1 00:00:00,184 --> 00:00:02,044 Carlos: You didn't hear any of that music in the background? 2 00:00:02,257 --> 00:00:02,617 Mark: Yes. 3 00:00:02,780 --> 00:00:03,110 Carlos: Oh God. 4 00:00:03,115 --> 00:00:04,025 Ben: That wasn't an echo. 5 00:00:04,250 --> 00:00:04,940 That was music. 6 00:00:10,043 --> 00:00:10,943 Carlos: Welcome everyone. 7 00:00:10,948 --> 00:00:23,823 Thank you very much for joining us to the Happy Pricing Podcast Uh, and we are really happy to have Mark Steadman join us, uh, who inspired the topic of today. 8 00:00:24,283 --> 00:00:26,503 I'm nearly, and I was quite amused by that. 9 00:00:26,503 --> 00:00:34,723 I'm nearly doubling my prices for 2023, which is like, I, I found, yeah, this is quite cuddly and amusing. 10 00:00:35,023 --> 00:00:43,543 And after, as he put it, criminally, I love that, criminally undercharging for his services. 11 00:00:44,288 --> 00:01:09,970 For those of you who, who may have, uh, stumbled across this, and are in a place of thinking, uh, I would like to increase my prices, uh, and maybe nearly double them, but I'm not sure how to do that and what that means, I thought we'd have a conversation with Mark to learn about his approach, what motivated him, I don't essentially have him share however much he wants to share about this, 12 00:01:09,970 --> 00:01:20,610 this process, to give you guys a, a window into what it's like doing this for real, rather than just reading off a book or listening to some guy on YouTube telling you how to double your prices. 13 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:30,000 And also to give us an opportunity to maybe connect it to some of the things that we talk about on the Happy Pricing course, uh, to to ground. 14 00:01:30,525 --> 00:01:36,395 What we talk about, which, you know, might seem a bit, um, academic, with actual real life stories. 15 00:01:36,395 --> 00:01:44,795 'Cause there's, there's the do, there's the theory and then there's the actual practice and, and how that feels, I think is the other thing I'm really curious about is like that, that boldness that is required. 16 00:01:45,215 --> 00:01:47,045 So I'm gonna hand over to Mark now. 17 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:56,060 Uh, to just kind of maybe just share, let's start by sharing for those of the listeners who don't know you, uh, and what you do, share a bit about that. 18 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:01,990 Uh, and then some context to why doubling your prices is, is important to you this year. 19 00:02:02,401 --> 00:02:02,671 Mark: Thank you. 20 00:02:02,671 --> 00:02:03,061 Hello. 21 00:02:03,692 --> 00:02:05,102 Uh, my name is Mark. 22 00:02:05,132 --> 00:02:13,412 I am a podcast consultant and I work with people who are in, they're contemplating their second mountain. 23 00:02:13,412 --> 00:02:19,219 so they've, spent a career learning, doing, making, and they're now in a position where they want to give back. 24 00:02:19,219 --> 00:02:24,109 And, um, often that involves trying to change the world or change their little corner of the world. 25 00:02:24,109 --> 00:02:30,289 And so I like to, uh, try and help people use their voice to do that because, um, I think it's the most persuasive tool that we have. 26 00:02:30,659 --> 00:02:50,879 That is, uh, something that's evolved over a few years because when I started as a podcast editor back in, uh, when, when I got my first paid gig to edit podcasts back in 2016, it was very much, I mean, I was found on peopleperhour.com by someone who said, um, you are a little bit expensive. 27 00:02:50,909 --> 00:02:53,639 This was the first time I'd, uh, I'd charged for podcast editing. 28 00:02:53,999 --> 00:02:55,499 Can you undercut a little bit? 29 00:02:55,580 --> 00:02:57,140 and so I did that. 30 00:02:57,420 --> 00:03:06,121 And I charged what I thought at the time would be the rate that would support what I wanted to do. 31 00:03:06,571 --> 00:03:15,451 And what that really was, was a rate that one person said that they could afford, not a rate that was necessarily commensurate with the people that I'd like to work with. 32 00:03:15,841 --> 00:03:32,008 Um, because one of the things that I know comes up a lot in these conversations is how pricing is a signal and it's a signal to who you want to work with is signal to and about the people that you wanna work with, and the investment that those people wanna make in what you do together. 33 00:03:32,278 --> 00:03:38,608 Um, that's not just a financial investment, but it's a, uh, it's an investment of time and energy and all sorts of things as well. 34 00:03:38,908 --> 00:03:48,323 Um, and so where I got to the point where at the end of last year, I wanted to double my prices, and I think that that phrase, I'm nearly doubling my prices could mean two things. 35 00:03:48,323 --> 00:03:55,928 It could mean I, I haven't decided yet, um, or I am getting to, uh, a hundred and, uh, a, you know, a hundred percent more. 36 00:03:56,138 --> 00:04:01,088 So, yeah, I, I made the decision that I wanted to increase my prices. 37 00:04:02,048 --> 00:04:10,103 That, for me, felt like the kind of thing you only really get to do once every few years as a remedial measure. 38 00:04:10,103 --> 00:04:12,953 It might not be the right word, but as a, as a corrective measure. 39 00:04:13,283 --> 00:04:37,283 Um, because I'd done it, um, a few years ago and I got to one particular level, and then at the end of last year, I thought after the conversations I was having with certain people and realizing what I could offer that was different from what other people were offering, then it was time to start charging what was more appropriate for that work, um, and try not to compete on, on price. 40 00:04:37,793 --> 00:04:43,523 Carlos: You said something about there's only certain opportunities or times to double your prices or increase your prices. 41 00:04:43,523 --> 00:04:44,393 I can't remember what you said, 42 00:04:44,603 --> 00:04:46,283 Mark: to increase them so dramatically. 43 00:04:46,283 --> 00:04:50,723 I think there's always time to increase your prices, but to, to do, to take such a big jump. 44 00:04:51,053 --> 00:04:51,353 Carlos: To start. 45 00:04:51,533 --> 00:04:51,773 Okay. 46 00:04:51,773 --> 00:04:55,133 So there's like a windows of opportunity that that's where that's possible. 47 00:04:55,469 --> 00:04:55,859 Okay. 48 00:04:56,095 --> 00:05:05,733 And then this idea of charging appropriately given this unique shift or unique sense of value that you are offering. 49 00:05:05,733 --> 00:05:10,173 And that's, that's kind of, one of the motivations to, to charge differently. 50 00:05:11,253 --> 00:05:17,888 And then the other thing I heard was around this group of people that you talk about, these change makers that you wanna work with and help. 51 00:05:18,308 --> 00:05:26,870 Um, actually you didn't say this, but you've shared it with us before, you wanna make this accessible because there's a broad range of capacities to pay as I understand. 52 00:05:27,130 --> 00:05:37,723 So there's a, there's a not demographic, I'm not sure if it's a psychographic, but there's like a bunch of people with a certain intention to do stuff in the world, and they also have a range of ability to pay. 53 00:05:37,935 --> 00:05:38,385 Mark: Yes. 54 00:05:38,385 --> 00:05:52,333 And also I think one of the things that I, I find is that when people get into the medium when, when people start picking up a microphone and using it, they I think more often than not, find it more edifying than they'd realized beforehand. 55 00:05:52,333 --> 00:06:00,183 And so I know that, and I know that there's, it can be a, an enriching experience and it can help their business and it can help themselves as well. 56 00:06:00,783 --> 00:06:06,987 But you can't, you can tell people that, but you can't make them, experience that or believe that until they experience it for themselves. 57 00:06:06,987 --> 00:06:17,497 And so it can be, or there's an argument to say it's unfair to try and make someone pay this, this large amount of money for something that they can't yet see how that's gonna prove out. 58 00:06:17,917 --> 00:06:30,555 And so there are people who are able, not prepared, but able to take that longer view because they, you know, they, they've got a bit more margin that they can say, Okay, like I can see the value in this. 59 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,045 I'm willing to experiment, and if it doesn't pan out, that's okay. 60 00:06:33,045 --> 00:06:35,535 I haven't lost my, you know, lost my shirt over it. 61 00:06:35,775 --> 00:06:47,235 But then there are other people who feel they're in a much, much, either in a much tighter spot or they really have that sense of like, I, I really don't know if I'm gonna enjoy this, if it's actually gonna deliver the things that you, you say it's gonna deliver. 62 00:06:48,105 --> 00:06:57,955 So for them, I wanted to make sure that I still had provisions so that I, I wasn't sort of leaving, leaving those people, that can use this kind of work. 63 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:10,655 Because one of the, I'll say very quickly, I think one of the things that you see, that I see a lot in the medium is people go from zero to podcast and there's so many steps in between that people don't, that you don't know what you don't know. 64 00:07:10,745 --> 00:07:18,185 And, um, part of what I do is auditing podcasts, is helping people get that sense of like, what are the gaps, what are the bits that I'm not quite grasping? 65 00:07:18,605 --> 00:07:25,025 But I began to realize where these gaps are, where these things are that people, people don't know. 66 00:07:25,085 --> 00:07:25,325 And. 67 00:07:25,866 --> 00:07:35,886 I wanted to make sure that I could provide services for those people to be able to make, help them make the best thing that they can with the resources they have available. 68 00:07:36,316 --> 00:07:38,236 Ben: Um, my first question is to go back a stage. 69 00:07:38,476 --> 00:07:41,896 When you said the nearly doubling your prices could mean two things. 70 00:07:42,016 --> 00:07:46,966 It could mean you are about to do it or you are nearly doubling, which one are you? 71 00:07:47,303 --> 00:07:49,073 Mark: I am nearly doubling. 72 00:07:49,733 --> 00:07:50,183 So like. 73 00:07:50,183 --> 00:07:53,153 Ben: So you have done it and it is nearly twice the amount. 74 00:07:53,213 --> 00:07:53,543 Mark: Yes. 75 00:07:53,731 --> 00:08:07,700 For, for specific work that I do, which we, I know, you know, some of the conversations that, that happen are around selling your time and, and, and that not necessarily being something that we always wanna do, but you know, that there is a time aspect to, to what this work is. 76 00:08:07,700 --> 00:08:09,770 You know, it's delivering a thing and it takes a certain amount of time. 77 00:08:10,100 --> 00:08:14,960 And so it's, it's that kind of work that I am making a, a big increase in. 78 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:29,395 Because one of the things that is really prevalent is how much of a race to the bottom there is in some of the aspects of what I do, which is effectively, helping stitch audio together or, uh, cut bits out and making it louder. 79 00:08:29,455 --> 00:08:31,975 You know, that's, that's kind of, you know, that's it. 80 00:08:32,515 --> 00:08:37,795 But there's a lot more that goes into it than, than just those, those aspects because they can easily be farmed out. 81 00:08:38,089 --> 00:08:41,306 That, that, that's not a hugely skilled, task. 82 00:08:41,636 --> 00:08:48,866 Where the skill is, is knowing certain little aspects of, if you make these kinds of cuts, then you've gotta, uh, think about this. 83 00:08:48,866 --> 00:08:58,762 It's thinking about when I'm writing show notes, listening to the episode critically or, um, actively, and being able to write, um, show notes that accompany the episode. 84 00:08:59,072 --> 00:09:10,482 It's those sorts of things that take a bit more skill, and have been, or I have been, I think undervaluing because they are useful and important and, and, and valuable things. 85 00:09:11,382 --> 00:09:19,902 And getting more to that thing of like, trying to focus and hone in on like, what's the stuff that only I can do or, you know, that I can do only in my particular way. 86 00:09:20,534 --> 00:09:23,234 Carlos: I'm a customer of Mark's call disclosure. 87 00:09:24,524 --> 00:09:30,664 So on one hand, might feel a little bit uncomfortable, but on the other hand, I'm a perfect person to talk to. 88 00:09:31,913 --> 00:09:47,741 Mark: Well, one of the things, one of the things that, that I will say right off the bat is, um, and I, I, when I, when I announced this on LinkedIn, I said that this wasn't affecting preexisting relationships because that seems, I think, I think it's, it's one thing to up your prices 89 00:09:47,746 --> 00:09:55,511 commensurate with, you know, various things, but to double your prices for people that are already working with you, that's a different discussion. 90 00:09:55,511 --> 00:09:59,771 I'm not saying whether that's good or bad, but that's not a discussion that, you know, I was, I was gonna have with myself. 91 00:10:00,591 --> 00:10:01,666 Carlos: I thought we had that discussion now. 92 00:10:01,666 --> 00:10:03,136 I thought, well, this was a contract process. 93 00:10:03,376 --> 00:10:05,836 Like, oh, we're gonna renew, negotiate our rates today. 94 00:10:05,836 --> 00:10:11,026 Carlos, I've been emboldened by your Happy Writing podcast. 95 00:10:11,026 --> 00:10:13,906 Mark: And yeah, that is a bold move to do, to do that in public. 96 00:10:14,177 --> 00:10:15,767 Carlos: So what I'm gonna say, there's a couple of things. 97 00:10:15,767 --> 00:10:20,697 First, there's just a boring thing's like, uh, my, I say English isn't my first language. 98 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:21,987 Um. 99 00:10:22,427 --> 00:10:23,297 Mark: Pricing is. 100 00:10:24,677 --> 00:10:28,821 Carlos: You said something around podcasting, being edifying or something like that. 101 00:10:28,826 --> 00:10:29,811 This experience being edifying. 102 00:10:30,171 --> 00:10:32,181 Can you explain what you meant by edifying? 103 00:10:32,928 --> 00:10:39,708 Mark: I love having conversations when, so every now and again, I'll, I'll check in with people and I'll, I'll sort of, you know, say how, how's the process going for you? 104 00:10:40,495 --> 00:10:41,905 Uh, what are you getting out of it? 105 00:10:41,905 --> 00:10:45,745 Because I'm, I'm much more interested in that than like, let's look at your downloads. 106 00:10:45,745 --> 00:10:48,535 Because if that's something that people wanna measure, then that's cool. 107 00:10:48,835 --> 00:11:00,355 But one of the conversations that I I love having is when people say, Yeah, I, I didn't, I never real, like I was chatting to someone yesterday and said, I never realized how much I was going to learn about my business. 108 00:11:00,445 --> 00:11:08,245 I'm supposed to be an expert in this particular topic, and I've learned so much by having conversations with other people in this space. 109 00:11:08,625 --> 00:11:10,825 And that just made me so happy. 110 00:11:10,825 --> 00:11:29,155 Now, um, when you can approach something from that, that point of curiosity and also thinking about how you can serve and, and, and all these things that we know about, but that curiosity being a really interesting thing, if, if you approach it from that rather than like, let's push out some more content, let's interview this person because it's, it's Tuesday. 111 00:11:29,155 --> 00:11:38,175 And, and that's when we interview people instead looking at what am I gonna learn from this person that can, that can help me or that can, you know, teach me about my own business? 112 00:11:38,265 --> 00:11:46,235 Then there's a whole other aspect of people who'd never realized what they were capable of, and the barriers that they were able to push through that. 113 00:11:46,415 --> 00:11:49,895 Um, they, they never considered pushing through before using their voice. 114 00:11:50,310 --> 00:11:52,620 Even things like writing or, or, or editing. 115 00:11:52,620 --> 00:11:58,800 You know, like anything from, I'm not a technical person, I can't figure this stuff out all the way through to. 116 00:11:58,837 --> 00:12:05,137 I was sat weeping in front of a microphone because I didn't know how to express this particular thing, and I got so frustrated. 117 00:12:05,377 --> 00:12:06,817 I've experienced that whole gamut. 118 00:12:06,877 --> 00:12:13,007 And so that's what I think about, um, as one aspect of how edifying podcasting can be. 119 00:12:13,497 --> 00:12:17,520 Carlos: You, you talked about, well, you know, I do this editing stuff. 120 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:18,600 I check out the volume. 121 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,050 You know, this is kind of stuff that's kind of mechanical, lots of people can do. 122 00:12:22,470 --> 00:12:24,549 And I do this other stuff. 123 00:12:25,016 --> 00:12:33,168 and I just wanted to say for me, the other thing that is of very unique value is, uh, trust. 124 00:12:33,474 --> 00:12:38,412 There's this guy I know and I, I, I know he's just a good guy. 125 00:12:38,508 --> 00:12:38,928 Full stop. 126 00:12:39,006 --> 00:12:41,226 As opposed to some guy on Fiverr who I don't know. 127 00:12:41,779 --> 00:12:49,831 And there's this guy who knows me and my work and the message that I'm trying to communicate and the intention behind it, 128 00:12:50,161 --> 00:12:52,351 Mark: and maybe your constraints and, and things like that as well. 129 00:12:52,429 --> 00:12:52,819 Carlos: Exactly. 130 00:12:53,662 --> 00:12:56,962 Ben: I'm kind of curious, what, what is it that you think people are buying from you? 131 00:12:57,222 --> 00:12:59,022 Mark: I think it varies. 132 00:12:59,322 --> 00:13:05,672 There are some people who, who I've worked a little bit more transactionally with, and that's like, let's deliver a thing. 133 00:13:06,062 --> 00:13:08,442 Uh, and they tend not to come back. 134 00:13:08,502 --> 00:13:11,892 I don't think that's because we had a bad experience. 135 00:13:11,892 --> 00:13:13,482 It, it tends to be, yeah. 136 00:13:13,482 --> 00:13:24,812 I, I wanted to try this thing out and, and I, you know, I figured out how much uh, how, how this would help me, or I had expectations that weren't necessarily met because, uh, I had this understanding of what podcasting is. 137 00:13:24,812 --> 00:13:26,582 And then I started working with Mark and he was like, whoa. 138 00:13:27,181 --> 00:13:27,571 So, yeah. 139 00:13:27,571 --> 00:13:33,121 So that, that is the one half, I guess is, uh, is the transactional stuff or, or a, a, a fifth maybe. 140 00:13:33,121 --> 00:13:44,559 I think the rest of it, I would like to think it's a sense of, like if I say a safe pair of hands, I think that can, that can be a little bit, that can mean like, yeah, I know I can throw in some audio and it's gonna come out okay. 141 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:45,939 But I think it's much more than that. 142 00:13:45,939 --> 00:13:50,769 I think it's about having our initial conversations and people feeling safe, people feeling so. 143 00:13:51,494 --> 00:13:58,544 I talk about this a lot and because it was something that, um, meant a lot to me when I was, uh, at university my last year, we were all stressed. 144 00:13:58,544 --> 00:14:02,774 We were all thinking like, are we gonna make our, like, are we gonna fail this year? 145 00:14:02,779 --> 00:14:09,471 We were, a group of us were sitting around with our dissertation tutor or advisor or whatever he was, professor Tim Wall. 146 00:14:09,981 --> 00:14:11,800 And there's about four of us. 147 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,940 And we, we were all saying how stressed we were and we, we think, you know, we're, we're gonna fail. 148 00:14:15,970 --> 00:14:18,520 And he said, I won't let you fail. 149 00:14:19,390 --> 00:14:35,860 And what that meant was, I'm not gonna do the work for you, but I'm going to make sure that if you need someone on your arse to chivvy you along to get you to where you need to be, if you need to bounce ideas or if you're feeling lost, I am there to catch you. 150 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,780 And, and so for me, it's like, if you work with me, I'm not gonna make you look silly. 151 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:42,640 You are not gonna look foolish. 152 00:14:42,820 --> 00:14:46,030 You're not gonna sound like you dunno what you are talking about. 153 00:14:46,030 --> 00:14:47,590 You are gonna sound your smartest. 154 00:14:47,710 --> 00:14:53,080 And if there are areas where I can help you sound even smarter, um, then we'll work on that. 155 00:14:53,080 --> 00:15:01,690 But that sort of sense of safety to me is, is really important and that's what people have communicated to me that is valuable in working with me. 156 00:15:01,690 --> 00:15:02,170 Ben: Yeah. 157 00:15:02,230 --> 00:15:02,440 Yeah. 158 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:03,910 And I, I would agree with all of those. 159 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:13,150 So if, if you, uh, what, what are some of the common reasons that you think that people choose to kind of step into the kind of podcasting, podcasting endeavor? 160 00:15:13,150 --> 00:15:16,960 Why, why do you think people make a decision that they want to try it? 161 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,600 What is it that they're trying to change, do you think? 162 00:15:19,908 --> 00:15:21,108 Mark: There are different reasons. 163 00:15:21,108 --> 00:15:35,313 I think some people go into it because they want to get more business, and that they've heard successful podcasts as a way of being able to generate leads and, and, um, and, and perhaps generate income as well. 164 00:15:35,663 --> 00:15:43,073 And then there's, there's an another set of people who just wanna, who wanna build community and build a space, um, uh, hold a space. 165 00:15:43,133 --> 00:15:46,623 Um, and then there's others who actually have a sense of service and education. 166 00:15:46,623 --> 00:15:53,883 Like I was working with, um, a couple of of people this morning who, like, I asked them, what do you want out of this podcast? 167 00:15:54,194 --> 00:16:08,684 And what they gave back to me is a load of reasons why the listener benefits, which is usually the thing I'm, or sometimes is the thing I'm having to drag people towards is like, okay, this is great, i, I, I understand how this will be helpful to you, but let's think about the listener. 168 00:16:09,054 --> 00:16:19,779 Um, and they, they were so focused on, this is about educating, this is about, you know, and almost a little bit shy to say, like, and we also hope it'll be a bit of a, you know, beacon for the business. 169 00:16:19,779 --> 00:16:21,939 It's like, no, that's ab that's absolutely fine. 170 00:16:21,969 --> 00:16:27,708 That's an okay thing for it to be, but it has to start from that point of view of like, what can we do? 171 00:16:27,708 --> 00:16:28,728 How can we benefit? 172 00:16:28,728 --> 00:16:34,878 Because for no other reason, other than it's a hell of a lot of podcasts, there's four and a half million podcasts. 173 00:16:35,573 --> 00:16:37,613 Um, that's not episodes, that's podcasts. 174 00:16:37,643 --> 00:16:43,463 And you know about, uh, I can't remember, it's about 500,000 of them are active, but that's still a lot of podcasts. 175 00:16:43,853 --> 00:16:57,263 You've gotta find ways to differentiate, and we can talk about niching down, but the other way to differentiate is making sure that you are actually really there to, to serve the other person, to serve the listener rather than, um, necessarily serving your, your ego. 176 00:16:57,625 --> 00:16:59,065 Ben: Carlos, you were saying you have an answer. 177 00:16:59,261 --> 00:16:59,981 Carlos: Yeah, well. 178 00:16:59,981 --> 00:17:01,301 Ben: Generally I have the answer. 179 00:17:01,366 --> 00:17:02,831 Carlos: What, what am I buying off of Mark? 180 00:17:03,341 --> 00:17:06,041 Um, I, I've got very simple answers, to be honest. 181 00:17:06,611 --> 00:17:14,827 Initially of if I was gonna take a Maslow's hierarchy aspect, uh, approach to this, bottom of the rung, you know, bottom base, uh, time. 182 00:17:15,027 --> 00:17:16,287 Don't have time to edit. 183 00:17:16,347 --> 00:17:17,787 I don't have time to publish. 184 00:17:17,907 --> 00:17:19,887 I don't have time to look into technology. 185 00:17:19,917 --> 00:17:24,023 I could do it, and I have been doing it in my first one, but I just didn't have the time. 186 00:17:24,282 --> 00:17:26,952 And to be honest, I could do that by just buying some time off of Fiverr. 187 00:17:27,657 --> 00:17:35,910 the second rung is I don't enjoy writing, and I feel bad, for want of a better word, for not doing enough writing. 188 00:17:36,810 --> 00:17:41,610 But I love speaking and I love talking, and I love exploring ideas out loud. 189 00:17:42,330 --> 00:18:04,469 And so having the opportunity to do that without having to worry about the technology, and then also learning about how to turn those audio words into written words, and discovering there's a process of writing that isn't just about a black sheet of paper, but also a voice that then fills that black sheet of paper, which I then turn into words, 190 00:18:04,673 --> 00:18:13,976 that's been a really helpful in terms of this edifying experience of like, ah, there's a way in to creating written content for me that isn't just a black sheet of paper. 191 00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:18,911 And then towards the top there's this real sense of, okay, this is me. 192 00:18:19,101 --> 00:18:21,356 This is how I communicate. 193 00:18:21,776 --> 00:18:24,116 This is my way of sharing and helping. 194 00:18:24,806 --> 00:18:30,296 And then from that place, it's like, how can I help the people that I want to help better? 195 00:18:30,986 --> 00:18:41,118 And I think, oh, I wonder if there is a way to use my voice to educate and instruct people in a way that's unique to me. 196 00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:52,320 And the way how, how I like to communicate how I, and maybe their little audio courses or their little, I love the kind of the, the story based audio, but I have no idea how to do it. 197 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:57,180 And I'm not sure how it links to my audience, but there's, there's a, a creative urge there as well. 198 00:18:57,486 --> 00:19:17,896 And then the other element of this as well is like, I'm at a stage where our business isn't doing too badly, and so I have a capacity to pay which means that I am able to, you know, if I look at my own hourly rate compared to the hourly rate of doing, you know, having someone else, in this case Mark, edit a podcast, there's that. 199 00:19:18,106 --> 00:19:32,725 But also there's this other investment in like, if I am able to create evergreen content with my voice, that creates value not only for my community now, but my community in the future, then that feels like a worthwhile investment. 200 00:19:32,725 --> 00:19:32,875 Ben: Mm-Hmm. 201 00:19:32,875 --> 00:19:36,625 Carlos: And this now goes beyond editing a podcast and releasing it. 202 00:19:36,715 --> 00:19:36,805 Ben: Mm-Hmm. 203 00:19:36,805 --> 00:19:46,975 Carlos: This goes beyond how do we create this package, this thing that I can then repeatedly share that others, I get more value repeatedly from, my customers. 204 00:19:46,975 --> 00:19:52,832 Get more value repeatedly from, and uses this new skill that I've learned over a couple years. 205 00:19:53,059 --> 00:20:10,969 Ben: And you know, within that then what becomes important is the accountability, the support, the safety, the reliability, the knowledge, the insight, the experience that Mark would bring that makes all of that possible given how important it is to, you know, where your business is going and what what you are doing. 206 00:20:11,269 --> 00:20:17,119 And so, you know, by what that aids of course is, the transactional stuff isn't important. 207 00:20:17,179 --> 00:20:18,469 Yes, it's transactional. 208 00:20:18,474 --> 00:20:22,049 It's just part of the kind of package, but actually, what people are buying. 209 00:20:22,049 --> 00:20:27,359 And I know this also from my own experience 'cause you also helped me do on the other podcasts that I do as well. 210 00:20:27,539 --> 00:20:37,049 And that, you know, like if I think about my own intent and ambition for that, like we've spoken about this idea that it is a virtual campfire, a place where people can meet. 211 00:20:37,049 --> 00:20:43,829 So what you can bring there is, you know, the uh, you know, is some accountability, is some consistency, is some guidance. 212 00:20:44,069 --> 00:20:48,539 You know, if that's the goal, you need to be doing things in this way, you know, with this frequency. 213 00:20:48,599 --> 00:20:55,864 And I can sort of hold you to that and support you to that, and also provide the insight, which means that my objectives for it are met. 214 00:20:56,419 --> 00:21:07,159 And so all of that insight, all of that safety, all of that support, all that accountancy, that is where the value is, you know, that, you know, there is a transactional component is not actually the point. 215 00:21:07,159 --> 00:21:12,799 And in a way, for your positioning not on Fiverr is probably quite a good sort of positioning. 216 00:21:12,829 --> 00:21:13,999 'Cause that's the point, isn't it? 217 00:21:13,999 --> 00:21:17,809 You can, you can draw distinction, which is relevant to what you charge. 218 00:21:17,809 --> 00:21:24,424 It's relevant to what, what other people will pay by saying, if you are interested in transactional, I recommend you go to Fiverr. 219 00:21:24,874 --> 00:21:27,214 I'm not going to be those people. 220 00:21:27,214 --> 00:21:28,564 I don't work in that way. 221 00:21:28,804 --> 00:21:31,264 I work with people in this way for these reasons. 222 00:21:31,774 --> 00:21:38,404 And then you are tapping into what their motivation, what my motivation is a for customer or Carlos's is, or ours is collectively on this. 223 00:21:38,644 --> 00:21:42,454 And then it's about the sup, the support and the guidance to help those things happen. 224 00:21:42,454 --> 00:21:54,149 And that's a completely different space to can I buy somebody on Fiverr who can take all of my ums and ahs and like out of my sort of conversation of which there are many, but kind of easily removed. 225 00:21:54,539 --> 00:21:56,789 So, it's a positioning thing as much as anything. 226 00:21:57,239 --> 00:22:14,089 And I think, you know, where, where value comes from, where money comes from, is in that positioning and it is really helpful to have a contrast to, to kind of embrace the fact that five does exist., But that's not where I am and that's not for me, and that's not where my clients typically are. 227 00:22:14,089 --> 00:22:22,729 And using those things as a bit of a kind of polarizer, as a bit of a positioning to say, I am up here because it's about all of these other things. 228 00:22:22,912 --> 00:22:27,562 Carlos: That maybe relates to the positioning, but for me, you know, I have a need for freedom. 229 00:22:27,782 --> 00:22:32,285 And to be able to use my voice to deliver value gives me a lot of freedom. 230 00:22:32,315 --> 00:22:40,365 I don't have to be somewhere all the time, in person, wherever they may be, and I don't have to be at a particular time to be somewhere. 231 00:22:41,025 --> 00:22:48,529 And so if my need is for freedom, it's like how can I, how can I meet that need to build the businesses based on freedom and my love of talking? 232 00:22:48,795 --> 00:23:00,030 And, and, and someone who gets that and understands that and can use that as a way for me to achieve, not only save my time because I can do the editing, but actually they realize that's where I want to be. 233 00:23:00,617 --> 00:23:01,817 Mark: Yes, yes to that. 234 00:23:01,997 --> 00:23:13,051 Uh, I, I was just thinking about the Fiverr thing and, and, um, how Direct Line, the insurance company are positioning them themselves even more into the space of, we are not on price comparison websites. 235 00:23:13,531 --> 00:23:17,731 Um, and I think there's obviously a, a monetary thing there. 236 00:23:17,731 --> 00:23:19,921 'cause they don't want to, you know, faff around with the commission. 237 00:23:20,401 --> 00:23:25,499 But also there is a positioning statement there that says we, we are, we are above that. 238 00:23:25,499 --> 00:23:26,939 We are not part of that. 239 00:23:26,939 --> 00:23:28,739 If that's what you are looking for, then that's fine. 240 00:23:29,039 --> 00:23:38,229 Um, and, you know, insurance is a bit, is, is a lot more transactional, but there is absolutely something to be able to, to say what you are gonna get here is, is very different. 241 00:23:38,229 --> 00:23:47,109 I was listening to a podcast before we started where all the ums and uhs, uh, have been and, and duplicate words have been removed automatically and it shows. 242 00:23:47,409 --> 00:23:51,249 And what that shows is the, the host doesn't care that much. 243 00:23:51,309 --> 00:23:52,809 Or that's not necessarily fair. 244 00:23:52,959 --> 00:23:56,199 Their priorities are not aligned with me as a listener. 245 00:23:56,679 --> 00:23:59,679 Their priorities are aligned with, let's get this out quickly. 246 00:23:59,799 --> 00:24:03,039 Now, this is someone I know can afford to work with someone. 247 00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:06,369 So it's, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's not necessarily selfishness. 248 00:24:06,459 --> 00:24:24,705 It might be just a lack of, of understanding or a lack of that sense of like their work being able to build trust, their work being able to create the beginnings of a parasocial relationship, this podcast, being able to bring, you know, me and him closer together, that is being jeopardized 249 00:24:24,885 --> 00:24:33,045 because it's, you know, it's not just, 'cause it doesn't sound good, it's because it's, you know, it's chopped to within an inch of its life. 250 00:24:33,045 --> 00:24:34,515 So the humanity's taken out of it. 251 00:24:34,845 --> 00:24:45,540 Ben: For me, what we were kind of getting to, and the thing that we always come back to on the course and everything is kind of really understanding the thing that we do is not really the service that we're providing. 252 00:24:45,870 --> 00:24:51,780 You know, the thing that we do, somebody is buying in service of something else they're buying 'cause they're trying to change something else. 253 00:24:51,780 --> 00:25:01,140 They're trying, there is some other outcome, some other sort of return for want of a phrase that the person is, is wanting, is seeking, is needed. 254 00:25:01,530 --> 00:25:06,930 And the, you know, and podcasting in this instance is a means for me to get that. 255 00:25:07,260 --> 00:25:20,565 \And so the more of course that I understand that change, the more that I understand what it is that the customer actually wants to change, the more I can step into a place of sort of confidently understanding, well, what is the value of my work? 256 00:25:20,565 --> 00:25:26,595 And by that I don't mean, oh, it's worth 10 pounds because you are getting a hundred pounds back or whatever, 'cause that is complicated. 257 00:25:26,835 --> 00:25:42,955 But you know, even, you know, just from the point of view of understanding, well actually, if this is about safety and consistency and support and insight for me at this critical juncture, in my own business to grow up, to expand it to, to kind of elevate my own impact, all of a sudden, just as I 258 00:25:42,955 --> 00:25:51,475 understand the value of that is then different to a conversation around, well, it costs me x to be able to kind of take out your ums and adds or whatever. 259 00:25:51,685 --> 00:25:56,635 So really just, it's really important to understand the change that our customer or client is really wanting. 260 00:25:57,085 --> 00:26:02,112 Which of course is very rarely, almost never the what of what we did, if that makes sense. 261 00:26:02,284 --> 00:26:08,984 Mark: That's brilliant, because I, I, I feel like that was somewhere in the back of my mind, but that's, I, I really appreciate how that was articulated. 262 00:26:08,984 --> 00:26:09,374 Thank you, Ben. 263 00:26:09,629 --> 00:26:13,139 Ben: Uh, and so Anya's question, which was 264 00:26:13,199 --> 00:26:16,139 Carlos: advice for raising prices with existing clients. 265 00:26:16,507 --> 00:26:16,987 Ben: Yeah. 266 00:26:17,137 --> 00:26:18,307 Uh, good question. 267 00:26:18,427 --> 00:26:30,652 Um, so I guess the point around that is, um, yeah, and I think maybe this links a little bit to what Mark was saying, that it wasn't, it wouldn't be possible to do such an extreme sort of increase often. 268 00:26:30,657 --> 00:26:32,902 I think there's maybe it was kind of linked to that and yeah. 269 00:26:32,902 --> 00:26:36,742 I mean, I, I, I, I don't think that that's kind of necessarily the case. 270 00:26:36,747 --> 00:26:39,702 I think it, it's not that you are only able to do that. 271 00:26:39,762 --> 00:26:47,622 For sure, what a client is willing to pay, what client is willing to pay varies and it is important to be in discussion with them. 272 00:26:47,892 --> 00:27:03,792 I think one of the things that I would say about is that everybody who's ever done the pricing course, taking that as a, as a kind of guide, everyone, so whatever that is, about 50 odd people now, every single one of those people without fail can be charging more than they are charging. 273 00:27:04,272 --> 00:27:14,592 Uh, I think that is a total given from everybody who's come, has come through, because they're doing good work, which is important and is well intentioned, and is valuable, and is really in service. 274 00:27:14,832 --> 00:27:17,172 Of the people who they are looking to work with. 275 00:27:17,502 --> 00:27:20,142 All of those people I think are, are underpricing. 276 00:27:20,472 --> 00:27:26,802 And I think everybody worries about putting up their prices and so as a consequence, people avoid doing it. 277 00:27:27,252 --> 00:27:33,312 But it is okay to put up your prices and it might be in putting up your prices that a client says that they can't do it. 278 00:27:33,492 --> 00:27:40,927 Then you can have a conversation with them about whether or not you are willing to go there, but I would say it's always possible to be exploring that with clients. 279 00:27:41,107 --> 00:27:44,887 And that's not to say they'll always go for it, but it is always possible to be exploring it. 280 00:27:45,127 --> 00:27:48,997 And to have confidence to step into that space, I think is important. 281 00:27:49,002 --> 00:28:04,507 Because like I said, typically everybody who comes to the work that we do are all undercharging and everybody is really nervous about putting their prices up and almost without fail, I think if you do put your prices up, you will find that clients are willing to meet you there. 282 00:28:05,025 --> 00:28:06,735 Carlos: I wanted to add just a little bit on that. 283 00:28:06,765 --> 00:28:15,465 Just, I remembering there was that we did a, a little episode about um, Elon Musk raising prices, and then suddenly backtracking 'cause someone objected. 284 00:28:15,945 --> 00:28:30,765 So one of the things I learned from that, I totally agree with Ben, is like most of us have got to the price that we have got to not necessarily through really understanding what that price is supposed to be, but just there's a number that that got us to that level, the market rate or whatever it is. 285 00:28:31,445 --> 00:28:38,765 And so that might be quite low and you, you could just pro charge higher and if your clients really trust you, they probably stay with you, 'cause what's the cost of finding another supplier? 286 00:28:39,065 --> 00:28:41,435 I think that's one element of this, I think. 287 00:28:42,095 --> 00:28:49,505 The other element I'm curious about as well is like telling the story of the extra value, especially if you're gonna go pretty high. 288 00:28:49,955 --> 00:28:56,575 And like with Mark, it's like actually reminding a customer, reminding me, Mark, of what else I could be getting from you. 289 00:28:56,875 --> 00:29:04,595 Not in terms of extra work that you'll be doing, but oh gosh, by, you know, having a much more Human podcast. 290 00:29:04,655 --> 00:29:05,675 Edited podcast. 291 00:29:06,155 --> 00:29:10,535 And we were talking about sacred work last night on our Soul Cafe. 292 00:29:11,105 --> 00:29:14,195 For me, sacred work is work that I have relationship to. 293 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:15,755 I care about, you're saying. 294 00:29:15,935 --> 00:29:24,380 It's like if I just care, don't care whether it sounds robotic, 'cause it's been automatically edited, then there's something about my relationship to the work. 295 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:30,770 And so there's thing like, if you really care about this work, about your voice, you want to invest in it, you want to commit to it. 296 00:29:31,460 --> 00:29:33,140 And so there's something about that story. 297 00:29:33,140 --> 00:29:35,630 It's like, am I how committed I am to that work? 298 00:29:35,635 --> 00:29:39,230 Because if I really am committed and I have capacity to pay, I will pay more. 299 00:29:39,597 --> 00:29:49,643 But that's just one thing is I, I think ultimately there's a story you tell, well, maybe there's extra aspects of the work or value that I haven't perceived that's there that I, I need to be paying for. 300 00:29:50,233 --> 00:29:59,723 But maybe there's other things that you want to do for people there isn't a lot of extra work, but, you know enhances the, the value that your customer's gonna get. 301 00:30:00,337 --> 00:30:01,117 Mark. 302 00:30:01,647 --> 00:30:10,257 Any final thoughts or reflections, or is there something that's become clearer for you or do you have any more questions that suddenly popped up for you because of the conversation? 303 00:30:10,627 --> 00:30:24,000 Mark: Uh, I, I think what's, what's stuck with me, um, is Ben's point about reminding us that people don't buy a service, they buy that change. 304 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,280 And they buy the, I'm getting this so that I can. 305 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:39,620 You know, it's, it's, we, we all know about features versus benefits and all that kind of stuff, but I think there's, there's a, a, a more important thing there about remembering and really focusing on, yeah. 306 00:30:39,650 --> 00:30:39,860 Okay. 307 00:30:39,860 --> 00:30:41,870 So the podcast, but, but why? 308 00:30:42,186 --> 00:30:43,566 You know, or I'm a designer. 309 00:30:43,566 --> 00:30:46,146 I'm a copywriter, what benefit is that? 310 00:30:46,146 --> 00:30:48,096 What is it that, that they are getting? 311 00:30:48,306 --> 00:30:50,586 Is it, like you said, is it getting their time back? 312 00:30:50,916 --> 00:30:53,683 Is it getting, you know what, whatever it is. 313 00:30:53,683 --> 00:31:01,753 It, it's like being able to focus on that thing, I think, uh, and, and being reminded of that is, is really, really useful because that's what the value is. 314 00:31:01,813 --> 00:31:07,033 The value is not in the actual, the, the bits and the bobs and what, you know, the, the mouse clicking. 315 00:31:07,423 --> 00:31:08,533 Um, that's not the value. 316 00:31:08,533 --> 00:31:10,903 The value is what that enables you as a result. 317 00:31:11,234 --> 00:31:15,207 Carlos: And then the question is, how do you get to understand what that value is? 318 00:31:15,573 --> 00:31:21,303 Mark: Uh, I did a, um, client survey at the end of last year, which has been really useful for me. 319 00:31:21,393 --> 00:31:29,513 Um, and I think, I think you've gotta ask, I think you've gotta really find out from people, um, because people don't always tell you, you know, when you're working with them. 320 00:31:29,693 --> 00:31:35,953 Uh, you know, you've, you've given me a whole, a whole lovely list of things today that you find valuable in, in the work as has Ben. 321 00:31:36,383 --> 00:31:39,143 And often that stuff doesn't come out un unless you ask. 322 00:31:39,148 --> 00:31:49,763 And so I think being willing to go out and try and find ways to like find out how you are helping people in ways that you didn't necessarily see. 323 00:31:49,763 --> 00:31:52,613 Because again, we're focused on, well, this is the thing I deliver. 324 00:31:52,673 --> 00:31:55,793 And it's like, well, yeah, but as a result of that, I've been able to do this. 325 00:31:55,793 --> 00:31:58,283 And, uh, I think yeah, you've, you've gotta go out and ask. 326 00:31:58,724 --> 00:32:03,279 Carlos: And, and I think this reminds me, again, of this conversation about sacred work. 327 00:32:03,789 --> 00:32:12,329 When I relate it to the people that you wanna work with, these change makers, they have a relationship to the process of the work. 328 00:32:12,329 --> 00:32:13,859 They, they want to do it in a certain way. 329 00:32:13,859 --> 00:32:17,759 They, they love that work and they have a relationship to the people that they're trying to serve. 330 00:32:18,239 --> 00:32:24,824 And there's a care and a and, and an a near uncompromising approach to that work. 331 00:32:25,124 --> 00:32:28,874 You know, they're, they're driven by values rather than just a spreadsheet. 332 00:32:29,834 --> 00:32:36,690 And so there's something here for me about if you are that kind of person, then I'm the kind of person to work with you. 333 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:56,060 Mark: That speaks a lot to me because that's, that's in, that's ingrained in, in, in what I do because there are certain things I can't help myself but do, um, when I'm working in, in particular projects because I'm like, if I, it, it almost doesn't occur to me to not do those things because yeah, these, these, these are sacred parts of, of the work. 334 00:32:56,270 --> 00:33:10,260 Um, there are optional things that I can do, but there are just some fundamental things I'm not going to let a conversation between two people over the internet sta start to sound, um, stilted because there is a delay, you know, because of the internet delay. 335 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:16,570 I will not, I cannot, I cannot countenance that, and I will take the time to do that. 336 00:33:16,570 --> 00:33:19,570 And this is why I sort of, I don't charge by the hour. 337 00:33:19,817 --> 00:33:21,437 I, I charge per episode. 338 00:33:21,437 --> 00:33:33,924 And, and that's probably a conversation like worth getting into at another point is, um, because I wanna make that as simple for you, Carlos and, and, and Ben and, and other people to understand like, you know, this is the episode, whatever. 339 00:33:34,554 --> 00:33:38,424 For me, obviously one episode can take longer than another,, and that's for me to deal with. 340 00:33:38,634 --> 00:33:47,844 But there are certain things like cutting out internet lag that are going to take me longer, but it can't not do them because that is part of the sacred work. 341 00:33:48,144 --> 00:34:05,050 Carlos: And this for me is talks a bit to, as I understand it is edifying experience, so this greater knowledge of the value of your work as I work with you more and more, because I think there's a, a greater appreciation of the experience my listeners have. 342 00:34:05,314 --> 00:34:06,244 And there's an interesting point. 343 00:34:06,244 --> 00:34:13,324 It's like when I start getting feedback from people that they either love the podcast or love listening to me and, oh, that bit wasn't great. 344 00:34:13,324 --> 00:34:15,994 It's like, oh gosh, I wanna make it better for them. 345 00:34:16,524 --> 00:34:17,844 And so there's this experience. 346 00:34:18,144 --> 00:34:25,054 Now I start valuing some of the finickiness that I might see before is actually, no, this is sacred work. 347 00:34:25,059 --> 00:34:29,284 This is work that about caring for the other person on the other side of the mic. 348 00:34:29,404 --> 00:34:50,422 So yeah, I, I, I've, have a better understanding of this idea of edifying and what I'm curious about there, and this process is like, in a sense is like at the beginning of working with you potentially, and this is potentially because I don't understand the full value of what you offer, I might not pay as much, but the longer I work with you, the more I'm be needing to pay, nearly. 349 00:34:50,872 --> 00:34:51,022 Mark: Yeah. 350 00:34:51,412 --> 00:34:52,642 Carlos: Talking himself into a bigger bill. 351 00:34:53,812 --> 00:35:02,896 But, but it's interesting that, how do you get them to you when they already value that level of artisanal quality,? 352 00:35:03,126 --> 00:35:05,346 That sacred work that you're doing? 353 00:35:05,346 --> 00:35:06,156 And what does that mean? 354 00:35:07,145 --> 00:35:27,834 Mark: So, I, I'm, I'm reminded of, of, someone told me, uh, ages ago, I think it might be, Laurence actually recounted, think it was a coach who offered pro bono sessions for people who really couldn't afford it, and what he would do is, or what they would do was issue a full invoice with a hundred percent discount so that you could see the value that, that you were getting. 355 00:35:27,834 --> 00:35:28,344 And that helps. 356 00:35:28,344 --> 00:35:30,474 I think people get that sense of investment. 357 00:35:30,474 --> 00:35:33,234 Even if they haven't paid it, they understand that there is a value here. 358 00:35:33,654 --> 00:35:47,079 Um, and I wonder if there's, if there are ways that we can, and I, I dunno how you do this without it being like self-congratulatory or like, I dunno, but finding a way to demonstrate this is actually what happened. 359 00:35:47,079 --> 00:35:48,549 You know, you gave me this audio. 360 00:35:48,699 --> 00:35:48,969 Yes. 361 00:35:48,969 --> 00:35:49,959 You can hear the result. 362 00:35:50,346 --> 00:36:05,267 A very, very quick example is, uh, I work with someone who's very self-conscious about certain vocal tics that they have, like saying, you know, and I will, I know that about them because I work with them and so I will always cut them out when I can, when then, when they, when 363 00:36:05,547 --> 00:36:12,571 leaving them in makes it sound more natural because if I, if if words run together and you cut them, it sounds robotic and not very good. 364 00:36:12,901 --> 00:36:15,571 So if I can, if they're clean, I will always remove them. 365 00:36:15,811 --> 00:36:20,131 And then every now and again I'll get an email back saying, this is great, can you cut out all the, you knows? 366 00:36:20,687 --> 00:36:26,207 And, and that's, you know, that's fine because this person, you know, they had that conversation a couple of weeks ago. 367 00:36:26,327 --> 00:36:28,217 They don't know how many times they said you know. 368 00:36:28,637 --> 00:36:31,232 I know that I spent quite a while removing them. 369 00:36:31,652 --> 00:36:36,482 Um, and that's, that reflects well on me because they haven't seen the join, they haven't seen the edit. 370 00:36:36,602 --> 00:36:38,672 And I can explain like, you know, whatever. 371 00:36:39,152 --> 00:36:52,112 Um, but yeah, there's this finding ways that we can actually show people without it being too self-aggrandizing or whatever, like this is actually what you, what you get that you maybe didn't realize. 372 00:36:52,142 --> 00:36:53,342 And I don't know how you do that. 373 00:36:53,484 --> 00:36:54,054 Carlos: Yeah. 374 00:36:54,059 --> 00:37:05,004 And, and there's a, an level of awareness, I think, of wine tasting, and going from the p place of like, no, I just, I like what, I like to, I only drink this type of wine. 375 00:37:05,004 --> 00:37:06,864 Mark: South african Reds with, yeah, yeah, 376 00:37:06,864 --> 00:37:08,724 Carlos: It is because I know it so well. 377 00:37:08,934 --> 00:37:09,024 Mark: Yeah. 378 00:37:09,024 --> 00:37:17,004 Carlos: And so that speaks to me of a person who's had been along on a journey beforehand, not the person who just like started a podcast and now is on Fiverr and trying. 379 00:37:17,244 --> 00:37:18,384 So actually I've done that. 380 00:37:18,384 --> 00:37:19,104 I've been there. 381 00:37:19,404 --> 00:37:22,854 I'm now a different level where I need actually better support. 382 00:37:23,304 --> 00:37:33,319 So that's just again, for anyone listening, there's this, sometimes the clients we want aren't the ones that we're trying to chase at the moment, or the clients we need aren't the ones we're trying to chase at the moment. 383 00:37:33,483 --> 00:37:38,463 Mark: That's actually, yeah, I think, I think, yeah, people have to figure out first maybe what they didn't know. 384 00:37:38,463 --> 00:37:48,603 Because actually that's a lot of what I'm doing now is finding the people who have got started and are maybe finding themselves a bit stuck or finding this is not quite working out as I thought. 385 00:37:48,813 --> 00:37:53,583 Uh, and then being able to have that moment for, you know, to work with someone to, to help. 386 00:37:53,613 --> 00:37:54,783 Okay, have you thought about these things? 387 00:37:55,143 --> 00:38:06,783 So I think, yeah, there's, I dunno, there, there's, there's something in, in that reminder that actually a lot of the people you can work with are people who've already tried this thing and it hasn't necessarily worked out for them. 388 00:38:06,933 --> 00:38:10,918 And that's where you get to come in with helping them with some of those expectations. 389 00:38:10,918 --> 00:38:12,478 'cause you are not starting from zero. 390 00:38:12,483 --> 00:38:12,683 Carlos: Mm-Hmm. 391 00:38:12,763 --> 00:38:16,168 Mark: You're not starting from this crazy list of expectations that you can never meet. 392 00:38:16,408 --> 00:38:22,808 They already know, like for example, with podcasting, oh, I'm, I'm probably not gonna go from zero to a thousand downloads in my first episode. 393 00:38:23,258 --> 00:38:26,648 I was taught that because this, this Udemy course told me that I could. 394 00:38:27,218 --> 00:38:28,718 That's, you know, surprisingly common. 395 00:38:28,988 --> 00:38:46,818 Um, it's, it's working with those people at that point, almost in the Satir, like Satir change model, maybe in that sort of chaos area, to be able then to sort of help guide them out and say, okay, let's reset those expectations and, and let's work to towards something that you are gonna really find enriching. 396 00:38:47,064 --> 00:38:49,284 Carlos: Yeah, it's interesting about resetting expectations. 397 00:38:49,374 --> 00:38:53,244 And the other aspect for me is the sophistication of the, the buyer. 398 00:38:53,544 --> 00:38:53,784 Mm-Hmm. 399 00:38:53,994 --> 00:39:00,324 Mark: And when I say that is that, you know, one of the things I've learned from you and I've come, it isn't about the downloads for me as much anymore. 400 00:39:00,354 --> 00:39:00,444 Mm-Hmm. 401 00:39:00,684 --> 00:39:08,124 Carlos: It isn't about, and also the, the downloads is about a broader marketing strategy, but it's about the intimacy of the relationship. 402 00:39:08,664 --> 00:39:15,024 It's about this is a way for me to talk to many, many people without being there. 403 00:39:15,323 --> 00:39:16,938 Mark: And talk to them as a single person. 404 00:39:17,102 --> 00:39:24,018 Carlos: And to do that as a, to see the value in that and to see why that's a value to me and also, well, that's the way I want to work. 405 00:39:24,023 --> 00:39:28,818 And, and to, to believe in that and to understand that, then that's okay, that's why I want do podcasts. 406 00:39:28,823 --> 00:39:30,588 That's why I wanna have these conversations with people. 407 00:39:31,113 --> 00:39:32,868 And that's why I need to listen. 408 00:39:32,868 --> 00:39:36,008 It needs to sound the way I want it to sound. 409 00:39:36,175 --> 00:39:49,645 Mark: Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm really pleased that that is something that, that you, you feel, 'cause it shows that, yeah, these, these things I, I talk about, um, I, I, I'm always pleased when I say these things and then people go, oh yeah, that makes sense, because not everybody talks about that. 410 00:39:49,825 --> 00:39:52,075 You know, not everybody talks about this relationship in this way. 411 00:39:52,405 --> 00:39:56,605 The, the audio, the intimacy of audio has almost become a cliche. 412 00:39:56,605 --> 00:40:00,895 And I think it's because people use the words and they don't really think about what that actually means. 413 00:40:01,295 --> 00:40:03,065 What that relationship actually means. 414 00:40:03,365 --> 00:40:16,565 Um, like I was telling some friends, uh, a couple of days ago, I nearly lost my ever loving mind because someone mentioned someone I revere, a guy called Merlin Mann, big productivity guy, he invented Inbox Zero, he's now a podcaster. 415 00:40:16,895 --> 00:40:22,530 Um, he said my name on a podcast, and I went, I, I, I made an involuntary noise like I was listening and I was like, ha. 416 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:32,272 Like, because I was so excited and nervous and all this stuff, and like all of that matters because I've been listening to him for, you know, since 2011. 417 00:40:32,465 --> 00:40:33,795 And this guy just said my name. 418 00:40:33,825 --> 00:40:34,635 That's huge. 419 00:40:34,785 --> 00:40:38,595 And that happens because I've built up this rel, this parasocial relationship. 420 00:40:38,595 --> 00:40:43,965 He doesn't know who I am, but now after 11 years, he said my name. 421 00:40:43,965 --> 00:40:46,125 You know, that's, that's, that's an amazing feeling. 422 00:40:46,271 --> 00:40:51,777 Carlos: And there's things like that, the start to communicate the value of this work. 423 00:40:51,777 --> 00:41:00,087 And this again, the message,, I mean the, uh, the, the broader message around this is don't, um, assume that everyone knows the value of what you do. 424 00:41:00,327 --> 00:41:00,537 Mark: Yeah. 425 00:41:00,630 --> 00:41:04,170 Carlos: They might know what you do, but they might not understand the value of what you do. 426 00:41:04,230 --> 00:41:11,930 And that is our work, in whatever way we do that, whether by voice written video to, to communicate that. 427 00:41:12,713 --> 00:41:13,403 thank you, Mark. 428 00:41:13,823 --> 00:41:14,513 Mark: Thank you. 429 00:41:15,278 --> 00:41:21,791 Carlos: So until next time, uh, and next week, enjoy your rest of the week. 430 00:41:22,194 --> 00:41:26,034 And, uh, yeah, looking forward to getting that bigger bill.