PJ Ellis (00:38)

so I suppose this week we're trying something a little bit different. We've done it before. And rather than a single guest, me and Andy look back at conversations and these conversations today are episode seven through 11, pulling out the themes, lessons, ideas that really stuck with us.

And you know what, mate, what I've found fascinating about Whitting grit at the moment, no matter the background, a mayor, a lawyer, a charity leader, whatever it might be, the same threads keep weaving through resilience, opportunity, self-belief, the importance of telling our stories and surrounding ourselves with people who lift us up. So let's start with Paul Faulkner-Mukher. Shall we get straight into it? Episode seven.

Andy (01:10)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, let's hope he's doing all right. I think he was having surgery yesterday. Poor lad. Oops, there's knee ligament or something like that.

PJ Ellis (01:27)

I

God bless

Andy (01:29)

And isn't that

important reminder to go, right? As we've just been talking about off air, it's really important reminder to not wait, to just have a go and do stuff. we both know and love Paul, don't we? I've known him for a long time now. And I think we call the episode, if you're good enough, you're old enough. And that certainly serves him well, didn't it? And the opportunities he got with those football clubs and working in family offices and stuff like that.

PJ Ellis (01:34)

100%.

Andy (01:55)

Again, a timely reminder, you've just got to take an opportunity because that makes the big difference. And that really resonated with me, that title.

PJ Ellis (02:04)

Yeah, mate, me too. mean, I've always sort of, certainly now, a bit of a nugget I take from some people when I start, yeah, I've known Paul Faulkner for a while, but then when you get to really speak to him, like on a podcast like this, you start sort of removing those layers. And I always challenge myself around my career. It's not been as linear as I'd expect it would have been as a kid. But you look at Paul's banking, football, charity.

membership organisations, you know, it's quite interesting to, it gives me a confidence to appreciate that actually if you're a good person, you bring certain skills, whatever it might be to the table, you can do it in all walks of life, can't you?

Andy (02:47)

Yeah, no, you definitely can. And he had that nice little line. I'm not sure it was his quote, but it was no such thing as a bad experience, only experience. And you can, know, as good as people are, we can just apply ourselves to what's in front of us. know, I, for my sins, I'm a consultant, right? So we work across a lot of different sectors and different businesses and pretty sector agnostic, because at the end of the day,

Most things come down to being able to deal with people, right? How can you get on with people? Can you help people? And you can apply that to whatever sector or situation you're in. I think that again, Paul has always been really, really good at that. He's had such a diverse range of opportunities and especially now as he's got into his kind of new business with Mark. It's about people at the end of the day. That's the most important baseline that we all need to have, think.

PJ Ellis (03:20)

Yeah.

and sucking the marrow out of life. mean, that optimism. He's always, he's got an energy that's quite, what's the word? It's attractive. That sounds bizarre. Probably clumsy language, but yeah, he said, the marrow out of life. What was that? Dead Poets Society, was it? ⁓

Andy (03:56)

Yeah.

Yeah, that

Captain My Captain, that famous kind of speech towards the end, isn't it? But that was certainly one the quotes from that. And I'd say, mate, you're the same. I know you hate getting compliments, but there are people like you, like Paul, who kind of light up the room when they come in and you kind of feel the kind of temperature go up a little bit. And I think we all crave and want to be around those sorts of people at times, because it rubs off, you know, it kind of rubs off on you as well, doesn't it, if you're in the right circles.

So yeah, that's a great message. And I think the other interesting thing I did listen to his back on double speed yesterday is a bit of prep, right? He talked about, it was August, right? And we talked about the economy and he said, oh yeah, it's tough right now, right? Back in August. And he says, oh, my worry is with the budget coming in October, we're gonna go into a couple of months of nothingness, know, debating this, that and the other now.

It didn't actually come in October, right? It's coming as late as possible on the 26th of November, the budget. And I'm boring and up early and I track all the news and things like that. and that it's becoming a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy at the moment, this doom loop about companies starting to blame trading statements or performance on spend. we're now, the government is actively live testing.

some of the policies around tax at the moment to see what we're actually getting. So there's two things in these sorts of scenarios, isn't it? You either sit and wait and go, this is going to happen to me. 90 odd percent of people will do that. Or you go Richard Branson style, screw it, let's do it and keep going and hit the floor. Because again, I can't remember which episode it was, but we certainly talked about the fact that

If you just have a go at stuff, you've got a much better chance of succeeding because most people won't. Most people get stuck. Most people are little bit scared or want to wait and see what happens. So we've got two and a bit weeks to go until this budget comes. So that gives us all two and a half weeks to make some decisions about how we're going to show up. Right. And I know what we're going to do. You and I, we've talked about it. We're going to go, right. We're just going to go. And I'd encourage everyone to have a think about that as well.

PJ Ellis (06:23)

Really interesting talking about just go. I might have to get rid of my electric car if one of the budget things that I've been flirting with comes in. Can I get tax per mile?

Andy (06:33)

3p a mile, wasn't it? And that's been, again, another test that's been thrown out there to see how it lands, you know, 200, 3p a mile. So they reckon that's, you know, if you're doing 7,500 miles a year, I don't know if that's the average. And yeah, it could be actually 250 quid, you put in the pot.

PJ Ellis (06:38)

Is that what they're 3 PMO?

It reminds me of the diesel debacle. know, diesel was good and diesel is now bad. Anyway, moving swiftly on, mate. You know what came out of Paul Faulkner's chat for me was, just quickly, was talking, in fact, all of these conversations resonate in this way. I actually now know what it's called. When I was a kid, you date a girl, you'd fall in love, she'd drive a white Mini. She'd split up with you, break your heart, and then you'd see these white Minis everywhere.

It's actually called frequency illusion or the Bader-Mainhoff syndrome, I believe, or something like that. Is it? Okay. And he said something to me about, well, to us actually, of course, life's about people, not the CVs. And we were talking briefly about how you put those life skills, experiences on top of the CV. That conversation, mate, is everywhere at the moment. Whether it's down to Paul, whether it's just the climate, I don't know, but I'm loving it. Episode eight.

Andy (07:23)

It fits. on.

PJ Ellis (07:45)

Latoya Thompson and Sam Dow. How cool was that one?

Andy (07:48)

Well, that was wicked. Really, really good. a bit, know, hats off to us for trying to do something a bit different, right? ⁓ Yeah. And that's really come through for us as well in terms of that kind of partnerships and relationships as well. So I really, really enjoyed that. Two hardworking, positive young people who definitely make their parents proud and their employer proud.

PJ Ellis (07:55)

of that.

Andy (08:14)

So I really enjoyed having those two on. And yeah, that's what gives you hope, know? Latoya, her backstory, how hard her parents worked to put her in the position that she could go for it. And Sam, similar, backed by his parents, always wanted to be a lawyer, pursued his dream.

Yeah, and they're both there now and they will both be really successful in whatever success means. It means different things to different people. But yeah, they really inspired me and some great bits in that conversation as well.

PJ Ellis (08:43)

Yeah, mate, the stuff for me, I was speaking to Blake, actually, my boy about this episode, pure definition of, course, there's the wit, they're lawyers, you know, they can maneuver through X, Y and Z, but the grit, you know, that that was definitely there. You know, I think sometimes I was a lawyer for eight years, nine years, probably went through, I was quite lucky. don't know. Do buy your own luck? I don't know. But I went to university, got the grades where it was very much like they were coming in and just picking.

hand picking the talent, you know. So I was very lucky in the sense that it's quite easy for me to get into and then get back into law actually. But not so much with LaToya and Sam, know, that resilience around backing themselves, retaking exams, you know, all that sort of stuff. It was definitely a conversation I had with my son about both things. One, you've got to get out there and just make it happen if you want. And two, actually,

not everything starts with that conventional beginning. doesn't necessarily have, LaToya took a slightly different route into law, if you remember. Sam had those challenges in relation to the exams and whether he was good enough and all that. And sometimes I think you say it all the time to me, like just go and it's binary one, one's on, zero's off, all that sort of stuff.

And both of those could have given up at some part in their sort of journey and they didn't. And what an absolute shame that would have been if those two people weren't working at a firm like Higgs. know, they're doing so many brilliant things. It was a really, really lovely conversation.

Andy (10:09)

Yeah. And hats off to Sophie and Higgs because I can't think of many of the law firms I've worked with or met who would unleash two of the newly qualified employees on a podcast like this with no restrictions, no nothing. So that really says a lot about the culture, doesn't it? There was a really interesting, and we often talk about younger generations as problematic sometimes, don't we, in the workplace? They were paying, they didn't want to do this. Well,

PJ Ellis (10:25)

Thank

Andy (10:36)

There's a quote for each of them that really stood out for me. Let's do little of Lufthuja's first. If you can't tell me the why, then I'm going to ask why. So a beautiful way of, of challenging the status quo in a positive way. And she was talking about the workplace, you know, the people who say we've always done it this way. So we'll keep always doing it that way. Well, if we're going to be progressive in life, you've got to be prepared to, to change and move forward. So I loved how she

talked about that in such a positive way. And I'd encourage everyone to do that, especially my kids. And I talked to them about that especially. And then Sam, I love this because we do change consulting, right at Curium. He said, moving, change is about moving forward and improving. All change is positive. What a great mindset. That's, know, I think clever people talk about growth mindset, don't they? Which is all about self-challenging and wanting to do better.

And with those, his quote was in the context of AI and they both talk really positively about AI, which is nice to hear because again, it's been a, the doom loop around jobs and futures. Actually it's there to help take away some of the mundane stuff in life. And then as I think Sam really talked about, it's only going to be a positive because then you can really focus on the important things to clients and improving the experience and things like that. So that was, that was great to hear.

from a sector that is under the microscope when it comes to AI, isn't it? Because it's believed that it can be AI'd away a lot of that stuff.

PJ Ellis (12:05)

Yeah, Matt, I think

it's testament to how actually firms are setting themselves up for success in that situation because they seemed well versed or confident to be able to have those conversations with clients to say, look, you know, this is a friend. It's not going to be a foe. We'll be using AI, but you're always going to have us at the end of the phone sort of thing or whatever. And yeah, I mean, they were so confident. What I did like about that, that confidence, I don't know whether it was born out of this, but they were both into networking, weren't they?

Andy (12:33)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

PJ Ellis (12:34)

very, very

up for networking. Something I'm not too sure I would have done as a young kid, know, as positively as they did, whether that's their outset, whether that's their outlook in relation to being positive or I don't know, the firm backs them one way or another, they were all up for it, weren't they?

Andy (12:49)

Yeah. If you remember LaToya's story about going to the Birmingham Black Lawyers Ball on her own, and her advice is, you know, just go because someone will come and talk to you and that's one more connection. And then you build another connection. that, that, you know, the confidence to do that is great. But also sometimes with the networking stuff, it's this, we got the fear get in the way and it's a bit like 90 % of the people who won't do stuff the way. Well, I've definitely been there and I think you have is.

PJ Ellis (13:10)

Yeah.

Andy (13:17)

standing in that room, I used to go just towards by the time the event started, because I didn't want to know a conversation trying to talk to people I didn't know, because I'm a bit of an introvert. But you learn, you know, and you only ever learn by doing. And both of them were really positive about it. And it's really important for the sector and roles to keep doing that. Because that's how you, that's how you find people. And you're a much better marketeer than I am, mate. But I think in this day and age, growing a business is a contact sport again, it's about being out.

PJ Ellis (13:24)

Yep.

Andy (13:45)

⁓ meeting people, being visible. Lots of companies I know really struggle with, you know, the old ways of marketing. I think there's still a place for things like direct marketing and that kind of thing if you could do it in a nice way where they surprise someone. But it's a contact sports event again, this kind of getting out and about and same applies to me, you, all the stuff we do. We've just got to turn up again, I think it's become really important.

PJ Ellis (14:12)

Yeah, and that's certainly something I took from these conversations. You I think sometimes I feel I can sit on platforms and, you know, everything's going to be fine. But the second I go back out and press that flesh and network, you know, it's a broad term. you know, I'm not brilliant at following up from so I can make the noise. But then I need someone to make you basically you come in and mop it all up, basically all that. You know, the pulling the China shop approach from PJ. And then you just come and sweep up a little bit for me.

But yeah, she said, my sort of takeaway was for networking. A, I want to get back into that. B, it's not as scary. And actually C, it's preparation. So it's preparation to build confidence. It's preparation to be more resilient, preparation to grow your business. And actually, if you're constantly sort of looking at how you prepare to grow one way or another, I think that's always a positive thing. So I really, really enjoyed that episode. Seek out allies.

Andy (15:08)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (15:08)

He's

certainly one of the lines that came out for me. yeah, certainly the experiences I've over the last five years, and ups and downs, you lose a family member, all this, you get tested one way or another. Seek out those allies. It's just a nicer place when you do, certainly when you find them.

Andy (15:24)

Yeah. And one last thing on, ⁓ on the networking stuff, ⁓ a little tip, maybe for anyone listening out there, you can test out new ideas in a, very safe way, you know, because we can wait and be perfect and go, we've got an idea for this product or this podcast, wherever it is. But if you go to a networking event and so you're chatting to someone, you could just chuck one of your ideas in there and see if it's cool. Yeah, I like that. Or you're muppet. No one's interested in that sort of stuff. So it's a really nice way of kind of.

testing the market for different things as well.

PJ Ellis (15:56)

Great idea, you know, maybe we should start doing sort of like off the back of this. We should get people on to teach us how to be better at networking and stuff like that eventually. never know, do you? Talking of networking, this guy's pretty well networked. Richard Parker, the mayor, mate. Did you ever think we'd have the mayor on? You know, it's pretty cool.

Andy (16:11)

Yeah.

No.

Yeah, no, was, ⁓ again, an interesting one. mean, he's a really responsible position he's in. So it would lovely to, lovely to have got a few pints down his neck, see what he really thought, you know. But now he's very generous of him to give up his time. And he talked a lot about, you know, collaborate and the need for collaboration, unlocking the region's potential. Maybe that's something we can, we can chat about because are we collectively doing enough for that? and storytelling.

PJ Ellis (16:27)

Ha ha ha, yeah.

Andy (16:44)

You know how important storytelling is to growth. And he obviously spends a lot of his time traveling, know, linking in with the government, you know, the government will appear recently for kind of investment conference. And he talks about his journey, his trips out to China, I think it was. So storytelling and that responsibility to champion a region. I mean, it's a tough job, right?

PJ Ellis (16:44)

Bye.

Yeah, I think storytelling is key. I think what came out of it for me is, you know, he did tell a decent, you know, was an interesting story and everyone's got a story. You you said to me and it stuck with me forever. I think you said it's somebody else yesterday, Andy on LinkedIn. No, in fact, it was this morning, I believe. You are the best in the world at being yourself. And part of that is because your backstory is completely unique to everybody's.

everybody else's, there's hundreds of millions of users on LinkedIn, but it's only one you and I, remember listening to Richard about his story, you know, born in Bristol, all that sort of stuff, blah, blah, blah. And what I really enjoyed about, I mean, we didn't go into it in too much detail, but what I really did enjoy and it really resonated with me is actually spoke about those people that brought him into that room. Add Davis had mentioned it a few times before, you know, those two couple of individuals through your life that really back you.

and support you and go, know what, actually you are good enough. And I know this is not a mutual appreciation society, mate, but I feel that you did that for me. And I am grateful for you for doing that because you do need people that, you know, we all have those imposter syndromes and anxieties and you know, I'm a good enough. But sometimes it just needs someone to say, you are actually, mate. And there's the door coming with me or going before me. And that was something I really liked.

Andy (18:27)

Yeah. Yeah. And I'll, to be, to be fair to Richard, he's very, I see him a lot, obviously, and he speaks a lot of things and you hear the message, but I often see him wandering around Colmore and I was coming into Brougham and then going back to kind of his offices and then always stop and chat and say hello. And he's good on, he's really good on access. think he's really keen when he speaks to make connections and follow up and, know, really want to take action. And I think

He delivers against what he says he's going to do. Everyone's going to have opinions on politics and he or she's this, this or that. But one thing he did, he links in with companies to try and make things happen. the only reason he came onto the podcast is because he responded to a message from a random stranger-ish person like me. I said, you fancy coming on? And he said, yes, to be fair. And you know, most people wouldn't do that.

PJ Ellis (19:01)

Yeah.

Andy (19:21)

I think Sam, my son told me a lovely story. was, one of his friends around last night and then they went out because he's 18. So spoons Fridays is the new term.

PJ Ellis (19:33)

He's

had his birthday has been about for three months, hasn't it? I mean, you've been out with him for about 10 times to celebrate his 18th. mean, you've got to you're running out of excuses,

Andy (19:37)

Yeah. Definitely. Any excuse.

But he said his friend wants to be a pilot. So all his friends talk about going to university, Sam's got his own route he wants to take and his friend wants to be a pilot. So he dropped an email to the CEO of some big pilot school, I know the of the company, but it's big, know, Sam's got thousands and thousands of people. And the CEO responded back to Tom and said, here's the contact details.

apply through this view. And again, it's little things like that. How do we lift our kids and youngsters up? It's not just kids and youngsters. We all need a lift, you know, and I think that's, that's a really important thing. And I do get the vibe. mean, Andy Street was good at that as well, to be fair, you know, but Richard certainly actions do speak louder than words. And that's what we like to see.

PJ Ellis (20:24)

Yeah,

he was talking about not having an ego, but also genuinely believing in that power of connection and bringing people together to create opportunity, friendships, networks, wherever it might be. And I think that's something that we need to do more of.

He spoke briefly about mentorship as well. know, the power of mentorship, not just for the mentor, but for the mentee as well. Or the other way around. Yeah, you know, I'm mentoring somebody at the moment and I'm getting as much out of the conversations as I hope they are. And I know you do exactly the same.

Andy (20:46)

to do that.

It goes, it goes both ways. and I've got some great people I'm privileged to work with who great coaches and, and they get so, so much back from seeing people develop and grow and, and, you know, mentoring and coaching is slightly differently. Coaching is about helping people find their own way. Mentoring is about shortcutting and say, do, do this or do this or, or kind of try that. And I get, I get loads back, you know, if I, was a couple of messages, I get

quite a few messages on LinkedIn and I'm sure you do people who thank me for something I said, which made them do something slightly differently. I had one the other day from a lady. went Susie. I won't share a full name. And I'd done a post about, um, yeah, I think I was going to the gym. said, Oh, I could have not gone cause I didn't have 45 minutes to do a session, but you know what I'd went and did 20 minutes and I did something and she said, Oh, she didn't have enough time to go and do a full swimming session. So she wasn't going to go, then

She remembered that and she went and she did a different type of session. She still got it in. So I think, you know, rewards definitely go both ways. And I do think that we have a responsibility to pass it on. If you've been a receiver, then you should also try and give something back and help someone out. Put your hand out to pull someone up.

PJ Ellis (22:08)

Love that, yeah, pay it forward, all that. Talking about helping others and, you know, developing and growth and learning and making yourself better. What's going on on the 30th of January, mate? Let's do a little bit of a plug halfway through this episode, mate. Talk to me, talk to me.

Andy (22:28)

Right. Well, we, we, we witter on, on this podcast, don't we, about taking action and doing stuff. a couple of months or so, good six weeks, something like that. said, um, yeah, if we're going to take this seriously, let's, let's make a statement. And, uh, we only went and booked Millennium Point, didn't we? Uh, not the little, we were offered a little room. They said, no, we want the big room. What's the, what's the biggest challenge we can set ourselves. So we've booked Millennium Point 30th of January for.

PJ Ellis (22:47)

That's a statement, isn't it?

Andy (22:57)

the first Witt and Gritt live event. It's going to be a great day. We've got some great speakers. The agenda's looking really good. We've got some great sponsors coming on board as well. And it's kind of, it's never felt scary. I tell people what we're doing and like go, Why are you doing that? Because you've got to back yourself in life. And that felt...

PJ Ellis (23:07)

my, so?

Yeah

Andy (23:23)

dumb and exciting at the same time, right, didn't it? So yes, I'm really looking forward to that. What about you?

PJ Ellis (23:29)

Me too, mate. There's a guy that Dave McLean, Rachel McLean, Baroness and Baron now, I believe. I don't know how you address them. It's still Rach and Dave to me. But they've had their ups and downs and they're definitely on their ups at the moment.

And their attitude was always, as long as they wasn't hurting anybody or being racist or whatever it might be, or nasty, was just, what's the worst that can happen? And if the answer was, well, no one's going to die, you know, let's just go for it. Life's too short. You know, and I think that mixed with an energy around sort of knowing that this is something that I think certainly our community needs. I need it. I need to go to a session and come away feeling a 10.

And I know the more conversations we're having with those people that are going to support us along the way, I know a hundred percent that's going to happen to the people that go to wit and grit live. Simple as that, mate. We're going to have fun. It's going to be slightly different, but people will come away from that day thinking, yeah, that was good. Takeaways that they can implement straight away into their lives. And this is what's happening with these conversations. We're having wit and grit, mate. You know, people might think I'm saying it for the pod. Absolute baloney. I am listening.

hard to these people, especially when I'm editing it again, you know, I've got the luxury of being able to listen to these a couple of times. And I'm implementing these little takeaways into my life. It's as simple as that for the better.

we will get this done. It's going to be great. I cannot wait. What was also great was episode 10, Sharon Bell, CEO Services for Education.

what a lovely lady she is.

Andy (24:56)

Yeah, yeah, she is. And, and forgive me if I've got this wrong, but I think she reached out to us to want to come on, isn't it? And do you know what is interesting? We're getting a lot of people wanting to help and get involved now, isn't it? Which I think, I think is great for you and I so neutral. Well done. Well done on that. Yeah. Sharon was great. ⁓ what the one thing that really stood out for me was how she talked about her squiggly career and how she moved from, you know, the

PJ Ellis (25:20)

Yeah.

Andy (25:22)

the finance, was KPMG to the aviation sector, working in airports to then move into education and now obviously CEO of a charity. And just the flexibility to roll with the punches. think she talked about, know, redundancy was the thing that gave her the opportunity to switch codes and switch sectors. I've, you know, likewise, you know, one of the things that gave me the just little nudge I needed was

you know, restructure at legal in general, when my role was going to get split in half. And I had the choice of, know, you're going to stay and do this, aren't you? And I kind of went, I'm not now. I'm going go and use that as opportunity to do some different. And Sharon talked about that really, really nicely, very open and a good lesson. You should never be stuck on one course. Always keep your mind open, always be curious, always be flexible and open to opportunity. Again, the magic word opportunity and.

Yeah, I loved how she talks about music and the different it makes to kids as well.

PJ Ellis (26:20)

Yeah, well that curiosity, I know you love that word, be curious, ask questions. And that sort of came out of the conversation around what a proposition was to a point, know, asking these kids to be curious when it comes to music, because off the back of that, so many brilliant things happened. Vocab has improved, confidence, team ship, all that sort of stuff comes out of music. I I wouldn't have never have known one thing that frustrates me, which I probably shouldn't say much on this podcast, but we'll probably keep this in.

I've done a lot and as you have around the third sector, I'm sure we need to change the word there. I don't hate the third sector. It just seems weird. But why aren't these charities that are doing so much, like they're constantly having to put their cap out for more money. And the outcomes are so tangible when it comes to these kids. We spoke a lot throughout these episodes around having certain conversations earlier.

I remember Abby right back episode two, I think it was, or three. She was saying, we can have these conversations now, but we should be having them when they're kids. And that was one of things she said. We're ripping music out of the arms of these kids and it's not good.

She was saying how music builds teamwork, confidence, creativity, strengthens the brain.

Andy (27:36)

Yeah. And just the other thing I think she talked about lockdown, you know, how they managed to keep everything, keep everything going. She'd only recently taken over as CEO, she? And they managed to keep those virtual classes going. And I think there was a nice story she told about a youngster who had autism and used the virtual sessions to get comfortable. And actually once everything was opened up again, they got into the music and got involved.

the parents didn't think that that would have happened if they hadn't kept going with those virtual classes. That was a lovely little takeaway as well.

PJ Ellis (28:10)

Yeah, it really was, mate. it was a real fascinating conversation. She said that we asked at the end, if you remember, if you were to give

children like a superpower. I'm not entirely sure whether I asked it like that, but she said it'd be resilience. If she could give that gift to somebody as a kid, give them resilience. And would you agree with that? Would that be a gift that you'd give to kids?

Andy (28:23)

Hmm, yeah.

Yeah, think resilience is just something we've got to have, haven't we? I think it's a necessity in this day and age. There's so much going on around us. And I think there is the social media angle to that. You've got to develop a bit of a thick skin, not let things get to you. And I know that's really difficult at times. And I think that need to...

or have a perception. And the reality of when I was growing up as a kid, I failed and made loads of mistakes, but it was never, it never felt like everyone was watching. And I think it probably does to a lot of, a lot of people in this day and age, everyone's watching you. Well, they're not, you know, they aren't, people aren't watching you. They're worried about themselves. You know, everyone, what is the stat? You spend 70, 80 % of the day talking to yourself, you know, so we can make, make things up.

⁓ and, overly worry about stuff that just doesn't matter. Cause people don't care that everyone's got their own things they're worried about. So resilience is really important, but there's a, there's a lot of things curiosity, you know, be prepared to try something new. and maybe not succeed us again on here. How long did we witter on about trying to find something to do together that we'd like, then, Should we just do a podcast, right? Cause you know, let's try something.

PJ Ellis (29:49)

Yeah, man, same here. She said something about, you know, take the opportunities that come your way. You know, don't overthink it, believe in yourself. You know, I'm 46 and I'm still trying to master that. And that's something I really hope that whether it be a confidence, you know, every time I say yes to these things, you know, one minute I'm playing netball at the Utilita arena with celebrities and the next I'm doing like a 25 mile walk with Pudsey I know, I know that sounds quite flippant of me to say that, but those opportunities.

are a bit out of my comfort zone to be fair. So I always say yes to them because I'm hoping I'm setting an example to my kids to say, just have a go. know, don't ever say no. My dad said before I did the big brother stuff and all that, he said, son, don't have a what if moment, mate. And it was probably the most simplest but effective advice someone's ever given me at that point in my life because I nearly didn't do big brother. And what a shame that would have been.

Andy (30:24)

Brilliant.

PJ Ellis (30:44)

because I had so many, I had such a rich experience from that. And I nearly said no. Bizarre, isn't it?

Andy (30:51)

Again, just listen to the week you've just had. How amazing is that? You've just talked out loud, just said you, 5,000 people, but a load of celebs, then two days walking from, where was it? The baggies to the blues, raising money for children in need. Cause you're presenting on the radio. Just let that sink in a bit.

PJ Ellis (30:55)

Cheers.

Andy (31:12)

That's pretty awesome. Your kids are looking at dad and what dad's doing and they're going, wow, you know? So that's a fine example. And just, you said something there that what your dad said. My dad, when I was growing up, called me a woulda, coulda, shoulda, right? Because I wanna do that, I'm gonna do that. you'd stop being a woulda, coulda, shoulda. Start being a doer. And that's really stuck with me.

PJ Ellis (31:36)

was your dad a doer.

Andy (31:38)

Yeah, yeah, my dad's little story. He, he was born in India. His parents worked on tea plantation. So he was schooled and brought up by his aunts in Scotland. And yeah, he, he, had a lot of pride. He got a surprise when he got his qualification. got a third in chemistry and he thought he'd brought shame on the family. So we never.

went to get his, never graduated, never went to get his qualification. because he thought, you know, it's about doing an effort and putting stuff in, but ultimately retired as a technical director, a huge global glass business and traveled the world. because he wanted to do, wanted to show up, wanted to get stuff done. So really proud of that kind of story about that.

PJ Ellis (32:19)

And you know what, he'd be proud of you, mate, because you've said that a few times to me, and I bet you say that to your kids. Don't be a woulda, coulda, shoulda. Get on with it, Look what can happen. Go and travel the world and do whatever you wanna do. Whatever you wanna do. And I'm sure, you know what, we'd have the same sort of conversation with this lady, Katie Martin, if we asked her to have another conversation with us. Very positive. She's probably talking about convincing people to go.

Andy (32:38)

⁓ amazing.

PJ Ellis (32:47)

and do things. mean, she's probably, well, well versed into that, know, head of counter-terrorism. You know, she's constantly convincing people to do things that she needs them to do. It a fascinating listen, wasn't it?

Andy (32:59)

Yeah, she was awesome. Thank you to Sharon, power networking, right? Sharon recommended her because I think Katie and Becker had gone and done a session for them. I thought she was brilliant and some really good takeaways. If we ever do Witten grit the book, there's definitely a couple of things she shared that we should stick in there. And one of them was the, again, was a lot of it's around talk to kids and I'll come back to that in a second.

I guess, quick question for you. Can you remember your first day at work? Your first job? First proper job? Can you remember your first day?

PJ Ellis (33:32)

No, no, I know where this is going though.

Andy (33:33)

No, me neither, right? Do remember her first day

on the beat? My word, carjacking. Chased him down, got 18 years and then went back to the canteen and had cup of tea. What a first day that is.

PJ Ellis (33:39)

That's it.

Yeah, mate, I mean, there's a book in that, it? That's the first chapter. The rest is just like, you know, I'm obsessed. I mean, yeah, it's crack as that is, isn't it? What a start to such a distinguished career. You know, she's recently retired from the force and now she's moved into the DARE team and they're pushing that consultancy piece, which looks amazing. And should we announce to the world what we might be doing, mate, with them?

Andy (34:09)

Yeah, let's do that. Yeah, let's do that. So it's turned into a nice partnership. Nice people. So I'm looking forward to a meeting Becca for the first time think she's joining us next Wednesday for our Witten Grit celebration, which we'll share a bit once we've done that. Again, on the 28th of January, we're flying out to Belfast to join them. You're flying to Belfast, mate. Hold your hand. Don't worry.

PJ Ellis (34:21)

Yeah.

There we go, mate. I know.

I'm nervous. did think that would make us international speakers, but you reminded me that obviously Belfast is in the United Kingdom.

Andy (34:46)

It is,

Yeah, So yeah, we're joining them on an event that they're running. And then the next day, they're flying over to Birmingham to come and join us on the 30th of January for our event as well. that's really, really looking forward to that.

PJ Ellis (35:01)

Yeah.

They're great, great people. Talking about takeaways that came very swiftly back into my life.

she said, empathy, empathy, empathy, truth. That was a great way of talking to people who were, you know, experiencing a moment of crisis or, well, just talking to,

Andy (35:16)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (35:20)

anyone with that in mind, you how important empathy was. And actually, I started talking about that on another podcast recently. He took us down a really beautiful conversation about how important that is for children to understand the power of empathy and to be empathetic in all walks of life. I thought that was that was lovely. Equally as good as any probably similar, but sounds very different. She was like in every good conversation, there needs to be a bit of conflict as well.

So all these things have been running around in my head. man, mean, yeah, it was something that really stuck with me that one. It really was. What about you?

Andy (35:56)

Yeah, there's, yeah, just, just on that last bit about, there needs to be a bit of conflict and conversations. Colleagues, colleague of mine I was chatting to the other day, making a conscious decision, you know, to, be bit more honest in conversations, cause it, it helps and it does take a bit of a bit of bravery, doesn't it? You know, things like feedback, giving and receiving feedback. Everyone says, oh yeah, you know, feedback, value feedback, but it's easy to upset someone with a bit of feedback, isn't it?

And I think that's where the empathy, empathy, empathy truth really, really does help. really, really one I've used since then was remember Ted conversations. and I've used that with my kids. Cause I like probably many people sit around the dinner table. So how was your day boys? And fine. what happened today at school boys? Nothing really. What was the best thing? This is the one that really kills me. What was the best thing about school either this week or today?

Coming home. And Katie talked to us about the TED. So, yeah, and TED stands for Tell Me, Explain to Me or Describe to Me. So now I go, describe what happened today, lads, and you actually hear some stuff or tell me about the best thing or tell me about someone who made you smile. And it just gets a conversation going. And the best part of my day is the start of the day sitting, making coffee and having a chat with the lads and...

PJ Ellis (36:53)

Yeah.

Andy (37:17)

and the end scene how they've gotten and maybe sharing stories and insights. yeah, Ted conversations. I really like that one.

PJ Ellis (37:24)

Yeah, honestly, it's like that modeling behavior, like parenting, I've always struggled, know, I really do regret the first eight years of me being a dad. You know, I was searching for X, Y, something I didn't really know what I searching for, but I thought that was at the bottom of a black tie event sort of thing or another networking event. I didn't really see as much time as I'd like to my son for the first eight years.

And I started to think about the way I should pair it. And that was brilliant for me because just that little subtle shift into asking the right questions and saying the right things and listening slightly differently, I think has developed into a really, really better way of conversing with Blake. I still get the whole like, nothing, can't remember, glad to be home.

But actually, this sort of stuff is really educational. It's not just nice chats. It's really affecting the way I have a relationship with my children. It's absolutely fantastic.

there was one thing with Katie, mate, that she said, you might remember, we asked the question when, you know, obviously she's talking to people that have been kidnapped, hostages, whatever it might be, people who want to do bad things to themselves. And we said, what is the what is that one of the first things you shouldn't say? What should you not say?

in those situations.

And she said, the worst thing you can start a conversation with is, think. I calls that just let that settle. often do I mean, I'm talking to myself here. How often I must say that in my narrative to I think this you should do that. I think that that's so dictatorial. It never lets anyone else in, does it? And that's been so helpful.

Andy (38:51)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

you

that.

There's another three-letter word that really winds people up, which is you're having a conversation with someone and they then go, but. Yeah, but, you know, that's soft way of disagreeing, right? Or telling you you're wrong. You know, it's just saying, I think we should do this. We've done this event, should do LinkedIn live, written grit live. Hmm. But, you know, you don't want to hear but, do you? So there are nuances and really nice little takeaways from these conversations. And that was a great one from Katie.

And as with a couple of other convos, think we've had a chimps paradox came up, didn't it? So she talked about Steve Peters and I think he was talking about her son and, you know, calling your chimp out. You know, it's that thing you were talking about. You're telling yourself a story, aren't you, about your first eight years that you feel you weren't as good a dad as you could be. That's the chimp running around in your mind going, you failed. You didn't do that well. Well, we just need to recognize that at times for me, it's three o'clock in the morning when I can't sleep.

These kinds of things go around and around your head and that's your chimp running around trying to disrupt you and, destroy your day and, and pee on your chips. Well, I think she talked about, call your chimp something, you know, think goblor or grobler or something was, was the name that her son used if it was a son. And then you can call out to go, you know, actually not everything's not bad. It's just you get off me, get off me case chimp. I let me crack on. And so I think Steve Peters is.

certainly resonates with a lot of people and he's done a lot of great stuff. Sadly, some of it was for Liverpool, which I'll never forgive him for as an Evertonian. But yeah, think, yeah, great. Really, really, she was ace. I'm really enjoying interacting with those guys as well. They seem a lovely bunch.

PJ Ellis (40:42)

Yeah, you won't mate, you won't.

They are a lovely bunch, mate. I remember it was, I don't think it was Katie on this occasion. It may have been, forgive me if I, it was, but I don't think it was. And Chimp Paradox came up again and somebody told us there was a Chimp Paradox for kids. And ⁓ I rushed out of the conversation to my wife and said, ⁓ there's a Chimp Paradox for the kids. And she said, I know because you've read it to them already. And I was like, my word, where has my head been the last like 14 years? Like, my God, how can I forget reading a book to the kids?

Yeah, you remember there was a she had a lovely little backdrop and she had this big sign saying unity, if you remember. And she was talking about, basically came down to that for her was like unity is built when people feel seen. And what does that mean to you, mate? Because I've got my understanding. But what does that mean to you?

Andy (41:27)

Yeah.

Yeah, I scribbled that down as well. Look for the areas of unity. That's what I she talks about, wasn't it? Yeah, people do need to feel seen, don't they? And I think that's, it's important thing in if you're trying to change something, whether it's a company, whether it's a country, whether it's someone's opinion. And as they all saying is that you got two ears and one tongue in it. So you should kind of listen a lot more than you speak. And that is to give people the opportunity to feel heard and...

And for me, the really important part is contribution. Because if you don't let people be heard, they won't speak up. And if you don't speak up, you're only as good as yourself. And actually, you're probably neglecting everyone else in the room or the company or the country. So for me, that kind of looking for areas of unity and getting people heard is really important for making much better decisions, much more informed decisions. But you've got to be prepared to step back, go quiet and listen to what's going on around you.

PJ Ellis (42:36)

So five very different voices, five completely different journeys, but all seemingly so still pointing towards the same truth, resilience, opportunity, self-belief, all of the above seem to grow when people feel seen, supported, believed in, given opportunities. And I've got a feeling that sort of thread of conversation will continue, mate. And I'm absolutely buzzing because

You know what? I'm sure people already know, but this platform has already given other people opportunities, physical opportunities, connection, network, jobs. I mean, that is pretty cool. That's the heart of Witton Grit, isn't it, mate?

Andy (43:21)

It is. And I was at a cricket dinner last night, my son's cricket club and I bumped Parth and his dad and both thanked us for putting out that hand. And I said, no Parth, you did it all yourself. And he said, no, no, it's made a massive difference. He's had other people contacted him.

PJ Ellis (43:26)

that was.

Andy (43:38)

other firms giving him different opportunities. So he's two weeks into his placement and loving it and traveling around the country. So that's really helped. And then of course, Emma told us about a couple of other opportunities, didn't she? That's kind of come to the university for placements through that. So I love that, mate. And I think there's opportunities for people to get involved in supporting the event as well that we're exploring, aren't they?

PJ Ellis (44:01)

Yeah, mate, definitely. And there's opportunities for people to come and spend their well-earned money, rather, sorry, have a brilliant time at Wit and Grit Live on the 35th of January, www.witandgrit.co.uk. It's all there for you, Babs. On that note, mate, I'll leave you two. You've got a long walk ahead of you today, haven't you, Mukher?

Andy (44:22)

I have. So one last thing, one last thing. want to give us a bit of a pat on the back and you especially. A lot of people may have heard of Bruce Daisley. He's a great podcaster. You know, he's worked at places like Twitter and I love his stuff and he's a blues fan as well and a Brummie. I dropped him a line the other day just to kind of connect and see if he

PJ Ellis (44:24)

yes.

Andy (44:43)

wants to get involved in somehow. And he sent a lovely message back. I won't read it all, but one thing he did say about the pod cause I sent him the link to the events and stuff. And he says, I love the branding. So I'm going to give it a listen. So I think hats off to you. think it is getting noticed. We are getting noticed. I love it myself. The branding when he's, when I compare it with my podcast feed, just sticks out. So, I guess final message from me to you and everyone who's listening to this is thank you. Yeah.

I know people are enjoying it. I know it's making a bit of a difference. more importantly, I'm loving it. I'm enjoying it. And it's making a difference to me and hopefully you as well.

PJ Ellis (45:22)

Definitely, mate. Oh, that's very kind of you. Thank you, mate. I mean, to be fair, you're part, you're 50 % of the brand, mate. So it's down to you really. One thing I do regret about the brand is that I've stuck with it, which is right, authenticity, know, whatever the word is. But I've been done dirty, I'm that puppet generator. If you've the state of me, you're taller than me, which is obviously right. But I've got these little side things going on, man. I look like the dungeon master.

Andy (45:44)

I'm done.