There's no trick for that.

Like you have to do the first work yourself.

And unfortunately, I think, you know, like the problems with 120,000 songs is that music is no different from sports or anything else.

Like you need to have a talent, you need to have people appreciate you.

Just because you have a recording facility or you believe you can sing or you can record it doesn't give you the right to be successful in music.

And I think that is what I think the biggest mismatch today that the expectation is that people just believe I'm uploading to Spotify and now I gotta be a rock star.

You know, like nothing has changed.

It's just that it opens, is opens up for stories today that did not happen 20 years ago.

But the competition, because of, you know, cost of recordings, the eastern adult getting it upload, paying a ten dollar fee to aggreg to get it up, like that is what creates the massive amount of inflows.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that there's this demand for all that music, you know.

True.

Yes.

Right.

It's not even possible to consume it all.

There's too much.

So I love what you said there.

You said three things, I think.

Well, more than that, but the three points I got talent.

Number one, you have to have talent.

Right.

And I love that you compared it to being an athlete because that speaks for itself, right?

We all grew up as kids on the playground, many of us did, with big hoop dreams or whatever, NFL dreams.

And you, it, you can't fake it.

It's got to be there.

The talent has to be there and it has to surpass.

You mentioned having 10 fans to 100.

But in the same respect, you have to have, you have to have the respect of those people.

So if you're trying to cut through, then people have to really see something in you that is different.

Right.

So the talent, patience.

Because patience and hard work go together.

Right.

You can't work hard today and not tomorrow and then get back to it next week.

So that consistent hard work, really believing in yourself and then having the patience to endure because it's going to take a lot of ups and downs, it's going to take a lot of disappointment on the way and a lot of people give up way too easy on the dream.

And the dream's not for everybody for I think for those three reasons and more so interesting.

You're, you have I mentioned I said it off the top, the pioneer of the modern playlist.

And you've, you've spoken on that.

I Want to shift gears a little bit because you've gone.

I mean, you have the book.

We want to talk about that a little bit as well.

We need to.

But also your current work with TSX Entertainment, you've changed the game again.

Can you tell us about that?

I mean, what, how you got started here, what you're doing.

Just tell us a little bit about your work there.

So TSX there was.

It was an interesting thing, you know, like it and going back to the music industry and the different phases.

When I was at Spotify, you know, like one of the things that I always felt is that it needs to be a physical kind of interaction between artists and fans as well.

And I know ever doing all these big campaigns with artists was that the number one ask was a little bit like, okay, Times Square was something magical for everyone.

Like if they talk about campaigns.

And we all grew up, we remember, you know, at the TRL days.

And when I came to New York, I always refer Times Square to like the epicenter of entertainment.

It has a cloud.

But when I came here, I realized it was mostly like so many shops and you know, fast food.

It was.

Yeah, when I, when I was here in the early days, like even Toys R Us was like an immersive experience with fairy wheels and stuff like that.

And you had like the Virgin Megastore and it.

And the concerts around the MTV and there was like school kids there every day.

It was like something incredible.

So one, the Ford process was more about the effect from the beginning was like, okay, someone needs to take the responsibility for what was used to be MTV and these record stores.

A place where fans and artists can meet.

And so I went down there, you know, like in the Spotify days and started looking at availability and say like, I think Spotify should have a location at Times Square.

And one thing led to an arter.

And I got offered from like a big real estate developer to.

With this crazy concept that you have built this TSX Broadway building a $3 billion projects.

But it was a retail project and retail had basically died, you know, in New York.

So they were.

They liked the way of leading with entertainment.

So the hypothesis was more about like, okay, there's only two ways you can be in the.

In the entertainment industry.

Either you have assets that everybody wants to have, or you write checks.

There's only two ways to be there.

And I felt like the fact of having, you know, like a stage, a Times Square and what that could build into and what you can create was an assets that I know that, that's a perfect launch pad and Times Square has the cloud of being like an amplifier for the world.

So I remember in the early days when I say like okay, the plan is let's have artists come in, play for free, we bring in sponsors, we amplify the message, blah blah, blah.

The problem is always you do that is that people say like they ask question, why would artists play for free?

You have to understand something about artists is that artists in general don't care about money at all.

So depending on your conversations, they only care about reach and growth.

And another thing they care about is a little bit like looking good for their peers.

That's a huge, huge thing.

True.

So the whole concept, what TSX was really trying out to see, could we with scarcity be very selective, finding a way how we can create these big moments and leveraging like the model of reach and earn media and stuff like that to have artists perform and sponsors paying for the event and have fans experience something really incredible as a surprise thing with the biggest artists in the world.

So the problem is always when you start with the first one because the risk for the artist is way bigger than for you.

But since I had a great relationship with Post Malone's team and the management because we worked together, you know, during the time when Post broke through and Spotify was a big part of that.

Yeah I was able to convince them and Post like you should do these around the release.

You should be the first one.

And this is before the building is not even close to open.

It's basically like a concrete jungle.

But we could open the door since we had to build this pop up experience.

It was a, it was a crazy experience because you need to convince the city and they have never had this amount of people security and it's like it's, it's.

I don't want to go into every detail because all this is in the book book.

But if you read it, you're going to see how dramatic it is.

So when we did the Post show, it's, it's all these things.

Like it starts raining, like there's no people there.

Is this going to happen?

Like how do you spread the world when you're not allowed to spread the world.

But the fantastic thing was like, man, it happens because for some weird reason, you know, like the, the jungle voice or whatever it's called, the Jungle drum moves so quickly, you know, so eventually when he steps out on that stage, the sun came out like you have these amount of people and it turns out to these, you know gigantic amplified event that we won eight Clio words for it and that opened the floodgates.

And the phone to me the day after was like every artist, I was going to say every but a lot of big artists managed to reach out and then we sound like we want to be very selective so we, we felt like we didn't want to do the same thing.

So the next thing we did we wanted like amplify it up but then I was like Jungkook from BTS which become insane.

And the third one we did was Shakira which was like a massive, massive because we want to bring in a female, we want to do something that was Latin and all these got live streamed and it was merchandise sales.

So what I think was interesting was that when we looked at the numbers of these shows they were almost on like super bowl levels when it comes to reach and earn media.

But the biggest reason for why that happens was the reason it was a surprise.