Carlos: You didn't hear any of that music in the background?
Mark: Yes.
Carlos: Oh God.
Ben: That wasn't an echo.
That was music.
Carlos: Welcome everyone.
Thank you very much for joining us to the Happy Pricing Podcast Uh, and we are really happy to have Mark Steadman join us, uh, who inspired the topic of today.
I'm nearly, and I was quite amused by that.
I'm nearly doubling my prices for 2023, which is like, I, I found, yeah, this is quite cuddly and amusing.
And after, as he put it, criminally, I love that, criminally undercharging for his services.
For those of you who, who may have, uh, stumbled across this, and are in a place of thinking, uh, I would like to increase my prices, uh, and maybe nearly double them, but I'm not sure how to do that and what that means, I thought we'd have a conversation with Mark to learn about his approach, what motivated him, I don't essentially have him share however much he wants to share about this,
this process, to give you guys a, a window into what it's like doing this for real, rather than just reading off a book or listening to some guy on YouTube telling you how to double your prices.
And also to give us an opportunity to maybe connect it to some of the things that we talk about on the Happy Pricing course, uh, to to ground.
What we talk about, which, you know, might seem a bit, um, academic, with actual real life stories.
'Cause there's, there's the do, there's the theory and then there's the actual practice and, and how that feels, I think is the other thing I'm really curious about is like that, that boldness that is required.
So I'm gonna hand over to Mark now.
Uh, to just kind of maybe just share, let's start by sharing for those of the listeners who don't know you, uh, and what you do, share a bit about that.
Uh, and then some context to why doubling your prices is, is important to you this year.
Mark: Thank you.
Hello.
Uh, my name is Mark.
I am a podcast consultant and I work with people who are in, they're contemplating their second mountain.
so they've, spent a career learning, doing, making, and they're now in a position where they want to give back.
And, um, often that involves trying to change the world or change their little corner of the world.
And so I like to, uh, try and help people use their voice to do that because, um, I think it's the most persuasive tool that we have.
That is, uh, something that's evolved over a few years because when I started as a podcast editor back in, uh, when, when I got my first paid gig to edit podcasts back in 2016, it was very much, I mean, I was found on peopleperhour.com by someone who said, um, you are a little bit expensive.
This was the first time I'd, uh, I'd charged for podcast editing.
Can you undercut a little bit?
and so I did that.
And I charged what I thought at the time would be the rate that would support what I wanted to do.
And what that really was, was a rate that one person said that they could afford, not a rate that was necessarily commensurate with the people that I'd like to work with.
Um, because one of the things that I know comes up a lot in these conversations is how pricing is a signal and it's a signal to who you want to work with is signal to and about the people that you wanna work with, and the investment that those people wanna make in what you do together.
Um, that's not just a financial investment, but it's a, uh, it's an investment of time and energy and all sorts of things as well.
Um, and so where I got to the point where at the end of last year, I wanted to double my prices, and I think that that phrase, I'm nearly doubling my prices could mean two things.
It could mean I, I haven't decided yet, um, or I am getting to, uh, a hundred and, uh, a, you know, a hundred percent more.
So, yeah, I, I made the decision that I wanted to increase my prices.
That, for me, felt like the kind of thing you only really get to do once every few years as a remedial measure.
It might not be the right word, but as a, as a corrective measure.
Um, because I'd done it, um, a few years ago and I got to one particular level, and then at the end of last year, I thought after the conversations I was having with certain people and realizing what I could offer that was different from what other people were offering, then it was time to start charging what was more appropriate for that work, um, and try not to compete on, on price.
Carlos: You said something about there's only certain opportunities or times to double your prices or increase your prices.
I can't remember what you said,
Mark: to increase them so dramatically.
I think there's always time to increase your prices, but to, to do, to take such a big jump.
Carlos: To start.
Okay.
So there's like a windows of opportunity that that's where that's possible.
Okay.
And then this idea of charging appropriately given this unique shift or unique sense of value that you are offering.
And that's, that's kind of, one of the motivations to, to charge differently.
And then the other thing I heard was around this group of people that you talk about, these change makers that you wanna work with and help.
Um, actually you didn't say this, but you've shared it with us before, you wanna make this accessible because there's a broad range of capacities to pay as I understand.
So there's a, there's a not demographic, I'm not sure if it's a psychographic, but there's like a bunch of people with a certain intention to do stuff in the world, and they also have a range of ability to pay.
Mark: Yes.
And also I think one of the things that I, I find is that when people get into the medium when, when people start picking up a microphone and using it, they I think more often than not, find it more edifying than they'd realized beforehand.
And so I know that, and I know that there's, it can be a, an enriching experience and it can help their business and it can help themselves as well.
But you can't, you can tell people that, but you can't make them, experience that or believe that until they experience it for themselves.
And so it can be, or there's an argument to say it's unfair to try and make someone pay this, this large amount of money for something that they can't yet see how that's gonna prove out.
And so there are people who are able, not prepared, but able to take that longer view because they, you know, they, they've got a bit more margin that they can say, Okay, like I can see the value in this.
I'm willing to experiment, and if it doesn't pan out, that's okay.
I haven't lost my, you know, lost my shirt over it.
But then there are other people who feel they're in a much, much, either in a much tighter spot or they really have that sense of like, I, I really don't know if I'm gonna enjoy this, if it's actually gonna deliver the things that you, you say it's gonna deliver.
So for them, I wanted to make sure that I still had provisions so that I, I wasn't sort of leaving, leaving those people, that can use this kind of work.
Because one of the, I'll say very quickly, I think one of the things that you see, that I see a lot in the medium is people go from zero to podcast and there's so many steps in between that people don't, that you don't know what you don't know.
And, um, part of what I do is auditing podcasts, is helping people get that sense of like, what are the gaps, what are the bits that I'm not quite grasping?
But I began to realize where these gaps are, where these things are that people, people don't know.
And.
I wanted to make sure that I could provide services for those people to be able to make, help them make the best thing that they can with the resources they have available.
Ben: Um, my first question is to go back a stage.
When you said the nearly doubling your prices could mean two things.
It could mean you are about to do it or you are nearly doubling, which one are you?
Mark: I am nearly doubling.
So like.
Ben: So you have done it and it is nearly twice the amount.
Mark: Yes.
For, for specific work that I do, which we, I know, you know, some of the conversations that, that happen are around selling your time and, and, and that not necessarily being something that we always wanna do, but you know, that there is a time aspect to, to what this work is.
You know, it's delivering a thing and it takes a certain amount of time.
And so it's, it's that kind of work that I am making a, a big increase in.
Because one of the things that is really prevalent is how much of a race to the bottom there is in some of the aspects of what I do, which is effectively, helping stitch audio together or, uh, cut bits out and making it louder.
You know, that's, that's kind of, you know, that's it.
But there's a lot more that goes into it than, than just those, those aspects because they can easily be farmed out.
That, that, that's not a hugely skilled, task.
Where the skill is, is knowing certain little aspects of, if you make these kinds of cuts, then you've gotta, uh, think about this.
It's thinking about when I'm writing show notes, listening to the episode critically or, um, actively, and being able to write, um, show notes that accompany the episode.
It's those sorts of things that take a bit more skill, and have been, or I have been, I think undervaluing because they are useful and important and, and, and valuable things.
And getting more to that thing of like, trying to focus and hone in on like, what's the stuff that only I can do or, you know, that I can do only in my particular way.
Carlos: I'm a customer of Mark's call disclosure.
So on one hand, might feel a little bit uncomfortable, but on the other hand, I'm a perfect person to talk to.
Mark: Well, one of the things, one of the things that, that I will say right off the bat is, um, and I, I, when I, when I announced this on LinkedIn, I said that this wasn't affecting preexisting relationships because that seems, I think, I think it's, it's one thing to up your prices
commensurate with, you know, various things, but to double your prices for people that are already working with you, that's a different discussion.
I'm not saying whether that's good or bad, but that's not a discussion that, you know, I was, I was gonna have with myself.
Carlos: I thought we had that discussion now.
I thought, well, this was a contract process.
Like, oh, we're gonna renew, negotiate our rates today.
Carlos, I've been emboldened by your Happy Writing podcast.
Mark: And yeah, that is a bold move to do, to do that in public.
Carlos: So what I'm gonna say, there's a couple of things.
First, there's just a boring thing's like, uh, my, I say English isn't my first language.
Um.
Mark: Pricing is.
Carlos: You said something around podcasting, being edifying or something like that.
This experience being edifying.
Can you explain what you meant by edifying?
Mark: I love having conversations when, so every now and again, I'll, I'll check in with people and I'll, I'll sort of, you know, say how, how's the process going for you?
Uh, what are you getting out of it?
Because I'm, I'm much more interested in that than like, let's look at your downloads.
Because if that's something that people wanna measure, then that's cool.
But one of the conversations that I I love having is when people say, Yeah, I, I didn't, I never real, like I was chatting to someone yesterday and said, I never realized how much I was going to learn about my business.
I'm supposed to be an expert in this particular topic, and I've learned so much by having conversations with other people in this space.
And that just made me so happy.
Now, um, when you can approach something from that, that point of curiosity and also thinking about how you can serve and, and, and all these things that we know about, but that curiosity being a really interesting thing, if, if you approach it from that rather than like, let's push out some more content, let's interview this person because it's, it's Tuesday.
And, and that's when we interview people instead looking at what am I gonna learn from this person that can, that can help me or that can, you know, teach me about my own business?
Then there's a whole other aspect of people who'd never realized what they were capable of, and the barriers that they were able to push through that.
Um, they, they never considered pushing through before using their voice.
Even things like writing or, or, or editing.
You know, like anything from, I'm not a technical person, I can't figure this stuff out all the way through to.
I was sat weeping in front of a microphone because I didn't know how to express this particular thing, and I got so frustrated.
I've experienced that whole gamut.
And so that's what I think about, um, as one aspect of how edifying podcasting can be.
Carlos: You, you talked about, well, you know, I do this editing stuff.
I check out the volume.
You know, this is kind of stuff that's kind of mechanical, lots of people can do.
And I do this other stuff.
and I just wanted to say for me, the other thing that is of very unique value is, uh, trust.
There's this guy I know and I, I, I know he's just a good guy.
Full stop.
As opposed to some guy on Fiverr who I don't know.
And there's this guy who knows me and my work and the message that I'm trying to communicate and the intention behind it,
Mark: and maybe your constraints and, and things like that as well.
Carlos: Exactly.
Ben: I'm kind of curious, what, what is it that you think people are buying from you?
Mark: I think it varies.
There are some people who, who I've worked a little bit more transactionally with, and that's like, let's deliver a thing.
Uh, and they tend not to come back.
I don't think that's because we had a bad experience.
It, it tends to be, yeah.
I, I wanted to try this thing out and, and I, you know, I figured out how much uh, how, how this would help me, or I had expectations that weren't necessarily met because, uh, I had this understanding of what podcasting is.
And then I started working with Mark and he was like, whoa.
So, yeah.
So that, that is the one half, I guess is, uh, is the transactional stuff or, or a, a, a fifth maybe.
I think the rest of it, I would like to think it's a sense of, like if I say a safe pair of hands, I think that can, that can be a little bit, that can mean like, yeah, I know I can throw in some audio and it's gonna come out okay.
But I think it's much more than that.
I think it's about having our initial conversations and people feeling safe, people feeling so.
I talk about this a lot and because it was something that, um, meant a lot to me when I was, uh, at university my last year, we were all stressed.
We were all thinking like, are we gonna make our, like, are we gonna fail this year?
We were, a group of us were sitting around with our dissertation tutor or advisor or whatever he was, professor Tim Wall.
And there's about four of us.
And we, we were all saying how stressed we were and we, we think, you know, we're, we're gonna fail.
And he said, I won't let you fail.
And what that meant was, I'm not gonna do the work for you, but I'm going to make sure that if you need someone on your arse to chivvy you along to get you to where you need to be, if you need to bounce ideas or if you're feeling lost, I am there to catch you.
And, and so for me, it's like, if you work with me, I'm not gonna make you look silly.
You are not gonna look foolish.
You're not gonna sound like you dunno what you are talking about.
You are gonna sound your smartest.
And if there are areas where I can help you sound even smarter, um, then we'll work on that.
But that sort of sense of safety to me is, is really important and that's what people have communicated to me that is valuable in working with me.
Ben: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, I would agree with all of those.
So if, if you, uh, what, what are some of the common reasons that you think that people choose to kind of step into the kind of podcasting, podcasting endeavor?
Why, why do you think people make a decision that they want to try it?
What is it that they're trying to change, do you think?
Mark: There are different reasons.
I think some people go into it because they want to get more business, and that they've heard successful podcasts as a way of being able to generate leads and, and, um, and, and perhaps generate income as well.
And then there's, there's an another set of people who just wanna, who wanna build community and build a space, um, uh, hold a space.
Um, and then there's others who actually have a sense of service and education.
Like I was working with, um, a couple of of people this morning who, like, I asked them, what do you want out of this podcast?
And what they gave back to me is a load of reasons why the listener benefits, which is usually the thing I'm, or sometimes is the thing I'm having to drag people towards is like, okay, this is great, i, I, I understand how this will be helpful to you, but let's think about the listener.
Um, and they, they were so focused on, this is about educating, this is about, you know, and almost a little bit shy to say, like, and we also hope it'll be a bit of a, you know, beacon for the business.
It's like, no, that's ab that's absolutely fine.
That's an okay thing for it to be, but it has to start from that point of view of like, what can we do?
How can we benefit?
Because for no other reason, other than it's a hell of a lot of podcasts, there's four and a half million podcasts.
Um, that's not episodes, that's podcasts.
And you know about, uh, I can't remember, it's about 500,000 of them are active, but that's still a lot of podcasts.
You've gotta find ways to differentiate, and we can talk about niching down, but the other way to differentiate is making sure that you are actually really there to, to serve the other person, to serve the listener rather than, um, necessarily serving your, your ego.
Ben: Carlos, you were saying you have an answer.
Carlos: Yeah, well.
Ben: Generally I have the answer.
Carlos: What, what am I buying off of Mark?
Um, I, I've got very simple answers, to be honest.
Initially of if I was gonna take a Maslow's hierarchy aspect, uh, approach to this, bottom of the rung, you know, bottom base, uh, time.
Don't have time to edit.
I don't have time to publish.
I don't have time to look into technology.
I could do it, and I have been doing it in my first one, but I just didn't have the time.
And to be honest, I could do that by just buying some time off of Fiverr.
the second rung is I don't enjoy writing, and I feel bad, for want of a better word, for not doing enough writing.
But I love speaking and I love talking, and I love exploring ideas out loud.
And so having the opportunity to do that without having to worry about the technology, and then also learning about how to turn those audio words into written words, and discovering there's a process of writing that isn't just about a black sheet of paper, but also a voice that then fills that black sheet of paper, which I then turn into words,
that's been a really helpful in terms of this edifying experience of like, ah, there's a way in to creating written content for me that isn't just a black sheet of paper.
And then towards the top there's this real sense of, okay, this is me.
This is how I communicate.
This is my way of sharing and helping.
And then from that place, it's like, how can I help the people that I want to help better?
And I think, oh, I wonder if there is a way to use my voice to educate and instruct people in a way that's unique to me.
And the way how, how I like to communicate how I, and maybe their little audio courses or their little, I love the kind of the, the story based audio, but I have no idea how to do it.
And I'm not sure how it links to my audience, but there's, there's a, a creative urge there as well.
And then the other element of this as well is like, I'm at a stage where our business isn't doing too badly, and so I have a capacity to pay which means that I am able to, you know, if I look at my own hourly rate compared to the hourly rate of doing, you know, having someone else, in this case Mark, edit a podcast, there's that.
But also there's this other investment in like, if I am able to create evergreen content with my voice, that creates value not only for my community now, but my community in the future, then that feels like a worthwhile investment.
Ben: Mm-Hmm.
Carlos: And this now goes beyond editing a podcast and releasing it.
Ben: Mm-Hmm.
Carlos: This goes beyond how do we create this package, this thing that I can then repeatedly share that others, I get more value repeatedly from, my customers.
Get more value repeatedly from, and uses this new skill that I've learned over a couple years.
Ben: And you know, within that then what becomes important is the accountability, the support, the safety, the reliability, the knowledge, the insight, the experience that Mark would bring that makes all of that possible given how important it is to, you know, where your business is going and what what you are doing.
And so, you know, by what that aids of course is, the transactional stuff isn't important.
Yes, it's transactional.
It's just part of the kind of package, but actually, what people are buying.
And I know this also from my own experience 'cause you also helped me do on the other podcasts that I do as well.
And that, you know, like if I think about my own intent and ambition for that, like we've spoken about this idea that it is a virtual campfire, a place where people can meet.
So what you can bring there is, you know, the uh, you know, is some accountability, is some consistency, is some guidance.
You know, if that's the goal, you need to be doing things in this way, you know, with this frequency.
And I can sort of hold you to that and support you to that, and also provide the insight, which means that my objectives for it are met.
And so all of that insight, all of that safety, all of that support, all that accountancy, that is where the value is, you know, that, you know, there is a transactional component is not actually the point.
And in a way, for your positioning not on Fiverr is probably quite a good sort of positioning.
'Cause that's the point, isn't it?
You can, you can draw distinction, which is relevant to what you charge.
It's relevant to what, what other people will pay by saying, if you are interested in transactional, I recommend you go to Fiverr.
I'm not going to be those people.
I don't work in that way.
I work with people in this way for these reasons.
And then you are tapping into what their motivation, what my motivation is a for customer or Carlos's is, or ours is collectively on this.
And then it's about the sup, the support and the guidance to help those things happen.
And that's a completely different space to can I buy somebody on Fiverr who can take all of my ums and ahs and like out of my sort of conversation of which there are many, but kind of easily removed.
So, it's a positioning thing as much as anything.
And I think, you know, where, where value comes from, where money comes from, is in that positioning and it is really helpful to have a contrast to, to kind of embrace the fact that five does exist., But that's not where I am and that's not for me, and that's not where my clients typically are.
And using those things as a bit of a kind of polarizer, as a bit of a positioning to say, I am up here because it's about all of these other things.
Carlos: That maybe relates to the positioning, but for me, you know, I have a need for freedom.
And to be able to use my voice to deliver value gives me a lot of freedom.
I don't have to be somewhere all the time, in person, wherever they may be, and I don't have to be at a particular time to be somewhere.
And so if my need is for freedom, it's like how can I, how can I meet that need to build the businesses based on freedom and my love of talking?
And, and, and someone who gets that and understands that and can use that as a way for me to achieve, not only save my time because I can do the editing, but actually they realize that's where I want to be.
Mark: Yes, yes to that.
Uh, I, I was just thinking about the Fiverr thing and, and, um, how Direct Line, the insurance company are positioning them themselves even more into the space of, we are not on price comparison websites.
Um, and I think there's obviously a, a monetary thing there.
'cause they don't want to, you know, faff around with the commission.
But also there is a positioning statement there that says we, we are, we are above that.
We are not part of that.
If that's what you are looking for, then that's fine.
Um, and, you know, insurance is a bit, is, is a lot more transactional, but there is absolutely something to be able to, to say what you are gonna get here is, is very different.
I was listening to a podcast before we started where all the ums and uhs, uh, have been and, and duplicate words have been removed automatically and it shows.
And what that shows is the, the host doesn't care that much.
Or that's not necessarily fair.
Their priorities are not aligned with me as a listener.
Their priorities are aligned with, let's get this out quickly.
Now, this is someone I know can afford to work with someone.
So it's, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's not necessarily selfishness.
It might be just a lack of, of understanding or a lack of that sense of like their work being able to build trust, their work being able to create the beginnings of a parasocial relationship, this podcast, being able to bring, you know, me and him closer together, that is being jeopardized
because it's, you know, it's not just, 'cause it doesn't sound good, it's because it's, you know, it's chopped to within an inch of its life.
So the humanity's taken out of it.
Ben: For me, what we were kind of getting to, and the thing that we always come back to on the course and everything is kind of really understanding the thing that we do is not really the service that we're providing.
You know, the thing that we do, somebody is buying in service of something else they're buying 'cause they're trying to change something else.
They're trying, there is some other outcome, some other sort of return for want of a phrase that the person is, is wanting, is seeking, is needed.
And the, you know, and podcasting in this instance is a means for me to get that.
\And so the more of course that I understand that change, the more that I understand what it is that the customer actually wants to change, the more I can step into a place of sort of confidently understanding, well, what is the value of my work?
And by that I don't mean, oh, it's worth 10 pounds because you are getting a hundred pounds back or whatever, 'cause that is complicated.
But you know, even, you know, just from the point of view of understanding, well actually, if this is about safety and consistency and support and insight for me at this critical juncture, in my own business to grow up, to expand it to, to kind of elevate my own impact, all of a sudden, just as I
understand the value of that is then different to a conversation around, well, it costs me x to be able to kind of take out your ums and adds or whatever.
So really just, it's really important to understand the change that our customer or client is really wanting.
Which of course is very rarely, almost never the what of what we did, if that makes sense.
Mark: That's brilliant, because I, I, I feel like that was somewhere in the back of my mind, but that's, I, I really appreciate how that was articulated.
Thank you, Ben.
Ben: Uh, and so Anya's question, which was
Carlos: advice for raising prices with existing clients.
Ben: Yeah.
Uh, good question.
Um, so I guess the point around that is, um, yeah, and I think maybe this links a little bit to what Mark was saying, that it wasn't, it wouldn't be possible to do such an extreme sort of increase often.
I think there's maybe it was kind of linked to that and yeah.
I mean, I, I, I, I don't think that that's kind of necessarily the case.
I think it, it's not that you are only able to do that.
For sure, what a client is willing to pay, what client is willing to pay varies and it is important to be in discussion with them.
I think one of the things that I would say about is that everybody who's ever done the pricing course, taking that as a, as a kind of guide, everyone, so whatever that is, about 50 odd people now, every single one of those people without fail can be charging more than they are charging.
Uh, I think that is a total given from everybody who's come, has come through, because they're doing good work, which is important and is well intentioned, and is valuable, and is really in service.
Of the people who they are looking to work with.
All of those people I think are, are underpricing.
And I think everybody worries about putting up their prices and so as a consequence, people avoid doing it.
But it is okay to put up your prices and it might be in putting up your prices that a client says that they can't do it.
Then you can have a conversation with them about whether or not you are willing to go there, but I would say it's always possible to be exploring that with clients.
And that's not to say they'll always go for it, but it is always possible to be exploring it.
And to have confidence to step into that space, I think is important.
Because like I said, typically everybody who comes to the work that we do are all undercharging and everybody is really nervous about putting their prices up and almost without fail, I think if you do put your prices up, you will find that clients are willing to meet you there.
Carlos: I wanted to add just a little bit on that.
Just, I remembering there was that we did a, a little episode about um, Elon Musk raising prices, and then suddenly backtracking 'cause someone objected.
So one of the things I learned from that, I totally agree with Ben, is like most of us have got to the price that we have got to not necessarily through really understanding what that price is supposed to be, but just there's a number that that got us to that level, the market rate or whatever it is.
And so that might be quite low and you, you could just pro charge higher and if your clients really trust you, they probably stay with you, 'cause what's the cost of finding another supplier?
I think that's one element of this, I think.
The other element I'm curious about as well is like telling the story of the extra value, especially if you're gonna go pretty high.
And like with Mark, it's like actually reminding a customer, reminding me, Mark, of what else I could be getting from you.
Not in terms of extra work that you'll be doing, but oh gosh, by, you know, having a much more Human podcast.
Edited podcast.
And we were talking about sacred work last night on our Soul Cafe.
For me, sacred work is work that I have relationship to.
I care about, you're saying.
It's like if I just care, don't care whether it sounds robotic, 'cause it's been automatically edited, then there's something about my relationship to the work.
And so there's thing like, if you really care about this work, about your voice, you want to invest in it, you want to commit to it.
And so there's something about that story.
It's like, am I how committed I am to that work?
Because if I really am committed and I have capacity to pay, I will pay more.
But that's just one thing is I, I think ultimately there's a story you tell, well, maybe there's extra aspects of the work or value that I haven't perceived that's there that I, I need to be paying for.
But maybe there's other things that you want to do for people there isn't a lot of extra work, but, you know enhances the, the value that your customer's gonna get.
Mark.
Any final thoughts or reflections, or is there something that's become clearer for you or do you have any more questions that suddenly popped up for you because of the conversation?
Mark: Uh, I, I think what's, what's stuck with me, um, is Ben's point about reminding us that people don't buy a service, they buy that change.
And they buy the, I'm getting this so that I can.
You know, it's, it's, we, we all know about features versus benefits and all that kind of stuff, but I think there's, there's a, a, a more important thing there about remembering and really focusing on, yeah.
Okay.
So the podcast, but, but why?
You know, or I'm a designer.
I'm a copywriter, what benefit is that?
What is it that, that they are getting?
Is it, like you said, is it getting their time back?
Is it getting, you know what, whatever it is.
It, it's like being able to focus on that thing, I think, uh, and, and being reminded of that is, is really, really useful because that's what the value is.
The value is not in the actual, the, the bits and the bobs and what, you know, the, the mouse clicking.
Um, that's not the value.
The value is what that enables you as a result.
Carlos: And then the question is, how do you get to understand what that value is?
Mark: Uh, I did a, um, client survey at the end of last year, which has been really useful for me.
Um, and I think, I think you've gotta ask, I think you've gotta really find out from people, um, because people don't always tell you, you know, when you're working with them.
Uh, you know, you've, you've given me a whole, a whole lovely list of things today that you find valuable in, in the work as has Ben.
And often that stuff doesn't come out un unless you ask.
And so I think being willing to go out and try and find ways to like find out how you are helping people in ways that you didn't necessarily see.
Because again, we're focused on, well, this is the thing I deliver.
And it's like, well, yeah, but as a result of that, I've been able to do this.
And, uh, I think yeah, you've, you've gotta go out and ask.
Carlos: And, and I think this reminds me, again, of this conversation about sacred work.
When I relate it to the people that you wanna work with, these change makers, they have a relationship to the process of the work.
They, they want to do it in a certain way.
They, they love that work and they have a relationship to the people that they're trying to serve.
And there's a care and a and, and an a near uncompromising approach to that work.
You know, they're, they're driven by values rather than just a spreadsheet.
And so there's something here for me about if you are that kind of person, then I'm the kind of person to work with you.
Mark: That speaks a lot to me because that's, that's in, that's ingrained in, in, in what I do because there are certain things I can't help myself but do, um, when I'm working in, in particular projects because I'm like, if I, it, it almost doesn't occur to me to not do those things because yeah, these, these, these are sacred parts of, of the work.
Um, there are optional things that I can do, but there are just some fundamental things I'm not going to let a conversation between two people over the internet sta start to sound, um, stilted because there is a delay, you know, because of the internet delay.
I will not, I cannot, I cannot countenance that, and I will take the time to do that.
And this is why I sort of, I don't charge by the hour.
I, I charge per episode.
And, and that's probably a conversation like worth getting into at another point is, um, because I wanna make that as simple for you, Carlos and, and, and Ben and, and other people to understand like, you know, this is the episode, whatever.
For me, obviously one episode can take longer than another,, and that's for me to deal with.
But there are certain things like cutting out internet lag that are going to take me longer, but it can't not do them because that is part of the sacred work.
Carlos: And this for me is talks a bit to, as I understand it is edifying experience, so this greater knowledge of the value of your work as I work with you more and more, because I think there's a, a greater appreciation of the experience my listeners have.
And there's an interesting point.
It's like when I start getting feedback from people that they either love the podcast or love listening to me and, oh, that bit wasn't great.
It's like, oh gosh, I wanna make it better for them.
And so there's this experience.
Now I start valuing some of the finickiness that I might see before is actually, no, this is sacred work.
This is work that about caring for the other person on the other side of the mic.
So yeah, I, I, I've, have a better understanding of this idea of edifying and what I'm curious about there, and this process is like, in a sense is like at the beginning of working with you potentially, and this is potentially because I don't understand the full value of what you offer, I might not pay as much, but the longer I work with you, the more I'm be needing to pay, nearly.
Mark: Yeah.
Carlos: Talking himself into a bigger bill.
But, but it's interesting that, how do you get them to you when they already value that level of artisanal quality,?
That sacred work that you're doing?
And what does that mean?
Mark: So, I, I'm, I'm reminded of, of, someone told me, uh, ages ago, I think it might be, Laurence actually recounted, think it was a coach who offered pro bono sessions for people who really couldn't afford it, and what he would do is, or what they would do was issue a full invoice with a hundred percent discount so that you could see the value that, that you were getting.
And that helps.
I think people get that sense of investment.
Even if they haven't paid it, they understand that there is a value here.
Um, and I wonder if there's, if there are ways that we can, and I, I dunno how you do this without it being like self-congratulatory or like, I dunno, but finding a way to demonstrate this is actually what happened.
You know, you gave me this audio.
Yes.
You can hear the result.
A very, very quick example is, uh, I work with someone who's very self-conscious about certain vocal tics that they have, like saying, you know, and I will, I know that about them because I work with them and so I will always cut them out when I can, when then, when they, when
leaving them in makes it sound more natural because if I, if if words run together and you cut them, it sounds robotic and not very good.
So if I can, if they're clean, I will always remove them.
And then every now and again I'll get an email back saying, this is great, can you cut out all the, you knows?
And, and that's, you know, that's fine because this person, you know, they had that conversation a couple of weeks ago.
They don't know how many times they said you know.
I know that I spent quite a while removing them.
Um, and that's, that reflects well on me because they haven't seen the join, they haven't seen the edit.
And I can explain like, you know, whatever.
Um, but yeah, there's this finding ways that we can actually show people without it being too self-aggrandizing or whatever, like this is actually what you, what you get that you maybe didn't realize.
And I don't know how you do that.
Carlos: Yeah.
And, and there's a, an level of awareness, I think, of wine tasting, and going from the p place of like, no, I just, I like what, I like to, I only drink this type of wine.
Mark: South african Reds with, yeah, yeah,
Carlos: It is because I know it so well.
Mark: Yeah.
Carlos: And so that speaks to me of a person who's had been along on a journey beforehand, not the person who just like started a podcast and now is on Fiverr and trying.
So actually I've done that.
I've been there.
I'm now a different level where I need actually better support.
So that's just again, for anyone listening, there's this, sometimes the clients we want aren't the ones that we're trying to chase at the moment, or the clients we need aren't the ones we're trying to chase at the moment.
Mark: That's actually, yeah, I think, I think, yeah, people have to figure out first maybe what they didn't know.
Because actually that's a lot of what I'm doing now is finding the people who have got started and are maybe finding themselves a bit stuck or finding this is not quite working out as I thought.
Uh, and then being able to have that moment for, you know, to work with someone to, to help.
Okay, have you thought about these things?
So I think, yeah, there's, I dunno, there, there's, there's something in, in that reminder that actually a lot of the people you can work with are people who've already tried this thing and it hasn't necessarily worked out for them.
And that's where you get to come in with helping them with some of those expectations.
'cause you are not starting from zero.
Carlos: Mm-Hmm.
Mark: You're not starting from this crazy list of expectations that you can never meet.
They already know, like for example, with podcasting, oh, I'm, I'm probably not gonna go from zero to a thousand downloads in my first episode.
I was taught that because this, this Udemy course told me that I could.
That's, you know, surprisingly common.
Um, it's, it's working with those people at that point, almost in the Satir, like Satir change model, maybe in that sort of chaos area, to be able then to sort of help guide them out and say, okay, let's reset those expectations and, and let's work to towards something that you are gonna really find enriching.
Carlos: Yeah, it's interesting about resetting expectations.
And the other aspect for me is the sophistication of the, the buyer.
Mm-Hmm.
Mark: And when I say that is that, you know, one of the things I've learned from you and I've come, it isn't about the downloads for me as much anymore.
Mm-Hmm.
Carlos: It isn't about, and also the, the downloads is about a broader marketing strategy, but it's about the intimacy of the relationship.
It's about this is a way for me to talk to many, many people without being there.
Mark: And talk to them as a single person.
Carlos: And to do that as a, to see the value in that and to see why that's a value to me and also, well, that's the way I want to work.
And, and to, to believe in that and to understand that, then that's okay, that's why I want do podcasts.
That's why I wanna have these conversations with people.
And that's why I need to listen.
It needs to sound the way I want it to sound.
Mark: Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm really pleased that that is something that, that you, you feel, 'cause it shows that, yeah, these, these things I, I talk about, um, I, I, I'm always pleased when I say these things and then people go, oh yeah, that makes sense, because not everybody talks about that.
You know, not everybody talks about this relationship in this way.
The, the audio, the intimacy of audio has almost become a cliche.
And I think it's because people use the words and they don't really think about what that actually means.
What that relationship actually means.
Um, like I was telling some friends, uh, a couple of days ago, I nearly lost my ever loving mind because someone mentioned someone I revere, a guy called Merlin Mann, big productivity guy, he invented Inbox Zero, he's now a podcaster.
Um, he said my name on a podcast, and I went, I, I, I made an involuntary noise like I was listening and I was like, ha.
Like, because I was so excited and nervous and all this stuff, and like all of that matters because I've been listening to him for, you know, since 2011.
And this guy just said my name.
That's huge.
And that happens because I've built up this rel, this parasocial relationship.
He doesn't know who I am, but now after 11 years, he said my name.
You know, that's, that's, that's an amazing feeling.
Carlos: And there's things like that, the start to communicate the value of this work.
And this again, the message,, I mean the, uh, the, the broader message around this is don't, um, assume that everyone knows the value of what you do.
Mark: Yeah.
Carlos: They might know what you do, but they might not understand the value of what you do.
And that is our work, in whatever way we do that, whether by voice written video to, to communicate that.
thank you, Mark.
Mark: Thank you.
Carlos: So until next time, uh, and next week, enjoy your rest of the week.
And, uh, yeah, looking forward to getting that bigger bill.