E? - What does our ideal client look like?

Matthew: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Mind Field Builder podcast. I'm Matt from Carlin Constructions and as always I'm joined by my co host Hamish from Sanctum Homes.

How you going mate?

Hamish: Good buddy. How are you?

Matthew: Good. I have just got a haircut and I just come back from a massage and I have a whiskey in front of me. So, I'm pretty happy at the moment,

Hamish: you look absolutely fabulous and I can't help but feel that I inspired you last week with my absolutely

fabulous haircut as well, It's a real shame that, this, uh, is not a video that we can't start giving hair tips to people.

Matthew: yeah, well, full disclosure, mine is to see if I need a transplant or not. so that was why I chopped all mine off. this is what being a builder does to you, you lose your hair.

Hamish: I feel like, with all my anxiety and, all my other predispositions, the hair is one of the things that, the illusion that I've got it all together,

Matthew: Yeah, if you're a young builder or young kid wanting to be a builder out there and you want to keep your hair, don't do it.

but we're today doing a solo episode. We're going to sort of try to do these a fair bit and so just throw topics at each other that kind of be a little bit random and just have an open discussion like you sort of would on the phone between each other.

And just, just sort of talk things out loud and where, what our views are and our opinions are. So I just sort of discuss these sort of topics as they come to our brain. So Hamish, what do you think today's topic is? what do you want to

Hamish: Yeah, I mean, I think I called you today. I was, I was, I was just sort of doing a little bit of work and I thought, you know what, it'd be really great to talk about, like, what we feel is our, Perfect client and what does that client look like? I know I've got my ideas of you know, the people that we want to look at.

We have a pretty firm, rule within Sanctum homes that we have a zero dickhead policy. So we, you know, we'd like to have fun with our clients, but there's a lot more, to what I feel is the perfect client. So I thought that, getting a couple of different opinions from, two different builders could be a value.

To people or you and I just going to have a really good chat about, uh, what we feel is like the best client. I'm going to throw it to you, Matt. What do you reckon is the, uh,

Matthew: [00:02:00] The no dickhead policy, like the original document I'll send out to a client.

One of the things is like, we have a no dickhead policy.

It's literally written to those words. Like a relationship between a build and a client is like a marriage.

We have to live with you for 10 years and we have to get along

and in any relationship you dickhead to someone. And look, I'm not always

for any or everyone, and clients aren't always for me, and that's normal, that's okay. Someone that might get along with me might not get along with you, Hayne.

And someone that gets along with you might not get along with me. That's fine. That's like any relationship, and I think that's normal. But when I say dickhead, I might open up a bit here and say things I probably shouldn't, but like, I don't it's little things that like, I'm a seasoned renovator and I've done one renovation when I paid for my bedroom, like, like it's those things that I get really frustrated by with that dickhead policy, like telling me how to do my job when we're just having that initial conversation.

So it's simple things like just being polite to the first year apprentice, like they also are a person. They're doing their job to build your house. Like those, it's little things like that, can make a great client.

Funnily enough, I had an actual with the builders coach I'm working with at the moment, we had to write down another day projects where we have like smiley face, middle face, bad face of projects, clients, and how we sort of viewed them and then how we didn't view them and like literally 99 percent of my clients were in that smiley face.

So I'm also very lucky that I have amazing clients. But I think that's because we vet them like as much as they want to work with us. We want to work with them, and we choose who we work with.

Hamish: I think it's, I the biggest success for any project is laying those foundations for the relationship. And look, your relationship with your client is not just in pre-con, it's not just during construction, it's 10 years after. Probably statistically we have a longer relationship with our clients with most marriages.

Matthew: I think it's when you have, and I know that and you're probably the same thing is when you have your clients playing, like, Oh, do you want to go for a hit of golf? that's the relationship

that you end up with. Like, it's awesome. Like, I can't always go hit, have [00:04:00] a hit of golf because I've got to build your house, but that's what you want to kind of get to. I feel. That's awesome.

Hamish: But all those people wanting to build with me at Sanctum Homes, if you offer me to play golf, I will probably put you in that

sad face, So, sorry. Mountain bike riding? Yeah, tick. Let's go for a surf as well. Surf snowboarding?

Matthew: they're shocked shot. There's sharks,

Hamish: That is a big no. But like, I feel, I feel like, that. Testing of the relationship in pre construction is probably the The setting us up for the biggest success during construction, because we can test relationships where we're talking about cost, where we're talking about deadlines, we're talking about things that impact quality, the things that impact costs.

And we're probably breaking hearts along the way as well. And we're testing that relationship at the time we sign a contract and high five and go into construction. We already know how we operate when things Get a little bit tough,

Matthew: Yeah,

Hamish: so it's not a surprise if we have to have hard conversations because we've had them before and we know we can move, move through them.

But for me, like the best client is someone who values my time who values my expertise and my team's expertise. Someone who is open to listening to my suggestions around cost and level of finish And design ideas and not challenge me when I say to them, look, I don't think you can afford that.

Maybe let's look at this other alternative the flip side of that, we're going to offer our clients exactly the same response to that. You know, it's not just, you know, the sanctum show it's, it's. It's what the clients want as well. We're going to listen.

We're going to challenge. We're going to agree. We're going to do everything we possibly can to give our clients the best possible outcome, for the money they have to spend on their project.

Matthew: [00:06:00] There's so much work that goes into this pre construction side of things before you get to site. And I, I always say that like, if I could get you to your value now with a click of a finger, I would, because it's going to save us all a lot of heartbreak, all a lot of work. But unfortunately, it's just not that straightforward.

Like it does take sort of time and effort. I to have to a very open conversation and there has to be a high level of trust. And I think for me, trust. In any relationship to, you're usually taking that client's biggest asset and most likely the most amount of money they're ever spending potentially ever and it's in our hands and especially in the industry where builders are going bust and there's this negative connotation around builders and it's scary and doom and gloom it's even harder than it ever has been and to take that trust and just embrace it I think that for me is one of the biggest things I need clients to trust me but I need to trust them too.

Hamish: absolutely. And look, I think the most important thing you just touched on that is there's absolutely two way, for successful relationship, you know, the communication needs to be equal both ways as well.

Matthew: Yeah. Like I want them to be around. I don't, I don't, I'm not a builder. I don't know. You're definitely not too where you grab the keys to start and then we'll hand them back when we're finished. Like, we want to see them all the time. We want to be part of their lives. Like, you're part of the family for 24 months.

Hamish: I had a client the other day, tell me that I am now part of their family. And I thought that was the most beautiful thing that's ever been said to me before in my life. and every time I say this client, it's, it's not a shake of the hand. It's a hug, And it's like, thank you so much for building my dream.

Matthew: I love that. but it also like part of me feels guilty because I. whilst we're the ones that pull the strings, like, my team are the ones that build the house. you get what I mean?

Hamish: AB absolutely. I mean, I, I don't know. You do the same thing and you know, when we have our conversations, you're constantly talking about your team, and I say that to the clients when they say, oh, you you've done a great job. I'm like, well, all I've done is put together a great team to execute your project.

So, yeah, you're absolutely right. And look, I think for the most part, my [00:08:00] clients that we've had, particularly in the past three years, have been so incredibly grateful for effort and quality that, you know, my team on site execute, you know,

I did an Instagram post today a rain screen and, you know, it's that level of detail and care that goes into that kind of stuff.

And then to have the clients turn around and say, Hey, Hey, thank you so much. That is beautiful. And I know that it's going to get covered up. I'm never going to say it again. I just, the fact that you guys have spent the time on doing that just makes me so happy.

Matthew: yeah, and when you have a great client, the project is just so much easier to go to, like, you're happy to go out of your way. Like, when a client is amazing, you're happy to do those little extra things you just don't charge for. You're happy to meet them if it doesn't probably suit you.

the team are happy to go on site , and just do their job. And that goes such a long way. Cause when you have the flip side and I've worked in it where you do not like that client and you don't get along it is so hard to get your team to that job because they just do not want to go there.

And it is just this frustration of like, you know, you're doing everything you can to please him. You go out of the way, but they just never, never happy. that makes it hard to go to work sometimes.

Hamish: Tell me a little bit about How do you approach that pre construction phase in your business?

Matthew: All the legwork is in that sort of like dating situation. Like I do refer to it as a date. we grab a coffee and we go on a date. Like, you are dating me. I'm dating you. We want to know each other. We wanna know if they click. I wanna know if we have the same values in life.

I want not just the husband there, I want the wife there. I want anyone there that's part of the family. I want to know who you are, and I just want to get to know you. We don't have to talk about building, it's just simple chit chat. we then go through some conversations around budgets and who you're working with and, and what you want to get out of the project and then that all has to align like it can it's like again, like any relationship, you can be honest with each other if, if you don't care about each other, like there's something missing, like it's not the whole complete package.

not hard. But I think that. Within the first five minutes, you know if they're clients for you or not. [00:10:00] Like you can, a pretty quick judge, I'm a pretty good judge of character. So then my next process would be from that part is we will then head into a bit of reality check phase.

And we'll just make sure that your brief matches your budget. And if it does, and it never does, like that's just the reality of construction. And that's the part where you need to be able to have these hard conversations. And that's the part where vetting your client. starts to pay itself off because that's when you can really be like, unfortunately, guys, you can't afford this.

This is what you can't afford. And this is what this looks like. And you need to be able to have those hard conversations. Like, if I could get it to that number, I would. But unfortunately, your budget's here and your budget isn't, you're brief. And the build cost is not your budget.

we will then take them through that journey. And then we just give them the confidence to go ahead. And, we're generally pretty close at what, what the issue happens is going past that point is like all clients. And I'm doing it myself, my own house is you add, add, add, add, add, add, add, and then you've got to come back and then take him back off again.

So it's from that next stage is where we start to nurture you just develop that rapport. So by the time we hit on site and we've worked with the architect or designer, is that like, if there's a tough conversation up front on the site, but there's that respect and honesty is already been earned. Most of the problems that happen in the building site happen in what the foundations, you'd say, right there, where any variation is most likely to occur.

So, if you hit rock or you have some problems, there's trust already. You haven't just been working with this client for two weeks and all of a sudden, you're in this sticky situation. You feel more comfortable going to them and talking through it. So, uh, yeah, our pre construction side of the thing is, yeah, it is, It's purely just this huge dating situation to see if we're ready to really start dating you to build your house.

Hamish: it's the flip side as well, you know, the clients have an opportunity see if you're the right person for the project, I mean, we follow a very similar kind of process to what you do, but we've kind of named them, you know, we have our hello stage, which is our, basically the stage where we just get to understand.

the project we send out a, you know, editable PDF. They send it back to us with a whole bunch of [00:12:00] information. We then catch up online, talk through their project. We talk about their budget. You know, we have a reasonable idea about the size of the home and what, finishes they want. And we can kind of talk to that and the, the number that they give us, that they want to build it for.

And, more times than not that doesn't quite align, feel though it's at that point that, you know, and I know Dwayne Pierce talks about this a lot. It's our opportunity to then educate clients about what the costs are. I mean, I've got no idea how much it costs to.

So someone up after having their appendix taken out. So I'm relying on the expert to tell me what that costs. I feel it's the same for us to experiment. It's probably the worst analogy that I can give, but we are the experts in building and we've costed hundreds of different projects. We have our finger on the pulse of what things do cost in the current market.

So it's up to us to actually educate the clients on what they can get for their money. And what that looks like from the size of the home, everything up to that point is free. Everything up to that hello point with us free. So I'll have a meet and greet and then we'll have that hello meeting.

After that, we then start charging and probably much like yourself. because it's at that point that we're going to spend close to a hundred hours giving you, Um, and again, we value our time and we value our expertise. and I have this sort of sales pitch to the client saying, if we can't save you that money and then some, we're not doing the project justice.

Matthew: And I think with the cost though, the project doesn't go to construction. We lose out. Like, I'll be honest about that.

Hamish: I was literally just about to get to that. Like, it's actually, if we signed someone up to our pre con we're making the commitment to get that project to site, because it's at that point where we go to size, where we're going to our money. We basically lose money during, during lockdown. The pre con stage, but soon as the relationship becomes transactional, there's an expectation around deliverables.

Like we're expecting something from the client, they're expecting something from [00:14:00] us. It is acknowledgement that they value our time, which is a huge thing for us. So we're also then going to respect their project and put it on a pedestal and then try and get that to construction because it's at that point.

Where we start making your money.

Matthew: and, I know you make your money back, like you make that client back that money. I think just within an engineering meeting and changing a few things from the design and engineering, you make that money back to X.

Hamish: and do you know what, like we've actually, the biggest savings of money that we've actually found is when we run things through PHPP and then we can start actually seeing like cost of construction and cost of performance. And it's at that point we say to the clients, what is the minimal viable product for you?

the view that we're always going to deliver a high performing home, it's just how high performing. Is it in passive house territory or is it in PHI low energy territory? So, we have a cutoff point of the minimum, , level of thermal performance we would offer a client. And that's generally, you know, when we sort of go outside of pH ILO energy territory.

But , we've managed to hit pH ILO energy territory with double glazed windows and a, and a 90 mil frame. And we wouldn't have found that out if we hadn't have had it all modeled and done that work in pre construction and then alone is saving the client, the fee that we charge them.

Matthew: like we are industry professionals. We carry the most risk. we're the ones that have to put what is drawn in the plan and a lot of the time they don't make sense. We have to actually build that thing. We have to bring that to life. And I think there's now for the first time pretty much probably forever, that builders are really starting to be recognized for what they do.

I think they're really starting to be valued by one, architects and designers, and

the good ones are just so quick to get you to jump on board because they need you, and they understand that they don't know what they don't know. But also the good clients, like the good clients value you. They want you to be part of the project but talking on budget and this is now probably a bit contentious, for me, the perfect client needs to have money

and I'm going to be open about it. Like [00:16:00] they need money to be able to afford what they want to build.

Hamish: It is such a contentious topic. And, and you know what, I'm just going to preface this by saying, I wish we could build for everyone.

I really do. I wish everybody could afford a passive house and three and a half bedroom, double garage, one or two bathrooms, nice afresco area. And, I wish everyone could afford that. But the reality is not even many people can afford to actually build in this current environment. So finances, one of the things that we talk about from day one, how are you paying for it? Have you got your bank free approval? Have you got cash in the bank? We have that narrative from day one.

Matthew: it's not that like I'm only picking projects that are like over this amount, like money that you want to spend needs to meet the budget. Yeah. Or the design. That's all. don't have to have millions and millions to build the house. I've got projects in the one point somethings.

I've got projects that are 600, 000 and 400, 000. They're vastly different. But the brief matches the budget. work we do, we do build architectural beautiful homes. They're not a standard cookie cutter home. So they do come at a cost. But then all custom homes come at an extra cost. That's it.

Hamish: we're probably straight into a territory of like, uh, you know, high performance versus, custom homes and you know, I think that's a topic, you know, probably another topic. that we should, we should touch on at some point.

Matthew: we, we definitely will, but I'm fine to say that my clients like, you need to have the money for the project you want to do. that's what my ideal client looks like. it's just a harsh reality of where we are in this industry.

Whether I like it or not, and I agree with it or I don't, That's just something that is part of my tick approval. Can you meet that budget?

Hamish: I think it's, probably a good point to kind of round out the discussion and I want to just talk about like one of my end goals at the end of a project. One of my end goals at the end of any project when we hand it over is to know that that client is going to send me pictures of the house, is going to invite me over for a barbecue, and in 12 months [00:18:00] time is going to tell me how much they still love the home.

Matthew: I've got one client that constantly messaged me photos of their garden. I love it. And I'm not the biggest gardener, but I could. It's awesome to still hear from them. It's awesome to still run into clients that you haven't seen for two years. And

Hamish: It's nice to be able to walk down the street and if you actually see those clients, that you don't turn around and run the other way.

Matthew: Oh, and I've definitely had them, like I'm not going to lie. I think that's how I learned, like, to find the right client was learning from my mistakes and probably in three years I will learn, have more mistakes to be able to affect my clients even further.

And I hope clients have the information out there to be able to vet us further and understand to ask the right questions, which is probably a topic we can do as well as just what clients, if you're a client, what should you be asking your builder?

Hamish: You know what I reckon? Let's leave it there. And, and with, with the lasting, with the last thought of, uh, communication is absolute king.

Matthew: Yep. Totally agree, mate. I think this might be one of our last ones before Christmas. So by the time people are listening

to this, it's probably 20, it definitely is 2024, I'd say Yeah so, enjoy your night, go have another whisky mate, and I'm sure we'll chat very shortly.

Hamish: See mate.

Matthew: See ya buddy.