00:36:00,834 --> 00:36:03,624 know, we talked a lot about ceremony and stuff like that, but I imagine 666 00:36:03,624 --> 00:36:08,245 it's, it's sort of built this sense of community, but was, was that intentional 667 00:36:08,245 --> 00:36:11,904 or was that just because actually the, you, you, you lucked out a little bit. 668 00:36:11,904 --> 00:36:16,225 You had a great product that kind of created that community and, and 669 00:36:16,225 --> 00:36:18,350 actually at the moment, that's one of the things which is really important. 670 00:36:20,049 --> 00:36:24,400 Um, I think I wasn't as aware of the importance just from 671 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,410 like purely a commerce context. 672 00:36:26,650 --> 00:36:30,460 That wasn't something that in 2014 I was laser focused on because we. 673 00:36:31,945 --> 00:36:36,385 You know, the Tim Ferris four Hour workweek book saying, Hey, you can go 674 00:36:36,565 --> 00:36:40,225 start a landing page with a product that you've just cooked up, and why 675 00:36:40,225 --> 00:36:43,975 don't you run Google and Facebook ads to drive traffic to this landing page? 676 00:36:44,155 --> 00:36:47,215 And if people buy that product, then you should actually make 677 00:36:47,215 --> 00:36:49,345 the product and ship it to like. 678 00:36:49,930 --> 00:36:54,370 That doesn't, that doesn't happen because you can't get 50 purchases 679 00:36:54,430 --> 00:36:59,620 on a landing for and under anymore. 680 00:36:59,620 --> 00:37:01,839 Like unless you're, unless you're. 681 00:37:04,190 --> 00:37:04,410 Mm 682 00:37:07,059 --> 00:37:09,849 Hundreds of, or thousands of pre-orders on a product. 683 00:37:10,149 --> 00:37:14,680 If you've built a community, if you're launching a new barbecue and you own, and 684 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:19,269 you've built a up, a huge YouTube channel of people who are obsessed with barbecues 685 00:37:19,269 --> 00:37:23,140 and you've made the perfect barbecue, uh, for those people, then, then you're 686 00:37:23,140 --> 00:37:26,319 gonna have a fantastic time if you've chosen to launch a barbecue company. 687 00:37:27,354 --> 00:37:28,104 So what do you think? 688 00:37:28,104 --> 00:37:31,524 I mean, I can just hear everybody's sort of listening to the show, you 689 00:37:31,524 --> 00:37:32,455 know, running their own business. 690 00:37:32,455 --> 00:37:33,894 They're going, well, this is great. 691 00:37:33,894 --> 00:37:35,459 You know what channel. 692 00:37:36,115 --> 00:37:38,605 What channels, I guess, have surprised you in building community? 693 00:37:38,605 --> 00:37:40,795 I know people, there's the standard channels, there's a Facebook, there's 694 00:37:40,884 --> 00:37:44,545 Metas, there's obviously YouTube, which makes sense for a whole bunch 695 00:37:44,545 --> 00:37:45,835 of brands in so many different ways. 696 00:37:45,835 --> 00:37:48,685 But, um, are they still the core ones? 697 00:37:48,685 --> 00:37:51,384 Are you finding traction and interest somewhere else? 698 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:51,859 Mm-hmm. 699 00:37:52,214 --> 00:37:56,950 I think the thing that's interesting to me most right now is, um, is 700 00:37:57,310 --> 00:38:00,189 truly now we're social commerce. 701 00:38:01,225 --> 00:38:02,665 The West, let's say. 702 00:38:02,904 --> 00:38:07,765 So social commerce has been how a lot of e-commerce in, uh, Asia, especially 703 00:38:07,765 --> 00:38:09,865 China, has been done for a very long time. 704 00:38:10,225 --> 00:38:14,004 Um, and when I say social commerce right now, practically, that that 705 00:38:14,004 --> 00:38:15,625 effectively means TikTok shops, but 706 00:38:16,015 --> 00:38:19,225 there's no doubt that Instagram and YouTube are. 707 00:38:19,585 --> 00:38:21,835 Mere months behind TikTok. 708 00:38:22,225 --> 00:38:28,435 Um, and that's where creators who have a community are able to promote products. 709 00:38:28,435 --> 00:38:32,395 So creators can now go out and without needing to produce their own product, come 710 00:38:32,395 --> 00:38:40,194 up with a novel formulation for a skincare brand or render CAD designs for a new I. 711 00:38:43,314 --> 00:38:44,035 Barbecues are good. 712 00:38:44,035 --> 00:38:44,754 Let's stay with them. 713 00:38:44,759 --> 00:38:44,930 Yeah. 714 00:38:44,930 --> 00:38:45,169 Yeah. 715 00:38:45,295 --> 00:38:45,835 Barbecue's good. 716 00:38:46,075 --> 00:38:50,335 Uh, render cat designs, put up money to do all the quality control and manufacturing 717 00:38:50,335 --> 00:38:52,315 for thousand barbecues or whatever. 718 00:38:55,944 --> 00:39:00,535 That attention aggregation, uh, we can move over to, to creators who 719 00:39:00,535 --> 00:39:04,914 have the ability to in-app monetize the aggregation of the attention, 720 00:39:05,184 --> 00:39:07,944 which up to now has been really inel. 721 00:39:07,974 --> 00:39:12,714 So in, in a way, it's like the perfection of the affiliate model, and lots of brands 722 00:39:12,714 --> 00:39:14,274 have been built on an affiliate model. 723 00:39:14,544 --> 00:39:19,044 That's where a creator promotes something says, use my code or use my link and 724 00:39:19,044 --> 00:39:20,845 go to the site and then you purchase. 725 00:39:20,845 --> 00:39:22,044 But there's so many. 726 00:39:22,315 --> 00:39:24,175 Opportunities to lose the purchase. 727 00:39:24,175 --> 00:39:30,205 So if I've done a great job, I've become a magical hat influencer, and I go out and 728 00:39:30,205 --> 00:39:35,245 pro promote this hat, and I send someone to a Shopify site, say, use my code. 729 00:39:35,245 --> 00:39:36,145 Don't forget to use my code. 730 00:39:36,145 --> 00:39:40,495 When you click this link and go to this hat website, um, well, I have 731 00:39:40,495 --> 00:39:44,515 to trust that they find a hat that they like, they add it to their cart. 732 00:39:44,515 --> 00:39:47,665 They, they pick a size that actually ends up working out and they don't return the. 733 00:39:48,314 --> 00:39:50,084 And they have to check out. 734 00:39:50,084 --> 00:39:52,664 They have to remember to use my code probably and. 735 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:55,419 It's just, it's, there's a lot of clicks. 736 00:39:55,419 --> 00:39:57,609 There's a lot of opportunities to lose the conversion. 737 00:39:57,849 --> 00:40:01,959 So social shopping is conversions happening in app, whether it's right 738 00:40:01,959 --> 00:40:06,129 now TikTok, but I think it'll be within Instagram, YouTube, and whatnot is 739 00:40:06,129 --> 00:40:10,419 another example of an app that's, that's doing really well in social commerce. 740 00:40:10,450 --> 00:40:13,059 Um, that's kind of nude, is not, it's not actually coming. 741 00:40:15,129 --> 00:40:17,740 Social media platform, it's just its own social commerce platform. 742 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:22,450 And so, um, that's what's most interesting to me right now because it's, it's 743 00:40:22,450 --> 00:40:27,009 letting brands get access to other communities that have been built up 744 00:40:27,009 --> 00:40:32,019 and almost align or ally with many different communities in the form of. 745 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,450 Um, of working with a creator. 746 00:40:34,839 --> 00:40:38,350 So, um, I just think there's it's communities all the way down. 747 00:40:38,620 --> 00:40:42,490 Um, and even if you don't have the bandwidth to build a community right 748 00:40:42,490 --> 00:40:44,200 now, technology is finally emerging. 749 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,049 That lets you ally with them really easily. 750 00:40:47,194 --> 00:40:47,314 I. 751 00:40:47,545 --> 00:40:47,995 Yeah. 752 00:40:48,115 --> 00:40:48,505 Yeah. 753 00:40:48,625 --> 00:40:50,995 And I know I, it's funny, your fellow can, I dunno if you know 754 00:40:50,995 --> 00:40:55,165 Jordan West, your fellow Canadian, who's also a, a podcaster, um, he 755 00:40:55,165 --> 00:40:56,965 is really hot on this at the moment. 756 00:40:57,025 --> 00:41:00,535 I mean, just brands are doing some extraordinary things over 757 00:41:00,535 --> 00:41:02,005 on TikTok with social commerce. 758 00:41:02,005 --> 00:41:04,075 And so, um, yeah. 759 00:41:04,075 --> 00:41:05,245 It's, it's a really big deal. 760 00:41:05,464 --> 00:41:07,265 Gareth, thank you so much for joining us Men. 761 00:41:07,805 --> 00:41:08,765 Uh, really. 762 00:41:08,915 --> 00:41:09,725 No, it's been great. 763 00:41:09,875 --> 00:41:11,615 It's been a fantastic conversation. 764 00:41:12,125 --> 00:41:13,775 Uh, loved it, genuinely loved it. 765 00:41:13,775 --> 00:41:15,694 Super excited by what you guys are doing as well. 766 00:41:15,694 --> 00:41:17,375 And um, yeah, really, really cool. 767 00:41:18,634 --> 00:41:20,285 So, uh, fantastic. 768 00:41:20,315 --> 00:41:21,634 What a great conversation. 769 00:41:21,634 --> 00:41:22,355 That was huge. 770 00:41:22,355 --> 00:41:23,944 Thanks again to Gareth for joining me. 771 00:41:24,154 --> 00:41:25,115 In fact, I should do this. 772 00:41:25,654 --> 00:41:26,134 There we go. 773 00:41:26,464 --> 00:41:27,120 Yes, yes, yes. 774 00:41:27,665 --> 00:41:30,785 Bring out the, uh, the applause from the, the cheesy sound desk. 775 00:41:31,234 --> 00:41:35,285 Uh, make sure you subscribe to the show, wherever you get your podcast 776 00:41:35,285 --> 00:41:37,895 from, because we've got some more great conversations coming up. 777 00:41:37,895 --> 00:41:38,375 And of course. 778 00:41:38,405 --> 00:41:40,265 I don't want you to miss any of them. 779 00:41:40,475 --> 00:41:43,175 And in case no one's told you yet today, let me be the first. 780 00:41:43,175 --> 00:41:44,375 You are awesome. 781 00:41:44,405 --> 00:41:45,695 Yes, you are created. 782 00:41:45,695 --> 00:41:46,115 Awesome. 783 00:41:46,115 --> 00:41:47,825 It's just a burden you have to bear. 784 00:41:47,855 --> 00:41:48,875 Gareth's, gotta bear it. 785 00:41:49,205 --> 00:41:50,105 I've gotta bear it. 786 00:41:50,435 --> 00:41:51,575 You've gotta bear it as well. 787 00:41:51,605 --> 00:41:55,265 Now the eCommerce Podcast is produced by the amazing Pod Junction. 788 00:41:55,265 --> 00:41:59,615 Big shout out to the team, including Ada Fanon, uh, that makes this show possible. 789 00:41:59,615 --> 00:42:03,695 Josh Edmundson wrote the theme music, uh, and of course, as I said, if you'd 790 00:42:03,695 --> 00:42:05,345 like to know more about the show or. 791 00:42:05,370 --> 00:42:07,950 All that sort of stuff, just go to eCommerce Podcast dot net. 792 00:42:08,430 --> 00:42:09,540 Uh, but that's it from me. 793 00:42:09,540 --> 00:42:10,470 That's it from Gareth. 794 00:42:10,470 --> 00:42:12,029 Thank you so much for joining us. 795 00:42:12,299 --> 00:42:14,220 Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world. 796 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:15,299 I'll see you next time. 797 00:42:15,569 --> 00:42:16,020 Bye for now.