WDW what does it mean to be a Disney Adult? Is it just loving the parks and collecting merch? Or is it something deeper about joy, identity and how we choose to live our lives? Well, this week I talked to AJ Wolf, the founder of Disney Food Blog and the author of Disney Adults, about the passion, stereotypes and culture of this often misunderstood community. Whether you proudly call yourself a Disney Adult or just wonder why so many grownups embrace the magic, this conversation might just change the way you see Disney fandom and maybe even yourself. Hello my friend and welcome to WW Radio, your guide to the Disney parks and experiences around the world. I am Lou Mongello and this is show number 842. And whether this is your first time listening or you've been with me since the very beginning, thank you and welcome home. Don't forget to be part of the community and conversation over in the clubhouse@www.radio.com clubhouse and watch and chat with me and other members of the community this and every Wednesday at 7:30pm Eastern on Facebook and YouTube and to get a little bit of Disney Magic delivered free to your inbox every week. Please sign up for my free weekly email newsletter and when you do, I'll send you a free gift over@www.radio.com newsletter and if you are a creator or entrepreneur ready for clarity, growth, results, the right room can change everything. And this October in Walt Disney World, my Momentum Weekend workshop is your four day reset. In this 50 person one room workshop, you're going to learn directly from experts, connect with fellow creators and leave with more than notes. You can leave with actual transformation. But hurry. Momentum is just one month away, only seven seats remain and the early bird discount ends soon. You can learn more. Find out more about the speakers, sessions, topics and the 200 plus page workbook that you're going to leave with over@lumangello.com momentum and if you're planning your own conference, workshop or team event, I bring Disney Magic to the stage with keynote presentations on storytelling, customer service and experience, leadership and creating unforgettable moments, all inspired by lessons from Walt Disney and the Disney Parks. Your audience leaders and teams won't just get inspired, they're going to leave with practical and tactical strategies they can apply to their business immediately. I'd love to help make your event extraordinary and you can learn more. And reach out to me over@loomangello.com, and when you're ready to plan your next Disney vacation, trust my friends over at Mouse Fan Travel. They offer free expert planning from the team and people that I have loved and relied on for more than 18 years to help make every trip seamless and unforgettable. You can visit them over@m MouseFanTravel.com and as always, my friend, and you are my friend, whether we have met yet or not. If you like the show, please rate, review and share it with a friend. It is the best way to help others discover the magic and grow our community. And your support means more than you know. But for now, sit back, relax and enjoy this week's episode of the WW Radio show. What is a Disney Adult like? What does it really mean to be a Disney Adult? Is it about nostalgia or passion or community? Or maybe is it something much deeper about who we are and what brings us joy? And today, I am very excited to welcome back my friend. I think I can call her my friend, H.A. wolf. She is the founder of Disney Food Blog, a site that literal millions of Disney fans turn to for reviews and tips and all things delicious. Disney food discoveries. But beyond food, AJ Is so much more because she has spent years studying and living the Disney adult experience, whatever that is. We'll find out. And now she has written a fascinating new book, appropriately titled Disney Adults, that is going to dive into the heart of what I think is this often very misunderstood community and maybe even name itself. We're going to explore what draws grown ups to Disney, how fandom shapes Disney, the stereotypes and the stigmas. And along the way, I think we may even see ourselves and maybe even in our own Disney passions a little bit differently. AJ welcome back.

Thanks, Lou. I'm so you guys. I had to beg Lou to let me come on his show. He's a very busy man and I'm so glad that we're finally able to connect and chat and it's so good to be here.

Well, first things first, like, huge, huge, like sincere congratulations. Like I'm giving a virtual hug across the screen, like, huge congratulations on the book one, because it is just, it is a huge accomplishment. I think so many people say they're going to write a book and then there's a very small number that actually bridge that gap and do it. More importantly, Disney Adults has been incredibly well received at last count. And I'm watching the ticker basically every single day. Number seven on the New York Times bestseller list.

It was number four.

Oh, there you go.

At one point. And we're trying to get it back up there.

You just screenshot that number four every single day. Yeah, that is. It is incredible. And we're going to certainly talk more. But before, before we go forward, let's go back. Like, we got way back, you and I. But I want you to tell me a little bit about the AJ Disney Food Blog origin story, really, for a little bit of context, because it's not just about how and when, but and why. I think most importantly, you started this journey. Because I think that answer is going to become more important as we start to go on.

Origin story.

Hi, I'm aj. I was worried. Give me the short, condensed version, like how you started your. Well, well, how about. You don't have to go that far back. How about just your. Your Disney journey origin story.

Yeah, I'm not. I'm not good at short and condensed. Okay.

Hi, I'm Lou. Have we met? It's fine.

Once upon a time. No, I've been it. I've been a Disney fan all my life. My, you know, I used to. My parents used to take us down to Florida, like Clearwater beach and stuff like that for spring breaks. And so we would take one day to go to Disney and it was rope drop to fireworks and then sleep in the car on the way back to the condo kind of thing. And we'd only go every couple of years. You know, we didn't go all the time, but that was enough for me to connect with my. My dad over the original 1982 Epcot center music that we. That we got to experience because we were both huge fans of that. Moving on. I was influenced by the. The ABC sitcom families going to Disney World. Like, that was a great marketing tactic for as far as I'm concerned. And so I said to my family when I got into my teens, like, hey, we should go to Disney World again. And I think we went a couple times. But then after that, when I got into college, I was like, man, I just want to. I just want to escape all this. When I moved to New York City, it was dark and cold and dirty and I wanted to leave. And so I. I would spend all my money going to Disney World. So that's kind of the origin story is. Is. Is how I've started to become a Disney adult. Really. And then after then, since then, it's. It's just. It's all history.

So. But. But what is that? What Is that moment? Or what is that time? Or what is that? Because I, because, like, I know that I had it, but that moment that you start to first realize that Disney isn't just something that you enjoy. It's going to become this lifelong passion that now is going to help shape your career. And as we're talking about in terms of context, that Disney adults really sort of shape your identity.

I do think that that happened when I was living in New York City and I was really, honestly just not super excited about my current life. And I wanted something that was cleaner and happier and more joyful. And I kind of turned to Disney in that, to fulfill that desire. But I also started reading all the message boards. That was back in the early 2000s, and the message boards were so huge at that point. And it was, it was something, it was almost a challenge for me to learn as much as I could about, about it. And so that sort of became my obsession, was how much can I learn about this? And how good can I be at figuring out this, you know, this vacation destination? So it was like a little challenge for me. And that just, I don't know, that just shaped me. Like, I was like, I love it, love learning about it, and I love experiencing it. So it just became a hobby that, that I would do with all of my spare time.

And I think for you and me and probably a lot of us who are in this space, our journeys are relatively similar and at the very least, somewhat parallel. We have this thing that we love. We, for one reason or other, we go from consumers to creators with no, I mean, maybe you did. I did not have any sort of grand plan. This is going to be my business. This is going to be my career going forward. Because you and I, we had other lives, right? I was a lawyer. You were doing many different things. And then at some point it does. That sort of flip switch gets flipped. But for the book, like, why this book? Like, and why now is this? Is it because did you feel like you just had this story you needed to tell? Was it to satisfy your own curiosity or fascination? Was a little bit of introspection?

This was not something I actually wanted to attempt. I was talking with Simon and Schuster about doing a book, and I said.

As everyone does, of course, everybody's just.

Sitting down with Simon, you know, And I was like, and here's a bunch of ideas. And they're like, well, what if we do this instead? And so it was not something that I pitched because I, I, I wasn't, I, I felt it might be, you know, it's a huge topic. It's a controversial topic. It's something that you're gonna have to dig into and help really help people understand it. Everybody thinks they have. Everybody thinks they know what a Disney adult is. Everybody has an opinion, but nobody actually knows anything about us. And, you know, we just sort of became the whipping boy online for. For a lot of other hobbies during COVID and when everybody was really angry online. And Disney adults just sort of became the butt of the joke. But nobody really understood us or knew why we were the butt of the joke. They just knew we were the butt of the joke. And so I think when my editor at Simon and Schuster was like, I think someone needs to do this book right now, it made a lot of sense and it was very scary to attempt it. But I was like, all, you know, let's do this. Because I've seen both sides of this and I know, you know, I know a lot of Disney adults. I am a Disney adult. I'm also very analytical about this whole thing. So I was ready to kind of attack it, I guess, and write the definitive guide on who we are.

So I have so many questions and so much to unpack because, look, you've been covering Disney for years on Disney Food Blog, but this book obviously feels much more personal and to your point, much more sort of cultural. But. And I'm sort of happy that you talked about this non definitive definition of what a Disney adult is. I'm going to be completely transparent with you, and this is probably the oldest old man thing I may or may not say today. Much to my chagrin, the very first time I really heard this used colloquially. Colloquially was from, of course, my kids. My daughter said something about Disney adults and I was like, yes, I'm an adult who loves Disney. Which only made it worse because little did I know that there was this negative connotation to this term. I thought a Disney adult was an adult who has this deep, genuine passion for Disney, whether it's the movies or the parks or history or food or pins or merch or all the above. And it wasn't just this sort of casual fandom, but at varying degrees and, you know, width and breadth of the spectrum. It was part of their lifestyle, part of their identity. And again, I was almost, you know, because that's what our kids do. Made to feel embarrassed that, like, no, dad, like, Disney Adult is not necessarily something that is used in the most complimentary of ways.

Right, exactly. It's, it's. It was very Interesting. You know, I have seen all of the, the viral TikToks and the Reddit threads about Disney adults and, and, and the examples of Disney adults, which are, some of them I think are authentic and some of them I think are fictional. But the, the first key was defining Disney adults. Right? And, and going digging into the urban dictionary definitions, looking at, you know, the fact that there are dating apps, people on dating apps in Anaheim and Orlando that literally put at the top of their profile, no Disney adults, like, they don't even want you involved in, in what they're doing. So there's a lot of negativ, and that's for a lot of different reasons. You know, chapter four, we'll dig into that. Like, why are we so hated? Like, what is that about? But so defining Disney adults. I, I talked to a lot of psychologists about what, what would we, how would we define this particular term and not making it positive or negative. And so what we leaned into was a Disney adult is someone who intentionally and willingly brings Disney into their lives, whether or not they have k, whether or not they're a millennial, you know, all of these little stereotypical pieces. It's just if, if you bring Disney into your life on purpose as an adult, then, then you are a Disney adult. But I do think it's a spectrum. I think that there are people who, this is their whole personality, this is their whole life, this is what they, they base their worth on. And then there are people who, you know, go to, go to Disney every couple of years because they want to ride the new ride, and that's the. Or people who just really like Disney music and want to listen to Disney music. And that's the other thing about Disney adults is I think it's such a huge community. People want to put us in a box and you really can't. It is much more of a spectrum. There are Disney movie Disney adults who don't care about the parks at all. There are merchandise Disney adults who only are going to collect the merchandise. And they're not going to care about the movies or, you know, the music or the parks or the history or imagineering. You know, so there's lots, lots of the Disney adults even have specializations like they, they go deep into one or two things because there's just so much. Disney owns everything at this point. You know, you can have, I consider Star wars fans Disney adults. And, and it's just, it's kind of impossible to love all of it at that level.

Yeah, when I first started, which again, not to sort of date myself was sort of pre social media. I was just, I thought there was like this big bucket of Disney fans. I didn't realize like the pin people don't care about the movies and the movie people might not care about the parks. And there are these, and I think wonderfully so, all of these little sub, sub, sub cultures. Because whoever your people are, you do have now the ability to go out and find them. When I started my discussion forum, discussion boards and forums in 2004, I thought I was the only semi adult living in his basement that loved Disney as much as I did. As people came in by the hundreds and then the thousands, I was like, wow. Like I do feel like I'm not the only person, because I did. But I started to sort of get a better understanding of what that looked like. But you talk about how, you know, some people are mocked, they're ridiculed as Disney adults. You sort of use the term frame to. It's the, the term cadalt. And I, I start to see because I do it myself almost unintentionally, we are defending ourselves almost against that term. I'm like, I'm not a Disney adult. They're like, whoa, Mangello, you quit your job, you sold your house, you moved to Disney. You talk about Disney for a living. You live behind Magic Kingdom. Like, dude, you're Disney. Like, no, no, no. I'm an adult who loves Disney. And I mean, yes, look, I am a 9 year old boy trapped in a much older body, but I'm proud of that. Like I'm proud that I like the place is still special to me. It still brings me joy and I still get, you know, a smile on my face when I see the castle because I don't go every single day. God bless those of you who do. But it is something that brings me joy. It's brought me joy generationally with going with my parents and then taking my kids. And I don't think that this fandom is all that much different from sports super fans or comic book collectors, of which I am as well too, or music devotees. Like if you go to a concert or if you go to, you know, a comic convention, you are going to see the same thing again on a broad spectrum. But it is about this joy and I think belonging and meaning to something that we all have this shared love of.

Yeah. And I, I really kind of dig into that a bunch in the book too is what makes why does everybody hate us but they don't hate NFL fans, You know, or they, you know, it's, it's okay to be a Star Trek fan, but it's not okay to be a Disney fan. And so what I, what I kind of deduced there was one of the big, one of the big issues, one of the big things that makes us different from a lot of other hobbyists is that the thing that we love is supposed to be for kids, right? Like, people don't understand why you would still like something that is made for children. It's kind of, it's kind of like lumped into that whole, like if you collect My Little Ponies or if you, like, you know, you're, you're, you're super into, I don't know, getting those real life baby dolls, you know, like, like there's like, the people are like, well, this is for kids. Why, why haven't you outgrown this yet? Because, and the thing is that, you know, as, as Disney, as Walt Disney himself said, you know, you're dead if you aim only for kids. You, you have to entice the adults as well kind of thing. So. And I think that that's what a lot of these folks don't understand is that they may see that, they may see Disney as something for kids, but Disney is actually much, much bigger than that. And you know, I often will say, you know, they literally just gave prime real estate in Epcot to an lounge, which they've never done before. And I do think that the Disney adult community is growing. It will continue to grow. You're seeing a lot, you're seeing statistically people having fewer children. So you're going to see more and you're seeing the, the nostalgia from the, the community that grew up with Disney movies on tape, right? Disney movies on their VCR and being able to just rewind and play again. That community that grew up in the 90s, they are kind of asserting themselves as the Disney adult community. And you're going to have more and more and more and more of those coming in, people who grew up on Disney movies that could watch them 24 7. So I do think it's going to grow. I think that the community is going to get bigger. But yeah, that's why people. Was one of the reasons people don't like us is because they're like, they don't understand why we like something that's for children. And that can, that's weird. Like, why do you like something for kids? And so not to defend what we do, but I do want to say I feel like your hobby isn't you don't love your hobby. You love how your hobby makes you feel. And so if you think about Taylor Swift fans or NFL fans or people who are super into knitting, like, they don't necessarily love that specific thing. They love that it makes them feel relaxed or that Taylor Swift gets them and it's relatable or, you know, the, the NFL makes them feel like they're in. They're part of a community of other people who love the same thing. They love. That's, I think, the ticket to understanding hobbyists and people who absolutely, you know, put all this time and money into this thing that isn't like their career. And, and, and that's kind of what you have to get your head around is, is that it's the same as every other hobby. We're spending just as much money as other people are on their hobbies. But people don't like it because it's.

For children, which, like you said, it's not. But I like how the book and you, I think, obviously, very deliberately, the term Disney adult may have started as a dig, but you and the book really are doing a lot to sort of champion the cause of reframing it as something that's very powerful and very positive and I think worth understanding. Because I think, you know, so many people are so hard on Disney adults. I sort of thought about it in this way, and maybe that that's how it's viewed. You know, there's the Disney adults in whatever sort of bucket of fandom and that Venn diagram might look like of the overlapping of fandoms, but there's, you know, the outsiders, right, that are getting it wrong because they just don't understand who we are and what we do. And I sort, I hate to sort of talk about us like we're some sort of weird cult, but I think, you know, it's this idea of reclaiming and redefining and sort of helping us understand and other people understand what it really means to be a Disney adult.

Yeah. Oh, totally. And I, I think what we're going to find as we continue to move as a, as a, as a culture online, you're going to be able to find your tribe or your people online much more easily than you're going to find them in your village. Right. And I think we're going to fracture into these little subcultures that, that just live online. Like, there are people that, that I know better than. I, I don't know any of my neighbors around here, but I know a lot of folks who live in other states and other countries, because I talk to them every day online, and I think that's going to continue to be a thing. So I think that, to me, that's incredibly interesting to watch how we, as, you know, we as communities are moving online, becoming not very much a part of our local neighborhoods anymore, but becoming part of our neighborhoods on. On the Internet. It's. It's fascinating to me to follow that, but I do think the Disney adults are. The one thing I want people to understand is it's just a me. It's as big a community as NFL fans, probably even bigger. And in the same way that you might love a certain team, you know, Lou, unfortunately, is a Giants fan, but you might love a certain team, but you still love the whole concept of the. So Disney adults are the same way I love the parks. I'm a parks adult. There are people who are movie adults, but we're all Disney adults. And so I think people are just gonna have to figure out that these communities, these subcultures, are very, very similar. And I also, I mean, something else I do in the book is I liken it to communities haven't changed over the history of time. Church communities are the same. And there's these hierarchies and there's these rules and these mores and these taboos that are part of these cultures too, which, again, is fascinating to look at. Disney adults know what equals status in the Disney adult community, which is fascinating. And you know what you have to get or attain in order to get that status or have people admire where you are in the Disney adult community. It's amazing. I'm a huge student of humanity and I love just watching all of that.

I'm the same because I love it and almost sort of compare and liken it to. Look, I as an entrepreneur, as a creator, and I think, just in general, I think it's so important to put yourself in the right room to write, to be in the place where other people are. So I love attending conferences, both as a speaker and as an attendee. And I think from the Disney side, the recent destination D23 here in Orlando, I really, as much as I was there to sort of take it in and enjoy it as a Disney enthusiast, I wanted to look at it from this lens as well, because I think this was a microcosm of what the Disney community as a whole is, because it is not. And you talk about this in the book, it's not a one size fits all, because for some people, it is about the nostalgia and the sentiment and holding on to those, the joys that we had in childhood. And that joy could be a Goofy movie, it could be Mary Poppins, depending on where you are. But I also think it's that sense of escapism, whether again, it's the movies or the parks as this refuge from daily life. It's that sense of belonging and that sense of community. And I also think too, it starts to become part of your identity to allow you to be creative, to have self expression. Whether you're a disneybounder or a cosplayer or a creator, a tattoo person, or your home is just littered with sorcerer Mickeys. It starts to become how you see yourself and how not, not just you present yourselves to the world. But I think taking more comfort in the fact that I can feel free to go out and express myself this way because I know now that I am not alone, right?

And I think that's one of the, one of the biggest benefits of. I think social media has heard a lot of stuff, but I think that social media has absolutely benefited many, many, many of us as Disney adults because we've been able to find the people we with that we maybe wouldn't be able to find in our, in, in our physical town where we live. You know, I think that I have talked to Disney adults who have said this community saved my life, literally saved my life, because people felt so ostracized and so different from the, the people around them in their actual physical town. And to find a community where they belonged, where people underst, where people gave them the space they needed to be themselves, I think is a massive benefit. And regardless of the negativity that maybe needs to be endured online or needs to be endured from your friends and family about your hobby, you can still find the people that understand you and that are passionate with you about this thing online. And I think that's a massive benefit. And I do believe that it has saved a lot of people's lives to find this particular community, without a doubt.

And I'm sure you and I have both received an email or had a conversation with somebody who would say, because of you, because of what you do, because of this community, you have literally and figuratively saved me. And again, a very wide spectrum of ways. But you know, like I said for years, even not speaking about Disney and adults, I say sort of half jokingly, adults ruin everything, right? Look, if you're a kid who likes collecting Pokemon cards, you know exactly what I'm talking about, right? If you are a kid who's trying to get your hands on a Lubu for whatever reason. You know exactly what I'm talking about. And you, you talk about sometimes the, the really difficult thing about being a Disney adult is other Disney adults because there are these. You, you referenced it before. These are these sort of like weird hierarchies and judgment inside the community. Talk about that dynamic a little bit, right? I don't mean sort of the dark side of Disney, but in terms of maybe how we as Disney fans can support one another better.

Yeah, I mean, just the dark side of humanity in general. Right. And that's, that's something that I found studying this, this community is, is humans are humans no matter where we, where we end up, you know, and this. And the same sort of, sort of base driving factors of, you know, survival, success, you know, those exist in every community, including this one. But as I was interviewing people because one of the things I wanted to do for this book was interview a bunch of Disney adults so that people could really get an understanding of how different we all are and the different corners of this particular subculture. And so one of my standard questions as I was doing interviews was, you know, do you get a lot of, of negative response from your friends, your family, whatever? And I kept. That was one of the cornerstones of my book. And one of my, one of the things I kept hearing over and over again was, yeah, a little bit, but what really stinks about being a Disney adult is other Disney adults. And I was like, wait a minute, what? Did I hear that right? And I ended up having to completely change how I was going to write the book in that particular context, because I was going to talk a lot about how much negativity people get from, from outside. And the truth was that they were battling more with, on the inside of the community, which I thought was absolutely fascinating. Like, and that's. I, But I could totally see it though, as a, as a member of a community, you don't really care about what's going on outside. That doesn't matter to you. The people that matter to you are the other people that are that, that are in, in your group. You know, it's kind of like when you're in middle school, right? Like if you're, you know, maybe you're on the football team and you're not a band kid, you don't care what the band kids say. I'm on the football team and I care what the football kids kids say. Right. So anyway, I, so I, so I dug into that a little bit. And I got a lot of, of interesting insights that people are like, yeah, I really hate when, when other Disney adults look down on me because I don't have an annual pass or they pity me because I haven't ridden the newest ride or you know, whatever. I, I haven't done this thing that you have to. I don't have 75 lounge fly bags, whatever. And the other thing they talked about was, honestly, I heard from a lot of Disney adults how much they dislike the concept of the reselling going and buying all of the limited edition merchandise and reselling it online for higher prices. And so that really just spurred me to think about what is it about our community that is making people feel bad or negative or ostracized in, in the same community? Because it's getting that big. It's getting big enough that, that that's happening. So I thought that was really interesting as well, that, that people felt like they had to, you know, attain a certain. And I think Disney's noticed that. Right? Disney knows that if they put a specific food item or merchandise item out there, that, that this community is gonna, is going to esteem the people who get access to that and that's suddenly going to give you status. And so Disney knows, okay, we're gonna put this limited edition piece of merchandise over here in this part of the park that nobody goes to, so we can get bodies over there and they know that we'll just go like sheep over there and buy that thing, you know, so it's, it's, it's fascinating.

Yeah. Even just, you know, merchandise is a great example. I never realized, honestly, AJ until recently when I would just see on social media, I didn't realize that like Tuesdays for the pin community are a big deal. And if you don't believe me, look at the lines in varying locations throughout the parks or Disney Springs of people lined up like walking at a very fast pace, borderline running to get to be first in the line to get that new pin, that limited edition release. You put the word limited or exclusive in front of something and Disney fans brains fall out of their heads.

They do. It's absolutely. And, and it is because it is status, because it doesn't. I can't. I mean, I like when I get something cool that I really wanted, but it's more about letting other people know I have this cool thing that I really wanted. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's, it's amazing to me. So again, it goes back to the anthropology of all of it just that. That, you know, the study, the study of humanity. We are. We're not any different than we used to be. It's. It's the same. I need to get this thing that nobody else can get.

So.

Yeah, it's fascinating.

Yeah. And I think looking at it as you do, and I love the fact that you sort of take a micro and macro looks at this, but from a broader sort of cultural significance perspective, you talk about it within sort of this greater sort of kidalt trend. And I think we're starting to see. I think we've been seeing it for a while. There has been this focus on attention to. And fortunately being able to have this need satiated in a variety of reasons. Sentiment, nostalgia. Right. And this generation especially is so strongly holding on to not just Disney, but things from their childhood, and so much so that we're spending the money, clearly, you know, tens of thousand dollars on repeated trips and cruises and pins and. And Lorcana cards and, you know, lug bags. What do you think this says about, again, from a much, much broader, like, cultural perspective, what do you think this says about what people are looking for in today's world? Because I think this is. I think this is very much indicative of something greater.

We could have a whole other podcast about this. Like, I guess what my brain goes to immediately is that this is one of the first kind of. I think probably the baby boomers were the first generation that was able to look back nostalgically at their childhood and kind of want to recreate that. This might also be. And that, you know, the millennial generation might also be one of the first generations where the world is. Is not necessarily getting better as they get older. And so they're sort of looking. Wanting to recapture this perfection or this safety or this predictability of their childhood. And that's sort of what is driving the. Let me be very excited about the Lizzie McGuire reboot kind of thing. It's just like back when I cared about that, that was when my life made sense. And so I want my life to make sense again. So let me just. Let me just go back there. And like I said, statistically, this generation is not having. Is not having as many children. And I think that that will continue to be a factor in. If you. If you don't have kids and you're not sort of bringing up their childhoods, you are perfectly welcome to go back to your own childhood and spend your time kind of, you know, your time and your resources around that. So I think it's Partially that, you know, the world is. It feels kind of messy right now. And we're looking for predictability and we're looking for something that made us feel safe. And Disney is very, very happy to give us that.

Yeah, I think we're looking for comfort. Right. We want our own sort of version of comfort foods. And sometimes buying the shirt and wearing the shirt out, it is like an NFL fan. It's not just because you love that team, you love that character, you love that movie, but you just deep down, you're waiting for somebody to walk by and go, I get you. Like, I'm a fan too. I get.

Absolutely.

But, you know, in this weekend, as I was thinking about talking to you today, you know, look at the shelves and the walls and stuff behind me, you know, yes, it's because I do live and things like that, but these, the things that I have here are for nobody else other than for me. Because as I was looking around, I'm like, well, maybe every so often I try and, you know, house clean a little. Let me sort of minimize a little bit what I have in here. Like, but this makes me feel good. Like, this reminds me of something. I have my 1978 Battlestar Galactica, Cylon Raider and Viper there. Not because anybody is going to see it or get it, nerd, but because I see it. And I think about my dad and I think about watching that show and it's just, it's for nobody else other than me. And it just, for whatever reason, these little things make us happy.

Absolutely. I have two Aquatopia ride vehicles here that sit on my desk all the time because I have such joy and such great memories from riding this ride in Tokyo Disney. And it just makes me so happy to see these. And so if things are getting a little crazy, crazy, I just look at those and I go, ah, that was fun. You know, it's like there is, there is fun and joy in the world. And this is making me remember that. You know what I mean? So that's sort of exactly why we, we love this stuff and collect this stuff. And then I think the, the point of it reminding you of your dad. Like, to me, as I was interviewing my staff and my. And all of these Disney adults for the book, it kept going back to everybody's origin story, kept going back to family or friends or who did I share this experience with? And that, to me was very telling because it's, again, it's not necessarily about the hobby. It's about how the hobby makes you feel. It's about who the hobby makes you remember and the, the, you know, those experiences that you relive because of what, of what you love. And so for, like, for me, it's my dad 1000%. And you know that, that comes through loud and clear in the book. But I think you get to sort of look at things and remember those people that made such a big difference in your life as well.

Right? It's not about the thing, Right. There's a Daredevil comic book that's a graded Daredevil comic on, on the wall that's there. It has nothing to do with the comic book. It has nothing to do. It has to do with. I'll tell you a very quick story. I go to New York Comic Con with my son every year and you know, he knows I love Daredevil. And there's a cover of Daredevil. Who is an attorney. I am a recovering attorney who has this beautifully drawn scales of justice and Daredevil. And he knew that I wanted it and he lied and said, oh, I need to go to the bathroom. And I was like, do you want me to go with you? Mind you? He's like 17. I'm like, no, it's okay. Cause it's New York. And he's like, no, no. And what he did is he went off and he found this comic and he knew I wanted it and he bought it with his own money. I'm gonna cry. And he gave it to me, right? And so that's why. That's it. You can't see it, but there is a four foot tall, giant plush baymax sitting on the little couch in my office. Yes, I Love Big Hero 6. Yes, I love the thing. But again, I like my son. We were in Tokyo Disneysea. He knew I loved it. We share the same non threatening, huggable design. He saw me like hugging it one day while we were there. Again, I have to start picking up on what his, his tells are. He's like, dad, I need to go to the bathroom. This is right where the park closes. He runs off, he comes back, he's got this ginormous bag with the giant baymax in it, you know, that he bought with his own money to give for me. So he sits there, not as a reminder of the character or the movie or Disney or, you know, riding the baymax. Happy Friday in Tokyo Disneyland. It remind. Oh goodness, dang. Reminds me. It, it reminds me of that feeling. It reminds me of what he did for me. And that's what, like, that's what this is all about. It comes back to whatever sort of way it makes you feel. Like who cares what somebody else thinks?

Exactly. And it, and, and I think that's the other thing that people who, people that hate on any subculture, whether it's Taylor Swift fans or it's, you know, football fans, whatever, like you, you, you don't, you can't judge the thing. You don't really understand what's behind it. Right. And I, and I do think that there's, that's why some, something that I tell people in, in the. I ask people to do in the book is, is think about what you love. Think about the thing that you're spending lots of money on right now. Maybe it's fishing, maybe it's golf, maybe it's a boat. You know, there are people who are like, why would you buy a friggin boat? That doesn't make any sense. But there are people that this brings them joy, it brings them opportunities to share with friends and family. It brings them peace and comfort. And that's what you have to think about is what do you love that you're spending all your time and money on? And then just understand that's how Disney adults feel, right? That everybody's got something that they love, that they're passionate about, probably obsessive about. And that's just how we as humans, I guess. This thing that makes us feel good, the thing that gives us dopamine, that gives us joy and happiness and reminds us of our grandma, reminds us of our son or of our spouse, house, that is, is the thing that, that we're going to love and everybody's got something like that. You just have to figure out that you under. You understand other people from that perspective. Like I always say, if you don't, if you don't get somebody, if you don't like somebody, figure out what you have in common with that person and then you might understand them a little bit better. So find that thing that you love and then you made. You might understand Disney adults maybe just a little bit more.

Well, I think, to your point, A.J. i think, I think there is something that everyone can learn from this, right? Because I think that there's, there's a bit of a paradox at play, right? Disney adults are accused of refusing, like, grow up, man. Like really. But in truth, I think maintaining this, you know, Duncan Wardle talks about this all the time. As we, you know, as we become adults, creativity starts to sort of fall away. But I think maintaining that wonder in adulthood might be one of the hardest and most mature things that you can do. So do you think that Disney adults are actually modeling a much healthier form of adulthood because we embrace this idea of not necessarily growing up?

Well, something that I. Something that I do talk about in the book is that I. People accuse us of being head in the sand. People accuse us of not dealing with things, and it's just escaping to Disney and wrapping ourselves in this fantasy world. But what I will say to that is that I actually think, and there's a story in the book about, you know, my very best friend in my late 20s, my roommate, was diagnosed with breast cancer at, you know, 27, which is insane. You're not thinking about stuff like that then. And we had a trip, a super budget trip to Disney scheduled, and we ended up going to Disney. And Disney is where we processed this. And what does this mean? And what should she do? And what are next steps? I actually think that going to a place that gives you peace and comfort and joy is a place that is going to help you actually work through reality in a. In a much more positive way, you know? And I talked to several Disney adults who had similar experiences. Oh, I found out my. My dad passed away, and this is where I went to kind of process it because everything around me felt safe. And so I was able to have. I had more energy to process this thing I needed to think about. So anyway, I think that's another interesting way to look at it is people see us as, oh, we're just escaping reality and trying to run away from it. But in truth, Disney is actually a great place for us to go to feel safe and surrounded by joy and love, and a place where we can actually process reality in a much more positive way.

So I want to try and connect the dots a little between where we are now, the future and the past a little bit. Right. Because what about the future? Right. Do you think that Gen Z and Gen Alpha are going to continue to embrace this Disney fandom in adulthood the same way that Millennials and Gen Xers has? Like, what. What does the future of Disney adults look like?

I do think that this community is going to grow substantially. I think that the generations coming up are not going to necessarily see a significant division between things that are for kids and things that are for adults? I don't know why I think that, but I do think that these. These generations have grown up on Disney, have grown up on. You know, Disney keeps buying more and more and more and more and more. And so the. Everything they're surrounded by is owned by Disney and they're going into Fortnite and they're going into all these spaces where these kids live. And so I do think that they're going to be Disney fans. And I don't think there's going to be quite as much of a stigma. I don't think with the. I think people are going to start to understand more that you can love what you love and that's okay. So I'm very intrigued to see what happens and how Disney changes. That's something else I wanted to look at in this book is does this fandom actually affect Disney's choices? And I do think it does. And so I think it's going to be fascinating to see how this younger generation affects what we end up experiencing in the parks and the movies and things like that. It's going to be cool to watch. I'm excited to watch it.

Yeah. And if you don't believe that the line between adults and kids has been blurred, just look at the Bluey fans. Because there's more like. But I'm happy you brought up Disney because that's what I mean about sort of connecting the dots in terms of Disney's role and strategy. Because Disney has, since the very beginning, they've catered to adults, like from fine jewelry and watches in the 30s to retirement communities like, you know, very adult, adult driven communities and experiences and tours and trips. Like, how intentional do you think is in terms of looking at Disney and sort of helping to cultivate this idea of Disney adults as lifelong fans?

Oh, very intentional and I think it always has been. I just think now it's becoming extremely obvious. Right. And some of the folks that we interviewed, one quote that I thought was, well, we actually asked people, how long do you think you'll be a Disney fan? And it was like, I'll be a Disney fan till I die. And I think that Disney is like, great, let's figure out how to make money from you until then. Then let's do that. And they absolutely are.

I mean, look, which we very willingly do. We line up and take days off to give Disney our money because again, we know what the return on the investment is is gonna be for us.

We do. We absolutely do. Like Disney is. It fascinates me. Again, I say fascinating a lot because this community really is that Disney is you. I will sit in an online waiting room for 11 hours on multiple devices in order to give Disney thousands of dollars. It's like, let me wait. Let me destroy my whole day just to sit and watch this little man walk across a little.

I hate the little green man.

I hate the little man.

Can I pay you more? To give you more is really what I'm trying to.

And then the thing that boggles my mind is that it'll kick me off the waiting room and I'll get back on, I get back on the waiting room, like what is wrong with me? But it's true. I know. I think Disney will absolutely continue to realize that they're in that they have a lot of adults who are dedicated to what they do. I mean, you look at Disney Vacation, Club Golden Oak, if you really start digging to see all the ways that Disney is very happy to take the money of grownups without children or grownups that are Disney adults, you see it more and more and more. So yep, I think that'll become a much broader. There'll be many more opportunities for us to give Disney money as we get older.

Yeah. And look this, you know, from a marketing perspective, it always used to be, you know, get the children interested in something and then the adults will come and spend the money.

Yeah.

Breakfast cereals, Disney parks, whatever it might be. But now I think Disney is in an interesting place because they've got to start to very intentionally think about balancing the children and adults, adult super fans. Right. So, you know, because there are so do you think all of these adult oriented offerings, upscale dining, guad to after hours events, do you think, how do you think that plays in, in terms of enhancing the experience for adult or are you starting to, you know, risk, you know, because now you're doing things that are, are not going to be, you know, for, for actual kid kids, not just Disney adult kids as well.

I, I mean I think Disney does see the writing on the wall that, that they have a huge community of adults that don't have children that are, are very happy to continue along with their Disney fandom. And so they are going to have to. And those people aren't necessarily, they may be looking for nostalgia, but they're not necessarily excited to just ride Peter Pan over and over and over again. You know, they want other things. And so I think Disney is recognizing, okay, we've got to create, you know, these, these other spaces and opportunities. I mean, Villains Land is very interesting to me. I don't know that that would have ever been a thing that would have happened in original Disneyland, you know, because I think that is going to be not obviously not adults only, but maybe a little more adult oriented or older child, you know, older kid oriented and I, and I think that, you know, the fact that Disney keeps building these deluxe resorts, right. I mean, we haven't seen a value or a moderate built in years. You know, it's all higher end, it's all, you know, come and spend your money on this, on this luxury experience. So I think that that's interesting too, that they're, they're clearly catering to people that have excess dollars to spend and they want this to be a luxury and an adult oriented experience. I think it's, it's going to be real cool to see how these offerings really change. And I, and I, I, I don't believe this yet. But I feel like instead of we've got to get the kids so that the adults will come, Disney is absolutely shifting at least to 50, 50 of enticing the adults first and foremost.

Yeah, you're gonna go to Disney World whether you like it or not. Kids pretty much.

I mean, and that's, you know, that's what's so funny is I was, I was, I had a book signing this past week and I, and there was a family there. And it's, it's all the adults that are coming, obviously. It's, it's the kids, the kids aren't coming to see me or get a book signed and it's the adults that are dragging their kids along and, and they're, and I'm like, do you really, do you like going to Disney with mom? That's all right. You know what I mean? They're like, well, I guess I have to go because this is what we're doing for spring break. So I do think that it may be shifting to that a little bit.

You also talk about, and I think this is fascinating, especially from where we come from, about how, you know, we're talking about the relationship of Disney and fans and you talk about how fans have become. And I don't love this word contextually because I think it's a gift word, not one you call yourself. But I digress about how fans have become not only influencers, but really almost unofficial ambassadors for Disney. How do you look at that relationship between Disney and fan creators today in the context of Disney adults?

Yeah, this was a very interesting part of the book that I wanted to include because I think this is a very opaque relationship and a lot of people want to understand how it works. And so I tried to dig into this in the book a little bit to show at least what, how I understand that it works, because I think it is evolving. I think the influence subculture or the, the influencer culture, I should say it's not a subculture is, is growing. I think there's a lot, I think at this point, a lot. I would, I wouldn't say the majority of, but probably 50 of Disney fans are influencers as well. You know, that's a, that's a part of what they're doing is, is showing what they're doing online. Right? And, and so watching Disney grow from, you know, literally suing people who talked about them online to this being a huge part of their marketing, you know, this, this kind of user generated content being a huge part of their, of their marketing strategy is, is very interesting to look at. And we, you know, we've been with Disney, we've, we've been around Disney to watch that whole evolution from okay, Disney's gonna actually, actually start a parks blog and start the mom's panel and they want to actually interact with fans in a way that they never had before. And then moving on to, okay, well what do we do with all these people who are talking about us online? How do we control that messaging, you know, and figuring out, okay, how we're actually going to bring, you know, these social media people to our media events that historically had only been mainstream media like magazines and newspapers and radio. And so now we're going to bring these people who are creators and influencers and just looking, just, just watching them evolve through that has been interesting. And watching us evolve through that has been interesting. We've all been on this ride together and figuring out how does this, how's this going to work? And I think it is still very, very much evolving as, as you're seeing the influencer culture everywhere evolving. You know, it's not, I say in the book, it's not, it's not anymore. Like you watch the Pepsi commercial where Cindy Crawford drinks some of the Pepsi can and obviously she really likes Pepsi. Like we all know she got paid. She doesn't, she probably doesn't even drink Pepsi. But in terms of now you're watching these influencers and creators and you're not really sure who to trust anymore. Like, are they just saying this because they want to go back to Disney for free or do they, are they really trying to help me? And so now we as consumers have to figure out what's, where are the lies and where are the truths here? So again, that's another thing that is, is very interesting to keep an eye on is how is Disney going to continue to evolve with the influencer culture? Because it's got to be really hard for them to decide. Yes, this is someone that it makes sense for us to spend our time and money on because of course they want them to say nice things about them, but they can't require that. And so you've got to, you know, you've got to pick and choose carefully. And then of course the, the influencer themselves is kind of thinking, well, I'm never going to get invited back to Disney if I'm not nice about them. And so, you know, if I don't like the food or if I don't like the hotel or if I don't like this experience, am I okay to say that? You know, and so we're all just sort of figuring out what, what that's, you know, there's no regulations. It's still the wild west.

Well, I think it comes again. This is a whole other conversation we could have another day, but it really comes to the trust. I about talk, but I think the role in the relationship business, AJ no matter what business that you are in, and I have a relationship with you, but I have a relationship with you, the one person who is listening. And that relationship is built on trust. And that trust is a, is very much a two way street. And I think that is what Disney is looking to invest in, in the creators, the influencers, whatever you want to call them.

Yep.

But almost as an extension of that, you know, I do a lot of speaking to corporations about how they could sort of leverage lessons from Disney and the Disney parks and the relationships that Disney Parks has with their biggest super fans and Disney adults. And I think that there is no other company, no other brand on planet earth that has the amount of brand loyalty that Disney does. Right. So if Disney adults are the most loyal customers that any brand can dream of, what kind of lessons do you think other industries, other businesses could learn from Disney about how to cultivate that same type of not fleeting, but more importantly that lifelong devotion that we have?

This is the million dollar question. And, and, and this is something I wanted to figure out. This is like my whole chapter two is like, how do you manipulate me like this Disney, how do you make me like this? That I will sit in that online waiting room for 11 hours?

No, they make us look love it, right. Not just like it, they make us love it. And that I think that's the barometer. Like once you pass that line from like to love, that's when everything changes.

And that's what I think that, so that's, I think the, honestly the message to other Companies who are trying to create a loyal fandom like this is to make sure that your fans create their own subculture around it. Right. That they belong to, that they feel defines them. I. So I'm a big romance novel reader. I know you're surprised.

I mean, really, who isn't?

Who isn't? But there was. There is this. There's this romance writer who has asked. She writes about a little small town, right? And everybody knows that little small town that she writes about. All of her readers know that little small town. And so quiet village.

Every day is like the. Sorry, I see. I'm a dolt. I just did it.

Oh, Lou. And we. And so what she. What she created, she reached out to her readers and said, hey, we're going to create a cheerleading squad for this town. And you can be a member of the cheerleading squad. And basically what you have to do for the cheerleading squad is tell other people about the little town. And then you get status as being part of the cheerleading squad and this fandom. And you are absolutely proselytizing to all of your friends about this particular writer's work. And I think that is probably one of the keys is. Is create. Make sure that your fans create a living and breathing community of their own that they are trying to get status in, and then they're trying. That they've created a hierarchy in and that they feel safe within. And then you're. And then you're home free. Right? Like, there you go. And I. I mean, I don't know that there's a Costco adult, you know, Like, I don't know that that exists. But the. But Disney has absolutely allowed this community to grow, and. And. And it has a life of its own, which I think is problematic for Disney sometimes. But I think that's where the loyalty stems from, is that it's not. Not necessarily about Disney. It's about the community we're a part of because of it.

Yeah. And that's. And that's the important word. And I say this all the time, AJ that unfortunately, sometimes communities become a marketing buzzword, and it shouldn't be. But from a Disney perspective, going way back, there was the Mickey Mouse Club, right? There was a sort of club you can join, and then it sort of faded away. It just came out the of. But then what happened was we as creators in the late 90s, very early 2000s, started to create our communities of our own, and there were all these sort of micro communities popping up. And I think Dizzy looked at that and says, there is a desire for this as well. And just again, I remember. Do you remember the whole like, what is 23?

Yes.

Like teasing. And then Disney's like, they're launching their community. I'm like, that's brilliant. And now they've embraced it. And look at. @d23 Expo. Look at Desolation D. Look at the fan events. They're bringing people together under their own umbrella while still not excluding those of us who have created our own sort of micro communities on our own.

Right. I think they finally real. I think back in the day they didn't realize that that was actually beneficial to them and now they have. And so they're willing to let us exist and continue to. To basically free, freely advertise for them, which I'm grateful for. But yeah, no, I think that that's, that's probably the M.O. if I, if I'm, you know, building. If I'm building a company is to make sure that my, my fans, my, you know, the people that want the product that I'm creating also care about each other and continue to, you know, I guess, want to spend time together. Because that's just, you know, you just again, it's all about psychology. It's all about humanity and what, what we're all looking for, which is to be a part of a. A safe space and a community of other people who, who are like us, you know. So, yeah, I think that's probably key.

And I think that. I think you're right. I think community and trust and understanding and belonging, acceptance are. Are so very important and that trust has to be given before it can be received. And I think you do that.

Yes.

Yeah, you do that in the book because. And I want to bring it back a little bit to you because I very much appreciated that you shared your own perspectives and your own lived experiences. Right. You talked about how Disney was this and you were very transparent. And I appreciate that because how it was this sort of of emotional refuge and escape for you and a coping mechanism sometimes, which I think it is for a lot, especially those of us who live here. Like, I just need to go. I just need a little like, infusion of Disney. I just need to go there. And he also talked about, you know, he talked about like, going into credit card debt. Right. Because of Disney. Because there is almost sort of like this, you know, drama. I've never taken drugs, but I'm imagining it's almost like this drug like feeling and having to balance this. This obsession and passion a little bit so it does not become overwhelming. Like that.

Yeah, you, if you, like, we all want to do things that make us feel good, and if we don't feel good in our regular lives, then we're going to look for something out there that does make us feel good, and we're going to keep doing that. And so that particular time in my life when I, when I would, you know, I freely admit I was addicted to and obsessed with Disney is because everything else going on in my life wasn't really what I wanted it to be. And so I was constantly just trying to get to the thing that made me happy and joyful and, and ended up having to, you know, get myself out of the situations that I was in so that I could, you know, find a lifestyle that made me happier day to day. But I, but I, you know, and I talked, I talked to some, some great therapists in the book about how do you know if you're addicted? How do you know if this is not something that is healthy and safe for you in terms of the amount of money you're spending or how you're affecting your family with your Disney obsession? You know what I mean? And so, and again, it's, It's a spectrum. It, there's no, there's no easy way to just look at a pinpoint, a specific thing that says, okay, now you're addicted or you're obsessed. No, it's, it's not. It's. Are you neglecting other things in your life because of whatever it is you're loving or obsessed with or addicted to? Are you spending money on this that you should be spending on something else? You know, so it's different for everybody. Some people are, are. It's perfectly fine for them to go to Disney 20 times a year, and they're perfectly safe and healthy and, and, and they're not neglecting anything else in their life. And it's good for some people, going once a year is too much in terms of them, you know, being able to handle everything else that's going on in their lives. So it, again, it's a spectrum. And, you know, again, what I say in the book is like, dude, there's no guilt here. There's no negativity. We have all done things that we are addicted to or obsessed. Believe me, if anybody tries to put you down because of that, you, you just tell them that they need to reexamine their life because we've all done it. And so it's just, it's just understanding, okay, what's too what, what point is too far for Me. And, and how do I pull back from it?

Yeah. And I love that you share the, the, the, not just the people, but the process and perspective of putting together a book like this. Because, because this is not just AJ's feeling about what a Disney adult is. You've talked to Disney adults, you've talked to people on your staff, you've talked to psychiatrists, you've talked to people. So you really do get such a wide variety of personal and professional inputs into putting this together so that you can try and answer all these questions.

What do I know? I don't know anything. I'm just trying to figure it out, too.

That the secret is we're all, we're all trying to figure it out.

All just trying to figure it out. And that's. And you know, what you said about, you know, and you and I have talked about this many, many times in the past too, is, is that your, your community, the, the people that follow you, Lou, and, and who trust you and, and know that you are looking out for their best interests? Like, that's the most important thing that we, we, we have built is that we have a community that believes we are not trying to swindle them or anything like that. We are just trying to, like, be honest with them and truthful and, and gain their trust and help them in the same way that they help us. And so I think that that's really what I was trying to do in this book is like, bring everybody along with me as we try to figure this out. Like, why does, why does Disney have this control over us in a way, you know, why. Why do we love it so much? And the bottom line is it's not, you know, it's not magic. It makes perfect sense from a psychological perspective and from, and, and in truth, we're very similar to a lot of other fandoms. And I think that that's going to. I think that people are going to continue to, again, fracture into these fandom subcultures. These are going to be your communities in a way that your village used to be your communities. So I think it's, it's just going to be, it's going to be interesting to watch. And I know I, blah, blah all the time, but to me, it's just so. It's so cool to have been able to dig deep into it and talk to so many people in the community and know so much more about it now. And I just wanted to bring everybody along with me on that.

I have to imagine that as you're Doing clearly extensive research and writing that there were some, like, wow and aha moments. Was there something that sticks out to you as either the most surprising that you discovered or maybe a story or a person that really maybe stuck with you as epitomizing the subculture?

I. Nothing epitomizes the subculture. Because it is. I think that's where people get Disney adults wrong. Right? Is that they think that the. The person falling to their knees and crying in front of the castle is the subculture. And it's like, no, that's part of the subculture. That girl exists. She's out there. But there are so many more. There are so many more representations of Disney adulthood across the board. And that's what I think was the most important thing to show is that there's a part of the book where I'm like, yeah, the guy doing. Doing your colonoscopy might have a Mickey balloon tattoo. You don't know. And. And we're everywhere. We are literally everywhere. And.

And the fact that you chose colonoscopy is both funny and frightening all at the same time.

Listen, man, we're of a certain age, Lou, you and me, so go get.

Your screening by the go. If you're listening, go get your screening.

If you haven't done, go get your screen. They give you really good drugs. You'll sleep through the whole thing. But I. I do. The one of the things that really surprised me was the whole, yeah, I don't care about what anybody else says about me, but I do care about what Disney adults say about me. That, to me, was. Was jarring because. And you know, Lou, you and I have been doing this for a long time. We are the original Disney adult. I mean, you are the original Disney adult because I remember sitting in my bathroom reading your Disney World trivia.

Well, I know my place in the circle of life. I know what I'm doing.

That's where you lived for me. But listen, I will tell you, whoever gets into my bathroom, that's a good book that I want to read. But I will say that we don't necessarily always see it from that perspective because, you know, we've had a lot of the experiences that other people will, you know, our bucket list experiences for them. And so we don't necessarily see that. That negativity from other Disney adults because we haven't done something or we don't have the status, you know, and so hearing that and just knowing that the negativity from external forces mattered nothing to these people. It was just. I Don't like that other Disney adults are, Are. Are judging me in this way. That was really surprising to me. And I'm like, well, that's a huge bummer, but I get it. You know, again, that's, like I said, that's junior high. That's, you know, your church community, that's any community you're a part of that matters to you. It's going to matter how they think of you. And so that, that made perfect sense. So I, I, again, I shifted how I was, how I was researching based on that.

I have, like, hundreds of questions just dancing around in my head. But I also want to be respectful of your time because we could. I think this is such a fascinating topic that the more we all talk about it together, the more understanding we have. Not just about who other people are, but I think who we are. But again, I appreciate how much of AJ Is in this book. Not just sort of this, you know, sociological look at Disney adults, but if you took away Disney completely from your life, the parks, the films, the memories, like, who would AJ Be? And what I mean by that is, what do you think that Disney fandom has given you that you either were looking for or you couldn't find somewhere else?

Oh, everything. It's given me everything. It's giving me purpose. It's given me a reason to get up in the morning to, you know, the fact that I can go and turn my mistakes that I make in the parks into something that's going to help. Help other people, save them money, save them time, you know, make them have a fabulous trip when they would have had a disastrous trip. I just, to me, being able to actually help and affect other people's, you know, joyful times is everything to me and has been for, like I said back in the 2000 early 2000s, when I would just read those message words, I just wanted to learn more. I wanted to learn more because I wanted to help people. I actually got banned from a message board because I was answering too many questions with linking to other sites, and I wasn't allowed to link to other sites, apparently. And so, you know, I. I got banned from a message board because I would go. I would just go through and try to help answer these questions.

It's why I started my forum, because the same thing was happening to me. And I'm like, I want people to share good things from good people with good people. Yeah.

Like, why wouldn't we do that? So it was, to me, it's everything. And I think that if. If I wasn't doing this. I would probably, I would probably be, you know, just studying mid medieval church history. I don't know, like, but it certainly wouldn't be this fun and it wouldn't be this joyful. And the bottom line for me, again, like I said, I was at a book signing this weekend and it, and everybody was like, oh, wow, you know, you're, you're, you must be so tired from talking to all these people. And I'm like, oh my gosh, no, this is, this is why I do this because I want to hear your stories and talk to you about, you know, well, which steak is the best steak at Le Cellier. And you know, like, that to me is just absolute joy. And so it's brought me so much and continues to bring me so much happiness and, and joy. So I'm so glad that I ran my credit cards up to $17,000 and you know, and was addicted to Disney because it's, it's ended in, in, in this, which has been just an absolute pleasure.

Is there a, is there an AJ before and after? Right? Because look, you've been a fan, right? You a super fan and you've been, been an authority documenting the fandom and sharing it and bringing so much joy to people with things like Disney food blog. But has writing Disney adults changed the way you personally engage with Disney or Disney fans? Like, do you still feel the same magic? Do you see it differently now? What does before and after AJ look like?

I think I just understand things a lot more than I did. And I'm much, much. I've learned so much. I've learned so much about Disney adults, about the culture and something that, you know, when I was a kid, what I wanted to, my parents brought me to Gettysburg for a spring break trip. And what fascinated me about Gettysburg was all the stories that hadn't been told. All of the people that lived through that battle and were in their houses around Gettysburg. Like I, I wanted to, to tell those stories. And so what this book has allowed me to do is really give a little bit more insight into the Disney adult subculture by telling stories about, about the people that are a part of it. So I've learned so much about everybody in here. I've learned a lot about how imagineers look at this subculture and how they see this subculture, which I think was very interesting and the evolution of it as well. Because I, I don't think we're done evolving. I think we are just starting. And so I'm excited to see what happens next. With, with this particular group of, of super fans and friends. And so many people have supported one another in this, in this subculture as well. So I, I do think this is just growing to be a very mature and passionate community that cares about each other as much as they care about dis. Disney. So before and after AJ is just. I just, I. I've. I've learned so much and I have so much more of a love for the community than I even did before, which sounds like a cop out, but it's true.

No, and that's, and that's, you know, that's the answer I was hoping for. Right? Because sometimes when something becomes work, you like, you look at it differently. Because now, like, this is my job and you've never been like that. And you know, look, there are, and in a good way, there are just like Disney fandom, there are countless books, books about Disney and Disney parks and movies, but there's nothing like this. Right? There is no sort of examination of the fandom the same way. And the response to the book is very, very well deserved. And so to sort of bring the two AJ worlds together to celebrate your book release. Disney Springs. I loved seeing this. Disney Springs. A number of restaurants in Disney Springs featured special Disney adult themed drinks and treats. So if you had to pick one Disney park snack or meal or drink that best captures this spirit of being a Disney adult, what would it be? And why.

The spirit of being a Disney adult? I. This is. I wish you'd told me you were gonna ask me this question.

I didn't think about it until right now. Now.

Okay, good. I would choose a dole whip and here's why.

Plant that flag. Go ahead.

I think that dole whip has evolved to be so many different things. You can have the float, you can have different flavors, you can get it in so many different places. You know, it used to be just. You'd get a dole whip float, Aloha aisle, the end back when Aloha aisle with Sunshine Tree Terrace. And. And that was, you know, and that was it. And now it just. That whole thing has grown so much and Dole whip, everybody knows what a dole whip is and they know where you can get them and you can get them in places without a park ticket or you can, you know, whatever. So it's sort of become indicative of Disney and that's sort of how the Disney adult community has grown as well. Like, I think that back in the day there was probably just a certain kind of Disney adult in. And now we're just the community has grown so much. We're all different. And there's lots of different flavors of Disney adults.

There is. And you know what? There's no one flavor that's better than, like, that's right. Disney has. You know, I just. I just talked about this on another interview. Like, I keep thinking, as somebody who admittedly was not the most popular kid in grammar school, high school, college, law school, whatever, it doesn't matter. Disney was always this sort of place that everyone is welcome, everybody belongs, everybody has a place with no judgment, with no nothing. And, like, I keep thinking about the song, like, God help the Outcast, but he has. And he's brought us all together in this place where no matter where your fandom lies, no matter what your Disney fandom looks or feels like to you personally, inwardly, outwardly, like, there is a place for you here. And I think that is the beauty of Disney. It is why I love this so much, and I love this place so much, and I love this book. It's Disney adults exploring and falling in love with a magical subculture. A.J. wolf, tell people where they can get the book and anything else that you want to share about. If you have any upcoming book signings, appearances, or if they could just come to your house and get it signed there.

Yeah, you definitely can. You can get the book anywhere you buy books. Amazon, Barnes Noble Books, A Million Target, all those places. If you want a signed copy, you can go to my website, DFBstore.com and order a signed copy. I've got, like hundreds of books piled up on my dining room table that I go through and I sign so you can get that. It's a great gift. If you're not a Disney adult, you can get it for your Disney adult friend. And I got a book signing in Jonesboro, Arkansas on Saturday, but I don't know if you'll. This will go out. Out by then, but looking into other book signings, because I do think that those are. Those just fill my heart with so much joy to meet the people that are reading the book and liking it and helps me with my imposter syndrome. So I want to do a lot more book signings if I. If I can. So stay tuned to our Instagram and website for that information. But, yep, that's what we got.

You know, Walt talked about, you can design and build the most magical place on earth, but it takes people to make a dream reality. I think that's very applicable to cast members. I also think it's applicable to you and me and every other Disney fan and Disney adult out there. We don't just go for the place, but we go for the people. AJ I am so happy for and proud of you and grateful to you and for you for not just what you've been doing for so many years.

What 2009 you started food quality 2009 I started, yes.

What you do with the book. It is a fascinating read. Absolutely. Pick it up and hopefully if this wasn't too painful for you, you will come back and we will. There's so much more I still want to talk to you about. Not just about Disney adults, but certainly about Disney too. That is really, that's really the thing.

That brings us every day.

You are awesome. But.

Thanks Blue. So are you.

It's time for this week's Disney Trivia Challenge where you can test your knowledge of the sights, sounds, secrets, stories and history of the Disney parks. If you think you know the answer, you can enter for a chance to win a Disney Prize package. This week's trivia question is brought to you by the Walt Disney World Swan and Dolphin Food and Wine Classic. If you love coming to Epcot for the food festivals, including the Epcot International National Food and Wine Festival in the fall and have never been over to the Walt Disney World Swan and Dolphin Food and Wine Classic, you are missing out because this is my favorite foodie event of the year. This year it's happening once again, November 15th and 16th. It's a Friday and Saturday night right in the heart of Walt Disney World. It is an amazing night of unlimited, let me say that again, unlimited amazing world class food, drinks, live music and entertainment. Entertainment from the restaurants inside the Walt Disney World Swan and Dolphin like Kimono's, Todd English's Blue Zoo, the brand new Chef Mina Bourbon Steak and much, much more. More importantly, did I mention that it's unlimited food and beverages with one ticket? Because the event is ticketed, it's more intimate and not as crowded as a typical Saturday night in Epcot. During a food and wine festival, there are wines and beers and creative cocktails from around the world. There's live music on the beautiful causeway. It's all outside. It is a great night with friends, date night, a combination of the two, or even going solo. It really is one of the highlights of my year. And if you love Disney, love food and just having a great time, you will love it too. Tickets are on sale now. You can get all the details over@swandolphin foodandwineclassic.com and I hope to see you on The Causeway this November. Now, before we get to this week's question, let's go back review last week and select our winner. So last week we were talking about destination D23, and the question was to tell me, in what year did D23 first launch? Thanks to all of you who entered, got this one correct, shared some memories and even photos of your first D23 Expo or event. But of course, D23 launched around some shrouded mystery, asking the question, are you 23? In March of 2009, CEO Bob Iger announces as the first official community for Disney fans to not only celebrate the company's heritage, but more importantly, offer fans inside access through the magazine, through collectibles and exclusive member events. It's also that same year that they announced the inaugural D23 Expo in Anaheim, which has now become the ultimate Disney fan gathering. And I think over the years, true to its name, it really has continued to evolve to a true community. Community. Anyway, I took all the correct entries, randomly selected one, and last week, you were playing for a WW Radio keychain sticker pin and a mystery prize that I brought for you from Destination D23. And last week's winner, randomly selected is Brianna Oliveira. So, Brianna, congratulations. I'll get your prize packet out to you right away. And if you played last week and didn't win, that's okay, because here's your next chance to enter in this week's Walt Disney Disney World Trivia Challenge. So let's go over to Epcot this week, just as I did earlier in the week. Actually, I went on Wednesday for our WTI Radio live broadcast. But also, as we were talking about with aj I just needed a little bit of that infusion of Disney magic. So I wanted to go to a park that I love and one of the places that I love, which is, of course, the Japan Pavilion. And I was thinking about as I was walking out at night, the evolution of the different nighttime spectaculars. So your question this week is to tell me what is the name of the very first nighttime spectacular in Epcot Center? What was the name of the very first nighttime spectacular in Epcot Center? Now, you're going to have a little bit or a lot of bit of extra time to answer this one. Not because it's super challenging and you have to do a lot of research, but starting this weekend, I'm going to be traveling to Paris, France, not Texas, for our WW Radio Group Adventures by Disney River Cruise on the Scent. Then we're also going to kick it off before with a couple of days in Paris and then finish it off after the cruise with a few days in Disneyland Paris. I will of course be sharing all of my experiences with you online, primarily on Instagram. So follow me and turn on notifications at lumangelo. And then I'm going right from France to New England where I'm going to be speaking at a conference. So you're going to have until Sunday. All this to say you're going to have until Sunday, October 5th at 11:59 from Eastern to go to WWradio.com click on this week's podcast. Use the form there. And this week you're not just going to play for the keychain, the stickers, the pin and a little WWE Radio prize package. But while I'm in Disneyland Paris, I will buy something specifically for a contest prize. This maybe again the week after as well. So good luck. I don't know how to say that in French. And have fun. That is going to do it for this week's show. Thank you again so very much for listening and being part of the WW Radio family. I am so grateful for you. I hope you found some magic in this week's show and if you enjoyed it, please help spread the word, share the show and tell a friend if you share it on social tag me, I am and I will not only follow you back, but make sure I reshare it as well. Once again, thank you so much for sharing your time time with me. I know that it is the most valuable thing that you have and I do not take that for granted. Always remember, lead with kindness and by example and choose the good. I love and appreciate you. So until next time, see you.

Well, it sounds pretty good.

In fact, that's just the right spirit.