Welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host, Dr. G. And our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. Today we are discussing primates and to talk about primates, we have a very good friend of mine, Tessa Cannon, who is the founder and director of For the Love of Primates. Thank you, Tessa, for joining us.

Hi, Dr. G. Thank you so much for inviting me to be on this. I'm very excited to talk to you.

I know some about your journey, but I'm sure there's some stuff that I don't know about. So, can you let people know about what your studies have been and what has brought you to where you are today?

Sure. This kind of goes all the way back to when I was in college, which feels like forever ago now. Um, but when I was an undergrad, I got the opportunity to travel to South Africa and volunteer at a primate sanctuary there, which took in orphaned baboons, Raise them in troops and then re-release them into the wild. So that kind of fostered my love of primates in the first place. I then went on to get my master's degree, in primate conservation. And then after that kind of backtracked a little and went back to school and, became a veterinary technician. the reason that I actually became a tech was because when I went to, this organization in South Africa, They had a really, really huge need for people that were volunteers, but just happened to be trained as technicians. Um, so I really wanted to be able to provide that skillset wherever, wherever I ended up. I took a little detour for quite a while, and just worked in regular private practice as a vet tech. And then decided to go back to school to get my PhD, which I am almost done with now. I've got about one more year left. Um, and around that same time, founded for the love of primates. Um, so when I did my master's research, I worked with sanctuary primates at a sanctuary here in the us. and they were all from compromised backgrounds of some kind. So they had either come from, laboratories, they had previously been kept as pets and then either confiscated or surrendered. Um, and I worked with them on a lot of the abnormal behaviors that they were displaying and helping them kind of redirect those to more species typical behaviors. and after working with them, I just kind of fell in love with working with sanctuary primates and, decided that that's where I wanted to spend the rest of my life and work doing. so I, I'm currently a PhD student at Ohio State, getting my degree in anthropology, but specifically studying primates. and then around that same time that I went back to school, founded this organization, which I'm sure we'll talk lots more about.

What is the goal and the mission of For the Love of Primates?

For the Love of Primates is a 501c3 nonprofit organization, and we're dedicated to the care and understanding of non-human primates that are used in laboratory research, used in entertainment or were previously kept as pets. and the ultimate goal is to create a sanctuary here in central Ohio for these animals. And, we're well on our way. We actually just put in an o on some land, so we're making strides towards, making that dream come true.

What kind of primates are we looking to have in the sanctuary?

So we'll likely end up with mostly macaques and vervets. So for people that don't really know much about primates, they're kind of medium sized monkeys. and they're the most commonly used in laboratory research, especially within the labs that are here in Ohio. so those are what we'll likely end up with. we will create our sanctuary so that it's a little bit more versatile so that we can accept other types of monkeys, other species of monkeys, just in case we get any from the pet trade, we wanna be able to provide for them as well.

This is a really cool organization and, as you well know, I don't have a lot of experience with primates, so that's not my, my part in the organization as a veterinarian, as the practicing veterinarian, but more in the topic of welfare. Uh, but one of the things that I really like is just the, the individuals that are part of this board, because everybody is so smart and bring something very unique to the organization. So how did you pick the board members?

Yeah. Um, so we have a five person board, including me and Dr. G. so it started fairly small. I first asked a friend of mine, Maddie, to come on the board. She's actually another anthropologist. She's a biological anthropologist. but she not only studies evolution, but she also studies bones and people. So that part doesn't work in as well. but she's very, very knowledgeable about the evolutionary side of everything, which we, um, our apes, we evolved alongside a lot of these species. So, all of our evolution is very tied together, so she brings that knowledge as well. She's also the most organized person that I've ever met. so you definitely need someone like that when you're, not only starting an organization but wanting it to run smoothly. we then added on Melissa Renner, and she has a master's in public health. Um, also a very good friend of mine and she had just has this huge passion for primates, um, that. Like most of the people that are in the board isn't directly related to their actual job, but that's okay. Um, she's also very, very well connected in the nonprofit community. So she brings not only that love for primates, but also the nonprofit community experience to us as well. She's also a business owner, so she has that knowledge too. We brought in Ryan Nagle. She's our community representative, and we definitely wanted to be able to have a voice for the Ohio community and the animal lover community throughout Ohio on our board and that's exactly what Ryan brings. And then of course our most recent ad was you, Dr. G. Um, and I'm just so thankful that you're a part of this organization. You bring such a wealth of knowledge about animal welfare, and I think that particularly what will come most in handy as we're moving forward is. Just your knowledge of the like laws surrounding animal welfare cuz a lot of these animals that we are gonna get from the pet trade are likely going to be coming from not so great situations. so I think you're going to bring some amazing knowledge to that once we have to have to deal with those things. And one thing

that is really important for the listeners to understand is that this is a group of people that are passionate about the welfare of primates. And this is also a group of people who do not own primates. Because that is the, kind of the, the whole point of it, it's, uh, keeping them safe and understanding why they're, why they're not really pet. Let's talk first about the research side of it. Um, I think that, that the people's perception of the number of primates in research is a little skewed. So can you tell us about the reality of the number of animals and the types of animals that are used in research?

Yeah, of course. so recently there have been some, strides towards improving the welfare of primates use in research, which has been great. they actually discontinued using chimpanzees in research, which were one of the most commonly used primates. they were the really, one of the biggest apes used in research. but since they are so closely related to us as humans, a lot of people didn't really like that they were being used in research. So a lot of laws got passed, and now all of those apes are being retired. but plenty of monkey species are still being used in research. Um, there are over a hundred thousand primates that are currently housed in laboratories around the U.S. and to put that into perspective, there are less than a thousand that are housed in sanctuaries like ours. and the majority that are housed as sanctuaries are these chimpanzees because they're the ones that are being discontinued their use in, in research. So they're the ones in need of homes right now. and then most of these monkeys that are being used in research simply just have nowhere to go once they are eligible for retirement. so that's one of the reasons that we decided to focus specifically on monkeys was because all these chimpanzees, they're already being very, very well provided for in these sanctuaries. so one of the biggest needs is for monkeys that are being retired from research and it is becoming more and more common. a lot of researchers, laboratory technicians are really pushing for more retirement, and research has actually shown that, when the researchers and lab techs that are working with these animals know that they're going to be retired, at the end of their research, they show improved workplace morale, improved emotional wellbeing, and like, who doesn't want that for the people that work for them? But there is still a really huge stigma around using primates in research. So a lot of places keep it pretty quiet, but unfortunately it's just a reality because all of the drugs, a lot of cosmetics up until fairly recently, medical treatments, medical devices, all of those things have to be tested in primates before they're allowed to be released to the general public and to be tested in humans. And it's required by the FDA. I don't see it changing any soon. there have been some laws that have been recently put forth to at least improve the welfare of primates while they're being used in research, which we really like to see. but I don't see the, like the discontinuance of primates use in research isn't going to happen in our lifetime. I don't, I don't think. Um, so it's our goal to work. Instead, like working, instead of working against these labs, we really wanna work in collaboration with them to improve the welfare of their primates even before they come into the sanctuary setting. One of the

things that I can imagine is going to be a big issue is, I'm assuming that some, the majority of these primates are gonna come in and they're going to be relatively healthy, but behaviorally because of everything that they have gone through, there's going to be a period of adjustment. So what do you feel is going to be the biggest concerns as these guys come from life in research to life in a sanctuary?

Yeah, definitely. Um, so it really depends on kind of what studies they're coming from what they would be used to. But we're going to need to be prepared for all backgrounds and all of those circumstances. Um, so some primates used in research are trained for certain behaviors, which can make, like doing veterinary exams and things like that a little bit easier. but a lot of labs don't train them for those behaviors, so they can have a lot of fear, especially surrounding being isolated into smaller cages, which is necessary to do any kind of veterinary exams. Um, so one of the things that we will definitely be putting a lot of effort into doing is working with positive reinforcement training to train them to first, not panic when they're in these kind of situations. And second to even voluntarily present themselves for these kind of procedures so that we can avoid sedation and avoid having to knock them out for every little thing and remove them from their friends. and so that they can voluntarily participate in these behaviors and get rewarded for doing those things. besides that, a lot of primates that come from compromised backgrounds, whether that be as pets or in the lab setting, anywhere that they're not just wild they're going to come in with some abnormal and stereotypic behaviors. Um, so stereotypic behavior is any usually a repetitive thing, but doesn't always have to be. And it's any kind of behavior that is not normal for that species. So this can be things like pacing, even hitting themselves, biting themselves over grooming so much that they pull out their hair. pretty much any kind of behavior that's, getting out some kind of anxiety for this animal. Um, so a lot of the work that we'll also be doing will be to provide them with different outlets for these behaviors that, um, are going to promote more species, typical behaviors and make it so that they don't no longer feel the need for doing these kind of stereotypic behaviors because they're doing them because one of those needs isn't being met. so really working towards meeting those needs and, accommodating them each as individuals will be a really, really big focus for us. So the other

side of it is going to be people that want to have as pets. And, just a few days ago, a friend of mine was telling me about how she would love to adopt a capuchin monkey. And I was like, please NO! right? Because, they're cute and I think, a big part of the problem is how television and movies depict these animals as pets, and people don't understand that these animals are not behaving how they normally would. They are trained to do these behaviors, so they're really just following a script. So what are going to be the issues. Let's start with just what they don't learn as, as babies. What are gonna be the issues of a primate growing up without other primates? Growing up with humans?

Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. Um, so primates are just, Right, like they have culture, and they learn behaviors from their parents. Just the way that we learn behaviors from our parents. We learn how to feed ourselves, how to groom ourselves. We learn how to socially interact with members of our own species and primates are exactly like that. so no matter how hard, uh, owner works, a human owner works, or how well they're trying to provide for their animals. They simply can't provide the same stimulation in the same environment that they would in the wild with members of their own species. so primates are wild animals. They have very complex physical and emotional needs, and humans simply cannot provide for those needs, particularly when they're being kept in a home, like a regular home, like pets. so even the owners that have the best intentions just simply cannot provide this kind of care. so this often ends up with malnourishment, anorexia. they will start very cute and small, and owners will think that they have a really good handle on these things. But those cute little babies that they first adopt, they grow up. Um, and they can become aggressive. They can be unpredictable because these are wild animals. They're not domesticated. and they can develop these very similar, like I just said, with monkeys that come from research, these abnormal and self-harming behaviors that we really don't want, especially if it's an animal that we're trying to take care of. We don't wanna see them harming themselves. So, yeah. I think that the, the biggest thing that we're trying to teach when we do educational initiatives in the community is these are just not meant to be pets. Yeah. It's

really important for them to, to learn from. Is their parents, like about how long do babies spend with the, with their moms as they're growing? How long is

that bond? so for some species that bond is lifelong. so a lot of species are matrilineal, which means that the females all stay together and then the males will spend maybe four or five years until they reach sexual maturity and then they will leave. and other bo um, other types, that's the other way around where the males will kind of all stick together and sometimes the females will move, but they're at least spending at least. 3, 4, 5, if not more years with their parents to be able to bond, to be able to learn those social cues and how to act and how to be a primate. And when they're raised in captivity, especially in breeding situations, they're typically removed from their mothers almost immediately, because they. Breeders want to hand rear these animals because it's going to make them seem the most tame. Um, so they'll end up removing them. They'll start bottle feeding instead of allowing them to nurse naturally from their mother, and so they're first not getting the nutrition that they need because they're not being nursed by a member of their own species. And second, they're not learning any of those behaviors. Starting at a few days, few weeks old, um, when in the wild they would be learning those things up until they're sexually mature.

When I was doing my Master's in forensic psychology, one of the things that, one of the important theories that we learn about is attachment theory. And how attachment theory is responsible for how the interactions that we as humans have as children, how traumatic interactions or lack of proper interactions will cause problems in the future. For instance, like, uh, Hoarding Right. Uh, that, uh, most of the time hoarding behavior is because somebody did not receive proper affection as a child, and then they grow up and they, they have all these issues. And one of the books that I was reading on attachment disorder kept coming back and comparing children to monkeys. And they were comparing it in saying how monkeys develop this. Uh, they're, they have their own language with other monkeys, and then if they're unable to have those, those behaviors at a young age, they're unable to progress appropriately and grow up to be normal adult. Right. So what are gonna be the ways to, like, can we, can we work that out by introducing them to other monkeys or is that a damage that kind of, they're stuck with forever? I.

Yeah. So it really depends on the individual, um, which is a complicated way of saying sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. through the work that I've done at other sanctuaries, I've definitely met individual primates that because they were taken away so early and lived as a pet for so long, they just don't know how to interact with other primates. And this can make the other animals feel very uncomfortable. So much so that they can't be around each other without having some kind of physical altercation that's just gonna put them in danger. So our goal is to be able to intervene as quickly as possible and be able to get them into at least a pair housing so that they can have that interaction. Because that interaction is better than any type of enrichment that we would be able to provide. So we definitely will be working towards, you know, making sure that they're housed with at least one other individual, if not in a group setting or whatever type of, um, groups are normal for their species. But unfortunately a lot of the animals that come from pet situations just end up not being able to live happily with other animals, which is really up upsetting. And one of the points that

we have brought up, uh, well back is that because of all the attention and because of everything else, people don't realize that some of the species are actually endangered. Right. So what can you tell us about

that? Yeah, so, um, having pet primates or, and posting photos of them on social media or seeing them in any kind of unnatural situations in the media, like in movies, where they're in things like a diaper, where they're in clothing, in some kind of human situation or in a human home. Research has shown that the p seeing these things actually leads them to believe that these animals are not endangered in the wild. And most primate species are either threatened and endangered high, very critical risk. Every single ape species is endangered. And a lot of people don't believe that because one where we were experimenting on them for so long in the lab setting, and two, they see them in all of these movies. Um, because it's funny, it's funny when an ape or a monkey is, dressed up like that, or it's really cute if you're seeing them in a diaper and they're cuddling with somebody. But seeing these things actually leads people to not only believe that they're not endangered, but donate less to causes that are actually helping primates in the wild and helping with conservation. So even if people are having these primates as pets, they can make small strides to improve the welfare of primates just by not posting them and not making it very public that they own these animals.

Yeah, I went to a Jeep show and I was really annoyed because there was somebody with, with a small monkey, and they had it on a leash, and then they kept telling people, stay back, stay back. Well, you're bringing them in. You're clearly drawing attention to yourself. You're bringing them to a public place. And he was asking people to stay back because it was scaring the monkey. Like, why even mess with it? But everybody that was walking by, I'm sure that their first thought was, oh my God, that's so cute. I want one. Right? Because that's how, that's how people are. Where about impulse buying. We are about, you know, I, I gotta have it right now. And just not with just primates, like with any kind of animal. I don't think that. A lot of people do the proper research before bringing that animal into their home. Whether it be something as simple as dogs and not researching the breed, and then you are in a small apartment with a dog that wants to run around all day long and bark, um, to other exotics like reptiles. I was, uh, talking a, a bit back with, uh, with an exotics doctor that was saying, you know, people get these animals and they don't know that they have to have special. Temperature and humidity and food and everything else. It's kind of the same thing. I think that people see these, these primates and think that it's cool and it's a novelty, and then they get them and then have no idea how to, how to deal with them and how to properly, uh, take care of them.

Yeah, being cute is definitely one of their biggest curses. There was that viral video that I think, I don't even know, it might have been 10 years ago by now. That tickling slow loris video that someone had a slow loris as a pet and it was like raising its arms up and being tickled the armpits and I actually use that, um, like screenshots from that video a lot when I'm teaching my undergraduates at Ohio State, learning about primates and their behavior because that pose with their arms up for a slow loris is actually a defensive posture. So the slow loris is actually the only venomous primate that lives in the us And for a really long time after this video, it became so popular as a pet because. Well, one, people didn't look it up to know that it was venomous and that it could kill them if it bit them. And two, they saw it in this really cute viral video and that was just all over the internet. Um, so things like that ended up affecting the number that were getting smuggled in through like illegal, through the illegal pet trade. They ended up getting their teeth pulled out because they're venomous and if they bite you then they can kill you. So people just yeah, don't really do their homework for sure when they're thinking about owning a primate as a pet

And primates can cause, I mean, we'll talk a little bit about some of the injuries that have been reported, but there's also the concern about the diseases that they can give us because there's so similar to us and they can carry diseases that are extremely serious to us. So what are gonna be some of the things that primates can, can carry that they can make us sick? Yeah,

so primates actually can get almost every disease that humans can get. So really you're just adding like another little member of your family that's going to really bring you, bring you any kind of disease, especially if they're coming from a situation where they weren't being, you know, taken the best care of. One of the things that we will actually be doing in the sanctuary is making sure that all everyone is wearing proper protective equipment, so that one, they're not giving us any diseases, and two, we're not giving any diseases to them. So primates, especially in zoos, were a really big risk for developing covid. And actually, like they, they can easily get covid. They were used to develop the Covid 19 vaccine. As far as pets go and worrying about any kind of zoonotic disease, they're um, one of the most major because they are so closely related to us.

When we start talking about some of the physical risks, the injuries, um, I am sure that some people think, well, that's gonna be more like the chimpanzees, the bigger apes that are going to cause damage. And yeah, they can definitely cause more damage and they can kill you. However, these smaller guys can also cause a lot of problems. So do you wanna share some of the cases of small monkeys that have injured people significantly?

Sure. So you were just talking about that small monkey that you saw at the Jeep Show. I think you sent me a picture of it. I'm pretty sure it was a capuchin. At least I could, from what I could see in the photo, and capuchins are one of the most frequently owned because they stay fairly small. But they still have a lot of really, really sharp teeth. There have been cases, there was one in New York by, for a woman who was mauled by a capuchin monkey that was being kept at a lodge in New York. She was left with major scarring all over her face and her cheeks. There was obviously concern for rabies the same way that there's concern for rabies anytime you're a bit by a dog or any other wild animal. There was a three year old PA Capuchin who attacked a woman without any warning. She ended up with really severe damage to one of her hands. Um, and the, the pictures, oh, they just give you the shivers. Um, They're, additionally even with monkeys that have had their teeth pulled, because this is unfortunately very common with pet monkeys, that the breeders will pull them even before they sell them to avoid all of these bites and injuries. They still have pretty powerful jaws and can do a lot of damage. So a woman with a macaque Monkey, so one of the, type, the species that we're planning on housing, whose canine teeth had been removed, inflicted really severe bruising on this woman's arm just from one single attack, even without those teeth to be able to help them. So these are just like a, a few cases there are hundreds reported every year of people with petm monkeys that are being injured by them. Um, and what's the most nerve-wracking about it is that these animals can seem so sweet and get along with you so well, and you feel like they're a member of your family, but they're, they're wild animals and you don't know what instincts they're born with. That will not go away no matter how hard you try to make them seem domesticated or tame. Um, and. If you don't completely understand their behavior the same way another monkey is going to, you're not going to be able to see those signs that they may react aggressively in some way. And

one of the things is that it can take many years, right, for them to exhibit the negative behavior. Around what age do they start showing these problems, these behavioral

problems? It's usually around the, when they start reaching sexual maturity. So when they're very young, they're viewing humans like they're their parents. So while you still may see some, what we would as violent behavior, or behaviors that could potentially injure you. A lot of this will be because they didn't learn how to play fight when they were, they didn't have a parent to teach them how to play, fight, or how to react when an animal is threatening them or anything like that. So they're looking to humans instead for this guidance, but they don't speak our language and we don't speak theirs. While they have not reached, yes reached sexual maturity, they're still going to be looking you for, tho looking at you for those cues and not really reacting in the way that they would in the wild. But once they reach sexual maturity, they have enough, not only size behind them, but their biology changes, their hormone change. And because they can't express these species-typical behaviors that they want to express it leads to them getting more and more agitated, more and more stressed out. And the more anxiety that they have in those kind of settings, then the more likely they are to exhibit dangerous behaviors towards their owners.

A lot of people get monkeys illegally. Is it legal to own monkeys in Ohio?

Unfortunately you can still own a few types of monkeys in Ohio. Thankfully Ohio actually has one of the semi more strict laws about it. There was that man in Zanesville Gosh, I think about 10 years ago now, maybe more, that had a bunch of exotic animals and released them and caused it a huge media frenzy surrounding that. And because of that, they started instituting a lot more laws around what types of animals you can own. But unfortunately, a lot of the small monkeys just slip through the cracks. So you are legally allowed to own some small monkeys in Ohio. There are states surrounding us, though, that have no laws. There are no federal laws that prohibit you from keeping any kind of primate as a pet which I really hope will change sometime soon. So it's really up to the individual state to be able to create these laws. And even though Ohio, Ohio still does allow some, we're technically one of the more strict when you're talking about what you can own throughout the U.S.

So if somebody has a, a monkey, like not every veterinarian is going to be trained to, to deal with them, which is going to be a, a huge issue. How does somebody find a veterinarian that is trained and capable of dealing with

monkeys? Yeah, so that's really hard. There are really not very many, especially in states like Ohio, where it's usually illegal to own them. So there are a couple, like exotic veterinarians that will see them. Know of some just because I've spent so long in the veterinary community in Ohio at least, but I can imagine for an, an individual owning a monkey like this, they probably just don't really take them to the vet very much, because there's nowhere for them to go. Or if they do have to travel, they would have to travel hours to be able to find somebody that is knowledgeable enough to be able to, to treat that animal. So when they do end up surrendering these animals, we usually end up seeing a lot of, not only behavioral, but physical illnesses, hair missing, anorexia, malnourishment. So a lot of these issues are what's one of the kind of tipping points to get them to finally realize that they need to sur to surrender their animal.

So if somebody has a monkey and they realize that they need to surrender it, or they're listening to this and realize that perhaps what they're doing is not the right thing, what kind of resources are there available until we get our sanctuary going, that they can, that they can look for help.

Yeah. So if they are searching, they can always reach out to us and we can point them in the right direction. But one of the places that I've always tell people to go if they are asking these kind of questions is the North American Primate Sanctuary Alliance. So it's a group of sanctuaries that are dedicated to providing really, really high quality care for primates. There are, I believe, eight member sanctuaries right now located all around the U.S. And they have a section on their website where you can click if you would like to retire your primate, and they can help you find placement. So they're a really wonderful resource. Yeah, I would like to

warn people about, you know, if you go searching on the internet or anything like that, you can find a lot of fake sanctuaries, people that are pre pretend sanctuaries or they end up being just like petting zoos and wanting to get these animals and just abusing them some more, not giving them what they need.

So very important

to, to find a place that is a good place, that is a reputable place. can you let people know how to get information about, for the love of primates, the things that they can do to either help the organization to volunteer to learn more? How do people, how can we hook 'em up?

Yeah, for sure. So you can always start with our website, which is just fortheloveofprimates.org, and that has links to pretty much everything else. It's got links to our social media. Um, so you can follow our journey. You can sign up for our newsletter. We don't spam you. We only send out updates when really exciting things happen. And on that website, you can also find our page to sign up to volunteer. You don't need to be located in Columbus or even in Ohio to volunteer. We have volunteers from all over the US that help create digital content, writing blogs really doing any of. Covid has made everything so accessible now over the internet that we can have volunteers from anywhere, which is great. Um, if you do live in Columbus or in Cleveland or anywhere in Ohio, we do a lot of events around the state where we always need volunteers. These can be anything from going to festivals just to represent our organization and help people learn more about us, to educational initiatives that we'll do with kids and with adult groups. So you can sign up to be volunteer on our page as well. And of course, we are nonprofit, so we thrive on donations. So we have places where you can donate once, you can sign up to be a primate protector, which are our monthly donors. And we always will update throughout our newsletter and social media when we're doing, um, kind of big fundraisers for any of our major milestones.

Anybody that wants to learn about primate welfare and primate advocacy, are there any good reading resources or website resources that they can learn more?

Yeah, so I would definitely, again, send them to the NAPSA, North American Primate Sanctuary Alliance website. They have a lot of information on there. Just a lot about the initiatives that they support. There also is a wonderful organization that I recently met at the NAPSA workshop that I just went to last month, which was amazing. There's a group called Wild Welfare, that I hope that we'll be able to work with in the future, but they have a lot of really amazing resources on their website, just about the welfare of any kind of animal that's typically wild but is being kept in captivity. And this can be anything from being in a zoo, being in a sanctuary, being in a lab, any, any type of place where a w typically wild animal is being kept captive for some reason. And they do a lot of really amazing animal welfare work, so they have a lot of great

resources. Is there anything in closing that we have forgotten to talk about or any message that you wanna give to the listeners?

I think the biggest thing is just helping us get the word out. A lot of people don't know that finding housing for retired primates is even an issue. So the fact that there are so many being held in labs or kept as pets right now that have nowhere to retire, all of the wonderful sanctuaries that are a part of NAPSA are all pretty much functioning at capacity. That's one of the reasons that we started this organization in the first place, was just to give more space for these animals to go. So not only can they help us get the word out about that, but like we were talking about before, if they see any posts on that their friends are posting on social media, or anything that they're sharing that is depicting an animal, a primate, particularly in an unnatural setting, just kind of having that polite conversation and being like, Hey, did you know that posting this can help actually lead people to think that these animals are endangered? It'd be really cool if you took that down. So that's something really small that people can do just in their everyday lives to help primates. Well,

I'm looking forward to all the awesome things that we are going to do and to someday being there to open this sanctuary and start taking some of these primates that need rescued. Thank you for inviting me to be part of this organization. I think it's amazing and we'll continue to keep people updated with the amazing things that will come about.

Yeah. Thank you so much for being a part of it. We're so happy to have you and I'm happy that I was able to come on here and talk a little bit about it today. Yes,

absolutely. We need to educate people because again, education is key. People are ignorant sometimes because they don't know. So maybe we, we have informed some people that we're thinking about maybe getting a primate, and after listening to this, they will think twice and, and understand why it's not okay. So, so again, thank you for being here and for everybody that's listening, thank you for listening, and thank you for caring.