That's the thing I hate most about
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wondering about the mark of the beast
being some piece of technology.
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Oops, I just got the wrong credit card
and now I'm going to hell or something.
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That has nothing to do with one's heart.
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But what John is talking about
is where is your allegiance?
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Are you living your life now
marked by this,
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by God's name on your head
or the world system, name on your head?
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Well, Paul Lamicela,
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Thanks for coming back
on the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.
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So we're both here at Faith Builders
and over supper.
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A few days ago,
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we started an interesting conversation
about a topic
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we've been wanting to do on this podcast
for a very long time, and that is
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how to read the Book of Revelation
and a lot of the surrounding stuff
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that comes with that.
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So we're going to dive right into that
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very large topic and I'm very curious
what all you have to say about it.
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But yeah, maybe just
a short introduction about yourself and,
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and then we'll get into it.
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Yeah.
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So I teach biblical studies.
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I have a Ph.D.
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in biblical theology
and I've gotten increasingly interested in
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and really excited about
the Book of Revelation in recent years
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as I've learned how to read it in
light of the whole of the Bible
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and in light of its genre and some things
we're talking about and realizing
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that it is a really powerful book
that has so much to say to us
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today.
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So I'm excited about some of these things.
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Okay,
So when I look at the Book of Revelation
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and I read it,
I tend to get very confused.
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And you said something last night
that was really helpful for me
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and that is that whole genre question of
what is this book?
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How does it fit into the New Testament
and so forth and the surrounding context?
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Yeah, explain that a bit.
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What are we talking about
when we look at Revelation
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and what would I guess, broadly speaking,
what genre is this book?
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Yeah, so, you know, the first thing to say
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probably is that when,
whenever we read a text,
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we automatically
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get clues from the text
about how to read it, right?
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So when I teach about genre in class,
I put up a list of very,
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I put examples of various types of text.
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So I'll throw up something from a poem,
right?
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And students automatically know
just because
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they're familiar with this genre
from our culture, they see the words
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the lines,
you know, broken up into different lines.
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They just to get the feel of it.
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It's not always easy exactly to pin down
why, but, you know, right.
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Because you're like, that's a poem.
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And then a whole bunch of assumptions
go into how you're supposed to read that.
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And I put up another example
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from like an instruction manual
or something, and instantly, again,
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you know how to read it or a fairy
tale and, you know how to read it
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and the Book of Revelation
is the same way.
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And it's
meant to be read in a certain way.
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The reason I think,
one of the main reasons we have in our
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sort of
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modern Western evangelical Christianity,
including,
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and I include, you know, anabaptism
in that for purposes of this,
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the reason we have trouble with it
is that it's a genre
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that we don't have
any other examples of in our own culture.
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So what I like to tell students
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is, that that's a problem with us,
not with the text,
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but that if you would go back
to first century
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Jerusalem and go to a Barnes and Noble’s
in Jerusalem, you would
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actually, there would be a whole shelf
with apocalyptic texts.
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And so you would, it wouldn't be like
revelation is just this one weird thing.
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you would recognize
as soon as you start reading.
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yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
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I know what this, I know how to read this
because I've read other texts like this,
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Okay.
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What? Like
you're mentioning the apocalyptic genre.
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So that's where you're framing this book
within the New Testament.
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Yes.
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So maybe elaborate on that. What is that?
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So why this is so important?
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Is that meaning?
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When I write something, like the genre
I write it in determines
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how I expect the reader
to get meaning out of it, Right?
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So if I write a
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children's story,
I would be really mad at you
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if you came back to me
with like a whole list of critiques
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because you were trying to take it
literally, “literally”.
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And, you're like,
It doesn't work or something,
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where you interpret
it in ways I never intended.
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And like, what I would say to you is,
no, this is a children's story.
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You have to read it
like a children's story. Right?
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And if you said, well, but I want,
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I was trying to read you literally,
I wouldn't be impressed.
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I'd be annoyed because I would say
you're actually not taking me seriously.
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Like, you're playing games with me.
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Meaning comes when we read a text.
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The goal is not to impose our own
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sort of ideas
on how we should read it, but
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to submit ourselves to the way
the author has written it.
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And I think that's especially true
when we're dealing with the Bible
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because there's not only a human author,
John, but also a divine author.
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And if we take seriously the fact
that Scripture is inspired by God,
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then our only choice is to submit to the
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the ways
that God has chosen to reveal himself.
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And that means apocalyptic genre
in this case.
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Right?
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And so if we come, I mean, I want to
preface everything I’m going to say,
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because for some people this is new
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just due to
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trends in the last hundred years
in our country basically,
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and dispensationalism and stuff.
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But to say that
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the goal is never to say
I need to read something literally.
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The goal is to say how does God
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and the human author want me to read this?
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And that's a question
that has to do with genre.
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So if I go to a parable of Jesus
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and I say, I need to take this literally,
Jesus wouldn't be impressed, right?
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Because he's like, No, that's a parable.
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And so to submit to him in that
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area means I need to understand
that he's chosen to speak in a parable,
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and I need to interpret parables the way
parables are meant to be interpreted.
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If I go to a psalm,
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the same thing.
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It's a poem
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and I have to interpret it as a poem
because that's how David wrote it
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and that's how the Holy Spirit wanted it
written, right?
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And the same with Revelation.
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So I'm going to explain
how apocalyptic works.
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But the reason why that's important
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is that, again,
this is how John has chosen to communicate
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and this is how the spirit has inspired
this, you know, intended this to be
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and to take this seriously
and to submit to it as Scripture
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means to be sensitive to the way
that God has chosen it to be written, i.e.
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apocalyptic literature. Okay, So.
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that makes a lot of sense.
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And I know
and I can already see the comments
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that will be coming in where people like,
but you're misidentifying the genre.
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You're, you know, this, that, whatever.
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I'm sure there'll be lots of,
lots of ideas floating around there.
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But I think that
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a key question for some people will be,
well,
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how how come you're defining it
as apocalyptic, you know, genre?
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You know, You know what I mean?
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Like because honestly, when you're,
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we were kind of batting this around
over the last couple of days
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before we recorded this,
and you were saying some of that.
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And I'm like, okay, I guess I don't know.
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I've never I've never heard that before
or I've never thought about it
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quite like that.
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I guess I kind of know that in my head
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but like,
what even is the apocalyptic genre.
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So let's talk about apocalyptic.
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So apocalyptic as a genre
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is, we scholars talk about it as,
as basically consisting of kind
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of a story,
a narrative and written presentation
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where you have a God's eye perspective
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of history of the present
and the future kind of together.
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That's revealed
usually by an angel or some other
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kind of heavenly tour guide,
I call them usually, right? So
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it's,
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usually a human who's having a vision
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of these realities
that's mediated or explained by an angel
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and that uses very colorful, complex
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imagery and symbolism to do this.
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And the goal of such text
is to give God's
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suffering people hope
and challenge in time of difficulty.
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So that's kind of the basic features
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of how this, and central to
that is these very,
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you know, very symbol laden
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usage of numbers,
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other kinds of symbols
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representing other of the things.
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So that, and now again, this revelation
isn't the only text we have like this.
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So this way of writing and speaking
kind of
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basically The Fountainhead
seems to be the book of Daniel
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and he, where he has, again
you can think of some of these visions
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that he has where there's an angel
that kind of shows him stuff or he has
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these, visions of beasts and,
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representing kingdoms
and all this sort of thing.
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And the angel kind of tells him so.
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So that kind of, that is the Fountainhead.
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But then what happens
is in the next few centuries from,
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you know, three hundreds
or so B.C all the way
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to 90 or around 100 A.D.
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we have a number, a decent number of texts
like this being written in Jewish,
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non-Christian, Jewish circles, I mean
many cases pre-Christian Jewish circles.
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So we have
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a good number of
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examples that follow the same pattern.
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And so the reason why people are maybe
unsure, skeptical
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is, only that they have never read
other apocalyptic texts.
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As soon as you start reading them, it's
very obvious
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that that's what revelation is. Okay.
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00:10:00,474 --> 00:10:06,355
So you mentioned Daniel as maybe
The Fountainhead or a representing piece,
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which makes sense
because when people go down
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this whole street of trying to figure out,
well,
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what does it mean and all this stuff,
they are always, it's like,
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always going back to Daniel,
it seems like. Right.
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Like I've heard that a lot.
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Revelation is like
full of Daniel imagery, too.
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So what are some of these other,
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like, apocalyptic texts
that I'm assuming Most of us?
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I can't think of any
that I've read personally. No.
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So I mean there's, a bunch, fourth Ezra
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The Enoch literature,
so it's called First Enoch,
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but there's, it's a collection
of a few different apocalypses.
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Those are big,
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very big in the era of the New Testament,
very popular.
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I think they may have made the Jerusalem
or the, I don't know,
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that wouldn’t be the Amazon,
maybe be the Jordan, jordan.com, Jordan
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River
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or something
bestseller list, I don't know.
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And then
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00:11:00,701 --> 00:11:04,455
other texts like these.
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What I'm going to, I have a few examples
from the Sibylline oracles.
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00:11:09,251 --> 00:11:09,919
please, if you have examples. Yeah.
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00:11:09,919 --> 00:11:14,423
So and what we'll see
is that what's going on here.
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People like to describe
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apocalyptic literature in Revelation
as functioning,
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00:11:20,721 --> 00:11:25,309
similar in some ways to the way
political cartoons operate in our culture
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where you can, and think about this,
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those people, we will say when you read,
when you open the newspaper,
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I mean, I don't know
if anyone does anymore, but if in theory,
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if someone would open the newspaper,
you can have an article
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maybe on the front page
that describes some political event.
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00:11:45,538 --> 00:11:47,498
Right. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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But then on the next page,
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you can have the, sort of the comics,
and that same event might be spoken of,
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but in political cartoon form.
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00:11:55,756 --> 00:11:56,257
Right?
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It’s the same thing, but two extremely
different ways of coming about it.
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The one uses just prose and kind of
explains stuff in everyday language,
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00:12:04,557 --> 00:12:09,145
and then the other one uses imagery
that you have to be really familiar with
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00:12:09,562 --> 00:12:12,565
and you actually can't get
anything out of it unless you already know
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most of what it's trying to say,
because you have to know...
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so, for example,
I mean, the two political parties
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in the United States are symbolized
by the donkey and the elephant.
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Right.
237
00:12:22,366 --> 00:12:25,369
And so if I'm drawing a political cartoon,
I just have to, like,
238
00:12:25,578 --> 00:12:27,830
dress up
those characters in suits or something.
239
00:12:27,830 --> 00:12:31,876
And we know that when you see a donkey
or an elephant.
240
00:12:32,084 --> 00:12:32,501
okay.
241
00:12:32,501 --> 00:12:35,880
So the Republicans are doing this
and the Democrats are doing that.
242
00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:36,589
Right.
243
00:12:36,589 --> 00:12:39,592
But you only know that
if you're steeped in that symbolism, that
244
00:12:40,134 --> 00:12:42,094
is part of our cultural encyclopedia.
245
00:12:42,094 --> 00:12:47,266
If you are from, I don't know, Asia
and have never heard about, you don't know
246
00:12:47,266 --> 00:12:51,437
the symbolism, you read this cartoon,
you're like, is this a children's cartoon?
247
00:12:51,437 --> 00:12:55,399
Are these,
you know, some sort of ancient Hindu gods
248
00:12:55,399 --> 00:12:56,984
that are making a comeback
in the United States?
249
00:12:56,984 --> 00:12:58,486
Like what's going on? Like, you know,
250
00:12:59,737 --> 00:13:01,197
so that we see
251
00:13:01,197 --> 00:13:04,784
all over Revelation,
but we also see that in these other texts
252
00:13:05,367 --> 00:13:08,662
and some of the same symbol,
the same sort of cartoon tropes
253
00:13:09,705 --> 00:13:12,291
we see here that we see
used in Revelation.
254
00:13:12,291 --> 00:13:13,793
So I'm going to go through a few.
255
00:13:13,793 --> 00:13:17,546
And when you start reading them,
you start thinking, especially if you
256
00:13:17,546 --> 00:13:21,884
I mean, if you know Revelation decently,
you start going like, wait, I've read.
257
00:13:21,884 --> 00:13:23,677
I know what this is talking about.
258
00:13:23,677 --> 00:13:28,557
And again, just to reiterate,
this is from, like you're saying, 300 B.C.
259
00:13:28,557 --> 00:13:30,267
on up through like, a hundred A.D.
260
00:13:30,267 --> 00:13:32,812
era. Yes.
261
00:13:32,812 --> 00:13:34,063
So this...
262
00:13:34,063 --> 00:13:36,774
So Sibylline Oracles is a collection of,
263
00:13:36,774 --> 00:13:40,110
texts that are written
over a span of a long time.
264
00:13:40,110 --> 00:13:42,404
And some of them are Christian.
265
00:13:42,404 --> 00:13:46,283
These are not, this, from number
Sibylline oracles five, is Jewish,
266
00:13:47,243 --> 00:13:48,994
which is important because if
267
00:13:48,994 --> 00:13:52,623
I give you examples from Christian texts,
then that would probably be drawing
268
00:13:52,623 --> 00:13:53,749
on Revelation.
269
00:13:53,749 --> 00:13:56,418
So that would not be appropriate
background, you know,
270
00:13:56,418 --> 00:13:59,088
But so these we believe are, this text
271
00:13:59,088 --> 00:14:02,341
we believe is written
probably between 70 and 130 A.D.
272
00:14:02,675 --> 00:14:06,095
So we're talking right at the same time
Jon's writing revelation,
273
00:14:06,095 --> 00:14:08,347
which makes it extra special, right?
274
00:14:08,347 --> 00:14:10,933
Because it shows
what's in the air and what, you know,
275
00:14:10,933 --> 00:14:13,018
and what Jon's familiar
with in the culture.
276
00:14:13,018 --> 00:14:14,854
cultural context Exactly.
277
00:14:14,854 --> 00:14:17,022
Yeah, the culture encyclopedia,
as we call it.
278
00:14:17,022 --> 00:14:18,440
Right. Okay.
279
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,694
So here's a few examples of features,
280
00:14:22,319 --> 00:14:26,156
tropes, images that we see here
that I think are relevant to reading this.
281
00:14:26,156 --> 00:14:32,788
So we have,
this text has this long section
282
00:14:32,788 --> 00:14:36,250
where it goes through the leader,
283
00:14:36,250 --> 00:14:39,253
the emperors and such of Rome,
284
00:14:39,628 --> 00:14:42,631
but it never refers to any of them
by name.
285
00:14:43,090 --> 00:14:47,595
It just hints at what their first letters
of their names are by using numbers.
286
00:14:48,637 --> 00:14:49,930
So here it says in
287
00:14:49,930 --> 00:14:51,181
Sibylline Articles five...
288
00:15:03,819 --> 00:15:06,780
Now, what are the infants
children of the flock devouring beast?
289
00:15:07,364 --> 00:15:09,825
First of all, You know? No. Okay.
290
00:15:09,825 --> 00:15:11,660
I mean, you will know as soon as it.
291
00:15:11,660 --> 00:15:14,455
So this is a cartoon image just like.
292
00:15:14,455 --> 00:15:18,208
I mean, I'm using that
just like if I would use the elephant
293
00:15:18,208 --> 00:15:23,005
to represent the Republicans, the infants,
children of the flock devouring beast.
294
00:15:23,005 --> 00:15:25,758
So a flock devouring beast is a wolf.
295
00:15:25,758 --> 00:15:26,926
Right.
296
00:15:26,926 --> 00:15:29,929
And these are infants
who are children of a wolf.
297
00:15:30,387 --> 00:15:30,846
Who's that?
298
00:15:30,846 --> 00:15:34,767
it's Romulus
and Remus, the mythical founders of Rome.
299
00:15:34,767 --> 00:15:35,935
Right.
300
00:15:35,935 --> 00:15:38,729
I mean, which you're familiar
with that right?
301
00:15:38,729 --> 00:15:39,980
So. Right.
302
00:15:39,980 --> 00:15:40,856
But it's just using.
303
00:15:40,856 --> 00:15:43,859
So it doesn't, it's not saying Rome.
304
00:15:43,984 --> 00:15:46,987
It's just telling you the,
305
00:15:47,154 --> 00:15:51,450
it's using the little image, the icon
almost, of the founding myth of Rome.
306
00:15:51,450 --> 00:15:52,576
Right.
307
00:15:52,576 --> 00:15:55,704
So it's basically after Rome begins,
308
00:15:55,704 --> 00:15:58,582
after these infants, Romulus and Remus,
children of the flock devouring...
309
00:15:58,582 --> 00:16:01,085
So the myth for those who don't know.
310
00:16:01,085 --> 00:16:04,254
Is that Rome was founded by these twins,
well,
311
00:16:04,713 --> 00:16:07,591
actually, it was by one of them
after he killed his brother, I think.
312
00:16:07,591 --> 00:16:11,220
But there were these twins,
Romulus and Remus, that were abandoned
313
00:16:11,220 --> 00:16:13,347
by their mother,
apparently, and suckled by a she wolf.
314
00:16:13,347 --> 00:16:15,057
Kind of raised by a wolf. Right.
315
00:16:15,057 --> 00:16:16,684
And they then, you know, started...
316
00:16:16,684 --> 00:16:20,396
So after this happens, there will be
the first prince of apparently Rome
317
00:16:20,729 --> 00:16:24,441
who will sum up twice ten
with his initial letter.
318
00:16:24,942 --> 00:16:25,025
Okay. And
319
00:16:26,443 --> 00:16:26,902
then it says.
320
00:16:26,902 --> 00:16:28,153
So it keeps going,
321
00:16:34,827 --> 00:16:37,788
So what in the world is going on here?
322
00:16:38,414 --> 00:16:40,207
His number will sum up twice.
323
00:16:40,207 --> 00:16:41,709
He will sum up twice ten with...
324
00:16:41,709 --> 00:16:44,128
How do you sum up ten with a letter?
325
00:16:44,128 --> 00:16:49,967
So in the ancient world, we don't have
numerals to represent numbers.
326
00:16:50,217 --> 00:16:50,759
Right.
327
00:16:50,759 --> 00:16:53,929
That's kind of a later
Arabic kind of thing,
328
00:16:53,929 --> 00:16:56,348
which is one of the best inventions
of all time, probably.
329
00:16:56,348 --> 00:16:57,266
I asked my students,
330
00:16:57,266 --> 00:17:01,020
How would you like doing long division
with using letters instead of numbers.
331
00:17:01,186 --> 00:17:02,813
It's terrible. Right.
332
00:17:02,813 --> 00:17:05,816
But so what you do instead is
you have a system whereby
333
00:17:05,816 --> 00:17:08,777
every letter stands for a number
334
00:17:08,902 --> 00:17:12,406
and so, you know, the first
several letters might stand
335
00:17:12,406 --> 00:17:15,534
for the first several numbers,
but then you'll have other later letters
336
00:17:15,534 --> 00:17:18,537
in the alphabet that stand for 20
or 30 or 100 or things like that.
337
00:17:19,329 --> 00:17:22,249
So if you live in a culture
that that does that right,
338
00:17:22,249 --> 00:17:25,419
then you're you're going to start playing
little games with this.
339
00:17:25,419 --> 00:17:27,755
Because when you see people's names,
340
00:17:27,755 --> 00:17:31,425
you're going to also now
recognize those characters as numbers.
341
00:17:31,425 --> 00:17:33,886
And you can always do a little math
calculations in your head. right?
342
00:17:35,095 --> 00:17:36,013
So and
343
00:17:36,013 --> 00:17:36,889
yeah, and there would always
344
00:17:36,889 --> 00:17:40,893
be this kind of
you can imagine there being these kids,
345
00:17:40,893 --> 00:17:43,604
probably boys of a certain age
that would just annoy everybody
346
00:17:43,604 --> 00:17:46,356
by referring to people by their numbers
and stuff like that.
347
00:17:46,356 --> 00:17:47,858
Right.
348
00:17:47,858 --> 00:17:50,861
But, but anyway, this is why,
this is called Gematria ,
349
00:17:50,861 --> 00:17:53,739
the use of kind of studying
350
00:17:53,739 --> 00:17:56,742
or thinking about playing with
351
00:17:57,284 --> 00:18:00,662
words or names,
especially with their numbers.
352
00:18:01,455 --> 00:18:03,540
So this happens,
353
00:18:03,540 --> 00:18:06,376
and this happens
not just in literary texts, but
354
00:18:06,376 --> 00:18:10,631
there was a, we have evidence of this
in graffiti from the ancient world.
355
00:18:10,631 --> 00:18:13,133
And I think this is awesome.
356
00:18:13,133 --> 00:18:16,095
But I think it was in Smyrna
from the second century A.D.
357
00:18:16,095 --> 00:18:19,723
So this is one of the places that this,
the Book of Revelation was sent to, right?
358
00:18:19,723 --> 00:18:22,309
Because one of the seven churches right.
359
00:18:22,309 --> 00:18:27,397
And archeologists uncovered a graffito
where some,
360
00:18:27,397 --> 00:18:31,401
you know, second century young guy
had spray painted or whatever they,
361
00:18:31,443 --> 00:18:35,906
I don't know how they did it back then,
but they're spray painted on some wall.
362
00:18:36,198 --> 00:18:40,369
I love the girl whose number is 1085
or something like that, right.
363
00:18:40,369 --> 00:18:43,872
And he wasn't talking about her phone
number, but he was talking about that.
364
00:18:44,081 --> 00:18:47,209
The letters of her name
add up to this thing.
365
00:18:47,251 --> 00:18:50,295
And so he probably has like half the girls
in Smyrna, like trying to calculate,
366
00:18:50,295 --> 00:18:52,798
is this me, you know,
which is just fantastic.
367
00:18:52,798 --> 00:18:53,882
But all that goes...
368
00:18:55,050 --> 00:18:57,219
But it goes to show
369
00:18:57,219 --> 00:18:59,054
this type of thing is common. Right.
370
00:18:59,054 --> 00:19:03,392
And so in apocalyptic literature,
this type of thing is big,
371
00:19:03,392 --> 00:19:06,812
because numbers, unlike in
other types of literature, in apocalyptic,
372
00:19:06,812 --> 00:19:09,815
numbers are always symbolic of something.
373
00:19:09,815 --> 00:19:10,065
Right.
374
00:19:10,065 --> 00:19:12,609
You just have to know what the numbers
stand for. Okay.
375
00:19:12,609 --> 00:19:15,154
So which makes a lot of sense because
376
00:19:15,154 --> 00:19:18,782
even just glance through revelation
and there's numbers all over the place.
377
00:19:18,782 --> 00:19:21,535
Yeah, And they always,
they're significant numbers.
378
00:19:21,535 --> 00:19:24,329
Yeah. They stand in for something.
379
00:19:24,329 --> 00:19:28,500
So in this case he goes,
he speaks of Caesar
380
00:19:29,585 --> 00:19:33,130
as beginning with the number ten.
381
00:19:33,130 --> 00:19:34,131
Right.
382
00:19:34,131 --> 00:19:38,135
And then because Julius Caesar is.
383
00:19:38,385 --> 00:19:40,470
the I is,
384
00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:42,264
stands for the number ten.
385
00:19:42,264 --> 00:19:44,558
Right.
386
00:19:44,558 --> 00:19:47,561
And then he refers to the one after him
387
00:19:47,769 --> 00:19:52,107
as being Augustus, the person
with the first letter of the alphabet.
388
00:19:52,107 --> 00:19:56,320
So that's just one example of how this,
and this text goes on and on.
389
00:19:56,612 --> 00:19:59,615
They're talking
about the next number of emperors,
390
00:19:59,823 --> 00:20:01,950
all with the number
of their initial letter.
391
00:20:01,950 --> 00:20:04,786
Instead of ever saying their names.
392
00:20:04,786 --> 00:20:06,288
So we have Roman emperors
393
00:20:07,372 --> 00:20:07,831
who are
394
00:20:07,831 --> 00:20:11,752
children, or sorry, descendants
of this beast, right.
395
00:20:11,752 --> 00:20:14,755
That are all referred
to by the number of their name.
396
00:20:15,255 --> 00:20:16,840
Right.
397
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:18,759
Well, that's interesting
398
00:20:18,759 --> 00:20:22,346
because this is starting to already
sound like revelation, isn't it?
399
00:20:22,846 --> 00:20:23,555
Right.
400
00:20:23,555 --> 00:20:27,726
Where John says
that the mark of the beast,
401
00:20:27,726 --> 00:20:30,729
which is the name of the beast
or the number of its name,
402
00:20:31,980 --> 00:20:34,566
and you're like, wait,
I read stuff like that here.
403
00:20:34,566 --> 00:20:37,110
Right? That's one example.
404
00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:39,154
Another example is how these texts
405
00:20:39,154 --> 00:20:42,115
will speak of Rome as Babylon.
406
00:20:42,658 --> 00:20:45,327
Why? Well, I think the reason is that
407
00:20:45,327 --> 00:20:49,665
there were only two nations
408
00:20:49,665 --> 00:20:52,918
that ever destroyed
Jerusalem and destroyed the temple.
409
00:20:53,168 --> 00:20:56,046
And they were Babylon and Rome. Okay?
410
00:20:56,046 --> 00:20:57,130
Yes. Yeah.
411
00:20:57,130 --> 00:21:00,133
And so especially as you get to the,
412
00:21:00,968 --> 00:21:04,304
you know, texts that were written after
the destruction of Jerusalem in 1870,
413
00:21:04,554 --> 00:21:08,016
it's going to be so natural
to think of Rome as the new Babylon.
414
00:21:08,267 --> 00:21:10,602
Yeah, right. Okay. Yeah,
415
00:21:11,561 --> 00:21:11,812
Yeah.
416
00:21:11,812 --> 00:21:14,815
And so by again, by overlaying Babylon,
417
00:21:14,815 --> 00:21:17,943
by speaking of Rome as Babylon,
almost like a cartoon image again,
418
00:21:18,568 --> 00:21:22,447
you pick up and invest
what's going on in the present
419
00:21:22,447 --> 00:21:25,701
with all the meaning and symbolism
of the story in the old Testament.
420
00:21:25,742 --> 00:21:28,745
And that's kind of tying in with
what Daniel would be saying
421
00:21:28,954 --> 00:21:29,788
in some ways, Right?
422
00:21:29,788 --> 00:21:32,916
Because he was writing in Babylon,
like he was a captive in Babylon as well.
423
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:34,710
Okay. Interesting. Yeah.
424
00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:39,298
And if you’re a christian, like John,
then Rome has even more significance
425
00:21:39,298 --> 00:21:44,094
as Babylon, because Rome also has
this eschatological significance in that
426
00:21:44,094 --> 00:21:47,431
it was in part responsible
for the crucifixion of the Messiah.
427
00:21:48,265 --> 00:21:49,016
Right.
428
00:21:49,016 --> 00:21:52,352
And so Rome, for you, isn’t
only the city that
429
00:21:52,728 --> 00:21:55,731
the nation sort of the empire
that just destroyed Jerusalem.
430
00:21:55,731 --> 00:21:58,108
But it also stands in for the ultimate
431
00:21:59,151 --> 00:21:59,860
adversary
432
00:21:59,860 --> 00:22:02,904
of God and God's people,
because it is this nation
433
00:22:02,904 --> 00:22:06,700
that this people, these leaders
that crucified Jesus.
434
00:22:07,242 --> 00:22:07,576
Right.
435
00:22:07,576 --> 00:22:11,371
And so whatever happens in the future,
you can, any,
436
00:22:11,371 --> 00:22:14,374
all of God's enemies, the power,
the forces, the powers,
437
00:22:14,666 --> 00:22:18,045
the political powers
or whatever that oppose God can always be
438
00:22:18,045 --> 00:22:22,132
thought of as Rome in a sense,
because Rome is the beginning
439
00:22:22,132 --> 00:22:26,345
of the powers that stood against
and crucified, you know, persecuted Jesus.
440
00:22:26,970 --> 00:22:29,973
So it adds that layer of thing there.
441
00:22:29,973 --> 00:22:32,893
So in this text it says...
442
00:22:51,828 --> 00:22:55,874
Now Poseidon is a
is a chaos monster, right?
443
00:22:55,874 --> 00:23:00,379
And here this great star is destroying
444
00:23:02,881 --> 00:23:05,634
the sea, the Sea Dragon sea monster,
445
00:23:05,634 --> 00:23:08,720
Which is actually the same thing
that revelation is trying to say
446
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,140
in Revelation 21 when he says in
the new creation, the sea will be no more.
447
00:23:12,808 --> 00:23:13,558
Right.
448
00:23:13,558 --> 00:23:16,645
It's not that John
has anything against seas.
449
00:23:16,853 --> 00:23:19,731
But that the sea in this context
450
00:23:19,731 --> 00:23:22,859
represents chaos and that sort of thing.
451
00:23:22,901 --> 00:23:23,151
Right.
452
00:23:23,151 --> 00:23:26,363
So here it’s spoken of as just a sea
monster, Poseidon of the sea,
453
00:23:27,406 --> 00:23:29,074
and in
revelation it’s just spoken of as a sea.
454
00:23:29,074 --> 00:23:32,327
So this great star comes
which will destroy the earth...
455
00:23:47,509 --> 00:23:48,802
now, so
456
00:23:49,219 --> 00:23:52,556
this star, we'll talk about in a minute
what stars represent.
457
00:23:52,556 --> 00:23:54,141
But the star will come.
458
00:23:54,141 --> 00:23:57,686
It's not a flaming ball of gas,
in the apocalyptic.
459
00:23:57,978 --> 00:24:02,732
But a star which comes from heaven
and burns the deep sea and Babylon itself
460
00:24:02,732 --> 00:24:05,735
and the land of Italy, it's clearly
not talking about the Babylon that's over.
461
00:24:06,069 --> 00:24:07,737
You know, over here.
462
00:24:07,737 --> 00:24:09,448
It's speaking of Rome.
463
00:24:09,448 --> 00:24:12,033
Right.
It's the Babylon in the land of Italy.
464
00:24:12,033 --> 00:24:13,827
But it's
speaking of it as a Babylon. Right?
465
00:24:13,827 --> 00:24:19,666
And I mean, in Revelation,
we have the same, there's a lot of Babylon
466
00:24:19,666 --> 00:24:23,044
imagery, but it's intertwined
also with Rome imagery.
467
00:24:24,504 --> 00:24:27,090
You know,
John does exactly the same thing.
468
00:24:27,090 --> 00:24:29,593
So have one more example of this here.
469
00:24:44,816 --> 00:24:46,234
This is Romulus and Remus again.
470
00:24:46,568 --> 00:24:49,863
So. Okay, so basically,
this is it’s crazy way of saying
471
00:24:51,698 --> 00:24:53,742
when Rome starts, right?
472
00:25:09,424 --> 00:25:10,967
So when Romulus and Remus
473
00:25:10,967 --> 00:25:14,387
grow up, in other words,
when Rome kind of reaches its power,
474
00:25:14,930 --> 00:25:18,475
they will cast down
headlong many who have shameless spirit
475
00:25:18,892 --> 00:25:20,185
from seven strong hills.
476
00:25:20,185 --> 00:25:23,104
So they're going to do a lot of,
wreak a lot of havoc
477
00:25:23,104 --> 00:25:25,607
from these or on these seven hills.
478
00:25:25,607 --> 00:25:26,983
And it says both.
479
00:25:26,983 --> 00:25:29,736
Both of these infants, number 100,
480
00:25:29,736 --> 00:25:32,989
which the letter R,
Romulus and Remus stands for 100.
481
00:25:32,989 --> 00:25:35,492
okay. Okay.
482
00:25:35,492 --> 00:25:36,201
Yeah. Wow.
483
00:25:36,201 --> 00:25:39,204
I was getting yeah, I was like,
what is this 100 thing?
484
00:25:39,496 --> 00:25:42,541
It's going back to the number,
the number representing the first letter
485
00:25:42,541 --> 00:25:43,708
of their name. Yeah.
486
00:25:43,708 --> 00:25:45,794
So now you're like, wow, that's
that's complicated.
487
00:25:45,794 --> 00:25:47,754
Well, maybe, but it would be.
488
00:25:47,754 --> 00:25:50,757
That's actually not any more complicated
than a modern political cartoon.
489
00:25:50,924 --> 00:25:53,468
But wouldn’t this also,
I'm just totally speculating here.
490
00:25:53,468 --> 00:25:56,888
But if they didn't have, you know, mass
printing presses, for example,
491
00:25:56,972 --> 00:25:59,933
you had to encode this in ways
to make it easy to remember.
492
00:25:59,933 --> 00:26:03,019
Is this just a way to make it easy
to remember stuff like with
493
00:26:03,186 --> 00:26:07,190
extremely vivid imagery like that
and encoding information into it?
494
00:26:07,190 --> 00:26:09,025
Or is this just, this is just a style?
495
00:26:09,025 --> 00:26:10,193
It's a style.
496
00:26:10,193 --> 00:26:13,738
It makes it, gives you a different
497
00:26:15,949 --> 00:26:17,284
feel right,
498
00:26:17,284 --> 00:26:22,205
because it's not pretending to provide
information as much as it is to remind
499
00:26:22,455 --> 00:26:27,377
embattled people that despite the fact
that things seem chaotic,
500
00:26:27,794 --> 00:26:30,714
that God is still sovereign over it,
He has a plan for it.
501
00:26:30,714 --> 00:26:36,136
He's got things under control
and the future is known to him
502
00:26:36,511 --> 00:26:41,016
and can be hinted at to us
and that sort of thing.
503
00:26:41,266 --> 00:26:44,269
So it's meant that way. Yeah.
504
00:26:44,477 --> 00:26:45,186
That's just interesting,
505
00:26:45,186 --> 00:26:48,273
because, again, to our modern ears,
all of this seems pretty bizarre.
506
00:26:48,273 --> 00:26:52,235
And maybe that's why there's so much
fascination around Revelation now.
507
00:26:52,277 --> 00:26:54,654
You know, it's just like,
what is this, you know.
508
00:26:54,654 --> 00:26:57,657
So, the seven strong Hills. What’s that?
509
00:26:58,283 --> 00:26:58,950
Isn't Rome built on 7 hills or something?
510
00:26:58,950 --> 00:27:00,410
Exactly right.
511
00:27:00,410 --> 00:27:03,955
And so it's just like if I say, you know,
512
00:27:04,956 --> 00:27:07,959
you talk about all the corruption
in the Windy City.
513
00:27:08,376 --> 00:27:08,918
Right?
514
00:27:08,918 --> 00:27:12,672
Well, if you you know, we know
the Windy City is a stand in for Chicago.
515
00:27:12,922 --> 00:27:14,257
Yeah, right. Which is terrible.
516
00:27:14,257 --> 00:27:15,884
Which is very corrupt.
517
00:27:15,884 --> 00:27:19,012
But if I say the Big Apple, it’s
New York,
518
00:27:19,638 --> 00:27:22,641
if I say the city on Seven Hills,
519
00:27:23,516 --> 00:27:26,519
it is Rome, right?
520
00:27:26,603 --> 00:27:29,773
It's again, it's just another trope
that you are supposed to know.
521
00:27:29,773 --> 00:27:33,943
Now what's again
522
00:27:33,943 --> 00:27:36,946
what's really interesting about this is
523
00:27:38,490 --> 00:27:41,868
if we go to Revelation,
524
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,163
just really quick here, you have
525
00:27:45,664 --> 00:27:47,749
the same imagery used.
526
00:27:47,749 --> 00:27:49,751
Yeah, I was going to say
that sounds familiar, right?
527
00:27:49,751 --> 00:27:50,585
I mean, it's.
528
00:27:50,585 --> 00:27:52,879
Yeah, it's used in here somewhere.
529
00:27:52,879 --> 00:27:54,506
It is.
530
00:27:54,506 --> 00:27:59,177
so in Revelation 17, verse five.
531
00:27:59,427 --> 00:28:04,349
On her forehead, this is the prostitute,
which picks up Old Testament.
532
00:28:04,349 --> 00:28:06,810
So I, we're talking about all this genre
stuff.
533
00:28:06,810 --> 00:28:10,230
What John is doing is, in this genre,
534
00:28:11,231 --> 00:28:13,942
he's pulling almost everything
out of the Old Testament.
535
00:28:13,942 --> 00:28:16,945
Revelation
is just absolutely full of Old Testament,
536
00:28:17,404 --> 00:28:19,447
the Old Testament stories, Old Testament
imagery.
537
00:28:19,447 --> 00:28:21,700
It's all coming to its climax
in this book.
538
00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:26,871
So the prostitute, on her forehead
was written a name of mystery.
539
00:28:27,122 --> 00:28:28,707
And what is her name? Babylon.
540
00:28:28,707 --> 00:28:31,167
The great mother of prostitutes
and earth's abominations.
541
00:28:31,167 --> 00:28:34,003
So she's this prostitute called Babylon.
542
00:28:34,003 --> 00:28:38,883
And already, if you're reading this text
in this century
543
00:28:39,384 --> 00:28:43,179
and you're familiar with, you know, this
probably refers to Rome, right?
544
00:28:44,681 --> 00:28:47,100
Drunk with the blood of the saints,
the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
545
00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:49,102
And remember, this is like after Nero.
546
00:28:49,102 --> 00:28:51,312
So, you know.
547
00:28:51,312 --> 00:28:52,313
Oh, that's a really good point.
548
00:28:52,313 --> 00:28:53,148
Stuff is happening.
549
00:28:53,148 --> 00:28:56,151
For context.
When was Nero Emperor roughly.
550
00:28:56,443 --> 00:28:59,320
It was before Revelation was written.
551
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,781
What are the exact years?
552
00:29:01,781 --> 00:29:03,074
I think the sixties.
553
00:29:03,074 --> 00:29:04,784
Yeah, the sixties sounds right. Yeah.
554
00:29:04,784 --> 00:29:08,496
Because I just remember, you know,
knowing that when Paul was writing, like,
555
00:29:08,913 --> 00:29:11,166
the book of Romans,
you know, Nero would have been the current
556
00:29:11,166 --> 00:29:12,167
emperor, for example.
557
00:29:13,209 --> 00:29:14,085
Yeah, exactly.
558
00:29:14,085 --> 00:29:14,294
Yeah.
559
00:29:14,294 --> 00:29:15,295
Nero had him executed.
560
00:29:15,295 --> 00:29:17,380
So a really bad person.
561
00:29:17,380 --> 00:29:19,257
Yeah,
he did a lot of things against the church.
562
00:29:19,257 --> 00:29:20,216
Okay. Fascinating.
563
00:29:20,216 --> 00:29:20,842
Good context.
564
00:29:20,842 --> 00:29:23,845
Okay, so
565
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,224
he kind of talks a little about this
566
00:29:28,224 --> 00:29:31,436
and then verse nine,
This calls for a mind with wisdom.
567
00:29:32,270 --> 00:29:32,604
Okay.
568
00:29:32,604 --> 00:29:34,481
So it’s like, John’s like,
think about this.
569
00:29:34,481 --> 00:29:37,400
Think about the imagery here.
570
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,110
So she's sitting on a beast
with seven heads.
571
00:29:39,110 --> 00:29:40,695
I think I should have said that.
572
00:29:40,695 --> 00:29:42,572
The angel said to me,
Why are you marveling?
573
00:29:42,572 --> 00:29:46,409
I will tell you the mystery of the woman
and of the beast with seven heads
574
00:29:46,409 --> 00:29:47,994
and ten horns that carries her.
575
00:29:47,994 --> 00:29:51,748
So this prostitute Babylon is sitting on
this seven headed beast.
576
00:29:51,748 --> 00:29:55,835
The beast that, you know, I always tell
people, don't ever make a, try
577
00:29:55,835 --> 00:29:59,589
to make a movie about Revelation because
it's imagery that works in literature.
578
00:29:59,756 --> 00:30:03,927
But as soon as you start depicting it
on a screen, it's really creepy, right?
579
00:30:04,385 --> 00:30:06,179
Very, very weird.
580
00:30:06,179 --> 00:30:09,432
The beast that you saw was and is not
and is about to rise
581
00:30:09,432 --> 00:30:11,684
from the bottomless pit
and go to destruction.
582
00:30:11,684 --> 00:30:13,686
The dwellers on earth,
whose names have not been written
583
00:30:13,686 --> 00:30:15,396
in the Book of Life
from the foundation of the world,
584
00:30:15,396 --> 00:30:18,399
will marvel to see the beast
because it was and is not in its to come.
585
00:30:18,566 --> 00:30:20,401
This calls for a mind with wisdom.
586
00:30:20,401 --> 00:30:22,946
Okay,
what are the seven heads of the beast?
587
00:30:22,946 --> 00:30:25,949
The seven heads are seven mountains
on which the woman sat.
588
00:30:26,074 --> 00:30:27,033
You're like, Ding!
589
00:30:29,035 --> 00:30:29,285
right.
590
00:30:29,285 --> 00:30:30,370
Dead giveaway.
591
00:30:30,370 --> 00:30:32,288
wow. Right. So.
592
00:30:32,288 --> 00:30:34,249
And now that was Revelation 17.
593
00:30:34,249 --> 00:30:35,959
What verse was that? Verse nine.
594
00:30:35,959 --> 00:30:39,462
So you have the prostitute named Babylon
sitting on the seven heads,
595
00:30:40,255 --> 00:30:42,090
which are seven mountains, Right.
596
00:30:42,090 --> 00:30:46,177
It's obviously
this whole image is speaking of Rome,
597
00:30:46,344 --> 00:30:51,099
but Rome again not in a way that's
limited to just the historical Rome.
598
00:30:51,641 --> 00:30:54,936
I think Rome is representative
of the forces,
599
00:30:54,936 --> 00:30:57,939
the powers that stand against Jesus
and his people.
600
00:30:58,648 --> 00:31:03,152
And then it says the seven heads are also
seven kings, five of which have fallen.
601
00:31:03,152 --> 00:31:05,697
One is, the other has not yet come.
602
00:31:05,697 --> 00:31:08,700
So they also represent the
603
00:31:08,825 --> 00:31:11,703
kings, the emperors of Rome,
a certain sequence of them.
604
00:31:11,703 --> 00:31:12,495
Right.
605
00:31:12,495 --> 00:31:15,123
So, I mean, this is the same thing, that’s
the same thing that we have
606
00:31:15,123 --> 00:31:16,374
in this text, right?
607
00:31:16,374 --> 00:31:17,333
Yeah.
608
00:31:17,333 --> 00:31:19,127
I'm really seeing how the genre.
609
00:31:19,127 --> 00:31:20,962
Yeah, is a big deal here.
610
00:31:20,962 --> 00:31:22,839
I have one more example. Yes please.
611
00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:26,634
And this is about how stars, you know,
you've heard a lot of weird,
612
00:31:26,676 --> 00:31:30,763
you hear a lot of weird stuff
from the last 50 years of people
613
00:31:31,014 --> 00:31:34,809
reading revelation
where stars falling from the sky.
614
00:31:35,184 --> 00:31:38,771
It's all about, it’s almost pictured
615
00:31:38,771 --> 00:31:42,400
as a literal, like astronomical stars
616
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,862
like crashing down,
which of course doesn't work, right?
617
00:31:45,862 --> 00:31:47,322
You can't have a third of the stars.
618
00:31:47,322 --> 00:31:49,365
Like each star is bigger than the earth,
and it just doesn't work.
619
00:31:50,408 --> 00:31:51,993
But that's
620
00:31:51,993 --> 00:31:53,620
just not what Revelation is talking about.
621
00:31:53,620 --> 00:31:56,998
So here again, in Sibylline Oracles
622
00:31:56,998 --> 00:31:57,624
five...
623
00:32:20,188 --> 00:32:21,189
So it keeps going about these
624
00:32:21,189 --> 00:32:22,941
constellations and stuff fighting...
625
00:32:38,289 --> 00:32:39,832
So this pictures
626
00:32:39,832 --> 00:32:42,335
the cosmic, that the stars
627
00:32:42,335 --> 00:32:45,338
and such, not as balls of gas,
628
00:32:45,672 --> 00:32:48,591
but as sort of heavenly beings
kind of angels, right?
629
00:32:48,591 --> 00:32:50,259
That fight in heaven, right?
630
00:32:50,259 --> 00:32:53,096
There's war in heaven
631
00:32:53,096 --> 00:32:56,099
and then heaven casts
632
00:32:56,557 --> 00:32:58,601
these fighting stars angels
633
00:32:58,601 --> 00:33:01,688
to the earth, right. Is like,
well I've that
634
00:33:01,813 --> 00:33:04,983
I heard I know
I've heard that right from Revelation.
635
00:33:05,900 --> 00:33:07,485
Yes. Okay.
636
00:33:07,485 --> 00:33:13,074
So in Revelation,
and there's other examples of this that I,
637
00:33:13,157 --> 00:33:18,997
that unfortunately from other texts
that we can't go through now.
638
00:33:19,372 --> 00:33:22,375
But in Revelation we have.
639
00:33:22,959 --> 00:33:24,544
We have this text.
640
00:33:24,544 --> 00:33:27,547
So actually we should have known this
from Revelation chapter one,
641
00:33:28,006 --> 00:33:30,800
because Revelation one, verse 20,
642
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,012
there is the seven stars
643
00:33:34,012 --> 00:33:37,015
and the seven Golden lamp
stands right at the beginning of the book.
644
00:33:37,140 --> 00:33:39,017
And it actually says in Revelation
one verse 20.
645
00:33:39,017 --> 00:33:41,853
As for the mystery of the seven stars
that you saw in My Right hand
646
00:33:41,853 --> 00:33:42,770
and the seven golden lamp
647
00:33:42,770 --> 00:33:45,732
stands, the seven stars
are the angels of the seven churches,
648
00:33:45,940 --> 00:33:47,567
and the seven lamp
stands are the seven churches.
649
00:33:47,567 --> 00:33:50,278
So it makes it explicit
that stars are angels.
650
00:33:50,278 --> 00:33:54,699
But then Revelation nine, the fifth angel
651
00:33:54,699 --> 00:33:57,827
blew his trumpet and I saw a star fallen
from heaven to earth.
652
00:33:57,827 --> 00:34:00,663
And he was given the key to the shaft
of the bottomless pit. Right?
653
00:34:00,663 --> 00:34:05,585
The star falling is not a star
as we think of stars.
654
00:34:05,585 --> 00:34:07,837
But it is an angel, right?
655
00:34:07,837 --> 00:34:12,633
Just like these fighters in this text
or in Revelation 12, The Beast, his tail
656
00:34:12,633 --> 00:34:15,636
sweeps down a third of the stars of heaven
and casts them to the earth.
657
00:34:18,014 --> 00:34:20,391
And in Revelation six,
658
00:34:20,391 --> 00:34:24,145
we have stars and the sun kind of
659
00:34:24,145 --> 00:34:29,067
crashing down to earth and the sky
sort of vanishing just like in this text.
660
00:34:29,067 --> 00:34:31,944
So stars represent,
and there are other texts,
661
00:34:31,944 --> 00:34:34,655
not Sibylline oracles that talk about this
a lot more, too.
662
00:34:34,655 --> 00:34:36,574
But stars are representative of angels.
663
00:34:36,574 --> 00:34:41,245
So when we see stars falling from the Sky,
like the dragon's tail
664
00:34:41,245 --> 00:34:44,248
sweeping down stars that follow him,
this is speaking of
665
00:34:45,124 --> 00:34:48,961
cosmic powers, evil powers
or good powers in various cases.
666
00:34:49,754 --> 00:34:53,966
So again, another example
of how there's so much overlap.
667
00:34:55,009 --> 00:34:56,719
Yeah.
668
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,305
Whoa. Okay. So.
669
00:34:59,305 --> 00:35:01,224
So to
670
00:35:01,224 --> 00:35:04,227
back it out on the genre question
a little bit,
671
00:35:04,352 --> 00:35:08,022
so which again, seems so foundational
to all of this,
672
00:35:09,357 --> 00:35:11,484
I have always heard
673
00:35:11,484 --> 00:35:14,612
a very literalist
interpretation of revelation,
674
00:35:15,029 --> 00:35:18,282
for lack of a better term, because I think
it will make more sense to the audience.
675
00:35:18,282 --> 00:35:21,661
But basically what Tim LaHaye outlines
in the whole Left Behind series, which are
676
00:35:22,954 --> 00:35:25,873
gargantuanly popular
if that's the right way phrasing it.
677
00:35:25,873 --> 00:35:28,876
I mean, just absolutely
massive runaway bestsellers.
678
00:35:29,168 --> 00:35:32,922
And then he kind of kicked off
a whole genre, really.
679
00:35:33,214 --> 00:35:37,802
It's back to genres, of pop culture
in Christian fiction
680
00:35:38,261 --> 00:35:42,431
around all its end times stuff
in the tribulation and the rapture in the
681
00:35:42,431 --> 00:35:44,392
whatever you want it
just about the whole works.
682
00:35:44,392 --> 00:35:47,812
So that would have been
what was that like mid nineties?
683
00:35:48,020 --> 00:35:50,148
And then it's still very alive
and well today.
684
00:35:50,148 --> 00:35:53,609
And that was been,
that would have been what I was used
685
00:35:53,609 --> 00:35:56,612
to hearing quite a lot in different places
I've been
686
00:35:56,612 --> 00:36:01,200
and it seems like that's very common
throughout, throughout just pop culture,
687
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,203
but also of course the Anabaptist world
is not immune from it.
688
00:36:04,203 --> 00:36:07,123
You know, it feels like there's
this fixation with following the news
689
00:36:07,123 --> 00:36:08,666
and is it happening? Is it happening?
690
00:36:08,666 --> 00:36:10,334
It's the end of the world,
you know, all that stuff.
691
00:36:10,334 --> 00:36:14,714
I would love to hear you respond to that
692
00:36:14,714 --> 00:36:17,216
because I got kind of disillusioned
with the whole thing.
693
00:36:17,216 --> 00:36:19,802
It felt so shallow
or like it didn't feel like it fit.
694
00:36:19,802 --> 00:36:22,722
And I actually just simply stopped
reading Revelation as a result,
695
00:36:22,722 --> 00:36:26,017
which is now, now that I think about it,
I mean, that's kind of sad, you know?
696
00:36:26,017 --> 00:36:27,185
It’s very sad.
697
00:36:27,185 --> 00:36:30,938
No, I think that that's happened
to a lot of people in our generation.
698
00:36:30,938 --> 00:36:33,441
I mean, I went through a phase like that,
too, because you get so like,
699
00:36:35,234 --> 00:36:36,694
you just get so
700
00:36:36,694 --> 00:36:39,697
like, I
don't know, a bad taste in your mouth from
701
00:36:40,698 --> 00:36:42,700
kind of all the sort of
702
00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:45,703
read the newspapers and try to
703
00:36:45,828 --> 00:36:46,996
figure out what all the stuff is.
704
00:36:46,996 --> 00:36:49,999
And they've been doing it for like 30
something years, you know, And then it's
705
00:36:49,999 --> 00:36:52,293
okay, you know, and then in time they're
like, well, that wasn't quite right.
706
00:36:52,293 --> 00:36:53,294
And then.
707
00:36:53,294 --> 00:36:55,630
debate all these crazy terms that things
whatever.
708
00:36:55,630 --> 00:36:57,256
So you just ignore it.
709
00:36:57,256 --> 00:36:59,675
But what I'm really passionate about,
710
00:36:59,675 --> 00:37:02,220
saying
no revelation needs to be rehabilitated.
711
00:37:02,220 --> 00:37:05,556
Rehabilitated. It has so much to say.
712
00:37:05,556 --> 00:37:08,893
And this is why we spent so much time
talking about genre, was that
713
00:37:09,977 --> 00:37:11,896
as soon as we realized, no, no,
714
00:37:11,896 --> 00:37:15,191
this is not as,
it is a weird text, but it's weird
715
00:37:15,191 --> 00:37:18,319
for completely different reasons
then maybe some of us grew up thinking
716
00:37:18,319 --> 00:37:18,945
it was weird for.
717
00:37:18,945 --> 00:37:23,282
It's not weird because it's talking about,
you know, tanks and nuclear warfare.
718
00:37:23,282 --> 00:37:27,495
It's weird
because it was written in this ancient,
719
00:37:27,703 --> 00:37:30,081
ancient genre,
but that is good news for us
720
00:37:30,081 --> 00:37:35,962
because that means that what we need and,
what it does for us, it's not a code,
721
00:37:36,170 --> 00:37:39,257
but it's a pair of glasses that we're
supposed to view our lives in the world.
722
00:37:39,257 --> 00:37:41,509
John wrote it.
723
00:37:41,509 --> 00:37:44,762
John wrote it
to people in the first century A.D.,
724
00:37:45,513 --> 00:37:49,767
expecting them to understand it
and to order their lives accordingly.
725
00:37:49,976 --> 00:37:52,395
And that's the goal of apocalyptic.
It's not supposed to be.
726
00:37:52,395 --> 00:37:56,274
It's not some Nostradamus style
sort of secret code into the future.
727
00:37:56,649 --> 00:38:00,278
It speaks of how God will climatically
be victorious in the future.
728
00:38:01,696 --> 00:38:02,530
But it's meant as
729
00:38:02,530 --> 00:38:05,658
John himself says,
the point of this is to overcome.
730
00:38:05,741 --> 00:38:09,370
Like he says, it's in all of the letters
to the churches, to the one who overcomes.
731
00:38:10,162 --> 00:38:12,873
And then when he says that he he usually
732
00:38:12,873 --> 00:38:16,043
pairs it with some other piece of imagery
that shows up in the rest of the book.
733
00:38:16,043 --> 00:38:18,045
Right. I'll make him a pillar
in the Temple of God.
734
00:38:18,045 --> 00:38:22,883
I will stamp on his forehead
the name, you know, that sort of thing.
735
00:38:22,883 --> 00:38:25,553
So he will not be part of the judgment,
things like that.
736
00:38:25,553 --> 00:38:28,222
So these embattled churches,
737
00:38:28,222 --> 00:38:29,223
these churches who are faced...
738
00:38:29,223 --> 00:38:34,687
with I think there are two dangers
in Revelation that John wants us to avoid.
739
00:38:35,104 --> 00:38:41,444
And that is the fear of persecution
that the beast kind of represents.
740
00:38:42,528 --> 00:38:42,903
Right.
741
00:38:42,903 --> 00:38:47,575
That's the scary threat of
persecution of various levels.
742
00:38:47,950 --> 00:38:49,952
And then the allure of the prostitute.
743
00:38:49,952 --> 00:38:50,202
Right.
744
00:38:50,202 --> 00:38:55,249
And both of those are one
and the same, right.
745
00:38:55,249 --> 00:38:57,126
The prostitute sits on the beast.
746
00:38:57,126 --> 00:39:00,087
Right. It's
they're both Rome but two aspects, right?
747
00:39:00,087 --> 00:39:02,256
One is
748
00:39:02,256 --> 00:39:05,176
the way that the political forces
or whatever
749
00:39:05,176 --> 00:39:08,179
can come against Christians and
750
00:39:08,971 --> 00:39:12,308
kill them persecute them,
take away their businesses, whatever
751
00:39:13,434 --> 00:39:16,729
the other is the way that economic wealth,
752
00:39:17,188 --> 00:39:20,691
the allure of social approval,
753
00:39:21,942 --> 00:39:25,071
things like that can kind of allure us
754
00:39:25,071 --> 00:39:29,116
to get into bed in a sense
with the prostitute.
755
00:39:29,158 --> 00:39:30,076
Right.
756
00:39:30,076 --> 00:39:34,622
And those are the two dangers
that revelation is warning us
757
00:39:35,122 --> 00:39:38,709
that John is saying you need to be people
who conquer,
758
00:39:39,168 --> 00:39:42,213
who stay faithful to the true...
759
00:39:42,213 --> 00:39:45,341
wait for the, you know, as the true
bride is waiting for the you know,
760
00:39:45,716 --> 00:39:48,719
the Marriage supper of the lambs
to stay away from the allure of the world,
761
00:39:49,053 --> 00:39:51,764
which is nothing
other than the lust of the flesh,
762
00:39:51,764 --> 00:39:53,808
the lust of the eyes
and the pride of life.
763
00:39:53,808 --> 00:39:57,311
And don't be terrorized
by the threat of persecution.
764
00:39:57,311 --> 00:39:58,896
Don't let that cause you to
765
00:40:00,106 --> 00:40:02,149
stop following Jesus.
766
00:40:02,149 --> 00:40:05,444
And so in this all this imagery,
767
00:40:05,444 --> 00:40:09,907
that revelation is using is meant to,
that's what it's meant to get us to do.
768
00:40:10,116 --> 00:40:10,699
Right.
769
00:40:10,699 --> 00:40:14,412
And I think a lot of the looking
at newspapers and trying to figure out
770
00:40:14,412 --> 00:40:15,579
like what piece of technology...
771
00:40:15,579 --> 00:40:18,582
that's actually a distraction from,
772
00:40:18,666 --> 00:40:21,669
and it actually can keep us from
773
00:40:22,753 --> 00:40:27,133
evaluating our hearts
against what this imagery is telling us.
774
00:40:27,341 --> 00:40:28,134
Right.
775
00:40:28,134 --> 00:40:31,137
It can almost result in.
776
00:40:31,137 --> 00:40:32,638
Yeah.
777
00:40:32,638 --> 00:40:35,474
Like you're saying a distraction
and then totally missed the point
778
00:40:35,474 --> 00:40:38,394
and almost let ourselves off the hook
of what this is actually telling us.
779
00:40:38,394 --> 00:40:39,728
absolutely It can be a copout.
780
00:40:39,728 --> 00:40:42,731
Because it’s like,
well as long as you know,
781
00:40:43,190 --> 00:40:45,067
it puts the beast, it turns the beast
782
00:40:45,067 --> 00:40:48,112
into sort of Russia
or something like that.
783
00:40:48,195 --> 00:40:48,446
Right.
784
00:40:48,446 --> 00:40:49,989
Which is, it's something we,
785
00:40:49,989 --> 00:40:50,865
I think we've all heard,
786
00:40:50,865 --> 00:40:53,951
you know, a bunch of times
and you know, or certain events that
787
00:40:53,951 --> 00:40:56,203
well that's, that's going to happen
at some point in the future.
788
00:40:56,203 --> 00:40:57,955
So then that tends to,
789
00:40:57,955 --> 00:41:00,541
I think you'd mentioned this last night
as well when we were chatting about this,
790
00:41:00,541 --> 00:41:04,420
but it tends to turn revelation
into this future thing
791
00:41:04,420 --> 00:41:07,506
that doesn't really apply
like right here and now, because,
792
00:41:07,506 --> 00:41:09,258
oh well, it’s
talking about something in the future.
793
00:41:09,258 --> 00:41:13,387
And so maybe that's some of the fixation
with so many people trying to figure out,
794
00:41:13,387 --> 00:41:14,555
what's happening in our lifetime,
795
00:41:14,555 --> 00:41:17,266
which we've been hearing that
for 60 years or whatever,
796
00:41:17,266 --> 00:41:20,436
and it hasn't happened
yet, And Revelation speaks.
797
00:41:20,436 --> 00:41:21,645
And this is way apocalyptic works.
798
00:41:21,645 --> 00:41:24,690
It speaks of the present
and the future kind of together.
799
00:41:25,274 --> 00:41:26,525
So Revelation is speaking.
800
00:41:26,525 --> 00:41:32,448
I think all this stuff about tribulation,
about the beast, about the prostitute,
801
00:41:32,907 --> 00:41:37,119
this is all stuff that's happening in
John's day and continuing to happen now.
802
00:41:37,578 --> 00:41:40,873
And I think Revelation
does have a climax in the future.
803
00:41:41,332 --> 00:41:44,793
When Jesus returns, judges his enemies,
sets out, you know, brings about
804
00:41:44,793 --> 00:41:45,586
the new heavens, new Earth.
805
00:41:46,587 --> 00:41:47,880
And so they're sure.
806
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,382
I'm not saying there's
no future implications.
807
00:41:50,382 --> 00:41:54,261
I'm not saying that there will not be
another iteration of the beast
808
00:41:54,261 --> 00:41:56,555
and the prostitute
and whatever in the future.
809
00:41:56,555 --> 00:41:58,891
But it's going to be,
it'll be precisely that.
810
00:41:58,891 --> 00:42:00,392
It'll be the last in a series.
811
00:42:00,392 --> 00:42:02,061
It won't be something
categorically different
812
00:42:02,061 --> 00:42:03,562
from what we're experiencing now.
813
00:42:03,562 --> 00:42:06,565
And John himself says this outside
of revelation, where he says
814
00:42:07,066 --> 00:42:09,818
Many Antichrists
have already come into the world.
815
00:42:09,818 --> 00:42:10,152
Right?
816
00:42:10,152 --> 00:42:14,114
And so whatever the final iteration
is, it's just a final iteration
817
00:42:14,114 --> 00:42:15,699
in the pattern.
818
00:42:15,699 --> 00:42:17,785
That's interesting because,
819
00:42:17,785 --> 00:42:18,911
when you talk about the Antichrist,
820
00:42:18,911 --> 00:42:22,456
I mean, so many people too, entering
into a categorically different event,
821
00:42:22,706 --> 00:42:25,125
you know, like this is going to be like
a really bad person
822
00:42:25,125 --> 00:42:27,253
like this going to be completely different
than before, you know?
823
00:42:27,253 --> 00:42:29,838
And so then there's always
yeah. John's thinking of
824
00:42:31,090 --> 00:42:32,299
things like
825
00:42:32,299 --> 00:42:35,261
in some cases
maybe even false teachers in the church
826
00:42:35,261 --> 00:42:38,264
and in other cases he's
thinking of Emperor Nero.
827
00:42:38,681 --> 00:42:40,975
Right. So he's,
828
00:42:40,975 --> 00:42:42,434
it's an anti messiah.
829
00:42:42,434 --> 00:42:45,437
It's any powerful figure
or influential figure
830
00:42:45,938 --> 00:42:48,941
that opposes the reign of Jesus.
831
00:42:49,441 --> 00:42:53,445
So So again, I'm kind of anticipating
some of the comments we'll get
832
00:42:53,445 --> 00:42:54,196
where people will be like,
833
00:42:54,196 --> 00:42:57,366
yeah, but you’re not taking the Bible
literally for what it's saying.
834
00:42:57,658 --> 00:42:59,118
This is, you know,
835
00:42:59,118 --> 00:43:02,621
and again, you kind of touched on this
with the genre question, but people
836
00:43:02,621 --> 00:43:04,873
kind of get bent out of shape
about that and like, well,
837
00:43:04,873 --> 00:43:07,001
but if you can just start
reading the Bible symbolically, then
838
00:43:07,001 --> 00:43:11,088
so many things go out the window, like
how do you how do you respond to that?
839
00:43:11,088 --> 00:43:15,259
Again, it's about, it’s
a question of reading the way
840
00:43:15,259 --> 00:43:18,971
John and then God intends us to read,
not about literalness or otherwise.
841
00:43:19,013 --> 00:43:20,723
That's just the wrong question to ask.
842
00:43:20,723 --> 00:43:24,685
But I'll also say that the people
who read Revelation
843
00:43:24,685 --> 00:43:28,397
sort of this more dispensation
way are being
844
00:43:29,231 --> 00:43:31,483
extremely symbolic
in their reading as well.
845
00:43:32,651 --> 00:43:34,278
That's a good point.
846
00:43:34,278 --> 00:43:35,446
Yeah, that's a really good point.
847
00:43:35,446 --> 00:43:39,783
There are no tanks or
848
00:43:39,783 --> 00:43:43,037
nuclear warfare or modern technology
in the Book of Revelation period.
849
00:43:43,621 --> 00:43:44,955
It's not there.
850
00:43:44,955 --> 00:43:48,500
So if you say that things represent
that you're just using,
851
00:43:48,709 --> 00:43:50,127
you're just saying it's symbolic.
852
00:43:50,127 --> 00:43:52,338
It's more a question of
what is it symbolizing
853
00:43:52,338 --> 00:43:55,466
and some people are choosing to read it
into a present day
854
00:43:55,716 --> 00:43:58,719
environment and you're suggesting that
that's not really the case?
855
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:00,179
No, it's not Right.
856
00:44:00,179 --> 00:44:02,014
Yeah. So you can't, nobody reads this.
857
00:44:02,014 --> 00:44:03,390
You can't read it literally.
858
00:44:03,390 --> 00:44:04,808
It's clearly full of symbolism.
859
00:44:04,808 --> 00:44:08,562
And everybody,
no matter how you slice it...
860
00:44:08,854 --> 00:44:10,314
people who say, the mark of the beast.
861
00:44:10,314 --> 00:44:12,191
Maybe it's
this latest piece of technology.
862
00:44:12,191 --> 00:44:14,401
There's nothing literal about that
reading Like, way nothing literal.
863
00:44:14,401 --> 00:44:15,069
There's nothing literal about that
reading Like, way nothing literal.
864
00:44:15,069 --> 00:44:18,864
Okay, okay, I feel like we have to I mean,
you know, Mark of the Beast, right?
865
00:44:18,864 --> 00:44:20,366
Like we have to talk about that
briefly, right?
866
00:44:20,366 --> 00:44:21,825
Yeah, because I think that could be,
867
00:44:21,825 --> 00:44:26,038
let's use that as a case study
of a particular passage in Revelation.
868
00:44:26,038 --> 00:44:28,749
And for a little bit of context.
869
00:44:28,749 --> 00:44:33,379
And I think this is slowly
going out of favor, I guess.
870
00:44:33,587 --> 00:44:36,548
But this whole fixation
with it's a microchip
871
00:44:36,590 --> 00:44:39,426
or it's a
whatever, it's a chip in your credit card.
872
00:44:39,426 --> 00:44:42,262
It's,
you know, all the, it's a vaccine. Yes.
873
00:44:42,262 --> 00:44:45,683
Whatever gets poked into you,
it's like that's what it is, you know,
874
00:44:45,683 --> 00:44:47,935
And that again, I've heard this
875
00:44:47,935 --> 00:44:51,772
in so many different forms
for years and years and years of my life
876
00:44:52,106 --> 00:44:53,816
and to the point where I was just like,
you know what?
877
00:44:53,816 --> 00:44:57,861
I don't even care anymore because it's
just like this is just I don't know.
878
00:44:57,861 --> 00:44:58,362
I don't know.
879
00:44:58,362 --> 00:45:01,240
It's just it's so confusing And people
are telling me all these different things,
880
00:45:01,240 --> 00:45:04,201
but all of the interpretations
that I was hearing were
881
00:45:04,201 --> 00:45:07,246
it will be some kind of a literal thing
at the end of time
882
00:45:07,538 --> 00:45:10,374
where Christians will have to choose,
you know, will they get this mark
883
00:45:10,374 --> 00:45:12,042
or this microchip, this whatever?
884
00:45:13,877 --> 00:45:15,546
I'd love to hear your opinion on this.
885
00:45:15,546 --> 00:45:17,840
So this is important because it is a.
886
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,426
and to our to a younger crowd.
887
00:45:20,426 --> 00:45:21,802
I think it's important to say
888
00:45:21,802 --> 00:45:24,596
the mark of the beast is actually
a really important thing to think about.
889
00:45:24,596 --> 00:45:27,099
It is very high stakes, Right.
890
00:45:27,099 --> 00:45:28,475
You don't.
891
00:45:28,475 --> 00:45:31,645
You don't want to get
the mark of the beast like it's bad news.
892
00:45:32,563 --> 00:45:35,691
So to the older or to the...
893
00:45:36,191 --> 00:45:37,276
Maybe I shouldn’t divide it that way.
894
00:45:37,276 --> 00:45:40,279
But with
895
00:45:40,404 --> 00:45:43,449
to the dispensational style
reading of the text,
896
00:45:43,449 --> 00:45:47,119
it's hugely important,
but it's not important
897
00:45:48,620 --> 00:45:50,372
in the way that it was thought
898
00:45:50,372 --> 00:45:53,417
to be with, am I going to get tripped up
by a chip or something?
899
00:45:53,709 --> 00:45:54,960
But it is very high stakes.
900
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:56,962
And I think, again, I think that
901
00:45:56,962 --> 00:46:00,841
speculation on pieces of technology
actually can be a cop out
902
00:46:00,841 --> 00:46:04,720
and can cause us to stop wondering whether
or not we have been marked by the Beast.
903
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:07,097
So let's look at it really quick. Yeah.
904
00:46:07,097 --> 00:46:08,265
So what's fascinating is that
905
00:46:08,265 --> 00:46:11,560
the mark of the beast
has come side by side with another mark.
906
00:46:12,269 --> 00:46:16,774
So it's in Revelation 13 is where we have
907
00:46:17,357 --> 00:46:19,985
sort of verses 11 to 18
908
00:46:21,153 --> 00:46:22,571
the mark of the beast.
909
00:46:22,571 --> 00:46:27,034
So this second beast causes
all both small and great
910
00:46:27,659 --> 00:46:30,037
to be marked on the right hand
or the forehead
911
00:46:30,037 --> 00:46:32,498
so that no one can buy or sell
unless he has the mark.
912
00:46:32,498 --> 00:46:33,332
What is the mark?
913
00:46:33,332 --> 00:46:36,335
Well, he says it's the name of the beast
914
00:46:37,836 --> 00:46:40,839
or the number of its name.
915
00:46:41,048 --> 00:46:44,009
Now, what do you think when you think
of the name or the number of its name?
916
00:46:44,218 --> 00:46:45,761
let's say you were John's first readers.
917
00:46:45,761 --> 00:46:46,678
Yeah. yeah.
918
00:46:46,678 --> 00:46:48,388
Well in that case, it’d be like start
finding...
919
00:46:48,388 --> 00:46:49,973
Gematria!
920
00:46:49,973 --> 00:46:51,058
Yeah, yeah.
921
00:46:51,058 --> 00:46:52,851
I was trying to remember the term.
922
00:46:52,851 --> 00:46:53,727
It says it’s the name of the beast.
923
00:46:53,727 --> 00:46:54,603
Or the number.
924
00:46:54,603 --> 00:46:57,481
Right? It's something's name
and then it's.
925
00:46:57,481 --> 00:46:59,483
And then John says, This calls for wisdom.
926
00:46:59,483 --> 00:47:02,486
Let the one who has understanding
calculate the number of the beast for it's
927
00:47:03,362 --> 00:47:06,240
a person's number and his number is 666.
928
00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:09,243
But then the very next thing
that John does,
929
00:47:09,535 --> 00:47:12,913
chapter 14, verse one,
then I looked and behold on Mount Zion
930
00:47:12,913 --> 00:47:17,751
stood the lamb, and with him, 144,000,
representing the fullness of God's people
931
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,046
who had his name and his father's name
written on their foreheads.
932
00:47:22,631 --> 00:47:23,924
And I heard a voice from heaven,
933
00:47:23,924 --> 00:47:27,386
like the voice of of many waters
sounding and whatever.
934
00:47:27,970 --> 00:47:30,639
And then verse nine, another,
an angel shows up saying,
935
00:47:30,639 --> 00:47:32,391
If anyone worships the beast and its image
936
00:47:32,391 --> 00:47:35,978
and receives a mark on his forehead
or his hand, he will receive wrath.
937
00:47:35,978 --> 00:47:41,441
So it's the mark of,
the name of the beast is side
938
00:47:41,441 --> 00:47:46,238
by side with the mark of the name of God
on your forehead.
939
00:47:46,780 --> 00:47:47,364
Right.
940
00:47:47,364 --> 00:47:50,617
Nobody ever interprets
that as though it were a piece of,
941
00:47:51,493 --> 00:47:54,204
godly technology or something, right?
942
00:47:54,204 --> 00:47:56,707
yeah. Okay. Okay. I see what you're doing.
943
00:47:56,707 --> 00:47:57,958
You cannot separate them. right?
944
00:47:57,958 --> 00:48:01,920
You cannot ever talk about the mark of the
beast as though it's a standalone thing.
945
00:48:02,504 --> 00:48:03,130
It's not.
946
00:48:03,130 --> 00:48:06,592
Revelation is full of these dichotomies.
947
00:48:06,842 --> 00:48:07,301
Right.
948
00:48:07,301 --> 00:48:11,930
There's the lamb, there's the beast,
there's the prostitute and the bride.
949
00:48:12,306 --> 00:48:16,184
There's,
you know, there's judgment, new creation.
950
00:48:16,184 --> 00:48:18,520
There's the seven hills of Rome
and there's Mt.
951
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:20,981
Zion. Right? It's all of that.
952
00:48:20,981 --> 00:48:22,566
And there's a stamp
953
00:48:23,775 --> 00:48:24,484
on humans
954
00:48:24,484 --> 00:48:27,487
of the name of the beast
or the name of the Lamb.
955
00:48:27,821 --> 00:48:31,283
Like, would it be appropriate
to think of this almost like a branding,
956
00:48:31,575 --> 00:48:34,995
like, like
old style, like burned into cattle brand.
957
00:48:34,995 --> 00:48:36,663
Or a slave brand.
958
00:48:36,663 --> 00:48:36,914
Yeah.
959
00:48:36,914 --> 00:48:38,916
Which would happen in the ancient world.
960
00:48:38,916 --> 00:48:43,253
And he's basically putting, he's
contrasting these two off of each other.
961
00:48:43,253 --> 00:48:43,545
Okay.
962
00:48:43,545 --> 00:48:48,342
Well, now, So, if you're stamped
with the name of Jesus or God,
963
00:48:49,343 --> 00:48:54,097
this means, for one thing, that you
will be exempt from the final judgment.
964
00:48:54,431 --> 00:48:57,184
Right.
And this actually comes from Ezekiel.
965
00:48:57,184 --> 00:49:00,896
There's this mark of God that God's people
are stamped with to avoid judgment.
966
00:49:00,896 --> 00:49:02,272
So he’s pulling
that straight from Ezekiel.
967
00:49:02,272 --> 00:49:03,565
Do you know where that is in Ezekiel?
968
00:49:03,565 --> 00:49:06,151
Just if anybody wants to look that up
Ezekiel nine.
969
00:49:06,151 --> 00:49:07,986
Okay, I'm
going to want to read that afterwards.
970
00:49:07,986 --> 00:49:08,362
That's a great.
971
00:49:08,362 --> 00:49:10,989
I hadn't thought of that. That.
Okay. Okay.
972
00:49:10,989 --> 00:49:11,323
So what it means though, is that yes,
you're stamped.
973
00:49:11,323 --> 00:49:14,618
So what it means though, is that yes,
you're stamped.
974
00:49:14,910 --> 00:49:18,163
That means you belong to,
it means you belong to Jesus, Right?
975
00:49:18,163 --> 00:49:20,040
That's what it means. It's a branding.
976
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,126
It's saying I, belong to Jesus.
977
00:49:23,418 --> 00:49:24,795
I'm a Jesus person.
978
00:49:24,795 --> 00:49:26,838
I'm, I bear his name.
979
00:49:26,838 --> 00:49:26,922
I'm, I bear his name.
980
00:49:26,922 --> 00:49:30,133
So just like Israel was supposed to bear
God's name in the Old Testament
981
00:49:30,133 --> 00:49:33,762
or like the high
priest had on his forehead holy to Yahweh.
982
00:49:35,055 --> 00:49:36,932
All of God's people are those
983
00:49:36,932 --> 00:49:40,686
who are stamped
with allegiance to the lamb.
984
00:49:41,979 --> 00:49:44,022
Okay, So. So I'm really curious here.
985
00:49:44,022 --> 00:49:48,110
Why did John put a number with this beast
986
00:49:48,610 --> 00:49:51,363
mark, and say 666,
987
00:49:51,363 --> 00:49:56,326
not six, six, six, but 666? So
988
00:49:57,411 --> 00:50:00,664
that has tripped up people a lot,
especially, again, I'm
989
00:50:00,664 --> 00:50:04,167
thinking more here in America
in the last few decades.
990
00:50:04,167 --> 00:50:06,294
But so walk me through that.
991
00:50:06,294 --> 00:50:09,464
Most important thing to say
is whatever this is, is the antithesis
992
00:50:09,548 --> 00:50:12,551
of being sealed with God's name.
993
00:50:12,926 --> 00:50:17,806
Being somebody who says I belong,
my allegiance is not to the beast.
994
00:50:18,140 --> 00:50:19,558
My allegiance is to Jesus.
995
00:50:19,558 --> 00:50:22,185
And that might mean
I suffer a lot in this life,
996
00:50:22,185 --> 00:50:24,521
but it means I'm going to be saved
from final judgment.
997
00:50:24,521 --> 00:50:28,483
Means I live as somebody
who like a priest, who bears God's name.
998
00:50:28,692 --> 00:50:30,068
So this is the opposite.
999
00:50:30,068 --> 00:50:32,738
So this, one would think, implies
Speaker:
00:50:34,114 --> 00:50:37,117
being stamped by allegiance to
Speaker:
00:50:37,284 --> 00:50:39,369
the world, Right.
Speaker:
00:50:39,369 --> 00:50:42,372
As represented in the Beast.
Speaker:
00:50:42,789 --> 00:50:45,375
And specifically, John doesn't
Speaker:
00:50:45,375 --> 00:50:49,087
mention any specific name,
but he mentions this number.
Speaker:
00:50:49,588 --> 00:50:53,925
And the common,
the most common interpretation of this
Speaker:
00:50:53,925 --> 00:50:58,513
is that it represents,
it stands for the words Nero Caesar.
Speaker:
00:50:59,890 --> 00:51:01,933
Okay,
Speaker:
00:51:01,933 --> 00:51:06,021
not all scholars think that,
but that's the majority take.
Speaker:
00:51:06,021 --> 00:51:10,233
So again, if you write out the name
Nero Caesar using Hebrew characters,
Speaker:
00:51:10,233 --> 00:51:15,697
it comes out to 666 right now. Why?
Speaker:
00:51:15,739 --> 00:51:16,823
Why does he say this?
Speaker:
00:51:16,823 --> 00:51:19,117
Why doesn't he just say Nero?
Speaker:
00:51:19,117 --> 00:51:21,286
Yeah. Well, I think a couple of reasons.
Speaker:
00:51:21,286 --> 00:51:23,080
One, again,
this is how this type of literature
Speaker:
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,083
tends to work,
think of the Sibylline oracles,
Speaker:
00:51:26,083 --> 00:51:29,127
where for some reason,
even though it's describing
Speaker:
00:51:29,127 --> 00:51:32,714
a whole list of emperors, Roman emperors
that were known to the people,
Speaker:
00:51:33,006 --> 00:51:36,176
it does it in a more cryptic fashion
rather than just come out and say it.
Speaker:
00:51:36,384 --> 00:51:42,432
It seems to imbue more symbolic meaning,
a more theological significance, more
Speaker:
00:51:42,432 --> 00:51:43,475
a sense of
Speaker:
00:51:43,475 --> 00:51:48,105
this is kind of scary, but God knows
what's going on, type of thing, right?
Speaker:
00:51:48,563 --> 00:51:52,025
So I think that's one of the reasons,
this is an enemy figure.
Speaker:
00:51:52,025 --> 00:51:54,611
And so it's described more cryptically.
Speaker:
00:51:54,611 --> 00:51:56,113
But I think also it's that
Speaker:
00:51:57,155 --> 00:51:59,699
Nero himself is
Speaker:
00:51:59,699 --> 00:52:03,036
simply a stand in
for the head of the beast.
Speaker:
00:52:03,036 --> 00:52:03,703
Right.
Speaker:
00:52:03,703 --> 00:52:07,666
That this isn't supposed to be
just the historical Nero and that's it.
Speaker:
00:52:07,999 --> 00:52:10,669
Well that was my very next
question was like,
Speaker:
00:52:10,669 --> 00:52:13,880
well then that means this is locked
to this specific piece of history.
Speaker:
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,677
And is this because there's
so much going on about Rome?
Speaker:
00:52:18,677 --> 00:52:22,139
But Rome as an archetype against God’s
people say,
Speaker:
00:52:22,430 --> 00:52:26,351
and Nero is a great example
of that actually, like a really, really
Speaker:
00:52:26,351 --> 00:52:30,772
horrible person who persecuted Christians,
you know, like at an incredible level.
Speaker:
00:52:30,897 --> 00:52:31,439
Right.
Speaker:
00:52:31,439 --> 00:52:34,442
And he also,
Speaker:
00:52:34,693 --> 00:52:37,362
some of the imagery
that is spoken of here,
Speaker:
00:52:37,362 --> 00:52:40,407
Nero had these weird legends
associated with him.
Speaker:
00:52:40,448 --> 00:52:44,661
Like he died, but some people
claim that, no, he actually wasn't dead
Speaker:
00:52:44,661 --> 00:52:47,706
or maybe he was dead, but
he's going to come back someday, Right?
Speaker:
00:52:47,998 --> 00:52:50,834
So he's like a great stand in
for like the anti Messiah
Speaker:
00:52:50,834 --> 00:52:54,129
because a lot of similar stuff
that’s spoken of Jesus.
Speaker:
00:52:54,129 --> 00:52:57,132
Right.
He died. But will return or whatever.
Speaker:
00:52:57,132 --> 00:53:00,343
There's various legends
about Nero expectations
Speaker:
00:53:00,343 --> 00:53:03,013
around this time
that kind of like Elvis or something.
Speaker:
00:53:03,013 --> 00:53:05,473
Maybe he's not dead
or maybe he'll come back right.
Speaker:
00:53:05,473 --> 00:53:07,809
And so he's perfect
for this kind of thing, right?
Speaker:
00:53:07,809 --> 00:53:10,562
Again, as an archetype. Yeah.
Speaker:
00:53:10,562 --> 00:53:13,523
So because he was already gone
by the time Revelation was written,
Speaker:
00:53:13,523 --> 00:53:15,734
I was going to say
he would have been dead by then.
Speaker:
00:53:15,734 --> 00:53:18,695
So it’s not like the people were like,
oh good Nero's, this stands for Nero.
Speaker:
00:53:18,695 --> 00:53:19,196
Nero has gone.
Speaker:
00:53:19,196 --> 00:53:20,822
That means I don't have to worry
about getting marked by the beast.
Speaker:
00:53:20,822 --> 00:53:21,781
No, no, no.
Speaker:
00:53:21,781 --> 00:53:25,285
It's saying that the beast, Rome,
Speaker:
00:53:25,744 --> 00:53:29,414
as a stand in for God’s,
the power of Gods enemy, right?
Speaker:
00:53:29,414 --> 00:53:32,500
And its head, its
Speaker:
00:53:33,043 --> 00:53:35,587
human leader as symbolized by
Speaker:
00:53:36,671 --> 00:53:37,505
Nero.
Speaker:
00:53:37,505 --> 00:53:39,216
Right.
Speaker:
00:53:39,216 --> 00:53:41,551
That is the beast, Right.
Speaker:
00:53:41,551 --> 00:53:46,264
And then being marked by the beast
means to be branded
Speaker:
00:53:46,598 --> 00:53:50,352
with allegiance to that figure
or that pattern of figures.
Speaker:
00:53:51,102 --> 00:53:53,146
Right.
Speaker:
00:53:53,146 --> 00:53:57,275
And this, the reason this is so powerful
and important, I think, is that
Speaker:
00:53:58,485 --> 00:54:01,655
it's again, it speaks to,
just like the rest
Speaker:
00:54:01,655 --> 00:54:03,114
the New Testament, revelation
is not saying
Speaker:
00:54:03,114 --> 00:54:06,076
something different from the rest of New
Testament. It’s the same thing.
Speaker:
00:54:06,076 --> 00:54:07,535
This speaks to our heart,
That's the thing I hate most about
Speaker:
00:54:07,535 --> 00:54:09,079
This speaks to our heart,
That's the thing I hate most about
Speaker:
00:54:09,829 --> 00:54:12,624
wondering about the mark of the beast
being some piece of technology.
Speaker:
00:54:12,624 --> 00:54:16,336
Oops, I just got the wrong credit card
and now I'm going to hell or something.
Speaker:
00:54:17,629 --> 00:54:19,506
That has nothing to do with one's heart.
Speaker:
00:54:19,506 --> 00:54:22,509
But what John is talking about
is where is your allegiance?
Speaker:
00:54:22,801 --> 00:54:27,722
Are you living your life now
marked by this,
Speaker:
00:54:28,014 --> 00:54:32,435
by God's name on your head
or the world system, name on your head?
Speaker:
00:54:33,019 --> 00:54:37,774
And that's a really
convicting thing because it's
Speaker:
00:54:38,942 --> 00:54:41,945
those pressures from society.
Speaker:
00:54:41,987 --> 00:54:43,196
I can make more money.
Speaker:
00:54:43,196 --> 00:54:46,574
I can be successful if I give myself to
Speaker:
00:54:47,701 --> 00:54:50,203
the power and pleasure of the markets, or
Speaker:
00:54:50,203 --> 00:54:52,789
I can get my, sort of,
Speaker:
00:54:52,789 --> 00:54:56,543
my tribe's policies in place
if I give myself
Speaker:
00:54:56,543 --> 00:54:59,546
to a certain political party
as some of our people are doing.
Speaker:
00:55:00,213 --> 00:55:02,090
Well, that is so ironic
Speaker:
00:55:02,090 --> 00:55:05,093
because we were talking about that
last night where
Speaker:
00:55:05,302 --> 00:55:08,972
some of the political activism that we're
seeing within the Anabaptist world
Speaker:
00:55:08,972 --> 00:55:13,601
right now is coming from kind of this
conspiratorial style of reading,
Speaker:
00:55:13,935 --> 00:55:16,730
say, revelation, like, these are events
that are happening right now.
Speaker:
00:55:16,730 --> 00:55:19,316
And so we have to get involved in worldly
politics
Speaker:
00:55:19,316 --> 00:55:22,402
to help stop these horrible things
that are happening...
Speaker:
00:55:22,819 --> 00:55:23,236
whatever.
Speaker:
00:55:23,236 --> 00:55:26,031
I mean,
there's all kinds of ideas out there.
Speaker:
00:55:26,031 --> 00:55:31,077
What you're outlining here
is actually 180 difference of that.
Speaker:
00:55:31,703 --> 00:55:34,039
So it's like people
are actually reading this.
Speaker:
00:55:34,039 --> 00:55:35,874
In your opinion, the reading is so wrong.
Speaker:
00:55:35,874 --> 00:55:39,377
They're actually going totally the wrong
direction of what John is saying here.
Speaker:
00:55:39,627 --> 00:55:43,214
John is saying here what he says in
his letters, don't love the world.
Speaker:
00:55:44,049 --> 00:55:46,092
If anyone loves the world,
the love of the father is not in him.
Speaker:
00:55:46,092 --> 00:55:48,303
I think he could have easily,
just as easily said,
Speaker:
00:55:48,303 --> 00:55:52,265
if anyone loves the world,
you know, don't be stamped by the world.
Speaker:
00:55:52,390 --> 00:55:55,518
If anyone is stamped by the world,
the seal of the father is not on him.
Speaker:
00:55:56,019 --> 00:55:57,604
It's that right.
Speaker:
00:55:57,604 --> 00:56:00,607
But John is saying things like,
Speaker:
00:56:00,607 --> 00:56:05,070
Without the stamp of the beast,
you may be excluded from society.
Speaker:
00:56:05,236 --> 00:56:07,781
You might be excluded
from the marketplace.
Speaker:
00:56:07,781 --> 00:56:08,406
Right.
Speaker:
00:56:08,406 --> 00:56:11,326
And this takes different forms
in different times.
Speaker:
00:56:11,326 --> 00:56:14,454
But there were Christians a couple of
centuries after this who literally
Speaker:
00:56:15,163 --> 00:56:18,792
were commanded to burn
a little pinch of incense to Caesar.
Speaker:
00:56:19,167 --> 00:56:21,711
And then they would get
a little certificate and they'd be fine.
Speaker:
00:56:21,711 --> 00:56:22,170
Right.
Speaker:
00:56:22,170 --> 00:56:24,881
And if they didn't, if they refused
to do that, they'd be killed.
Speaker:
00:56:24,881 --> 00:56:25,423
Right.
Speaker:
00:56:25,423 --> 00:56:28,927
And for them, that is what it meant
to be stamped by the beast.
Speaker:
00:56:29,135 --> 00:56:32,055
Like, will I, just do this
tiny little thing
Speaker:
00:56:32,055 --> 00:56:35,016
that allows me to stay and buy and sell
and do all this stuff.
Speaker:
00:56:35,225 --> 00:56:37,560
But they read this text
and they're saying,
Speaker:
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:40,688
they would say,
no, like that would be, to be
Speaker:
00:56:41,106 --> 00:56:44,651
placing my allegiance to the beast
instead of the lamb.
Speaker:
00:56:45,026 --> 00:56:45,652
Right.
Speaker:
00:56:45,902 --> 00:56:49,656
And for us today, I think the pressures
maybe are more subtle.
Speaker:
00:56:50,323 --> 00:56:50,824
Right.
Speaker:
00:56:50,824 --> 00:56:56,204
And that's part of the power of revelation
is to imbue our everyday subtle
Speaker:
00:56:56,287 --> 00:57:00,708
sort of life with this cosmic imagery
that says what we think is just
Speaker:
00:57:01,626 --> 00:57:05,255
politics or the markets
or the pleasures of,
Speaker:
00:57:05,797 --> 00:57:08,466
or temptations
towards anything pornography,
Speaker:
00:57:08,466 --> 00:57:11,594
sexual immorality, whatever it is,
things are just like everyday things.
Speaker:
00:57:12,011 --> 00:57:12,762
But revelation
Speaker:
00:57:12,762 --> 00:57:15,849
with this powerful imagery says, No, no,
no, that's the beast and the prostitute.
Speaker:
00:57:16,724 --> 00:57:17,809
Where's your allegiance going to be?
Speaker:
00:57:17,809 --> 00:57:20,270
Whose mark
are you going to be stamped by? Because
Speaker:
00:57:21,229 --> 00:57:23,398
you know where the story's ending, right?
Speaker:
00:57:23,398 --> 00:57:26,151
With the judgment or a new creation
and whose name you're stamped
Speaker:
00:57:26,151 --> 00:57:29,154
with determines kind of where you end up?
Speaker:
00:57:29,195 --> 00:57:32,198
Yeah, that makes it very relevant.
Speaker:
00:57:32,699 --> 00:57:34,784
And so you're not taking.
Speaker:
00:57:34,784 --> 00:57:38,413
So I've actually heard different ones
where it's like, yeah, this is all future
Speaker:
00:57:38,413 --> 00:57:39,706
stuff, future technology, whatever.
Speaker:
00:57:39,706 --> 00:57:42,584
But then you also have other opinions
where it's like, this is all historical.
Speaker:
00:57:42,584 --> 00:57:45,670
He's only writing about this
era of history that's way back there.
Speaker:
00:57:45,670 --> 00:57:48,465
And it's not, you know, not for today,
I guess, or whatever.
Speaker:
00:57:48,465 --> 00:57:50,967
I haven't heard that one as much,
but I've heard some people
Speaker:
00:57:50,967 --> 00:57:51,843
kind of hint at that.
Speaker:
00:57:51,843 --> 00:57:53,845
And you're saying, whoa, neither of those.
Speaker:
00:57:53,845 --> 00:57:59,684
No, it's both Because this was written
to all of God's people, right?
Speaker:
00:57:59,684 --> 00:58:02,353
From the first Century
to the 21st to the 31st
Speaker:
00:58:02,353 --> 00:58:05,315
or however many centuries
until Jesus returns.
Speaker:
00:58:05,523 --> 00:58:07,650
Right. It's so that we conquer.
Speaker:
00:58:07,650 --> 00:58:10,028
And this book is written in this
Speaker:
00:58:10,028 --> 00:58:13,239
way, rooted in first century
Speaker:
00:58:13,740 --> 00:58:17,619
Roman imagery and even way more than that,
rooted in the Old Testament.
Speaker:
00:58:17,744 --> 00:58:18,661
Right.
Speaker:
00:58:18,661 --> 00:58:22,582
But speaking archetypally to the present
Speaker:
00:58:22,790 --> 00:58:26,669
and then speaking prophetically to
the future when Jesus returns.
Speaker:
00:58:27,420 --> 00:58:29,422
So let's pivot on that a little.
Speaker:
00:58:29,422 --> 00:58:32,592
You're saying it's
so steeped in the Old Testament imagery
Speaker:
00:58:32,967 --> 00:58:35,595
and then looking forward
to the return of Jesus?
Speaker:
00:58:35,595 --> 00:58:39,557
yeah, give us some examples there,
because I'm guessing some people
Speaker:
00:58:39,682 --> 00:58:42,393
listen to this, like, Whoa, okay,
this is interesting, but like, now what?
Speaker:
00:58:42,393 --> 00:58:45,146
Like, how do, how do I get into this text
and actually, like,
Speaker:
00:58:45,146 --> 00:58:47,023
what's some Old Testament stuff? What?
Speaker:
00:58:47,023 --> 00:58:47,440
I don't know.
Speaker:
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:51,611
I mean, that's a huge, huge question,
but give us maybe some examples of
Speaker:
00:58:51,861 --> 00:58:54,656
what are some Old Testament pieces
that will help us understand this.
Speaker:
00:58:54,656 --> 00:58:56,699
Okay. So I can give you.
Speaker:
00:58:56,699 --> 00:58:57,033
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:58:57,033 --> 00:59:01,788
What's fascinating about revelation
is that there are none or almost none,
Speaker:
00:59:02,163 --> 00:59:04,874
no direct quotations of the Old Testament.
Speaker:
00:59:04,874 --> 00:59:06,793
Which is surprising.
Speaker:
00:59:06,793 --> 00:59:10,672
But what it has instead
is just it's absolutely infused,
Speaker:
00:59:11,214 --> 00:59:13,341
infused by the symbolism
of the Old Testament.
Speaker:
00:59:13,341 --> 00:59:17,136
And it would I mean, it takes it would
take forever to kind of go through it. But
Speaker:
00:59:18,137 --> 00:59:19,889
I think, that's an encouraging thing.
Speaker:
00:59:19,889 --> 00:59:22,058
So like, some people might be like,
my goodness,
Speaker:
00:59:22,058 --> 00:59:24,852
revelation is in this alien genre
now what do I do?
Speaker:
00:59:24,852 --> 00:59:27,355
Actually, really
Speaker:
00:59:27,355 --> 00:59:31,150
all you need to do is kind of study
your Old Testament really well.
Speaker:
00:59:31,609 --> 00:59:34,612
So it doesn't
you don't necessarily have to have a,
Speaker:
00:59:35,154 --> 00:59:38,616
you know, deep knowledge
of Greek and Hebrew and things like that
Speaker:
00:59:38,950 --> 00:59:42,453
so much as you just you need to read
Isaiah, read Ezekiel, read Daniel,
Speaker:
00:59:42,453 --> 00:59:46,791
read Exodus and start recognizing
that John's picking up all this stuff.
Speaker:
00:59:46,833 --> 00:59:49,877
So it has you can understand it pretty
well if you have, if you just
Speaker:
00:59:50,336 --> 00:59:52,714
sort of change,
not everything about it. It's complicated.
Speaker:
00:59:52,714 --> 00:59:55,800
We can see a lot of it
if you come at it that way.
Speaker:
00:59:57,427 --> 00:59:58,344
I guess one
Speaker:
00:59:58,344 --> 01:00:01,347
thing I will,
I mean, it's going to take a while, but
Speaker:
01:00:02,432 --> 01:00:05,435
Revelation 21 and 22,
Speaker:
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:10,815
what we have is this amalgamation
of Garden of Eden imagery
Speaker:
01:00:11,316 --> 01:00:15,069
and temple imagery and the bride imagery.
Speaker:
01:00:15,570 --> 01:00:15,820
Right?
Speaker:
01:00:15,820 --> 01:00:18,865
All of those are themes
from the Old Testament, the bride, as
Speaker:
01:00:20,325 --> 01:00:21,576
the people of God, right?
Speaker:
01:00:21,576 --> 01:00:25,538
Because God and Israel get married
and then that's fulfilled in Messiah's
Speaker:
01:00:25,538 --> 01:00:30,501
marriage to his renewed people
the church and that's carried into here.
Speaker:
01:00:30,918 --> 01:00:34,714
We have the temple imagery
which is straight up,
Speaker:
01:00:34,839 --> 01:00:37,800
you know, from Exodus
but goes through Ezekiel because
Speaker:
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:42,055
Ezekiel:has this vision of a renewed, a new temple
Speaker:
01:00:42,722 --> 01:00:45,642
that has the river of life
flowing out from the middle of it
Speaker:
01:00:45,642 --> 01:00:49,062
and trees of life on the side
and God's presence flowing from it.
Speaker:
01:00:49,312 --> 01:00:52,482
And that's
what revelation is drawing a lot on here
Speaker:
01:00:52,482 --> 01:00:54,484
when he speaks
of the measurements of the city
Speaker:
01:00:54,484 --> 01:00:58,404
and he speaks of the river of life
flowing out of the middle of it and stuff,
Speaker:
01:00:58,446 --> 01:01:00,156
he’s picking up Ezekiel.
Speaker:
01:01:00,156 --> 01:01:03,451
But then things like when he describes
the new Jerusalem, new creation
Speaker:
01:01:03,451 --> 01:01:05,411
as a temple.
Speaker:
01:01:05,411 --> 01:01:08,206
So I'll just give one example here.
Speaker:
01:01:08,206 --> 01:01:10,708
He speaks of the city
Speaker:
01:01:10,708 --> 01:01:13,711
being a cube shape, right?
Speaker:
01:01:13,961 --> 01:01:16,881
And people kind of have drawn
weird pictures of that and stuff.
Speaker:
01:01:16,881 --> 01:01:19,258
But again,
this is just Old Testament imagery.
Speaker:
01:01:19,258 --> 01:01:20,593
There's only one other
Speaker:
01:01:22,178 --> 01:01:22,929
cube shaped
Speaker:
01:01:22,929 --> 01:01:25,973
structure in the Bible,
and it's the holy of holies.
Speaker:
01:01:26,808 --> 01:01:27,141
Right.
Speaker:
01:01:27,141 --> 01:01:30,395
And so what John is, John
is not telling you sort of
Speaker:
01:01:30,395 --> 01:01:33,398
how much wallpaper they need
or anything like that.
Speaker:
01:01:33,398 --> 01:01:36,192
He's telling you that finally,
Speaker:
01:01:36,192 --> 01:01:39,195
as the story of redemptive history
Speaker:
01:01:39,529 --> 01:01:42,281
comes to its conclusion
Speaker:
01:01:42,281 --> 01:01:45,284
because of Jesus death for his people
Speaker:
01:01:46,035 --> 01:01:49,330
and because He’s finally removing
wickedness from the world,
Speaker:
01:01:49,956 --> 01:01:53,167
that finally
he'll be able to live with his people
Speaker:
01:01:53,918 --> 01:01:56,921
so fully
and so completely that that one space
Speaker:
01:01:57,588 --> 01:02:01,384
that was this contained space,
where God most fully
Speaker:
01:02:02,260 --> 01:02:05,471
dwelt among his people,
The holy of holies, will now,
Speaker:
01:02:05,722 --> 01:02:08,474
the whole of creation
will be the holy of Holies, that God
Speaker:
01:02:08,474 --> 01:02:13,479
and humanity will dwell fully
without barriers again.
Speaker:
01:02:13,730 --> 01:02:15,231
Right? Wow.
Speaker:
01:02:15,231 --> 01:02:18,234
Yeah, that's interesting,
because I've heard that interpreted as,
Speaker:
01:02:18,568 --> 01:02:20,027
you know, it's a literal city.
Speaker:
01:02:20,027 --> 01:02:22,447
It'll be such and such size,
be this, that, whatever.
Speaker:
01:02:22,447 --> 01:02:24,198
Okay, sure.
But that doesn’t tell us anything helpful.
Speaker:
01:02:24,198 --> 01:02:26,117
Well, that was always kind of my.
Speaker:
01:02:26,117 --> 01:02:27,535
Yeah, I was like, okay.
Speaker:
01:02:27,535 --> 01:02:30,204
I guess, I mean, that's
kind of intellectually interesting,
Speaker:
01:02:30,204 --> 01:02:32,457
I guess, but what you're outlining
there is like, whoa,
Speaker:
01:02:32,457 --> 01:02:34,709
the meaning there, it's a lot deeper,
Speaker:
01:02:34,709 --> 01:02:37,545
And it's the fulfillment
of the whole story of the Bible, right?
Speaker:
01:02:37,545 --> 01:02:39,547
Because that's been the question, right?
Speaker:
01:02:39,547 --> 01:02:43,718
When Adam and Eve fell,
they get banished from the place,
Speaker:
01:02:44,093 --> 01:02:46,929
the garden, the place where God and humans
walked with each other.
Speaker:
01:02:46,929 --> 01:02:47,555
Right.
Speaker:
01:02:47,555 --> 01:02:50,433
The whole history of redemption,
all of redemptive history is this.
Speaker:
01:02:50,433 --> 01:02:54,479
There's this question of
how do we get God to live with us again.
Speaker:
01:02:54,854 --> 01:02:55,104
Right.
Speaker:
01:02:55,104 --> 01:02:58,983
And that was, that happened with temples
where God could dwell in their midst,
Speaker:
01:02:58,983 --> 01:03:01,068
but not quite with them. Right.
Speaker:
01:03:01,068 --> 01:03:04,697
And then Jesus claims
to be the new temple presence of God
Speaker:
01:03:05,615 --> 01:03:08,534
that enables eventually,
through his death and resurrection,
Speaker:
01:03:08,534 --> 01:03:11,537
all of us to become little temples
through the spirit.
Speaker:
01:03:12,330 --> 01:03:15,291
And then this is the end right?
Speaker:
01:03:15,291 --> 01:03:16,125
There'll be no,
Speaker:
01:03:17,251 --> 01:03:17,585
I saw
Speaker:
01:03:17,585 --> 01:03:20,630
no temple
in the city because its temple is the Lord
Speaker:
01:03:20,630 --> 01:03:22,298
and the lamb like it's
the direct presence of God.
Speaker:
01:03:22,298 --> 01:03:25,301
The whole entire place
is the holy of holies.
Speaker:
01:03:25,301 --> 01:03:28,137
And so that's.
Speaker:
01:03:28,137 --> 01:03:31,140
You know, John is saying to all of us
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01:03:32,141 --> 01:03:35,144
at the end, and through the spirit,
Speaker:
01:03:35,311 --> 01:03:37,855
and look right after that, he says
Speaker:
01:03:37,855 --> 01:03:40,191
they, the people who dwell in the city,
Speaker:
01:03:40,191 --> 01:03:44,320
will be the ones they will see his face
and his name will be on their foreheads.
Speaker:
01:03:44,862 --> 01:03:48,157
So the issue here is persevere to the end,
Speaker:
01:03:48,616 --> 01:03:51,828
live your life
bearing the stamp of God's name on you.
Speaker:
01:03:52,537 --> 01:03:55,665
And despite the pressure of persecution
Speaker:
01:03:55,915 --> 01:03:58,918
or the allure of the world,
Speaker:
01:03:59,710 --> 01:04:03,548
because a day is coming
when God and humanity will dwell together
Speaker:
01:04:05,550 --> 01:04:08,177
fully, you know. So
Speaker:
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:12,390
that's one example of Old Testament
imagery in the text.
Speaker:
01:04:12,390 --> 01:04:14,684
Yeah, that's so powerful.
Speaker:
01:04:14,684 --> 01:04:17,687
It's almost feels like
that's a nice conclusion.
Speaker:
01:04:17,895 --> 01:04:21,399
Like, you know, to like, as you're saying,
to tell the whole scripture, like it's
Speaker:
01:04:21,399 --> 01:04:26,112
tying that theme together the whole way
through, like the cube thing.
Speaker:
01:04:26,112 --> 01:04:28,906
And, that imagery,
you know, from the Holy of Holies,
Speaker:
01:04:28,906 --> 01:04:30,116
I've never heard that before.
Speaker:
01:04:30,116 --> 01:04:32,034
I've never seen that before.
Speaker:
01:04:32,034 --> 01:04:33,953
Like, that's fascinating to me.
Speaker:
01:04:33,953 --> 01:04:36,080
And it's beautiful. It's a beautiful book.
Speaker:
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:37,415
Right. So.
Speaker:
01:04:37,415 --> 01:04:41,836
So out of this, as we kind of start
bringing this to a close here,
Speaker:
01:04:42,378 --> 01:04:43,421
what would be one thing
Speaker:
01:04:43,421 --> 01:04:46,424
you would like our audience
to take away from this interview?
Speaker:
01:04:47,008 --> 01:04:51,220
That revelation teaches the same message
as the rest of New Testament.
Speaker:
01:04:51,220 --> 01:04:56,142
It tells the story of the Bible,
the story of, it's centered in Jesus’
Speaker:
01:04:56,142 --> 01:04:57,143
death and resurrection.
Speaker:
01:04:58,269 --> 01:04:59,812
It does it a different way.
Speaker:
01:04:59,812 --> 01:05:04,358
But it's a call for all of us
to see the present
Speaker:
01:05:04,358 --> 01:05:08,446
and the future in light of God's,
in God's perspective.
Speaker:
01:05:10,072 --> 01:05:13,034
And yeah, dig into it.
Speaker:
01:05:13,576 --> 01:05:16,203
There's great resources out
there, there's great helps,
Speaker:
01:05:16,203 --> 01:05:19,498
but dig in to the Old Testament,
dig into it, expect it to
Speaker:
01:05:20,958 --> 01:05:23,085
be full of, again
Speaker:
01:05:23,085 --> 01:05:27,381
weaving the threads of redemptive history
to its conclusion, and then live.
Speaker:
01:05:27,590 --> 01:05:30,593
Again, It's a pair of glasses, not a code.
Speaker:
01:05:31,969 --> 01:05:32,470
Yeah. Okay.
Speaker:
01:05:32,470 --> 01:05:37,350
So that's a key, remembering
that it's glasses, a way of like...
Speaker:
01:05:37,558 --> 01:05:40,561
What you would, define that a bit like,
instead of this, this code
Speaker:
01:05:40,561 --> 01:05:43,814
of some crazy prophecies
or whatever you're looking at is glasses.
Speaker:
01:05:43,940 --> 01:05:45,816
Yeah. It's a way
Speaker:
01:05:45,816 --> 01:05:49,862
of seeing the world,
through a different lens.
Speaker:
01:05:50,905 --> 01:05:53,991
So again, the things that I think
are just everyday life
Speaker:
01:05:54,533 --> 01:05:59,121
or the things I'm tempted to,
the things I'm tempted towards,
Speaker:
01:05:59,121 --> 01:06:01,582
I'm supposed to see
the cosmic significance of,
Speaker:
01:06:01,582 --> 01:06:06,087
supposed to see them from God's
perspective and recognize that, again,
Speaker:
01:06:06,087 --> 01:06:08,839
to use the mark of the beast versus
the mark of God imagery
Speaker:
01:06:08,839 --> 01:06:12,301
that I'm faced throughout my whole life
with the temptation
Speaker:
01:06:12,301 --> 01:06:14,261
to be marked by the beast
instead of being marked by God.
Speaker:
01:06:14,261 --> 01:06:18,808
These are not just little, if I choose
to wed myself to a certain political party
Speaker:
01:06:18,808 --> 01:06:22,812
because I think it will advance the cause
of the Kingdom of God or something.
Speaker:
01:06:24,689 --> 01:06:26,899
Revelation never pictures
God's people doing that.
Speaker:
01:06:26,899 --> 01:06:29,902
It pictures God's people bearing
witness and suffering.
Speaker:
01:06:30,236 --> 01:06:32,029
That's pretty much it, right?
Speaker:
01:06:32,029 --> 01:06:35,866
And so, you know, you start
asking yourself, am I actually risking
Speaker:
01:06:36,534 --> 01:06:39,745
kind of being marked more by the likeness,
Speaker:
01:06:39,745 --> 01:06:43,874
the image of the beast than by the image
and likeness of the Lamb?
Speaker:
01:06:44,875 --> 01:06:45,876
Right.
Speaker:
01:06:45,876 --> 01:06:48,838
That's what I mean by glasses. Right.
Speaker:
01:06:48,838 --> 01:06:52,717
So. I think that's a pretty profound,
Speaker:
01:06:52,758 --> 01:06:55,761
that's a good one to end on And it's
convicting to me.
Speaker:
01:06:56,762 --> 01:07:00,057
So revelation otherwise is
never really kind of that convicting.
Speaker:
01:07:00,683 --> 01:07:02,685
Right. But this actually has a punch.
Speaker:
01:07:02,685 --> 01:07:04,145
It's like, ooh, okay,
Speaker:
01:07:04,145 --> 01:07:07,940
I see things in my life, the ways that
I don't live this way, right?
Speaker:
01:07:07,940 --> 01:07:09,942
So I think that's what John would want.
Speaker:
01:07:09,942 --> 01:07:11,235
Wow. That's fantastic.
Speaker:
01:07:11,235 --> 01:07:13,571
Well, hopefully out of this episode,
Speaker:
01:07:13,571 --> 01:07:16,532
people have gotten some more tools
and ways of thinking about these things,
Speaker:
01:07:16,532 --> 01:07:20,703
but also just a real encouragement
to get back into the Book of Revelation.
Speaker:
01:07:20,745 --> 01:07:24,331
And as you're saying,
those Old Testament pieces, too, you know,
Speaker:
01:07:24,665 --> 01:07:28,294
that was the part
that was really encouraging to me is,
Speaker:
01:07:28,294 --> 01:07:29,670
you know, you don't have to go
Speaker:
01:07:29,670 --> 01:07:31,505
take all these courses
and read all these other books, like
Speaker:
01:07:31,505 --> 01:07:35,092
just start reading the Old Testament again
and see how it ties in with Revelation.
Speaker:
01:07:35,134 --> 01:07:36,844
That's really powerful! Wow.
Speaker:
01:07:36,844 --> 01:07:38,763
Thank you so much for sharing, Paul.
This has been excellent. Thanks!
Speaker:
01:07:40,139 --> 01:07:40,973
Thanks for listening
Speaker:
01:07:40,973 --> 01:07:44,477
to this episode with Paul Lamicela
on the Book of Revelation.
Speaker:
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:47,938
If you found this interesting, we've done
several other interviews with him on
Speaker:
01:07:47,980 --> 01:07:52,026
how to study the Bible and read it well,
so you can find those links down below.
Speaker:
01:07:52,193 --> 01:07:54,028
And of course, you can find
all our content
Speaker:
01:07:54,028 --> 01:07:57,573
over on our website
at anabaptistperspectives.org
Speaker:
01:07:57,782 --> 01:08:00,785
Thanks again for your support
and for listening to this podcast.
Speaker:
01:11:33,455 --> 01:11:37,042
And for us today, I think the pressures
maybe are more subtle.
Speaker:
01:11:37,710 --> 01:11:38,210
Right.
Speaker:
01:11:38,210 --> 01:11:43,590
And that's part of the power of revelation
is to imbue our everyday subtle
Speaker:
01:11:43,674 --> 01:11:48,095
sort of life with this cosmic imagery
that says what we think is just
Speaker:
01:11:49,013 --> 01:11:52,641
politics or the markets
or the pleasures of,
Speaker:
01:11:53,183 --> 01:11:55,853
or temptations
towards anything pornography,
Speaker:
01:11:55,853 --> 01:11:58,981
sexual immorality, whatever it is,
things are just like everyday things.
Speaker:
01:11:59,398 --> 01:12:00,149
But revelation
Speaker:
01:12:00,149 --> 01:12:03,235
with this powerful imagery says, No, no,
no, that's the beast and the prostitute.
Speaker:
01:12:39,021 --> 01:12:43,359
the goal is never to say
I need to read something literally.
Speaker:
01:12:44,026 --> 01:12:46,987
The goal is to say how does God
Speaker:
01:12:47,404 --> 01:12:50,407
and the human author want me to read this?
Speaker:
01:12:52,326 --> 01:12:54,787
the most important thing to say
is whatever this is,
Speaker:
01:12:54,787 --> 01:12:58,832
is the antithesis of being sealed
with God's name.
Speaker:
01:12:59,208 --> 01:13:04,088
Being somebody who says I belong,
my allegiance is not to the beast.
Speaker:
01:13:04,421 --> 01:13:05,839
My allegiance is to Jesus.
Speaker:
01:13:05,839 --> 01:13:08,467
And that might mean
I suffer a lot in this life,
Speaker:
01:13:08,467 --> 01:13:10,427
but it means I'm going to
be saved from final judgment.
Speaker:
01:13:12,679 --> 01:13:14,890
That's the thing I hate most about
Speaker:
01:13:14,890 --> 01:13:17,684
wondering about the mark of the beast
being some piece of technology.
Speaker:
01:13:17,684 --> 01:13:21,397
Oops, I just got the wrong credit card
and now I'm going to hell or something.
Speaker:
01:13:22,689 --> 01:13:24,566
That has nothing to do with one's heart.
Speaker:
01:13:24,566 --> 01:13:27,569
But what John is talking about
is where is your allegiance?
Speaker:
01:13:27,861 --> 01:13:30,572
Are you living your life now
Speaker:
01:13:30,572 --> 01:13:34,660
marked by this, by God's name on your head
Speaker:
01:13:34,993 --> 01:13:37,996
or the world system, name on your head?
Speaker:
01:13:39,873 --> 01:13:43,627
And for us today, I think the pressures
maybe are more subtle.
Speaker:
01:13:44,294 --> 01:13:44,795
Right.
Speaker:
01:13:44,795 --> 01:13:50,175
And that's part of the power of revelation
is to imbue our everyday subtle
Speaker:
01:13:50,259 --> 01:13:54,680
sort of life with this cosmic imagery
that says what we think is just
Speaker:
01:13:55,597 --> 01:13:59,226
politics or the markets
or the pleasures of,
Speaker:
01:13:59,768 --> 01:14:02,438
or temptations
towards anything pornography,
Speaker:
01:14:02,438 --> 01:14:05,566
sexual immorality, whatever it is,
things are just like everyday things.
Speaker:
01:14:05,983 --> 01:14:08,735
But revelation with this powerful imagery
says, No, no, no, that's
Speaker:
01:14:08,735 --> 01:14:09,778
the beast and the prostitute.