[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to how to be human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: On this episode, Anna and I discuss process. Take a seat clear mind and let's chat.

Hello. I was still taking a guzzle of my chair.

[00:00:26] Anna Toonk: Um, beautiful. But windy day.

[00:00:30] Nina Endrst: I know I'm still, it's funny. I feel sometimes when I text Nina, it's like a kid at camp. I was like, I like last week I was like, I was outside. Oh date, but it's like as a city person that is sort of rare, whereas it's chilly Willy today.

So I'm back inside. I'm an indoor cat again today, but it made me laugh. I was also to Friday. I was like, I'm so extra tie tie from being outside. I was like in my, like a baby, like fresh air wears me out. It does. And then I did sleep amazingly, like we had jotted about, but it feels we've had this spring.

Equinox, we had a full moon. It feels like spring is sorta slowly but surely moving in. Do you, do you feel that way? Do you feel like spring is coming? Yes.

[00:01:26] Anna Toonk: And as it's airy season officially,

[00:01:28] Nina Endrst: I am true. More importantly, most importantly, most

[00:01:32] Anna Toonk: importantly, I'm thrilled not to be crying, you know, watching something that.

Probably shouldn't be crying about

[00:01:39] Nina Endrst: like, I mean

[00:01:42] Anna Toonk: like, okay. I think everybody knows who listens to this by now, or maybe not that I watch reality television. I took a brief hiatus for a couple of years and was like, no, I can't. And now I'm back with a

[00:01:55] Nina Endrst: vengeance. You tell the people why. Or I think one of the funniest things about Nina is she's pretty disciplined about not gossiping.

She truly doesn't gossip. I think you occasionally, well, we'll get into that, but you don't gossip. Um, for the most part, and yet the way she gets her fix does gossip is via reality television, which I think is brilliant. They're like what a solve. Yep,

[00:02:21] Anna Toonk: exactly. Nobody gets her.

[00:02:23] Nina Endrst: Yeah, they've literally signed up for it.

You discussed them? They're like ease. Yes. So

[00:02:32] Anna Toonk: what's relevant or my favorite is siesta key.

[00:02:39] Nina Endrst: Okay.

[00:02:40] Anna Toonk: Now older teenagers now they're in, in adulthood and they live in siesta key, Florida, Florida is like probably my worst nightmare for many reasons. One of my worst nightmares and. I was crying the other day, watching an episode of siesta key. And I was like, you fucking Pisces season, like get out of my way.

I can't

[00:03:02] Nina Endrst: water moon. So like you're also cursed as someone with a water sun and a water moon. I'm like, uh, yes. You know, like, but I'm just,

[00:03:12] Anna Toonk: that's my feelings. Yeah. I'm feeling fire am definitely feeling. The switch, you know, I, there's a bag that we have by our door of food that we take to a community fridge here.

Oh, excuse me. If you can hear my dog barking in the background, but there is like, uh, wraps that we ordered for the community fridge. And they've been sitting by. DOR for like days. And I, this morning I was like, must be air season. Cause I was like, I'm throwing this fucking bag away. It's been here for a fucking week.

I'm throwing it away. And when it was like, okay,

what is the purpose?

[00:03:56] Nina Endrst: I, I feel like this morning, I like on Mondays generally to sort of. My email clean up my inbox. And I feel like every newsletter was about like impatience and, and all this stuff. And I was like, oh yes. Every season. Like whether or not you, like, think that's what you're talking about, you are, you know, it was just like really funny to me, like, How sometimes, like my mom is someone who doesn't believe in astrology and is like, Nope.

And I'm like, well, That's why every time you like have a feeling, you Mount down you Aquarius, you know? Cause she's like, no, no, no. I'm just going to live in my head. I'm going to intellectualize it all. You know, it's just like very funny, but it does make me laugh sometimes. And she'll be like, you know, it'll be around like a full moon or something like that.

And she'll just be like, I don't know what's wrong. I just, so like, I was laughing with you that she had even been like teary about some stuff lately. And I was like, Pisces season comes for us all, you know, like. That's right. We

[00:05:04] Anna Toonk: literally had a pipe

[00:05:05] Nina Endrst: burst. Yeah. Oh, I had my bathroom flood. I mean, it's just like no jail.

Yeah, no chill, always with the water.

[00:05:15] Anna Toonk: But what we're talking about today is so perfect for. The areas

[00:05:22] Nina Endrst: it is it, is it tos? Um, we are talking about process today or to our neighbors, to the north process, but it is. Yes want to be inclusive, but also my friend almond, who taught me a lot about process is Canadian and says process.

And so now as a joke, like in, or when something like, you know, comes back to that, I'll be like, oh, I even will spell it out with a long, uh, oh, prose. And I do mute my mind quickly cause I sneezed and I managed to pull it off. But did I tell you all making it a half victory? Yes. More. I just didn't want you to think I had just gone away.

Okay. Process known a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve. A particular end to law, a summons or writ requiring a person to appear in court verb, perform a series of mechanical or chemical operations on something in order to change or preserve it, the various stages in processing the wool.

[00:06:37] Anna Toonk: We're going to talk about that for an hour.

[00:06:41] Nina Endrst: We're going to, you know what surprise this is kind of this. This is no Wolf can have

[00:06:48] Anna Toonk: pools and sheep and

[00:06:50] Nina Endrst: whatever else you can talk about. I am such a pro like a process oriented person, but it has also been like the greatest source of tension in my life. And that I've always, I was thinking about it this morning, actually in the shower and was like, Why is that, you know, like, wha why is it that, like, I actually really enjoy process.

I, I really believe in process. I think I've gotten a lot more out of process than like in results sometimes, blah, blah, blah. But why do I resist it so much? Sometimes? You know, I was like, what's that about? And I realized that a big thing. I mean, and this is kind of like a duck. It's not really a heartache, but when I know I'm in process, I feel safe and I'm fine, but it's.

I often want to know that that's what's up, you know, and I think a lot of the things I've done there has been this process of like, you know, When I went to college, you know, going to art school, it's like, this is, this is the process. Like, this is the way you're going to be stepped through this. You know?

Like, I feel a lot of freedom sometimes in that of like the pressure's a bit off, you don't have to sort of worry. It's like, you're, you're in it. You know, like if you know you're in it, then, like, I think it changes the expectations. It changes the PR like the, the pressures you put on yourself, you know, but.

I think sometimes if I, I can't tell if I'm like, am I in Brazos? Am I not in process? Am I just sort of like avoiding some am? I , you know, like then sometimes I think I like kind of stall out, but then when things were not clear or maybe process, was it being defined by someone else or imposed upon me? I really, really struggled.

And as an adult had to learn to. Really surrendered to that and the discomfort to, I think, define my own processes about stuff and really just honor that and be like, oh, it's not just about like school or this or that. It's about defining your own process.

[00:08:59] Anna Toonk: Yeah, I think we've learned a lot about that together as well, because there's no rule book to anything we're doing or no real.

It's not that there aren't real markers, right. When you finish a podcast, your episode you're done, but this whole thing is in process. Right. And that's really what I think we both get frustrated, you know, about similar things sometimes as far as the process, but we also then. Bounce back and appreciate it at the same time.

It's, it's a tricky relationship with it, for sure. I feel like I didn't really understand it. I mean, what's what big process do you go through? Like puberty? You know, I, I don't know what was processed when we were kids. I guess doing reports and things like that, or, but it didn't really.

[00:09:52] Nina Endrst: Hmm. Hmm. I mean, I think for me, cause weight was always being talked about.

So like, I think I was always a bit in like a weight loss process or like body shifting process, you know what I mean? Like I, cause I think something for me that was interesting about. Looking up what the definition was is that to achieve a particular end, you know? So I think if you think about it, like in that regard, uh, lots of things were a process of like figuring out, you know, how to get that first boyfriend, like, or how to get like, that was a process, you know, like.

I mean, I mean, I think the easy ones, all of it, I think all of it is a bit of a process of like, you're, you're literally, it's like high school is like this like tiny little microcosm of like, you know, my mom always says life is high school with money, which I think is like both comforting and terribly depressing, but it is this little mini version of that.

I think for me, like in television, it was so. Emphasized that if you did stop. For like to see your S your name in the credits you were going to always be disappointed. Like if you did stuff to like, put it on your real or brag about it at family holidays or whatever, like you were going to be disappointed.

That you had to enjoy the process. And I think that's when I really learned, like, for anything that I'm interested in or any goal or anything like how to enjoy the process. Cause that's what you're going to be in for much longer than anything else.

[00:11:36] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I guess it's not so much that I wasn't always in process or we are always in process in some way, but I wasn't aware of it as much.

And now I'm very aware of it now. I think I'm hyper aware of it. Oh, it's just, this is the process and God would be in the process and process, process process. And it's just, I don't know when that switch happened, where it became such a focus. Like, I feel like it's one of those things. I think about a lot.

Where am I in the process? Not necessarily. How long am I going to. You know, how long is it going to be till I get to the end, but it's taught me a lot about patience, which I don't have very much of. I'm very short on patients in general.

[00:12:22] Nina Endrst: Well, yeah, I mean, you trend too into immediacy and processing immediacy in immediacy are at odds.

Yeah. Big time. Yeah. You're like my process is, I said, I wanted my processes,

[00:12:39] Anna Toonk: my processes, the, you know, the Kodak, like whatever will help. Oh my God, what are they called? How my Polaroids, that's my process. Those even take too long. Sometimes for me, I'm like shake, shake, shake, shake, shake. But it's how do you find what's the most helpful thing?

Being, you know, to know when you're in process, in the process of something. I think the most healing thing that I've found is it's not, like you said about TV. It's not really ever about the destination. And even if you think it is the end, it always shifts into something else. So to focus on. That just is kind of a dead end.

I've found

[00:13:34] Nina Endrst: yeah. From dictionary.com. What I liked was processed procedure. When, um, I'm sorry. The question was, how do you define a process? And I said, process procedure proceeding apply to something that goes on or takes place. A process is a series of progressive and interdependent steps by which an end is attained.

Uh, procedure usually implies a formal or set order of doing a thing and method of conducting affairs. I think a lot about it in terms of like grief and healing. And I think like for me, going into therapy, I a hundred percent went into therapy being like, I I'm going to heal the shit out of myself and be outta here, like as soon as possible, you know?

And that's not at all how it works. And that was something like, when my therapist kept sort of emphasizing to me, like you're never going to graduate. Like I'm never going to give you, you know, a certificate saying you're, you're healed and you're going to graduate, you know? And I was like, I know, but I still sort of want that, you know, like I just sorta like, it was really.

I think because like, so often we, we confuse like an end also with an achievement. And I really wanted things that I don't think can be that way. Like, I don't think that like my dad's death like really affects me, you know, like all my day to day. It is something that's a part of my life. I can't separate it out of it.

And I also can't evaluate myself as a failure if I still have to do some processing around it, like. Yeah, I reached new places. I haven't been before in regards to it. So I do have to kind of look at it and go, you know, how do I get some peace around this again? You know? And that was really, I think, illuminating for me in terms of like, I can't always be.

Like solution oriented in terms of process of like, you go to a, to B you tick it off the list, you know, and I think it helped me also start understanding personal process. And then work-wise, I can process pretty quickly and I can kind of synthesize information pretty quickly. I can kind of go okay.

Hearing what we want to do, hearing where we want to go. It's this to me seems like the steps, you know, like I can do that pretty quickly, emotionally. I'm a much slower processor. And I think because of those two things, being at odds and being so different for me, and it feels very different in my body.

It meant like, um, intellectually, it feels very different. How I evaluate it, that was confusing to me. And I used to be like, I feel this way or dah, dah, dah, dah, you know, and my therapist would be like, are you sure? Are you sure. Cause it seems like you still have a lot of feelings about this or it seems I, or did, you know?

And so finally, one day I came in and was like, I'm much slower to process than I give myself time for it. And she was like, welcome. Join us, have a seat. You know? And that was really confusing for me.

[00:16:57] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I definitely feel ya on that. I think. Jump to, I mean, it is my nature and it's definitely something that I don't push too.

I can find, or, you know, feel clear pretty quickly about how I feel a thing at work, a thing in my personal life. But emotionally, especially in relationships, what I've found is that I also end up processing way longer than I. Maybe appear to be or feel like I would years even, you know, I think about people a lot that aren't in my life anymore, or just memories will surface in all kind of ruminate on them.

And that's part of the process for me. I had this weird memory. Some guy that, you know, was not even really a significant, I mean, he was significant in some ways, but he wasn't, you know, really like my boyfriend or anything, but we had this kind of long and weird relationship. And anyway, he just popped into my mind and I was like, what are you doing here?

Like, why are you here? But I realize it's not, it's not because there's any, you know, heaviness there, but it's just kind of I'm. Leaving cycles all the time. And with that, with moving on with beginning and ending, you do kind of process things that you feel like are buried, but aren't right. Or just need kind of one last one last look.

So I've you go ahead.

[00:18:44] Nina Endrst: No, go ahead. Well, I think you're touching on something like, do you think it's harder sometimes to process things when they're not. Like good or bad when it's just sort of timing or weird or maybe at the time he didn't know what bucket to put it in or,

[00:19:00] Anna Toonk: yeah, I do also think I have a real problem processing humanity, like behavior that I don't, that I just find bath.

Right. Yes. Yeah. Wait, wait, wait, wait. I feel like I'm looking at all the angles. I'm like looking under the hood. I feel like I checked all the things like, what am I missing here?

[00:19:25] Nina Endrst: Very much related to this. And I'm still like, I mean, I laugh. I think about my dad who had had a heart attack prior to the one that took him out and he didn't have a, will had a wife and two kids and I'm like, You just walk me through it.

I'm past the anger, like in the, you know, he didn't really love us or whatever. Cause now I also better understand, like he was just an idiot, you know, like none of us think we're going to die. I do, I have to stand up

and I am like, I now I'm just like, Walk me through that. Walk me through that papaya. Tell me what your

[00:20:03] Anna Toonk: process. Yeah, I mean, I think of some of the, I had some, this, this, I think about all the time, this particular situation, I had a client a long time ago, not a long time ago, but a while ago, who was. You know a little bit, how do I say this in a kind way?

Just didn't have a lot of boundaries. So she would over identify. She would think we were friends. We were not, I held the boundary. I'm not friends with anybody.

[00:20:34] Nina Endrst: Very strict.

[00:20:36] Anna Toonk: I'm like, I'm not friends with anybody. No,

I'm

[00:20:39] Anna Toonk: very funny. I'm friends with very few people, truly friends. Like I take that very seriously.

So anyway, she. I was trying to make a false connection with another one of my clients who she ran into. And she brought up my son and told this other woman that her son was way cuter than my son. I

[00:21:02] Nina Endrst: mean, the fuck the fuck.

[00:21:04] Anna Toonk: Why would that fuck? So, so we had already had there, there was also already a lot of things that I, you know, wasn't comfortable with.

Needed to, you know, put the kabash on that. So I sent her a message and I said, listen, you know, it was really inappropriate, whether you thought it was a joke or not, I'm not comfortable with that at all. I would like to keep this professional, but you know, our time working to. Is over. And she was really defensive and I actually stopped working with her sister as well, because I knew that I couldn't separate myself.

I mean, did she do something absolutely horrific? No, but if you bring my son up and even if like we're done, it's just not, I'm never going to be able to work in like a grounded way. So her sister was furious and I was like, you have the right to your feelings, but you. That I wouldn't work with her either.

And I'm like, but listen, I'm doing you a favor. Like I wouldn't, I'm not showing up with you when I have this thing with your sister. It's just not, it's not going to work. You guys live together. You're very close. You're sisters. It's not appropriate. I need to end it.

[00:22:21] Nina Endrst: I'm curious. Did you feel weird already having the boundary issues?

Did you feel weird about working with the sister as it was? No. Okay. Because I work

[00:22:30] Anna Toonk: with a lot of sisters actually, and yeah. I worked with a lot of

[00:22:34] Nina Endrst: families as

[00:22:35] Anna Toonk: well, and I've worked with like couples, not for a long time, but like one and then the other. So, no, I felt like we could really separate because I wasn't working.

I was, we were already like trailing off with the other sister when I started working more with her. So. So it wasn't like overlapping that much, but I just think about it sometimes. And I'm like, what the fuck were you thinking? Why? And, and I believe that she really wanted to blow up like anything because she had her own shit or whatever, but I just couldn't understand like, number one, how you get to that.

But. And then how you don't understand that it's really inappropriate and apologize. So I don't understand other people's process or lack thereof, you know, and I don't need to I've, I've stopped for the most part, trying to understand, you know, people's shit, but. That's what I have.

[00:23:46] Nina Endrst: I think something that's been hard for me to accept is that a lot of people don't have a process. And that's really as someone who. Thanks a lot and things, a lot about how I want to show up in the world and listen, I'm not saying those choices are always good. You know, like, I'm sure I have a couple of friends who listened to this and they're like, listen, I've seen you be a messy bitch, many times.

You're right. You have tell no one. But you just did, but I think about it a lot, you know, like I, I do think of that. That sometimes is what is bizarre to me that it's clear to me. People just like, aren't thinking, you know, that I, and I don't mean that in like a high and mighty, like people are thinking, you know, Yeah, that, but I'm also just like, what is that like, you know, like I just find that really interesting.

When do you think something that was interesting to me about TV as well? That I learned was like ways to kind of know, like when someone's processed on something, like when we were, you know, like an interview, someone or whatever, you know, And we'd be like, I think it's cool. Or I think that this can be brought up or they've said, they're cool with that or whatever, like they're processed around it.

How do you think we know when we're processed on something? That's such a good question.

[00:25:20] Anna Toonk: I love that question. I tend to think it's when there's not a lot of. Not zero emotion, but you're detached enough from it that it doesn't make you feel bodily things. Yeah, I agree. My mom was just here. I had a client say, Anna talks about her mom all the time and you never talk about anything.

Your parents I'm like, well, that's cause I'm scared too. But my mom was just

[00:25:50] Nina Endrst: here when we were in

[00:25:51] Anna Toonk: podcasts. So I take that. Yeah, I know. Right. And we had a conversation that we've had many times and it's a hard conversation. It's one that is about our relationship. And, you know, it's changed a lot and not necessarily for the better over the last couple of years.

And it's been really hard for me to process that. And I think that I've denied it. I've been angry about it. I've really, I've really iced her out. I, in a lot of ways, because it just was too painful for me too. Not, and I felt like things kept, you know, I kept being disappointed or so I just would like put that kind of icy outfit on.

And when we were talking, I realized that. I'm not processed completely about something that happened with us many years ago, five, four at this point, but I'm processed enough where I didn't feel this pit in my stomach. I didn't feel anger. I didn't feel really the resentment even. I just felt, we need to keep talking.

We need to keep trying, and the effort needs to be there on both of our parts, but I feel mostly processed. So for me, it's a, it's a body thing. It's a feeling and it's almost a clarity too, in my, like, there's not a lot of head noise, you know, it's not a lot of stories around it.

[00:27:26] Nina Endrst: Yeah. And I think that's also for me, I.

Like a way I can know I'm process as well as like, I don't care what anyone else thinks. Like, I don't care if people agree. I don't care. Like if. You know, if, if it's about someone or whatever, you know, if they're like, that's not what happened, I'm like, okay, in your opinion, you know, like I think I also get to that point where it's like, it's not debatable to me or whatever, you know, like I sort of arrive at like, it's not about.

Like figuring out what is the truth or what happened or what didn't, it's arriving at, like where you've netted out, you know, of like, this is what that experience was for me or whatever, you know? Like I feel sometimes like when I'm really claiming what my experience was or what my pain was or whatever, like that's also, when I know I'm processed, like.

Seeking permission or something. I don't know. I don't know how to quite, I just did articulate

[00:28:38] Anna Toonk: it beautifully. Uh, why do you think people have a hard time processing or being in process?

[00:28:46] Nina Endrst: Because it's uncomfortable because you feel like. You have to stick with it. You have to be with it. You have to ask yourself like, oh, why does this bother me so much?

Like being active makes us feel really empowered and good. And like we're taking charge and doing shit in processes. Like, look again, think again, you know, it's like, I totally get why we avoid it. You know? Uh, it makes so much sense to me. Like as the way human beings are, you know, like it's not clear. It's a lot about stuff that we as human beings avoid of like being self-validating and, you know, introspective and kind of sifting through all this stuff and staying the course, you know, going one step at a time and going, okay, I know that thing happened.

It hurt my feelings, or I had feelings like what were those feelings? Okay. They seem to be hurt. You know, like most of us don't want to do that. Yeah, most of us, you know, and I think a lot of us also, I think a lot of people actually want to do it more than they may be realize, but they don't know how. And that's where therapy, I think for a lot of people comes in myself included.

I think something often for me around relationships, I sometimes I'm not always gossiping. I'm I'm processing. Yeah. Sometimes like that sort of stuff. And that can be tricky for me because I think sometimes people, you know, like do tinker, just talking shit or that you do. And like, usually I'm, if I'm talking about someone or something that happened with someone I'm going kind of like, I feel all of this.

Cluttered, how do I make sense of it to then communicate with the person, you know, is usually what I'm striving to do, you know? And, and I think that that can be tricky. And I've seen also with a lot of people, when I think they're doing the same thing, they're just trying to process something and maybe, you know, do it with third-party reflection.

They then shame, spiral. And are like, I just, I just want you to, I mean, I, I do love them. I do love them. Or, or they I'm feeling, you know, I've had friends be like, tell me about a weird thing with a friend and me cutting to be like, yeah, I agree. That's weird. Like, I, you feel that it would, you want to talk to them about, you know, and then afterwards they sort of, I think have a vulnerability hangover or something like that sort of panic.

How do you feel about processing with, so I'm

[00:31:21] Anna Toonk: so happy you're asking this. First of all. I don't think you gossip. I mean, rarely do you asset. I think you've processed.

[00:31:29] Nina Endrst: Gossip about dumb shit. Cause

[00:31:31] Anna Toonk: I'll be like people like, you know, real things, you know,

[00:31:35] Nina Endrst: or I'm like, oh, look at the like, look what's up with the love is blind crew.

You know, I I've adopted your reality TV. It's true. And he gets very sweaty at

[00:31:46] Anna Toonk: any time of day or night. So

[00:31:49] Nina Endrst: I always talk about those fools. They signed up for it. We had

[00:31:52] Anna Toonk: someone over a friend over for dinner a couple of nights ago, and we were talking about. Someone she doesn't know, but I was saying how way.

And I were both saying how w you know, we really like her, but we were really uncomfortable when w well, I said this part, I said, I was really uncomfortable when I went to her house and the way she was talking to her daughter really horrified me. And I'm not a judgemental parent. Like I don't judge, I don't judge other people's parenting as much as possible, but I can't around people who speak, you know, like that to their children.

Like I

[00:32:34] Nina Endrst: just cannot, I know this story and I like to not get into a bit to me. I think that's also just like, when is it just like, it's an opinion, you know, like, Your opinion is you don't like the way she was speaking to her daughter or whatever, like versus gossip, like she did it. You're saying he didn't like it.

Like we allowed to do that. Like I think sometimes people have gotten a bit crazy about what is gossip, you know,

[00:33:05] Anna Toonk: like totally. And I had this moment where she, and that was it. Like I literally said that and that was all. And I was like, that's just really why we can't hang out because I just can't, you know, but when she left, I was like, should I text.

I know you're going to love that. Should I follow up and be like, you know, she's a great person. I'm sure blah-blah-blah maybe she was having a hard day, like, and I was like, Dina, sit out. I have a glass of wine go fucking to bed, but I had a guilt wash over me and I wasn't gossiping, but I, I definitely am.

I don't know. Where's the line, you know? I mean, I think it's really hard with women in general, the way that we've been. Organized and trained to gossip with each other as a way to form connections. We've talked about that here. I'll talk about it a million times. I'm sure. So, you know, being around women.

Of the time who are not my friends, but who, who I in or around their circle of friends or just, and they're, that's how they're connecting with each other. I've always been so baffled by it. And I just, it sounds so nasty. Right. So I just feel hypersensitive to that

[00:34:39] Nina Endrst: sometimes. That it's like, we can't win, you know, like we're saying gossip, SPAD, can't talk about other people, but then we've got all this like cancel culture and I'm like, I, it just, sometimes I find it a bit like, so, okay. So what do you propose? Like we never have thoughts about other people. We'd never have thoughts we share about other people.

You know what I mean? Like a hundred percent, like, I think it can kind of. I think people sometimes use the word gossip just to shut it down or make people feel a little self-conscious or Shamie versus it being just like, I think if that, you know, like, I think if the, if the person repeated it to the other woman or whatever you would be like, yeah, yes.

That's it made me a little uncomfortable as a mother. Like I don't, you know, like. I didn't want to bring it up with you. It's certainly not my place, but yeah, I'll own that. I said it, I don't own it.

[00:35:35] Anna Toonk: And I met in a heartbeat. The thing that I find interesting about what you're saying is that I've stopped processing a lot of that kind of stuff, or I with my friends and that feels isolating sometimes because I really want to talk about something.

You know, I have a best friend who we share. You know, mutual friends that, I mean, I'm not, we're not really that close with them anymore, but I want to tell her about some things that happened with the other one. Sometimes not really anymore. But, but then I don't want to like talk shit. Right. But yeah, so that's challenging because she is a really close friend and she knows this person and it's been a challenge for the past, like couple years.

And she's the only one that really gets it, you know? So sometimes I'm like, how do I navigate that?

[00:36:32] Nina Endrst: I had to do that recently with something. And I'll be honest. I was somewhat proud of myself where I was like, I know I'm going to have to have a difficult conversation with a friend that I have, some feelings may not go well.

And I also have some other concerns and talked a little bit to a mutual friend of like what? I was glad that I didn't just like barf at the mutual friend of what was up, you know? Because it was tempting. I wanted to, you know, like knowing that that person knows the other party, you know, like to get that sweet, sweet relief of like, can you believe this shit?

You know, like, uh, I wanted it, so I know the forbidden fruit, the forbidden fruit, but then, you know, you're, you're in the anxiety of like, am I a terrible person afterwards? So instead I was like, I want to be clear, like I want to talk to you about this because I would like your advice as well on what you think is the best way to do this.

Knowing my, my goal is this and that was really nice. We were able to talk about it together. She was really helpful. Like, Ooh, I get what you're talking about. You know, like, I understand why you're being sensitive to it. And it felt really good. And I was like, you don't like, thank you. Thank you for giving me.

Help and support, you know, and I hope it didn't feel like I was just talking shit. And she was like, not at all. Like, it felt like you were trying to figure something out, which was like really nice though, you know? And I was like, ah, Anything else. So often it is like the intention you set going to it. And, you know, coming back to the, like the original definition we started with of like, to an end, it's like my, my end was I, I want to, you know, like, I want you to adjust the situation, but I do want to protect the friendship.

Like all the. It's not the worst idea to talk to another friend because I was in this workshop about the workshop itself was like, what the fuck is happening, where you're just like I and a friend was in it and we were texting each other and we were like, what is happening? Like Laura? It was like, oh my God, it was like an SNL sketch.

It was so bad where, oh my God. Yeah. Well, I mean, honestly, they may be a scammer, I don't know. But you know, I'll tell you off pod who it was. So. One thing though, that they talked about was, was in terms of their process, was they try not to overthink because when they're overthinking, they only have the knowledge that they have, that it's only within their mind, you know?

And I was like, yeah, that's how that works. You know, like it's your brain. And then I was like, oh, like, I definitely. Cast to far and wide net. I think, I mean, I trust myself above and beyond all while as it refers to me. But I think I have some friends that I think are very like close to the vest, emotional processors and.

I don't know that it always benefits them because it does, it is just their information, you know, it is just their mind. It is just their stories. It is just, you know, that it'll be so interesting to me sometimes when they'll just like, this happens a lot with men, you know? And there'll be like, yeah, I've just been sort of thinking about this thing.

And you're like, oh, like, well, did you ever think of blah? And they're like, wow. No, I got it. You know, and you're like, and they're like, thanks for that. And you're like, I, I literally just told you, like, have you thought about drinking more water? You know, like it, wasn't exactly a hot take, but they've clearly just been so internal, you know, for so long that I think it's been helpful for me that so much of like where I've been introduced to processor, I've been sort of forced into process has often been, I think.

Collaborative, you know, or with how to do that with other people, which I think is part of why I'm like get in girls were going emotionally.

[00:41:08] Anna Toonk: So it's yeah, I think so many men are stunted, but also limited in their, in that type of way, because that's the expectation that they just don't. Do that right. Or they do it in private, but really there's not a lot of conversation about men processing anything.

[00:41:33] Nina Endrst: No. I mean, unfortunately most of that comes in terms of crime. Yeah. They're often processing via violence and, but for real that's where often that conversation

[00:41:44] Anna Toonk: a hundred percent. And then it's like, um, Timmy had a really bad day, so he shot some people. Yeah. I mean, that was an actual conversation, but I watched my husband paint or I don't watch him paint.

That's weird, but I

I'm like to that date again,

[00:42:05] Nina Endrst: what she's not mentioning is she's new.

[00:42:08] Anna Toonk: Literally never would I do that? I'm so not all around in the paints. I'm not that bitch. I said, I'm in his studio right now and I'm looking at his paintings. And I thought about this when we first started recording about how appropriate this, you know, spaces he's out here just for hours and hours and hours just processing on canvas and stuff, you know, like that's his, that's his life.

And so sometimes, um, Not that I push my, you know, my kind of stuff on him. I don't X we're not the same. Right. His ways of healing or moving through things are very different than mine. Mine usually involve something more aggressive. And, but I see how much he processes about his family and his emotions and the world all through his art.

And I just think it's so incredible. That's available to everybody in one form or another, but we don't really take that Liberty or we don't think it is, or we decide we're not emotional. I mean, don't you hear that all the time? Oh, he's not emotional or she's not emotional. It's like, that's not fucking possible.

I mean, what's your, you know, yes, psychopath. Yeah. Everybody has emotional,

[00:43:33] Nina Endrst: you know, I would love for that rhetoric to die out. Everybody has,

[00:43:39] Anna Toonk: oh, please like let it die. And I hear women say a lot about the men they're dating and it's like, no, they are emotional trust. You have to. Allow that we have to allow that as humans, people to, you know, engage in or invite them to engage in.

If they're not, that doesn't mean they're not, it just means they don't know maybe how. Nobody's ever asked them.

[00:44:19] Nina Endrst: Yeah. Well, don't you think we have to learn what our process is to emotionally regulate. And if you're not even at a meeting, I think ways made a decision. One that he was going to allow, even if he didn't grow up with that modeled or no one cordially invited him. Just from my own conversations with him, where he gave me the like, feeling that he realized he did feel a lot, like regardless of how that may be stacked up with masculinity or whatever he was like not doing for a while.

And I got to figure that out, you know, and, and chose to also embrace it versus like, Suppress it, you know, and I think for all of us, if you choose, like I'm going to accept that I am a human being. And that means I'm a feeling being that I feel things and have emotions and that's scary and it's can be very deregulating and stuff.

But, um, I get it then I think at some point you you're like, oh shit, then I'm going to need a pro. I'm going to need a process for when that doesn't feel so cool or feels a bit deregulated. I've been reading a lot about emotional, like regulation and deregulation. And I find it really interesting. So many friends that I think look to their partner for their regulation.

And I don't know that that's the look. I mean, I get it. I think it's appealing. I know that I'm a lot more regulated with a witness. I also think that like, When it's going to be more powerful. And what I think I hear, we hear from a lot of women who say like, oh, he's just not that emotional, but like a lot of people, a lot of women are doing the emotional labor for men who haven't learned how to process.

And also

[00:46:09] Anna Toonk: those women haven't necessarily learned how to process either. They're just taking on the baggage and then becoming more and more exhausted as a result of

[00:46:19] Nina Endrst: it. Yeah. You know what, and I'm better going on men, but I'm going to roll it back and say, I think I know a lot of women that don't know how to process so

[00:46:27] Anna Toonk: many I'm I'm bagging on everybody.

And also I've been one. So, um, you know exactly. Yeah. And I find that hard, a hard balance, you know, to be, I don't rely on way for a lot emotionally, but then I like, of course rely on him for everything, right. Because we're married and vice versa, but I try to process my stuff by myself or, you know, in some way, and then go to him if I, you know, not like as a complete package, like here's what I found.

I do like the first layer, at least four, at least. And I feel ideally, this is how, you know, it goes, but I didn't use to

[00:47:10] Nina Endrst: do that. It was better as well too, when you do that, because I feel like I can get really like defensive or emotional too, if I haven't done that. And they're like, so you're saying, or it sounds like you're triggered and I'm like, no, uh, uh, you know, like, One of my things is feeling like seen and understood.

And like, if I haven't processed a little bit, I think so that I can like, even. Tell it correctly or whatever, or, you know, like I find it can just really now I'm like, okay. I was mad at the F the first person, and now I'm mad at you, you know? Like it like expands the blast zone. Oh, it doesn't

[00:47:48] Anna Toonk: really give advice.

He's like, he's I know he. Hardly ever. Does he give advice? It's it's fascinating. I'm like, oh, you'd, you'd like me to fix that for you. I would like to fix it all for you. Can I give you a, a plan? Can I give you a plan of attack? And he's like, no, right. I mean, sometimes he wants it, but he is an expert and sometimes it drives me fucking crazy, but I like listening and I'm like, don't you have anything to say?

Isn't that crazy? What do you think about. You know, and it's, it's just, it's just fascinating how, how different, you know, we are. But anyway, I think that in relationships, in general, whatever. One of about this in particular is I actually used to use that process as a way to connect and I don't do that anymore and I don't need that anymore.

So that,

[00:48:43] Nina Endrst: yeah. Will you elaborate on that? I will.

[00:48:47] Anna Toonk: I don't think I ever was in any way, damsel in distress, but. Not my vibe, but I've heard a lot of my life and I've seen it, you know, reflected back to me. The people don't really think I need a lot of help. So I think that when I was in relationships with boys, because that's what they were, who I knew on some level could not really handle the, like me, you know, in general, that.

Almost not dumb myself down, but I would, instead of doing it by myself, I would go to them to process something. That I didn't need to process with them or that they definitely couldn't really give me great advice on as a way to form this connection with them. And I think it maybe was about them being needed.

But when I eliminated that completely, you know, pretty completely, it's just. Really interesting. You know, just how, how much I saw it clearly, how clearly I saw it rather.

[00:50:01] Nina Endrst: That's a really, I don't know that I've thought about it in that, in those terms, but it's sort of similar to gossip, you know, that it's, it's like, it's something we're doing to forge connection and.

It was like I was experiencing deja VU. Cause I was like thinking about, I think because, you know, feedback I've gotten often in my life is you're intimidating or you're, you know, like you seem to have it together and, um, You know, some kind of similar shit. And I agree. I think I would process as well to be like, see, I don't see, I'm not, here's a peek behind the curtain, you know, like I too have questions I'm fucked up.

Yeah. Like, or it was like a way I think to, I dealt with shame to be like, I'm not the cause of this. Look, what I'm a victim of circumstance or something, rather than just being like, whatever, you know, like it's life or it happened, or like, it was like my way of being like, I don't know, like don't judge me about the, you know, like or something.

Yeah, no, I I'm.

[00:51:17] Anna Toonk: Yes. All that feel that yeah. That's straight about.

[00:51:21] Nina Endrst: Yeah. And I forget, like, I don't remember which dude it was. I don't re I don't remember person. Maybe it could have been a friend. I'm sure I did it with friends too, when I was like, Yeah, this isn't good. You know, like this is not whatever you're going for this and that.

And it's not going to. No, it's not drawing anyone closer to you. It's not like it's not working and it's making you feel worse. So let's not, you know, but it's like, I can kind of have a, I have a vague sense memory of like, you know, telling some dude and then like their advice was dumb or something. And me being like, this is so dumb, don't do this again.

You know, have like, cause you, regardless of, even if it is a bit of a game you're playing like, or it's a bit, or an exercise you're going through like. It is still your stuff. It is still your psyche that you're dinging. Oh yeah.

[00:52:17] Anna Toonk: Ooh. Yeah. I know. I used to use myself. Yeah,

[00:52:21] Nina Endrst: you same. Yes. And it's like, it is when you're you, even though you're like kind of playing make, but we even away and being like, yeah, so, Hey, Brian, happy with this.

You know,

[00:52:35] Anna Toonk: Brian, I need some advice on something.

[00:52:40] Nina Endrst: So

[00:52:41] Anna Toonk: what do we do, Bri?

[00:52:44] Nina Endrst: And Brian's like jog. Yeah. Like, so sometimes when I'm playing disco, you know, this happens all the time when we call of duty bros and I like couldn't figure out in your life,

[00:52:59] Anna Toonk: like tell me more, Brian. I'm so interested. No, thank God. I never did one of those

[00:53:04] Nina Endrst: about anything.

But yeah, I think like for me, when I decided to stop disassociating and had to figure out what were the situations that made me disassociate, you know, it was like those sort of games. It was like, yeah, you feel so uncomfortable and disappointed you go by, by like, this answer is so bad. I'm leaving now. So God that's really, that's very, very interesting.

So as we start to wrap up what. Do we want to leave the people with, I think it's super important to figure out a little, what is your process? What is your process with work or emotional and how can you give yourself permission to just honor what your process is and to learn how to maybe communicate around it?

Cause like that's something for you and I, that. All the time where literally I've said, I'm not saying no, I just need time to process, like, or I just need time to sit with it, you know? And you're like, okay, okay. And then you're like, how much time? No, I'm kidding. She's never said that, but it's like, we just had to say.

You know, it's up here. Our processes are budding up against each other and it's felt good for me to like develop my own language around it. What do you think people, I would ask me to keep in mind.

[00:54:24] Anna Toonk: I say, where are your sensitivities right now? What are you currently processing? Maybe that's not and work from there.

[00:54:33] Nina Endrst: Ooh. Yeah, that's a good

[00:54:35] Anna Toonk: one. Workout from like an actual like workshop and actual thing. So what, what am I currently sensitive around? What do I, what am I processing at this moment? Could be small, could be not small and then start to branch out from there. You know, how could you support yourself in that?

Do you give yourself time? Are you not allowed time in your mind? Do you know what are kind of the limiting beliefs you bump up against? As it relates to processing.

[00:55:07] Nina Endrst: I love that. Yeah.

[00:55:09] Anna Toonk: So happy processing, Brian. Thanks for all your great advice.

[00:55:14] Nina Endrst: Tang spry, you changed our lives. Episode is

[00:55:17] Anna Toonk: dedicated to.

[00:55:26] Nina Endrst: That's all for today's episode. If you're interested in submitting a topic or want to submit a question for advice episode, please join our membership community@howtobehumanpod.com. Thanks for listening. And remember.