Good morning, Brian.

Happy 2024, we're

Woohoo. Here we go.

back.

We're back. And coming back, Brian, I want to, dive in strong to today's topic. we're going to later talk about how networks drive viewership in today's really complicated TV ecosystem with a fantastic guest. But first, I know you and I both love TV we like to talk about TV shows.

Yeah, who doesn't like to, watch more and more TV?

Exactly. And, you've given me some really good recommendations. I'd like to think I've given you some. I want to start today with a, Snap Decisions lightning round TV show edition.

All right, let's get in it.

Are you ready? Okay. This is going to be hard. These are really tough choices, in some cases. Just go as quick as you can. You ready? Cheers, or friends.

Cheers.

Right answer. Seinfeld or curb your enthusiasm?

Oh god.

Tough one. Come on. Cut. Knee

right, Seinfeld. Seinfeld.

despite this being a high judgment zone, we're not, no judgment because

I do love Curb as much as anybody, but, Seinfeld, just because I can put it on around everybody Curb, can't watch that around

Yeah. People get a little squeamish. Okay. The office or arrested development. Told you they're hard.

Arrested Development. But that's just as hard as the last

Ooh. Brutal. Brutal choice. South Park or the Simpsons.

Simpsons.

I agree. Homeland or the Americans?

Ooh. I'm gonna say Homeland, but, The Americans is pretty good too.

Again, these are like Sophie's Choice choices here. Stranger Things or Lost?

Stranger Things.

Last one. Hard one. Breaking Bad or Game of Thrones?

Breaking bad.

Okay. Yeah. I'm with you on that. All right. So, sorry to put you through the, the ringer there. That's tough. Yeah. And, and, and while I started off a little bit in, the way back machine there. Now we're in this golden age of TV, right? And it comes with gold level pricing.

Who does it ever?

Yeah. All right. So, uh, top of your head. Uh, it's tough to figure this out. I know, but how much do you think you pay each month for TV services? Yeah.

I probably pay, uh, about 150.

Okay. How many different packages do you think you've got in there for that 150?

Oh my God, I got, I got so many. I, uh, so my streamer is for regular television is YouTube TV. And then I have, um, And during, like, football season, I have an add on for, like, Red Zone, I have the Disney bundle, you know, Disney Hulu, ESPN That actually comes through my Verizon package, though, so I don't even pay for that. I would pay for that if I didn't, mostly because, my kids watch a lot of Disney I have Paramount Plus, and I have Netflix, obviously. Everybody has Netflix. Apple TV, which has had some good shows and has been a nice add on to Apple services. They've made that easy to jump on board with. I have, Max, you know, the old HBO.

All right. Let me you a different question. What packages don't, what packages don't you have?

I have Peacock, even

All

I don't know. It's a, it's a disease.

yeah. Okay. I'd say there's no way. You're at 150 bucks a month with all those services.

You think it's more?

I, I know it's more.

Well, I don't know. I mean, apple TV's less than $10 a month. Peacock's 5 99 a month. The Max HBO, platform, I paid annually and to get it down to about 10 or $12 a month, Amazon Prime, how much is the TV component of Amazon Prime? When you're really buying it for the ability to get packages faster.

So you're willing to rationalize some of these expenses as they're part of bundles. But all right, so I heard a lot of sources. I didn't catch the number. I think I'm around six sources plus a bunch of shared credentials, you know, from family members. I think around 120 bucks. Okay, I'm going to share some stats, Brian.

Okay.

of all, in terms of how much people actually spent, in the middle of last year, it came down a little bit to just under 171 per month, average, in the U. S. Okay, so think about average household income and think about 171 on average. And that's TiVo Video Trends Report. the number of video sources people use grew from an average of just under nine in 2020 and to 11. 6 at the end of 2022. Um, it came down just a little bit halfway through the last year, but it's still like, you know, people are around 10, 11 sources. I heard you kind of go past that and you're going down your list. income is a big factor. Households earning less than 80, 000 a year. Average 10 sources, but households earning 200, 000 or more average 14 sources.

Wow. Yeah, they've made it more and more complicated than that's for sure.

and expensive. Alright, so if, if the other number is accurate, 171 on TV, that leaves another hundred bucks on other subscriptions, like music, publications. Wow. Well, you know, yes, it is complicated, like you said, and all these kind of subscription video on demand services. This is, you know, clearly, I think the increasing price is why we're seeing the rise of these. Ad supported models, right?

Yeah.

We keep mentioning this idea that it's complicated. it's also complicated for the people who are trying to promote content. Which is why we're talking to our guest today. you're going to tackle one of the reasons it's getting complicated. I'm going to tackle the other. So, you were looking into how people find what they're looking for.

Okay, so, there's a 2023 LG ad solutions report. And, here's some real problems that, they found that's facing audiences looking for content. You know, 45 percent of consumers feel like there's simply too many options. You know, used to be, I want choice, but now there's too much choice. 40 percent say they don't know where to find the right shows.

Amen.

Yeah. And 33 percent say they don't have the right subscription. so

Except for you, who has every

my, my way of dealing with buy everything. And, you it's like the ultimate fear of missing out. One thing that I think that, the platforms have done really well to make. This new type of model work is they've created better content. So, Netflix has, really gone above and beyond just creating like content that's better than what you can get on regular cable TV. You know, Apple has done it, HBO has done it for years. So the one trend that I'm also seeing is that they are cutting back on creating new content and they're charging you more. So back Skimpflation,

Yes. They absolutely are. That's why it's a good thing. Netflix is, is really strong and others on kind of the recommendation algorithms to put something good in front of you because there's less there for you to go explore and discover

yeah, so I think you're going to start seeing more consolidation of these platforms, which would be great for my subscription models, uh, And you're already seeing some of it, like, uh, Disney is, uh, they're including navigation in their app for Hulu content. There's been a lot of talk about, Paramount and Max coming together and merging. so I think when we come back in the next year, you're going to see a completely different, landscape here.

Yeah. All right. I want to jump off of the example you just referenced about Hulu being promoted in Disney. Okay, so under this idea that the TV ecosystem is really complicated, I did some research and just six years ago, in 2018, 90 percent of a network's promotion time pushed content on their own channel, right? You're watching network A, they're pushing content that they have on that network at a different time. That's called on air promotion. Back then, six years ago, only 10 percent of that inventory was used for internal cross channel, which means promoting content on their sister channels, right? Last year, just five years later. Now it's a third of a network's promo time is dedicated to pushing something on a sister channel. And now if you're watching live TV, you've got, you've got programmers pushing content out of linear TV into a streaming platform, which used to be unheard of. And according to CMO intelligence, a really good resource. If you're watching TV on direct TV, that's just one example. It could be Xfinity, it could be Spectrum, it could be Fios, wherever you're getting your live TV. One out of every five. For a show, we're for a show on a competing network.

that's crazy

So, if you're responsible for building a network and promoting specific shows, what the hell do you do in this complicated ecosystem? So, on that note, Brian, I have a snap decision for you before we get to our guest.

Yeah,

As a TV aficionado, which I think you are, how important is a network brand? Are you picking content purely on a show by show basis or do you still have like some go to network brands that you turn to for discovery?

Well, I I think the main discovery places are the Streaming brands and not necessarily the network brands. I mean, I think the network brands still hold some cachet in trust. So if the television show, it's coming from a brand, I think that still carries weight, but I'm exploring it through a streaming brand. What about you?

A little bit all over the map, you know. I think word of mouth is still dominant for me. if it wasn't for sports, I probably would have no sense about new content coming on if it wasn't recommended to me by a friend or By, you know, a streaming service. to me, there's still some cachet to a network brand. Like, I hear someone say, there's this great new show on HBO. Like, I get that, right? Is now a good time to bring in an expert to help us talk about how she navigates this

Yeah. Expert slash therapist So let's get into it. As we talk about navigating today's ever evolving TV viewing habits, behaviors and media overall. We're excited to bring in a true expert in the space. This woman cut her teeth at ad agencies and the glory days of television and marketing supporting campaigns like the got milk, milk mustache ads and Lipton's that's brisk baby commercials. She's now at NBC universal where she's executive VP of consumer engagement and brand strategy for a collection of networks, including Bravo, USA sci fi. E and oxygen helping these brands position themselves in the lifestyle space. This includes keeping the thirsty bravaholics content with more and more real housewives franchises and finding new creative and innovative ways to build engagement. She is a real marketing trailblazer. She is Ellen Stone. Welcome to Snap Decisions.

Thank you for having me.

Ellen, we are thrilled. Brian, Brian's heard me gush about, uh, what a, what a fantastic, savvy marketer you are. And with such a fantastic, resume and list of accomplishments. We are, we are honored to have you here. So thank you so much for joining.

Thank you. Pleasure to be here.

All right. So, Brian and I talk all the time in our personal lives about, TV shows that we like and don't like and where to find them and more and more we find ourselves talking about the complexity of navigating today's media world, right? Where's that show? How do I watch it? What show? How'd you find about it? there are a few areas we'd love to hit on with you and the first is that very tricky area of, as a, as a marketer, you've got to build this overarching network brand for Bravo. Okay. And promote individual shows and presumably individual personalities. just, we want to hear about how you do it.

So, one of the things I will say is on Bravo and on all my networks, the programming department gives us such great storylines and such great, talent that personalities that come into our shows that marketing is a joy. Number one, it is hard, I'm not saying that, but we do have the content that people are searching out and we've been able to find that. So. I think we all know the basic elements of what we have to do. We have to really understand our audience. And at Bravo, we've got our Bravoholics, our fans, and they are rabid fans. We've kept this brand relatively tight so that they really do understand what they're getting when they come to a Bravo show. Because the storytelling is so authentic to our personalities. And what we do is enhance that we find the audiences who want that storytelling and we match them with different environments of where their behaviors are. So it's constantly looking for the new behavior. How do we reach them? Which gets harder and harder every day because you've got so many new opportunities and platforms. and it's also about motivating them to watch, right? So that's our social conversation. How do we make sure that we're authentic in the social conversation and the voice we're having? And one of the things that Bravo did early on, and in fact, he has done that. I'm also on USA and sci fi. And one of the properties is Chucky. You can't get a more authentic voice than Chucky. And we created the Chucky is real. So. social handle. And that is all about making sure that our voice is authentic. And also we're talking as friends. We're not talking to a fan because we are fans. Our social team knows that the brand is fans of the brand and fans of the show. And so we've changed how we speak. Over the years to make sure that all of the bravoholics and the Chucky fans and the live from E red carpet fans, they know that we are every bit in it with them as they are. We drive the conversations they want to hear, not the only the conversations that we want them to hear. There's a definite distinctive difference in how we're speaking and how that's evolved over time.

to me it sounds like the principles of marketing carry through no matter what you are, you just plug and play different tactics based off of what the audiences need and where they are, right?

Yeah, I mean the principle markings are core and haven't changed that much, but the tactics and the strategies and how you measure those tactics change every day. Because consumer behavior changes every day. So my main goal is to marry up a great product, or in my case, piece of content with an audience through an environment that works and finding those places for them to really get motivated to watch. And not only that, but my goal is to make them feel a part of the family, a part of the brand so that they become brand evangelists.

So how do you measure success?

there are, well, you know, it's the TV industry. I get measured every day with a rate, you know, a rate card. I've got my report card thrown at me and we try not to look at it every day because honestly, today you've got to cume your audience. So we try not to look at it because the day of the live same no longer tells you the story.

yeah. And when you say, Kim, your audience, I just, everyone understands like what you mean there is obviously there's a, there's the same day who watched it live a linear, but then you have a long trailing time period where people are watching on streaming platform on wherever. Right. And then you say you relating your audience

I'm assuming my audience, right? I'm looking at the audience. Live same, but I'm really looking at it live seven. I'll even go out to live 31 because if I don't know who's watching it, then I can't reach them again. we're looking at KPIs that are much longer in terms of the audience. We're also looking at the social conversation. And the social conversation is telling us whether it's positive or maybe slight, like, oh my God, but it's telling us what is it that they're feeling about these shows. And is it a love to hate? Is it a love to love? Is it a love to see what happens next? This is what I'm, I'm hearing from the social verse. And this is what I'm reacting to and pivoting to in real time.

So so pick up on that social verse. I want to ask you real quickly. You mentioned the idea of, you know, you measure the live audience plus seven days plus 31 days in that in that tail. Obviously, it drops off pretty quickly, right? But when you see

Well, it does and it doesn't, cause remember Bravo and some of our other shows are live our next day on Peacock. So Peacock has become critical. To the marketing. We work with them so tightly to make sure that it doesn't drop off like it used to in the linear world because that's not a world we live in anymore,

are you able to kind of stir the pot when you see stuff happening on social that's interesting you can kind of do you see a spike happening based on there's a social conversation that caught fire a week after and now you're seeing viewership pop up

absolutely. I mean, two really great examples. Three really great examples live in Bravo, but but also in other networks. So in Bravo, we had Vanderpump Rules and in season 10, we had a huge moment that took over pop culture. It just took over pop culture and that doesn't mean you wait and see, Oh, let's see how the conversation is going. That means that Peacock and Bravo got together immediately with press production. It was everyone and that's one of the wonderful things about NBCUniversal. The, the silos break down. Like we are all in it together on our shows. Comcast comes in and we all work together to say, what does. The audience needs, what do our bravoholics and potential perspective bravoholics need to get involved in the show? So for example when that moment happened At the end of season 10 the first thing that happened was we all got together, press, social brand production. Nobody did, cause we had to treat this with respect. These are talent that we know, that we love. We've had ten seasons with them, and we're friends with them. Our job was to make sure that our fans, our Bravo holics, had what they need to understand what was happening on the show. And as importantly, provide context for new potential Bravo holics to catch up and understand what was happening on the show so they can be a part of the Bravo verse. We did that with Peacock, we did that with Ketchup Dyes, we did that, did that with social media. Peacock, used their editorial. It was all these different ways of bringing fans into the current situation and the current storyline. And press was all about, you, you saw the Vanderpump Rules cast all over. So we had people, Lisa Vanderpump and Ariana, who are two members of the cast, they were at the White House Correspondents Dinner. You know, we saw the moment and we wanted to make sure that everyone could enjoy it as much as, as we could. And we're continuing. It's one of my favorite things. So last fall we had the ultimate consumer

Yeah, we want to know, we want to hear about BravoCon.

It's called Bravo Con. It's really big. And it was our third Bravo Con. And during that we had panels on Vanderpump because it's so, it was so popular and wanted them to talk to the producers and the talent and, and even people who weren't on the show, but other talent who loved the show. So it's this, it's this, um, it's this environment where you can just really, really dig deep into being in the Bravoverse. It was there. that we teased season 11. And since then, we haven't stopped. We've made sure that that pulse conversation kept going up until last week when we had a premier party for Vanderpump, which was actually the first time we opened up our premier parties to consumers. So they were able to get it by a ticket and come and actually enjoy the first episode prior to the live airing. of Vanderpump and it was, it was a great moment. It was such a great moment and we knew it would be a great moment that we actually used it to launch the valley, which is a show that comes out of Vanderpump. There were always looking for those opportunities in marketing. To help the next big thing. So during the Vanderpump right before that you, they were bated breath waiting to see, the premiere episode, we showed a tease for the valley and they saw many of the casts that were. older Vanderpump personalities in the new show, The Valley, and we were able to launch it. So what we try to do in marketing is look for those opportunities, surprise and delight, or straightforward to give the fans all the information they need to really enjoy what's happening on Bravo. Or USA or sci fi or whatever show that we're trying to promote.

the opportunities today are just, I mean, it's just endless and the ability to be able to do what you said and just either write it out and continue to talk about things or create a different show because of something that happened, it's wild.

And all these platforms you can push to, like, what you're talking about just now is like a classic. You created a tentpole event with BravoCon to tease the something that's coming out at the end of January. And then you've got the steady drum beat all leading up to a live linear premiere. That's not even the beginning, right? It's, it's all those places like Brian was just alluding to. All these different places and, and shows you can start promoting off of that in different places. It's complicated.

And, and, and all the different platforms you can use. So, um, back in last year, we e launched House of Villains. It was one of our best premieres on E. It was fantastic. It had great talent. It had great story. It's a competition show with these villains. It was great. We were able to utilize YouTube to help really push that. And, and this again, it's it's not the newest, tactic. But the way we did it strategically was a little different from others in that we had talent that was known. Because they were all villains on other shows. So we were able to grab other, IP from other areas on YouTube and bring them all and funnel them to House of Villains on YouTube, which helped us keep the sampling going and push them to the linear viewing. Because while we love YouTube, we really do want them to watch on the linear viewing, right? So, it was a great show and a great success. And again, I can't tell you how much, how important it is that the story itself is great, I really am incredibly blessed that the content that we're marketing is that strong.

Brian and I are always talking about the importance of a strong product, great marketing can only go so far. You've got to Right. We can get them there, but if, but it's, we need, we need them to stay there. And that is the amazing content that we have. So there's so many places we can keep diving in. But you just touched on the idea of IP. So the intellectual property, let's think about all these show brands. How do you decide when you're going to lean into a network brand, Bravo or Oxygen or whatever it is versus a show and what's the connection? How do you connect those things so that people understand this is a Bravo show?

Yeah. So first of all, we make sure that the architecture of the brand is pretty tight, you know, and we get, we are very careful in that framework that we put together for each and every brand and in communicating that framework across the entire. Organization. So that when people are developing any kind of asset, the show, whatever it is, there is, you know, there's a structure around it. So when you see a Bravo show, that storytelling is different from something you'll see on another network. That's number one, right? Then how we market it. We're very careful in making sure that we have a tight brand structure so that when you see Bravo marketing. You know immediately it's Bravo when you see a Chucky ad. And remember, Chucky has incredible IP from the movie

I don't know if you noticed Brian perk up when you mentioned Chucky, but heading into he had something he wanted to ask you about. So,

I love Chucky. That's a huge IP. And we had to make sure it was, it's so strong in the movie franchises. We had to make it a TV franchise. Right? And so we had to make sure that first of all, it's about USA and USA is about its characters. That's like, that's what the brand has been built on from characters. Welcome to the characters are here. And so Chucky became a character we used. We use the WWE, which, um, as a, as a launching pad. Also amazing characters, from Raw as a launching pad to bring the character out of Chucky, which was embedded in the very essence of USA. So everything we do has to be tied and closely associated to the brand because we've built that structure, that framework, that architecture. And everybody touching the brand should absolutely understand that architecture so that they have a checklist of what goes and what doesn't go. That isn't to say. that brands aren't alive. They are. We pivot. We stretch. We don't want to. It's not one thing. And sometimes when you hold too tight and you get too precious about your brand, you can, you can push away certain potential audiences. And that's, that's actually the potential downside of a brand. You don't want to get too tight, just like a person grows and changes. Your brand has to grow and change, but your core, your essence stays the saMe.

How do you organize and structure your team so that they can operate within the boundaries of the brand, but also be able to make quick, snappy decisions to keep moving things forward and also deal with the real time type of engagement stuff that

Right. So, um, first of all, the organization always changes because consumers change. So we've, we, we change up how we do things. We have, um, we have a whole team, a center of excellence on brand strategy and their purview is to go in and understand a, the brand and be the Um, sometimes the shows comes out first and then the brand comes second, but they write that strategy for us that then is communicated across marketing. And we also share it, of course, with production and press, um, so that everybody understands that we're all working towards this common goal. We have a brand team and a promotions team, and their job is to steward the brand and the show. And their job is to work with every department to make sure that we're collaborative. We are nothing if not collaborative. I, that is my number one thing. If you're, I drives me crazy. If people start going, Oh, this is my area. We don't like that because you never know where a good idea comes from and you don't care.

And is that structured along, like, uh, by a network brand or do you have people who work across network

We have people across the brands, across the brands.

and what, so you mentioned, you mentioned, uh, that you, you have responsibilities for USA and Sci Fi too, is that like, so you, you lead marketing teams for all of those? Networks.

Brand, yes, the consumer strategy teams and the brand strategy teams, the consumer engagement and brand strategy teams. Yes. For all of those. And so they all, the brand marketing group, they work across all of them. We also have a brand growth and monetization group. This is mainly right now with Bravo. We recognized how big Bravo Con was and some of our other. events or experiences. And we thought if we can actually make this, devoted team to this area, then we could, we could grow it and grow our audience as well. So we literally have pulled out a group. And we're we're looking at BravoCon as a model on how we can then create all of these other areas. So that's a brand new department that we hadn't had before.

So, so BravoCon you said was huge, um, I'd love to get a sense as to how big that was and I, I think you had it in New York, right?

Uh, the first two. This is our third one. So the first two were in New York. It started out. It started out small, about eight to 10, 000 people over the course of three days. The second one in New York was like around 25 plus to 30 in New York. And we just did in November, we moved it to Vegas.

Biggest.

No way.

Biggest

was, I was insane. I loved it. And, um, that was 25 to 25 plus over the course of three days.

And that, and that's become a whole new monetization opportunity, right? It's not just about driving audience engagement and show consumption. It's actually its, its own moneymaker, right? Anyone

right. When you, when you get a fan base, it's That is as invested like our Bravo holics and you have talent, our Bravo lebrities that are also fans and just invested. It's a perfect combination for bringing those two entities together in a, in a, and we created an environment that was wholly and purely Bravo. It was just, it's amazing. It was panels, but it was photo ops. It was a museum, a deconstructed museum where you saw moments throughout Bravo history, and you could actually insert yourself, you know, everything's an Instagram of a moment. So you could insert yourself into these incredible moments, or you could just watch them. And there are, and surprising delights, just talent because the talents love their fans and the talents are fans. So they would just walk around and all of a sudden you would just see. Bravo liberties in the wild. And it was brilliant. It was brilliant. Um, I can't remember which BravoCon it was, but we had people saying, you know, marriage, children, BravoCon, that was the order of importance. And so connecting is also a reason why this growth and monetization group, came to being because we knew it was core to the, to the framework, to the essence of, of Bravo. And so what better way to grow the brand than through connections and community. So again, everything comes back when you have a really strong framework.

Can you tell us a little bit about what it's like to have somebody like Andy Cohen, um, who's so magnetic and kind of a marketing machine on his own, as well as the other,

Quite the charmer.

Yeah. But like, I mean, I just feel like having somebody like that in your back pocket has got to be amazing.

it's not bad. It's not bad. So the greatest thing about Andy is that when I first started at Bravo, Andy was the head of production and he worked on the brand and he helped build the brand and he knows that brand like the back of his hand. Andy and the show that he helped create with Imbravo, Watch What Happens Live, became an opportunity for fans to really get a recap or an after show. Of what's happening on Bravo, and the brilliance of it is he married it with non Bravo celebrities, so it's not just about Bravo, it's about extending it across all the other places that you can through different celebrities, through different bartenders, which if you know the show, you'll know what I'm talking about,

Yeah, it's so clever. I mean, you watch these aftershows where, you know, the writers and the producers are talking. It feels very self congratulatory, but to have others involved in the conversation feels really authentic to

that's not what Watch What Happens Live is about. Watch What Happens Live is about is, again, it's Everyone talks as if they're a fan and a friend of the brand and that's why he's so great because And he is the ultimate fan. He really is he loves every show He watches all the shows and then he talks about them and he asks all the questions That everyone wants to know, not to mention, he asks for questions and he's, he never shies away. He probably does and I don't know, but it doesn't seem like he ever shies away from a hard question. He's such an open book, um, and he's really there for the brand. He really is.

Well, it helped craft it. So, yeah, like you said,

He did.

you couldn't

did. So that was probably one of the best parts about Andy is that he really knows everything and all the players from the get go. And he cares. He cares so deeply.

It's obvious you get really excited when you talk about the shows and the talent. It's cool to see, like, you, you've got an energy around it. Is, is there like a favorite promo or campaign that you've done to drive one of these things to new heights?

Um, I think I have a favorite. I mean, I love what we did with Vanderpump and how we, how we were able to really pivot and give our fans what they needed when such a big, um, cultural moment happened. I love that. That was, I was so proud of my team and everybody in the company. I, it was amazing. Um, I loved when Bravo decided to try scripted, not our usual fare. And we created, um, a huge campaign against the, the, the drama Dirty John and worked with Oxygen who did the reality version. Of Dirty John. That was amazing because both brands work together to make sure that that was one of the biggest scripted unscripted moments at the time. And you, and that was a priority across the entire NBCU enterprise, Yes, it was.

got promotion on all the other networks. Can you tell us about how that machine works? It's

So, we have Symphony, which is, what Steve Burke used to call our secret sauce. And that is an area that was developed by a former CMO at NBC, John Miller, NBCU I should say, John Miller. And now is headed up by Jenny Storms, who is the CMO of, entertainment and sports. And what she does is look at all the priorities across the company, whether it's movies, whether it's TV shows, whether it's Comcast, priorities, and she helps navigate how to utilize each brand's assets and, platforms to raise. the awareness of whatever priority it is. And those priorities are, agreed to at the highest level, right? So the biggest one that when it first started, it started with this little movie called the minions that no one had heard of. And the next thing, you know, all of our brands, Bravo, everyone was creating some housewives minions. tagline, whatever it could be. when we had Chucky, we knew that we wanted to get a male audience and sports raised their hands and we were able to do some really great sports integration. So Symphony is our way of looking at how each of the networks can support something in a very effective and efficient way.

I'm seeing, I'm seeing the Olympics promoted, pretty broadly in a lot of different ways across all the networks. I guess that's another example.

Absolutely

I imagine it can get pretty competitive on, you know, promotion on, on peacock, you know, like what, what kind of gets.

right. They do have a lot going on. So, yes. We all are, and we all have our children, so we all want us to be promoted. but, but that's the other thing we understand that, the prioritization is created due to the opportunity of a show and due to what it's going to do for the brand. And that's how you start prioritizing. Where is the audience? What is the ultimate opportunity for both that show As well as how is that going to affect the brands? So that's how you're prioritizing things. Everything is getting support, certain things are getting more support upon the opportunity it presents.

So much opportunity, also so much noise, know, what are the biggest challenges and just trying to cut through that and, and having, I mean, you have so many great storylines and characters and all these things, but, it's, even when you have those things, it doesn't always mean that you're going to be successful. So, where do you find it most difficult?

Well, I mean, what you just said, cutting through all of the clutter is really, really hard. and finding your audience is hard. There are so many places to, to find them and, and welcome them. But again, we all have limited resources. And so. We're very, very strategic about where we place our bets. We work with research. We work with the show producers. We work with press. We work with social. We really need to understand what are the opportunities that are going to afford us the biggest bang for our buck. media. We have an incredible media group head headed by Kirsten Beatty, and she is constantly working with agencies, working with data, working with research to make sure that A, we have the best, most effective and efficient buys out there. B, that as data changes, as people's behavior changes, we're on top of it. And she shares that with everybody. you know, it's not just one thing. Nowadays, you just really have to be tapping into so many areas to see where the audience is going. and then you just, there's the art, right? And then you're placing your own bet. You're, what is your gut telling you?

Ellen, you just talked about the idea of media buys. talked a little bit about, you know, inventory, ad inventory, be that on your own networks or sister networks promoting content. how much time do you spend? Buying time and money. You can't tell the numbers, I'm sure, but How much, how much investment do you have to make in buying, real estate, promotional real estate on other non owned networks to drive viewership?

Well,

priority?

it, it's, it's always, in order to get a new audience, you have to leave your own. environment, right? So in order for us to expand our audience, our reach, we need to go and find new like minded audiences to bring them into our fold. And so it's a huge priority owned and earned and paid. All of that is a priority. I'd like to say I don't even know how I would percentage allocate it, but paid is definitely something we need because while we want to work with press and get as much earned as we can, we want to create that that viral moment. And we do paid affords us an ability to be really, strategic in grabbing an audience that is similar in it. behavior in look in demographic to what we already know, likes our show, our network. And it lets us to go out there and find them and bring them in. So it's, it's, I, it's hugely important.

Yeah. So, yeah, I'm sure you can't tell us about a percentage, but, you know, is, is, is, is your, your focus on buying, uh, inventory on other non owned networks to drive your audience something that is like a greater need than it used to be?

it's it's harder. It's a harder thing to do because there are so many places to go. So data becomes really important for us to go out there and and be whether it's programmatic or it's terror picking picking those great big shows. It's just incredibly important for us to be able to do that in an effective way. So it is it is really important. But I can't tell you the power of earned media because that's giving you a social context and conversation that's more organic, right? So it's kind of like that old thing when, back in the day when a magazine would call you up and be like, we are doing a two page spread on you. So, can you buy another page? And then you thought to yourself, do I buy the page so I reinforce what's happening in the spread? Or, is the spread enough? Do I really need a page because I got people there? That's the question all the time that we're asking ourselves. What is the relationship between owned and earned? And sometimes you absolutely buy that page. And sometimes you just let it go and have the conversation speak for itself,

well, it just depends and, you know, just flex based off of, I mean, just the fact that you have the own stuff and, you know, some of the non scripted space. You know, you have the Bravo liberties who can get the word out and the conversations there. You don't need to rely on the other stuff. Whereas maybe like a new scripted program might need a little bit more.

little more help.

yeah. I'm kind of fascinated by the recent, development of, you know, the, the reemergence of a program like suits on Netflix, you know, posts. I mean, like, what a fascinating thing that's become, you know, what are your, what are your thoughts on that? And, uh, have you been watching that pretty closely?

Um, I have, well, first of all, I love Suits when, when it was on USA the first time. yeah, I think I, you know, Netflix has an incredible recommendation algorithm that allows You know, allow shows to surface at the right time to the right audience. And I love any time that there's a re emergence of a show. I think it's amazing. Do I wish it was re emerging on USA? I do! But, right now I went on and I can find Shaws of Sunset on Netflix. And I love it because it's, it's our storytelling. And I think that they don't try to shy away from the bravo of it. You know, but, yeah, it's, it's hard to see our brand, our shows on another

Yeah.

platform, but, you know, it does give us a new audience for them to discover Bravo and discover USA and discover what we're about. So, you know, it's interesting. It's interesting.

Netflix someday, maybe I'll be watching Suits and I'll see you promote the next season of Real

I just, I love that now they're all doing ad supported and they were just like, Peacock, why are you going ad supported? And we're like, you'll see.

Yeah. Because everything's getting so expensive, you're going to need to have a lower priced tier. That's one reason.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, and it's just, it's such a wild landscape. I mean, you also have the kind of reverse story where, Peacock has the rights to the show Yellowstone repeats and that's bringing a lot of traffic into Peacock too. So I

Yeah, Yellowstone has been great on Peacock and, you know, that's also the wonderful thing about Peacock is that you've got the new originals and you've got a library of content. You've got the office, you've got Yellowstone, you've got an entire library of Bravo, can't, can't say it enough, an entire library of Bravo

Well, and what you're saying is if someone subscribes to Peacock, they get an entire library of Bravo?

That's kind of what I'm saying.

Act now. Operators are standing by.

See, I'm a marketer. I am.

We're here to help you sell some shows. Absolutely.

Yeah.

one of the things that we like to do on this podcast is really talk a little bit about, you know, not just kind of what you're doing now and where you're going, but also like how you got here and, you know, you've had an amazing career and, the, the landscape has changed tremendously, but, uh, we'd love to kind of hear about, you know, where are the big milestones for you that kind of got you to where you are today?

I started in media, but back when the media agencies weren't media agencies, they were just kind of like these little entities that both that that bought tonnage, really. And it was a company called Vipmedia. And I was there for about a year and a half realizing that this wasn't the heart of what I wanted to be doing, but I was a media person. I just kept kind of increasing my, the size of the agency. So I went from a media agency to a full service, but small agency, called Margiotis, Fertitta Weiss, now defunct. And then I went larger and larger and, I was able to really participate on some great campaigns that weren't just about, quote unquote, advertising. When I got to Bozell, and again, now defunct, so don't try and find these agencies. But when I got to Bozell, I was on that milk campaign that you mentioned. And that was the first time that I was really doing 360 touch advertising, where I understood that it's really not just about the print dad and the TV spot and the radio ad. It's about, Every single touch point of the consumer people had talked about it and I always spouted it But I didn't really understand it until I understood until I got a hold of this Mill campaign which was the first time I put out a book about advertising And the first time we had people touring and integrations from PR and stuff like that And then while I was working on the the mill campaign there was You know, that was when the big agencies were actually splitting apart and you were getting these huge strategic media houses that were coming to life as well as the creative, strategic, and they were becoming more boutique y, than what it was in the combined. And as that breakup was happening, I was able to transfer from pure advertising over to the brand side. And I ended up going to Lifetime to head up their consumer marketing group, which was all. Scripted and it was really interesting and, um, I loved it. And I was there for a number of years, and while I was there, we were going through times with, I learned about the affiliates and the MVPs, you know, your Comcast, your, spectrums and all those, really important areas in, television. And, my copywriter came in and said, Hey, brought this new. Network or revamped network. She said, bravo. Have you seen their stuff? They're great. And they're looking for a head of consumer. And I was like, I have seen their stuff because they've We always plastered the out of home in New York. And I said, Oh, that's really interesting. And I'm like, I don't, I don't have time. I have so much to do. I don't have time. And she's just like, Cynthia synopsis, just apply. What's it going to do? And I was like, all right, I'll apply online. And I applied online for the head of consumer.

So all of those milestones that Brian asked you about along the way to get to where you are now. Did you ever think you would be in charge of setting the tone for a really big portion of pop culture? Because that's where you are now.

did not, I did not. And I have to say, I would love to take all the credit because I am due all the credit. No, I'm just kidding. But Bravo was built. In a collaborative group of people. It was there was not one person that can take sole responsibility for Bravo. It really was. And it has been. And it's one of the things I love most about my job is that I know that whether it's the head of press, whether it's the head of Whether it's Frances Barak, who is now the chairman of everything. She's so wonderful. I know that everyone will take a moment and say, we have an issue or we have an opportunity. No matter who it is, I can call someone and they'll step back and I'll say, let's talk it through and let's all get on board. And that's how Bravo was built. And Andy Coe.

I'd love to hear about the, uh, what you guys have done with the Oxygen Network and how you've rebranded that in the True Crime

Yeah. Oxygen has been the little engine that could, when we got, when we first got oxygen, it was another woman's brand. And remember I was coming off of years at lifetime and we got it. And what we started to recognize was it is definitely a woman's brand, but a general, a generalist or a broad woman's brand, it is not. There were too many places already that had those securely, that audience secured. And we took a step back and we said, what are the two biggest shows on oxygen? I, it was, and again, collaborative, and we said, we have bad girls club. I'm not sure if you know what that is, but that was a show about bad girls. Okay. It was a show about bad girls. And, um, it was interesting. It was, um, it was a difficult show because it was, you know, you were watching it because you couldn't believe it was OMG. And we thought, what is the. Expansion of that. You know what I mean? That level of OMG. And that was just hard to to kind of figure it out. And then we also had snapped women who snapped in crime. And no matter where we put it, no matter what we did with it, people came and found it. And, um, I wish it was me. It wasn't me. But someone came in from the executive team and said, Why don't we pivot to crime? And we did a lot of research and we did a lot of, um, audience shifting and sifting to see, do we have the shows that could do it? And we started building shows around true crime and

a big decision to shift the personality of the network based on the fact that you saw two shows catch fire. Interesting.

it was huge. And here's what I will say, and this is goes for all the brands. We are not scared of risk. We're just, it's gotta be smart. We've got to have our ducks in the row before we do something big like that. And we, again, we saw the interest and the excitement around snapped. And it wasn't like we said we're going to kill everything all together. We still had bad girls on the network because we knew we still needed that audience and the opportunity to convert them. But we went in July of 2017, I think was when we switched over. I can't even remember. I might get that wrong. We switched over pretty, pretty full on. And we were able to We were able to compete with the big guy, which is ID, and they're great for what they do, but we were giving a quality of storytelling that you couldn't find anywhere else. So again, our content was a little bit different from what you were getting in other crime places. We really look for quality in things like a show about Aaron Hernandez and disappearance of all these different people. We were very respectful and very careful in our storytelling. So again, content, content, content,

and it's definitely an area that drives consumer engagement too, you know, and and different types of conversation outside of just itself and, yeah,

Peacock also has done really well with a lot of the oxygen content because crime is crime is good. No crime is an area that continues to have a lot of viewership.

that's awesome.

Crime is not good for anybody listening to this podcast.

Everything. Crime equals good. No,

She is advocating making really smart decisions based on seeing a crime show catch. It's an amazing bit of decision making.

Bravo also used one show as a, as a guidepost to where we went with our brand. So, in 2003, Bravo launched a little show called Queer Eye for the straight guy, later just Queer Eye. And Bravo saw in that a model. For the types of shows that we then really leaned hard hard into there was food fashion beauty design and pop culture and pop culture. I mean, that really, that really launched a whole era of the brand. But you'll know we had project runway. We have top chef. we had beauty shows like sheer genius. We had real houses filled the pop culture bucket. I mean, I can tell you who the guys were on the query back in our day and yeah, And the buckets that they filled in terms of our content.

Amazing.

So it's great when you can really look at a show and be able to take that show and move it forward.

Well, Ellen, we are, we are at time, and you've been really gracious with yours, and we were thrilled for the conversation. We've probably talked to you for a long, long time about navigating this crazy media ecosystem, but we love what you've shared with us so far, so thank you.

My pleasure. Thank you.

thank you.

You have a great day. Thanks, Ellen.

Bye guys.

Well, Ryan, it's hard to say goodbye, isn't it?

It's so hard to say goodbye.

It's even harder to listen to you sing than it's hard to say goodbye. it was great to have, Ellen, she's got such a, such a complicated job, so, God bless her. It's a good thing she's really smart. all right, before we wrap up here, uh, it's time for our, our usual Dear Hopelessly Unattainable Guest segment.

Who were you bringing in that we're not gonna bring in?

Hey, now, Brian, you're gonna like this one.

Okay.

Alright, dear Jason Kelsey, as you know, we've asked giants from tech, media, music, and sports to be our guest on Snap Decision. You're not only a giant human, you're a giant in sports, media, and pop culture. Brian and I are massive Philly sports fans, so your status as an Eagles football superstar is reason enough for us to be really excited about you joining us. But now you're a podcasting legend too. With the New Heights podcast you produce with Taylor Swift's boyfriend, Travis Kelsey. Note, this is not a cheap ploy to get to Taylor, one of our previous Hopelessly Unattainable guests. Uh, dude, you're a legend. You're a surefire first ballot Hall of Famer, the greatest center in Eagles history. You've got a bright future in broadcasting awaiting you if you want it. Most important, you're a man of the people. Never has an athlete so much love unanimously among us fickle, ruthless Philly fans. And it's not just us. You won over a hostile crowd with your shirtless beer chugging antics during your brother's recent playoff win on the road in Frozen Buffalo. It is completely implausible that an Eagles star player could celebrate a Chiefs touchdown amid thousands of angry Bills fans, but you did. Jason, come join us. Teach us podcasting. Take off your shirt and chug a beer with us. Your pals, John and Brian.

I mean, John, I I think he's I think we can get him.

I agree.

of the people. Why wouldn't he want to talk to us?

He goes to the same McDonald's and Brewmall every day, apparently. We could just camp out there and just, you know, picket him.

That's a good idea. We'll buy him some nuggets.

the first time we actually take some action about getting one of these. Hope we'll see unattainable guests.

We gotta, we gotta act on these. He's close. He's in our city.

This feels like a, like a gettable thing. Yeah. I'm going to put this on your to do list.

Okay. I'm on it.

all right. That's all I got, sir.

right. All right. Nice. Nice, uh, getting back together.

Yes. Happy 2024 and, looking forward to our next episode.

See ya.

Bye.