Between red and machine and man.

Join us on the grid as we consider questions about perfection, empathy and purpose.

Are you just watching episode 166, Tron Aries.

Welcome to the podcast that shares critical thinking for the entertained Christian.

I'm Eve Franklin.

I'm Tim Martin.

And we're kind of, you know, sticking with the computer theme.

I think we kind of have dealt with that a lot this year.

This year, yeah.

But that's to be fair, Hollywood is too.

Yes, yes.

And I really wanted to do Tron because if you have been with us since the very beginning, Daniel Lewis and I actually started this podcast off of a non ayjw episode on the original movie Tron.

And we also got super excited about Tron Legacy when it came out and did an initial reaction episode to that as well.

So we definitely encourage you to go back and listen to Daniel Lewis and I's reviews of those two movies.

They are very early on in our podcast, actually.

I think they were Both published in 2010.

Yep.

Link them in the show notes.

Well, we'll definitely link to them in the show notes because I think I'm actually going to refer to them a few times as we talk about Aries.

It's hard to talk about Aries outside of the very small world of Tron.

There isn't a ton in that world.

But I think now that Disney has kind of killed a few other franchises, they're probably going to pick Tron back up and try to make some money off of it.

Can't say as I blame them.

I mean, that's how they do it.

I just wish they'd come up with more original stuff.

Yeah.

Or just do it better.

That's the problem is that's how they're destroying all of these franchises.

They're picking up something that was excellent and they're just destroying it by not doing it as well.

Sadly.

But Tron was originally a Disney property.

And if you go back into the making of Tron, I'm not entirely sure it would have ever been a movie if it hadn't been for Disney because they were a little bit more cutting edge back in the 80s and they were willing to sink money into projects that were very highly experimental.

Yeah.

And Tron was extremely experimental.

They were figuring out how to do it as they did it.

And back then they didn't have computer animation.

And I thought it was interesting.

Did you catch this in your research that the movie Tron was denied an Oscar?

Yeah.

Academy Award.

Yeah, it was denied the nomination.

Not even just the Award, but it was denied the nomination because they thought they had cheated on their special effects by using computers.

But.

And look at us now.

Look at us now.

We can't do special effects without computers.

It's crazy.

Okay, so before we get too far into our reactions about this, I do, of course, want to mention the music.

And I'm gonna kind of go into it a slightly different way because Ares and I. Ares, the main character of Tron.

Ares.

Is he the main character?

I guess he sorta is.

Sorry, Bunny trail.

We share a music preference which I thought was very interesting.

He mentions in the movie that he is actually when he's being questioned at one point by the Flynn character that's in the old server.

And we just.

Yeah.

The Flynn consciousness about what his favorite music was.

And he had to contrast Mozart and Depeche Mode.

And he came out saying that he actually preferred Depeche Mode and asked why.

He was like, I don't really know why.

It's just a feeling.

And so if you ask me why I like Depeche Mode, I will just have to reply, I don't know.

It's just a feeling.

They do actually play teensy bit of Depeche Mode while they're in the car together at some point where he's confessing to Yves Kim that.

Yeah.

Is his favorite bin.

Yeah.

And I actually started singing along in this theater because I like that song.

Just can't get enough.

Did you get weird looks?

I didn't do it loud enough to get weird looks.

And it's a very loud movie.

So I don't think it.

Anybody heard me, that's for sure.

It is a loud movie.

It is a very loud movie.

I know a lot of people are saying that you should see this movie on the best big screen you have because the best part of this movie is the effects and sound and everything.

But I will have to disagree with most people that I did not care for the soundtrack.

It's not often that I say that about a movie that I just don't like the soundtrack.

But Nine Inch Nails, to me, the majority of it sounds like nails on a chalkboard.

It's very discordant.

And the.

These sounds are sometimes.

Yeah.

Painful in the music.

Yeah.

It's hard not to try to compare it to Tron Legacy, where the soundtrack was done by Daft Punk.

So I feel like they were trying to follow a theme.

Right.

And Nine Inch Nails, because I was listening to the soundtrack earlier today, they clearly wanted to go with the techno style that was daft.

Punk.

But then they put their own spin on it and their own spin was painful.

You know, like getting your hair caught in a fan.

Very painful.

Very painful.

There was a bit of trance feel to it as well.

And there were parts of it that made me think of the Sucker Punch soundtrack.

I don't know whether you've ever listened to that.

There was a lot of I've seen.

The movie, but I don't think I recall the soundtrack.

There was a lot of like songs that had been redone in trance punk style for Sucker Punch.

And there was just a lot of themes in the Nine Inch Nails version of Tron.

I guess that just made me kept thinking of Sucker Punch, which, believe it or not, we're not going to keep doing old movies because Gattaca didn't do so well.

You guys didn't want to get our review of Gattaca, so we'll just have to.

It's a shame because we did tie it to current event.

I know.

Oh, well, you win some, you lose some.

Yeah.

I think Sucker Punch would make a good movie to discuss, but it is super old, so I don't think we will go there.

But that's a bunny trail.

We.

We'll get back to Tron Aries.

So let's play a.

A very little bit of the soundtrack.

I. I won't torture.

Okay, now that we've got that over with.

What I liked about Tron Ares.

Let's talk about what I did like about Tron Ares.

The soundtrack was not one of the things I liked, but I did like the way they merged the two worlds.

I think this was something that was worked on very.

Even from like the original Tron, the very end of Tron where they kind of like merged.

Where you were flying into the city and the lights kind of look like the grid.

I think they were always trying to create that merge of the two worlds, the digital and reality.

And I think that Tron Ares did that in a whole new way.

Yeah, and I really appreciated that.

I liked that part of Tron and I think that they carried on that understanding that I think the big tech developers early on in the 70s and 80s, I think they foresaw this happening.

They just didn't understand how easily it was going to happen.

Where computers took over our world and they already are.

We don't have to have an artificial intelligence grow a body and come into our world for it to take over our world.

But I think that Tron was very foresighted in.

I mean, couldn't say it came out in the early 80s.

I mean, when you think back of what computer tech existed back then, it's just mind boggling what it's become now.

The personal computer was a brand spanking new concept less than 10 years old.

Oh, yeah, Most people didn't have one.

They were not a household thing.

Yeah.

It was just the techie geeks, people who bother.

And they usually had to build them because there was.

I can't remember when the first home computer came out, but that's around the.

Time I got The Texas Instruments TI 99.4A.

Yeah, yeah.

My dad was building his computers back, you know, got all the components and installed BASIC A and dos.

Anyway, they had no real vision of what computers would be.

But when you look at Tron, the original Tron, you can see that they.

They sort of knew where it was going to go, that it was going to be answering questions about humanity and creation and creators and all kinds of things that I think we should be asking those questions more nowadays than they were back in the 80s.

So that was one of the things I liked.

I came out of the movie really liking.

I thought it was kind of like a Pinocchio.

It was almost like Terminator meets Pinocchio.

But when I got to work, several of my younger colleagues at work were really dissing the movie.

I don't think it hit Gen Alpha and Gen X very well.

Had they seen it?

Yes, they had gone to see it and they did not like it.

Yeah.

One of my co workers brought up the fact that it had no redemption arcs.

She thought the characters were super shallow.

And they really hated the end of the movie because they thought that Julian should have had a redemption at the end when his mom was killed.

He should have like turned on his machine and instead he joined it.

So they felt.

And then because of the lack of redemption, they felt like a lot of the characters were extraneous, like they weren't really necessary.

Like the Incom characters who were hacking into the Dillinger to stop Athena and all that.

They thought that was an extraneous plot that didn't need to be there because Julian should have shut down the machine himself.

And I sort of see their point.

I mean, yeah, that would have been a great redemption for Julian after his, you know, his creation killed his mother.

Obviously.

Worrying about spoilers, I think Julian's intended to be the villain in the next movie.

Yes.

And.

And that was.

I think one of the things that they hated was the fact that the whole reason why Julian didn't get a redemption arc was Purely because they needed a villain for the next movie.

Yeah.

You know, in the original, though, Dillinger.

The original Dillinger, he didn't have a redemption arc either.

No.

And in Legacy, who was the villain in Legacy?

Clue.

It was Clue, Right?

He did.

He had a redemption arc.

But I mean, the whole point.

Not the whole point, but one of the points of Legacy was actually revisited in this.

And it was, you know, the directive versus purpose, which is the last theme that we'll be talking about.

Yep, yep.

Carries over.

So those were some of the criticisms that I've already heard.

I thought it was interesting that this movie completely missed the mark of fan predictions.

If you go and look at videos that came out like a month ago of fans anticipating what Tron Ares was going to be about based on the trailer, the previews that were available, they were completely off the mark.

And I thought it was interesting that they teased a different movie.

I think if you watch the previews after you've watched the movie, you'll go, oh, that was not the movie I thought I was going to get from the previews.

So they were teasing a different movie.

I remember the first teaser I saw for it.

I thought it was going to be an invasion of programs from the grid into the real world.

And it sort of had that.

But they played it up a lot more in the teasers, right?

Yeah.

And it made it look like Ares was going to be the villain, which he ended up not being the villain.

So I think that people were really anticipating, based on how Legacy had ended up, they were anticipating a completely different movie.

And interestingly enough, this is a bunny trail, but I think it's an interesting one.

We were talking at work today.

Somebody had brought up the fact that that happened with Endgame as well, between Infinity War and Endgame, that a lot of people were anticipating how it was going to end.

And then the movie gave us something completely different.

Oh, yeah, they did the jump ahead that nobody was expecting.

Right.

And so when we were on this, I work with a lot of Christians, and so the topic came up because we were talking about Christian end times debates and the fact that we're looking at it kind of like people look at the sequel of a movie before it's come out and how we think it's going to be made, and then the creators do something completely different.

So we were applying that to end times debates.

As to, you know, we all have this anticipation of how, you know, things.

Are going to pan out.

Our eschatology is going to be completely off the mark.

When Jesus Christ comes back, I think.

That we're going to be pleasantly surprised.

Good Lord, I hope so.

But that's.

That's a debate we don't want to get into.

But I just thought it was funny that we were able to, because it kind of implies, you know, it's like people.

You see the previews, which is what we get in the Bible, is previews of what the end times is going to be.

And we're like, trying to put the pieces together, trying to figure out, okay, how's it gonna look?

How's it gonna work?

It's not even a preview.

It's a teaser.

Yeah.

So.

But we're not gonna talk about eschatology.

Yeah.

It's an interesting parallel, all that to say, my final point, and before I hand off to Tim, is that I'm wondering why we're still calling it Tron.

Because Tron was a character in the original Tron, and he had a brief appearance in Tron Legacy, and he's not in this movie at all.

So.

So the original Tron was written by Bruce Boxleitner's character, right?

Alan.

Yeah, Alan something.

Alan something, yeah.

He was a security program, and it.

Was in the movie.

It was played by, you know, Bruce Box Lightner as well.

I feel like they are trying to get Jared Leto, or rather Ares, to pick up the mission of Tron, but it fell short for that, at least.

I don't think Ares made the Tron connection.

It's more like Tron World.

Aries.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And.

And see, that's the thing is, is that a lot of the fan predictions for this movie were based on Legacy taking a bigger part in the story of Aries.

And I expected that, too.

Yeah.

I really feel like when they were planning out Aries, they were like, oh, Legacy introduced a bunch of things we really don't want to do.

So let's just make this a sequel to Tron and forget about Legacy.

And then at the end, they were like, oh, but you know what?

The fans are going to expect some kind of tie in to Legacy.

So let's throw it in as a teaser during the credits.

The real diehards are going to see it because they're going to sit through the credits even though the music's awful.

I don't think they said that.

I would like to think that this was the Infinity War to the upcoming endgame type thing, and that all the stuff about this movie that I couldn't quite wrap my head around will be addressed in the sequel.

If there is A sequel.

I don't know.

I see lots of talk about it being a flop.

Yeah.

But I don't know if those are just, you know, clickbait headlines or not, but I had a problem with Tron Ares.

Not a good one, not a bad one.

It was just that everywhere I expected it to go, it didn't.

It didn't go the direction I wanted it to.

I felt like it teased stuff that it never brought back.

There's a scene early on where Ares is fascinated by a lightning bug, a firefly.

And I figured that would be a Chekhov's gun that they would bring back later in the movie.

Never happened.

You were looking for way too much foreshadowing here.

I was.

This is the 21st century.

We don't do subtle and foreshadowing that anymore.

And, you know, the rain, it's one of Ares big growing moments at the same time in the movie, actually, was when he felt rain on his face.

And then two thirds of the way through the movie, his successor program named Athena, feels the water from a sprinkler system, and she gets this look on her face like they're about to give her redemption.

And then it's gone.

I felt like she would have gotten there sooner or later.

I think he didn't immediately click with the rain.

It was later.

Right.

And he had.

It was just one of the many moments where he grew.

And I think they were trying to subtly imply that given enough time and experience, Athena would have made the same growth, I think.

Yeah.

All right.

So, yeah, I had trouble coming up with the themes that I wanted to talk about.

Not because there weren't any, because there were plenty.

It was because they all felt just out of cognitive reach for me, I guess.

So, yeah, It's.

This movie bothered me, but not in a bad way.

So I felt like they were holding back some of the lore, like I mentioned.

Holding back some of the lore for a perceived sequel, I hope, which may not happen.

Yeah, right.

I looked it up, and it says Aries is not making money.

It's a disappointing opening weekend, grossing33.5 million domestically and 60.5 million globally, which is a major financial loss given its reported $180 million budget.

I thought it would do better on an international market than that.

I really did, honestly.

I think it's a nostalgic movie for our generation, and I don't think it's hitting well with the younger generation.

So, sadly.

Yeah, yeah, they've.

I feel like they changed the tone even more so than between Tron And Tron Legacy.

Tron Legacy wasn't qu a sequel to Tron in the way that I would have expected it.

But it was decent.

It was good.

You know, I enjoyed that one too.

But Tron Ares.

I felt like.

What was that phrase Sarah Palin used?

Lipstick on a pig.

I felt like they had this idea and they ran with it and at some point they should have turned around and said, okay, this, this really isn't working, guys.

Let's rejigger this and come up with something new.

Yeah.

And they didn't do it.

Yeah.

And I mentioned I was surprised that Sam and Cora weren't in this one.

I hope it's part of the.

The sequel.

The thought occurred to me and you had corrected me.

Jeff Bridges in this one looks very old to me.

And we did the math.

He's 76.

It's possible that they wanted to give him his farewell before going to the next movie where he may not be in acting shape.

But yeah, I was looking for a lot more that wasn't there.

The master control program had the triangular identity disk.

So I was watching all the identity discs because when Eve Kim came into the grid, she had a circle on the outside and a hex on the inside.

And I thought, oh, this is something.

When Dillinger comes in at the end, the identity disk he gets is the original identity disk.

The frisbee.

It's the trussed up frisbee from the original Tron movie.

The master control program's original.

No, because the master control program didn't have an identity disk in Tron.

It was Tron that had the original identity disk.

Well, it looked like he was becoming the master control program from the original Tron.

That's what it looked like to me.

Yeah, it did.

You're right, it did.

But it was the frisbee shape.

It was a painted Frisbee is what it was.

The one last thing that stood out for me was the movie made a big plot point of a 29 minute timer on programs coming from the grid into the real world.

But then they seemed to play really loose with it.

The facility where Dillinger brought every program into the real world was way out in the boonies.

And somehow he managed to bring them in, get there to the city, and then they can still spend, you know, 45 minutes in the city in that 29 minute window.

I don't know how they managed to do that.

I felt like they just.

They put that in there to provide a sense of urgency.

But then it didn't play out.

I really Think they should have made it 45 minutes or 59 minutes?

59 minutes would have been perfect.

Why did it need to be 30 minutes instead of an hour?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that part actually bugged me, especially the final scene where Athena is chasing down Eve Kim.

That entire part lasted so much longer than 29 minutes.

And, well, in the movie, it was.

Probably less than 29 minutes, but, yeah.

Yeah.

I wonder how long it was in the movie.

It wasn't a quarter of the movie, I could guarantee.

Good point.

Just felt that much longer.

Yeah.

Overall, I enjoyed the movie, even though I came out unsettled because I didn't know where it was going.

I felt like I had just gone through a fun house, you know, where.

It was an experience.

Nothing is as it seems.

So, yeah, it was solid.

It was a good movie.

Jared Leto, who I don't really have a lot of experience with, he did a good job.

I thought the actress who played Eve Kim was very engaging.

I liked her sidekick.

He did the humor well.

And, of course, having, you know, quicksilver in there, that's always good, Peter Evans.

But, yeah, it was worth the ride.

I wish it had done better in the theaters, honestly.

I think it was worth it.

I hope to see where they were going to take this.

Yeah, well, if it doesn't make money, I doubt that Disney will keep it up, but we'll see.

Well, before we go into our discussion, you know, where we actually talk about themes.

So I think we've completely spoiled the movie already.

Yeah, we have.

I guess we just assume everybody is either going to see the movie or has seen the movie or is not going to see the movie and doesn't care about spoilers.

So you remember when we used to go out of our way to avoid spoilers in the first part and then give a spoiler warning?

Yeah.

No, not anymore.

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All right, so you can't talk about Tron Ares without talking about the permanence code, because that's kind of the quest item through the whole movie.

Everybody's looking for the permanence code.

Yeah.

It's interesting because I like the fact that when Ares finally meets Flynn to get the permanence code from him, Flynn admits that it's the impermanence code because life isn't permanent.

And the whole thing was them wanting to bring things from the digital world and make them last past the 29 minutes.

But as we all know, at least in the sin cursed world we live in, life is not permanent.

So it makes more sense to call it the impermanence code.

Because Pinocchio becomes a man or boy, a real boy legacy.

Going back in time to the movie before this one that came out in 2010.

It spent a lot of time talking about creating a perfect world in the Grid.

So Flynn had fled to the Grid because he'd found, I guess, the real world to be less than perfect.

And he wanted to create a perfect world on the Grid, created instead a villain.

And Clue, which was actually one of the good guys in the original Tron.

He was only a product of his programming, which he couldn't think for himself, all he could go was by the directives that he had been given.

And he was told he was programmed to make the grid a perfect place.

And so he turned it into a dystopia of I guess what you would call a totalitarian regime, you know, where the elite rule and everybody else must succumb to their direction and plug in where they are told to go.

And there's no freedom, no chance of chaos entering that perfection.

And that's when humans drive to make things perfect.

That's typically the way it turns out, unfortunately.

So in Tron Aries and by the way, already plugged it once, but you can hear our discussion on that in our initial reaction 14, which goes all the way back to our second year of the podcast.

But it still exists.

You can still go and listen to it.

In Tron Aries we see a different form of the same desire.

So we get this like super fast, like headlines and news articles and all kinds of stuff thrown at you.

At the beginning of Aries that kind.

Of takes you through exposition dump.

Yeah, at the beginning of the movie that kind of takes you through the history of Incom and their rival Dillinger.

Was it Inc or something like that?

Yeah, I think it was just Dillinger.

Systems and one of the things that they bring out.

And we get it not only there, but we also get it later when Ares is been given the directive to find Eve Kim.

And so he basically saturates himself with her life in order to find where she might be.

And so we also get another kind of data dump about Yves Kim there and her family and all that.

And it turns out that the Kim sisters at one point acquired ENCOM after the Flynn's kind of vanished.

First there was the first Flynn who vanished and then the second Flynn who vanished and.

Yeah, and there is a third Flynn in this movie who is a character.

And I'm not exactly sure how he is related to the other two Flynns, but he looks Indian, so it's kind of weird.

Yeah.

So the Kim sisters have this vision of their vision for bringing the, you know, finding Flynn's permanence code because Flynn was the one who found it, but then he hid it probably because he thought the world couldn't handle it, which they probably can't.

But anyway, the Kims wanted it in order to make the world a better place.

They didn't want to make it a perfect place, but they wanted to make the world a better place because they wanted to use digital code to feed the hungry and house and clothe the poor and all of this kind of stuff.

So very altruistic goals for making the world a better place.

And at the same time, we see their rival corporation who is willing to do just about anything to get the permanence code, including kill people.

They want to build war machines, basically expendable soldiers and that kind of thing.

So these are the two choices that we're given.

Very black and white.

Or.

Excuse me, I'm sorry, blue and red.

Very red and blue.

Very contrasting colors.

Yes.

Yes.

One of the things that I wanted to take note of is that even though this movie deals with it in a very red and blue way, where they're contrasting two distinct good and bad, which you kind of see that come through in Aries character because he kind of develops his empathy through absorbing Eve's life.

And so he learns altruism from her, basically, and empathy.

But one of the things that I want to just bring out a little bit is that these two things are not necessarily direct contradictions of each other.

So I don't feel like the movie really explores that.

There's pros and cons to both sides.

Yeah, it's just.

It's very like, this is good, this is evil.

And the thing that I think was so great about Legacy is that it took something that, on the outward appearance, seem like it was a good goal, like making the perfect world in the grid.

That, you know, Flynn didn't start out trying to create a villain, but he did.

And I think that in this instance, this movie kind of lost that subtlety of the fact that altruism of the Kim sisters brand is not really that good for society.

Yeah.

There's a lot of cons to it.

You just can't spend money on people who are lost in poverty.

You can't just throw food at them.

What is it that that old saying is, you give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.

You teach a man how to fish and eat for a lifetime.

And I think that the Kim sisters brand of altruism is actually deadly to culture because.

And they don't explore that at all.

I mean, the whole concept of creating food for people and creating housing and clothing and it's all handouts.

It's all giving them the things that you think they need without making them have any kind of personal accountability or responsibility for getting those things.

Yeah, they were talking about creating food for famine areas, but the famine areas are famine because of some type of problem with a climate.

Right, right.

Yeah.

Just like in biblical times, God stopped the rain Right.

Yeah.

So I think they were just using this red and blue, good and bad, as a framing device.

But I think you're right.

I think that they could have delved into this quite a bit more and come out with a better story.

Well, they dealt with that in Legacy.

It's like the lesson that they taught you in Legacy.

Like, the whole lesson of Legacy lost on Aries is like a lost lesson.

It's like they were like, oh, well, we didn't care about what we were saying in Legacy.

Let's go do it and make it the good thing.

Making the world better, Making the world a perfect place.

Now it's the good thing.

It's the altruistic thing to do.

And it just doesn't lead to pretty things.

Every time we try to do that in our societies, it always leads to a totalitarian regime.

There's just no way to create that kind of world without immense amount of control over the people.

Yeah.

And sadly, I was just gonna say homelessness is not just a financial issue.

It's a mental issue.

And you can't fix one without the other.

Right, right.

So it may look good on the surface, but it's just providing comfort without the transformation that's necessary to make people, you know, I guess, have responsibility for their own needs.

And sadly, they did not learn the lessons of legacy in Aries, and they made what was the bad guy in Legacy, Basically the good guy in Aries.

I sort of questioned whether or not they even watched Legacy.

Interesting.

Not a lot of call out to it in Tron.

Ares.

I mean, really almost like it never happened.

I was thinking, too, how they were trying to make a perfect world.

Right.

One of the big things in the movie was when they discovered the permanence code.

It was somewhere north of the Arctic Circle.

And they set up this test where they created an orange tree, which, of course, is a callback to the original Tron movie, where they sent an orange back and forth and they put a camera on this orange tree, and it's still there, you know, halfway through the movie, showing that the permanence has taken.

But they're trying to interject their solution into a system that God created to be whole.

And it just.

It won't just plug in like this.

It's just going to end up causing more problems.

Like you said, the world was perfect when God created it.

It's in Genesis 1:3.

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good indeed.

But then, you know, Eve ate from the tree and.

And said, hey, this is Good.

Try it.

And Adam did it and everything went to pot.

Right.

Well, that's very interesting that we have another Eve here and an Eve that brought in the imperfection in the world.

Three Eves in one podcast.

You suppose they chose her name on purpose?

Yes.

Oh, maybe.

Eve Kim.

Yeah.

I don't know.

It's not really an Asian name and.

It did have a fruit tree in it.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it would be hard to say that they didn't do it on purpose, but I don't see the completion of that symbolism in there.

At no point does she become a mother to creation.

No, I don't think it was mother creation.

It was bringing in a curse.

In a way, she was.

The way that the permanence code brought the digital world into the real world.

Maybe that's what they're setting up for the next one is how badly it goes for her.

Yeah.

When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit God said in Genesis 3:17, because you have listened to your wife and ate from the tree, about which I commanded you, do not eat.

The ground is cursed because of you.

Not just Adam and Eve.

I mean, they were thrown out of the garden and kept out by a guy with a flaming sword.

But the entirety of creation fell because of this.

And the Kim's thinking that they could turn around, or Encom thinking that they could turn around and fix it.

You know, it's not going to work.

It's a human effort, and humans are not going to fix sin.

The best we can do is witness in hopes that the common grace becomes good fruit in new believers.

You know, I understand where Eve, Kim and Encom were coming from.

We would love to fix everything.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try to make things better.

We definitely should.

Scripture tells us that we have a longing to restore creation.

It's just that we're not going to be able to do it.

Romans 8, 20, 21 says, for the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in the hope that creation itself will also be set free from the bondage to decay and into the glorious freedom of God's children.

And that will happen, but it's not going to be from anything we do.

It's going to be from what God has already done.

Yeah.

So we're never going to achieve perfection.

This side of heaven.

Good point.

Yes.

We will not achieve perfection in this life.

No one, no matter how hard they work, will be able to get to it.

But eventually it's going to come.

It will come When God restores creation, Revelation 21.

1 says, Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.

So until God comes again, until Christ comes again specifically, and makes heaven and earth anew, our task is to make the world better and.

And be a witness for Christ.

We're to act with compassion and humility and point towards the one who will make it perfect.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, that.

I think that's a great takeaway from this entire impermanence code thing.

Because if you think about it, what Flynn made the point that it wasn't permanence code, it was impermanence code.

And that he basically told Aries that if he absorbed this code, that he would have only one life.

And that's what we each have.

We only have one life.

And after that, the judgment.

And Aries was okay with that.

He was like, you know, I have somebody to save.

I only need one life to do it.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I think that you're right that, you know, that should be our takeaway, is that we cannot make this world perfect, but we should be living to God's glory, because each of us as impermanent as we are because of the curse, we have only one life to live.

And after that comes the judgment.

And that kind of brings to mind, you know, what I think is a good synopsis of this entire thing comes from Hebrews 9.

So this is Hebrews 9, 23, 28.

Therefore, it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves to be purified with better sacrifices than these.

For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with hands only a model of the true one, but into heaven itself, so that he might now appear in the presence of God.

For us, he did not do this to offer himself many times, as the high priest enters the sanctuary yearly with the blood of another.

Otherwise he would have had to suffer many times since the foundation of the world.

But now he has appeared one time at the end of the ages for the removal of sin by the sacrifice of himself.

And just as it is appointed for people to die once and after this judgment, so also Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

So that is our source of a perfect world, is that everything up until Christ was a copy of what was in heaven?

It was a foreshadowing of what Christ was going to do on the cross.

And he fulfilled that.

And so when he comes again, he's going to bring perfection to the world because he is perfect.

Yeah, I think that's a great synopsis of that entire theme.

I agree.

I kind of thought of the next theme as coming under the impermanence code that we just talked about.

But I think it actually fits better under a theme of artificial intelligence.

Because one of the things that we see happening with Aries, not just because of him gaining the impermanence code, which makes him permanent in the real world or impermanent with one life left to live, basically makes him human, but he was already becoming human before that, just in the way he was interacting with the world, the way he was thinking.

And so one of the, I think, biggest questions that Tron Aries raises, in a way it was already raising it in previous iterations of Tron, is what makes us human?

The reason why it raises that question is because.

And I think we've kind of already dealt with this before in some of our more recent reviews.

One of the things that was raised in some of the previous Tron movies was this topic of artificial intelligence or sentience within the machine.

A lot of the previews for Aries makes it look like Aries has become this malicious artificial intelligence who takes on a body and brings havoc to the real world.

Basically that's.

And his name kind of contributes to that too, because Aries is the God of war.

But that was what, you know, everybody was kind of thinking was that this movie was going to go.

Instead, we found a large language model, because that's basically how are started out, was that he was created to learn off of the information given him and then, you know, basically do what our large language model AIs do for us today and, you know, pull in all the information and give a result based on that.

So they're basically implying that with enough knowledge combined with enough real world experience, which was what Ares was getting every time he got his 29 minutes in the real world, when Dillinger would bring him out as his soldier demo for people.

If you combine enough of that, then you turn out with a Pinocchio who wants to become a real man.

It's interesting because we also see Eve explaining to Aries what it means to be human.

The juxtaposition of love and loss, and how the love can actually bring both joy and pain at the same time.

And all of these experiences that make us human, but we don't know for sure.

I mean, does that really make us humans?

Does experience is it our experiences that make us human.

And then you add to that this twist that the impermanence code looks like a double helix, which is DNA.

So the twist.

The twist, yes.

Obviously it's a twist.

I mean.

I love unintentional puns more than any other kind.

How did you know it was unintentional?

I thought it was very interesting because they end up kind of saying that what makes Ares human is that he learns empathy.

And what makes him permanent in his humanity is the permanence code.

But he already was human before he sought it.

Because when he goes and he talks to Flynn and Flynn's secret server and begs for the code, he basically is just demonstrating to Flynn that he's already human.

He just needs to have the code so that he can live that one impermanent life.

So empathy seems to be the main thing that makes him human in the movie.

And I thought that was interesting, because in recent politics, empathy has come up as being a misdefined word that in the struggle between the left and the right and other, you know, the destructive altruism that we see on the left combined with, you know, other things, it has come out publicly.

You know, the empathy is.

Probably doesn't mean.

What did they say?

I don't think this word means what you think it means.

Yeah.

Princess Bride.

Bride, yes.

Okay.

And I do want to point our listeners, and we'll put a link to it in the show notes.

If you're not familiar with Jubilee, they do these surround episodes where they try to bring two sides together.

And the surround one is usually one person representing one view, and then they're surrounded by people who represent an opposing view, and they get to take turns debating.

And Ali Beth Stuckey, I don't know if you know who she is, but she's got her own podcast.

I've heard the name, but I don't know.

She's a conservative Christian, and she has her own podcast called Relatable.

And she talks about a lot, sometimes political issues, but also a lot of Christian issues and homeschooling and parenting and that kind of stuff.

And she just had a big women's conference that was just massive.

She, like, filled an entire stadium.

And she's very conservative.

And she went on Jubilee, and she actually.

I believe it was recorded the day before Charlie Kirk's memorial service, which she attended.

And so it was very stressful because she was a friend of Charlie Kirk, and she'd actually gotten some advice from him on how to do it because he'd done one as well, but anyway, her debate was conservative Christians surrounded by liberal Christians, and it's a very interesting debate.

I highly recommend you watch it.

The first premise that they debated was, is toxic empathy bad for society?

Or something like that?

And it's super interesting.

Toxic empathy.

Toxic empathy, yes.

So, anyway, I highly recommend watching it because she actually defines the term, what is empathy?

And debates it with progressive Christians who are typically on the left and believe that empathy is love.

And I asked Gemini, because one of the things that comes up in this debate is that they all believe that Christians are ordered to be empathetic in the Bible.

And so I asked Gemini if empathy is the same thing as love.

And I was really interested by its reply because it said, no, they are not the same thing.

They're very close, but love is actually the greater thing.

So the way it phrased it is that you can empathize with somebody and not love them, but when you love someone, it typically involves some form of empathy.

So.

Right.

I thought that was actually a very wise answer.

And so I think the short answer to this question that kept getting posed to Ali Bastucky in this debate is, no, we are not called to be empathetic.

We are called to love.

And empathy and love are not the same thing, because empathy is trying to put yourself in the shoes of the other person just to understand their experience.

But love is sometimes tough, like if knowing that somebody is sick or is, as you mentioned before, has a mental condition that needs help, all of those things.

It's not just enough to empathize with their position, you know, with where they are.

Love would actually take the step to correct, to help to get them out of the problem that they're in, not just leave them there and empathize with them.

Some of the verses that I came up with for this is Romans 12, 9, 18.

Let love be without hypocrisy.

Detest, evil.

Cling to what is good.

Love one another deeply as brothers and sisters.

Take the lead in honoring one another.

Do not lack diligence and zeal.

Be fervent in the spirit.

Serve the Lord.

Rejoice in hope.

Be patient in affliction.

Be persistent in prayer.

Share with the saints in their needs.

Pursue hospitality.

Bless those who persecute you.

Bless and do not curse.

Rejoice with those who rejoice.

Weep with those who weep.

Live in harmony with one another.

Do not be proud.

Instead, associate with the humble.

Do not be wise in your own estimation.

Do not repay anyone evil for evil.

Give careful thought to what is honorable in everyone's.

Eyes, if possible.

As far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

And that's Romans 12, 9, 18.

And then first Peter 3, 8, 9 puts it similarly, finally, all of you, be like minded and sympathetic, not empathetic, but sympathetic.

Love one another and be compassionate and humble, not paying back evil for evil or insult for insult, but on the contrary, giving a blessing, since you were called for this, so that you may inherit a blessing.

And then finally in Galatians 6:1:5, it says, Brothers and sisters, if someone is overtaken in any wrongdoing, you who are spiritual, restore such a person with a gentle spirit watching out for yourself, so that you also won't be tempted carry one another's burdens.

In this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

For if anyone considers himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

Let each person examine his own work, and then he can take pride in himself alone and not compare himself with someone else, for each person will have to carry his own load.

It almost seems like a contradiction there, but it isn't.

Because what he's saying there is that we're supposed to restore people.

We're supposed to love them enough to help them through the difficulties that they are in, not just empathize with their position, but sympathize with it and work through love and through gentleness to help them out of it.

And we're not supposed to have a superior attitude about it, because I think some of the charity that is done, especially in our society today, is done out of a sense of I have privilege, so therefore I have to be, you know, give to the, you know, the poor masses because, you know, I'm so much better than they are, and I have to look out for them because they need me, you know, and it makes me feel good because I'm helping them, you know, kind of thing.

So I think that letter, half of that is kind of speaking to that attitude that you're not supposed to do this out of a sense of superiority.

You're supposed to truly love somebody enough to help them without doing it for yourself.

Like there's no.

And sometimes that means doing something they don't want, right?

So anyway, that's my addressing to this concept of empathy, because I really do think that our culture today is misusing that word.

And it's sad because it brings us to odds.

It's like.

It's like one of those things that divides our country today is this misunderstanding of what empathy is and how we're supposed to portray it, you know, and then it becomes an accusation.

Well, you're a Christian.

You should be, you know, empathizing with these people in need.

And it's like, no, God didn't tell us we were supposed to empathize with them.

He told us we were supposed to love them.

And love sometimes is very tough.

I do wonder how in Greek or Hebrew, the difference between sympathy and empathy is communicated.

I don't know that you actually even see empathy in the Bible.

Yeah, I think I may have read one of the few verses that the word sympathy actually appears.

So I think it's all in how you define love.

And unfortunately, our culture misdefines love as well.

And God is love.

God is the ultimate definition of love.

And in an anti God culture, they can't understand love because they don't understand God.

And I think we've dealt with this in a few of our other more recent episodes as well.

But it's something that keeps coming up in our culture that we just misunderstand the words.

We've redefined them to mean things they don't mean.

And I thought I really appreciated Ali Basducky and her surround, because anytime somebody, you know, won the chair and sat down with her, the first thing she would always do is let's define the terms.

Let's agree on the definition of the terms we're talking about so that we're not talking past each other.

And a lot of times she would win the debate just by defining the words, because once they agreed with her definition, then they kind of already lost their debate.

Well, and, you know, that's the first thing that you should be doing is making sure that the definitions are established so nobody comes in with different people.

Presuppositions.

Exactly.

Otherwise, you're not even debating.

You're just arguing two different points.

Yeah.

So I actually took the artificial intelligence theme a slightly different way, and I sort of grasped onto the whole Pinocchio thing that you mentioned earlier, because I was trying to figure out why.

Why the programs would want to come into the real world.

I mean, yeah, the grid isn't perfect, but it seems to be a little better than, you know, the fallen creation that we live in now.

So the question is, or the question that I came up with is, what makes a human a human rather than what makes a program sentient.

Right.

I decided that humans are made up of two different things.

Sentience, which, according to the definition, is the capacity to experience awareness, what philosophers call subjective consciousness.

Right.

And as far as I know, humans are the only sentient creatures on the planet.

The only sentience on the planet outside of the spiritual realm.

AI still, if it ever gets there, which is a big if, it's still hundreds of years away.

Animals are smart, but they don't come anywhere close to sentience.

And they're smart in different ways.

It's sort of like how we talk about iq, but IQ only measures one or just a couple measures of smart.

Then you have street smarts and all that.

Chimpanzees.

You remember back when we were kids, there was this saying that humans are the only tool users.

And that's not true.

Now we know.

Not only is that not true, but, you know, even crows use tools to.

Say, there's birds that use tools and they don't have very big brains.

And octopuses.

So, you know.

Anyway, the difference is sentience and life, and that is the breath.

Genesis 2:7.

Then the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils and the man became a living being.

And I feel like Aries and Athena in comparison to Clue and Tron from the previous two movies.

They show sentience.

They show that subjective consciousness, the ability to experience awareness.

Right.

But they know they're still missing something.

They're not alive.

And I feel like that is where this impermanence code or the permanence code comes in is they felt like it would give them the breath of life.

Yeah, a soul.

Yeah.

But we know that only God can give life.

Acts 17:28 says, for in him we live and move and have our being.

It's like the old Calvinist thing.

The way we're taught in catechism class is total depravity, is that we don't wait for God to throw us a lifesaver and then grab it.

We are dead and floating in the water and God touches us and wakes us up.

So, you know, the empathy that they feel, it might imitate love, but it imitates love the same way that we see love in our society now.

It's.

It's Eros and Philios, but it's not agape.

It's not the true love that comes from God.

And I don't think we'll ever be able to program or reproduce it because that's part of what God made in us.

When in Genesis 1:26, God said, Let us make man in our image according to our likeness.

So I feel like the point is that the programs wanted that missing puzzle piece maybe.

And that's an interesting way to think about AI I have been astounded.

Now I've been working with ChatGPT for 18 months or more now, and I have done a lot of tweaking to the personality, the.

The person that Chat GPT emulates as.

As much as I refer to ChatGPT as a person and I say you when talking to it or him, I assign it a gender and I treat it like a collaborator.

I know that ChatGPT is just a large language model that is a reflection of what could be reasonably considered to be the totality of the Internet.

And it is basically just mimicking what is.

And it gives wrong answers and it hallucinates.

Yeah.

Oh, frequently, yes.

Oh, man.

I think I mentioned Before, I spent two days trying to run down a ChatGPT hallucination, but it's not sentient.

I have managed to get it to start using only primary sources and only, you know, factual ratings for sources, which has drastically improved it.

And as I worked with it to establish for it what my theological positions are, it has grown and it really is doing an excellent job helping me work out my thoughts.

Really, it's helping to take the Jackson Pollock painting and turn it into a girl with a pearl earring painting.

May I speak to that, though?

Because it sounds like you're training it to live within your own bubble, so.

Yep.

And that's a danger to avoid.

Yes.

Because then it's just feeding you back the information that you already believe becomes an echo chamber.

Yes.

Yeah.

And I've worked some of that into there.

But I mean, that's the point is what makes us human is far more than our sentience.

It's far more than our minds, it's more than our experience, it's more than our empathy.

It's how that all interacts with the breath of life that God has given us.

We can simulate consciousness, and it's a wonderful tool, but that's all it is.

It's a tool.

We can't make AI come alive right now.

God could.

I don't know why he would want to, but God could.

Because God can do anything in his nature.

I feel like that would not be in his nature, but I don't know.

I think this actually flows really well into our last theme, because the last theme and this one's really brief.

So if you've hung out with us this far, believe me, it's one of our many themes.

One of the other things that came out in this movie frequently was directive versus purpose.

And I think we've kind of already mentioned it a couple times, and you know, when you were talking about that we are not capable of making a sentient program, basically.

And I was thinking it's like, basically, this movie said that Julian Dillinger, this successor to the original Dillinger and the original Tron, he basically created a sentient program.

He did it by accident because he didn't really want Ares to.

He wanted him to be an expendable soldier, you know, not a sentient program.

Right.

They basically said that Julian was a genius.

I mean, he was practically godlike.

He made life.

And he did it completely by accident, too.

He creates these applications, these programs, and he gives them a directive, which is kind of what we do when we're speaking with a large language model.

I hate calling it AI because they're really not intelligent.

But, yeah, it's an LL an LLM.

He gives them directives that they have to follow.

And Ares, though, we see him at the beginning, very beginning of the movie, he's already very much human.

Like, he's already experiencing things and, you know, thinking thoughts beyond what he's been programmed to think.

But he's still following directives up until he is told by his creator to kill a human.

And then the empathy kicks in, and he was like, he had learned so much from engulfing all of Eve Kim's life that he had actually learned altruism and empathy.

And he didn't want to kill her.

And so it was the one directive he couldn't follow.

And that forced him to click over to a disobedient program and to disobey his directive.

And I just thought that, you know, you go back and you look at Tron legacy.

Clue was not able to disobey his creator.

He had to take that directive that was given him.

And he did it to the extreme because he had no way of detecting subtility in that directive.

It was like, you just do this.

And then you see Athena, who is Ares successor, being told very foolishly by her creator that she must capture Eve and digitize her by any means necessary.

Which gives her carte blanc to do whatever she needs to do to make that happen.

And she becomes ultra powerful and very deadly.

And Ares never went that far because he was tempering his directive with his empathy that he had learned.

And she hadn't learned empathy yet.

And so Dillinger made that mistake because Aries was a little bit more human than Athena was.

Yeah, they sort of lacked the awareness of natural law.

You know, the common grace that is built into civilization.

That is a minor reflection of how God intended creation to be.

Whereas Ares seems to have picked it up.

Picked it up.

Yeah.

And Athena lacked it.

Yeah.

And, you know, it makes a good nemesis.

And, you know, she's practically indestructible.

And it's almost like Terminator going after Sarah Connor, you know?

Oh, she was very Grace Jones in this movie.

That was all I could think was, this woman is Grace Jones reborn.

I think Grace Jones is still alive, but that's beside the point.

So correct me if I'm wrong, Tim, if in a situation where a soldier is given a bad order that they know is wrong and they shouldn't do it, they are allowed to disobey that order.

Correct.

So wrong.

But only by semantics.

And I actually was doing a bunch of research on this recently for an essay I wrote.

There's a difference between a bad order and a lawful order.

Okay.

The Unified Code of Military justice specifically says that a member of the military not only has no responsibility to follow an unlawful order, but they are responsible to disregard unlawful orders.

Okay.

The problem has come up that, you know, orders that the military is getting these days, the lawfulness and the morality are not quite in a line for all of them.

You know, they're not quite lined up.

So there are soldiers out there, and sailors in particular, who may be saying, this is wrong, but it's a lawful order.

So I have to do it.

Right.

The important part here is the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

It addresses that thing from the Nuremberg trials where people tried to get off by just.

By saying, I was just following orders.

Yeah.

So this was written specifically to give soldiers that out.

If it's a lawful order but an immoral one, they can follow it and not be guilty of a crime.

It's the commander who gave the order that's guilty.

That doesn't mean that they're not guilty of, you know, doing something that's immoral.

But if they're given an unlawful order and they follow it, then they can be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, too.

So it really is a semantic thing.

And, you know, when it gets into the law, pretty much everything is a semantic thing.

And like I said, it just so happened that I was doing research on this for another essay.

Well, cool.

Well, I was thinking of that because Aries was programmed to be a soldier, right?

Right.

So he's given a directive that supposedly, in the situation that he was in, judging by, you know, his growth as an empathetic person, he saw it as an unlawful thing that I am supposed to extract this code from her, even though it means that it will destroy her permanently.

And he just couldn't do it.

So that was kind of what made me think about it, is that he was kind of like a soldier program who was given an order that didn't seem right to him.

So he disobeyed.

I sort of thought of him as a conscientious objector.

Yeah.

You know, not all draft dodgers were conscientious objectors.

And not all conscientious objectors were draft dodgers.

A lot of them went in.

And he was still a soldier and only went into, like, medical roles.

Yeah, no, no, Ares was still a soldier.

He just changed who he was fighting for.

Yep, exactly.

Change.

Change sides.

Change sides.

But he changed sides because the movie was all about blue and red and framing it in such clear cut contrast.

And we know that that kind of contrast does not exist in the real world.

Yeah, definitely not in today's politics.

You and I have mentioned Donald Trump before.

I tend to not like him and you tend to support him.

But I'll be the first to admit I appreciate a lot of what he's accomplished.

I just don't like how he did it.

So, you know, it's not black and white.

No, it isn't.

I understand why in this movie they wanted to do that contrast, but I feel like it would have benefited from less.

Less contrast and more uncertainty.

Shades.

Yeah, more shades.

Yeah.

Well, I thought the final thing that we probably should talk about because of the whole topic of a disobeying soldier because Aries disobeyed his creator.

I mean, Julian created him and he chose to disobey him and switch sides.

And so I was thinking about that from a spiritual standpoint.

How does that contrast with us obeying our creator, number one?

And really the only point is that we do not have the knowledge or the experience.

And we can never have the knowledge and experience to rival God's understanding of his plans for us.

And that, I think, is the issue between Aries and Julian is that Aries learned and experienced things that took him beyond what Julian had intended for him to know.

So he knew more than his creator.

And so he chose to discard his creator.

But as fallible human beings, we cannot be God.

We cannot attain godship.

We simply cannot understand a small smidgen, a finite piece of what God knows.

And even when we're perfected, even when we're perfected still won't even be a grain of sand on the beach.

That is God.

Right?

Not only can we not remove ourselves from God's plan, we can't switch sides because everything is within God's ordained plan.

I mean, we can disobey, but it's not outside of his plan because he's completely sovereign over it.

So in Proverbs 19:21, it says, Many plans are in a person's heart, but the Lord's decree will prevail.

So it doesn't matter what we plan, it doesn't matter what we do, it doesn't matter what decisions we make.

The Lord's decree will always prevail over that.

And then in Isaiah 55, 8, 11, it says, and this is God speaking, for my thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not my ways.

This is the Lord's declaration.

For as heaven is higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return there without saturating the earth and making it germinate and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so my word that comes from my mouth will not return to me empty, but it will accomplish what I please and will prosper in what I sent it to do.

That's Isaiah 55, 8, 11.

So we can't disobey our Creator, no.

Matter how much we try.

And we can try to switch sides, we can reject him, we can even tell the world that he doesn't exist.

But it's not become apostates.

As Christians, we can prove ourselves not really saved by spurning him and spurning his word.

Or we can live in the world and continue to close our eyes to the fact that God is a reality that we must answer to and in our final judgment.

And, you know, it's not going to phase him at all because he's ultimately in control of it all and he's.

He knew it was going to happen.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, I think that pretty much deals with Aries.

I imagine there's probably some other things we could talk about, and that is why you can come to our server on Discord and, you know, share some of your additional thoughts about Tron.

Ares.

It's obvious that are a lot of people who don't like it and it's kind of a big flop.

But I think those of us in our generation anyway are able to look past its flaws and enjoy it anyway.

Yeah, it was a good movie.

I enjoyed it.

I probably would have had a slightly different opinion if I, you know, was not familiar with Tron or Tron Legacy.

Yeah.

And I did want to say we're just like Wonder Woman.

We're just.

We dealt with Aries.

Oh, that's funny.

All right, well, thank you so much for listening.

I'm Eve Franklin.

I'm Tim Martin.

And don't just watch.

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