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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Tired of living in constant go mode? Learn how to shift from survival to steadiness using the science of calm and the wisdom of your body. Hi, and welcome to the UWorld Order Showcase Podcast, where we feature life, health, transformational coaches, and spiritual entrepreneurs stepping up to be the change that they seek in the world. I'm your host, Jill Hart, the coaches alchemist, on a mission to help coaches and entrepreneurs amplify their voice, monetize their message.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: and get visible.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: If you're ready to start attracting premium clients without chasing algorithms or hunting people down like a banshee on a mission, head over to Coachesalchemist.com and schedule your free client acquisition audit. It's the first step to building a business where your clients seek you out, rather than you having to hunt them down. Today, we are chatting with Renee Sabina Kieseman. Renee is an educator, therapist, and founder of Love2Learn.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: A multidisciplinary clinic that blends neuroscience, somatic awareness, and heart-centered leadership with nearly 30 years of experience. She helps parents and professionals move from burnout to balance, teaching them how to regulate their nervous system, lead with compassion, and create lasting embodied change. Welcome to the show, Renee. It's great to have you with us.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Thank you, Jill. It's great to be with you.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: All right, let me ask you the big question. What's the most significant thing, in your opinion, as individuals, we can do to make an impact on how the world is going?

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Renee Sabina Keisman: I think the single thing that we can do is…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Be compassionate in our own… in our own lives.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: With ourselves starting, and then the people closest to us.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: It really does have a ripple effect, doesn't it?

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah, it does. It does. You can't give it if you don't have it, right? And so, if you can't show yourself compassion, and you show yourself grace, then when the rubber hits the road.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: You're gonna be hard-pressed to be able to give that to those that you really want to. Your children, your family, those that you serve.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah, and that's truly the essence of

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Renee Sabina Keisman: What we try to do in this next chapter of evolution and applied behavior analysis and training

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Up-and-coming leaders to go out into the world and provide

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Early intervention and applied behavior analysis to families and children is… is leading with a compassionate.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Voice, a compassionate heart.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: We as behavior analysts are trained on data, and it's very scientific, and we became behavior analysts because we care about data, and we care about making progress, and

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Pairing that, and blending that.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: With presence, and somatic awareness, and trauma-informed care.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: is, I think, what takes a beautiful science, applied behavior analysis, and truly, adds the grease

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Renee Sabina Keisman: To truly, make it fly.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Yeah, it's what makes it…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: go from the theoretical world into the practical applied world, and I love how you… you're focusing on parents, because I think often parents get…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: get caught up in the… it's the either-or. You know, they… they… they go out and they deal in the real world, and then they have to come back and deal with their kids, and that often… there's a disconnect between how we function in the world with our peers.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: And our clients, and our employees, and then how we deal with our children. And we forget, often, that, you know, we're raising little human beings who are also going to have to make this bridge into a different world, not this safe cocoon that they're in.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Or, sometimes it's not even a safe cocoon. They're being traumatized in whatever way they came here to be traumatized in.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah. It's interesting what goes into that, you know, as I work with other behavior analysts and speech-language pathologists and occupational therapists.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: We have so much knowledge in our head, and we have so much beautiful theory and science and new applications coming out. And we also have a learning history in how we were spoken to when we were raised.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And that plays a part in how we end up executing our knowledge, our wisdom, and our lived experience into our behavior. And so it is humbling, I think, for many people that are highly trained.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: to know where their edges are, and where improvements need to be made. And truly, also, what fascinates me is how our nervous system interfaces with all of that.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And regulating our nervous system so that we can align our behaviors with our values, and what we know we want to do, and how we want to go out into the world, and how we want to treat our children, and our coworkers, and…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And the feedback that our nervous system gives us when we're trying to execute all of those

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Visions of ourself and our behavior.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Does it also help to…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Because we do sometimes compartmentalize our different roles in the world, does it help us to bring them back

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: together to be more cohesive. To me, it seems like when…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: You're going through these different segmented experiences,

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: on a daily basis, I mean, it's like, I go to work, I'm this person, I come home, I'm this person, and I'm this person, and then I go to a meeting or an event, and I'm somebody else, or I meet up with my friends, I'm somebody else. Does it help… does it seem like that that

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Is part of the cause of anxiety that's so frequent in our community, and the distress that we feel in our bodies when that anxiety starts, like, coming up because of the disassociation that we're experiencing in all of these different roles.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah, I mean, I think it can for certain people. I mean, I definitely know, as a parent myself, when I come home, I have a little bit of a mindset of, like, oh, okay, now I'm going to be able to

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Renee Sabina Keisman: relax, or reset, and yet… and yet I have a child in which that needs support, you know, and so that… that…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Those… those messages don't always align.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And when you think you're off duty, you're really on duty. And so, I think it's aligning… for me, it's aligning expectations.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And having realistic expectations of when I'm gonna be able to truly take care of myself.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And building in space, To take care of myself.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: So that I can show up.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: in every environment, the way that I want to.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: But I think… I think we all want to integrate it. I think we all want to show up.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: in that same space in all those places, but I think there are multiple…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: whether it's your learning history, or your expectations, or… or your planning. You know, when you're juggling working and being a parent, a lot of planning has to go into,

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Into your day, and

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And it's really easy to move from, okay, it's all lined out, that's great, we have it together, we're an A-plus student, to, oh, wait a minute, we just missed something, or… or, wait, where did the soccer shoes go, and have to hustle back.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And, and I think having enough, bandwidth,

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Renee Sabina Keisman: again, back to the nervous system to kind of laugh about it and be like, okay, you know, I guess we weren't meant to be there on time. That's okay, let's go get those shoes and move on. And so…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: you know, I do talk with so many parents and new parents, and it's a lot of moms.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: in work, and even outside of work. And, it is, parenting is…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: It's much harder than anyone ever imagined.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Does it get any easier?

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Renee Sabina Keisman: No, right? It's a skill set, and the energy it takes to show up, to show up and to hold space.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: for the most important people in your life. It's most of our priority, you know, what's most important to most people's lives are the well-being of our children, our family, our community, our parents.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And we hold ourselves to high standards, most of us do. Again, especially people that are versed in all the things that we're talking about. And so, the standards are pretty high.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Allowing yourself to have grace. I was… I ran into a young woman

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: yesterday at the grocery store, because that's where I run into everybody. Her mom, who's a… she's been…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: A dear friend for… 25 years now? We met in Colorado.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: through something or another, but we've… we've continued our relationship, and we helped them move to the Valley, and then they moved out now. Anyway, so her daughter is an adult now, she's 28.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: 27, 28, somewhere in there. She just had… she has 2 sons, they're all under 5, and she just had a little girl who was born very prematurely.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: And she has been through the ringer for the last 4 months. This child, they… the hospitals out here are not really all that great, and so she's been going down to Salt Lake, which is, like, a

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: 4-hour drive for her, or then going over to Boise, which is the other direction, 4 hours. And she's just… she's so worn out, and it's all… all she wants is just to, like, go home and nurse her baby, and have her baby, like.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: thrive, but she's… she's being pulled in all of these directions, and I mean, she was… I was having a conversation with her just about, how are you doing?

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: As a human being, you know, and she's just, like, tears are welling up in her eyes, she's like, I'm barely holding it together.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: It's…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: So hard, and it's… and when they're that young, you're not sleeping. You're not sleeping, you know? It's difficult to feed yourself, you know, in a… in a…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: In a time and a space where your digestion can actually work properly, because you need to… you need to be calm, and you need to regulate, and you need to be present for your own food consumption, and…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: You know, in our society, in our culture, and the way that it's set up, many… not many people have those types of supports that would allow us to

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Take care of ourselves in the way that we need to in order to…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: To have the strength and the bandwidth and the resilience to…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: To show up in… at those times with…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: With the energy that we want to. It's hard.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: It is hard, and it's nice…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: When you have some place for people to go, that they can…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: They can connect with others who are on the same journey that you're on.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: And, I'm a big proponent of communities, because it helps… you're not… as the founder of the community, you're not the one that everybody has to learn from or turn to. You can learn from each other, and you can support each other. And, you know, in my communities, it's…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: It's so exciting when I see people interacting with each other, and they've kind of left me out.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Wow, look at this! It's great! It's working! Yeah.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Everybody's helping each other to succeed, and I'm a big proponent of a rising tide lifts all ships. I'll share what I got with everybody, because it just… it's what makes the world a better place.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah, that's one of the… The elements of trauma-informed care is that you're with your peers.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: God.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: That is what people need, is to be with peers, and to be seen by their peers, and to be supported by their peers.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: And knowing that you're not the only one, because in this… we're so connected, but we're so alone right now. And to…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: To go through an experience like my young friend's going through, or even just day-to-day life, it's difficult.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Yeah. Two…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: to, as women, primarily women. You know, men… men do struggle too, but I think women have traditionally held all of these roles that they're just, like, they're trying to fit them all together, and

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: they're supposed to just, like, smile, and it's all great, and nothing ever goes wrong, and instead of just being like, yeah, today was not the best day. We couldn't find the shoes, yep, we're 15 minutes late to the soccer game.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Just let them on the field and let them have fun.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah. I just can't…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: I can't stress myself out about shoes when… you know, there's so many other things on my plate, too. Like, you know.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Am I gonna have groceries? Do I have to drag all the kids through the grocery store?

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: On the way home!

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah, yeah, it is, it is. There's… there's a lot to put together, and there's so many distractions. You know, I think, and there's so many distractions. So, there's so much calling for our attention.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And so, yeah, really leaning into compassion, and ultimately also making choices as to what you're gonna prioritize, and what's important to you, and

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And also knowing when those things are gonna change. Like, for me, I didn't cook for a very long time. You know, it was taken. It was… that was… mommy's cooking, watch me dial the numbers.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: That's the best!

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Good with it.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: gonna come, and didn't I… didn't I cook that Indian food so deliciously by the end of that meal? And and, you know, and then there comes times where it's like, oh my gosh, that's not feeling good for us anymore. That's not…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: in alignment with my health goals. That's not…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: I feel like that… that chapter has… has sunsetted. Now I need to level up, and do something a little bit different. And so, it's changing, right? It's always in motion.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: They're seasons.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Seasons, I love that. Yeah. There are seasons for all of it.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And teaching children, and… and fellow… Parents.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: about the seasons, and leaning into those seasons, and… and kind of… I think one… one of the things that I've always done is to look for

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Renee Sabina Keisman: the… the purpose of being in a certain season. It's like, okay, I'm here. There's got to be some value. I'm sure there's something I need to learn here. It's why I'm here.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And… and being comfortable, because I believe and I witness for myself and other people, that anxiety is often created because you think you're supposed to be somewhere.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: That you're not.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And really, we use an applied behavior analysis, acceptance and commitment therapy, and acceptance. You know, it's accepting, I'm here. I'm here, this is where I'm supposed to be. This is the journey I'm supposed to be on, and I'm here for a good reason, and now let's make some value out of this, and

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Renee Sabina Keisman: let me take… take it forward. So,

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Renee Sabina Keisman: So yeah, I mean, I think people and women and parents

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Renee Sabina Keisman: We need that reflected back to them.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: I used to be very, very much…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: a Bible thumper. And one of my favorite verses was, and it came to pass…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Everything is always and forever. It always passes. And then you move into a different season.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: And a different experience. But you can have permission to enjoy the experience you're having right this moment, without worrying about what's gonna come next, because it's going to come. No matter what you do, or how much you worry about it.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: There's gonna be another experience to be had.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: You can choose how you're going to interpret these experiences, and the stories you're going to tell around them, and if you've had experiences that you've been talking about in the past that don't impact your life positively as the present, then make up a different story about that.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: And carry it forward, and it will change your life!

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah, it makes me think about the families that we serve when they're…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: They… they first come to us, and

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Renee Sabina Keisman: They don't have a diagnosis, they're… they just know that their child is not meeting their developmental milestones.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: I don't know.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And the panic that they experience. Sometimes grief and fear and anxiety. And, keeping those concepts

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Renee Sabina Keisman: close during those times, when there's just uncertainty. And then we know uncertainty, because we've been living uncertainty for a long time.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: in our adult lives here in the last 10 years, we know what it's like to see political movement, to see COVID, to see so much happen, and even to walk our children through those transitions.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: There needs to be, and it's such an abstract concept of, this too shall pass.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And that this, and I often tell my daughter this, like, this feels really big right now, but in 10 years, this will just, you know, be a dot on the map of what happens.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And sharing, you know, helping families

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Helping families shift out of that fight-and-flight space.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: to be able…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: comparison, too. I think people get caught up in judging… judging the progress of where their kids are, or where they feel they should be in their careers, and

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: And comparing to other people, but you don't know what those other people have gone through, and they're in a different situation, and yeah, maybe everything looks rosy on the outside to somebody that doesn't know the other things that they're going through, because nobody is… nobody is living the ideal life

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: For them, they always want something different.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah, it's what makes us human. It is, it is. I was just reading this, newsletter by a friend of mine of, about the concept of when success doesn't feel the way you thought it was gonna feel. You know, maybe you've… you've hit all your numbers, but it… it…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: still doesn't… Fill you, the way you thought you would be filled.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And so… We do, we often…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: As humans can think the grass might be greener on the other side, or…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: They must be fine because their child… their child is making friends more easily, or their child is seeming to…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Fit in.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: more easily.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And, and they're… they're often… if there's strengths in one area, they're weaknesses in others, and it's just, again, it's our humanity.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And having compassion, and some humor, I think, also for ourselves and our process, and our… Our journey.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: It's tough.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Celebrating the little wins that happen every day, gratitude goes a long way.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: to making us feel better and calming our nervous system down. If we teach our body to recognize, hey, pause a really big deal, and even if you just go in the bathroom and look in the mirror and tell yourself.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Well done! You did it today! For the little things, like… Yeah.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: I have some big goals for things that I've got coming up. But, you know, I've accomplished some big things so far, and I hardly ever talk about it.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: And it's like…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: you know, that's a big deal! Some of the things I've done, you know, I've… I've hit the bestseller list with a book.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: That was published. Beautiful. That's a big deal.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Congratulations. A lot of people haven't done that! Which book is that? Tell me, tell me what book is.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Sacred Redesign, it was a group book, it was a collaborative effort.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Beautiful.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: It was…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: It's a great book, and it was a lot of fun, the community that came together to create that book, and to make it a bestseller, because there's… there's ways to do it, but we all worked together to accomplish that, and so, to me, that's a really big deal.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: The podcast, it's a big deal, you know? We're…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: I've interviewed almost 600 guests on this podcast.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: We've had more than a million downloads.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: X… Those are… those are big numbers!

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah, that is…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: I'm gonna, like, casually brush off.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yes, yes, and we forget that, right? We lose track of that so much.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: my husband and I were having a conversation about our daughter, because she had asked, she said, Mom, I want you to tell me you're proud of me more. And I said, is that something you're wanting? And I can do that for you. And then…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: My husband said, you know, it's one thing to say, it's…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: that you're proud of her, and I'm thinking, if she's asking for that, it's meaning she's needing it, so I'm gonna give that, for sure. But the second step to that is, what is she proud of herself for, as you just did, and learning how to

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Renee Sabina Keisman: to do that for yourself. So, at night, we take turns. You know, one night, I'll start with what I'm proud.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Of her for the day, before we go into our gratitude, because we do gratitude as well. And then last night, it was like, okay, you start. What happened today that you're proud of yourself for? And… and those are skills. Those are skills, to do. I think, it's much more socially accepted

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Renee Sabina Keisman: I have found to talk about what's not working well, because people

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Renee Sabina Keisman: can still get very intimidated when you… I love the words brag or celebration, I love those practices.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: They feel good for me, they inspire… I feel inspired when I witness you talking about your celebrations, and then that makes me think about my celebrations. It's contagious.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: in… in general culture, it isn't always welcomed. And so I do think… I do think we are at a turning point, culturally, where it is becoming more common

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Renee Sabina Keisman: to celebrate these practices of pointing out what makes us feel good and what's going well for us. We actually started at our company… we haven't done it for a while, but we used to start meetings, with what we call celebrations. One, because sometimes we wouldn't even know

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Renee Sabina Keisman: the good things that were happening, you know, across the desk from each other. It's like, oh, I'm glad, like, thanks for leaning in on that. And then we… we went to, let's talk about the celebrations, and let's talk about the challenges, and that was… that was equally good, because creating space for both.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: So.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: And then you're not always focusing on the bad.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: I can fix, you know…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: it's not even the bad, it's just the things that didn't go as expected, and so then you're just focusing on, this is a problem that needs to be solved.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Versus this… This is a character reference for whoever brought the thing up.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Well said. Well said on that, yeah.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: So, how do you work with your clients? Is it in community? Is it in groups? Is it one-on-one?

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Thanks for asking. So, we have a clinic, in Huntington Beach, California.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Perfect.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Where we see clients Until 7 years of age.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And that is a small element of who we serve. The majority of the people we serve are in the home.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: In the community and in the school.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: So our… staff go out to see them. We have

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Renee Sabina Keisman: what's called a three-tier staff. We have behavior analysts that oversee all of the programs. We have mid-tier staff. Some have master's degrees, some have bachelor's degrees. All of our mid-tiers are in pursuit of becoming board-certified behavior analysts. Some of them have been with us, our company, for 10 years. Now, those people, we have two of them right now that are sitting for their

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Well, yes, they've studied, they've collected all their hours, and they're waiting to take their BCBA exam.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And so our mid-tiers are incredibly knowledgeable. And then we have our frontline staff. Some call them RBTs, registered behavior technicians, other call them ABAT, or behavior interventionists. And these are people I started at this level.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: They're people that are either in college or coming out of college,

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Renee Sabina Keisman: or… or in a completely different phase of their life. I… I once had,

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Renee Sabina Keisman: someone, you know, in much more of her senior, stage in life, who was a fabulous behavior interventionist. I mean, she… she did more than our college kids. She had just so much energy, and she brought so much life to that family. She… she stays in my mind. But typically.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: the front line is a stepping stone to get your foot in the door. A lot of times when people find us, they don't… they've never heard of Applied Behavior Analysis. It is one of the newer science… sciences.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: there are also a lot of people that, once they learn about the science, and they do the work, like I did, they ask, like, okay, how can I do this more? This is really interesting. And they go back to school, and they get a master's degree in

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Renee Sabina Keisman: applied behavior analysis, and then go and do their BCBA coursework, and so…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: for us, I mean, there's a huge shortage of board-certified behavior analysts and behavior interventionists throughout the entire world. There are constantly families waiting in every city and state for these services, because we just can't hire fast enough.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And we can't train fast enough to meet the needs, of what's out there.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: So how would people, like, come to you if they… and why would they come to you specifically? Like, if they had a child that wasn't meeting certain standards in school, or they were acting out, or…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah, so chronologically, I'll just kind of take you through the different entry points. Very commonly, you know, a parent might notice that their child isn't speaking, or moving, or,

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Renee Sabina Keisman: or attending in a way that they think they should be at a certain age, and they will then go to the pediatrician, and then in California, we have, we have places called regional centers that help find vendors, which we are one of, to

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Give a developmental evaluation. And so, in those developmental evaluations, we have a speech pathologist, an occupational therapist, and a behavior analyst.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Come together to look at All the elements of

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Renee Sabina Keisman: of their development, and then measure, you know, where are they chronologically versus where are they developmentally. And some of those

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Renee Sabina Keisman: learners will not qualify for any services. The parents will be greatly relieved to say, you know, there might be a slight delay, but there's nothing to worry about, just keep doing this or that, and on they go.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And then there will be other children who will show a delay, and then they will move into an early intervention program.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: there… there doesn't need to be any diagnosis, not all children will ever have a diagnosis when they go into that program. It's a program that's really intended to close the gap of developmental and chronological performance.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Now, some, a small fraction of those

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Renee Sabina Keisman: children and learners will go on to get a diagnosis, of autism, Downs… well, Down syndrome, they know, and other developmental delay.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Or speech delay, or… or other learning difference.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Families also come to us once they have a diagnosis, after they've

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Renee Sabina Keisman: they've received one. We then take them through insurance, or private pay.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: So that we can do it in a traditional ABA program.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And when I say traditional, I don't mean, like, traditional in the sense of the types of ABA. ABA has had a long,

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Renee Sabina Keisman: A long and,

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Renee Sabina Keisman: While it's still a newer science, it's gone through many phases of its own evolution, and it… it has grown into, a much softer

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Renee Sabina Keisman: application than it started in, in the beginning,

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Renee Sabina Keisman: of the science, it was… it was a little bit more rigidly, taught and disseminated.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: I actually got introduced to it in that form, and got turned off, and went away, and became a special education teacher, and said, that's not for me, but I still really love this population, and I wanted to

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Renee Sabina Keisman: contribute in a different form, and somehow the field just called me back, and

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Renee Sabina Keisman: I got introduced to a different application through verbal behavior. We were studying Vincent Carbone and Mark Sundberg.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And Dr. James Pad,

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Oh my gosh, I'm saying his name wrong.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Sundberg and… I haven't said it in a while, but, those that know what I'm talking about will know what I'm talking about.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And… and James will email me at some point and make fun of me for not being able to recall the podcast.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: But…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: I hate it when that happens, and it doesn't happen to me, too.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Oh, yeah.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: I know that person, and their name is…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah, yeah. Partington, James Partington, oh my god.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Good job.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: I knew, I knew it was gonna come, it was like… But anyway, they came out with, a verbal behavior approach, which was…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: what I… which… what is what brought me back to the field of ABA, and I said, okay, I can get behind this. This makes sense. It really focused on play-based learning and natural environment teaching, and it really…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: It really, saw the child, as… as… a small.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Human being that had needs and wants and desires and…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And they wanted to respect their dignity, and give them voice, and…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: you know, the way that you begin that training is truly by giving them voice, and developing a relationship with them, and saying, what is it that you want? You know, let's get you some words, let's get you some language, so that first and foremost, we can get you the things you love most. Cookies, and chunks and tickles, and all of that fun stuff.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And then… and then we'll teach them other things, so, that brought me in.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: to it, and you know, as time has gone on, I've been in the space for 30 years, and now we're bringing in somatic awareness.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: and trauma-informed care, which really, for me, extends that work. It gives new language, it gives, new tools. We were just doing a training, we have something called CSTs, clinical skills trackers, where

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Our supervisors go out and give feedback to our frontline staff on what skills they're really doing well, and what tools they're using well, and what tools that they can really

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Renee Sabina Keisman: stretch themselves on.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And we recently just added, an element to our CSTs that talk about somatic awareness, and talk about trauma-informed care, and how… how to teach that, and how to deliver that, and what that really looks like. And it was… it was such great feedback from…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: One of the therapists that had trained at a more traditional

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Renee Sabina Keisman: setting years ago, and she's like, oh my god, if they would have taught me this when I first got here. And that's always, like, you know you're on the right track when you're getting that feedback. And I felt the same way. You know, that language wasn't around when I first came in, but it makes sense, and it resonates, and it really…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: it really, ties in when you're talking about people, That, have…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: specific sensory needs. I mean, I think we all have sensory needs that… that we don't tend to. Some of us are a little bit more sensitive than others.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: This language allows us to attend to those needs, and to respect, that the behavior isn't… it isn't defiance.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: It isn't because they don't want to. It's because, they're just regulated, and they need some help re-regulating and co-regulating with you, and they need your help, and they don't need you to be angry because you're not doing what…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: you know, they're not doing what you want them to do right now. They need you to help them, get back to their center so that they… they can…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: participate in the offerings that are happening. And so, I find it such a beautiful

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Renee Sabina Keisman: addition to the work that we've already been doing, and I love to talk about it, and I love to share it with our team members. I don't think they can get enough of it either. We…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: We hire twice a month, and I give a guided meditation to each one of our new hires, or the groups, when they come in.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Mostly because I… I have to apologize. They… they get 60 hours of training before they see any learner, and it's a lot for them. It's a lot of concept, it's a lot of…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: tools and techniques, and it… it… it doesn't feel the way I necessarily want it to feel, and so I'm always apologizing, like, you know, our… our funders need you to have at least 40 hours, and

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And I know it can feel a lot, and so I… I work to disseminate, more information very gently through a guided meditation, so it doesn't feel like I'm adding anything more to that pile that they have, but they get the vision of

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Renee Sabina Keisman: how…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: How it will look for them to show… show up in a family's life and a child's life when they're regulated, and when they're centered, and what they can offer to a child and a family from that space of regulation and compassion.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: and relationship-focused interacting. And…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: A lot of times, people are really moved by it, because it's not something that they're used to experiencing in a training environment, and

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And they can feel it. It's a visceral, felt-sense experience for them. And, and it really reminds them of why they… why they took the job, why they're… they're in the role that they're in. And,

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Renee Sabina Keisman: I really encourage them to come back to that in those… those hard moments, because it is really hard working in the home environment when there's nobody… there's no door to go knock one, being like, question, this isn't working the way I thought it was supposed to be. You have to hold that. You have to be like, oh, that failed miserably.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And I'm gonna have to tuck that away, and contain that, and move on to something else, and then take that to my supervisor later, and… and that's hard for all of us.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: But they do it. They do it every day, and, you know, and and… and they don't have somebody, you know, after that session that witnessed that, that could say, I'm really proud of you, because you did blank, blank, and blank. I mean, I remember

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Renee Sabina Keisman: years ago, as a therapist myself, crying in my car after a session. And it was funny because I was being videotaped, too, and I… I was positive that everyone could see

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Renee Sabina Keisman: how upset I was, because I didn't do it the way that I wanted to do it, and it was actually such an amazing experience to rewatch that video, to notice that I did have composure, that even though I was dying inside, you couldn't see it on my face. And that was… that was a lesson, too, because when you're young.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: You don't…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: You don't know these things, and you want so badly to do it right, and to do it well, and to make that impact, so…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Can I…

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Can I ask you a question at this point?

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Are you?

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Are you… when you talk about your, your transformative program, the Inner Science of Change, is it… are you looking for people who want to become techs?

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Or are you looking for people who want help with their children. I… Or both.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah, I mean, we do both, obviously. So, when we hire, hiring, we…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: in this world, for any… any type of work, in our field, is after COVID, it got very difficult, to find people that want to be in the setting. I think people just didn't want to really be

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Renee Sabina Keisman: they wanted computer jobs, or they wanted a little bit more space after COVID, understandably so. And so, yes, we're definitely looking, for people who are interested in working with children and with families.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: at the frontline level, the mid-tier level, as well as, the top level of BCBAs, speech therapists and occupational therapists.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And we… we are taking families, so… We do both.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Awesome. And you're… Thinking about starting a school community to support these families?

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: I'm gonna put you on.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Are you talking about the… are you talking about the school committee that you were talking about earlier?

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Yeah, yeah!

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Renee Sabina Keisman: You know, I… I have in the program, and when you say school, people are probably thinking S-C-H-O-O-L, they're probably thinking, am I opening up a school?

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Renee Sabina Keisman: we're not opening up a school, no, but I think what you're talking about is the online community, and yes, we were talking about that earlier, and we are always looking for ways to up-level

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Renee Sabina Keisman: First and foremost, how we're training people coming in.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: We want it to be… we want it to feel the way we want it to feel, which is a good feeling. And my understanding is… and my experience with the school community.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: S-K-O-O-L.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: F, thank you for spelling it. My experience with it, it is, it does bring community into, into the fold.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: And so that would very much be in alignment with a positive training experience. The more we find… we find better retention, actually, when our cohorts, when we hire them, if they bond together and they're able to really support each other, they… they're able to…

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Renee Sabina Keisman: to tolerate the challenge of working in a home environment, and get through that, because then they have someone to communicate with, and being like, I just had a rough session,

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Renee Sabina Keisman: what do you think? I mean, they can always call their supervisor and do that, but a lot of times, people want to call their peers before they call their supervisor and say, I think I made a mistake, or I need some help. They go to the peers first. So, yes.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: I would say that is on… on the list of things to investigate, because I think that would be beneficial for our… the people that onboard, as well as, supporting the families.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Yeah.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: Thank you so much for joining me, Renee. I'm excited for where you're going.

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Renee Sabina Keisman: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate you. You're easy to talk to.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: I try.

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: So, people can learn more about your transformative program, The Inner Science of Change, at lovetolearnconsulting.com, and we will be sure and put that in the show notes below. Thanks for tuning in today to the UWorld Order Showcase Podcast. If you're ready to amplify your voice, monetize your mission, and get visible, your next step

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Jill Hart-The Coach's Alchemist: to attracting premium clients is to head over to thecoachesalchemist.com and schedule your free client acquisition audit. Be sure to join us for our next episode as we share what others are doing to raise the global frequency. And remember, change begins with you. You have all the power to change the world. Start today and get visible.