Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.

I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.

After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.

In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.

Here's today's episode.

Today I am joined by Jessie Hewitson.

She is an award winning journalist who she's an ADHDer, she's a parent to two neurodivergent children and she's also the director of Neuro Universe, which is a company that trains other companies to better understand nd employers.

And she's also written another brilliant book called Autism how to Raise a Happy Autistic Child.

So Jesse, welcome to the podcast.

It's great to have you here.

Oh, thank you so much.

I'm really pleased.

I've got your book in front of me which is ADHD how to Raise a Happy ADHD Child.

And I was just saying before that I just, I think it's such a helpful, helpful book for so many parents who are navigating this new system, this new world of advocating children, understanding themselves and wanting to do the best they can to support their children, but also looking as parents.

How can we help ourselves while we're also helping our children?

And it can feel very overwhelming at times.

I think your book is really very helpful and very empowering.

I'd love to hear a little bit about, I guess, what led you to writing these books.

Obviously being a parent, you know, to neurodivergent children.

Can you tell us a little bit about your backstory?

I guess from pre diagnosis to where you are now?

Yeah, so, I mean, I grew up in London.

My memories of school really are not knowing what I'm meant to be doing, trying to copy other people's work, just so bored difficulties with friendships, etc.

Etc.

Ended up working as a journalist for 20 odd years.

Had my eldest son who was autistic and then going through this kind of grieving process after I discovered he was autistic, feeling like the worst thing in the world had happened to us.

And I basically had this baby or toddler who was very unhappy and I assumed it was the autism's fault that he was unhappy.

And then I wrote a book because I wanted.

There was just such poor information.

This was 10 years ago back then.

And you know, the concept neurodiversity wasn't discussed in the general public and it was all just so doom laid and everything.

But I wanted to write something better.

And in writing the book, something amazing happened that I realized actually it wasn't the autism that had made him unhappy.

It was my lack of knowledge about autism and my fears of autism, really.

So by interviewing autistic people, some of whom became really good friends of mine, I lost my fear of autism and also developed that appreciation for difference and, and then sort of discovered that once you've got a child who you feel either is happy or you can see that they, they're on that way, then suddenly difference isn't so sort of scary anymore.

What was that fear of autism that you had?

What was the fear that you felt that maybe was so subconscious you didn't even know that there was fear there?

Yeah, well, I think it was ignorance because, I mean, again, I think it's easy to forget, you know, how autism was betrayed even 10 years ago.

My eldest is 15.

So really when you watch TV programs about autistic people, it was people in distress.

It was, you know, you know, people and parents having an incredibly tough time.

It wasn't people like my son.

You know, it wasn't.

You weren't looking at these scenes thinking, oh, I hope that happens to us.

Really.

It was such a negative misery narrative, really.

So I think it was all that stereotyping and bias.

And also, you know, I think we all like to think we're open minded.

But then something challenged me and I realized I wasn't open minded at all.

Until, you know, I had this huge experience in my life.

And then when I was interviewing autistic adults for the book, you know, I've.

I found what they were saying.

You know, I didn't just understand it, I felt it viscerally, especially with the women.

And so, you know, I kind of afterwards thought, oh, maybe I'm in that sort of gray area between neurotypical and autistic.

And maybe that's why I understood their point so well.

And then over time I realized I was autistic too.

And then I, you know, got myself assessed and they, it was confirmed officially.

And so now I wrote this book about ADHD and a similar process happened.

I was speaking to ADHD adults and once again, particularly with women, I found their stories were my stories.

And I was just thinking, oh my God, am I just like ridiculously suggestible or is it possible that I am both of these things?

And then, you know, I did to get myself assess for adhd and I'm.

I am both.

Yeah.

I mean, what's interesting is that I speak to a lot of women who actually have the ADHD assessment first and then the autism assessment or the diagnosis comes.

The more I speak to different clinicians, we're getting to hopefully to a point where we go for an assessment for both and we're able to see which one maybe is the more dominant one or like how they sit together and often how they collide and being able to recognize, like you say, in this sort of non stigmatized, non scary, scary way of, okay, so that was when my autism shows up, that's when my ADHD shows up.

That's when they work together, that's when they don't.

Because like you say, this is, it's all about awareness.

And many of us are ignorant and many of us still, you know, maybe our generation do have this stigmatized look at of autism in, in one way, but it's trying to understand the spectrum and how it shows up and how actually it's not as uncommon as we think it is.

And being able to help each other in these family dynamics is how we grow and thrive with our neurodivergence.

And I guess that's what the focus of your book is, isn't it?

Is helping other families, what you went through, maybe who haven't done as much research as you have to start being able to welcome it into the family, live with it, accept it, grow with it.

I'd love to hear a little bit about, I guess, the insights, whether it was any insights that you got when you were writing this book that really helped you with your family?

Yeah, loads.

So, I mean, I really.

The executive function chapter was a real eye opener because I had underestimated how vast the impact of executive dysfunction is on people's lives.

And actually, when I was researching, I remember reading something that said some people think that actually your executive function skills is a better predictor of the grades you're going to get than iq.

And I was just like, gosh, you know, that really hit me that school is all about executive function skills and actually careers as well.

And you know, I thought back to colleagues, colleagues that have done so well and really risen the ranks, but maybe not be the most talented.

And the flip side, you've got these incredibly talented people at work, potentially neurodivergent that don't manage to climb the ranks and then you just feel like life is one endless test of executive function skills.

That's a really actually fascinating insight.

You're so right.

Because if you think about it, the kids are judged on.

They forget their homework, their handwriting, their organization skills, revision exam conditions and like you say, it's the.

Those moments of brilliance, yes, they may be noticed or kind of celebrated but all the other things are more, it seems more, more important, doesn't it?

And I wonder, as we get more aware and we start, you know, more people are understanding like how we can start changing things especially in the academic system because it is still so archaic in that Respect, isn't it?

100%.

And even specialist schools, you know, don't always have the knowledge of this area and the impact of it.

But also, I mean, you know, I'm not a specialist in executive function, I'm a person that's done my research.

You know, I'm not convinced the aim of the game is to come up with neurotypical levels of executive functioning skills.

I think we just have to build in systems where we can and also accept what we just can't easily do and let ourselves off the hook for it.

So I think we like everything like communication, like everything else, focus.

We need to find our own middle path really for what we're striving for and aiming for.

Because I think I'm never going to be brilliantly organized.

And I do know actually some ADHDers that are, they've got amazing Excel spreadsheets for their holiday packing.

I'm thinking of one thread in particular but the cost is probably quite significant.

Right?

Really.

But another thing I really enjoyed learning more about was dopamine and the neurotransmitters.

So I felt I really put a lot of time and effort into trying to understand the brain science as much as I could being a non scientist.

And so I thought it was fascinating to learn about dopamine's role.

It sometimes gets explained as the happiness drug, which it isn't.

It's the bedrock of executive function and it's there to encourage us to do the sort of more sensible long term thing.

And also you know that ADHD is, we know we don't have consistent supply of dopamine but I didn't know till writing the book that it was because we have these neurotransmitters that are flushing away the dopamine, the transporters before they can do their job.

And also that leaving something to the last minute or Making your activity more humorous or more novel that you are self medicating because you're providing yourself as cortisol and you're providing yourself with the serotonin that also helps you to focus.

So I found all that absolutely fascinating.

Yeah.

I think what many of us don't give ourselves enough credit for is the fact that we have probably built unknowingly these dopamine scaffolding systems to kind of get us through those very boring or unmotivating tasks or get us over the line in the very last minute.

And many of us have hacked our own systems just out of pure necessity.

And what many of us, I think, and maybe I'll speak for myself, is that we kind of always felt like we were cheating or we were doing something wrong or not doing things how adults should do it.

But actually, now that we're able to understand ourselves and understand, okay, this is where we have a deficiency.

This is where we have an area where we really struggle, we can pat ourselves on the back and say, actually this is how you were trying to get over something that was neurologically going on in your brain that you had no idea.

Idea about 100.

I think that's.

I think it's really empowering for people to have this information that, you know, that you've put in your book because it's validation and it's a recognition of all the challenges and the exhaustion that we've gone through.

And essentially, as adults, we don't want our kids to kind of go through that.

Like, yes, we want to build their resilience.

Yes, we want to hone their own sort of self responsibility, but essentially we want them to thrive and we want them to do well and lean into all the good that they have and get that support or the advocacy that they deserve.

I wonder from writing your book, what changed from, as you as a parent when you were advocating for your children and you were speaking to the school cause.

I know there's a lot in this book about how you can advocate for your children.

Yeah.

So one practical change, actually, it's not so much about advocating at school.

It's more helping kids to be happy is validating more than I had been.

You know, I had a conversation with the psychiatrist and she said to me, like, no matter how much you're validating your child's emotions, do it for longer.

She said it is absolute magic.

You can't do it enough.

So she basically said, sit in your child's misery with them until they're ready to come out.

And that phrase really stuck in my mind.

So I, while I was writing it, we were going through a very tough time as a family and I did find myself, you know, kind of experimenting with validating more, that is saying, you know, I understand why that's so tough.

I'd be really upset to not leaping to a conclusion.

We all know we should do this.

This is nothing new.

But what was completely eye opening for me was how successful it was to do it for longer than I had been doing it previously and what the impact was.

So I found that my children calmed down quicker and I felt were more likely to come back to me, to talk to me about these really important stuff.

And I had a structure and a plan when I potentially was a bit stressed hearing their unhappiness too.

So that was amazing.

In terms of support at school, I mean, I feel ADHD is getting a really, really bad deal at school.

I don't think we can really compare between autistic and ADHD people in terms of who has it the worst because both camps are not having a great time at all.

But I think there is such an absence of knowledge with ADHD that isn't true of autism.

There's no, you know, I couldn't find any, like, really decent bodies of research about how we should be adapting our teaching styles for ADHD brains.

We talk about dopamine.

I just think how cruel is it to sit a kid in school, you know, especially early on when we have to do loads of subjects we don't want to do, where they've got no chance of summoning the dopamine, really, and we just leave them there with them to wrestle with their own brain and not know why, you know, why they can't make their brain work really.

And then everything about school doesn't work for ADHD is in its current form, really.

And the fact that it's sort of seen as a behavioral or mental health issue when really it's its own distinct cognitive style.

And that has not.

I think we're quite a long way from the education system realizing that, you know, I agree.

Don't give ADHD as just one thing to do.

Give them tasks that they can flip between.

And also, I think it's really, really unfair for teachers to explain something once and then refuse to explain it again.

Because teachers still have this Victorian attitude of, well, I've explained it once, and if you weren't paying attention, that's your fault, really.

I mean, I'm not saying teachers are doing this deliberately, but, you know, that's just setting up ADHD kids to fail, really.

And I do remember, you know, myself, that kind of terror of not knowing what you're meant to be doing and just waiting to be told off.

Because you're going to fail and you're going to annoy your teacher and you're trying to copy your peers.

Not copy.

You're trying to search for clues.

And that anxiety is compounded, isn't it?

Because you're just trying to listen, but you're processing skills.

It doesn't work with that.

Exactly what you just say.

I mean, I remember so well always being that person saying, what did they just say?

Can you just repeat that to me?

And I knew I was listening, but it just didn't go in.

I need repetition.

For me, it's repeat, replacement, write, listen to it again in a different way.

You know, for me, listening to podcasts, listening to anything on audio is so good for me because that's how I process.

But at school it's like, well, if you don't process it this way, you've got no other alternative and you just have to deal with it and you're.

Not trying hard enough.

Yeah, exactly.

And you need to do something to fix yourself.

Fix yourself.

And I think, you know, like, if we looked at this sort of perfect scenario, like, imagine if that child said, oh, you know, I don't know what I'm meant to be doing, and they are allowed to say that.

And the teacher said, oh, you know, where you zoned out.

I do that too.

That's.

We all do that and, you know, normalize that.

Zoning out, you know, I just think that would be so, so amazing.

Or if we talked about that, if we talked about rejection, sensitivity, you know, if children knew about their own executive function difficulties and understood that's why you're finding these things so difficult.

But teachers don't even yet have the vocabulary really, or, you know, the knowledge to identify why students are findings.

Finding things difficult.

Yeah, I mean, in an ideal world, I would love to see all schools going through neurodivergent training.

You know, I know what you do with your business.

And yes, we need it in companies, we need it everywhere.

But I really do believe from every year there needs to be some form of, like, refresher, you know, like a day, a day of all teachers have to attend neurodivergent training, understanding, going into workshops, helping to spot the signs of ADHD and autism, dyslexia, being able to almost screen for it, which I know doesn't take long.

It doesn't have to be this big, long official clinical assessment.

It can just be a teacher going, oh, I'm noticing that girl, she's chewing her fingers and she's tapping her foot and she's looking out the window and she looks a bit sort of lost and almost like, okay, I'm going to put her through that screening process almost, you know, from the Department of Education.

They have to sort of tick it.

And again, I don't know all the, all the language I know that teaches time, but these are kid, this is kids education, this is their self esteem, their self confidence.

You know, the amount of women that I've worked with who are brilliantly clever, highly educated to their own, you know, unfortunately they've gone through burnout and lots of mental health challenges to get to where they've got to because they knew that that potential was there.

But they still suffer.

Their self esteem and their self confidence and their self worth has taken such a battering from what a teacher said to them back in primary school.

Or they still, that inner child hasn't healed after they were told by a teacher that they're not good enough.

And so I just feel like if we can get there as early as possible in academia where there's just this ecosystem of kids understanding parents, understanding teachers and none of this is like you say, it's normalized and it's not stigmatized.

And the good news is, and I always like to say that I have spoken to teachers and I have spoken to people who are really doing their best.

You know, there's actually a lot of teachers with adhd, but you know, I think that's because they probably like the novelty of teaching different things and the hustle and the bustle and the passion that they have for education.

And a lot of that is sort of like neurodivergent traits.

And so I do take my hat off to many teachers who are doing their very best.

My kids neurodivergence shows up in so many different ways and some have the anxiety, some don't, some have the dyslexia or at least one of them.

I think there's a crossover with autism that's not been officially diagnosed, but even they think it is as well.

I know in the book you talk about pda, which I'd love to kind of go a little bit, you know, into, and I know you've got another child with chronic fatigue and how we can have the very hyperactive, restless child and we can also have like you say, with one that is needs a lot of downtime and needs to recoup energy and decompress and all those things.

And you know, as parents, that it's hard work being neurodivergent, parenting neurodivergent kids and managing the needs of the different styles of neurodivergence as well.

Are you happy to discuss a little bit about the presentations of what.

What's going on in your children and I guess what you find challenging and difficult and I guess what you have found helpful as well.

Yeah.

So I talked at the beginning about how, you know, if you can make your children happy, you're not so worried about difference.

But the honest answer is I don't know if I would say my children are.

Well, they're not consistently happy at the moment.

And that is, you know, I've written two books on how to raise happy autistic and happy ADHD children.

So I want to be absolutely clear.

I'm writing this not as a person who's done everything right, but flawed parent, you know, in this, dealing with these systemic issues that we all are.

So, yeah, my eldest has chronic fatigue.

You know, as we mentioned, he's ADHD as well.

The ADHD didn't get picked up until he was about sort of 13 or 14, because I didn't really know enough about ADHD.

Now it's completely obvious he's very inattentive, but at the time, I didn't know about that.

And the youngest, yeah, he's much more sort of presentation extrovert.

And then when I found out he was autistic, that, like, what?

Because I'd written a book on autism with a chapter on how to spot if your child's autistic.

And I was mortified for someone to say he needs an autism assessment.

I turned up arrogantly saying to them, I don't think he is.

Yes, he may have traits.

And then to say, yes, he is autistic and it's pda.

So really what I then learned was that what had blinded me to him being autistic was the PDA presentation.

Can you just explain what PDA is?

Because there might be people that might not know the terminology.

Yeah, sure.

So it's called pathological demand avoidance.

Sometimes it's shortened to demand avoidance, and it is on the autism spectrum.

And so there's some debate whether it is a distinct profile within the autism spectrum.

So you get autistic people who are pda or whether it's a sign of an autistic person in distress or the sort of accumulation of being in the wrong environment, and that results in demand Avoidance.

For what it's worth, my instinct is it's the former, that it's something that there is, you know, some difference in people's brain chemistry that makes them pda.

The best way I can explain it, and I also want to preface this to say it's horribly under researched.

I don't think anyone has got all the answers.

What research we have suggests that it's mainly all DHD kids as in ADHD and autism.

But I, how I make sense of it is that the brain is interpreting demands as threat.

So for example, if you make a demand, what they called so called ordinary demand of a PDA kid, then it might trigger a highly anxious response in them.

But the trickiness with PDA is it's inconsistent.

So if your PDA child's having a good day, they might be able to manage a few demands, but if they're having a bad day, they can't manage any demands whatsoever.

So it can be difficult when you're explaining to relatives or the school and then your child, you know, someone tells them to do something and they trot off and do.

Can make some people doubt it.

But in reality, like so much of what we're talking about, it's a fluctuating thing.

But I think generally all demands are causing some level of anxiety.

It's just whether the child is masking or able to, to kind of regulate themselves after the anxiety.

Yeah, I think that's, that's really well explained.

Again, I've seen those traits in two of my children and they're the most similar to each other.

It's very challenging as a parent, especially when you don't understand that it's pda.

I again, they, it showed up for them when they were younger.

It was hard work.

It was really, really hard work.

Can you do this?

No, I'm not doing that.

It's bedtime.

Not, not going to have this drink.

I'm not drinking.

Please, please drink.

You're going to be dehydrated and it's almost like you think they're doing this on purpose to wind you up and then your regulation is tested and then you kind of feel terrible as a parent that you've like lost your, you know, lost your insurance shit.

Yeah, regularly.

Yeah, because it is.

We're tested.

We're tested.

And, and I had a podcast guest on probably about a year or two, 18 months ago and we talked about low demand parenting for PDA kids and how that can be so helpful for not only the child, but also for the parent.

Because we're taking those unnecessary demands off.

Like the things that we think is like please eat this healthy meal or please don't sit at the table like this, or turn the iPad off.

And so many things that would normally erupt in a family argument that how can we mitigate those times where we do know that child is prone to dysregulation or they've come home from school and they really do need to decompress, or they've been in a big social environment and the last thing they need is to sit at the table and eat with a knife and fork and have a conversation.

You know, these expectations that we put on tip, you know, not in, I'm going to say inverted comms like normal people.

I struggled with that because for me, you know, sitting at the table, table manners is important.

Speaking with respect, respect is important, all of that.

And I still have that.

But I kind of tweak my expectations when I know that my child really does need to be left alone.

Yeah, I mean, it's intensely challenging.

And the absolute honest truth is I'm totally signed up to ADHD and autistic brain types being 100% about strengths and challenges in exactly the same way neurotypical brains are.

I mean, neurotypical brains are just my majority.

They're not the right brain, but when it comes to pda, you know, and I feel like I might regret this, but, you know, I feel like if I could take it away, I would because it makes my son's life very, very difficult and it makes our whole family's life difficult.

That's not to say we're not doing stuff about it.

He can cope with very, very minimal demands.

Over the past 18 months he's been out of school.

I mean, the majority of PGA kids are not in full time education.

He just had a breakdown basically because of loads of stuff.

You know, he was in a mainstream school, not properly supporting because they didn't have the money to support him.

Nobody at the local authority had built a school for my son or thought about his needs really in their planning.

So there was no school place.

And you know, he had quite significant breakdown at the age of nine.

And we were dealing with with really, really distressed behavior.

We're coming out the other side after 18 months and low demand parenting is the only way to go.

I actually, as an autistic person, I'm not that sold by everyone sitting at the meal anyway.

I get the idea of togetherness as a family, but for me, and I definitely see it in my two sons, it's not a particularly relaxing thing to do.

And I feel like we can chat at other times.

So I sort of feel like, why am I putting everyone through this?

We don't enjoy it.

I'm not sure the concept is right for us.

You know, if we were reimagining family life as autistic people, I don't think there would be that same setup.

Although I do like doing it once every Sunday.

You know, I'm not there yet, but that's, that's my dream, really.

Nobody can sit still for dinner.

I mean, it's just too taxing, etc.

Etc.

And, you know, making unstructured chit chat, what's to love, basically?

So basically with low demand parenting, we don't really have a hierarchy where we're in charge.

And that is the truth of it.

Because really we have to operate in a process of collaboration with my son because pda, they don't.

Again, I hate generalizing, but it is true with my son.

He doesn't observe that hierarchy.

He doesn't think, because you're an adult or a school teacher, I'm going to listen to you and do what you say.

It just doesn't work like that.

So you can either argue and the argument, the intensity argument is going to go up and up and up and your child's mental health is going to go down and down and down.

Or you do it a different way and it's, you know, it seems so counterintuitive.

You're going to spend 40 to 50% of your time thinking, oh my God, am I raising a monster here?

Because your child is getting their own way a lot of the time.

But I really do believe in my sort of more rational moments that we're not raising monsters, we're raising people who, you know, can.

We're lowering their anxiety, you know, and really sometimes when my son, you know, pushes all my buttons and I do lose my shit because it is intensely challenging and you know, I have come close to a breakdown, really.

Just having a child out school for 18 months dealing with PDA.

It just can't be underestimated how exhausting it is to have this kind of very long negotiation or battle to get them to do anything.

And it feels like the stakes are very high that you're doing it in the moment.

And if you get it wrong, there could be this really horrible, horrible consequence for everyone.

And you know, and so, so I try in the moment to think if I just give in to my instinct to get angry and go head to head with my child because I want, I want to be in control.

I should be in control.

All I'm going to do is make my child feel more shit about himself because I'm going to push him into a meltdown.

Things are going to be a consequence of that and he's just going to feel deep shame afterwards because he will have behaved in a way that will make him feel awful.

And I want to limit that as much as possible.

And I don't succeed, but I do every so often manage to catch myself in that.

And I think also, you know, being a PDA parent is really a lesson in trying to give up that sort of feeling of caring about other people's judgment.

Now obviously I'm not there yet.

I'm a people pleaser.

I care deeply, instinctively about other people's judgment.

But I was at an NVR parenting course which is non violent resistance, which I AMS had recommended.

We did, you know, very excellent for PDA parenting.

I absolutely did not want to go, you know, parenting courses.

Not my idea of fun really.

But I went and it was amazing and it was just like the single best thing I've done really.

But so what NVR teaches you is really to.

It's about de escalation.

That is your number one goal, is de escalation.

They talk about striking work, the iron is cold.

So if your child has done something and you're really unhappy with it, don't, you know, sort of go toe to toe in the moment.

Wait till they're calm and, you know, sort of prioritize the connection between you two in those distress moments, but also give them space and, you know, you've got your sort of strategies really for calming them down.

But then afterwards you can say, look, that that was horrible for you.

I found it stressful.

Can we work together to find, you know, a different way of doing things?

But there was one parent and he had this really amazing anecdote about he went round a museum with his PDA son.

Well, I assume the son was pda, I don't know.

But adhd certainly there was this sort of, the child was having a meltdown and there was this huge sort of sweary ruckus going on via the child and the strangers.

You know, he felt like he was getting judgmental looks from other parents.

A security guard was looming into place and was about to take over.

And the dad said he just had a really powerful thought which was, fuck you, fuck you all, because you don't have to pick up the pieces later on.

So I don't have to care what you think.

And so he said to the security guard, basically, back off.

I know how to deal with this.

You don't.

He let his child just run around swearing, screaming until this child calmed down.

Then they went home and much, much later they talked about it.

But had he done what people wanted him to do, which was the performative telling off, you know, that would have only extended the child's distress, extended the meltdown, and extended, you know, the sort of disruption for everyone.

There was no good to come of it.

So when I'm in a situation and I want to feel embarrassed or awkward what people are thinking about my parenting, or I just have that fuck you in my head and it's, it's quite a useful.

I mean, I don't, I don't think about it aggressively.

It's just quite a useful two words to remind myself it doesn't matter.

Yeah, it's a useful two words in many, many situations.

Thank you so much for sharing that, because I think I know so many other people listening will see this presentation, perhaps either in themselves or their children.

And, you know, listen, as a person with adhd, I understand that need to have choice, autonomy.

I want to be able to make a decision that impacts me and I don't want someone to tell me what to do.

Hence the reason why I work for myself.

I'm an entrepreneur.

That's why so many ADHD is, are entrepreneurs.

And I do wonder if that PDA kind of like becomes a bit more socialized as we get older and we understand the conditioning that we've kind of got to, you know, whether that's through masking or just from, like, seeing what, you know, people, how we have to sort of behave and it's morphed into this deep justice seeking.

And things matter and we want to make choices that are right for us.

And like, you say this, like you, I'm going to do it my way type thing.

But being a parent with PDA involved is very hard.

And I just want to touch on what you said about the shame, the shame for the children afterwards, because I've had this as well where one of my kids has had the biggest public meltdown.

I've been pinched, scratched, kicked.

No shame at all in this situation.

Like, when it was happening, I sort of had to just grit my teeth and just deal with the situation.

And thankfully, through understanding this and my own regulation skills, I kind of kept as calm as I could.

It was still very challenging.

But then within half an hour, an hour later, they'd calmed down that shame kicked in.

I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry.

I don't know what happened.

I don't know why I did that.

I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry.

And I don't want to feed into that shame spiral because I've seen it happen in different family members of mine, different generations ago where that shame is.

Still quite real and, and no kid wants to behave that way.

I don't believe it.

It's beyond people's control.

Like so it's really important we really clear that wasn't your fault, you were in a bad environment, that wasn't, you know, about you.

But I think, I mean again, I know it's developing knowledge, but I think demand avoidance, every human being has demand avoidance.

But I'm assuming that with, you know, neurodivergent people it steps up a gear.

But with pda, I think it steps up another level.

And I think with research that has been done on pda, adults, the mental health comes, are absolutely dreadful.

I mean, I will spare you.

But that's why it's so important to the low demand parenting because, you know, and I often think I've got bigger fish to fry than whatever the kind of social niceties that are expected of me to instill in my child.

I also think we can get really carried away thinking, well, if my child hasn't built up these social skills by the age of seven, they're going to never know how to behave in public.

And that's just not true.

You know, I, as a autistic woman, a lot of my social skills have developed in my 30s, really when I started to figure stuff out.

So I think, you know, it's, we don't need to prioritize social skills or oh my God, what happens if they work in an office?

How are they going to ever work with the boss?

You know, the world of work is changing, etc.

So I think just prioritize your child's self esteem and you know, lessen that feeling of shame and give them the language for that is demand avoidance.

And you find this hard because of this.

You know, let's think of how we can change situations so it's not so hard for you and do that first and worry about sort of social skills and how's your child going to work in an office later on.

That's my view.

Yeah, I mean, as a, as a mother and someone who's also autistic and dealing with that and the pressures of PDA in a family, how do you look after yourself.

And how do you kind of find those times to decompress and self regulate and so you can have the resources to deal with these very challenging situations.

I mean, I deal with it badly, in all honesty.

I can, I can sort of know what you're meant to do, but I'm not good at applying to myself and I suspect you're probably a bit like me.

I always take on far too much.

Always, always, always.

You know, I quit my job actually when my son was having difficulty at work.

I was in a very sort of senior role on a newspaper and I quit my job because obviously I needed to be at home with him and it was absolutely the right thing to do.

But then I wrote a book, I co founded a company, you know, and I'm doing journalism.

So I've, I've dug myself into a hole if I'm honest.

And I've had some very difficult times in the last month because, because my son's been having a difficult time.

So I'm having to recalibrate again.

But I've got children, their support needs are quite high.

But if you, if you met them, if I took them out, people wouldn't see it.

I had a chat with my eldest psychiatrist and she said, do you realize you're a carer?

And do you know, it really stopped me in my tracks and it made me burst into tears because it was kind of like, well, that's why I'm finding it so hard.

And I think in a way acknowledge that you are taking a quite a significant carers role.

And if you are that thing, chances are you are, then you need respite care.

And so then work out how do I get respite care?

Okay, do I need to speak to the local authority?

Can we afford it ourselves or are there family and friends I can explain the situation about?

Talk to friends because I think often this, this behavior happens in closed doors.

It's absolutely exhausting for us.

It's, you know, even though I communicate for a living, I find it really difficult to explain to people what the last 18 months have been like for us.

So I think, I think recognize, recognize your own support needs as much as possible and do practical stuff to try and manage your workload and your own happiness.

Yeah, thank you.

I just want to say thank you so much for first of all the validation because that hits hard and I'm sure for a lot of people that will make them realize that is why I'm so exhausted and drained and I find this so difficult in many ways.

And you Know, many of us are wanting to.

We have lots of other things that we want to fulfill and ambitions and we have, you know, brains that are fizzing with ideas and we want to, you know, run our businesses or, you know, enjoy our careers.

But we're also, you know, there's a lot of needs going on in our family as well.

And that juggle, you know, is always there and the balance is probably always slightly off.

And I'm exactly with you.

I over commit, I want to do it all.

I get overwhelmed and then I get burnout and it's just kind of, you know, and I'm constantly tweaking and changing and pulling back and like you say that recalibration of like, okay, what, what do I say no to now?

Like, what do I let go of even though I really want to do it because the needs of my family are there.

So I just think your honesty and your vulnerability is really, really refreshing.

And I know that this episode is going to help a lot of people.

And your book, I want to say it's called ADHD how to Raise a Happy or ADHD Child.

How can they contact you?

I do get lots of people contacting me all the time through the autism book.

So yeah, people can always get hold of me on social media.

You know, I'm on x, I'm on LinkedIn.

But also if you go on Neuro Universe's website, you'll see, you know, the contact email.

I spend quite a lot of time actually helping families, you know, with how to deal with situations in school.

So I will always kind of reply to people and if I haven't replied, it's because I haven't seen it.

Yeah, or maybe you're trying to deal with other things.

Yes, yes, exactly.

Maybe have some boundaries as well.

But Jesse, thank you so, so much.

I'm going to put all the details in the show notes so people can find you and it's been a real pleasure having this conversation.

Thank you.

I've loved it too.

If this episode has been helpful for you and you're looking for more tools and more guidance, my brand new book, the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Toolkit is out now.

You can find it wherever you buy your books from.

You can also check out the audiobook if you do prefer to listen to me.

I have narrated it all myself.

Thank you so much for being here and I will see you for the next episode.