1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,160 Adam Outland: Welcome Action Catalyst listeners. 2 00:00:02,280 --> 00:00:05,990 Today we have an extraordinary guest with Dean Koontz. 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:12,360 He is a bestselling author, having published over 105 novels. 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,140 Over 500 million copies have now been sold. 5 00:00:16,350 --> 00:00:24,450 He has 14 hard covers and 16 paperbacks reaching the number one position and has had a number of those books, uh, trans. 6 00:00:24,935 --> 00:00:30,875 To movies as well, starring the likes of Jeff Goldblum, Alicia Silverstone, and Ben Affleck. 7 00:00:30,935 --> 00:00:33,964 So we're really pleased to have, uh, Dean Koontz on today. 8 00:00:34,235 --> 00:00:35,535 Great to meet you as well. 9 00:00:35,825 --> 00:00:53,096 Well, we're really excited when I, I, I heard you were coming on in part because in my early days I started with an eagerness to author and write books, and so always any opportunity to meet someone who has written, uh, even close to as many books as you have, there's, there's always a litany of questions to. 10 00:00:53,575 --> 00:01:00,295 But before we dive into to some thoughts on writing, I wanted to dig in a little bit more to, to your story and how it started. 11 00:01:00,355 --> 00:01:05,364 Um, Shippensburg, Pennsylvania, where geographically is Shippensburg, 12 00:01:05,575 --> 00:01:08,935 Dean Koontz: it's sort of, I guess you would say it's South Central. 13 00:01:09,085 --> 00:01:14,545 It's a small town in Amish country, not terribly far from Lancaster. 14 00:01:14,664 --> 00:01:18,115 And it was a, uh, state college, uh, mainly it. 15 00:01:18,685 --> 00:01:22,524 There to turn out teachers for high school, elementary school. 16 00:01:22,675 --> 00:01:28,104 Uh, and I went there to be a teacher, uh, which, uh, I had no idea what I was going to be. 17 00:01:28,285 --> 00:01:31,045 I was a kid who came from such a poor family. 18 00:01:31,045 --> 00:01:35,185 I never imagined I would go to college, and yet there I was. 19 00:01:35,820 --> 00:01:38,520 Adam Outland: If you don't mind, I'd love like a, a flashback even further. 20 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,030 I mean, did you just grow up thinking, Hey, I'm gonna be an author. 21 00:01:42,030 --> 00:01:43,050 I just love writing. 22 00:01:43,500 --> 00:01:48,179 Dean Koontz: In fact, there were no books in our house because they were considered a waste of time. 23 00:01:48,479 --> 00:01:56,340 My dad was a violent alcoholic and, uh, we lived in, uh, what was basically a two-story dark paper roof shack. 24 00:01:56,580 --> 00:02:01,110 We never knew if we'd be there next week or we'd still have a roof over our heads. 25 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,009 So I never thought too much about what I would do or what I would. 26 00:02:05,385 --> 00:02:06,405 It seems strange. 27 00:02:06,465 --> 00:02:14,775 I was a relatively happy kid, especially when my father wasn't around and I could find ways to, uh, to entertain myself. 28 00:02:15,165 --> 00:02:21,885 And by the time I was able to read when I was about three or four, my mother got r she was most of her life. 29 00:02:22,185 --> 00:02:32,475 So I was sent to a friend of my mother's, and this funeral was much older and her children had graduated high school and I moved in with her for six months. 30 00:02:32,905 --> 00:02:35,035 And her house was the opposite of ours. 31 00:02:35,335 --> 00:02:37,075 She and her husband drink. 32 00:02:37,135 --> 00:02:44,394 There was a grandfather clock ticking in the hallway and in the cas on all the art chairs, a very, very orderly place. 33 00:02:44,605 --> 00:02:49,555 And every night she put me to bed with an ice cream soda and read a story to me. 34 00:02:50,275 --> 00:02:53,855 It took me twice in my thirties when it suddenly dawned. 35 00:02:54,450 --> 00:03:00,510 That was where I began to identify storytelling with peace, quiet, and orderliness. 36 00:03:01,180 --> 00:03:01,340 Hmm. 37 00:03:01,710 --> 00:03:04,260 I'm pretty sure that woman put me on the path. 38 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:12,360 So when I was eight years old, I was actually writing stories, uh, stapling the edge, drawing the cover, and selling to relatives Fred Nickel. 39 00:03:12,750 --> 00:03:15,840 So I was author, agent, publish. 40 00:03:16,310 --> 00:03:17,900 Bookseller all in one. 41 00:03:18,230 --> 00:03:30,560 But I never saw myself as a writer until I was a senior at college and a teacher there had submitted a story I wrote for class to an Atlantic monthly competition for college writing, and it won. 42 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:31,160 Wow. 43 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,079 And it was in the history hundred and so years. 44 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,840 History of this contest in this college. 45 00:03:35,900 --> 00:03:39,200 No one in this college had ever replaced in this contest. 46 00:03:39,859 --> 00:03:45,500 So overnight I went from being a student who just got by to somebody who started to. 47 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,270 Maybe there's this other thing I can do. 48 00:03:48,450 --> 00:04:00,750 And when I saw that I no longer had to work or even tried or an agree, the reputation that followed having won this prize got me straight A and I said, Hey, this is good stuff, 49 00:04:01,890 --> 00:04:04,530 And that I think is where I decided I gotta try. 50 00:04:04,590 --> 00:04:13,920 This is the way I turned around and was bold enough to send that story off to magazine called Readers and Writers, which isn't with us anymore. 51 00:04:14,215 --> 00:04:17,185 But they paid me $50 for the story. 52 00:04:17,394 --> 00:04:25,105 Uh, and I thought, ah, you know, that awakened me further to the idea you might be an able parent living with this. 53 00:04:25,345 --> 00:04:26,335 That's incredible. 54 00:04:26,635 --> 00:04:31,915 Adam Outland: Was that also a moment of realization of how to take. 55 00:04:32,260 --> 00:04:36,580 Inferences from the real world and pack them into a fictional story. 56 00:04:36,580 --> 00:04:46,570 I mean, I, I, I, this is a personal feeling that I have, that a lot of great writers have this ability to synthesize personal experience and inject it into fiction. 57 00:04:46,900 --> 00:04:50,350 Was that your methodology at, at that early stage of writing? 58 00:04:50,770 --> 00:04:50,980 Uh, 59 00:04:50,980 --> 00:04:55,690 Dean Koontz: I, I would say I was too young and foolish to think that deeply in those days. 60 00:04:56,010 --> 00:05:08,340 , uh, although now that you've raised that, It is interesting to think that the story that won the prize and sold for $50 was a little piece called The Kittens and the essence of that story. 61 00:05:08,850 --> 00:05:11,670 Is the lead character is this little girl. 62 00:05:12,090 --> 00:05:24,630 Uh, and the essence of that story is she has a father who lies to her and he tells her what turns out for her to be a catastrophic lie, and she acts upon it and does something that destroys the whole family. 63 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:32,335 And when I think about that, my father, Was her father in that, so I was drawing at that time. 64 00:05:32,395 --> 00:05:33,925 Now I've never actually stopped. 65 00:05:34,075 --> 00:05:34,855 Think about that. 66 00:05:35,245 --> 00:05:46,765 Then as when I started selling, I, I started selling science fiction novels and short stories because that was the kind of thing as a kid I most read and it took me, uh, took me. 67 00:05:47,550 --> 00:05:56,400 Number of years and almost 20 novels before I decided I'm never gonna be top, uh, top class as a science fiction writer. 68 00:05:56,700 --> 00:06:05,700 I just don't have that extra thing about foreseeing the future where foreseeing certain trends that is part of that. 69 00:06:06,285 --> 00:06:10,905 And I didn't wanna be there if I couldn't be doing better work than I was. 70 00:06:11,295 --> 00:06:13,545 And that's when I started moving off. 71 00:06:13,545 --> 00:06:14,895 I wrote a comic novel. 72 00:06:14,895 --> 00:06:16,275 I wrote suspense novels. 73 00:06:16,755 --> 00:06:17,145 Hmm. 74 00:06:17,415 --> 00:06:20,445 Adam Outland: I actually read your, your books as a, as a young person. 75 00:06:20,475 --> 00:06:26,385 And I was reflecting ahead of this interview on certain stories that really gravitated to me personally. 76 00:06:26,715 --> 00:06:27,405 Even in fiction. 77 00:06:27,405 --> 00:06:30,225 I felt what rooted me was the character study. 78 00:06:30,255 --> 00:06:31,545 Like if, if you really nailed. 79 00:06:32,190 --> 00:06:35,040 A character that was believable and a fictional story 80 00:06:35,610 --> 00:06:37,050 Dean Koontz: for you quite a few years. 81 00:06:37,050 --> 00:06:38,610 Now, I've said plot is that. 82 00:06:39,555 --> 00:06:40,005 Fine. 83 00:06:40,034 --> 00:06:43,094 Uh, the plot of the story can be compelling. 84 00:06:43,185 --> 00:06:48,015 You can be thrown through the novel cuz you're so excited about what might happen next. 85 00:06:48,344 --> 00:07:02,325 But in the end, fiction is about character and if the characters don't really grip you, then story will not stay with you for 10 years or 20 years as one will that the character stays with you. 86 00:07:02,950 --> 00:07:08,620 I, I had a friend in college who was an absolute stone fan of John D. 87 00:07:08,620 --> 00:07:17,770 McDonald, the suspense novelist, and I was an English maker, and this friend of mine was a history major, so my attitude, of course was I knew better than he did. 88 00:07:18,105 --> 00:07:22,845 And then when I was outta college, I thought, well, let me see what Harry was talking about. 89 00:07:22,845 --> 00:07:24,195 And I picked up the John D. 90 00:07:24,195 --> 00:07:27,585 McDonald level and he's a master of character. 91 00:07:27,795 --> 00:07:33,745 And one thing about McDonald that fascinated me, I, he was so good at story too, that. 92 00:07:34,195 --> 00:07:36,294 You would get so caught up in the story. 93 00:07:36,655 --> 00:07:45,715 And then McDonald, he would introduce the characters and sometimes he would just stop and tell you that character's passed and it would go on for six, seven pages. 94 00:07:46,164 --> 00:07:48,895 And you're never supposed to do something like that. 95 00:07:48,895 --> 00:07:50,935 You're supposed to find other ways to do it. 96 00:07:51,025 --> 00:07:54,775 And the first time I encountered this, I got a pager. 97 00:07:54,780 --> 00:07:56,185 So I went, wait a minute. 98 00:07:56,485 --> 00:07:58,135 We've stopped the whole story here. 99 00:07:58,980 --> 00:07:59,700 What's he doing? 100 00:07:59,820 --> 00:08:03,990 And I paged forward to see when does this stop and get back to the story. 101 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,410 And I saw how far it was and I, well, I guess I gotta read this. 102 00:08:07,860 --> 00:08:12,510 And by the time I read those seven pages and the story picked up again, I said, no, wait a minute. 103 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,030 I wanna know more about this character's background. 104 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,680 And that was an illuminating moment and that that was the way to write character. 105 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:20,700 Adam Outland: I love that. 106 00:08:20,750 --> 00:08:21,470 And, and I. 107 00:08:21,990 --> 00:08:24,120 If we just kind of go back to timeline. 108 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:29,670 When you graduated Shippensburg, you, you didn't go right into authoring, uh, prolifically. 109 00:08:29,670 --> 00:08:33,330 You actually had kind of an interim job that you did for a while. 110 00:08:33,390 --> 00:08:36,180 If you don't mind, maybe share a little bit on that, that experience. 111 00:08:36,569 --> 00:08:38,720 Dean Koontz: I had two teaching positions. 112 00:08:38,809 --> 00:08:44,039 Uh, the first one was there was a school in the Appalachian poverty zone. 113 00:08:44,189 --> 00:08:54,560 I was looking for somebody in a specialty position who would be given students from, by other teachers who would pick students in their class. 114 00:08:55,335 --> 00:09:14,235 Who came from a very poverty stricken families, but had high aptitude and could benefit from very small classes where you had like six students in in that class and you would tutor them in English and I'd have a few of those classes a day, but never many people in it. 115 00:09:14,625 --> 00:09:16,475 The teachers in these other. 116 00:09:17,380 --> 00:09:20,470 Did not live by the rules of this federal program. 117 00:09:20,709 --> 00:09:36,189 They didn't give me the kids in their class at the highest aptitude they gave, gave me the kids in their class who were the most troubled kids who had police records with a violence in their records, and it was a rough rest of that year. 118 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:37,750 It was fascinating. 119 00:09:38,170 --> 00:09:53,130 But I did discover that even in these kids who were being thrown, By the system when they found out somebody actually cared about them and was going to say, you're not gonna screw around in this class, you're gonna get something out of it. 120 00:09:53,339 --> 00:10:07,560 And so I didn't get killed that year, but I did find out that the teacher before me had been run off the road on his way home from school by his own students and they had beaten him up and put him in the hospital while they remained for a month. 121 00:10:07,829 --> 00:10:10,040 And that year was a very instructive. 122 00:10:10,694 --> 00:10:14,594 I wouldn't have wanted to do a second year, but it wasn't a waste video. 123 00:10:14,995 --> 00:10:16,574 It taught me quite a lot. 124 00:10:17,324 --> 00:10:33,824 Adam Outland: So it just reflecting on some of the hard teaching moments of teaching and dealing with some of those rough and tumble situations and some of the, the characters in the individuals that you met doing that, I mean, do you ever go back into some of your past relationships or people to draw as reference for plots or, or 125 00:10:33,824 --> 00:10:34,515 Dean Koontz: character? 126 00:10:35,055 --> 00:10:35,865 Yeah, everything. 127 00:10:36,704 --> 00:10:40,725 You go through in life ends up in the current book or the next one. 128 00:10:41,025 --> 00:10:41,475 Wow. 129 00:10:41,805 --> 00:10:48,194 It's conversations we hear in a restaurant that I kind of fold into the story because I think they're amusing. 130 00:10:48,375 --> 00:10:53,295 You end up using an awful lot of what you see here and go through in life. 131 00:10:53,595 --> 00:11:04,334 Whether you're looking at life as a resource for what you're gonna write or not, your subconscious is, and the strangest things ends up being material in a. 132 00:11:04,829 --> 00:11:05,189 It's 133 00:11:05,189 --> 00:11:06,239 Adam Outland: so interesting hearing you say that. 134 00:11:06,239 --> 00:11:17,280 I remember listening to an interview with a comedian who, because of his career in comedy, it colors how you take in information in the real world. 135 00:11:17,310 --> 00:11:29,905 You know, uh, and this is maybe a little screwed up, but a comedian has this immediate filter where I, I can't remember who's, Said this, but uh, tragedy plus time equals comedy and they can compress that time to minutes. 136 00:11:29,905 --> 00:11:31,375 Where most of us it takes years. 137 00:11:31,705 --> 00:11:47,055 And what I hear you say is, is kind of the author's equivalent where, and I'm curious, you know, if, if I'm saying that correctly, when did that really begin for you, where you would take events or you'd listen and hear something and make a mental note or bookmark something to come back and revisit? 138 00:11:47,915 --> 00:11:52,865 Dean Koontz: You know, I don't actually make a mental note or a bookmark or write it down. 139 00:11:53,224 --> 00:11:57,365 I'm often asked if a character is particularly popular with readers. 140 00:11:57,844 --> 00:12:00,084 Is that based on somebody who knew? 141 00:12:00,305 --> 00:12:01,444 And it never is. 142 00:12:01,564 --> 00:12:05,074 But parts of that character are definitely, are. 143 00:12:05,135 --> 00:12:06,755 There's elements of the character. 144 00:12:06,964 --> 00:12:10,125 Sometimes it's elements of different people, and then things you. 145 00:12:10,580 --> 00:12:16,970 I would say that the character of odd Thomas that I, uh, wrote eight books about that. 146 00:12:16,970 --> 00:12:23,990 If I look at odd Thomas, there's a lot that odd learned about bias that I learned about. 147 00:12:24,540 --> 00:12:29,880 Life through that year when I was teaching those kids who had criminal records. 148 00:12:30,060 --> 00:12:39,510 And odd is this relaxed sort of guy who deals with a lot of terrible things in it, but he, he's not the kind of male lead that carries a gun. 149 00:12:39,870 --> 00:12:47,580 He sees the humor in life and those books have a lot, and I've always seen the humor in life. 150 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:54,765 But when I was in that situation, in that school district, It became a survival instinct. 151 00:12:55,125 --> 00:13:00,825 And when I had to write about, uh, Thomas, how did you cope with these stressful moments of that? 152 00:13:00,885 --> 00:13:03,445 And it was with finding humor in it. 153 00:13:03,450 --> 00:13:07,185 There, there's another quote about comedy that catastrophe. 154 00:13:07,625 --> 00:13:11,255 After enough years go by, catastrophe can be hilarious. 155 00:13:11,555 --> 00:13:14,135 And uh, there's something true in that too. 156 00:13:14,944 --> 00:13:15,365 Adam Outland: Yeah. 157 00:13:15,545 --> 00:13:32,045 Talk to me about the emotional rollercoaster of your life since so many of these things are reflected, not, not throwing that on you, but more of a question of so many of our listeners obviously are right now going through tough times, and so as a way to relate to that, what were some of your tougher moments 158 00:13:32,735 --> 00:13:33,485 Dean Koontz: young writers? 159 00:13:34,260 --> 00:13:39,900 When they ask me for advice, they always sort of say, well, I've got a lot of foolishness, I can tell you. 160 00:13:39,959 --> 00:13:52,050 But, and the, the real advice, the good advice I know from experience, almost nobody ever takes because, uh, they think that my career was this smooth, upward glide path. 161 00:13:52,530 --> 00:13:59,250 And it was anything but I was writing 13 or 15 years before I ever had bestseller. 162 00:13:59,550 --> 00:14:02,819 And then even after I had bestsellers, I. 163 00:14:03,585 --> 00:14:09,435 So many naysayers in the publishing business telling me I couldn't do what I was doing. 164 00:14:09,705 --> 00:14:20,955 It's an astonishing thing to look back on, and it's one of the most valuable things I can say is you're gonna hit so many people telling you you're doing it the wrong way. 165 00:14:21,345 --> 00:14:22,935 It's never gonna happen for you. 166 00:14:23,444 --> 00:14:26,135 The world is full of people who say it's possible. 167 00:14:26,325 --> 00:14:31,485 The first book I had that was a hard cover at bestseller, it was a book called Stranger. 168 00:14:31,954 --> 00:14:35,015 The publisher had told me it was a very large book. 169 00:14:35,285 --> 00:14:43,805 Publisher told me she would support it, but I had to cut 40 some percent of it and I couldn't just, if I cut. 170 00:14:44,685 --> 00:14:51,075 That much of the book, it would've made no sense, but it nevertheless creped onto the bottom of the best artist. 171 00:14:51,435 --> 00:14:55,875 And then the next book was a book called Watchers, and it did even better. 172 00:14:56,085 --> 00:15:03,715 But the book after that was a book called like, and the publisher just just hated the book and told me, I can't publish this. 173 00:15:03,915 --> 00:15:07,215 You're finally creeping onto the best seller list. 174 00:15:07,215 --> 00:15:08,985 You're having increasing success. 175 00:15:09,495 --> 00:15:10,905 This book will destroy your. 176 00:15:11,930 --> 00:15:13,035 and I said, why? 177 00:15:13,215 --> 00:15:15,885 And she said, your vocabulary is too large. 178 00:15:16,245 --> 00:15:17,535 You have to keep a vocabulary. 179 00:15:17,535 --> 00:15:20,955 You have five to 600 words to be on the bestseller list. 180 00:15:21,345 --> 00:15:24,855 And then it was also your, your storylines are too complex. 181 00:15:25,185 --> 00:15:29,385 You have to make them simpler because readers don't go for complex things. 182 00:15:30,045 --> 00:15:31,545 Your unique character is. 183 00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:37,319 A child for the first 30% of the book growing up, and you can't do that. 184 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,579 You can't have the feature character for any length of Plan B a child. 185 00:15:42,209 --> 00:15:44,340 And I thought, what about Oliver Twist? 186 00:15:44,459 --> 00:15:46,470 What about to kill a mopping bird? 187 00:15:46,709 --> 00:15:48,810 We argued for six months. 188 00:15:49,140 --> 00:15:50,220 She published the book. 189 00:15:50,370 --> 00:15:55,890 It ended up getting to number three in the New York Times, and my next book was my first number one. 190 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:05,620 Then when midnight hit number one, this publisher called me up and said, this will never happen to go because you don't write. 191 00:16:05,740 --> 00:16:07,330 Find books that can be number one 192 00:16:07,980 --> 00:16:10,844 Uh, And we did formal books together. 193 00:16:10,935 --> 00:16:21,675 Each one was number one, and every single time I was told, this will never happen again until you finally say, okay, I've gotta go somewhere where they think this could happen. 194 00:16:22,005 --> 00:16:26,324 And it's the hardest thing to know when the naysayer is wrong. 195 00:16:26,670 --> 00:16:30,150 And taking the good advice, but not the bad advice. 196 00:16:30,209 --> 00:16:40,109 It, it's the, was the hardest thing my, in my career, and it helped me back for many years because I, I would just say, well, this person is at the top of the business. 197 00:16:40,114 --> 00:16:41,729 They must know what they're talking about. 198 00:16:41,849 --> 00:16:44,160 And it took me a while to realize, nope, not always. 199 00:16:44,895 --> 00:16:45,584 Adam Outland: That's right. 200 00:16:45,824 --> 00:16:56,324 Is there anything that you've developed in terms of a, maybe a series of questions or a way to pause and, and reflect on someone's opinion before deciding whether or not to receive it? 201 00:16:56,985 --> 00:16:58,395 Dean Koontz: It took me a long time. 202 00:16:58,665 --> 00:17:02,194 I mean a few decades to get to the point. 203 00:17:02,785 --> 00:17:06,625 Where I would be sure of myself that I was right. 204 00:17:07,105 --> 00:17:14,214 I remember when I delivered Doc Thomas, it was a totally mother publisher, but when I delivered Doc Thomas, he hated it so much. 205 00:17:14,635 --> 00:17:16,944 He told the editor why he disliked it. 206 00:17:17,305 --> 00:17:24,474 I, I began to see certain things about his personality that it helped me understand that was within. 207 00:17:25,190 --> 00:17:34,970 Kind of a hesitancy to admit that you could be wrong, and I could see that in certain other things that was happening in that company. 208 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:39,620 It was a refusal to acknowledge that a wrong decision had been made. 209 00:17:40,010 --> 00:17:42,020 So I came to see you then. 210 00:17:42,435 --> 00:17:49,095 That whenever you work with that person, you couldn't say, uh, you're wrong about that. 211 00:17:49,635 --> 00:18:00,315 You had to take a different tack and say, well, here's why I think, you know, the public will like this and take other ways to get your way. 212 00:18:00,555 --> 00:18:05,535 And I began to see it after that many cases that it always comes outta. 213 00:18:06,270 --> 00:18:13,560 What people may have been through in their own life and why they deeply desire to have their way. 214 00:18:13,860 --> 00:18:23,640 Different people have different reasons for why they don't have way, and it can be very hard to figure out the psychology of it, and therefore you have to be more diplomatic. 215 00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:24,860 Adam Outland: It's so interesting. 216 00:18:24,860 --> 00:18:30,379 So many of our listeners are business owners and, and in the business world and, and Dina, everything you're saying does apply. 217 00:18:30,379 --> 00:18:33,409 It's, it, it translates so amazingly from, from authoring. 218 00:18:33,679 --> 00:18:35,149 Persuasion is important. 219 00:18:35,270 --> 00:18:42,980 Uh, being able to be willing to admit per personally when you're wrong and leave opening for that, but also trusting your gut at times. 220 00:18:42,980 --> 00:18:43,939 And it's, it's true. 221 00:18:43,939 --> 00:18:45,379 It's, I mean, it's a universal thing. 222 00:18:45,880 --> 00:19:01,840 You know, just a, a couple of spitball questions that I, I wanted to throw out, you know, one, I I was just kind of curious if, if there's a book that you've read recently, uh, not your own that you've really enjoyed, or, uh, if you're really continuing to read a lot at the stage of your life, if there's anything that's been appealing to you recently. 223 00:19:02,620 --> 00:19:20,400 Dean Koontz: I'd say the last several years I've had to so much research material for the fiction I'm writing that I've read, read Less for Pleasure than I used to, but, , and it's also a fact that when my wife and I were first married, we didn't have a television for 10 years. 224 00:19:20,490 --> 00:19:25,470 It was about six of those years we couldn't afford it then we just didn't really want one. 225 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:33,000 Every night our entertainment was reading, and for number of years we read about 200 books a year each. 226 00:19:33,210 --> 00:19:39,900 That was great for learning to write novels because I read in every time that fiction, every genre. 227 00:19:40,885 --> 00:19:41,070 . Adam Outland: Wow. 228 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,610 And then you have a book, the House at the End of the World. 229 00:19:44,730 --> 00:19:50,550 If you don't mind, maybe, uh, given a clue on this, what you said, you've been embroiled and researched for 230 00:19:50,550 --> 00:19:51,180 Dean Koontz: books. 231 00:19:51,460 --> 00:19:56,800 You, you get to a point in this book where I had to do quite a lot of science research Oh, wow. 232 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:06,330 But all kind of other things because, uh, this is a story about a woman who lives alone on a remote island at the end of the thousand Island. 233 00:20:07,350 --> 00:20:18,750 She is a survivor of a catastrophic tragedy, and it takes a long time for you to come to an understanding of, of why she has moved to this remote island. 234 00:20:18,870 --> 00:20:32,669 It's a, it's a novel that really I think everybody's gonna relate to very well because it's a novel about how in our time and for quite a while, a great many people in the ruling class are failing. 235 00:20:33,220 --> 00:20:40,150 And, uh, they're failing us in many ways and many of the highest professions, certainly in politics and governance. 236 00:20:40,690 --> 00:20:55,330 And she is, uh, a victim of an epic failure and she pretty much gives up on life except for our, she's a painter and she moves to this remote island, and once she gets to this island, she. 237 00:20:56,125 --> 00:20:58,555 That's, there's an island after it. 238 00:20:58,795 --> 00:21:05,545 And what she was told is there is an environmental protection agency research station on it. 239 00:21:05,875 --> 00:21:07,435 Well, that turns out to be a lie. 240 00:21:07,615 --> 00:21:14,485 There is another research station on that island, but it's nothing as benign as the Environmental Protection Agency. 241 00:21:14,995 --> 00:21:23,774 And if she thinks she can, What's happening to this society she's in by getting to a remote island that turns out lovely. 242 00:21:23,774 --> 00:21:24,165 True. 243 00:21:24,705 --> 00:21:26,835 But it's also a very upbeat novel. 244 00:21:27,284 --> 00:21:33,685 Uh, it's scary as hell, I'll say that, but, uh, in the end it's a very positive, uh, novel. 245 00:21:34,370 --> 00:21:34,610 Very 246 00:21:34,610 --> 00:21:35,270 Adam Outland: compelling. 247 00:21:35,540 --> 00:21:37,550 Look forward to, to picking it up myself. 248 00:21:37,909 --> 00:21:39,830 If you'd leave our listeners with one last thing, Dean. 249 00:21:39,830 --> 00:21:54,260 It would be the, the question would be, knowing everything that you know now, having written all the books you've written, if you had the chance to, to sit back down with a young 21 year old Dean Koontz, what advice, knowing what you know today, would you give that, that 21 year old dean? 250 00:21:54,949 --> 00:22:07,560 Dean Koontz: Well, so many things, but I, I have seen too often by young writers, Will scope the market, they'll put up the periscope and look around and see what's selling, and they'll go write that. 251 00:22:07,770 --> 00:22:09,600 Don't zombie novels. 252 00:22:09,605 --> 00:22:17,130 Were the biggest thing in the world for seven, eight years, but zombie novels are not gonna be the thing that gives you a 40, 50 year career. 253 00:22:17,490 --> 00:22:23,760 The only thing that will do that, but in fact what'll happen is you'll become known as a zomi book writer. 254 00:22:24,210 --> 00:22:25,550 What you've gotta do is. 255 00:22:26,385 --> 00:22:28,215 What did I really love to write? 256 00:22:28,754 --> 00:22:30,795 Or what do I really love to paint? 257 00:22:30,975 --> 00:22:36,345 It's what you love, so it sort of applies to everything and then how you approach it. 258 00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:42,900 , I don't think, how do you do this and succeed based on how it's always been done and succeeded before? 259 00:22:43,290 --> 00:22:47,430 Because it's the love of doing what you're doing that will make it a success. 260 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:54,810 The fact you love it becomes that evident in the work itself, and that makes it work that other people enjoy. 261 00:22:55,140 --> 00:22:57,700 And that's, I don't think matters to whatever. 262 00:22:57,705 --> 00:22:58,980 It's running a re. 263 00:22:59,460 --> 00:23:00,690 Is a perfect example. 264 00:23:01,110 --> 00:23:09,450 If you absolutely love the food business, the food industry and the service industry, it's gonna come through in the quality of that restaurant. 265 00:23:09,570 --> 00:23:11,830 And if you don't, it's also gonna come through. 266 00:23:12,375 --> 00:23:13,215 Do what you love. 267 00:23:13,335 --> 00:23:14,385 That's only one life. 268 00:23:14,655 --> 00:23:17,895 And then don't get caught up in extraneous things. 269 00:23:18,195 --> 00:23:21,045 Don't get caught up in politics, in ideology. 270 00:23:21,045 --> 00:23:22,515 It doesn't matter which side. 271 00:23:22,785 --> 00:23:34,905 Just get caught up in human journey, which is about many other things than the stuff you see on the news and, and I think about what's important to their people in any business. 272 00:23:35,025 --> 00:23:36,825 And it won't be those things. 273 00:23:36,945 --> 00:23:40,665 It'll be those things in their daily lives that they care. 274 00:23:41,545 --> 00:23:47,635 Adam Outland: Brilliant advice and I know a lot of people will appreciate it, so I really appreciate you making the time for this conversation. 275 00:23:47,695 --> 00:23:50,035 Thanks again, Dean for, for carving out time for us. 276 00:23:50,515 --> 00:23:51,355 Dean Koontz: Thanks for having me. 277 00:23:51,355 --> 00:23:52,135 Deborah was great.