This is heavy conversation with Bruce and Jody, a podcast where we talk about being a big guy in today's world.

I'm Bruce.

And I'm Jody. Here we go. Here we go. Here we go.

All right. Here we go. All right. Here we go.

Here we go. Hey, Bruce, Jody, what's up?

Oh, man.

I'm.

I'm excited about today's topic because it really gets to the core of heavy conversation. And we haven't talked about. I don't feel like we've. We've talked about big and tall stuff, like, really dug into the industry recently, so.

Yeah, yeah, it's kind of. Yeah, it just kind of depends on what's been going on in the world. And this one kind of popped up and was kind of interesting to read about and.

Yeah. So every, you know, every season, there's some kind of fashion week thing. Well, men's fashion week takes place in Milan and Paris for their spring, summer, 25.

Yes.

Collections.

And you've all been watching all the runways, right?

Yes. I'm sure. I'm sure you've seen that.

Yeah, yeah.

So Vogue business actually did the hard work of putting together a report on the menswear size inclusivity of these fashion shows. And, folks, it ain't pretty.

No. Or it's not good.

Yeah. So it's. It's. Yeah, yeah, I guess if you put it that way. Yes. Very pretty. Not good.

Some are pretty.

Yes. So it's probably not surprising, considering when you think about extended size clothing and plus size clothing. Big and tall, whatever you want to call it, there's not a lot of representation in general.

Yeah.

Yet there are a lot of people that need to be represented.

It's like the majority of the population is plus size, but the percentage of people that are plus size in these shows is nothing anywhere. Anywhere near where it should be.

Right, right. And so this article on Vogue business, actual, real legit journalists went through, did their jobs. They. They looked into this, not just saying, hey, you know, we're watching these shows, and.

Right.

There aren't. You know, they really did the work. And so they say they specifically reached out to. They contacted each brand to verify their findings.

Yeah.

And, you know, the brands were given a certain amount of time to respond. And they say that out of 3099 looks across Milan and Paris, 98.5% were straight sized, which is under an EU 48. Now, you looked up the sizing.

I think it was a 30. That's a 38.

Okay, so a european 48 is a 38. What was it we were looking at? Earlier, that was like a 41. Was that like Axx?

That was a. That was the triple x chest.

Triple x.

Cause it was a chest 114 cm.

Okay. Right. And so for triple x. So I. For scale, I. I'm a 53 chest.

So I'm like, at least a 54.

So.

And now I normally measure my belly instead of my chest for that measurement. Cause I'm like, well, it needs to go around here.

That's a good trick.

Chest isn't as big.

Right.

The big part.

So, yeah, so, I mean, we wouldn't even. I don't. They don't even make anything in our sizes.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it's. It's. It's kind of tricky. There's a lot we could say around this as far as looking at, like, you know, what is. What are they considering plus size? What is plus size, really? You know?

Well, that, honestly, that was quite the eye opener. And just the way that they were like, oh, straight size. What they can. I don't know who is considering this plus size, but the plus size that they were counting is a. Only an xl. So they sort of. Was it EU 56 plus?

Yes. Yeah.

Anything above a 56.

Right. So they're saying 98.5% were straight size, which is under a EU 48. European 48, which is up from 90. 98.3% last season, says 1.3% of the models were mid size, which is a european 48, to 54, which is down 1.5% from last season. And then plus size, like you just said, is a 56 plus or over xl, made up 0.2% of the looks. So it's the same as the year before. Just three out of the 65 brands included at least one plus size model, compared to two out of 66 last season. Now, two seasons ago, six shows out of 72. So about 8.3% featured at least one plus size model. So the industry seems to be going backwards, it's shrinking, and representation is going away.

Yeah, I do feel like it's not in the news anywhere anymore. It's not like. Cause, like, we haven't really talked about it either. It hasn't been top of mind. I think there's a lot of stuff going on in everyone's lives. But, yes, it still would be nice when I have some money to be like, hey, I want to splurge on a thing, on an outfit or something, you know, and, yeah, be able to see something cool and fun.

And I feel like, like, plus size men's plus size clothing. The industry has taken a hit since the pandemic, you know, so many things closed. We were seeing growth before that.

Oh, yeah.

And seeing more brands showing up all the time. It has slowed down. Big brands are a lot more hesitant to dip their toe in something that they're not sure about, especially when they still don't really know how to market it.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, it.

There's still. Well, yeah, there's still a lot of uncertainty with it. Right. And, I mean, I get it. It's hard. Even harder now to make some money. People aren't spending.

Sure. You know, you got to focus on your core. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that makes it tricky. And when it comes to luxury fashion, I mean, there has not, there haven't been many options for big and tall guys. I mean, I'm sure there's custom made options out there, but that's not, you know, very attainable. I mean, luxury fashion, the amount of people buying that as compared to somebody going to old Navy. Very different. Very different. But if the options are there, people will buy that and there is a customer base for it. Yeah, but it's just not being catered to. So here we are, you know, again. So, yeah, it's, it's. It's not that surprising. We did watch one of the fashion shows, and. Oh, yeah, we, we saw the one.

That was supposedly had the most representation. Representation. And we played it and watched, and we were like, okay, is it that person? Is it that? But it was very. Once the person rounded the corner, it was very obvious who it was.

You could tell. Yeah.

You're like, oh, okay. There's the quote unquote plus size person.

Sure.

Cause when you're watching Runway shows, they're all fairly very slim and, you know, but even this guy, he wasn't very big, but he definitely. You could tell that he was the plus size person.

He definitely was.

So I was like, well, maybe that guy is considered plus size because he's not just skin and bones.

Right.

But then, yeah, then the, then the.

Actual model came out soon after that, and you could tell for sure. Yeah, it's. It's really interesting. I I don't know. I am curious, like, why they are including plus size models. Like, yes, I want to think it's for inclusivity and because they, they want that, but it's like, it's got to.

Come down to some kind of money thing or.

And it's hard to tell.

It's also decisions, and it's very hard.

To tell when you're watching a video or looking at a photo, what size is this person? You know, I mean, he. Looking at him, he could have been a range of sizes. I'm so I'm curious, like, what size does he actually, did he fit into the clothes? I mean, he had to fit, but did they have to customize things for him to make it work, you know?

Well, I did watch. I don't know what I was watching there a lot of. Sometimes that those designers will have, like, a couple looks that could be plus size.

Sure.

And then they're like, oh, so we're looking for someone to fit into this outfit.

Right.

You know, not like the entire line. There's, like, a couple pieces or whatever that they could make plus size.

Okay.

Want to see a bigger body in? And then when they find the person, they'll make the clothes specifically for that. The outfit for that person.

Sure. Okay. All right, so. So it could have been that they're.

Not just sample sizes. They do. They're doing pretty custom things.

Yeah. When you're going in for catalog shoots and that kind of thing, it's a lot of their samples and things like that. And so that's. Yeah, that's a little. That's a little trickier. I definitely know that I have. I have been. I have done photo shoots for different companies where, you know, they've had to cut things around the back or they've had to pin things in certain ways, or, you know, it's a lot of photo magic to make it fit of. Yep. In those cases, they do have the sizes. They just didn't have the correct size for me on hand or, you know, I mean, a reality of buying any kind of clothes is that you're. Unless it's custom made to you and you're measured, things are not gonna fit perfectly every single time. So things have to be altered. And, you know, when you're doing a photo shoot like that, it's nice. You've got a team there doing it. Who doesn't?

On the fly, cut it open, do whatever.

Yeah, right.

It was. It was funny. After. I think. I don't even know. I think it might have been after you had said that. And I was still working at DXL, I noticed in, like, the promotional pictures that they print or send or whatever.

Yeah.

I'm like, oh, my God. You can totally tell those pants are pins.

They're like, yeah.

Folded over them. Like, there's a weird thing right there. Or there's like, a weird. I'm like, oh, my God. They totally used those photos.

It's.

It wasn't a view, but there was some other people. And I'm like, oh, wow, I can really see that now that I know it's there.

If you look at it, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's funny, you know, there are so many little tricks that. That they kind of employ, you know, across the board. And this is not just for plus size, but I do think plus size there, they have to be a lot more creative. You know, they're using those, like, the binder clips that use for paper to, you know, just all these different things, and they have all these tools that they use to make that stuff work.

So they want it to look fitted or they do it to look just.

Yeah, they do. And, you know, it's not. It's not deception, because you can make your clothes look like that if you get them altered.

Oh, yeah.

You know, and in some cases, I mean, everybody's bought clothes where they actually fit you well, you put it on, it fits great. You're like, this is wonderful.

Yeah. But, you know, other times, it's like, oh, if I could just raise the sleeve or take it in a little bit here, or.

Yeah, but these companies are spending tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to do these photo shoots, and they want it to be perfect. And so they have these teams. I mean, DXL, for example. I think every shoot that I did with them, almost every shoot I did with them, they had, like, an rv that you'd pull up in at least one rv. You'd go in there and the models go in and they'd have, they'd have the stylists and the, like, tailors in the back kind of getting the clothes ready, making sure everything's good. You try it on, they'd look at you, feel your figure out what they needed to do. They needed to alter something. And they were doing all that stuff on the fly. If they couldn't alter it, they'd pin it, you know? And so it's. I'm sure that there's something similar for these, you know, Runway kind of, kind of models. But we look at that and we see this plus size representation, and we see that that's there, and that's good. But then if you go to actually try to buy the clothes, nothing fits you. And I am definitely not the target market for most of this kind of stuff, but I look and I do find things. And, I mean, the thing that, that stinks about it is that if you did find something you really liked wouldn't fit you.

So there was that crushed. I already forgot what it was called. Yeah, and I was like, oh, that's kind of interesting. And then we went and looked at. I was like, oh, the three x is even still too small for me, so.

Right, right.

I mean, darn, I can't spend $700 or. Yeah, $700 on something that I don't need.

Yeah.

But it was like, oh, that's kind of cool. And then I'm like, oh, yeah. They got me excited when they had three x on the size thing. And then, as I always do, straight to the size chart.

Totally. Yeah.

Go to the measurements.

You can never trust the XL, XXL, three XL. You can never trust that.

Yeah.

Yeah. So beer time. Break time.

I did already open mine and have a few things, but, yeah, go ahead. What do you got there?

So it's summer. We just got through a heat wave, and there are a few beers that are better than lining Kugel's summer shandy for this time of year. This beer is. It's a Weiss beer, naturally.

A what?

Weiss.

Weiss. I was like a wife.

A wife beer. It's a weiss beer, and it has a natural lemonade flavor. This is a good, easy drinking beer for summer.

Amazing.

So good.

Lana Kugel. Yeah.

Oh, man.

I've had every combination of those.

It's glorious.

Yeah. I remember going at the Minnesota State fair. They have, like, a huge place that does that.

Yeah.

And they have, like, special ones just for the state fair.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Wow.

You try, like, all the flavors.

Yeah.

Wow. I didn't know they came in that many different flavors.

Yeah. This. This beer definitely reminds me of living in Wisconsin.

Yep.

Where it was big and it was everywhere, and it was the. It was the first time, you know, living in other places. I had seen summer Shandy in stores, but I had never seen, like, regular linen Kugel in stores until I was in Wisconsin. And it tastes just like beer. Regular beer. But the summer shandy is where it's at. It is. I highly recommend it. It's very tasty and perfect for this burning, sweltering heat.

Right? Yeah. It's not horrible now, but it was. No, we got the hundred something, but, yeah.

Yeah. And I know, you know, if you're. If you're listening to this from, like, I don't know, El Paso, you're like, boohoo. But up here, we just. Yeah, we just don't get that that often. And, I mean, it was hot. Hot. But everybody made it through, I think I've read the news, but I made it through. Yes. We're here. We're recording.

Yes. And I am doing I don't remember which one I did before. The best day brewing non alcoholic beer. It's the hazy ipa.

Yes.

Born in northern California, so best day yet. It's good.

Nice. Shout out to best day for great non alcoholic beers. And they have a lot of good varieties. You know, it has been really interesting to see these different brands pop up that are really getting it. They get very, very close to what actual beer tastes like.

I mean, you'd know. Cause you're not getting buzzed, but, like, for, like, one beer, you're like, oh, yeah, this is great.

Totally. Yeah, yeah, it's good. It works out.

Hazy ipas are my go to, and they're. I think they're good in summertime, so.

Yeah. So there you go.

Cheers to linies and hazies. And. That's right, summer shanties.

Yep. We've got our untapped beer list on untapped.com. and in the show notes, you'll see it. So you check it out there and, yeah. Find the beers that you like. Try something new. We've tried so many beers over the years that you can look at that and see.

I don't know how to spell that line of Kugel.

Yes. Lion Kugel. Can't even say it now. Linenkugel. It's a tricky one to spell. Summer shandy. It's their flagship beer. Speaking of years and years, we didn't really address this last month, but our anniversary of heavy conversation has come and gone. We're a year older now. Yeah. 2018.

Yeah, sounds about right.

Yeah. So, yes. I mean, 2018. It feels like decades ago, when we were young.

We lads.

Yeah, we lads. Now look at us. What time has wrought. Yeah. Yeah. So, happy anniversary to us.

Yes.

Yeah.

Cheers.

Cheers. There we go. Yeah.

Cheers.

Yes. 200.

Oh, my. I don't even know anymore.

60 ish episodes.

Can't even keep track.

Yeah, a lot of. A lot of episodes. I mean, we've covered so much. We've talked about so much. We've done so many interesting things. We need to take the show on the road. I would like to go somewhere and do a live show. I think that would be fun. Yeah.

Where are we going?

I don't know. I don't know. I mean. I don't know. I mean, easy thing would be to do it here in Portland somewhere.

Yeah. Yeah.

But it would be cool to.

Is there an event that we should go to, everyone? That we should do a live show?

Yeah, that would be. That would be cool. I mean, I guess we did. I do. We did a live show last year at the.

Oh, yeah, we did at the.

The Chubhub thing, the Chubb hub PDX event then. Yeah. And it was also sweltering hot, but we were.

That.

It was undercover. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, it'd be fun to get out and do something again. I'm. I've got a hankering for that, so.

Yeah, I'm sure we can make something happen.

Right, right.

So find a. Find a place. A brewery or. Yes.

Yeah. Do something fun. Yeah, yeah. So back to fashion week. One of the things in the article that stands out to me. Well, there are a couple things. I'll start with the slightly smaller one.

It is.

A lot of these brands that have plus size models walking are pulling people off the street. And so apparently it creates barriers for agency signed models whose agents won't let them walk for as little as €50 because models say the agency would take 20%. Yeah. So it's easy for the brands to be able to pull somebody in and kind of go, I think that's. That's probably a discussion for another episode.

You know, the.

What that comes down to is that there are. There are plus size models out there, whether they are off the street or signed, there are options.

There's plenty of them that have agencies and.

Right, right. We just need the. We need the clothes, so. Yeah, I think it is. Let's see. I'm just kind of looking through here. So. Yeah, so they are saying about getting the sizes, that samples are a huge factor. So it does depend on what's available. Some of these brands have a studio team that can just make something specifically for a person of a larger size. If we still have someone in mind that we anticipate will be curvier, that's all good and well, but if I. They make something custom for somebody, then how does that translate into the end user, you know, buying something and fitting into it? Yeah, that doesn't. That doesn't quite. Doesn't quite work.

So it's almost misleading, actually.

Yeah.

Because you're like, oh, I saw a bigger body in this stuff.

Right.

And then none of it.

None of it fits. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, it's. I think there is a push toward diversity. The big thing they're talking about how a few models are gaining all the same. The opportunities, you know, it'll be like one or two models that kind of get grabbed is this is the model who does this thing. And I mean that to be fair, that happens. But I think that happened early on because there were fewer plus size models. And so you'd see, like, one guy who'd show up in every campaign. There's less of that because there's more options, which is a great thing. Now, the big thing that I wanted to talk about out of this article that I am not sure is an actual issue is the Ozempic effect. Yeah. So if Ozempic is something that really bothers you, you can tune out to this part, but we're not going to dive in deep on that Ozempic. I'm sure if you're listening to this, you probably know what it is. Some kind of weight loss drug pop culture is dominated by drastic weight loss journeys and glow ups. Since the rise of Ozempic and tweakments for men and women, they're saying among men, analysts have seen an uptick in fitness and wellness. As more male celebrities use this to do their glow ups. They're saying, you know, it's like, is this a thing? They're saying that this could also, they're saying this may also be hurting inclusivity on the Runway.

I think they're reaching, yeah. Really hard on that.

It says there's, there was no interest in mins. This is a quote from someone in the article from, yeah. Deputy head of foresight at the future laboratory. There was no interest in men's plus size anyway, but now I fear it's going to get squashed. Now, the problem with ozempic is, yes, it's popular and you're reading articles about it, but it's damn expensive.

I was like, yeah, no, who's using that?

Yeah, prohibitively expensive. It can cost a thousand a month. So that means, you know, high end folks are using it. But not everybody, and those are the same people that are going to be buying luxury clothes. If you can afford a zempic, then you're going to be more apt to buy the luxury stuff. So, you know, they're saying if there's no incentive to develop plus size collections in the future, it's really the end of something that has never started. At least we started talking about size inclusivity in the past few years, but I think it's going to end there. So I. We're not there. I don't think the ozimpic effect, I mean, maybe, maybe for luxury, but I just, I don't see it.

Yeah, it doesn't seem even like it's, people have talked about it, sure, but it's not like I, I mean, the, I know more people that have had like, gastric.

Right.

Bypass or whatever that type of surgery than I do. Sure. That have used ozempic or even like, talked about trying to maybe use it or anything. So I think it. I honestly was like, that was a weird thing to even include in the article, maybe. Yeah. I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, who knows? It sounds like it was something that came up and that, that part of the interview is they're putting together the articles, so who knows? I just, it's hard to imagine that that is the case. But that said, you know, when, when competing drugs become cheaper and those things are out there, we'll see how that affects the, you know, I don't know, the industry at large.

Yeah.

See if, if it makes a difference and if people are suddenly just shedding pounds and getting going for smaller options, I mean, I think there is always going to be. I don't think there's going to be one magic, magic cure now, you know, we could be doing this and another four or five years and I'm eating my words, but I just. All.

You're eating?

Yes, exactly. That's the only thing I eat these days. Now that I'm on ozempic, I'm nothing. I'm not. I don't have a month for that, so. Right. There's that. So, yeah, I just, I don't know, it's. It's hard to imagine that that is part of the. Part of the deal.

Yeah, I thought that was, it was just such a weird turn in the article. I was like, wait, what?

Luxury fashion is made to be exclusionary.

Yeah.

It's just, by definition it is. It's expensive. There's smaller amounts made. They focus on a specific type of model. Even when they go plus size, they're not really, you know, they're going for inclusivity within their sphere. Yes, whatever. I mean, you know, a step in the direction is better than no step or backtracking, which it looks like was happening a little bit.

We have what happened. Yeah.

The hope is that there are bigger fashion brands or that there are more fashion brands that maybe next year decide that they want to feature bigger models, but even more than that, make the clothes and the sizes that people might be looking for. And I think you would be surprised that some of these customers who can't fit into these options, who can't fit into these options right now, would buy the stuff in the future if it was there.

Well, I think one of the things that I normally get out of, like luxury fashion Runway shows, is inspiration. Sure. That's what I use them for. And I think that's a lot of what happens from that kind of stuff. It's like the trickle down of, like, we see it on the Runway here, and it's like, oh, now it's a trickles down to this, and, you know, but it also having big and tall plus size models trickles down, too.

Sure. So showing that those models can be inspiring.

Yeah.

You know, is part of it. You're getting that inspiration. You can include bigger models and make them look great and make them feel like they're part of what you're doing.

Yeah. And it can still tell whatever story you're telling with.

Right.

You know, you're, you know, whatever the inspiration was, they can be included in that storyline.

Totally.

Yeah, yeah. Just like they are in real life.

Yeah. Right, like, right, yeah. It's a weird time for men's plus size. It just feels like it. It doesn't feel. It feels like everything's kind of in a holding pattern.

Mm hmm.

Still.

Mm hmm.

Which is interesting, I think, like you said, there's so many other things going on.

Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, everything so super. You know, inflation has made basics really expensive, so people aren't spending that much on extra things. So I think brands were having a tough time figuring out what it is that people do want to buy.

Sure.

Without me going crazy because I'm bored with look, you know.

Right.

It's a lot of stuff and then election stuff.

Starting to politics, definitely.

That's stressful.

And, yeah, you get closer to an election and people are, like, batting down the hatches. You have just gonna happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I get it. I get it. I think the rest of this year, it'll be interesting. It will be really interesting to see what the holiday season is like, you know, fall and holiday, because, you know, by the time we get to holiday, election is gonna be done.

Well, knock on wood.

I take that back. I take that back. We don't know. We don't know where we're gonna be, but, yeah, it's gonna be a roller coaster, so I don't know, this luxury thing, I think it's something that we will have to come back to, you know, revisit it, see how things go on things and. Yeah.

See what's happening.

Yeah, I think it start a.

Start a trending thing on Twitter.

Yeah.

Where's the plus?

Yes, yes. Exactly. And it's. It's awesome that. It's awesome to see that that vogue business did this, so. Yeah. Lucy McGuire and Malia, I'm so bad at.

Thanks, Malia.

Yes, Lucy. Malia. Yeah, check it out. It's vogue business. We'll include a link to it so you can check it out and see, you know, it's, it's an interesting article and, you know, hopefully, hopefully we see some positive change moving forward.

Well, cheers again to our delayed anniversary podcast. Thanks, everyone, for listening. We're still around. We are not on a regular schedule as you have.

Yeah, we're working on it.

But we're here.

Yeah. Yeah.

We're making it happen. We are. All right. Thanks, Bruce.

Thanks, Jody.

Bye, everyone. Bye bye.

Thanks for listening to heavy conversation. Be sure to like and subscribe on iTunes or wherever you get your.