PART 1

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[00:00:00] START

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season five, episode 21 of People's Soup. It's Ross McIntosh here,

[00:00:06] Heather: in terms of behavior change, as soon as someone starts to feel shame, they disengage and it's very then difficult to get them to reengage because they'll feel like they've failed or they failed the app or they fail the program that they're on and they won't wanna reengage. And a lot of these apps, they don't actually allow people an exit strategy and a reentry strategy.

[00:00:26] Heather: You kind of feel like once you're out, you're out. and that the door is closed then and you can't come back in. And, and in real life, you know, we all fail multiple times cuz you fail your way to the top. That's how you do it. and so, you know, actually these failures should be encouraged from the start, but the very first step is knowing why people have showed up in the first place, what's meaningful for them, and how do we then we make it easy as possible for them to engage with their habits or behaviors.

[00:00:52] Ross: PE Soupers. It is my honor to introduce you to Dr. Heather McKee. Heather is a health behavior change specialist.

[00:00:59] Ross: She helps companies create evidence-based health and wellness programs that bring about long-term change for their customers or employees.

[00:01:07] Ross: also helps in individuals to create healthy habits that last through her bite-sized habits course. In this episode, we hear all about Heather's squiggly career path. The barriers to living a healthy life, the different types of motivation and much more.

[00:01:21] Ross: Heather is such an engaging speaker. It was a true joy to chat and I think you're going to love it.

[00:01:27] Ross: People Soup is an award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to help you glow to work a bit more often. Let's just scoot over to the news desk because reviews are in for part two of my chat with Professor Ross White Philip Addison on LinkedIn said, I listened [00:02:00] to the podcast Ross, which once again was extremely thought-provoking. I loved the observation regarding asking elite athletes how much time they spend on their mental, emotional fitness, Which they acknowledged had a significant impact on performance. It would be interesting to ask managers, leaders the same question. Absolutely, Philip. I couldn't agree more, And I hazard a guess. We could predict some of the responses from leaders and managers. Thanks so much to Philip and to everyone who listened.

[00:02:28] Ross: Shared rated. Spoke about it with a friend. anything you can do to talk about the podcast is truly appreciated. We rely on you talking about it and sharing the podcast to help us reach more people with stuff that could be useful.

[00:02:41] Ross: People, supers are true labor of love, so anything you can do to spread the word is much appreciated, You might help someone else get insights to help them glow to work. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to part one of my chat with Heather McKee. Dr. Heather McKee. Welcome to People Soup.

[00:03:03] Heather: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

[00:03:04] Ross: Yeah, I'm excited you're here. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Now, Heather, I've mentioned my research department who've been digging out a little bit about you and like sort of exploring your, your presence and I've got some stuff to share with you and they don't always get everything right, so just keep an ear out

[00:03:21] Ross: for that.

[00:03:22] Heather: deep did they dig?

[00:03:25] Ross: Well, honestly, Heather, I don't think there's anything alarming here,

[00:03:29] Heather: Let's

[00:03:30] Ross: but I just wanted to introduce you to, to our listener. So it says here, Dr. Heather McKee is a health behavior change specialist. She helps companies new and old create evidence-based health and wellness programs that bring about long-term changes for their customers and employees.

[00:03:46] Ross: And that also supports individuals to take back control of their health and build healthy habits that last with her research back to bite-sized habits course. I'll come back to that in a minute. How are we doing so far? Does that sound[00:04:00]

[00:04:00] Ross: Pretty

[00:04:00] Heather: Sounds pretty

[00:04:01] Heather: accurate.

[00:04:01] Ross: Great. Now it says here that they found out that you grew up in Ireland.

[00:04:06] Ross: Who knew?

[00:04:07] Heather: No surprise there.

[00:04:09] Ross: And you went to Dublin City University where you studied sports science and health. Followed by an MSC in physical activity and health psychology from Loughborough University. And it says here, this is where you got really interested in health related behavior change whilst running a healthy lifestyle clinic for hospital staff.

[00:04:28] Ross: And you really had this first to understand why well-intentioned people with all the resources they needed couldn't stick to their healthy habit goals. So you explored that a bit further. You were really so curious and sat down with each person in the clinic to understand more about what was holding them back.

[00:04:45] Ross: And from that moment is kind of when you became hooked on the psychology behind what motivates people to adopt and stick to healthy goals. This took you to another location, to the University of Birmingham where you completed a PhD in weight loss, behavior change, psychology. And in this PhD research, you focused on how to set goals that lead to lasting changes and discovering the key strategies for long-term healthy lifestyle success and how to build these strategies to help people stick with their goals without having to resort to dieting in Interesting.

[00:05:17] Ross: I think peace supers, I think you'll be a GOG at this. We love talking about behavior change. we love talking about habits too. So the kind of next piece of the jigsaw is that when your studies were published and released to the mainstream media, there was an influx of inquiries. People really want to know about this stuff, and you realize the importance of sharing your work outside of academia.

[00:05:40] Ross: So Heather now supports companies to build health and wellness offerings with measurable results and long-lasting impact. I've got a bit

[00:05:46] Ross: more.

[00:05:47] Heather: Oh no, if people aren't already asleep with that one. No joking.

[00:05:52] Ross: No, listen, this is such a, it chimes so well with what we talk about quite a lot on people's soup, the behavioral [00:06:00] science, and it says here, and Heather is generous too. There's a free bite-sized course on her website@heathermckee.co.uk and I'll make sure that links in the show notes, of course.

[00:06:10] Ross: And it's designed to kickstart your healthy habits and start making lasting changes to your health in just five days. So from this free program The intention is that people will walk away with the tools needed to start creating healthy habits that stick.

[00:06:25] Ross: people will get the evidence-based research backed blueprint for making lasting positive changes in their lives. Lyme. this is a free course online.

[00:06:34] Heather: Yeah, and it's only five days, so it's no pressure.

[00:06:37] Ross: Now it says here, Heather is a keen sportswoman and equestrian, and was recently spotted, not far from me, near Seville, showing great skills and control on horseback in El Roth. And it says here, I'm not sure whether you can comment on this, Heather, but it says so much so that she's now in early talks with Hollywood to have a side hustle as a horseback

[00:07:00] Ross: stunt double.

[00:07:01] Heather: Oh, I'm not, I'm not, I can't disclose that as of yet.

[00:07:04] Ross: But hey, horse riding in El Roth. Theo, I don't think you can get any more end luan than

[00:07:10] Ross: that.

[00:07:11] Heather: I, to be honest, because it was in January, I couldn't really say, I was gonna say it was a highlight of my year, but that seems a bit disingenuous and unfair to how incredible the experience was. But, um, there's nothing like the experience of. Going through the town on horseback and just we're all, you know, the beautiful church and the beautiful surroundings and you're there in your Western style.

[00:07:33] Heather: And I just thought, this is life itself. I was just on cloud nine.

[00:07:37] Ross: I look forward to visiting. In fact, there's a pilgrimage every year from where I live, uh, a town called HIEs, outside Silla. There's a pilgrimage every year to El Ro Theo, and a little kind of covered wagons that make that pilgrimage and people

[00:07:53] Ross: walk.

[00:07:54] Heather: yeah. it's just an incredible place. Like even the bars have, little bars that you can [00:08:00] ride right up to and have your little sherry or your cava on your horse, um, outside the bar. so yeah, the whole town is just made for horses and horse lovers and yeah, it's, it's a wonderful place.

[00:08:12] Heather: It's fantastic.

[00:08:13] Ross: Oh, I, I can't wait to visit, although I am not an experienced horse man. If that's what you call someone. A horseback horseman. That doesn't sound right. Horse rider.

[00:08:27] Heather: Yeah.

[00:08:28] Ross: So, so, so while I tried to cover up my lack of knowledge about equestrian activities, um, Heather, that was, that was my research department's brief introduction.

[00:08:41] Ross: But I wonder, we'd like to find out a bit more about you. I wonder if you wouldn't mind telling us more about. Your career, how it's evolved, and how you've arrived at where you're at today. Just tell us some of the, the key points, maybe the pivotal moments, cuz it just helps us understand you and who you are and, and why you do what you do.

[00:09:00] Heather: Yeah. how long have you got Ross?

[00:09:02] Ross: Well.

[00:09:03] Heather: Oh, it's a, it was definitely, you know, I think I heard this phrase recently, a squiggly career. I think when I started out, and this will show my age, there, Behavioral science wasn't really a thing. you know, human behavior change. It wasn't necessarily a, a big feel like it is today or it wasn't kind of as well known, as it is today.

[00:09:21] Heather: As you kind of rightly put out, I'm a very curious person, even to the point where I was asking you just before you came on about what cup of tea you're drinking and um, I think I had to harness that for good, otherwise I'd be really irritating. So I brought my curiosity to understanding human behavior better.

[00:09:37] Heather: and it was, I think one of the pivotal moments was, as you mentioned, working in that metabolic syndrome clinic and just seeing people who had, you know, all the perfect ingredients for change. So they had personal training programs, they had perfect nutrition plans, and yet they couldn't make it stick.

[00:09:54] Heather: And when I sat down with them, I realized that every single person had their own kind of individual [00:10:00] barriers. They all had their own, personal experiences that actually were holding 'em back potentially from success. And, and it made me kind of curious as you could have all the perfect ingredients for health, and yet it was a method that they were missing.

[00:10:15] Heather: And I, I talk a lot about this a lot now in my work, but you know, How many of us don't know that we need to eat more vegetables or sleep better or manage our stress better or um, you know, floss. it's not a knowledge gap, it's implementation gap. You know, you think it's information that we need, but it's implementation that we need.

[00:10:31] Heather: And I think that's what got me started on that journey to understand more about implementation. How do we get people to turn their intentions into actions? How do we help them overcome those barriers? And I think that was what a lot of my research was around was like, why do some people manage to stick with their goals long term?

[00:10:49] Heather: While some people can do it for a while, but they fall back. What are those characteristics and differences and can we train them? And I always talk about, you know, I wanna focus on skill, power, not willpower. Cuz willpower is a finite resource. It's unreliable. You know, as soon as we. Get a bad email from our boss, or we have a fight with our other half, or, you know, our willpower is out the window as soon as someone puts a freshly baked cake in front of us, you know, it's all gone.

[00:11:13] Heather: Whereas, you know, what I was curious about was skills and, and skill power, and I think that's what formed my early research career. and then I went a bit squiggly because I think I burned out a bit after PhD, to do with research. and I, I ran a, weight maintenance group, um, for people in socially deprived areas in Birmingham.

[00:11:34] Heather: And we were doing studies at the time, we were looking at if people had a normal, diet and exercise group, you know, where they, you know, a typical weight loss group and then people had a skill building group. and what we found was that the skill building group were as successful at weight loss maintenance as those that just got diet and exercise, even though the skill building didn't get any diet or exercise advice.

[00:11:55] Heather: And they were, they were told not to adjust their diet, or their exercise in any particular way. And [00:12:00] yet somehow, you know, they lost the same amount of weight, but they also had incredible differences in psychological markers, and that was way more significant. um, they'd reduced stress, they'd reduced depression.

[00:12:10] Heather: They actually had greater mindful awareness. You know, it was really interesting over time to see the effects that those psychological skills had. and I was working with these groups of people that made me think, you know what, I, I just wanna be out kind of translating the research. And as you said, you know, I was lucky enough to have a press release around a couple of my studies and I ended up talking to all sorts of newspapers around the world.

[00:12:32] Heather: Um, and at the time didn't have very much media experience. So I was telling everyone about all my habits, chat away to people at, you know, the LA Times about my Christmas dinner and what I have and all, not known that they would write a whole piece on like, but you know, it was all, it was a result of that.

[00:12:50] Heather: Actually, one of my pieces. Was picked up by the Daily Mail, which is not really one of those kind of highbrow, institutions that maybe academics would think would, would be important to be published in. But actually it was, for me, that was a big pivotal moment in my career because it was translating the research into ways in which people on the street could understand behavioral science and how to apply it to their lives.

[00:13:13] Heather: And it meant, meant a lot to me. And actually reading through the comments of that, I really thought, do you know what, that's what I wanna do. I wanna be able to translate the research into ways that people can change their lives right now. And I feel like if I stay in academia, I'm going to only share it really within academia.

[00:13:30] Heather: And, and so what I wanted to do was find a way of, been able to share it outside of academia. Now that sounds all holier than thou. And it took me a good few years to kind of find my niche with that. And definitely now days, the speaking is one of my favorite ways in which to do that. But you know, it, it, it took me, I suppose, long story short, at that stage there wasn't behavioral science roles in, in, in organizations.

[00:13:52] Heather: And so I was working with different charities, helping them create wellbeing programs, especially around people with longer term [00:14:00] conditions, helping support them, with the psychological skills needed to actually engage in health behaviors and maintain them long term. and while I was working for those, um, consultancies, I got asked by a couple of, I did a couple of digital interventions as part of, um, some of my research.

[00:14:15] Heather: And then, so I got asked by a couple apps, oh, can you help us make our app sticky? and then that kind of spiraled into then, you know, slowly working up to the, on that, full-time. I, I did have a, a lectureship role in behavioral change psychology for a good few years and I was able to have that at one day a week.

[00:14:31] Heather: So I was able to keep one foot in boat camps, which I think, you know, you yourself, Ross, you know, do that. And I, I think that's a wonderful way. To kind of stay engaged in both fields cuz I was really, I was a bit sad about leaving academia in a way because I love research and I love learning more and I love the papers and everything else, but I found the publication side a bit punishing and, I really just loved that, you know, working with people, part of it.

[00:14:58] Heather: so I suppose I was lucky enough to, over time now it wasn't easy, but, over time, design my own career.

[00:15:04] Ross: Hmm. Lovely. And I love the way you describe it as a squiggly career line because you know what, I think I ask a lot of my guests about their career and, and they generally turn out to be squiggly and interesting and have those decision points, and that's kind of maybe experimentation points where we think, yeah, no, yeah, no, that's not for me.

[00:15:24] Ross: That is for me, and it's super interesting. To see how it evolves and also how it evolves through hard work. None of these things you're describing happen overnight.

[00:15:33] Heather: No, and I think that's really, I think that's, I did a talk recently to a group of PhD students, and I think that's a really important point I get a lot of inquiries saying, oh, can I work with you or work for you? I, I just, what you do is so cool. Like it's amazing.

[00:15:46] Heather: And, and, and I'm always like, you know, it, it took a long time to get to this point, and even now, you know, I'm constantly, and I'm sure as you are, Ross, I'm constantly evolving. You know, even over Covid, COVID, everyone just wanted to [00:16:00] talk, everyone know, wanted to know how they sit, your routine, how they engage in habits, everything.

[00:16:04] Heather: And so then I started doing loads more speaking and realized, geez, that's something I absolutely love. And, you know, now I'm trying to, you know, move my work maybe into that. So I'm doing 50% consulting, 50% speaking. Whereas before I would be like, no, I. I don't think I could be a speaker or, you know, that's not really what, what I'll do.

[00:16:24] Heather: But, um, I I think that's the beauty of, behavioral science is ultimately now there are so many routes that you can go, whether you wanna work in an organization. I get excited you, I get these, LinkedIn, things that are talking about, you know, Headspace is just, you know, hired a chief behavioral officer and all of this, and I just think isn't that wonderful?

[00:16:44] Heather: Like, you know, we're, we're There's a human behavior, science is spreading, you know, across the globe and people are really seeing, the importance of it, in understanding, you know, why people do what they do.

[00:16:53] Ross: Mm. Yeah, I couldn't agree more I think. I think lots of people are. Paying much more attention to it and realizing the power of understanding and, and looking to support people to develop more healthy habits. So it seems you, you have this evolving desire to transmit useful stuff to other people,

[00:17:15] Heather: Yeah,

[00:17:16] Ross: that's partly what we're doing right now, but I'm interested in the speaking element.

[00:17:19] Ross: What, what do you love about sort of, I guess, is a speaking engagement? Is that something where you go and talk for a company to a big group of people? Are there any examples you could share about, about how you approach something like

[00:17:32] Ross: that?

[00:17:32] Heather: yeah, like, I think for me, so I'm doing a keynote in two weeks and. It's, it's in the midst of, you know, I, I was looking at the agenda when I was preparing, the stuff and it was all about, the financial uncertainty and, you know, it was a lot of doom and gloom. And I thought, you know what I'm gonna do?

[00:17:49] Heather: I'm gonna go for something that might be quite lighthearted, quite enjoyable, but give people an insight into, you know, how they can learn about themselves and build their own skills [00:18:00] within, half an hour. Um, um, but in a fun way. And I, I, I think for me, like one of the key principles of behavioral sciences, and I always talk about this, you know, if you can find joy, then the rest comes easy.

[00:18:12] Heather: And, and I, I think that, trying to design talks that are really joyful and interesting for people enhances intrinsic motivation, which is the sticky motivation, which is much more likely to engage people and much more likely to shift their behaviors in the positive direction of change. And so I think the way I would approach that is I would think about what would I want to hear if I was in the audience right now?

[00:18:35] Heather: What's gonna push the needle for me? And ultimately as well, I want people to be able to walk away feeling like they've been empowered to actually make a change, or that they've had their self-efficacy or their self-belief heightened around their ability to make change, happen. And, that's what's quite meaningful for me.

[00:18:52] Heather: Um, I actually just got some feedback there from a talk I did last week. And the woman, said that she said she was so motivated afterwards. She went out for her first run in six years, literally just after the talk. And she's like, I didn't even know I wanted to run, but there I was out running. and that's, that's something that I just, yeah, it's so meaningful for me.

[00:19:10] Heather: and I think as well after Covid, you know, some of these in-person talks can be a wonderful way to just really, I love sitting in the room afterwards and chatting with people and understanding what landed for them and what didn't, and what are they struggling with at the moment. And then trying to make sure I can design things that are gonna, you know, help more people in the future.

[00:19:29] Heather: also just love a good chat as well about behavior change. So anyone who's willing, they're, silly enough to come talk to me about it. They, they better say themselves a good hour of the day because I'm always curious to find out more.

[00:19:40] Ross: it's interesting we come back to that curiosity because I, I see that in you in our, in our conversations we had before. Today when we're recording, I see that curiosity in you and I think that serves you really well to think about things and how they were best land. And I absolutely agree.

[00:19:55] Ross: I mean, a lot of my work is around skills building and[00:20:00] I dunno about you, but I find that the more I am myself, the more people can relate to what I'm saying and take it and think about how they could apply it in their own lives. Do you find a similar

[00:20:13] Ross: thing?

[00:20:14] Heather: Yeah, I, I love that you say that Ross, cuz actually. I was on a podcast recently and it was, it's called Experts Podcast, and it's all about experts in the field. And I kind of, I don't love the word expert because I always feel like everyone's an expert on themselves in a way, and I'm just a specialist and I kind of, you know, try and evoke your own personal expertise out of you, rather than kind of coming in and saying, well, I've all powerful in knowing and, you know, would know more than anyone else.

[00:20:41] Heather: I'm just trying to get people to harness the strengths that they already have and, and use them to help themselves. but, we, I was talking about actually for so long in my, in my business, I was afraid to kind of be myself. I, I kind of still had that academic fail where I was almost. You know, afraid to kind of talk colloquially or, make things like in more simple language or give an example for my real life, or tell a story or do all of those things because I thought it made me look unprofessional.

[00:21:11] Heather: and even, you know, I only put my website in my actual name only in the last couple of years cuz I was, you know, afraid to become my brand in a way because I, I'd seen everything that was happening on social media and I, I didn't really, that didn't really resonate with me either. And, yeah, I was afraid to be visible in, in my business.

[00:21:28] Heather: And it's only more recently now that my, I suppose my confidence has improved. And I've realized that, you know, at the end of the day, people wanna know who the person is, you know? Um, they're not gonna examine you or put you under a spotlight or anything, you know, we're all humans. And actually to be more relatable and to have examples from your real life is, Actually really what resonates most to people.

[00:21:50] Heather: And so everyone knows I fail at my habits all the time, you know, because that's something I'm, so, you know, that's the reason I'm in the field that I'm in because I find it so [00:22:00] interesting and intriguing and, and I succeed at habits a lot of the time too. But it's all an experiment ultimately.

[00:22:07] Heather: And, and I think I, one of my roles in this, and one of my passions in this is to help other people see that, you know, failure is okay and actually we all fail. Even those, that's really this day in, day out fail constantly. But, you know, failure is success. If we can learn from it, certainly

[00:22:22] Ross: I, I love the humanity and what you're role modeling for us,

[00:22:26] Heather: that's kind.

[00:22:26] Ross: and I too would be A little bit wary and uncomfortable about being hailed as the expert because I think it immediately puts you on a bit of a pedestal of people are looking up to you and in terms of habits and skills development, it can be that, Hey, here's Heather, or here's Ross.

[00:22:43] Ross: And that're is gonna fix everything for me. I just need to sit back and bask in the glory of their wonder and it's all gonna be magically sorted. And actually, if we can demonstrate, I love it when you said, I fail at my habits. cuz I think that brings the humanity and I think that's self-disclosure we found in, in the work we're doing around building skills to support healthy psychological wellbeing.

[00:23:08] Ross: That self-disclosure can be really powerful. It makes people look at you and me and go, Hey, they're just like me. If they can do this and keep going, even when they are unsuccessful. Then there must be something in these skills that is sticky.

[00:23:23] Heather: I mean, the funny thing is I've had to learn that the hard way as well myself because I would know a lot of this in relation to health, cuz health psychology was my main field. But then when it started coming to starting my business, I had to apply the same principles. In my business, you know, making small changes, building my self-efficacy over time.

[00:23:43] Heather: You know, not focusing on the outcome, but trying to fall in love with the process. All of these key factors that are necessary for long-term health behavior change were exactly the same factors that were necessary for maintaining, you know, the health of a business. And yet when I started out, I tried to do everything all at [00:24:00] once and I thought I could make changes overnight.

[00:24:03] Heather: And I thought, oh, I remember when I posted my first blog, I thought, oh, here we go. It's gonna go viral and you know, it's gonna go crazy. I don't even think anyone read my first blog, thank God, because you need to write about a hundred before you can actually write one that's decent. But you know, it's quite funny because I learned these lessons the hard way in so many different other areas of my life all the time.

[00:24:25] Heather: You know, more recently I had a, a hip operation and after my operation I came back too strong. I tried to win at rehab, I tried to succeed too quickly, which is something that we all try and do with our health. You know, we think in January we're gonna, um, you know, change everything and we throw everything in the kitchen sink at it, and then by February we feel like, you know, a massive fader.

[00:24:46] Heather: And it's exactly, you know, I did the same, with my recovery from my injury. And again, learned the hard way that you can't do that. You've gotta be paced, you've gotta make small changes. You've gotta fall in love with the process. Um, you know, you have to understand what your why behind everything is, what's your true intrinsic motivation and all of the key factors that are really important.

[00:25:05] Heather: so yeah, I'm definitely a good example of. Failing at and at time and time again. But I think the important thing there is that I have that bounce back ability that I'm actually able to, not say, oh, it's all or nothing. I'm, I'm going to reflect, I'm gonna grow and I'm gonna then, change things as I go forward again.

[00:25:24] Ross: I, I feel that tremendous sense of energy from you and that tenacity to keep going. Perhaps recognizing that sometimes you might just wanna be the best at, as you say, be the best at

[00:25:34] Ross: the recovery.

[00:25:35] Heather: Yeah, I'm definitely a recovering

[00:25:37] Heather: perfectionist, so I have to watch that in myself constantly. but again, that's the beauty of self-awareness, isn't it, Ross? Like, and I, I think it takes a long time to get to that point, but I know you talk a lot about acceptance, commitment therapy, and I find that that's such a beautiful tool for really helping you learn and understand and know yourself better.

[00:25:56] Heather: and yeah, I would certainly encourage people to. [00:26:00] Engage with that work because it does, you know, can help in so many ways, but certainly in terms of understanding, knowing what your limits are, knowing more about your habits, knowing more about your psychological habits, because thoughts are habits too, which is often something that people forget.

[00:26:15] Heather: And, you know, we can work on those just as much as we can work on our physical habits, you know? Um, and I think that's, that's quite important to remember.

[00:26:22] Ross: Hmm, lovely. And you've talked about, motivation, intrinsic motivation, and. Self-efficacy, are they some of the underlying principles that sit beneath what

[00:26:33] Ross: you do?

[00:26:33] Heather: Yeah, I think motivation is kind of, you know, I, I like to say I speak in the language of motivation, but what I don't mean is about, Being motivated all the time, like people would normally think about it. Actually, motivation is a lot more subtle and nuanced than that. You know, a lot of us take, okay, when we think of healthy habits, we think, okay, right, I'm gonna lose X amount of weight, or I'm gonna do x amount of time in the marathon, or I'm gonna lift X weight in the gym, or even stuff to do at work.

[00:27:04] Heather: I'm gonna earn X amount of money or, you know, and we look at those kind of outcomes. and we think that they're gonna drive us. And then, then a couple of weeks in, you know, we're striving for those and, and we, and we make a mistake as we would call it. And we feel like, oh, I'm never gonna get to that goal.

[00:27:19] Heather: I'm never gonna get to that goal. And we punish ourselves. And, but that goal ultimately only represents a snapshot in time. And it's like what I call, um, slippy motivation, which is extrinsic motivation. So it's motivation when you're doing things for performance or appearance reasons. So to look good in front of your boss or, to achieve that, like that special number.

[00:27:40] Heather: And ultimately, that's not what motivates us as humans long term. We need to tap more into intrinsic motivation. And, and Rossi love this intrinsic, and Latin is the word inward, and it translates into goods for the soul. And, and I love that phrase because it's like, Yeah. In essence, [00:28:00] like anything that nourishes your soul is what intrinsic is.

[00:28:04] Poss intro

[00:28:04] Heather: So it's about falling in love with the process. It's about how you following a particular goal represents who you are in the world, how it makes you better role model for your children, or allows you to better apply yourself at work or contribute more to your, community. and it's something I I, I talk about a lot is like, you know, how can we start with why, rather than a number?

[00:28:24] Heather: Because if we can start with, you know, I say find your why, find your way. And uh, and, and you know, if we can find that intrinsic, that sticky motivation, if we can find that why behind why we're doing something, it makes it much more easy to engage with it rather than punishing ourselves. Cause we're not a certain number on the scales.

[00:28:42] Heather: We're actually saying, well, do you know what? Today went out for a run. I felt really free when I came back, I felt so accomplished. Or this morning I woke up and had a glass of water and a fresh slice of lemon and it made me feel really refreshed and, uh, just energized for the day, or, or, you know, last night I got to into bed half an hour earlier and I woke up just feeling just much more calm this morning and just a lovely sense of self and achievement even before I started my day.

[00:29:07] Heather: And, you know, those are the feelings that we need to tap into. Not how many nights did you go to bed at x time, you know, it's, it's more about actually the joy you get from engaging in that habit. And that's ultimately over time, what keeps you coming back to it? Because it's a rewarding process.

[00:29:22] Ross: Yeah, I love hearing you speak because it really shows the sort of connection between what we both do the, the really close connection. We're both working on developing skills, we're both working on developing new habits, and mine is more principally from acceptance and commitment therapy and act. And it's very much about what gives you personal meaning,

[00:29:44] Heather: Mm. Loves us.

[00:29:46] Ross: what does meaning that helps you move towards this goal.

[00:29:49] Ross: How are you going to move towards this goal? And noticing what's going on, noticing what's going on around you, noticing what you're actually doing. Because quite often we're just on autopilot [00:30:00] and also noticing what our minds might be doing in that. Unhelpful stuff that our minds may be generating.

[00:30:05] Ross: Oh look, you haven't been out on your bike today, therefore you're useless and you're never gonna stick to this. But I love that intrinsic, that that definition is, is absolutely beautiful. And it really speaks to that inner purpose and motivation and drive and how we can show that in our behavior.

[00:30:27] Heather: yeah. I think it's really special because it becomes so much more than getting 10,000 steps on your fitness tracker. It becomes what walking allows you to do in your life, or who you become when you're walking, or you know, how it contributes to your mood, or so much more tangible and important things than 10,000 steps a day, which is what you know.

[00:30:49] Heather: Others tend to focus on, I, you know, I, I find that a lot when I work with corporates, you know, and, and then, and they're sharing, you know, their wellbeing program. They're like, well, we've got a step challenge and we've got a step program and all. And I'm like, which is great. It's great to get people engaged, you know, and often those extrinsic motivators can engage someone at the start, but they're not gonna keep them engaged.

[00:31:08] Heather: And so we have to go back to, well, why would people wanna get involved with this? What does it contribute to their lives? And as you say, Ross, how is a personally meaningful for you? Because why are you gonna engage in something that isn't personally meaningful for you?

[00:31:20] Ross: Hmm. And noticing how it contributes to our lives. You're making me think. Um, cuz I had a bit of a lull lump. I love cycling as I've mentioned, and I had a bit of a lull in January because I had this stinking cold that absolutely knocked me out and I wasn't on my bike. And then I was, it gets more difficult to get back on the bike and then I was thinking, oh, I'll just do a, like a five kilometer or a six kilometer.

[00:31:44] Ross: And then I was noticing that sort of, oh, well that's not very good. Six kilometers, and actually six kilometers is fine because I know that when I'm out there, I notice the nature, the animals, the birds, the [00:32:00] flowers, the plants, the sky, the sun, the rain, whatever it might be. I know I'm a better man when I've been on a bike ride

[00:32:06] Heather: Yeah. And it's interesting, isn't it? You're like, thinking about that end point, because I always say, you know, you can crave your healthy habits just as much as your unhealthy ones and what you're focused there on, you know, with the nature and everything you're creating. So when you're lying in bed, you know, weighing up the pros and cons, should I actually go for as bike ride or not?

[00:32:24] Heather: And if you're reminding yourself, oh, well actually I just love that feeling of the wind on my face or listening to the birds, or that accomplished feeling I get when I come back in after the cycling. You know, if you're tuning into all of that instead of, oh, well it's cold outside and I have to go get my bike from the bike shed, and it's all, you know, all the friction.

[00:32:43] Heather: what you're tuning into is all the joys and the pleasures. Um, you know, that makes it more, you crave it more and you're more likely to engage with it because there is less friction. Um, and you, you, those things are so salient to you, which is, which is so nice.

[00:32:56] Ross: Yeah, abs absolutely. I think things like apps and step counters are, are super useful, but I think people can just get. Addicted to reaching a kind of number and then that's it, and it's kind of feels a bit disconnected from that, that personal meaning and that intrinsic motivation to me.

[00:33:15] Ross: Sometimes it can feel a bit kind of robotic.

[00:33:19] Heather: Yeah. And it's certainly always the first step I try, with the app companies that I work with, you know, I'm, I'm always like, no, at the start, before we're getting anyone to do anything, we have to understand why they're here, what brought them here in the first place, you know, what are they hoping to achieve out of this?

[00:33:33] Heather: Beyond the numbers, how is it, as you say, personally meaningful for them? why did they show up? Because otherwise they're gonna use the app for a week, two weeks. they'll maybe track monitor really well, but. Then they'll, you know, fall off the wagon and they'll start to feel shame. And shame is one of those kind of big red lights.

[00:33:52] fail your way to the top

[00:33:52] Heather: in terms of behavior change, as soon as someone starts to feel shame, they disengage and it's very then difficult to get them to reengage because [00:34:00] they'll feel like they've failed or they failed the app or they fail the program that they're on and they won't wanna reengage. And a lot of these apps, they don't actually allow people an exit strategy and a reentry strategy.

[00:34:12] Heather: You kind of feel like once you're out, you're out. and that the door is closed then and you can't come back in. And, and in real life, you know, we all fail multiple times cuz you fail your way to the top. That's how you do it. and so, you know, actually these failures should be encouraged from the start, but the very first step is knowing why people have showed up in the first place, what's meaningful for them, and how do we then we make it easy as possible for them to engage with their habits or behaviors.

[00:34:37] Ross: never thought of it in terms of apps, if you sort of miss a day or, or don't upload something, or don't do an exercise, then, then you can feel like it's more shameful to, to reenter or you can feel castigated rather than welcomed and reinforced for actually coming back to the app, coming back to the bike or the activity or

[00:34:57] Ross: whatever it might be.

[00:34:58] Heather: Yeah, I always say like, it's kind of like friendship, you know, you've gotta treat it like friendship, but friendship. You don't start asking someone stats straight away, you know, when you first meet them. Um, and then over time as well, you, you know, when an old friend comes to the door and you haven't seen them in a while, what reaction do you have when they show up?

[00:35:15] Heather: You certainly, don't like drag your feet. You certainly get excited for them coming back, you know, and you reward that behavior because you enjoy spending time with them. And I think it's important to understand that when you're an app, you have to think about it like you're a human. Like, you know, and you have to welcome people back in a normal way that you would interact with a human.

[00:35:34] Heather: You have to be a friend, first and foremost. And I think that's what a lot of these apps. Miss is that ability to actually, and I'm not saying pretend to be someone that you're not. I'm just saying be a friend to someone and actually allow them to have slippages, allow them to, bounce back even more so, reward them for bouncing back because it's the bouncing back, you know, that bounce back ability that's so key.

[00:35:57] Ross: gosh. Thank you. Now we're gonna continue our [00:36:00] conversation in, in part two, where we'll delve more into your work. But I just wanted to, to press pause now and ask you a question I ask all my guests, which is about your song choice, this song choice that would announce your arrival in a room, whether it's a real room or a virtual room, uh, for the next few weeks.

[00:36:16] Ross: It doesn't have to be forever, but. Where you are in your life right now, what song choice would that be?

[00:36:22] Heather: I, yeah, I, I thought about, I went for a walk with my mom this afternoon and I was thinking about, this question and, uh, I, it's just a song came to me now isn't necessarily the biggest crowd pleaser, you know, it's not gonna get people up and outta their seats if I was arriving in a room. But I think it's a song, as you say at the end there, that represents my life right now.

[00:36:42] Heather: Um, and that's Whitney Houston The Greatest Love.

[00:36:47] Heather: Um, yeah, I know, but it's, it's, it's kind of, because I've been working a lot on self-compassion and I, I, I'm giving a talk in a couple of weeks, to NHS carers on, on self-compassion. and it's, it's a, it's actually, I call it the secret habit because for me, you know, compassion underlies all of your habit change and your ability to maintain habits long term is often correlated with your ability to express compassion towards yourself.

[00:37:12] Heather: And, you know, it kind of intertwines with all we're talking about, in terms of, being. Able to pick yourself back up and be a coach rather than a critic and all of those important things. But I think the lyrics of it really, just represent that really well. Um, I, I dunno if you know it well, Ross, or you want me to read you a little, bit of the lyrics there?

[00:37:32] Ross: I, I know it, I know it pretty well. I think I know how it starts. I'm gonna have a, a little go. Excuse me. Peace supers. But I believe the children are our future. Treat them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside. Give them a sense of pride to make it easier. Let the children's la See, [00:38:00] I, I lied.

[00:38:00] Ross: I actually know it all, but, um, That's the one, isn't it? I haven't got a, oh,

[00:38:04] Ross: thank goodness.

[00:38:05] Heather: it's especially the, the chorus. Can you, can you start on, I decided long ago.

[00:38:11] Ross: I decided long ago never to walk in anyone shadow. If I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe. No matter what they take from me, they can't take away my,

[00:38:32] Ross: because the greatest love of all. Now, I'm not sure whether I got all those

[00:38:38] Heather: You got it. Perfect.

[00:38:40] Heather: Yes. Cause yeah, I just love it cuz it's like the greatest love of all is happening in me. It's inside of me, you know, and it's, it's like she talks about like, learning to love yourself essentially is the greatest love of all. Um, and you know, we're the only person we're gonna be with for our entire lives.

[00:38:57] Heather: And so, you know, we, we don't really pause. And I know you do this so well at your work cross, but a lot of us don't pause to think about. How do we treat that relationship and, and what is that relationship with ourselves? And how do we cultivate the greatest love with ourselves and throughout our lives?

[00:39:16] Ross: P Supers. That's it. Part one of my chat with Heather in the bag. Thanks so much, Heather, for being so open and generous in our conversation. There's more to look forward to in part two next week where we delve more into Heather's work on healthy habits that stick.

[00:39:37] Ross: And just to be clear, Heather's song choice when she walks into a room over the next few weeks, it will be the Whitney version that plays not mine, just in case anyone was worried. You'll find all the useful links in the show notes, particularly Heather's website, Dr. Heather McKee dot co.uk.

[00:39:54] We'd love to get your reviews. So please let us know what you think on the socials or drop me an email or a voice note on [00:40:00] WhatsApp.

[00:40:00] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

[00:40:19] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup.

[00:40:36] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now.

[00:40:49] Heather: Do you want anything?

[00:40:52] Ross: No, I've still got

[00:40:52] Ross: my cold

[00:40:53] Heather: Oh, no, no. Don't do that yourself. Do you like it?

[00:40:57] Ross: Mm. It's like nectar

[00:40:59] Heather: stop. That's disgusting. awful. I could drink cold coffee but I could never drink cold tea. And I love tea. Like, I'm like, I would have like 5, 6, 7 different types of tea in a day. You know, I'm obsessed with different teas.

[00:41:16] Heather: Not all caffeinated cuz otherwise I'd be bent off the walls.