Andy and Katie Mandt, welcome to the QVC podcast.

Hey, how are you doing?

Hey, Meredith, thanks for having us.

My pleasure, Andy. We had a great chat last time

and I'm super excited to do it again with Katie

in the house.

Yay.

As the two of you founded this company together.

And Katie, I was actually just listening to you

on a podcast talking about how you both, the two

of you started this sort of like out of your

bedroom while you were both working other jobs

and you ordered these glasses and you were like,

oh my gosh, this is so important. People really

need these. And it just kind of took off.

That is so true.

Tell me a bit about, like, that's such a fun

journey.

Yeah. Do you know what? It's actually quite funny

as well. It was leading up to our wedding, which

is going on about eight years ago now. Like any

bride and groom, you're trying to get into the

best physique for those photos. So we were like

exercising more, dieting just to sort of get the

best physiques. And it was Andy that decided to

look into sleep and how that impacts what you eat

and your energy levels and how well that you work

out at the gym. And he went down this rabbit

warren reading all the different scientific

studies out there to understand how do you

improve sleep. And then through that, learned

that artificial blue light after dark can really

impact your body's natural ability to produce

melatonin. So Andy started off by ordering a pair

of blue light blocking glasses off a well known

platform. They arrived and oh my gosh, I wish we

took photos that I could share it with the

community. Now they were full on safety goggles

and he'd wear them in the evening watching

Cavity. I thought he was mad. Honestly, I was

like, I have a pair like that.

They're like the big square plastic orange.

Yeah, it's like orange. Like literally something

out of laboratory. So he started wearing these

off work and I was like, you are a freak. What

are you doing? But his sleep did start to improve

a little bit. So I was like, okay, there is

something here. But the, the signs know that Andy

has kept delving deeper and deeper to understand,

well, why are they working and why are they not

profoundly impacting his sleep? They're only

having a slight impact on it. Learned that

there's very specific wavelengths that need to be

blocked. Not just generic blue light, a very

specific wavelength of blue and some green light,

and then struggles to find any glasses that

actually did block that. So long story short, we

were like, there's an opportunity here. To design

something that's actually stylish that people

would want to wear because there's no way I'd go

out to a restaurant wearing the glasses that he

was wearing, that correct lens that block the

right round frequencies to optimize sleep. And so

the journey sort of evolved from there quite

quickly, to be honest with you. Once we found out

how to develop the, the lens and what needed to

be done, the rest was quite smooth sailing,

wasn't it really? Reaching out to influencers and

people that we were networked with to begin with

to give them a pair to see if they could have,

have a go and report back. And they all reported

back how great they were and how much better than

the original pair that they had. And so we just

launched the brand and, and ran with it. A little

bit blind I guess in the beginning. Just thought,

let's just do it and see. We still had jobs at

the time, so it was a side hustle. So there was

no sort of commitment or impact on us. It was

just a side like passion project that quickly

grew that allowed us to then leave our day jobs

and run it full time and over the years now have

grown it. We've got a team of about 35 staff now.

So it's been an evil.

That's crazy. Yeah, I think too, I think it's

good. I always say if I knew now what I knew at

the beginning of any given project, I'm like, I

would never have done it. We have to be a little,

a little blind to what we're getting ourselves

into.

Just go with it, go with your gut.

You just gotta go for it.

Yeah, absolutely.

So Andy, if you could just, you know, I know, I

know everyone listening, I know, you know, but I

don't think we can, I really don't think that we

can hear it too many times, please. And you're so

good at explaining it, Andy. So please tell us

why. Why do we need to block blue light at night?

I know, yeah, it's, it's that double edged sword,

blue light. It's such a fantastic thing when used

correctly and such a bad thing when used

incorrectly. So I always like to go back to how

we were ancestrally. Okay, so hundreds of

thousands of years ago we evolved as you know,

through our life cycle to human beings that we

are now. But one thing that evolved all those

hundreds of thousands of years ago was something

called a body clock, a circadian rhythm. And it's

a little tiny clock system that's in the middle

of our brain. And what it does Is it uses light

to tell your body, your internal mechanisms, what

time of the day it is. And why that's so

important is it allows for certain hormones,

hormones and neurotransmitters to either be

released or suppressed. So as we lived

ancestrally, we live mainly outside, right? So we

would get up in the morning hundreds of thousands

of years ago with the rising sun. And what that

would do is that would tell our body clock, our

circadian rhythm, that it was daytime. And it

knew this because the blue light would stimulate

dopamine, serotonin and cortisol, which are all

really important for us to be active during the

day. We needed to be active during the day

because we needed to go out to hunt, to gather,

and to do what, what we used to do back in those

days. Now, as we were outside all day, the

sunlight actually changes in its spectrum gently

throughout the day and into the, into the

evening. And all those little subtle changes in

light was telling our circadian rhythm what time

of day it was. And to dial things down, dial

hormones up, and just keep us really in hormonal

bliss. And then as the sun set in the evenings,

that would then signal to our clock system that,

okay, blue lights going now, so the evening must

be coming. We need to lower cortisol and we need

to increase the hormone melatonin, which is our

sleep hormone. And then we put the campfire on.

You know, we'd probably sit around there talking

or eating those types of things. And that would

be in the presence of orange and red light, which

has been shown in studies to help increase

melatonin production, which is great. Then we

would go to sleep and we wake up the next morning

and that cycle would continue until we died of

old age or eaten by a saber toothed tiger,

whatever it might have been. But what we've done

now is as we've evolved light, like, you know,

when you go into like say the 1700s and the

1800s, we still would have had that kind of

rhythm and that kind of natural light cues. We

didn't really have artificial light in those

eras. We would have had, you know, moved around

the house with a lantern that was like a candle.

We'd have had candlelight, firelight, things like

that still exist. But it wasn't until recently

that the, the governments and the companies,

they, they invented something called LED lights.

And what they did with these lights is they

stripped out all the red light, most of the

orange light, and they left in the blue light and

some of the green light. And these were put into

our house lights at the time. And what this did

was every, every time the sun would set and we'd

go in and we'd watch telly, which is where LEDs

are, or we turn on our house lights or, or in the

last 20 years, scroll for our smartphone that

still sends light signals to our ancient

circadian rhythm, our ancient body clock. So this

body clock can't distinguish between artificial

and natural light. So what it's doing is these

little artificial suns that are all scattered

around our house or our workplace after sunset is

still telling our body clock that it's evening

time, that it's sorry, that it's daytime, and to

keep cortisol level high and to not have high

levels of melatonin, the sleep hormone. So our

bodies are now believing that we're in perpetual

daylight, there is no darkness anymore because

the light signals aren't stopping after sunset,

which they used to do. So we have to think

ancestrally and go back to how our ancestors used

to live to be able to mimic what they saw, which

is darkness after sunset. So we do that by

wearing the glasses you're wearing now, by

changing some of the lighting in our house, by

powering down electronic devices one to two hours

before bed so our circadian rhythms can actually

understand what time of day it is and to produce

the correct hormones to allow us to sleep better.

Right. It makes so much sense when you say it and

yet we don't think about it. I mean, the three of

us do and people listening do, but up and you

know, up until we stumbled on this information,

it just doesn't see, it just doesn't occur to

people. And when, you know, I think anyone who's

interested in their health, they understand,

like, okay, if I eat like ultra processed high

sugar foods, that's going to be really difficult

for my body because that's not food found in

nature. I should eat real food. Everyone's like,

oh yeah, totally, that makes sense. But we don't

take that next step and then apply it to all of

the other things that our body is communicating

with.

Yeah, it's so true. It's that whole thing of what

you don't know, you don't know. And there's

probably tons of other things that as humans we

don't know are impacting us from a, you know, a

really negative standpoint. I mean, it's only

until recently that we weren't even thinking

about EMF radiation, you know, like 5G Wi Fi, 4G

cellular towers. And it's, that's really allowing

people to start wake up. Waking up now to, well,

blue light is actually on the EMF spectrum, EMF

radiation, like what I've just discussed there is

on that spectrum. And it's all impacting and

interacting with our cells in a way that the

human body has never had before. Like, we've

evolved for millions of years and the systems

that have evolved within us biologically have

been around for that length of time as well. They

haven't just suddenly evolved in the last 30

years, they've been around for millions of years

in us. And now we're almost creating an

environment where they've evolved that isn't

conducive to how they would function optimally.

You know, it's like, you know, it's like building

a car to ride on tarmac roads and then taking it

down a mountain. It's just not going to work. The

environment is very different. But what we're

doing in this day and age is we're bringing out

these technologies on this electromagnetic

spectrum that human bodies just aren't used to

receiving. And we're almost like this experiment

now of like, well, let's see what happens in the

next 30 years like we did with smoking. Let's see

what happens in the next 30 years like we did

with refined seed oils and low fat diets. And

it's only because, like LED artificial lighting

and the advent of smartphones and backlit LED

devices in the last 20 years that right now we're

starting to see the detrimental effects not just

on us as adults, but on our children as well.

Yes. And they're getting their screens younger

and younger and they're holding them closer and

closer to their faces. I mean, I remember as a

child, it's like you were like, you got to be six

feet away from the tv. We're all like, why? No

one had an answer. They're like, that's just the

rule.

Yeah, I remember that.

Yeah.

Or you go blind, I think it was. Or get square

eyes.

Square eyes. Maybe that's. That was an Australian

thing. That's great. That's funny because. Yeah,

now they, you know, like the. Yeah, they're so,

Their little faces are so close up to them.

Something that I love that you guys did is that

you built, you know, and this was also out of

necessity, I guess, but you really built the

company on top of education and on top of

teaching people about this. So I think it's

really interesting because you've had such

amazing growth. You know, even just to stay

focused on the blue blocking glasses which I'm

wearing, you know, and it's like people were

ready for it, but at the same time, like I'm

still outside of this circle. The only person I

know who wears these, like when I go out in my

normal life like and have meetings with, you

know, I was on a committee at my children's

school and we did zoom meetings at night through

the winter and I rock up in these or go to. And

they were like, what is that? What do you. Why?

So I'm just curious like how you see that

education trajectory playing out in the, in the

public sphere as it's coming out of like the

little biohacking corner that it's been in. It's

growing, but there's still so much more room to

go.

Yeah, there is absolutely. There's not enough

people talking about artificial blue light and

its impact on sleep. And I think there's a long

way still to go on that. You're right. It's how

we started the company. Because when we did come

out with the blue light blocking glasses that we

designed and launched, we, we had a massive

education piece to let people know that first of

all, blue light blocking glasses exist. They're a

thing. We had to let them know that artificial

blue light is bad after dark and it is impacting

your sleep. And then thirdly, had to educate them

on the actual wavelengths that they needed to

block. So it wasn't just a case of they could buy

any blue light blocking glasses. They needed

specific tints, specific lenses that would block

it. So that was kind of how our journey began.

Anyway, it was always education first because it

was such a young industry. And I even think it is

now, years on, more people are understanding how

it impacts sleep. But there is also that

reluctance for people to let go of technology. So

they don't want to sometimes believe that it's

impacting them. I do find that a little bit

because it's how we connect with everybody now,

right? The world is so digitalized, they don't

want to give up their smartphones, their laptops,

their tv. And there is still an element of

ignorance to the fact that it is impacting their

well being and their sleep. Then you have the

others that are ready to listen and ready to

understand and adopt principles like circadian

friendly lighting and artificial or blue light

blocking glasses to block artificial light after

dark. And then the others I think is going to

need more education and more and more touch

points. It's the classic principle, isn't it,

with marketing that they say you need at least 12

different touch points before someone can

understand something and absorb it. So there is

still the journey to be had. And also we're

battling against big tech brands. They don't want

people to sleep. You know, there's that famous

quote that supposedly, I don't know if it's true

or not, that came out from Netflix, where their

mission was to stop people going to sleep. And

that's why it's got that binge culture where they

want you to stay up and keep, basically keep

absorbing. Because the longer you're awake and

the more that you're on technology, the more

you're able to be marketed to and absorbed enough

for you to absorb more information from whatever

message is being pushed on whatever platform. So

there is a bigger piece at play here, really?

From, from my standpoint.

Yeah, I think, I think on top of that as well, it

was Netflix that said that sleep's their biggest

competitor.

Oh, my God, Netflix.

I know. So that's not great from that standpoint.

But, you know, the thing is, to be able to reach

people, there's got to be a level of them wanting

to help themselves. Right. It's like fitness.

It's like healthy diets. These people aren't

going to be told by you, me, Katie and anyone

else that they need to wear blue light blocking

glasses after sunset or they're going to have,

you know, metabolic issues when they're older.

Because one, they look at it and go, well, I feel

like I'm sleeping. Okay. Two, you know, why would

I want to wear those silly glasses and not watch

all the colors on my favorite TV shows? And

they'd look at it and go, well, this is just

nonsense. The mainstream aren't talking about it,

so it's woo. But those are the things that sort

of come up with the masses. And you've got to,

you've got to want to change. And we've learned

over the years that, you know, we can educate and

we can put information out there that explains

the science, the evidence behind how these

devices will help you from a longevity and

wellbeing standpoint. But if you're not ready to

listen to that, then, you know, you're really

knocking your head against the brick wall, as

they, as they would say. I think one of the

pivotal moments of education moving forward is

probably aligning the brand with trustworthy

sources that are, I guess, in the mainstream

culture at the moment. So, like celebrities, for

instance, trying to get them on board and talking

about these issues because a lot of people that

perhaps aren't ready to be helped will look up to

what these idols are saying and be able to at

least start the conversation. Like the big one

is. There's a big guy in the uk, Simon Cowell.

People in the US know him, but he does all the,

like, oh yeah.

He, he judges all the talent shows.

Yeah, the talent show, like American Idol, that

type of thing. But in the uk and he's now started

to wear red lens, blue light blocking glasses on

the shows because the lights are giving him

migraine headaches and disrupting his sleep. But

when he wore them, there was no publicity. He

came out to do that because he had any kind of

involvement in the company, but because he was

wearing them, the press, the media started

picking up articles on it. Well, why is he

wearing these glasses? And it starts the

conversation. And I think those are important

moments moving forward. If we want to allow

everyone to understand what the, I guess,

biological impact is on artificial light, on our

health and well being, these people at the top

need to start the conversations and then have

brands around them and educational hubs around

them that then continue that conversation, allow

it to make sense to people.

Yeah, that really makes sense. And I think that's

true. I've been thinking a lot about how to what

are the ingredients that we need to shift a

paradigm? Because I think right now people are

like, oh, all right, maybe I'll blue light,

whatever. And they see it as a health tip, cold

plunging or something. And it's, it's really to

me much so much more fundamental than that. It's

like if you get into why light matters so much

and what, how our bodies really work it, it's a

completely different way of looking at human

health. And then once you look at human health

differently, you look at the whole universe

differently. So my like, big passion project is

like, okay, so what are the elements required to

make it a paradigm shift and not just a tactic?

And I think the science obviously is an important

piece. Like you need the scientific research,

even though this is ancient, as you were saying,

just how our bodies have worked since the dawn of

time. But what I think is missing is the

storytelling. I was listening to that podcast,

the Telepathy Tapes. I don't know if that got

popular in Australia, but it was. It's about how

the many non verbal autistic children communicate

with each other telepathically. And where am I

going with this? Where I'm going with this is

that there was a scientist who'd been studying

that for years and years and nobody would really

pay much attention to her. And this podcast, this

documentary producer came along and Turned her,

turned her work into a podcast and turned it into

a story. And it one week on the podcast charts at

Beat Joe Rogan, like it was downloaded like a

bajillion times. And I was like, oh, we need the

science needs storytellers. And I think like Andy

and Katie, I think that's what you are. And then

as you were saying, like the more, the more and

the more famous ones we can get, great. But it's

that it's telling the story in a way because then

people can absorb it into their lives. Whereas

just throwing studies at them doesn't land the

same way.

Yeah, 100% right. You got to be able to talk

about, you need to be able to, you know, from our

point of view, understand the studies, read them

and then translate them into actionable sort of

items that people can then incorporate into their

day to day life. Rather than sort of saying, you

know, this study showed that, you know, the

statistical significance in this, that and the

other was whatever, like no one cares. Like,

let's be honest, it's, it's more, it's more like

saying, you know, there's a specific banding of

light, it's found in your laptops and your house

phones. It's going to disrupt your sleep. You've

got two options. Go and live in the middle of the

field and throw away your devices or wear red

lens blue light blocking glasses two to three

hours before bed before you start using them. And

I think it's sort of, when you were talking

there, another thing that sort of came to mind is

a lot of the audience that are into this type of

thing, whether it be blue light blocking glasses,

whether it be red light therapy, whether it be

cold plungers, whatever the holistic protocol may

be is they're already sick, right? They've been

sick, they've had health issues themselves and

they know what it feels like to number one, be

failed by the institution, big pharma, whatever

it may be. But they also understand what it

feels, feels like to not be healthy. And they,

they use those two things in combination, those

two failures to then look at alternatives within,

you know, holistic medicine, well being, maybe

ancestral practices to really, really get their

health back on track as almost a last resort.

Sometimes they've tried everything else,

everything else has failed. And then when they

start doing these basic easy to incorporate

holistic measures like grounding outside,

barefoot, watching the sun rise, wearing blue

light blockers before bed, maybe having a cold

plunge if they've got arthritis, things like

that, maybe they're doing red light Therapy,

really easy protocols. They soon realize that

being healthy isn't very complicated at all. And

it's actually quite easy to do if you're prepared

to change your life very dramatically from what

you've been told and how to be told to live your

life. And living your life closer to as close as

you can to nature and as close as you can to how

we lived ancestrally has profound effects on

one's well being and getting healthy and, or, you

know, even maintaining health. But the big thing

for, for us is we want to be able to reach people

before they get sick. You know, it's great to

help people recover and great to help people

live, you know, a more fulfilling, healthy life

by these, you know, ancient protocols. But how do

we reach the people that are healthy already or

the ones that are starting to go down the

slippery slope of you're not going to be well in

10 to 20 years time because you're eating refined

seed oils, you're not exercising, you're not

lifting weights, you're eating a very refined

processed diet, you're not blocking blue light

after dark, you're not outside enough. How do you

then tell those people that, well, in 20 you

might feel great now, but in 10 to 15, 20 years

you're going to feel like the other people that

are with us now that are healing from, you know,

lifelong issues caused by, you know, eating badly

or not managing that blue light. I guess what I'm

saying is here that the people that are well now,

it's like eating a, eating McDonald's every day

when you're 16 until you're 20, you're not going

to notice really much difference at all. You'll

be all right. You'll probably be a bit

overweight, but maybe you exercise a bit as well.

But if you continue to eat like that for 20

years, you're going to have major metabolic

syndrome and major metabolic issues. And the same

is true with light. You know, people go, well,

I'm falling asleep. Fine. Okay, great. Well,

how's the quality of this sleep? Are you tracking

it on a whoop or an aura or another tracking

device? No. How do you know if your REM and deep

sleep are good? Because it doesn't matter if

you're sleeping well, falling asleep fast, if

you're not getting the restorative deep and REM

sleep that your body needs to recover and clear

out the dead and dying damaged cells over time,

that's going to have a compounding impact on your

health and well being.

Yeah, it's so true. And and it's like I. So often

I hear people and they're like, oh, okay, all

right, I'm gonna get healthy. And they're like,

I'll just. And they're like, and they're. I. And

what they think that means, it never includes

light and it often includes taking supplements

and eating vegan.

Okay, we see that too much. I know, I think

that's, that's the default setting for getting

healthy, isn't it? Or they go the other route and

they take on too much. They try to take on all

these different practices, do an ice bath every

morning, go for, you know, 20 kilometer runs. And

they take on so much that they actually can't do

it day to day. It becomes, it becomes too much,

it's not sustainable. And then they give up and

they go, nah, being well, it's too hard or

looking after my well being, it takes too much

out of my time. I'm not feeling that I am unwell

right now, so I'll just carry on as I am. And

that's the message that we're trying to put out

there as well. It's not complicated. It's just a

few, few simple tweaks, A lot of them free as

well. You don't have to invest in these big

expensive products. Some of them are just getting

out into the sun in the morning or changing a

bulb, switching one bulb out and putting it

circadian friendly bulb in the lamp that you're

sitting in the evening. They're simple things,

but they really do change their well being.

Yes. And I love, I try to hammer that message all

the time. Like it doesn't have to be complicated.

And small little things, especially when it comes

to light, make a huge difference. Like just

throwing on those glasses, going outside in the

morning. Like, yeah, it doesn't need to be a

major life overhaul. It makes such a difference.

And I have, you know, over the, over the years,

like I have yet to meet anybody who, who started

wearing blue blockers and didn't notice a

difference. Like I have friends who are like,

who, you know, they're like, they're like, oh

right, I guess, like should, I really should get

them. I'm like, yeah, you really should. And then

they like the next day they're like, oh my God, I

slept so much better like that night.

That's the thing. It's crazy. And it's like, it's

like this, like this whole biohacking, this whole

sort of quantum science when people want to try

and holistically get healthy. Right. It's Very

much a spectrum. You could be at the beginning of

it, you could be at the end of it and be the

ultra biohacker like Brian Johnson, Dave Asprey,

people like that. But it's fine for an individual

to be anywhere along there on their journey. And

the big thing is where I would start off is I

would look at it from a point of view of what

would I like to improve in my life? And that's

what we did. That's how we founded the company.

We looked at our sleep and said, how do we

improve this? And what can I do that isn't

conventional to improve my sleep? Okay, so maybe

someone says, my sleep's not great. Okay, well,

wear blue light blocking glasses two to three

hours before bed and watch the sun rise and your

sleep will improve. Someone could say, I've had

arthritis for years. What could I do that isn't

conventional? To help? Maybe I'm going to have an

ice bath once a day. I'm going to get in there

and have an ice bath and feel amazing. Maybe I'm

going to try red light therapy to help with, with

it. Maybe someone suffers from migraine

headaches, so they change the flickering LED

light bulbs in some of their house lights and

wear light sensitivity glasses when they're

working on a computer. You know, it's kind of

looking at your, looking at your current life and

going, am I optimal? And the answer is always

going to be no. Right? No one's going to get to

that 100%. It's just impossible in the world we

live in. But where would you put yourself out of

10? You know, how do you feel in the mornings?

How do you feel during the day? Are, are you

crashing at 3:00pm? You know, are you struggling

to get to sleep? Little things like that. Pick

one that's a nuance in your life and go, how can

I holistically do something to make myself feel

better? And just try it, because you're not going

to lose either way. It's not as though you're

taking a medication, a pill that may have some

profound and unwanted side effects. You're only

going to try these things and go, oh, you know

what, that worked for me. Or you know what? Cold

plungers aren't for me. I, I literally, my body

cannot get into an ice bath or something like

that. So maybe I'll look at red light therapy

instead for my joints. So it's kind of looking at

it like that. And I think a lot of people like

what Katie was alluding to in alternative health

Biohacking well, being quantum science, I think

they bite off more than they can chew too

quickly. They go full. I don't do anything to

full Dave Asprey in like a day. And it's just

because you've got to have 150 supplements and

you know, 400 hours of red light therapy a day,

which just isn't practical. But there's so many

cool things people can do just to like make those

little incremental 1% improvements and it will

compound over time. It's like investing money.

Right. If you do 1% more every week, you know,

in, in two years you're going to be up at the

Dave Aspirate sort of level. Or you may go in two

years. You know what? I'm fine at 20% because I

feel great. And that's all the time in my life

that allows for it. Because, you know, rather

than biohacking 24 hours a day and sleeping, I

wouldn't mind playing with the kids or the

grandkids or you know, going out for a dinner

with friends and stuff like that, which is all

fine to do. Have that odd glass of wine if that's

what some something you want to do. Life is still

there to be lived and biohacking just needs to be

incorporated into it to just optimize that time

you've got on this planet. So we're aging well.

We're not, you know, adding 10 years of, you

know, I'm going to be sat in a nursing home for

an extra 10 years. Brilliant. That was kind of

not worth the extra 10 years I did biohacking.

You're not, you're going to be living the way

we're living now, into old age and living well

and being mobile. And that's what biohacking does

for you.

Yes. And it's, it's, yeah, it's, I think that

term reverse aging has come up right where it's

like the, the chronology rolls on. You know,

we're not going to not get older. But yeah, our

bodies don't have to decay in the, in the way

that we thought they did and we don't have to be

these crazy biohackers in order to support the

process. There's so many things to do and it's,

I've been seeing lately, you know, I think, I

mean, I think everyone should do whatever they

want. I don't care. But, but these gurus who do

all the things right, they, people get turned off

and they're like, I'm not doing that, like all

this health stuff is nuts. And I saw, I saw a

post recently from a young woman, I think she

works like in Silicon Valley or something. And

she was like, all right, listen, I talked to one

of those health people and I guess they're not

all crazy because I've been like turning off my

TV and going for more walks. And I don't know,

she had a few things that she did which are all

really good. Basically she's like, and you know

what? I actually feel a lot better. She was sort

of like begrudgingly acknowledging that the

health freaks maybe have a point on something.

But that's what I loved is that you don't, you

know, you don't have to be crazy. My friend Kelly

Ritter did a post recently. She called it like

barefoot and bougie. And she was like, you don't

have to be like an outdoorsman or like an

outdoorsy person, like living off the land to

benefit from, from this. Like, just take your

shoes off sometimes and still like have whatever

kind of life you want.

Yeah, that's super important, you know, and

that's, that makes it relatable, makes it easier

for people to comprehend that, you know, you

don't have to be a mad scientist and you know,

obsessive to be able to get healthy. And you

know, that's, that's super important. And you

know, I think another topic that's, that's well

worth sort of covering as well is a little bit

about red light therapy as well. We're starting

to see, you know, light can be used for so many

different things. Like, like blue lights, great

to keep you alert. Blocking it helps you sleep.

Green light shown in studies to help with

migraines and the symptoms of migraines it seems,

which is, which is fascinating. But red light has

been been shown and the most studied frequency of

light to have a profound effect on all sorts of

different situations like you know, from skin

appearance to joint and muscle pain to weight

loss to sort of skin conditions like eczema,

psoriasis, sleep. You know, it's, it's, it's

absolutely fascinating. And one of our top

selling products in, in red light therapy and our

most top selling product is our red light face

mask. So interesting, like it's utilizing visible

red light at 630 nanometers, the most studied for

reducing the signs of aging and near infrared

light as well. And that's been incredible for

tens of thousands of people in terms of how they

look physically. Yes, that might not be a health

benefit, but it's a mental health benefit on

aging. You Know, the face sure is. You know what

I mean?

Yeah.

Katie's a great. She uses the red light face mask

like three to four times a week. So maybe you

could talk to the effects that you've seen.

Yeah, and I wanted to bring that up because we

actually haven't really covered. I'm always

wanting people to sleep better and feel better.

And I was like, you know, we actually haven't

talked about how all this makes you look better.

And I'm not gonna pretend that doesn't matter to

all of us. So. Yeah, Katie, tell us, you know,

tell us how like, like red light can make my.

Make me look younger.

Yeah. Really, there's no shame in saying how we

look matters to us. It does. Like Andy said, it's

your mental well being. You know, when you wake

up in the morning and you look in the mirror, do

you see the person that you feel? And if you

don't, there's a disconnect. And that does play a

role on a lot of people's well being. And it's

been something I've had to challenge as I left

late 30s and moved into 40 the other month. It's

a big transition and you feel a lot younger

inside than how you look. But equally don't want

to go down the route of doing other procedures

that maybe aren't very holistic or, you know, I

want to sort of stay with within modalities that

are going to be okay for my well being long term

as well. And red light therapy has been fantastic

for that because like Andy said, there's two

frequencies, the near infrared and the red. The

red light, that's the color that you see, that

has all of your surface level concerns. So any

fine lines, wrinkles, sort of any imperfections,

any discoloration, your skin tone and texture,

it's great for that overall surface level

appearance. But what near infrared does, and this

is the big one, that really helps with the anti

aging properties. Near infrared goes right

through to your muscles and through down to your

joints. And it is so, so good at relaxing the

muscles. So if you think about relax a muscle,

what that does to the skin, it then relaxes the

skin, which then smooths it out, which is then

reducing the appearance of fine lines and

wrinkles further. So just by relaxing the muscle

itself, it can have an effect visually on the

surface level appearance of your skin. Because

there's other procedures out there that are all

tailored around relaxing muscles. We know what

those are, those injectables. It's the principle

of just stopping the muscle getting so tight.

Because when it gets tight it's pulling on the

skin and creating those creases. But you can do

that holistically with red light therapy, just

relaxing it and doing things like gua sha, you

know, just to sort of keep that muscle relaxed

and then your skin will follow suit, it won't be

so crinkled up which will then reduce the

appearance of fine lines and wrinkles. Again,

it's a very simple principle, but I think a lot

of people don't realize that near infrared does

that and then have to in their eyes resort to

some maybe injectables and things that possibly

aren't suitable long term for the, for their well

being. So Nia and Fred is a great alternative for

that.

Yes. And it's really like what we were saying

earlier. I've been thinking about this lately,

like the difference between reverse aging and

anti aging. Right. And where you do when you do

chemicals or you inject things or you do

surgeries and it's like you're fighting your body

and it's going to wear off and it's really

expensive and then you got to go into it again

and whereas when we utilize light therapy,

phototherapy, when we harmonize our body and like

everything you just said, relaxing the muscles

naturally were the benefits are compounding over

time. Like our bodies are getting healthier and

better and we look better but underneath like

we're not, we're not adding chemicals and trying

to change ourselves.

Exactly that. And it's exactly that not changing

yourself. You're not wanting to look like a

different person. If you go and have certain

procedures done, you might look like a different

person. It doesn't even look like you when you

were younger. It is a completely different

whereas. What?

It's weird.

Yeah, right, it is. And a lot of us just want to

look fresh and like we've slept and you know that

the effects of time haven't taken its toll on our

appearance and we just want to look in the mirror

and see reflected back at us who we feel inside.

So. And it's actually quite confronting. I've

heard some, you know, quite sort of challenging

stories from, from people that have gone under

procedures and then it's actually had a worse

effect on their well being because yes, they

might look younger but they no longer identify

with a person that's looking back because it's

completely changed the structure and it doesn't

look like them anymore. So yes, they might have

reduced fine lines and wrinkles and you know,

might look a bit younger. It's not how they

looked when they were younger. And therefore it's

still that disconnect. And it's always that

disconnect. It doesn't feel authentic. And then

when you don't feel authentic, you don't feel

true to yourself. And that just impacts so many

different areas of your life. And there is so

much you can do holistically now for not just

your well being but, but beauty as well. You

know, just, just skincare products themselves,

just checking the ingredients in them. You know,

some of those aren't great for, for the body, you

know, toxins that are in them and the overload

that's going on on the skin. But you know, I

question sometimes whether some products actually

contribute to aging.

I don't know.

That's not something I've had proven. But it's

things that play in the back of your mind. You

know, it's a bit like the medical industry. You

know, they, they want you to keep taking

medication. You know, it'll have a little bit of

an impact to make you feel better, but you need

to keep taking it in order for it to, to have

long term effects.

And yeah, they want us medicated in front of

Netflix.

Yeah. Lathering on skincare products that we

think are making us look younger, but actually

it's aging us.

Yeah. And then going to get Botox because we're

all, we look wrecked.

Yeah, absolutely. There is a better way. Yeah,

there is, there is. And there's freeways just,

you know, getting out into the morning sun,

morning sunrise and sunset. That's the best time

to be out. You know, even if you're not going to

go and do red light therapy with the panels, at

least get the beneficial frequencies in the sun

naturally outside of the peak UV periods for your

skin. That's great as well. The morning morning

sun and evening sun.

Yeah. There's so much we can do. And I liked what

you said too, you know, about the authenticity

piece. Because what I have found is, you know,

taking this route that we're talking about where

we learn to understand how our bodies really work

and to support that. It makes you feel happier,

it makes you feel more powerful. It makes you

feel like, oh, you know what, I belong on this

planet. I'm not just like spinning out through

some weird like pre, pre made synthetic reality

that I'm just gonna hobble through until I get

sick and die. Like it, I think it, you know, I,

there's a spiritual element to stepping outside,

you know, and as you were saying, like wanting to

understand sunlight and darkness cycles and

Support our lives, lives that way and wean off

technology, especially at night. It's like there

are not a lot of forces that are supportive of

that. They're working against us. And so but when

we connect with it, it's like, oh, this is what

it's supposed to feel like to be alive.

It's very true. It's very true. And there's

nothing wrong with the modern world. There isn't,

you know, blessed to be in a time where, you

know, technology and advancements in anything in

the world are happening at such a rapid rate and

we're to see that, you know, that's great. We

shouldn't take away from that. It's just not

letting it overrun us. Remembering where we have

come from and the short time that we have been as

humans on the planet and making sure we blend the

both and use the little hacks that are available

to us to live in the modern world while still

kind of remembering where we've come from and who

we are at the core. And I think there's, there's

the opportunity to have both. There really is,

you know, otherwise we'd be advocating not having

smartphones, not having TVs, not having laptops

and disconnecting from everything. We don't

advocate that. They're fantastic. We're able to

have this conversation now for the very reason

this technology here. We're just advocates for

the glasses that you're wearing to protect you

whilst you're on the call to us. So there isn't,

it doesn't need to be a fee mongering thing where

it's like forget everything in the modern world.

It's just using it with intent, not being

consumed by it. You know, picking the moments in

your day where you are on social media and maybe

disconnecting the rest of the time and then just

making sure you're looking after your well being

whilst you're in the modern, the modern world.

And it really is as simple as that from my, from

my standpoint anyway.

Yeah, no, I completely agree. I like the modern

world. Yeah, I like living on the grid. I have no

plans to leave. Okay. So I mentioned earlier at

my, at my family dinner tonight, I told my

children, I'm like, oh, I'm interviewing the

founders of Boncharge tonight. So they all, we

have lots of on charge stuff in our house. So

they were all, they all knew what that, knew what

that was. So I made them all come up with a

question for you. So while we're on the red

light, I'll start with My older daughter, who she

just finished her first year at university and at

Christmas I let her bring the Bon Charge sauna

blanket back to school with her. And her friends

were like, what is that? It's weird. And then

they all wanted to borrow it. But she said she,

she started going to the gym a lot more than she

used to and she would come back all shaky and she

would, especially on, on leg days. This is, yeah,

this is what she was saying at dinner. But then

she would put the sauna blanket around and she

said it, she would feel so much better. Better.

So she wanted to know why.

Yeah, absolutely. No, it's a great question. And

it comes all comes down to recovery and how light

can be used to penetrate deep within to the

muscles. So when she's been in the gym, you know,

she's a female, she's going to be working her

lower body constantly. Like that's just how

females do it. Like guys work up the work on the

chest, the girls work on the legs and the glutes.

So she's had a hard day in the gym and she's had

a good session. She's going to have all that

energy sapped out of the muscle. You know,

they're going to be. She would have pushed them

to the point of, you know, failure so she can

grow those muscles which leaves them feeling

wobbly and jelly like after, after an intense

session. So the way infrared sauna works is

different from red light therapy. So it's not

near infrared and it's not red light, it's far

infrared light. So it's used for heating

purposes. Now when you go into a normal sauna,

like a cold sauna, it heats the air around you,

so it just sort of heats the outer part of the

body. Whereas what the far infrared light does,

it penetrates deep into the muscles and starts to

heat within the muscles. It starts to raise the

temperature internally. And what studies have

shown is that when we apply heat, not cold, after

we work out, that enables the muscles to start

relaxing, more energy to be produced in the

muscular system. And when there's more energy

produced in that system, we start to recover

faster. And as a result, those shakes will stop a

lot quicker because we're warming those muscles,

providing more energy for them to heal quickly.

And she'll come out of that sauna blanket and

just, yeah, feel like she can walk again

normally, which is something that wouldn't have

happened that quickly without utilizing far

infrared light for that sort of internal heating

process of the muscle.

Cool. Thank you. Okay. There's that's the clip

for Millie. All right. So then my younger, my

youngest, her question was, how do you get the

orange glasses? Orange?

Oh, it's quite a process, actually. Actually

takes about a few hours per lens. It's basically

just keep it brief. It's a constant dying. So it

goes in and out of a. Of a bath, I guess you

could call it, of dye, and it sits within there

for, say, 30 minutes. You pull it out, rinse it,

and it just keeps getting repeated until it gets

to the potency that that's needed. But

ultimately, it is a sort of a dye that takes

place in a little bath. It's quite a cute process.

But you don't just have one bath for one pair.

Our lab has, like, multiple baths with multiple

glass lenses in there.

So the lenses go in the back bath?

Yes. Yeah, they go in the tint bath and then

they. They cook in there for probably about two

to three hours. Then they come out and then they

go into a spectrometer. So the spectrometer tests

the frequencies of light that pass through the

lenses and the ones that don't. So if we pull it

out and we aim for 100% light blocking from 400

to 550 nanometers, which is the. The melatonin

disruption zone, according to the science. And if

it's at 98% or 99%, goes back in the bath for a

few extra minutes to cook a bit more, then it

goes back and it's tested. But 99% of the time,

we know the exact time that each lens needs to be

within the tint bath to achieve the 100% blocking

between those frequencies. So, yeah, they have a

lovely warm bath in a lovely solution, and then

they come out looking like yours.

That's so funny. That's a good question, Twyla. I

didn't actually know that. So it's like the clear

glass absorbs the color and then depending on how

long you leave it in, all the way up to 100%.

Yes. And if you leave it in for like an hour, it

would look like paler orange all the way up. If

you left it in for, like 10 hours, it would be

bright red and you wouldn't see anything red. But

you have to time it just right. It takes a lot of

experimentation, but we managed to have the

recipe. Now that works really well. And the tin

is developed in partnership with our lab partner

as well. So it's proprietary to our glasses,

which is really good.

That is so cool. Okay, that was a good one. I

didn't know That I love thinking of all the

little lenses in there.

I like it.

Yeah. Well, you know, I should get a little bit.

Get the 11 year old to do the podcast questions

going forward. So my son, he succeed. He, he

didn't have a question, but he wanted to say

thank you for using. I don't even know what,

remember what they're called. But the thing that

plugs in, he's like, that's the. He liked it was

the kind that you can use and that it plugs into

anything. You know what I'm talking about? Like

where you go to charge it. What's the little

piece that sticks in called?

Oh, for. On the phones, like the. Is that what

you. Yeah.

Or on the, on the night lights. We have all the

little clip on night lights.

Oh, yes. Yes.

That you would plug in to charge them. Yes, that

you can see how technical I am. Right? The thing

that plugs in to charge it.

Okay.

He was happy because he could use any plug and it

charges.

Yeah.

That was his feedback. That's all I got.

Nice. I'm glad. Yeah. Again, look at him spotting

all these little things.

I said, are you sure you don't want me to double

check that I'm not overreacting, making you wear

orange glasses and make your turn your screen red

all the time? He's like, no, I believe you. I

actually noticed a difference, Mom. Like, okay.

And then Twyla also wanted to know where you got

the name Bon Charge.

Oh, do you know what? That took what, a year to

18 months? That was a mission. That was an

absolute mission. Because we wanted a name that

reflected the products that we currently had, but

also the vision of where we're going as well. So

it all comes down basically. Bon Charge means

good energy. So we're principled around the fact

that we harness the good energies of nature and

then try and block the bad energies of the modern

day world. So it was all about good energy. But

it was just a lot of brainstorming, a lot of

troubleshooting to find a name that, that worked.

So. Yeah, nothing glamorous really. It was just

me and Andy bouncing names around until we found

one that worked. So I wish there was a more

polished story.

No, that's a great, I mean, good energy. That's,

that's a good. And it is, it's a cute little

like, it's a good name. It's a good.

I'm glad you like it.

You did a good job. Yeah, it lands. And it's

funny because whenever I work with, you know,

people who, you know, like my podcast producer or

technical people who don't really know anything

about the content of what I do. They're just

there to help me. A few. A few months in of

listening to all of my. The interviews that I do

and pros, you know, editing all my stuff, they're

like, okay, send me a link for the blue for those

glasses. So I remember I said, my podcast

producer, she. She wrote me back. She's like,

they're not cute. And I was like, okay, try. Try

this one. And I sent her Bon Charge. She was the

ones she was finding. She's like, I understand

why to wear them, but they're not. They don't

have.

They're not cute.

And I'm like, oh, Bon Charges are cute. So I

don't know if that was you, Katie, or what, but

this woman had like a trend level that she was

not willing to go below even to save herself from

the blue light.

I'm here for that as well.

So that was. She was happy.

If it was up to me, they'd all be looking like

lab safety goggles. Thanks for them looking cute.

Yeah, I thought maybe I was like, oh, Andy's.

Yeah, Andy did this with his wife. Maybe that's

why his are so cute. So, yeah, I just wanted to

wrap up. So I alluded to this earlier, but I

really do think that entrepreneurs play such an

important role in the progress of society because

what you identified in order to start this

company was a problem, and now you built a

product to help to solve that problem. In order

to sell the product, you need to educate the

public on that problem. And so we all work

together. And I just want to say that because I

coach a lot of people who. In the health and

wellness space, and they just want to help people

and they don't want to charge any money and they

don't want to start. They're like, oh, the

business stuff, oh, I don't know. But I think it

really matters. And I think it's a really

important, crucial piece of creating a healthy

culture to have companies that are rooted in good

stuff. And so I just wanted to say that because I

know it's hard.

You believe in and you're passionate about it,

and for those people that.

Oh, thanks, Andy. Well, I. I really do love

partnering with you guys. And you run a really

tight ship. You know, your company is really well

run, your marketing is good, all your stuff is

good, and I think that matters. And you're

modeling how to do that in a way that has

integrity and that is overall, you know,

contributing to our culture and to our society.

And so good job. Yeah. It was a pleasure to have

you both back on and, you know, to everyone

listening, if you want to dig in more. Andy. I

made Andy go really deep on his how to build a

successful business in our first interview. So

circle back and listen to that one. But thank you

both, such a pleasure.