Had that break not happened,
there would not have been Swiss
2
00:00:05,171 --> 00:00:09,509
Anabaptists,
nor their descendants in Switzerland
3
00:00:09,801 --> 00:00:13,680
or Pennsylvania,
or I would not have existed.
4
00:00:14,806 --> 00:00:15,598
So,
5
00:00:15,598 --> 00:00:16,933
that was my pilgrimage.
6
00:00:16,933 --> 00:00:20,854
And, I, I can't say that
I expect everybody to,
7
00:00:21,563 --> 00:00:24,816
to groove on it, but I, I sure do.
8
00:00:31,531 --> 00:00:33,950
John Ruth has spent decades
9
00:00:33,950 --> 00:00:37,996
reading and researching,
writing books about the history of the
10
00:00:37,996 --> 00:00:42,667
Anabaptist movement and the Mennonites,
including this book on Conrad
11
00:00:42,709 --> 00:00:47,047
Grebel called Son of Zurich,
which is still in print and, was published
12
00:00:47,213 --> 00:00:50,925
almost exactly 50 years ago, So, John,
13
00:00:50,925 --> 00:00:53,928
it is an honor to have you on the podcast.
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Again,
you spent a lot of time reading into this
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00:00:58,850 --> 00:01:00,018
and researching these things
16
00:01:00,018 --> 00:01:04,773
and trying to pass that story
on to the next generation.
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00:01:04,981 --> 00:01:06,483
And you have a lot of different books.
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00:01:06,483 --> 00:01:10,195
But today I'd like to focus specifically
on Conrad
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00:01:10,653 --> 00:01:14,449
Grebel and how studying into
his life has affected
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00:01:14,449 --> 00:01:17,535
you and what lessons
that might have for us today.
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So wherever you want to take
the conversation, it is an honor
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to have you here,
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00:01:21,539 --> 00:01:25,376
and I'm looking forward to learning more
about Conrad Grebel tonight.
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00:01:27,420 --> 00:01:28,838
Well, when
25
00:01:28,838 --> 00:01:32,675
I was a young minister, 21 years old,
26
00:01:33,176 --> 00:01:36,763
I got a job in a book store in Souderton,
Pennsylvania.
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00:01:37,597 --> 00:01:39,933
I had been ordained a year
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00:01:39,933 --> 00:01:42,894
before the age of 20, not expecting it
29
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quit college because now I was a minister.
30
00:01:46,898 --> 00:01:49,484
I didn't need any more credentials.
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And in the bookstore
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00:01:51,903 --> 00:01:55,532
that I worked at was a new book
33
00:01:56,407 --> 00:02:00,370
by a scholar named Harold Stauffer Bender,
34
00:02:01,412 --> 00:02:04,415
out of Goshen, Indiana, in which,
35
00:02:04,874 --> 00:02:08,169
he depicted the life of Conrad Grebel.
36
00:02:09,212 --> 00:02:12,006
I later talked to a protege
37
00:02:12,006 --> 00:02:15,009
of Harold Bender named John C Wenger.
38
00:02:16,052 --> 00:02:20,723
And John C
Wenger told me that he was on hand
39
00:02:20,723 --> 00:02:25,520
when Harold Bender wrote
that book back in about 1950 or so.
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00:02:25,937 --> 00:02:30,108
He said he had 18 chairs
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00:02:30,108 --> 00:02:34,320
in a room with open
documents on each chair.
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00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,615
And he walked around the room
writing this book.
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00:02:38,491 --> 00:02:41,035
Well, I read this biography
44
00:02:41,035 --> 00:02:44,038
of Conrad Grebel, this brand new book.
45
00:02:44,247 --> 00:02:47,500
Frankly, it was way over my head. And,
46
00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:50,211
it wasn't
47
00:02:50,211 --> 00:02:54,007
terribly
exciting, but that was my introduction.
48
00:02:55,508 --> 00:02:56,801
Then let me see.
49
00:02:56,801 --> 00:02:59,053
In 19,
50
00:02:59,053 --> 00:03:01,097
20 years later, here
51
00:03:01,097 --> 00:03:06,144
I came from graduate studies
in English literature,
52
00:03:06,561 --> 00:03:09,564
and I was a new, professor of English
53
00:03:09,981 --> 00:03:13,902
at Eastern University, where I had gone
and I got,
54
00:03:14,861 --> 00:03:19,449
an invitation
from a man named Winfield Fretz,
55
00:03:19,824 --> 00:03:23,786
who was the principal of Conrad
Grebel College.
56
00:03:24,162 --> 00:03:26,915
And he said they wanted a biography
57
00:03:26,915 --> 00:03:30,251
of the man for whom
their college was named
58
00:03:31,044 --> 00:03:35,048
he had been born in my home
community, too, and he picked me out
59
00:03:35,048 --> 00:03:38,468
because I was young and literary
and he knew about me.
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And so,
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00:03:40,470 --> 00:03:44,432
I wrote, I went to
and wrote a book about Conrad Grebel,
62
00:03:45,391 --> 00:03:48,394
and I had no training in history.
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00:03:49,479 --> 00:03:52,482
So I just told it as a story as I could.
64
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And that's where that book came from.
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00:03:54,859 --> 00:03:59,072
then, now that I'm, almost 95
66
00:03:59,697 --> 00:04:02,242
and the past couple of years,
67
00:04:04,702 --> 00:04:05,745
the memory
68
00:04:05,745 --> 00:04:10,041
of Conrad Grebel and the role
he played was,
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00:04:10,625 --> 00:04:13,670
such a narrative in my head
that I returned to it.
70
00:04:14,045 --> 00:04:18,716
And then I had the chance to go to Croatia
71
00:04:18,716 --> 00:04:23,554
for a wedding in 2022, And I said, I'll go
72
00:04:23,554 --> 00:04:27,016
if you will also allow me to stop off
73
00:04:27,141 --> 00:04:30,019
in Zurich on the way home.
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00:04:30,019 --> 00:04:33,022
Well, in 30 minutes they had that arranged
75
00:04:33,356 --> 00:04:36,067
that allowed me to go
76
00:04:36,067 --> 00:04:39,821
to the canton of Zurich, to the,
77
00:04:41,406 --> 00:04:44,701
a town maybe 30 miles away named St.
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00:04:44,701 --> 00:04:45,785
Gallen.
79
00:04:45,785 --> 00:04:50,331
Where Conrad Grebel, Conrad
Grebel's brother in law, had been mayor.
80
00:04:50,832 --> 00:04:55,169
And the archive has Conrad
Grebel's correspondence.
81
00:04:56,045 --> 00:04:58,631
And in there was a letter
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00:04:58,631 --> 00:05:03,052
which he wrote in September 5th, 1524,
83
00:05:03,261 --> 00:05:06,264
that I wanted to put my hand on,
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00:05:06,723 --> 00:05:08,975
because in it
85
00:05:08,975 --> 00:05:12,603
Conrad talked about what it was
86
00:05:12,979 --> 00:05:17,275
to follow the word
to form a church of Christ,
87
00:05:17,859 --> 00:05:20,445
and that was where the church
88
00:05:20,445 --> 00:05:23,865
in which that formed
the group of people that I am
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00:05:24,115 --> 00:05:28,661
was born at that moment in history
and on those subjects.
90
00:05:28,995 --> 00:05:32,665
And I've and I want to make a pilgrimage
all the way home.
91
00:05:33,249 --> 00:05:35,626
Now, maybe that's just plain
sentimentality.
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00:05:35,626 --> 00:05:38,504
It's up to the audience
to think what they want to about it.
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00:05:38,504 --> 00:05:40,840
But for me, it was existential.
94
00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:44,302
And I went home
and I stood, looked at that letter,
95
00:05:44,302 --> 00:05:47,597
and I looked at I, by the way,
I looked at that letter over the years
96
00:05:48,097 --> 00:05:51,100
because John Christian Wenger, who was the
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00:05:51,351 --> 00:05:55,229
a protege of Harold Bender,
had published that letter.
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00:05:56,606 --> 00:05:57,565
He published it
99
00:05:57,565 --> 00:06:01,110
in a paperback,
and you could see both the original
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00:06:01,444 --> 00:06:04,906
a calligraphy in German
and the English translation.
101
00:06:05,281 --> 00:06:08,284
And I lived with that
from time to time over the years.
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00:06:09,077 --> 00:06:13,456
I think that, professional scholars
would say I overemphasize it,
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00:06:13,956 --> 00:06:16,959
but that's where that's where I find,
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00:06:17,752 --> 00:06:20,171
a break in history,
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00:06:20,171 --> 00:06:24,550
that I can refer to
and and imagine myself.
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00:06:25,093 --> 00:06:29,055
Had that break not happened,
there would not have been Swiss
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00:06:29,847 --> 00:06:34,185
Anabaptists,
nor their descendants in Switzerland
108
00:06:34,477 --> 00:06:38,356
or Pennsylvania,
or I would not have existed.
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00:06:39,482 --> 00:06:42,276
So, that's what,
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00:06:42,276 --> 00:06:43,611
that was my pilgrimage.
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00:06:43,611 --> 00:06:47,532
And, I, I can't say that
I expect everybody to,
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00:06:48,241 --> 00:06:51,494
to groove on it, but I, I sure do.
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00:06:52,995 --> 00:06:55,331
And I think it's an important piece
to note.
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00:06:55,331 --> 00:06:58,793
We're filming this in September 2024.
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So exactly.
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00:06:59,836 --> 00:07:04,757
Almost to the day, 500 years
from when Conrad Grebel wrote that letter.
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00:07:05,425 --> 00:07:08,594
And there's also another piece,
significant piece,
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00:07:08,678 --> 00:07:10,430
I think he told me this over the phone,
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00:07:10,430 --> 00:07:13,057
but when he wrote
that he hadn't been rebaptized yet
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00:07:13,057 --> 00:07:16,561
and the Anabaptist movement
in Switzerland had not started yet.
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00:07:16,936 --> 00:07:18,563
Do you want to talk about that?
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Like what?
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00:07:18,938 --> 00:07:21,691
Give us
maybe a little more context for this.
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Well, first, you're right, it was
four months before the first baptism even.
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00:07:27,196 --> 00:07:32,368
Wow. So at this point, like,
the whole one of the big pieces
126
00:07:32,368 --> 00:07:35,955
for the Anabaptists
was this concept of believer's baptism.
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00:07:35,955 --> 00:07:36,205
Right?
128
00:07:36,205 --> 00:07:36,998
And you're saying
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00:07:36,998 --> 00:07:40,585
this is before that even happened,
They haven't made that move yet.
130
00:07:40,877 --> 00:07:46,883
It four months later that George Blaurock,
an old, a, you know, slightly
131
00:07:46,883 --> 00:07:49,886
older person who was a reformed,
132
00:07:50,094 --> 00:07:53,723
a Catholic priest, implored Conrad,
133
00:07:54,682 --> 00:07:57,685
For God's
sake, give me true Christian baptism.
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00:07:57,852 --> 00:08:00,313
That was in January.
135
00:08:00,313 --> 00:08:03,399
But this letter was written in September.
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00:08:04,525 --> 00:08:08,112
And, I think it would be most interesting
to to
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00:08:08,112 --> 00:08:11,741
to just consider a couple of facts
about Conrad Grebel.
138
00:08:12,116 --> 00:08:15,286
You know, he grew up in a noble family.
139
00:08:16,037 --> 00:08:20,750
you were given, real estate,
by the emperor.
140
00:08:20,791 --> 00:08:25,046
If you had ancestors
who were in the Crusades.
141
00:08:25,713 --> 00:08:26,881
Wait, really?
142
00:08:26,881 --> 00:08:29,884
So the Crusades
would have been hundreds of years before.
143
00:08:29,967 --> 00:08:30,510
right.
144
00:08:30,510 --> 00:08:34,222
But that's when the nobility was given
real estate.
145
00:08:34,222 --> 00:08:37,225
And Conrad
grew up in one of those noble families.
146
00:08:37,350 --> 00:08:39,352
He is from Grebel.
147
00:08:39,352 --> 00:08:42,897
So he not just Grebel
from Grebel means from that family.
148
00:08:43,231 --> 00:08:47,527
So he was from the top of the, social,
149
00:08:49,111 --> 00:08:50,738
status in Zurich.
150
00:08:50,738 --> 00:08:56,327
His father was the head of one of the
guilds and a member of the Inner Council.
151
00:08:56,327 --> 00:08:59,372
Not just the 200 that ran Zurich
152
00:09:00,206 --> 00:09:04,418
As a Catholic, control was, was, fading.
153
00:09:05,670 --> 00:09:08,506
Literally, Zurich was,
154
00:09:08,506 --> 00:09:12,260
technically under the control
of a Catholic nun of an abbess.
155
00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,596
In one of the churches
the Frauenkirche the
156
00:09:15,596 --> 00:09:18,599
the lady Our Lady's church...
157
00:09:18,975 --> 00:09:20,268
Well, anyway.
158
00:09:20,268 --> 00:09:24,814
So. Okay, first off, Conrad
Grebel is from a noble family.
159
00:09:25,356 --> 00:09:27,483
He lived in a tower house.
160
00:09:27,483 --> 00:09:30,486
He was sent to the University of Vienna.
161
00:09:30,695 --> 00:09:33,698
And the the man that,
162
00:09:33,906 --> 00:09:38,536
monitored, monitored him
there, became his brother in law.
163
00:09:40,871 --> 00:09:44,458
His name was Adrian von Baut from St.
164
00:09:44,625 --> 00:09:47,712
Gallen, and he was given the Renaissance
165
00:09:47,712 --> 00:09:52,133
name of Vadian, see, Switzerland was
166
00:09:52,508 --> 00:09:55,219
was envying at that moment
167
00:09:55,219 --> 00:09:59,223
the beginnings of the Renaissance
in Italy, in Milan.
168
00:10:00,308 --> 00:10:05,354
And Vadian, the professor of young Conrad
Grebel, who came to the university
169
00:10:05,354 --> 00:10:09,400
there was so bright
that his professor said,
170
00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:14,447
you are going to be the top person
when the Swiss get their renaissance.
171
00:10:14,989 --> 00:10:16,741
He said this about Conrad Grebel.
172
00:10:16,741 --> 00:10:19,118
You're saying so, Conrad.
173
00:10:19,118 --> 00:10:22,788
So he, he so he was very, very,
very smart.
174
00:10:22,788 --> 00:10:23,873
Yeah. Yeah.
175
00:10:23,873 --> 00:10:27,126
he was smart and he was not together.
176
00:10:27,209 --> 00:10:29,170
He was a young scape grace.
177
00:10:30,463 --> 00:10:32,298
And, in my book, I
178
00:10:32,298 --> 00:10:35,301
tried I tell, the narrative sequence
179
00:10:35,343 --> 00:10:39,722
in which eventually,
believe it or not, when the plague hit
180
00:10:40,473 --> 00:10:43,893
and almost killed Ulrich Zwingli,
who was the,
181
00:10:45,144 --> 00:10:48,773
at that time stirring Zurich to, reform,
182
00:10:51,025 --> 00:10:54,028
that broke up Conrad's, affiliate,
183
00:10:54,445 --> 00:10:59,033
studies at Vienna and his professor
Vadian,
184
00:10:59,325 --> 00:11:03,913
they they both came home back
to Switzerland and through that connection
185
00:11:03,913 --> 00:11:06,957
Vadian got to know
Conrad sister and married her.
186
00:11:06,999 --> 00:11:08,584
Martha.
187
00:11:08,584 --> 00:11:10,503
It's quite a fascinating story.
188
00:11:10,503 --> 00:11:14,882
And then Conrad doesn't go back to school,
and finally he goes back
189
00:11:14,882 --> 00:11:16,384
and he wants to go to Milan.
190
00:11:16,384 --> 00:11:19,804
He wants to be with the growing edge
of the of the,
191
00:11:20,471 --> 00:11:22,890
Renaissance,
where they're studying the classics.
192
00:11:22,890 --> 00:11:27,561
Because that was kind of the,
cutting edge, at the time or like was new.
193
00:11:27,561 --> 00:11:31,565
It was when you get your great painters
and your great scholars
194
00:11:31,816 --> 00:11:36,153
are out of Milan, but that hadn't hit
Switzerland or France yet.
195
00:11:36,821 --> 00:11:40,950
And so, Conrad wanted to go to Milan,
196
00:11:41,283 --> 00:11:44,286
but instead wound up at the University
of Paris.
197
00:11:44,912 --> 00:11:50,793
Why? Well, because the king of France gave
198
00:11:51,377 --> 00:11:54,880
scholarships to Swiss. Why?
199
00:11:55,297 --> 00:11:57,341
Because the King of France wanted
200
00:11:58,342 --> 00:12:02,012
the Swiss soldiers in his 100 man
bodyguard.
201
00:12:02,346 --> 00:12:05,349
Because the Swiss
soldiers were known as the best.
202
00:12:05,474 --> 00:12:07,143
Oh, that's.
203
00:12:07,143 --> 00:12:08,853
So it was all politics.
204
00:12:08,853 --> 00:12:11,313
Basically,
it was a political move Well, everything.
205
00:12:11,313 --> 00:12:12,857
It's always all politics.
206
00:12:12,857 --> 00:12:16,277
And, you know,
its economy is always operating.
207
00:12:16,277 --> 00:12:17,611
Politics is always up.
208
00:12:17,611 --> 00:12:19,321
But Conrad didn't think this way.
209
00:12:19,321 --> 00:12:22,324
He wanted to know these Latin
and these great classics,
210
00:12:22,658 --> 00:12:25,661
but instead he
he wound up at the University of Paris,
211
00:12:25,745 --> 00:12:29,331
and they had not yet been affected
by the Renaissance.
212
00:12:30,291 --> 00:12:34,336
By the way, King
Francis was finally captured by,
213
00:12:34,628 --> 00:12:41,343
in some war, not until the last of his 100
Swiss guard was killed.
214
00:12:42,094 --> 00:12:45,097
That's how tough the Swiss soldiers were.
215
00:12:45,264 --> 00:12:47,850
Well, Conrad is studying at the.
216
00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:48,976
He's not studying.
217
00:12:48,976 --> 00:12:51,103
He's just goofing off
at the university of Paris.
218
00:12:51,103 --> 00:12:52,271
He's bored stiff.
219
00:12:52,271 --> 00:12:55,816
Oh, he's, is kicked out by his tutor,
220
00:12:56,233 --> 00:12:59,361
and he's a skirt
chaser who gets venereal disease.
221
00:12:59,695 --> 00:13:01,614
He's just goofing off.
222
00:13:01,614 --> 00:13:05,284
And then he hears that back
in his hometown of Zurich,
223
00:13:05,868 --> 00:13:10,039
where his family is a real player,
there's a reformer Ulrich Zwingli.
224
00:13:10,581 --> 00:13:11,791
And he gets excited.
225
00:13:13,167 --> 00:13:16,170
Then he starts thinking.
226
00:13:16,545 --> 00:13:20,174
At that moment, we're talking to 1524, 25.
227
00:13:20,591 --> 00:13:23,594
At that moment, the peasants, the
228
00:13:23,886 --> 00:13:26,764
the farmers,
229
00:13:26,764 --> 00:13:29,725
of Europe are rising up with their,
230
00:13:29,725 --> 00:13:33,687
pikes and their forks
and whatever they had,
231
00:13:33,687 --> 00:13:38,025
they had no guns or swords
like the professional soldiers had.
232
00:13:38,317 --> 00:13:42,154
And they are defying the order.
233
00:13:42,154 --> 00:13:43,656
They're defying the kings.
234
00:13:43,656 --> 00:13:46,659
Yeah, the...
235
00:13:46,992 --> 00:13:48,994
And Martin Luther said that.
236
00:13:48,994 --> 00:13:50,621
Chase them down. They're bad news.
237
00:13:50,621 --> 00:13:53,749
Even though he had already seen
through, the,
238
00:13:54,083 --> 00:13:57,086
shallowness of the macro culture.
239
00:13:57,253 --> 00:14:00,256
People coming up from Rome
trying to raise money
240
00:14:00,297 --> 00:14:04,593
by selling indulgences, to finish building
241
00:14:04,593 --> 00:14:08,597
Saint Peter's and Luther in 1519 posts.
242
00:14:08,597 --> 00:14:14,311
His, his theses on the wall and says,
God help me.
243
00:14:14,311 --> 00:14:15,521
I can't do any other.
244
00:14:15,521 --> 00:14:20,818
And he puts his 95 theses on, okay,
that's not what stirred Conrad up.
245
00:14:21,026 --> 00:14:24,321
He heard that the reform was hitting
Zwingli,
246
00:14:24,780 --> 00:14:27,783
and Zwingli came to his conclusion
247
00:14:28,075 --> 00:14:30,744
after he had been a chaplain
248
00:14:30,744 --> 00:14:33,539
at a battle of Mariano,
249
00:14:33,539 --> 00:14:37,376
in which Italians and Swiss fought.
250
00:14:37,835 --> 00:14:40,838
And, a lot of them were killed
and Zwingli says
251
00:14:41,463 --> 00:14:44,884
to himself, this isn't making sense
for two Christians.
252
00:14:45,551 --> 00:14:46,886
And at that time,
253
00:14:47,970 --> 00:14:50,848
the reform
is starting to seep into Zurich.
254
00:14:50,848 --> 00:14:54,852
And they hear about this professional,
this brilliant young preacher at,
255
00:14:55,436 --> 00:14:59,899
Zwingli, at, who's at a, a monastery.
256
00:14:59,899 --> 00:15:01,442
And they invite him up there.
257
00:15:01,442 --> 00:15:05,362
And when Conrad and goofing off in Paris
hears
258
00:15:05,696 --> 00:15:09,116
that his home
church has this exciting new preacher,
259
00:15:10,659 --> 00:15:12,286
this turns him on.
260
00:15:12,286 --> 00:15:15,372
At the same time,
a very interesting thing happens
261
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,043
in one of his letters
home to his brothers in law,
262
00:15:20,544 --> 00:15:23,547
he expresses the realization
263
00:15:23,589 --> 00:15:26,592
that he is basically living.
264
00:15:28,385 --> 00:15:30,971
On the,
265
00:15:30,971 --> 00:15:32,681
the scholarship that King
266
00:15:32,681 --> 00:15:35,768
Francis gave to Zurich. And.
267
00:15:36,226 --> 00:15:39,188
And where did King Francis get his money
268
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,148
from taxation.
269
00:15:41,148 --> 00:15:43,317
And who paid taxes?
270
00:15:43,317 --> 00:15:44,818
The peasants.
271
00:15:44,818 --> 00:15:45,945
And what did they do?
272
00:15:45,945 --> 00:15:48,781
Gave half of their produce to the king?
273
00:15:48,781 --> 00:15:50,324
Oh, half. Whoa!
274
00:15:50,324 --> 00:15:53,661
hardly enough for them to eat to,
and they were in it.
275
00:15:53,869 --> 00:15:54,912
They were in trouble.
276
00:15:55,913 --> 00:15:56,538
And the
277
00:15:56,538 --> 00:15:59,541
Catholics and Luther both said,
put them down.
278
00:16:00,876 --> 00:16:04,755
And Conrad has this
he has this streak in himself.
279
00:16:04,755 --> 00:16:09,343
He said, now wait a minute, and it hits
his conscience, and this does not add up.
280
00:16:09,635 --> 00:16:12,930
And he goes home
and his parents are disgusted with him.
281
00:16:12,930 --> 00:16:18,352
And he shacks up with a barber, his
girlfriend, and doesn't tell his parents.
282
00:16:18,352 --> 00:16:22,106
And but then he gets involved
with Ulrich Zwingli,
283
00:16:22,106 --> 00:16:25,109
and Ulrich Zwingli is impressed with him.
284
00:16:25,693 --> 00:16:28,696
And his buddy
285
00:16:29,738 --> 00:16:30,280
Félix Manz.
286
00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,075
Félix Manz is a Hebrew scholar.
287
00:16:33,075 --> 00:16:35,744
Conrad Grebel knows his Greek.
288
00:16:35,744 --> 00:16:37,913
And Zwingli says, you know what, I'm going
289
00:16:37,913 --> 00:16:41,709
to put a Bible college here
in the Grossmunster, in the big church.
290
00:16:42,001 --> 00:16:43,752
We're going to start over again.
291
00:16:43,752 --> 00:16:45,713
The Conrad you're going to be the English,
292
00:16:45,713 --> 00:16:49,800
the Greek professor
and Felix, you're going to be there.
293
00:16:51,635 --> 00:16:53,512
Hebrew.
294
00:16:53,512 --> 00:16:54,888
So everything's going fine.
295
00:16:54,888 --> 00:16:57,891
And Zwingli does what Luther did.
296
00:16:58,517 --> 00:17:02,771
Luther had posted his 95
theses on the door at Wittenberg.
297
00:17:03,022 --> 00:17:04,189
This is what I believe.
298
00:17:04,189 --> 00:17:05,774
And this is what ought to be done.
299
00:17:05,774 --> 00:17:06,400
Which would.
300
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:07,609
That was Germany. Right.
301
00:17:07,609 --> 00:17:10,362
That was in Germany, at Worms. Okay.
302
00:17:10,362 --> 00:17:13,365
so Zwingli puts out a book
303
00:17:13,365 --> 00:17:16,827
not of 95, but 56 theses,
304
00:17:17,494 --> 00:17:20,497
and he asks Conrad Grebel,
305
00:17:20,497 --> 00:17:24,084
this young fella, to write a stylish,
306
00:17:25,044 --> 00:17:28,047
Latin poem at the end of his book,
307
00:17:28,505 --> 00:17:30,841
and that appears there.
308
00:17:30,841 --> 00:17:34,344
And, Conrad wrote it
and stuck a Greek phrase in there.
309
00:17:34,803 --> 00:17:35,637
He loved.
310
00:17:35,637 --> 00:17:40,017
And he wrote all these letters
home to his now brother in law in Latin.
311
00:17:41,393 --> 00:17:44,396
The letter that I'm talking about
312
00:17:44,813 --> 00:17:47,024
was the first letter he wrote in German.
313
00:17:47,024 --> 00:17:49,068
No, now we're going to get serious.
314
00:17:49,068 --> 00:17:53,989
We're going to get back to who we are,
not who we aspire to be in terms
315
00:17:53,989 --> 00:17:57,701
of the macro culture, because something
is happening in our hearts.
316
00:17:58,035 --> 00:18:01,413
We are reading 20 of us or less than 20
317
00:18:01,663 --> 00:18:05,209
are reading the scriptures. And,
318
00:18:06,210 --> 00:18:08,921
it's making a difference in our life.
319
00:18:08,921 --> 00:18:12,633
And, then he hears about the peasants.
320
00:18:13,092 --> 00:18:16,428
And he hears that the leader
of the peasants Revolt
321
00:18:17,679 --> 00:18:19,515
in Bavaria.
322
00:18:19,515 --> 00:18:21,683
He’s taking a tough stand.
323
00:18:21,683 --> 00:18:25,104
He's not doing like Zwingli,
who says we'll move as fast
324
00:18:25,437 --> 00:18:28,440
as the town council can let us go.
325
00:18:28,565 --> 00:18:32,986
And that really shakes Conrad,
because he's been reading the scriptures
326
00:18:32,986 --> 00:18:36,198
straight back into Matthew
and Mark and Luke,
327
00:18:36,782 --> 00:18:39,326
and he's he's,
328
00:18:39,326 --> 00:18:42,454
developing that logic
in his own mentality.
329
00:18:42,788 --> 00:18:45,290
And then he hears this,
330
00:18:45,290 --> 00:18:49,503
other, what he considers
to be a political solution.
331
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:54,800
And he admires somebody to take his
tough stand, which is Thomas Munster.
332
00:18:55,008 --> 00:18:59,763
Now, Thomas Munster goes down in history
as a heretic and a troublemaker
333
00:18:59,763 --> 00:19:03,142
and a rabble rouser and a communist
and everything else.
334
00:19:03,642 --> 00:19:07,896
And Conrad writes
a fan letter to Thomas Munster.
335
00:19:07,896 --> 00:19:11,608
This is the letter I'm talking to you
about, in which he says, don't
336
00:19:12,067 --> 00:19:14,736
be surprised, Brother Thomas, that we call
337
00:19:14,736 --> 00:19:17,739
you brother because you are different.
338
00:19:18,073 --> 00:19:20,784
You are not into this spurious,
339
00:19:21,827 --> 00:19:23,120
compromising.
340
00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:25,455
You go right to the root of things.
341
00:19:25,455 --> 00:19:30,169
See, Grebel was already thinking about
what's fair, what's right,
342
00:19:30,544 --> 00:19:33,881
and going straight to the
or to the, Hebrew.
343
00:19:34,047 --> 00:19:38,427
And, Hebrew and Greek, New Testament
and, and,
344
00:19:38,969 --> 00:19:43,682
and just plain living with it
and discussing it around in this circle
345
00:19:43,932 --> 00:19:46,685
and being drawn into its logic
346
00:19:46,685 --> 00:19:49,688
and feeling that even the reform
that Zwingli
347
00:19:49,771 --> 00:19:52,983
is bringing in
the Catholic Church was just huge.
348
00:19:53,859 --> 00:19:56,862
Zwingli will still,
349
00:19:57,362 --> 00:19:58,614
kill.
350
00:19:58,614 --> 00:20:00,324
You have to be realistic.
351
00:20:00,324 --> 00:20:02,534
You know, Martin
Luther said the same thing.
352
00:20:02,534 --> 00:20:06,038
By the way, Conrad had already written
a letter to Martin Luther,
353
00:20:06,038 --> 00:20:09,750
which he never answered,
although he acknowledged he got it.
354
00:20:09,917 --> 00:20:12,002
Oh that's interesting. Okay.
355
00:20:12,002 --> 00:20:15,130
And he said, yeah,
if you fellows want to have the, your,
356
00:20:15,714 --> 00:20:18,675
your a small group like that
you got ahead.
357
00:20:18,675 --> 00:20:22,262
But don't expect that the rest of
the Christendom will follow you.
358
00:20:22,387 --> 00:20:24,306
Be realistic.
359
00:20:24,306 --> 00:20:27,976
Well then the Anabaptists would have said
well but what's it for then.
360
00:20:29,102 --> 00:20:31,939
Luther said that's why we need grace.
361
00:20:31,939 --> 00:20:34,399
We're all sinners. I'm sure we won't.
362
00:20:34,399 --> 00:20:35,442
We won't be right.
363
00:20:35,442 --> 00:20:37,527
But that was his solution, grace.
364
00:20:37,527 --> 00:20:40,155
Conrad's solution was
365
00:20:40,155 --> 00:20:41,406
Let’s do it!
366
00:20:41,406 --> 00:20:43,158
Let's read the sermon on the Mount.
367
00:20:43,158 --> 00:20:48,830
When Ulrich Zwingli first turn
toward the congregation, the great church
368
00:20:48,830 --> 00:20:52,834
that Grossmunster of Zürich and laid open
the New Testament
369
00:20:52,834 --> 00:20:56,964
in Greek, in Greek,
and instead of turning back toward the
370
00:20:58,006 --> 00:21:01,009
crucifix, and saying,
371
00:21:01,301 --> 00:21:03,679
Well, okay,
372
00:21:03,679 --> 00:21:04,721
it won't come to me now.
373
00:21:04,721 --> 00:21:07,724
I'm almost 95.
374
00:21:08,934 --> 00:21:11,895
He turned around and said, I'm
going to talk to you in German,
375
00:21:11,895 --> 00:21:16,149
not in Latin, and I'm going to have
the New Testament open here.
376
00:21:16,900 --> 00:21:19,736
And I'm going to start at the beginning
377
00:21:19,736 --> 00:21:22,739
of Matthew one,
and I'm going to go wherever it takes us.
378
00:21:22,990 --> 00:21:25,867
See that that was just unheard of
at the time.
379
00:21:25,867 --> 00:21:26,952
That's right.
380
00:21:26,952 --> 00:21:29,955
In fact, I like the quote of an old man
381
00:21:30,163 --> 00:21:32,958
the church was packed They all stood.
382
00:21:32,958 --> 00:21:35,043
There was no, you didn't sit.
383
00:21:35,043 --> 00:21:39,798
And one old man said, when I heard that
him preach like that in my language,
384
00:21:41,383 --> 00:21:44,970
in my German, in my local idiom,
385
00:21:45,387 --> 00:21:48,390
he said, the hairs
stood up in the back of my neck.
386
00:21:49,516 --> 00:21:52,728
Well, it did on the back of Conrad
Grebel’s neck too.
387
00:21:52,769 --> 00:21:54,604
And he got, he got visceral.
388
00:21:54,604 --> 00:21:56,773
He said my, I'm swollen.
389
00:21:56,773 --> 00:21:58,734
I, he quoted the book of job.
390
00:21:58,734 --> 00:22:01,486
He said I almost gonna burst.
391
00:22:01,486 --> 00:22:04,489
he wrote to his brother in law,
his brother in law said
392
00:22:04,489 --> 00:22:06,533
oh cool it, come on now.
393
00:22:06,533 --> 00:22:08,744
But Conrad was a hothead.
394
00:22:08,744 --> 00:22:13,623
We began with radical, not compromising.
395
00:22:14,666 --> 00:22:17,085
Approach to the scriptures.
396
00:22:17,085 --> 00:22:20,422
Well, what Conrad found in
the scriptures was so interesting
397
00:22:20,756 --> 00:22:24,760
and which it's why I live even.
398
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,762
It's why a group of people were formed.
399
00:22:26,762 --> 00:22:28,972
It took his point of view.
400
00:22:28,972 --> 00:22:30,557
By the way, I don't praise Conrad.
401
00:22:30,557 --> 00:22:32,851
He was not mature in everything.
402
00:22:32,851 --> 00:22:36,063
Sounds like he's on
quite the journey through this time right.
403
00:22:36,104 --> 00:22:37,606
Like he's making mistakes.
404
00:22:37,606 --> 00:22:39,358
He's kind of a partier all this stuff.
405
00:22:39,358 --> 00:22:41,860
But then there's also elements
that you're saying where.
406
00:22:41,860 --> 00:22:44,154
Wait a second. Oh he's, oh he's searching.
407
00:22:44,154 --> 00:22:46,740
Oh what about this.
And he's learning and developing.
408
00:22:46,740 --> 00:22:50,911
Well the way he would put it was this
when we took up the scriptures.
409
00:22:52,662 --> 00:22:54,081
That's a powerful line.
410
00:22:54,081 --> 00:22:55,415
Yeah.
411
00:22:55,415 --> 00:22:57,751
When we did that we were going
412
00:22:57,751 --> 00:23:00,712
before that we were going along
with whatever worked.
413
00:23:01,254 --> 00:23:03,965
But when we took up the scriptures
414
00:23:03,965 --> 00:23:07,803
then he said and,
and by the way, in that letter
415
00:23:08,095 --> 00:23:11,098
which I looked at many times, again.
416
00:23:11,681 --> 00:23:15,560
he says, when you have the rights,
417
00:23:16,103 --> 00:23:19,106
for them it was the mass,
or we would say communion.
418
00:23:19,314 --> 00:23:22,025
It must not be done without Matthew
419
00:23:22,025 --> 00:23:25,028
18 and love.
420
00:23:25,529 --> 00:23:28,198
Now that's first intrigued me.
421
00:23:28,198 --> 00:23:30,325
What are you talking about?
422
00:23:30,325 --> 00:23:32,661
He said that you.
423
00:23:32,661 --> 00:23:35,872
It is the supper of unity,
the communion supper.
424
00:23:36,123 --> 00:23:40,502
It is not a superficial,
425
00:23:41,670 --> 00:23:44,089
some kind of,
426
00:23:44,089 --> 00:23:46,341
mysterious. It's the body of Christ.
427
00:23:46,341 --> 00:23:51,179
But is the supper of unity,
which he gives us in his body.
428
00:23:51,513 --> 00:23:54,641
And you do not take that
unless you are in unity,
429
00:23:55,100 --> 00:24:00,772
and you disturb discern whether you
are in unity, and then you eat and bread.
430
00:24:01,231 --> 00:24:03,150
And that's Matthew 18.
431
00:24:03,150 --> 00:24:04,860
But there's more in Matthew 18,
432
00:24:05,861 --> 00:24:06,695
and there's
433
00:24:06,695 --> 00:24:09,698
something revolutionary in Matthew 18.
434
00:24:09,781 --> 00:24:12,784
By the way,
he also says to Thomas Munster, who,
435
00:24:12,951 --> 00:24:16,496
by the way, who never got that letter,
he was killed before he got the letter.
436
00:24:16,913 --> 00:24:19,916
I don't know how it got back to Conrad's
brother in law.
437
00:24:19,916 --> 00:24:22,169
And thank God it did.
438
00:24:22,169 --> 00:24:23,503
So we can read it today.
439
00:24:23,503 --> 00:24:26,590
It's in the archives there
in, in the town of St.
440
00:24:26,590 --> 00:24:27,632
Gallen.
441
00:24:27,632 --> 00:24:30,343
But he said,
442
00:24:30,343 --> 00:24:33,638
when we took up this word and Jesus,
443
00:24:33,805 --> 00:24:37,684
take Matthew 18
and, the binding and loosing of it,
444
00:24:39,186 --> 00:24:40,145
Here's how it works.
445
00:24:40,145 --> 00:24:43,773
So I went back and looked at Matthew 18
as later,
446
00:24:44,649 --> 00:24:48,862
and Jesus was there describing
how you deal with relationship.
447
00:24:49,738 --> 00:24:53,200
And by the way, for Conrad,
it was not about doctrine,
448
00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:57,370
it was not about politics,
it was about relationship.
449
00:24:58,747 --> 00:25:00,749
And that's what the gospel is.
450
00:25:00,749 --> 00:25:03,084
It is reconciliation.
451
00:25:03,084 --> 00:25:06,922
And if you don't have that, no matter
how right you are about any doctrine.
452
00:25:07,172 --> 00:25:12,677
So what that didn't create the Anabaptist
church, relationship did.
453
00:25:13,762 --> 00:25:17,933
It's more
so he uses the word brother over and over
454
00:25:18,350 --> 00:25:21,311
and he says, don't
be surprised that we call you brother.
455
00:25:21,853 --> 00:25:27,108
But we call you brother on the basis
of your sticking to the scriptures.
456
00:25:27,275 --> 00:25:30,278
Now, he said at one point.
457
00:25:30,737 --> 00:25:32,614
I hope you're not,
458
00:25:32,614 --> 00:25:36,409
I hope it isn't true what they say,
that you are using the sword
459
00:25:36,535 --> 00:25:39,538
because Christians don't use the sword.
460
00:25:39,621 --> 00:25:42,332
And that was ten, ten years before
Menno Simon
461
00:25:42,332 --> 00:25:45,961
set it up in Friesland, in Holland,
in the Netherlands.
462
00:25:46,211 --> 00:25:48,755
Conrad says that first,
463
00:25:48,755 --> 00:25:51,841
well, Thomas Munster was a fighter.
464
00:25:52,259 --> 00:25:54,302
He died under the sword.
465
00:25:54,302 --> 00:25:58,390
He's celebrated by communists
with a great big cyclorama.
466
00:25:59,516 --> 00:26:00,600
Yeah.
467
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,729
And, he's considered as a violent
overthrower of false power.
468
00:26:05,272 --> 00:26:08,275
But Conrad is radical both ways.
469
00:26:08,650 --> 00:26:11,653
He says to follow the scriptures
wherever they take you.
470
00:26:11,903 --> 00:26:16,825
But don't take the sword,
because true, true believing Christians,
471
00:26:17,826 --> 00:26:20,704
do not use worldly sword or the war.
472
00:26:20,704 --> 00:26:23,707
Because with them, killing, is
473
00:26:25,375 --> 00:26:27,294
totally put away.
474
00:26:27,294 --> 00:26:30,088
Now that is a line in history.
475
00:26:30,088 --> 00:26:32,173
Luther didn't cross it.
476
00:26:32,173 --> 00:26:34,009
Zwingli didn't cross it.
477
00:26:34,009 --> 00:26:36,094
Presbyterians didn't cross.
478
00:26:36,094 --> 00:26:38,305
That's what made us a minority.
479
00:26:38,305 --> 00:26:41,308
Otherwise we'd have been part of Zwingli’s
reform
480
00:26:41,391 --> 00:26:44,394
Lutherans and and and Reformed Church.
481
00:26:44,436 --> 00:26:47,439
That's why we were a group
that became an ethnic group
482
00:26:47,856 --> 00:26:51,484
that gave up everything
and gave up their lives.
483
00:26:52,193 --> 00:26:56,531
Conrad Grebel, is it like you're saying
there is a line there, right.
484
00:26:56,531 --> 00:26:58,742
That,
that the other reformers had come up to.
485
00:26:58,742 --> 00:27:02,245
And Conrad Rebel said,
we're crossing over That is right.
486
00:27:02,245 --> 00:27:02,621
And that
487
00:27:03,913 --> 00:27:05,790
that created this moment right here.
488
00:27:05,790 --> 00:27:10,378
We're talking it would not have happened
That's incredible to think about.
489
00:27:10,879 --> 00:27:15,216
Like, now, some of these ideas, it's like,
okay, we're 500 years in.
490
00:27:15,425 --> 00:27:17,802
We, you know, we just kind of
take them for granted, I suppose.
491
00:27:17,802 --> 00:27:20,388
But someone had to be the first person
to say this.
492
00:27:20,388 --> 00:27:23,016
This is where we're going to be. Right.
493
00:27:23,016 --> 00:27:24,225
That's a profound thought.
494
00:27:24,225 --> 00:27:27,062
Why don't we think our way back
to that moment?
495
00:27:27,062 --> 00:27:29,731
Yeah. And then,
496
00:27:29,731 --> 00:27:31,524
you know, if they could have caught Conrad
497
00:27:31,524 --> 00:27:34,527
after he baptized, he'd have been
498
00:27:35,195 --> 00:27:38,198
well, they caught him, and his buddy
Felix Manz and drowned him,
499
00:27:38,448 --> 00:27:41,409
they would have killed Conrad Grebel
anyway.
500
00:27:41,409 --> 00:27:47,082
But but he, he managed to escape a number
of times, including out of a dungeon.
501
00:27:47,332 --> 00:27:48,708
Oh, really?
502
00:27:48,708 --> 00:27:50,919
If you, how like.
503
00:27:50,919 --> 00:27:54,130
But as in he had been caught
and was in the dungeon and he gets out
504
00:27:54,673 --> 00:27:57,884
and put in this dungeon
on the wall of Zurich.
505
00:27:58,134 --> 00:27:59,177
Only about a,
506
00:28:00,679 --> 00:28:03,098
1000ft from the home he had grown up in.
507
00:28:03,098 --> 00:28:07,602
Oh, yeah, but somebody, left a door open,
508
00:28:07,602 --> 00:28:12,440
and they all got out, and Conrad got away,
and he went over to his sister,
509
00:28:13,066 --> 00:28:15,985
to another sister, and died in the plague.
510
00:28:15,985 --> 00:28:19,030
As a young man,
I don't think he was even 30 yet.
511
00:28:20,115 --> 00:28:23,159
So, but we have more to say about it.
512
00:28:23,159 --> 00:28:25,328
But here's the thing.
513
00:28:25,328 --> 00:28:27,455
Conrad Grebel said,
514
00:28:27,455 --> 00:28:30,458
I counted the times he used the word love,
515
00:28:31,251 --> 00:28:35,422
and that the times he used
the word word the word.
516
00:28:35,964 --> 00:28:39,384
And he says...
517
00:28:40,468 --> 00:28:43,096
That is, move with or use.
518
00:28:43,096 --> 00:28:48,309
I asked a Swiss scholar what that meant
and he said, use the word Conrad.
519
00:28:48,977 --> 00:28:53,565
The American translators say march forward
with a word and stuff like that.
520
00:28:53,773 --> 00:28:56,985
But a Swiss
scholar told me the University of Zurich
521
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,405
used the word to form a Church of Christ
522
00:29:00,864 --> 00:29:03,867
to form a Church of Christ.
523
00:29:03,908 --> 00:29:07,787
Now, you had the church
and then you had the Reformed Church.
524
00:29:08,329 --> 00:29:12,250
But Conrad still wants
to form a church that's us.
525
00:29:13,209 --> 00:29:14,419
That's
526
00:29:14,419 --> 00:29:17,088
that that's
drawing on and starting from there.
527
00:29:17,088 --> 00:29:20,091
And he mentioned Matthew 18.
528
00:29:20,675 --> 00:29:22,761
Now let's think about Matthew 18.
529
00:29:22,761 --> 00:29:24,846
And Jesus said this.
530
00:29:24,846 --> 00:29:27,140
It's about relationship.
531
00:29:27,140 --> 00:29:30,018
He said.
532
00:29:30,018 --> 00:29:31,728
You know,
533
00:29:31,728 --> 00:29:36,191
the righteous people say to Jesus
you fellowship with sinners.
534
00:29:36,524 --> 00:29:38,985
You know, that's the way we do today.
535
00:29:38,985 --> 00:29:41,988
When it something comes up, first we say,
what about sin?
536
00:29:42,530 --> 00:29:43,907
Jesus didn't start there.
537
00:29:43,907 --> 00:29:45,867
He started with relationship.
538
00:29:45,867 --> 00:29:48,787
He just go talk to the guy,
539
00:29:48,787 --> 00:29:51,581
hey, won't listen or take somebody else.
540
00:29:51,581 --> 00:29:54,209
It could be just you.
541
00:29:54,209 --> 00:29:57,212
When you finally won't listen, tell it
542
00:29:57,253 --> 00:30:00,131
to the church, what does that mean?
543
00:30:00,131 --> 00:30:02,717
Go and stand in front of a church
with a building,
544
00:30:02,717 --> 00:30:05,345
a building with a steeple on it
and talk to it.
545
00:30:05,345 --> 00:30:08,306
There was no church.
546
00:30:08,306 --> 00:30:09,140
Share it,
547
00:30:10,517 --> 00:30:12,936
and then make a call.
548
00:30:12,936 --> 00:30:15,939
You bind or you loose.
549
00:30:17,565 --> 00:30:20,568
And heaven will back you in that function.
550
00:30:20,568 --> 00:30:24,364
Not, ask Heaven,
what's the rule here and we'll apply it.
551
00:30:24,531 --> 00:30:28,243
No use your brain that was given by God.
552
00:30:29,118 --> 00:30:30,829
That's radical.
553
00:30:30,829 --> 00:30:34,916
We wouldn't have been born
if they hadn't seen that point that go by.
554
00:30:34,916 --> 00:30:38,169
Matthew 18 now Jesus
555
00:30:38,169 --> 00:30:41,172
didn't say, you will always get it right.
556
00:30:41,422 --> 00:30:43,216
He didn't say that.
557
00:30:43,216 --> 00:30:45,468
He said, bind or loose.
558
00:30:45,468 --> 00:30:48,471
I grew up in a culture
that did nothing but bind.
559
00:30:48,638 --> 00:30:51,641
Now I'm living in one
that does nothing but loose.
560
00:30:52,350 --> 00:30:54,686
I want to live in a fellowship
561
00:30:54,686 --> 00:30:59,399
that, when it comes to the Lord's
table, declares that it is at peace.
562
00:30:59,399 --> 00:31:02,360
It's not just between me and Jesus.
563
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,114
That is the original concept,
the supper of unity.
564
00:31:06,114 --> 00:31:08,074
Conrad Grebel said.
565
00:31:08,074 --> 00:31:11,202
Now use the analogy of a baseball game.
566
00:31:12,370 --> 00:31:13,496
Supposing you want to
567
00:31:13,496 --> 00:31:16,666
like these modern Christians
who said, I gotta go by my feelings?
568
00:31:17,417 --> 00:31:19,794
Supposing you had three strikes
569
00:31:19,794 --> 00:31:22,922
and you say, I'm sorry,
I need 4 or 5 strikes.
570
00:31:22,922 --> 00:31:25,341
Thank you.
571
00:31:25,341 --> 00:31:27,218
Yeah, it wouldn't be baseball.
572
00:31:27,218 --> 00:31:29,596
It’d be batty up or
573
00:31:29,596 --> 00:31:32,181
just plain fooling around.
574
00:31:32,181 --> 00:31:35,476
Well,the ump got that call wrong.
575
00:31:35,476 --> 00:31:37,145
Well maybe he did.
576
00:31:37,145 --> 00:31:39,939
But without the ump
you don't have baseball.
577
00:31:39,939 --> 00:31:43,943
And without binding and loosing
you don't have Jesus's plan.
578
00:31:44,944 --> 00:31:47,280
And that's about relationship.
579
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,158
He's not lecturing them on his genealogy.
580
00:31:50,158 --> 00:31:54,954
Back to David
or whether Mary his mother was a virgin,
581
00:31:55,288 --> 00:31:58,207
which is, I don't deny, but by the way.
582
00:31:58,207 --> 00:32:00,710
But it but not that isn't the point.
583
00:32:00,710 --> 00:32:04,047
Use the word to form a fellowship
584
00:32:04,464 --> 00:32:07,675
in which you are responsible
and which you are.
585
00:32:07,884 --> 00:32:11,179
You take the responsibility
of binding and loosing
586
00:32:11,763 --> 00:32:14,766
and asking God for help and God will help,
587
00:32:15,099 --> 00:32:17,977
but there's no promise
you will always get it right
588
00:32:17,977 --> 00:32:20,980
because Conrad himself
didn't get some things right.
589
00:32:21,314 --> 00:32:23,566
But without the
ump, you don't have baseball.
590
00:32:24,901 --> 00:32:27,320
all I'm saying
is that the more I thought about Conrad
591
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,532
Grebel's letter, this logic,
it got Ahold of me.
592
00:32:33,076 --> 00:32:34,911
This is incredible. So. Okay.
593
00:32:34,911 --> 00:32:38,039
So I would when I was reading your book
there's a, there's a part
594
00:32:38,790 --> 00:32:42,335
at the front that I'd underlined
and maybe you could respond to this,
595
00:32:42,335 --> 00:32:45,338
but this kind of stuck out to me.
596
00:32:45,630 --> 00:32:47,924
Names are less important than influences.
597
00:32:47,924 --> 00:32:50,843
And the remarkable fact in regard
to Conrad Grebel
598
00:32:50,843 --> 00:32:55,348
is that most of his ideas,
which seemed so radical in the 1520s,
599
00:32:55,348 --> 00:32:59,352
appear to be passed into the living
tradition of many Mennonite communities
600
00:32:59,352 --> 00:33:04,482
in America, though with a distinctly
quietest coloration I didn't.
601
00:33:04,899 --> 00:33:07,652
Again, I don't understand
all the historical context, right?
602
00:33:07,652 --> 00:33:11,531
So I'm still learning a lot of this,
but you're tracing such,
603
00:33:12,115 --> 00:33:14,951
a direct parallel along the lines
from what he did
604
00:33:14,951 --> 00:33:16,244
and even some of the stuff
605
00:33:16,244 --> 00:33:20,289
you're saying where he was, say, you know,
going to the word using the word.
606
00:33:20,623 --> 00:33:23,376
And out of that were forming the church.
607
00:33:23,376 --> 00:33:26,379
These were really radical ideas
at the time.
608
00:33:26,963 --> 00:33:28,339
I don't know.
Do you want to respond to that?
609
00:33:28,339 --> 00:33:31,926
Do you want to add more
about how the ideas that Conrad Grebel
610
00:33:32,385 --> 00:33:36,639
starts with and how that chain progresses
on down to us today?
611
00:33:37,890 --> 00:33:40,852
those ideas have formed a fellowship
612
00:33:40,852 --> 00:33:44,313
in which those who remain responsible,
613
00:33:46,149 --> 00:33:47,608
stay with it.
614
00:33:47,608 --> 00:33:49,193
So some of the radicalism.
615
00:33:49,193 --> 00:33:53,364
But they're quietest and they,
they pull out of the world around them.
616
00:33:53,364 --> 00:33:57,493
And and I'm not saying that's bad,
but I'm saying that that's
617
00:33:58,244 --> 00:34:02,498
they have some radical ideas at the core,
even though they're quiet.
618
00:34:02,832 --> 00:34:03,958
The Amish do.
619
00:34:03,958 --> 00:34:05,251
But yes.
620
00:34:05,251 --> 00:34:09,714
And I think that's a piece that's easy
to forget is how radical all this started.
621
00:34:09,797 --> 00:34:13,885
Like you keep mentioning like they tried
to they killed some of these people.
622
00:34:13,885 --> 00:34:17,847
They put they put Conrad Grebel
in a dungeon like this,
623
00:34:17,847 --> 00:34:20,892
apparently was really upsetting
to society.
624
00:34:20,892 --> 00:34:23,019
Right. And Yeah.
625
00:34:23,019 --> 00:34:27,648
To Ulrich Zwingli’s, in fact,
Ulrich Zwingli pulled strings
626
00:34:28,149 --> 00:34:31,152
to get Conrad Grebel's father beheaded.
627
00:34:32,403 --> 00:34:37,533
He this great reformer and Ulrich Zwingli
fought the Catholics
628
00:34:37,533 --> 00:34:42,455
and said we must fight the Catholics
and led two times
629
00:34:42,997 --> 00:34:46,167
the Protestant forces of Zurich
630
00:34:46,501 --> 00:34:49,253
against the Catholics,
631
00:34:50,671 --> 00:34:51,923
just to the south.
632
00:34:51,923 --> 00:34:54,217
And the second time in the battle,
633
00:34:54,217 --> 00:34:57,220
the Catholics caught Zwingli
and cut him in four pieces.
634
00:34:58,179 --> 00:34:59,680
So this is his heritage.
635
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,892
So, wow, that story ends not well.
636
00:35:03,601 --> 00:35:04,227
No, not.
637
00:35:04,227 --> 00:35:07,772
And when you go to Zurich,
near the grossmunster,
638
00:35:07,772 --> 00:35:12,151
you see the statue of Zwingli
holding a Bible and a sword.
639
00:35:12,610 --> 00:35:15,571
I was going to say you
that's in the book I think isn't it.
640
00:35:16,030 --> 00:35:18,574
Oh, every tourist that goes to Zurich
sees that.
641
00:35:18,574 --> 00:35:20,701
But you, you end
642
00:35:20,701 --> 00:35:23,621
and again I haven't I have to be honest,
I haven't read every word.
643
00:35:23,621 --> 00:35:23,788
Right.
644
00:35:23,788 --> 00:35:26,666
Because I this just came from Amazon
right before this interview.
645
00:35:26,666 --> 00:35:27,125
Right.
646
00:35:27,125 --> 00:35:30,878
So but, you end your book
with the picture of Zwingli
647
00:35:30,878 --> 00:35:34,674
there with the, with the word
or like the Bible and the sword.
648
00:35:35,341 --> 00:35:39,220
But then you make a point that, you know,
there's no statue of Conrad Grebel.
649
00:35:40,012 --> 00:35:43,015
And the contrast between those two.
650
00:35:43,015 --> 00:35:44,142
Do you want to speak into that?
651
00:35:44,142 --> 00:35:47,145
Maybe, maybe explain a bit more of what
and what you're referring to there?
652
00:35:47,436 --> 00:35:50,022
Well, as an imprint in my heart.
653
00:35:50,022 --> 00:35:52,233
And there is a people
654
00:35:53,651 --> 00:35:55,403
that flowed forth
655
00:35:55,403 --> 00:35:58,489
from that historic crossing of a line.
656
00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:03,494
Had they not been, had
they were willing to pay taxes
657
00:36:03,786 --> 00:36:08,624
but not fight, because with killing is...
658
00:36:09,083 --> 00:36:10,793
no killing!
659
00:36:10,793 --> 00:36:14,839
And he says that in passing
he doesn't even have to argue for it.
660
00:36:14,839 --> 00:36:17,550
He says, by the way, Thomas, you know,
661
00:36:17,550 --> 00:36:20,553
I hope you're not using the sword
because that doesn't work.
662
00:36:21,137 --> 00:36:24,056
But but when we didn't see that
663
00:36:24,056 --> 00:36:28,102
this greater leader, these great Calvin
didn't see it, Luther didn't see it.
664
00:36:29,187 --> 00:36:32,440
See, but we are a minority.
665
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:37,904
And by the way, many people don't realize
I say this not so much as a historian,
666
00:36:37,904 --> 00:36:41,324
as a as an amateur who looks at certain
667
00:36:41,449 --> 00:36:44,452
factors and, and thinks about them.
668
00:36:44,744 --> 00:36:47,788
There was a bigger group of
Anabaptists who would fight.
669
00:36:49,332 --> 00:36:51,167
They were called...
670
00:36:51,167 --> 00:36:54,170
that is, would carry the sword.
671
00:36:54,795 --> 00:36:58,591
Only the minority group,
minority group were the...
672
00:36:58,716 --> 00:37:00,593
who would only carry a staff.
673
00:37:00,593 --> 00:37:04,180
You could keep an animal away,
you know, like that, but not kill
674
00:37:04,430 --> 00:37:07,308
with a sword you could kill. The...
675
00:37:07,308 --> 00:37:10,186
were thousands more than the...
676
00:37:10,186 --> 00:37:13,147
But the... died out quick.
677
00:37:13,314 --> 00:37:16,984
The Stabler included
people at the branch of the Hutterites
678
00:37:17,026 --> 00:37:19,987
who were also totally pacifist.
679
00:37:19,987 --> 00:37:22,990
And at the point that you give up
680
00:37:23,491 --> 00:37:26,494
and see people think,
681
00:37:26,702 --> 00:37:29,497
they, they tend there's the phenomenon
682
00:37:29,497 --> 00:37:34,293
in the 20th, 19th, 20th and 21st
century of people who leave the Mennonites
683
00:37:34,752 --> 00:37:39,257
because they want to be more evangelical,
and then they get fuzzy on this other,
684
00:37:39,257 --> 00:37:42,218
which is the thing
that birthed us to start with.
685
00:37:42,635 --> 00:37:46,430
They want to get fuzzy on that
and then be ambivalent.
686
00:37:47,181 --> 00:37:50,476
But when you get ambivalent on that,
then you're no longer
687
00:37:50,476 --> 00:37:53,479
rooted in this historical moment
and movement.
688
00:37:54,272 --> 00:37:56,565
There's no statue for Conrad Grebel.
689
00:37:56,565 --> 00:37:57,650
Right?
690
00:37:57,650 --> 00:38:00,319
So what? Conrad Grebel never wrote a book.
691
00:38:01,904 --> 00:38:04,865
He had the ability to write.
692
00:38:04,865 --> 00:38:07,535
He never wrote a book, but he
693
00:38:07,535 --> 00:38:10,538
he had a list of scriptures
694
00:38:10,746 --> 00:38:13,416
that he thought people should read
695
00:38:13,416 --> 00:38:15,710
that way, and he never published it,
696
00:38:15,710 --> 00:38:18,963
but somebody got a hold of it and got it
printed.
697
00:38:18,963 --> 00:38:21,257
Just the list.
698
00:38:21,257 --> 00:38:23,884
And for getting that list printed,
699
00:38:23,884 --> 00:38:27,847
the Catholics burnt this man to death
that did that.
700
00:38:28,472 --> 00:38:31,892
That was not the Protestants of Zurich,
but the Catholics.
701
00:38:32,226 --> 00:38:34,228
Whoa. Why?
702
00:38:34,228 --> 00:38:39,233
Because they he put out that list of
scriptures recommended by Conrad Grebel.
703
00:38:39,233 --> 00:38:40,526
It was just a list.
704
00:38:40,526 --> 00:38:44,530
And I guess that was just so controversial
that had.
705
00:38:45,281 --> 00:38:46,407
That's hard.
706
00:38:46,407 --> 00:38:48,617
See, we're here in the 21st
century, right?
707
00:38:48,617 --> 00:38:50,745
It's just hard to get our heads around.
708
00:38:50,745 --> 00:38:51,537
Like how?
709
00:38:51,537 --> 00:38:53,664
Like now we're like, what's the big deal?
710
00:38:53,664 --> 00:38:56,500
But back then,
I guess that was just so radical.
711
00:38:56,500 --> 00:39:00,671
Well, you're giving a common person
the right to read the scripture.
712
00:39:00,671 --> 00:39:01,922
They're not prepared to read it.
713
00:39:01,922 --> 00:39:04,550
Don't let them read it. We’ll
explain it from the pulpit.
714
00:39:06,135 --> 00:39:09,889
But here's
the important point on that list.
715
00:39:10,097 --> 00:39:13,976
That's all we have from him and
these many letters to his brother in law.
716
00:39:14,769 --> 00:39:15,436
Guess what?
717
00:39:15,436 --> 00:39:19,315
The first verse
that he read, the first passage
718
00:39:19,315 --> 00:39:22,485
that he asked you to read,
719
00:39:23,486 --> 00:39:26,489
I mean I would have no idea.
720
00:39:26,489 --> 00:39:29,492
John 3:16 Really.
721
00:39:30,242 --> 00:39:30,659
That's it.
722
00:39:30,659 --> 00:39:33,662
That's something. Wow.
723
00:39:34,163 --> 00:39:36,957
God is love.
724
00:39:36,957 --> 00:39:39,960
Conrad Grebel said where's the love?
725
00:39:40,669 --> 00:39:43,672
What what is it
that makes us brothers and sisters.
726
00:39:43,881 --> 00:39:45,216
What is the good news.
727
00:39:45,216 --> 00:39:48,177
But reconciliation.
728
00:39:49,303 --> 00:39:51,722
It's not a total explanation
729
00:39:51,722 --> 00:39:54,725
of all the conundrums
in the Old Testament.
730
00:39:54,934 --> 00:39:59,647
Surely, use Old Testament like Jesus did,
look what He pulled out.
731
00:39:59,939 --> 00:40:02,608
Did he pull out of it the sword?
732
00:40:02,608 --> 00:40:05,778
He said, they that take
the sword shall perish with the sword.
733
00:40:06,237 --> 00:40:08,406
He said, Peter, he said,
734
00:40:09,573 --> 00:40:11,158
oh. You
735
00:40:11,158 --> 00:40:14,286
have heard, Sure you've heard
it said an eye for an eye.
736
00:40:14,286 --> 00:40:16,747
And that was an improvement for then.
737
00:40:16,747 --> 00:40:19,375
But I say unto you, love your enemy,
738
00:40:19,375 --> 00:40:23,838
do good to them that hate you,
and would despitefully use you.
739
00:40:24,004 --> 00:40:27,007
That is revolutionary.
740
00:40:27,091 --> 00:40:30,636
And the Anabaptist, Conrad Grebel’s
wing of the Anabaptists
741
00:40:31,053 --> 00:40:33,722
took it that,
742
00:40:33,722 --> 00:40:36,725
I live
because the people was formed out of that.
743
00:40:37,977 --> 00:40:42,314
When I track the stream of my life
back to it,
744
00:40:42,898 --> 00:40:45,901
that marker in history, I find,
745
00:40:47,278 --> 00:40:50,281
I find myself in that,
746
00:40:50,489 --> 00:40:53,033
And that's so easy to forget.
747
00:40:53,033 --> 00:40:54,785
I heard someone say
748
00:40:54,785 --> 00:40:58,664
I wish I remember where I read this
but history is like the prolog.
749
00:40:58,664 --> 00:41:03,002
You know the like if you don't understand
where we got like where it came from,
750
00:41:03,210 --> 00:41:04,628
how are you going to understand
the rest of the book?
751
00:41:04,628 --> 00:41:06,672
It's like the the prologue to a book.
752
00:41:07,715 --> 00:41:08,883
And it's,
753
00:41:08,883 --> 00:41:11,886
it seems like our people,
the anabaptist people today
754
00:41:12,803 --> 00:41:15,222
don't really understand
our, our story very well.
755
00:41:15,222 --> 00:41:17,308
Or at least that's
maybe that's just my own experience.
756
00:41:17,308 --> 00:41:19,477
But there's a lot that I don't understand.
757
00:41:19,477 --> 00:41:21,520
Like, even a lot of what you're telling me
is, like what?
758
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:22,897
I haven't heard this before.
759
00:41:22,897 --> 00:41:24,607
You know, I don't know this story.
760
00:41:24,607 --> 00:41:29,820
was just the, response to the curiosity
of of why, how did this start?
761
00:41:29,820 --> 00:41:31,780
Or, what what did it mean?
762
00:41:31,780 --> 00:41:35,701
And and then I found
it was relevant for the 21st century
763
00:41:35,910 --> 00:41:40,206
because now we have chaos again,
and we have to bind and loose.
764
00:41:40,206 --> 00:41:43,959
And how and the church tends
to split over it and,
765
00:41:46,587 --> 00:41:48,881
the church doesn't get everything right.
766
00:41:48,881 --> 00:41:51,884
Yeah, but Jesus didn't say that it would.
767
00:41:52,259 --> 00:41:53,636
But he said you should.
768
00:41:53,636 --> 00:41:55,846
You should do that function. And
769
00:41:56,847 --> 00:41:57,473
I live
770
00:41:57,473 --> 00:42:01,435
in a in a state of the Mennonite church,
which is in free fall.
771
00:42:01,602 --> 00:42:03,562
Everybody does
what's right in their own eyes.
772
00:42:03,562 --> 00:42:06,273
They go to communion because,
773
00:42:06,273 --> 00:42:09,193
they have communion oftener than others
and they don't have council
774
00:42:09,193 --> 00:42:10,444
meeting anymore.
775
00:42:10,444 --> 00:42:13,239
In 1843, a,
776
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,574
a Lancaster Mennonite bishop said,
777
00:42:15,574 --> 00:42:19,495
you never have communion
without the preparatory service.
778
00:42:19,954 --> 00:42:22,373
And that's what I believe in my heart.
779
00:42:22,373 --> 00:42:24,667
But, our church doesn't practice it.
780
00:42:24,667 --> 00:42:27,336
But I'm not going to walk away
from our church.
781
00:42:27,336 --> 00:42:28,796
I'm going to be there and help.
782
00:42:28,796 --> 00:42:32,049
I'm not going to form,
one more Mennonite split group.
783
00:42:32,299 --> 00:42:35,135
Or Amish group.
There's dozens already here.
784
00:42:35,135 --> 00:42:39,014
So Jesus said, by this shall all men know
that you are my disciples?
785
00:42:39,223 --> 00:42:42,893
If you split faithfully
when you come to a new, issue.
786
00:42:43,602 --> 00:42:47,022
So we've had Chester Weaver
on this podcast.
787
00:42:47,189 --> 00:42:49,525
Do you know, Chester? Yeah.
788
00:42:49,525 --> 00:42:52,403
So I messaged him and said, hey,
789
00:42:52,403 --> 00:42:55,406
we're going to be talking to
John Ruth, and,
790
00:42:55,614 --> 00:42:58,826
what, you know, is there anything specific
you'd like me to ask you?
791
00:42:59,034 --> 00:43:00,703
And he sent me a question.
792
00:43:00,703 --> 00:43:04,957
How can we stimulate more interest
in Anabaptist history among our people?
793
00:43:05,749 --> 00:43:08,919
He wanted me to ask you that, and I agree,
I have the same question.
794
00:43:09,503 --> 00:43:12,006
Because, again,
speaking from my own experience,
795
00:43:12,006 --> 00:43:13,507
because I don't know what
everybody else experiences,
796
00:43:14,633 --> 00:43:17,553
I feel incredibly ignorant of our story.
797
00:43:17,553 --> 00:43:22,850
And, I'm starting to realize
that I have lost a significant piece.
798
00:43:22,891 --> 00:43:26,020
So how can we generate more interest
in our
799
00:43:26,061 --> 00:43:28,147
in our story among among our people?
800
00:43:28,147 --> 00:43:31,317
Okay, hold that question in a moment
when I make a comment.
801
00:43:31,442 --> 00:43:31,859
Yeah.
802
00:43:31,859 --> 00:43:35,863
Scholars have not forgotten they are, but
803
00:43:36,322 --> 00:43:40,284
scholars are more intrigued with the,
804
00:43:42,369 --> 00:43:43,704
paradoxes
805
00:43:43,704 --> 00:43:47,666
and the failure to live up to
what the Anabaptists said
806
00:43:47,833 --> 00:43:52,504
than they are in the kind of message
I just told you that inspires me there.
807
00:43:52,713 --> 00:43:54,506
And and they're they're right.
808
00:43:54,506 --> 00:43:57,343
They give us true accounts.
809
00:43:57,343 --> 00:44:00,638
See, even Menno ten years
later up in the Netherlands.
810
00:44:02,264 --> 00:44:04,683
He said much the same as Conrad.
811
00:44:04,683 --> 00:44:07,686
True Christians don't go to war
and all that kind of thing.
812
00:44:07,853 --> 00:44:09,605
But they had many splits there,
813
00:44:11,357 --> 00:44:13,776
among the Anabaptists of Holland
814
00:44:13,776 --> 00:44:16,362
and, and Menno said one time
815
00:44:16,362 --> 00:44:19,323
he's quoted saying, he was a cripple.
816
00:44:19,865 --> 00:44:22,660
He said, I would jump with joy
on my crutch
817
00:44:22,660 --> 00:44:24,995
if our people would not split.
818
00:44:24,995 --> 00:44:27,665
really. I didn't know he said that. Okay.
819
00:44:27,665 --> 00:44:29,917
If they can only get along together.
820
00:44:29,917 --> 00:44:33,420
And that's one of the one of the things
that I don't have solved.
821
00:44:33,420 --> 00:44:37,257
The very thing that so enthusiases me,
822
00:44:38,300 --> 00:44:40,844
historically produced split after split
823
00:44:40,844 --> 00:44:43,806
after split after split.
824
00:44:44,765 --> 00:44:48,185
And you don't have in Lancaster
County itself, you can have,
825
00:44:48,519 --> 00:44:54,149
you know, 15, 18 varieties
and then along come the charismatics.
826
00:44:54,149 --> 00:44:57,653
And then they have their split
and and they split and split.
827
00:44:57,861 --> 00:45:00,864
And so one of the interesting things
828
00:45:00,864 --> 00:45:04,034
that I have to
live with and can’t solve is,
829
00:45:04,993 --> 00:45:06,662
why why
830
00:45:06,662 --> 00:45:10,082
am I so taken with Conrad's vision,
831
00:45:10,708 --> 00:45:13,711
when in actuality,
832
00:45:14,128 --> 00:45:16,797
the group that,
833
00:45:16,797 --> 00:45:20,592
I, covenant with can't stay together.
834
00:45:22,052 --> 00:45:24,763
And what is the world had think of a group
835
00:45:24,763 --> 00:45:27,766
that can't stay together that shows.
836
00:45:28,434 --> 00:45:29,685
Can't we learn...
837
00:45:29,685 --> 00:45:31,895
Now I admire the Amish.
838
00:45:31,895 --> 00:45:34,857
I have soul fellowship with the old Order
Amish.
839
00:45:35,524 --> 00:45:38,068
I need, but because it
840
00:45:38,068 --> 00:45:41,071
where I come from, everybody does
what's right in their own eyes.
841
00:45:41,488 --> 00:45:44,074
And they don't want to hear anything
about discipline.
842
00:45:44,074 --> 00:45:45,826
They won't let you finish your sentence.
843
00:45:45,826 --> 00:45:47,494
If you start talking about it.
844
00:45:47,494 --> 00:45:51,540
They get offended and bless their hearts
I love them and they're my people,
845
00:45:52,082 --> 00:45:54,918
but it's not where my soul is.
846
00:45:54,918 --> 00:45:56,879
Now back to your...
847
00:45:56,879 --> 00:46:00,048
how can we get people interested
more interested.
848
00:46:01,341 --> 00:46:03,135
One answer would be I think,
849
00:46:04,136 --> 00:46:06,889
what you're doing in this,
850
00:46:06,889 --> 00:46:09,558
is, what do you call, podcast?
851
00:46:09,558 --> 00:46:10,934
Yeah, podcast.
852
00:46:10,934 --> 00:46:13,937
It's an effort just like,
853
00:46:14,897 --> 00:46:18,108
the Anabaptists got together
and talked back then.
854
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:19,109
It's an effort.
855
00:46:19,109 --> 00:46:22,196
And your
in the technological terms of our moment.
856
00:46:22,946 --> 00:46:25,407
So I commend you for that.
857
00:46:25,407 --> 00:46:30,078
And remember
Jesus said that the way of the kingdom
858
00:46:30,078 --> 00:46:33,540
is not going to be
a popularly endorsed message.
859
00:46:34,500 --> 00:46:36,752
This is true.
860
00:46:36,752 --> 00:46:39,755
And that's tough to live with,
but it's the truth.
861
00:46:40,255 --> 00:46:42,966
You sow the seed and a lot of it falls.
862
00:46:42,966 --> 00:46:44,968
It doesn't even germinate.
863
00:46:44,968 --> 00:46:47,763
Some germinates and flares out.
864
00:46:47,763 --> 00:46:51,600
Some the birds peck away,
some is misinterpreted.
865
00:46:52,434 --> 00:46:55,437
But he said where it lands and takes root,
866
00:46:56,063 --> 00:46:57,064
it springs up.
867
00:46:57,064 --> 00:46:59,733
And I see
868
00:46:59,733 --> 00:47:03,487
in my congregation, in my community,
869
00:47:04,279 --> 00:47:07,741
I see people attracted to what I know
870
00:47:07,741 --> 00:47:11,161
is at the heart
of our Anabaptist seriousness,
871
00:47:11,787 --> 00:47:14,915
even when they see it only as a remnant
872
00:47:15,207 --> 00:47:18,168
in a middle class comfort,
873
00:47:18,168 --> 00:47:22,422
salvation, a personal, salvation
oriented, fellowship.
874
00:47:22,422 --> 00:47:27,719
They sense, like the bee
that gets a pheromone into the,
875
00:47:28,303 --> 00:47:30,472
blossom and gets, nectar.
876
00:47:30,472 --> 00:47:32,307
They sense it with something.
877
00:47:32,307 --> 00:47:34,268
There's a frequency there.
878
00:47:34,268 --> 00:47:36,478
Something hums inside you.
879
00:47:36,478 --> 00:47:38,438
when it hears that.
880
00:47:38,438 --> 00:47:41,650
And there is something like that
in the Anabaptist story
881
00:47:41,984 --> 00:47:43,527
and in the Anabaptist vision,
882
00:47:45,487 --> 00:47:47,364
and and it'll
883
00:47:47,364 --> 00:47:51,702
be popular and it'll flare up with certain
people will get all excited about it.
884
00:47:52,494 --> 00:47:54,371
And last at least five years, you know,
885
00:47:54,371 --> 00:47:57,374
and then they'll go back
and be conventional again.
886
00:47:58,292 --> 00:48:01,295
So and this this this has been incredible.
887
00:48:02,421 --> 00:48:07,009
I feel like I've learned a lot about
particularly the story of Conrad Grebel,
888
00:48:07,009 --> 00:48:10,345
but also just in general
like where our people have come from.
889
00:48:11,096 --> 00:48:15,642
The roots, I guess you could say,
of the Anabaptists, as we kind of
890
00:48:16,268 --> 00:48:19,146
tie the ribbons on this package
to what you've been presenting.
891
00:48:19,146 --> 00:48:22,149
Is there anything in particular
you'd like to leave our audience?
892
00:48:23,442 --> 00:48:26,445
Well, if your audience can go on YouTube,
893
00:48:27,237 --> 00:48:30,490
see if you can find the funeral sermon
894
00:48:30,490 --> 00:48:34,286
for Harley Wagler of Partridge, Kansas,
895
00:48:35,913 --> 00:48:36,747
a bachelor
896
00:48:37,706 --> 00:48:38,290
who taught
897
00:48:38,290 --> 00:48:42,002
himself Russian literature
and was teaching Pushkin
898
00:48:42,502 --> 00:48:45,422
under Putin and was shocked by Putin.
899
00:48:45,422 --> 00:48:48,133
But they loved him over in...
900
00:48:48,133 --> 00:48:50,427
I think it is.
901
00:48:50,427 --> 00:48:53,055
He went to University of Pennsylvania,
902
00:48:53,055 --> 00:48:56,058
humble Amish,
903
00:48:56,391 --> 00:48:58,393
He when his parents
904
00:48:58,393 --> 00:49:01,396
went Beachy, and drove off in the car,
905
00:49:01,730 --> 00:49:05,150
they saw him going off to the Old Order
Amish church
906
00:49:05,150 --> 00:49:08,153
he had on their horse and buggy,
but then he became Beachy to then.
907
00:49:08,695 --> 00:49:11,782
But listen to the tenor of that sermon.
908
00:49:12,866 --> 00:49:16,244
I don't have the, the data
right in front of me
909
00:49:16,244 --> 00:49:20,123
now, but I felt listening
to the right thing there.
910
00:49:22,042 --> 00:49:23,001
And that was.
911
00:49:23,001 --> 00:49:26,338
I would have never heard that without
modern media, without the internet.
912
00:49:26,630 --> 00:49:30,092
And new things will happen as information,
913
00:49:31,259 --> 00:49:34,471
flows in different patterns
now, new things will happen.
914
00:49:34,763 --> 00:49:36,390
That's my hope.
915
00:49:36,390 --> 00:49:40,143
And in the meantime, I'm prepared
for any kind of disappointment.
916
00:49:42,771 --> 00:49:44,147
Wow. Mr.
917
00:49:44,147 --> 00:49:47,150
Ruth thank you so much for sharing
918
00:49:47,567 --> 00:49:50,153
what you've learned with us.
919
00:49:50,153 --> 00:49:53,156
You bring a lot of decades of experience
920
00:49:53,198 --> 00:49:57,661
to the table, and it has been a true honor
to do this interview with you.
921
00:49:58,203 --> 00:50:00,455
As I was supposed
one piece to leave with people.
922
00:50:00,455 --> 00:50:03,291
Is your book. Even though it was 50 years
ago, it's still in print.
923
00:50:03,291 --> 00:50:06,378
You can go on Amazon right now and buy it,
and I'd recommend people do that.
924
00:50:06,420 --> 00:50:07,879
I found it fascinating.
925
00:50:07,879 --> 00:50:10,298
Actually, like you had said
this is the original first edition,
926
00:50:10,298 --> 00:50:14,219
which is quite interesting
to see and learn.
927
00:50:14,219 --> 00:50:17,347
The it feels like the real piece
here is learn
928
00:50:17,347 --> 00:50:20,434
the story of of where this came from.
929
00:50:20,434 --> 00:50:22,853
And I feel like there's a lot
that I have to learn.
930
00:50:22,853 --> 00:50:24,104
And and you've helped me with that
931
00:50:24,104 --> 00:50:27,607
this evening and I appreciate that,
You know, one little comment.
932
00:50:27,858 --> 00:50:32,738
It was a historical accident
that when they wanted to get pictures
933
00:50:32,738 --> 00:50:36,241
of Manz, Blaurock, imaginative pictures,
934
00:50:36,742 --> 00:50:39,870
somehow I got swept into posing for them.
935
00:50:40,537 --> 00:50:43,123
And this is me, actually. No really.
936
00:50:46,209 --> 00:50:49,212
Maybe
that's maybe that's all it amounts to.
937
00:50:50,172 --> 00:50:52,257
Wow. Well thank you
so much for sharing this evening.
938
00:50:52,257 --> 00:50:53,717
I really appreciate this.
939
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,429
Thanks for listening to this episode
with John Ruth.
940
00:50:57,429 --> 00:50:59,931
If you found this interesting,
you might want to watch this episode
941
00:50:59,931 --> 00:51:04,978
we did with John Roth, who explains some
of the beginnings of early anabaptism.
942
00:51:04,978 --> 00:51:07,981
And you can find that link down
in the description below.
943
00:51:07,981 --> 00:51:12,486
All our content is over on our website
at anabaptistperspectives.org,
944
00:51:12,486 --> 00:51:16,114
and you can also sign up to our monthly
email newsletter there as well.
945
00:51:16,531 --> 00:51:19,534
Thanks again for listening
and we'll see you in the next episode.