Bayan on Demand offers a growing library of courses taught by highly regarded scholars and practitioners. Designed for Masjid Board Members, School Administrators, Imams. Chaplains, youth workers, parents, and more with classes on Islamic theology, adolescent development, nonprofit management, and the history of Islam in America, and more Bay and on demand provides accessible knowledge for just $10 a month. Join our growing community of learners today and support the work of Bayan Islamic graduate school. And the Muhammad Ali scholarship go to bayanonline. org. That's B A Y A N online. org to get more information. As salamu alaykum. May the peace that only God can give be upon you. Welcome to the American Muslim podcast presented by Bayan On Demand. I'm your host, Imam Tariq El Amin. And today we're going to do something a little bit different. Now, typically, I'm the one who asks the questions, attempting to guide the conversation and to draw out the stories of our guests, but this time we're going to flip the script a bit. I'm in the guest seat. So, to start, I want to remind myself and you on this platform where we invite Muslim men and women across the nation who serve in a variety of forms, some locally, some nationally, Some in the public space and some of the private space, but however they serve, they are answering the call of leadership. And the beauty of what we hope to present is not just the work that they do, but also to give a window into their origin story. To learn a bit about the journey, to learn about the mentors, to learn about who they are, how have they been formed. Now, you've probably heard the saying before that doctors make the worst patients, doctors make the worst patients. So I think about what I invite our guests to each week, and that is to be as open, as vulnerable, as transparent as they are comfortable being. And now that I am in the guest seat. It feels a little bit different. And I think a good way to start is by reflecting off of this prompt from Dr. Camila Moutman Osaguera. She teaches a class, Self Development and Spiritual Care. And I recall taking this class. As I was working towards my Master of Divinity and Islamic Chaplaincy at Bayan. And I think that this is just a great way to frame the way we see ourselves because we don't always see ourselves clearly. Or what has gone into the making of us and positioning us where we are is not always apparent to us right in the moment. It takes introspection. So that was one of the wonderful outcomes of taking that class. It was to be more introspective and more deliberate in that introspection. So, let's take a moment to listen to this clip from Dr. Kameela Mu'min Oseguera I do believe that God, however that feels for you and your tradition, um, has placed us in this room together for a very particular reason and with a purpose. And the things that we discover together are all for some purpose that may not unfold for us in this moment. But in the future, inshallah, it could be in another generation, we don't know. And so it's, it's our job to be open to discovering what that reason might be. And so as you open up your heart to yourself first, right, and then to other people in the room to really, you know, be present and understand what everyone is bringing, right, the richness, the depth, the history, the stories. This is why the self care, self development is so important. Because yes, we can read your bios, and they're all impressive. They all have something of value and of benefit to many, many communities and individuals. But how often do you get to sit and learn, Who am I really? What do I enjoy? What's something that really resonates with me as fundamental to who I am, but I hardly share it? And so there are so many aspects of who we are that kind of get closed in. We build up these walls. And so, while there are places that you're like, I'm an open book. I love to help people and I want to be of service and, you know, I want to get to know others. There are also people who are like, I want to get to know you. Who are you, this unique individual? What has brought you, all of these experiences, have brought you to this moment? One of the first things that jumps out at me from this clip from Dr. Camilo's class is really thinking about how much is too much. There is such a thing as TMI, right? Too much information in service of what we want to accomplish here. And I think that our very first episode, if you did not hear it, go back and listen. Our founding president of Bayan Islamic Graduate School, Dr. Jehad Turk, he led with vulnerability. And since then, that's something I've really wanted to make sure that we included or to make a staple of all of our conversations. It's inviting our guest to be vulnerable, to be transparent, to share their journey in hopes that people have a greater appreciation, not just for the work that they do, but to appreciate the humanity of these men and women. As for myself in the public space, and it's very difficult to get away from it. And it, I'm talking about social media and we all, I should not say we all, but many of us engage it. To different degrees and one of the things that I've always kept in mind is I do not want to become a caricature. I don't want to become this hollowed out or one sided representation of myself because I'm, I'm not here for branding purposes. And I guess you could say that anti branding or counterculture is in itself a form of branding, but I really do try to be authentic. And who I am as a father, as a brother, uh, as an Imam, as a son, as a, friend, as somebody with a sense of humor, as somebody who likes to share stories. I try to be authentically me and present that in a way that shows a regular human being. And I think that's one of the traps that it's very easy to get caught into. Uh, particularly for those who find themselves in leadership positions or positions where there is some influence. And we know we have the big I and the little I. By that I mean your influence may reach only over four or five people, right? Or you may have influence that reaches millions of people. But either way, when we begin to think about how. How whatever we say, or what we do, or what we post, or how we present ourself is going to be met with those we imagine ourselves to have influence over. It can almost become one of those situations where it becomes the tail wagging the dog. It becomes performative, and that's something that I never want to be. Which is kind of funny because when I also think about the clip and I think of who are those who have poured And to me, how, or in terms of how did this moment even come to be, how did I come to be the, the host and the producer of this particular program, or how did I come to serve as the Imam of Masjid al Taqwa here in Chicago? How did I come to all of these different spaces that I serve in or occupy? Was it just my personal motivation? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I have to begin by sharing that I believe that despite the tendency to wrap ourselves in this idea of rugged individualism and American exceptionalism, the idea of being self made and self sufficient, we know that it is exactly the opposite. That we are not self made. We are not self sufficient. We are not independent. As a Muslim, I know that all of these descriptions, all of these attributes go back to Allah, go back to God. Allah is the only one who is independent. Allah is the only one who is self sufficient. And that means that one of the journeys or one of the challenges that we're invited to take on is to be independent. Inquisitive. And that's also one of the reasons that I wanted to begin with that particular clip, because it's an invitation to self inquisition, to think about ourselves, to think about how we've been shaped. So for me, I always go back to the Hadith, the narration of the prophet Muhammad, peace and prayers be upon him, who responded three times with your mother to a man who asked him, who does he give his honor to? Who does he honor first? Who does he give his love to first, right? Who is the most deserving of that? And he replied three times, your mother. And on the fourth time, he said, your father. So, for me, when I think about my formation, when I think about what's been poured into me, I'm gonna begin with my mother. And I think about this wonderful woman, Zakiyyah El Amin, a theater arts instructor, a drama teacher, a playwright, who gathered all of these children, myself, my siblings, my neighbors, my cousins. Off of the block, summertime, early, was it late 70s, early 80s, and gave us lines. Had us learning poems from Paul Lawrence Dunbar and Langston Hughes and Rudia Kipling and learning the lines to original skits that she had wrote. And then taking us after we had learned our lines and practiced and practiced and took us to senior homes to perform. And watching the eyes of, of these seniors when we would come in. And I recall how some of them would be wet with tears. And they would have these smiles that would just come over their faces. And they were just radiating joy. And they would stand up. And some would clap vigorously from their wheelchairs. And they would hug us and, and, and ask for us to come back. I remember this today and understand what I was a part of. I was a part of community and service all at the same time. So in the theater, unless you're doing a one person show, right? It's not about the individual. Even if you're the lead, you still have to play off of and with other people in the cast. I learned some of the most valuable lessons and was sensitized to perceive deep. We are conditioned to see communal work in a different way, to see collaboration and connection in different ways, because what we're conditioned to see here, what I have seen, is we're conditioned with this idea of American exceptionalism, this idea of rugged individualism, as I said earlier, to think that we have built ourselves, and also we are conditioned to see the world through a scarcity lens, that there is not enough For all of us in the theater and the theater acting together as a part of a cast, you realize at the end of the show, everybody steps up and we all take a bow and we all receive the applause. There's enough applause for everyone. There's enough. That's a huge perception shift and being able to go out and share our preparation to share our teamwork. With our elders, with people who have, unfortunately, and are often left by the wayside to be of service to them, to share the creativity, talent, the energy, to share those things with them, to make their days a bit better. That was community and service. And my mother did this and has done this for over 40 years. So I didn't know what I was looking at. I didn't recognize that. My own inclination to share stories in the way that I do actually started with my mother. I, and it may sound crazy, but I hadn't really thought about that. I did know that she taught us how to project. She taught us how to articulate. She taught us to learn our lines and to embody, try to embody the character. But as Dr. Kameelah mentioned, it was thinking about what are the things. That have brought us to this moment. So I have to begin with my mother. And then I go to my father, Imam Tariq H El-Amin. May Allah have mercy on him and grant him paradise. He returned to Allah in 2012 and I have followed in his footsteps in many, many ways, but it was through him that I was able to learn what resilience and resourcefulness look like. I learned what it meant to be a man. So my father was an iron worker. He was a writer. He was a teacher, uh, as I mentioned, he was a, he was an Imam and I've met few people who have the breadth and depth of knowledge that he had. He was a voracious reader. I mean, voracious, like really ate those books up, right? He could take a 350, 400 page book and read it in a night. His ability to synthesize, to analyze information, to connect it to what may seem to be unrelated fields. Was absolutely astounding and to this day, his example is an aspiration and, and I do consider myself a reader, a student, perpetual student, but what my parents have done for me, and I should also mention that my father was the, block club president. He was the block club president. the work that my parents did for us, for the community growing up, it was the first live examples that I got to see. Of leadership, of community building, of service, all of these things in action, all things that I feel deeply connected to and represent what I feel is my life's work. It is really me continuing what they have passed on to me. And when I think about who I'm the beneficiary of, of course, as I mentioned, my parents, I'm a second generation Muslim because of my parents, my parents joined the nation of Islam in the 60s. And then. at that time under the leadership of the late honorable Elijah Muhammad, and then went on to follow and support the leadership of Imam Warith Deen Mohammed. So family, if you all are not familiar with the Imam Warith Deen Mohammed, the short amount of time that we have here will not suffice. I invite you, I suggest, I encourage you to do some research, just go to the Wikipedia page and look them up. But he was the successor to. The honorable Elijah Muhammad, he was responsible in 1975, he was responsible for the largest mass conversion of people to Islam in the history of this nation. And by that, I mean the normative practices and understandings of Islam globally, having nothing to do with cultural influences or representations that you may find as you move about the world. But the Adherence to the belief that there is no God, but God and Muhammad peace and prayers be upon him is his messenger and seal of the prophets. So the belief in the five pillars, the, the core principles of Islam, he directed that he moved the community in that direction. He's responsible for that growth and he built upon the legacy that he inherited a legacy of doing for self, a legacy of economic dignity. That now had, included and presented Muslims in America, something that before that not been realized. And that was a pathway to civic participation. He delivered the first invocation in the U. S. Senate by Muslim in 1992. He addressed the Georgia state legislature and participated in the inaugural interfaith press services for former President Bill Clinton. He met with Pope John Paul II at the Vatican in 96. He addressed Muslims in the U. S. military and its chaplains. He encouraged Muslim Americans to participate in American politics and economics. And while, the community spent a great deal of its time in its development as a counterculture organization that did not participate directly in the politics of the nation. Under the Imam's leadership, these are things that he encouraged. civic participation. He did all of this while also staying true to speaking for and encouraging the community that he came from and recognizing the challenges, the opportunities, and the unique situation When we began to hear Islam in the public, we knew who had caused that. It was the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and his followers that caused the name Islam to be heard in the public. That caused the name Muhammad to be heard in the public. And Allah, the name of God, Allah as we call it, to be heard in the public. It was the Honorable Elijah Muhammad temples of Islam, his followers that did that, and I don't think any of us would disagree that Malcolm. Muhammad Ali were, other than Honorable Elijah Muhammad and our efforts they were the two people that did more to popularize Islam in America than anybody else. Malcolm and Muhammad Ali. Muhammad Ali because of the situation he had as the world's greatest fighter. And Malcolm because of his youth, his intelligence, his articulate speech, his aggressiveness, his belief that that what he had deserved an audience, deserved public attention, and his opinion could not be defeated. Anyone who knew him personally, you knew that Malcolm never, never anticipated any defeat. It didn't come to his mind that anybody could defeat him, you see. So because of that, that, uh, he became so popular. And he helped the army like Muhammad popularized Muslims in America. Yes, I always loved God. I always loved the Prophet Muhammad. The mention of his name, I didn't know much about him as a child. But I just loved his name. I loved the mention of his name. And, I love the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and all the Muslims that supported him and loved him. I just loved them. They were just like, they became dear to me just like very close relatives inside the home. And I still feel that same way about them. And I also love Uh, the, I would say, how can I put this? I love the life of a Muslim under the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. I don't know any other way to put it. I love the life of a Muslim under the, I love it. Still love it. I have retained it. Yes. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad told us not to drink, not to lie, not to steal, not to be dishonest, to respect authority, to respect ourselves and others. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us a lot. He taught us to be good. He taught us to, to be industrious. He taught us, he taught us to take our own affairs into our own. And that's why I don't think anyone is in the audience. And went back and against the good teachings that we received from the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. I never would be where I am now. You would never have supported me like you have. Me. So I am in debt for where I am now. So when we talk about America, Islam in America, I want you to know. That we had very wonderful before we even came to truly know Islam. We had a wonderful experience. We didn't know Islam. Now, thank God for his mercy on us. Again, I can say now we know Islam. Don't be ashamed to say I appreciate the good. That Honorable Elijah Muhammad passed on to me. For me, that last sentiment. Actually, I won't start at the end. I'll start more towards the beginning and that was the sentiment that. Imam Muhammad shared about how he loved the life and he was referencing the community life, the, the spirit of connection, the spirit of a shared purpose, shared history. And in that there is something really beautiful and that's something that can be transmitted from one generation to the next. So there's something really beautiful in that. It's, and that's the love of community. And I feel like a beneficiary of that. So I am an alum of the Sister Clara Muhammad School System. I went there from 1st through 8th grade. And the school prior to it being named after the mother of Imam Warith Deen Mohammed it was referred to as the Muhammad University of Islam. And after taking on the position of leadership in 1975, went on to rename as a refocusing effort that took place. Now, what most folks may not know is that Clara Muhammad was the progenitor. She was the, the driving force behind homeschooling here in the United States of America. Now I'm going to make some assumptions. family that everybody who is listening is someone who has number one, has some curiosity and is a thinker. We know the value and the importance of education. And so did Clara Muhammad. She understood what W. E. B Du Bois wrote about and the miseducation of the Negro, the impact of being miseducated, right? It is to be deprived of your dignity is to be deprived of hope. It's to be deprived of a vision of your place in society. And she said, over my dead body, right? This is in Detroit in the 19, early 20th century. And she's telling the truant officers, the officials, that you are not going to be able to miseducate my children. No, I'm not going to give my children to you to fill their heads with nothing and for them to see nothing for themselves. So she said, no, you're not taking my children. And the result of this stance. Is that we now have in the United States of America, a continually burgeoning growth of homeschool collectives, cooperatives, associations, where parents have taken the responsibility for educating their children into their own hands and honoring the stance and the commitment to education and the preservation of our young minds. The school system was named after Sister Clara Muhammad. Today there are at least 20 sister Claire Muhammad schools within that association. And I went to Sister Clara Muhammad school here in Chicago. And one of the greatest things that I feel like I received from that experience was a love for my community, a love for my own identity and what I bring to the, what I bring to the ummah All right, because this diversity that we have with, within the ummah, within the, the community, the, the collection of Muslim cultures and ethnicities and mother tongues, the beauty of it is in recognizing those distinctions and how they compliment one another and how we're able to learn and benefit from each other. And if you don't have a sense of value. A sense of self worth, then you actually are operating at a deficit and being. A student there. It filled me with a Sense of freedom, a sense of belonging, where we come to grow to learning that we must know our for our sister dear. Revealing the struggles that we may. We have a place to grow today. Sister Clara Mohamad, Clara Muhammad school. We'll never forget. The lessons we've learned will take the weight of giving to us and give it to others in turn. How proud we are to wear her name. a memory we hold dear she already knowledge for us, we. All right. I was pretty obvious that the brother did not know the words to the song and he wanted to sing along with the children. He got himself a little caught up and that's fine. That's fine. it was great for me to hear the song and think about. How wonderful a path that lays for the subconscious mind that can manifest itself consciously. This idea of preparing oneself for leadership or preparing oneself to be an agent of liberation, to be prepared for the challenges of life through education. It says we'll take the knowledge given to us and share it with others. In turn, these are things really resonate with me because they are specific to our history, the communal consciousness that has produced sayings, like if one can eat, then two can eat or each one teach one, right? These are ingrained in the communal consciousness because of a shared history and what I've always appreciated. About my experience at Sister Clara Muhammad School is that I was not taken away from that shared history. That history, if anything, it was preserved. It was given a place of importance. And it was pointed to as the impetus for the acquisition. Or the accumulation or the seeking out of knowledge, right? This knowledge would actually serve a purpose. It would serve a greater purpose down the line. It wasn't just about that particular moment, but it was about preparing us for what would come. Now think about those sayings like each one, teach one, if one can eat, the two can eat thinking about moving away from the scarcity mindset. Are part of the way that I see not just leadership, but service and storytelling one might not necessarily think of it as a story, but the Chicago black Muslim history tour, which I found in the work with members from the masjid al-taqwa community to facilitate was a biannual tour. And we're starting to do more tours. For educational institutions outside of the black history month tour and the one we do around Juneteenth, but it is sharing this very unique history of a community that has been here in the Chicagoland area since 1934 to talk about the social, the moral, the cultural, the economic impact that this particular community has had the idea of being stewards for our families, for our neighborhoods. For inviting people in, for trying to clean people up. And it's odd how history seems to repeat itself because I feel like we're in a position now that as the public policies and what is considered to be legal have pushed us towards even greater Levels of intoxication and inebriation, there is just as great a need now as there has ever been to call people back to sober minded thinking, because there's really no way for people to be active participants in society, in governance, there's no way for people to really be real stewards, not just of them, of themselves, but of their communities and do it with one eye open. To do it halfway awake, to do it stumbling. So the messages that were given and that what we refer to as the first experience under the leadership of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and continued sober minded thinking coupled with the participation in the public space that Imam Muhammad ushered in and was willing to model. For us and for American Muslims, it becomes even more apparent, this is an endeavor for the prepared. It's for people who understand that information is a resource, knowledge is a resource, and is not one to be hoarded. We take it on prepared to share it because those that we share it with may actually end up being the leaders that are going to have the impact. That's needed to, right the ship. Speaking personally, I never look at things as, you know, I am the, the vessel. I'm the one that's going to do X, Y, Z. it's a position of grabbing a baton and then being ready to pass the baton. One of the people that I've always admired and appreciated as millions of other people have as well has been the champ Muhammad Ali. I've appreciated him for a variety of reasons. But it's only recently that I've been able to connect two instances, two occasions, separated by about 40 years and see how Allah continues to bless us in ways that we are completely unaware of. He gives us remembrance as a way to tap into and see that blessing. So about 40 years ago, I remember being a Muslim. A little boy, seven, eight years old in the masjid on Chicago South side, Stony Island, the big masjid, everybody is coming there. And Muhammad Ali used to come to the masjid and I don't remember how often he came, but I remember him coming to the masjid enough that on a couple of occasions he would see me and he would pick me up and he would hold me. He would see me, pick me up, hold me, and not just pick me up and hold me and put me down, but he would hold me for a minute. People would be around. And I remember what it felt like just hanging out. And I remember being happy because I knew who the champ was. Everybody knew who the champ was, but it wouldn't be until 40 years later that as I am. Preparing to do what one of my other mentors who will have to mention, and you know, may Allah accept all of his good works and give him good in this life and the next Imam Sultan Salahuddin, who told me at the outset, this is probably 30 years ago, I was working as a youth mentor, in the masjid doing youth work. I came up to him and asked, well, I'm interested in, I don't know what made me walk up to him and say this, but his response has always stayed with me. He said, qualify yourself because I asked him, what do I need to do? He said, qualify yourself. I think that I have been on a lifetime mission to qualify myself and to constantly be engaged in introspection and constantly thinking about what else do I need? That I don't have because of the, the upbringing that I have going back to participatory leadership and seeing leadership in so many different ways. I've never put the burden of trying to be all things to all people on my shoulders. I'm always looking for who complements the mission, who has another piece while at the same time. Seeking to gain more so that I can give more. So 40 years later, after Muhammad Ali has picked me up and tell me, I find out about Bayan Islamic Graduate School. I'm working full time. I've got a family. I'm serving as the Imam of the Masjid and now this opportunity comes along for me to pursue a Master of Divinity and Islamic chaplaincy. This is right up my alley. I can become credentialed. I can take classes with reputable scholars with practitioners. I can really be in that space. And it's an executive program. I can do this online. I only have to meet once a term in person. I can work that out. But where am I going to get the money? I can't afford this. Not right now. I was already in school at one point. And the schedule conflicted with my work schedule and I had to leave school alone. This is when I was at American Islamic College. So, and shout out to them as well. They're doing great work. I've got a lot of love for my AIC folks over there, but it didn't work at that time. So the opportunity is here, but I don't see the access. How am I going to hold this up? How am I going to do this? Enter the Muhammad Ali scholarship. The Muhammad Ali scholarship allowed me to pursue the MDiv on a full time basis to complete the program in three years. In that process, I was able to expand myself in ways that I had not expected. Knowledge has a way of bringing about expansion, of giving clarity. So I guess that was the expectation. But it's just a beautiful thing to be witnessed, to be a part of that, to have a bird's eye view, to be in the driver's seat for it to happen. So I was able to take classes like spiritual care and self development, adolescent development, counseling Muslims, nonprofit management, history of Islam, Quranic composition, and many other classes. I was able to be in community with other. Men and women who have dedicated themselves to serving their communities. And it was an affirming experience, but it's an experience that I believe I appreciate all that much more because of my upbringing, because of what was poured into me to make that connection. Just like Muhammad Ali picked me up as a seven or eight year old. He metaphorically picked me up when I was 47. The support of that scholarship. Made a difficult journey, worth it, there has to be some rigor, but it made it accessible. It opened the doors for me. So I like to say that Muhammad Ali picked me up as a kid and as an adult. This is part of the communal legacy. This is a part of, for me, this is what animates me. It's telling stories, it's building community, it's getting more so that I can give more. I want to encourage you to support the mission of Bayan Islamic Graduate School and share the podcast with others. We are with you every week, inshallah, God willing, please keep me in your dua, I will keep you in mind. May Allah make it easy for all of us. And if it can't be easy, then Make us stronger. You can support the work of Bayan Islamic Graduate School by going to bayan online.org. That's bayan online.org. B-A-Y-A-N online.org. Get a membership to Bayan on Demand. You heard it at the very beginning. We got 30 classes. We're adding more as we go along. $10 a month. Top-notch scholars, practitioners that you're learning from. Join the Bayan Learning Community. Get a membership for yourself, for your family. Get a membership for that person that's always giving you the side eye. You never know. This is a great peace offering. I like to tell people that. The ban on demand is a great peace offering to give to that person that's always looking at you crazy. All right. With that, we're going to get out of here. I'm your host. I'm your brother. Imam Tariq Al Amin. Assalamualaikum. We'll even take a chance on saying he's good or he's halfway good or not. It's up to Allah, God, to be the judge. So, I'm not gonna say one thing about, uh, how good I am because I don't know. We never get good enough. I'm always striving to be right. And you asked me another question. Why did I change? Because, uh, I was raised a Baptist. And after touring the world, uh, I found out that there are 600 million Muslims on the planet. And all religions are good. I wrote something once. It says, Rivers, lakes, and streams. They all have different names, but they all contain water. So does religions have different names, and they all contain God and the truth, only expressed in different ways, forms, and times. What Jesus taught was good. What Moses taught was right. What Buddha taught was right. What Christian taught was right. What Isaiah, Lot, Noah God has always sent prophets to different people at different times, with messages for those people. And people have decided to choose those prophets as their leader. Some follow Krishna. Some follow Buddha. Some follow Mohammed. Some follow Jesus. Some follow whoever. But Moses, all of them are right. Jesus made a statement, I come not to destroy no law of the prophet, but to fulfill. All of God's prophets are right. You gotta believe in all of them. So, if the person follow Buddha, and do what Buddha said, they'll see God, and believe in Him. If a person follow Krishna and live what he preached, he'll be good. If a person follow Moses and live like Moses preached, if they follow Jesus, they follow a lot, any of the prophets. So, I decided to take the Islamic path. The Christian path is a perfect religion if the people practice. And you have two coats, give me one. I'm hungry, you feed me. Love your enemy. Pray for those who use you. Forgive. Give charity. Don't hate. Christianity is a perfect religion. It's the people who don't live the religion. The religion is good, but the people do things in the name of the religion. A lot of Muslims do things they shouldn't do. A lot of Protestants, a lot of Buddhists, a lot of Hindus live like they shouldn't live. But the religion itself, the religion is right, but the people who follow the religion ain't so right. So I choose to follow the Islamic path because I never saw so much love. I never saw So many people hugging each other, kissing each other, praying five times a day. The women in the long garments, the way they would eat. You can go to any country and say, As salamu salam. You got a home, you got a brother. I chose the Islamic path because it connected me. As a Christian in America, I couldn't go to the white churches. Uh, as a Christian, uh, that was for those people. It did them good. It didn't do me good. Uh, I saw Jesus Christ. I saw a white man with blonde and blue eyes. I look at the Lord suffering Christianity, I see all white people. You are Asiatic girl. I see a man behind you is dark. All the pictures of angels are white. Why come we never go to heaven? Why come the Mexican don't go to heaven and fly around? Why the Puerto Rican, all the angels happen to be white angels. I look at Peter was white. Mary was white. Paul was white. God's son Jesus was white. Uh, everything was white. Tarzan, the king of the jungles, he was white. And the angel food cake was made white, and the devil food cake was chocolate. And if I threaten you, I'm gonna blackmail you. Black was always bad in the western world. Uh, the black cat was the bad luck. Uh, if you get put out of a fraternity group, you get blackballed. Uh, black was always bad. So, the only thing that made me feel good The only thing that made me feel free that connected me with Saudi Arabia, the Islamic religion, connected me with Pakistan, Morocco, Syria. I sat down with Colonel Qaddafi, had dinner in his palace, stayed overnight because I'm a Muslim. As a Christian, I never could sit with Christian leaders. As a Muslim, I sat with Sadat, I sat with President Nasser, um, uh, Marcos of the Philippines, Ayub Khan of Pakistan before he died. I've been sitting with kings of, uh, Sheikh Zayed of Abu Dhabi. Kings and people of these nations have welcomed me as a brother, and I'm a citizen. And now in America, I'm respected by all colors and throughout the world as a Muslim. See, the name Muhammad is the most common name in the world. There are more and more Hamids on the planet. There are 4 billion people on Earth, and every third person is a Muslim. So, for me, I'm not condemning no other religion, but for me, they're a world figure. John, taking the name Muhammad Ali, which is the name of my people for the birth of America, accepting the Islamic religion, it was better for me. Where another person, Shintuism, Buddhism, uh, uh, uh, Christianity, Baptist, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, that might fit another man. But you can choose any religion you want. If you believe it, you'll see God, because all of them are good. So I chose the Islamic religion. That's why I chose it. Mohammed, Mohammed, uh, Now, after the boxing, after the boxing, I would like to be a minister. Don't you think I preach pretty good? Very good. Don't I make it plain? Yes. Don't you understand now? You ask me, you ask me some pretty, you ask me some pretty tough questions, but didn't I make a lot of sense? I didn't, I didn't make the Christians hate me. I didn't make the Protestants hate me. I didn't make the Catholics hate me. I told you the truth. I said, all of them are good if they live it. It's just the people don't live it. So I chose this. I'm prepared. That's a, religion is a touchy thing. Religion. Very few people can see. I, some people, you say, I'm a Muslim. Don't want to hear you. Some people, you say, I'm a Protestant. Pow, pow. You say, I'm a Catholic. Pow, pow. All of them are right. All of them are from God. All of them are good and teach good. It's just the people and the titles that make you prejudiced. But all of them got the same. It says, one God, but there are many roads to that God. You understand? This is the power of this. You see me do this, you call me the greatest. That's because I'm more religious than I am physical, and I study a lot. And you may be surprised if you hear me talk, because you never heard me talk this way. But I know about, I got about 45 lectures that I memorized. In my ministry, and I can tell you something about all the religious books, all the religions, because I'm a strong believer in God and humanity. That's why I'm helping these boys. That's why God blesses me to be so great here. Because all the time I've been here, I've been talking about God. Pushing God. Pushing religion. I'm not talking about me, how great I am, how much money I got. I'm always giving the praise to God. So that's why I'm as great as I am in this physical world, because I push Him first.