1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,809 So I dunno if any of you have been, uh, got the email or you just ha arriving 2 00:00:03,809 --> 00:00:09,390 here at random, but I was sharing a story about, uh, as Frances put it, 3 00:00:09,509 --> 00:00:14,639 middle class problems when, when the woman who does your ironing is apologetic 4 00:00:14,639 --> 00:00:18,606 about her pricing, and she kindly pointed out spelling mistakes as well. 5 00:00:23,658 --> 00:00:27,978 For those of you who, uh, didn't read the email, I'll share the story 6 00:00:28,563 --> 00:00:30,588 that inspired the conversation. 7 00:00:31,038 --> 00:00:36,718 Uh, lovely Shirley, she, she does ironing for us because, A, I am lazy 8 00:00:36,723 --> 00:00:41,248 and BI actually enjoy ironing, but there are better things that I need to do, 9 00:00:41,578 --> 00:00:43,618 uh, with my time other than ironing. 10 00:00:44,158 --> 00:00:48,748 She always sends me a text saying, this is the price, it took me this 11 00:00:48,748 --> 00:00:51,568 much time, I hope that's okay. 12 00:00:52,138 --> 00:00:55,138 And I, we've been, she'd been working, we're doing ironing for us for like, 13 00:00:55,618 --> 00:00:58,918 at least two or three years, four actually before the pandemic, so I 14 00:00:58,918 --> 00:01:00,388 know now there's, there's that thing. 15 00:01:00,388 --> 00:01:04,288 I know how to timeframe things now, if it was before the pandemic, 16 00:01:04,378 --> 00:01:05,338 at least two or three years. 17 00:01:05,338 --> 00:01:08,038 But anyway, but every single time is it okay? 18 00:01:08,278 --> 00:01:08,908 Is it okay? 19 00:01:09,238 --> 00:01:11,818 And to be honest, it was amazing until she said It's okay. 20 00:01:12,418 --> 00:01:13,123 Because like, Hmm. 21 00:01:14,128 --> 00:01:14,723 Is it okay? 22 00:01:16,193 --> 00:01:19,523 Is that, is that, why are you doubting that price? 23 00:01:19,583 --> 00:01:19,613 Mm. 24 00:01:20,183 --> 00:01:20,573 Uh. 25 00:01:20,603 --> 00:01:24,173 'cause now I'm thinking, well, do, I, I don't feel so comfortable now 26 00:01:24,173 --> 00:01:26,123 paying this much money for ironing. 27 00:01:26,573 --> 00:01:33,593 Uh, when I was before that, that, that little three little four words 28 00:01:33,598 --> 00:01:35,963 question, uh, sentence, I was like, oh. 29 00:01:36,353 --> 00:01:37,343 I was like, fine until now. 30 00:01:37,343 --> 00:01:38,243 I was like, oh, okay. 31 00:01:38,423 --> 00:01:44,243 So it made me think, oh, how, what does, how do we turn up, uh, in our businesses? 32 00:01:44,803 --> 00:01:48,553 Whether it's presenting our prices or sending out a proposal or telling someone 33 00:01:48,553 --> 00:01:52,863 a price, what energy are we bringing that and how damaging I'm gonna say, 34 00:01:53,163 --> 00:01:58,453 or how problematic it can be when you turn up with that apologetic energy. 35 00:01:59,123 --> 00:02:03,673 Does surely change her price each time she does her ironing? 36 00:02:03,984 --> 00:02:04,614 Yes. 37 00:02:04,704 --> 00:02:06,714 So the rates are always the same. 38 00:02:07,324 --> 00:02:10,174 How long she takes is different each time. 39 00:02:10,264 --> 00:02:12,814 And to be honest, a lot of the time I don't even look at the number. 40 00:02:13,054 --> 00:02:14,704 I'm just grateful that someone's doing the work. 41 00:02:14,824 --> 00:02:15,034 Yeah. 42 00:02:15,034 --> 00:02:17,674 'Cause like I don't really care how much I'm paying unless, 43 00:02:17,674 --> 00:02:19,204 unless it starts to really hurt. 44 00:02:19,594 --> 00:02:19,984 It's that thing. 45 00:02:20,194 --> 00:02:24,634 When it starts, I notice it and I, I can't say what I mean what, or I notice 46 00:02:24,634 --> 00:02:28,144 it is like, but there's gonna be a point in my, I feel like actually do you know? 47 00:02:28,454 --> 00:02:29,834 Maybe I should do my own ironing. 48 00:02:29,934 --> 00:02:33,264 But yeah, no, no, her rates, uh, but in terms of the, the only reason 49 00:02:33,264 --> 00:02:35,664 the number changes is because the amount of time she spends on it. 50 00:02:35,664 --> 00:02:38,604 And, and I kind of correlate it to the size of the motherfucking 51 00:02:38,609 --> 00:02:39,789 bag that I'm giving it to her. 52 00:02:39,789 --> 00:02:40,029 Mm-Hmm. 53 00:02:40,164 --> 00:02:43,544 And so I expect if it's a big bag, it's gonna be a bit higher 54 00:02:43,544 --> 00:02:45,164 than if it's a smaller bag. 55 00:02:45,374 --> 00:02:50,789 'Cause maybe what she's anxious about is the fluctuating amount, 'cause I 56 00:02:50,789 --> 00:02:54,569 know the rate change stays the same, but there's a kind of fluctuating amount. 57 00:02:54,599 --> 00:02:58,949 So in fluctuating amount there is, there is change, there is uncertainty. 58 00:02:58,949 --> 00:03:01,889 So there's all those things, which is why actually in many ways, charging by the 59 00:03:01,889 --> 00:03:05,369 hour, this is not necessarily relevant to Shirley, but given we've started with 60 00:03:05,369 --> 00:03:10,139 Shirley, we'll continue with Shirley, the, uh, by charging by the hour and having 61 00:03:10,139 --> 00:03:14,489 an open-ended agreement with the people that you are, you are, you are working 62 00:03:14,489 --> 00:03:19,949 for or working with that does kind of bake uncertainty into the, into the engagement, 63 00:03:19,949 --> 00:03:21,329 into the, into the transaction. 64 00:03:21,629 --> 00:03:25,709 And you know, we may not think about that when it feels sort of small. 65 00:03:25,709 --> 00:03:29,039 Like it's just, you know, is it one hour or one and a half, an hour 66 00:03:29,044 --> 00:03:30,329 and a half or whatever it might be? 67 00:03:30,659 --> 00:03:34,535 But it might be that part of what is happening is that there is a feeling of 68 00:03:34,535 --> 00:03:39,395 uncertainty that she has, which is kind of something separate to, uh, whether 69 00:03:39,395 --> 00:03:43,625 she's feeling apologetic about it, whether she's nervous about it, but it might just 70 00:03:43,625 --> 00:03:47,495 mean that actually she is also feeling a degree of uncertainty around that, and 71 00:03:47,495 --> 00:03:52,025 she is responding and reacting to that feeling of uncertainty that is, uh, that 72 00:03:52,025 --> 00:03:55,715 is kind of present given that it is a, it is a fluctuating and changing thing. 73 00:03:56,018 --> 00:04:00,518 As, yeah, I like, I like that explanation in terms of, it's not just the apology, 74 00:04:00,518 --> 00:04:02,948 it's the, is this gonna be well received? 75 00:04:03,518 --> 00:04:04,088 It sounds like. 76 00:04:04,088 --> 00:04:07,526 It's like, oh my God, I'm, am I gonna get some kind of reaction from the 77 00:04:07,531 --> 00:04:10,976 person because now I presented the price that I didn't agree in the first place. 78 00:04:11,366 --> 00:04:14,426 And so now how is, that, was that amount of time? 79 00:04:14,431 --> 00:04:18,576 And I remember from agency days not having the balls in inverted 80 00:04:18,596 --> 00:04:23,316 commas to talk about, uh, a piece of work or, let's put it another way. 81 00:04:23,436 --> 00:04:26,646 We tried to try and do fixed cost stuff at the beginning. 82 00:04:26,676 --> 00:04:31,976 'cause again, um, we thought it would make people buy from us more easily. 83 00:04:32,358 --> 00:04:36,513 But then we also found a lot that I found anyway, as a developer, some problems, 84 00:04:36,513 --> 00:04:39,783 especially bespoke, they take a lot longer than you thought they were gonna be. 85 00:04:40,203 --> 00:04:42,663 And so the other thing was like, okay, yeah, we'll do it and I'll 86 00:04:42,663 --> 00:04:44,103 tell you the time at the end. 87 00:04:44,703 --> 00:04:47,493 And then getting to that point, like, it took me eight hours and 88 00:04:47,583 --> 00:04:49,383 Oh God, can I say eight hours? 89 00:04:49,593 --> 00:04:50,673 Do I need six hours? 90 00:04:50,703 --> 00:04:51,903 Was that and that energy? 91 00:04:51,903 --> 00:04:55,623 Then I brought to just even writing that email of the uncertainty 92 00:04:55,623 --> 00:04:58,803 of this is gonna be received well, A, that was really painful. 93 00:04:58,863 --> 00:05:00,363 And then it's like, you send and I go, Ugh. 94 00:05:01,293 --> 00:05:03,963 Sitting in that space of like, oh my God, are they gonna come back at 95 00:05:03,963 --> 00:05:07,233 me with, oh no, that's too much, or That's too expensive, or, oh my God, 96 00:05:07,293 --> 00:05:08,823 you know, that too took too long. 97 00:05:08,823 --> 00:05:09,003 You know? 98 00:05:09,003 --> 00:05:09,753 Questions. 99 00:05:10,203 --> 00:05:10,233 Mm. 100 00:05:10,803 --> 00:05:13,323 So there's something here, at the very least, there's something here 101 00:05:13,323 --> 00:05:19,833 about creating more certainty in this relationship around what is to be done, 102 00:05:19,838 --> 00:05:23,823 what is to be expected, what is a value, and how much people will pay for it. 103 00:05:23,823 --> 00:05:24,453 Mm-Hmm. 104 00:05:24,734 --> 00:05:29,024 You know, everybody to varying degrees is uncomfortable with uncertainty and whether 105 00:05:29,024 --> 00:05:33,679 you are the person buying the services, the uncertainty is uncomfortable is, 106 00:05:33,679 --> 00:05:34,909 you know, what's it gonna end up being? 107 00:05:34,909 --> 00:05:37,609 Is it gonna be more than I've got or whatever, you know, it might be. 108 00:05:37,849 --> 00:05:41,539 And equally the uncertainty also kind of plays out on the part of the 109 00:05:41,539 --> 00:05:43,669 person who is providing for sure. 110 00:05:43,909 --> 00:05:47,269 I think there is the other thing, which in a way potentially your kind 111 00:05:47,269 --> 00:05:51,409 of the, the story as you articulated initially was alluding to, which is 112 00:05:51,409 --> 00:05:56,119 also the point about whether or not we do come with a kind of unapologetic 113 00:05:56,124 --> 00:05:59,324 undertone to how we talk about money. 114 00:05:59,774 --> 00:06:04,304 Uh, and you know, I think you know that that for sure does also happen. 115 00:06:04,309 --> 00:06:07,154 And it may be that that is what's happening in this instance, like 116 00:06:07,154 --> 00:06:08,474 I said, it may be something else. 117 00:06:08,594 --> 00:06:11,384 But I think that there is also, there is also that tr that truth. 118 00:06:11,684 --> 00:06:15,944 Oftentimes we do bring these sort of undertones to our 119 00:06:15,949 --> 00:06:17,084 conversations around money. 120 00:06:17,084 --> 00:06:20,204 Sometimes we do come with an apologetic feeling, a feeling 121 00:06:20,204 --> 00:06:23,654 that, you know, it's too much, I shouldn't be doing this, maybe. 122 00:06:23,799 --> 00:06:27,759 Then that links to sort of stories about am I worth it and all of those 123 00:06:27,759 --> 00:06:31,539 sorts of things, which actually oftentimes do come up when we're talking 124 00:06:31,539 --> 00:06:33,189 about money with people for sure. 125 00:06:33,412 --> 00:06:38,422 Yeah, I think that's a really useful point to, to add there is that deeper aspect 126 00:06:38,902 --> 00:06:46,012 to, um, to this, um, engagement that we have with the client and, uh, the stories 127 00:06:46,012 --> 00:06:51,922 that we are telling ourselves about receiving money and whether it's okay. 128 00:06:52,577 --> 00:06:57,957 And how that, well, how that then affects the, the energy or 129 00:06:57,957 --> 00:07:00,527 the feelings, the perceptions of the client, of the customer. 130 00:07:00,837 --> 00:07:00,987 Mm-Hmm. 131 00:07:01,647 --> 00:07:04,227 Because we're then projecting. 132 00:07:04,737 --> 00:07:09,327 We're projecting our stories on other people, how useful is that and 133 00:07:09,327 --> 00:07:11,997 how, and then how truthful is that? 134 00:07:12,357 --> 00:07:12,657 Mm-Hmm. 135 00:07:12,687 --> 00:07:17,067 I think is, is the, the question, so we, we are like, there's two aspects. 136 00:07:17,247 --> 00:07:20,847 It feels that, for two levels we're talking about this in terms of the, 137 00:07:21,477 --> 00:07:26,817 there's a kind of a strategic, uh, tactical execution level where, do 138 00:07:26,817 --> 00:07:32,262 you know what, because I haven't agreed upfront the, the terms, 139 00:07:32,262 --> 00:07:33,882 the payment, you know, the amount. 140 00:07:34,302 --> 00:07:37,122 When I then go to the customer and tell them how much it costs 141 00:07:37,122 --> 00:07:40,302 after doing the work, that creates uncertainty for everyone. 142 00:07:40,722 --> 00:07:45,792 And so that will add to the fear that something might go wrong 143 00:07:45,822 --> 00:07:47,202 in terms of that conversation. 144 00:07:47,772 --> 00:07:53,142 And then there's the, the stories we're telling ourselves are just about 145 00:07:53,142 --> 00:07:58,392 receiving money, and how when we tell stories that disempower ourselves. 146 00:07:58,782 --> 00:08:01,122 How that also potentially disempowers the customer. 147 00:08:01,212 --> 00:08:01,602 Mm-Hmm. 148 00:08:02,232 --> 00:08:06,102 So, given those two scenarios, maybe we can talk to, all right, how can 149 00:08:06,102 --> 00:08:07,362 we think about mitigating them? 150 00:08:07,362 --> 00:08:09,792 What were the things that people can maybe take away? 151 00:08:10,272 --> 00:08:13,692 When thinking about those two situations that can help them 152 00:08:13,692 --> 00:08:17,322 minimize those things coming about or affecting themselves adversely. 153 00:08:17,562 --> 00:08:17,982 Yeah. 154 00:08:18,102 --> 00:08:21,972 I mean, I guess one thing on the second part you were talking about there, 155 00:08:21,972 --> 00:08:25,392 about whether the stories that we're telling ourselves about accepting 156 00:08:25,392 --> 00:08:29,837 money, in a way, of course, that this is all sort of massively helpful in 157 00:08:29,837 --> 00:08:33,197 terms of a, a takeaway thing, but of course, all that's happening there, it's 158 00:08:33,197 --> 00:08:35,417 not really about the money, that bit. 159 00:08:35,717 --> 00:08:39,947 We're, we are then projecting a story about ourselves that we 160 00:08:39,947 --> 00:08:41,387 tell ourselves onto the money. 161 00:08:41,807 --> 00:08:45,317 So you know that, you know, am I allowed to ask for this amount of 162 00:08:45,317 --> 00:08:49,817 money, you know, pretty quickly is sort of becomes linked to a story about 163 00:08:49,937 --> 00:08:52,937 whether I'm worth it and all of those sorts of things, which are obviously 164 00:08:52,937 --> 00:08:54,497 kind of much, much deeper lying things. 165 00:08:54,497 --> 00:08:58,577 So I kind of say that not because I have some sort of very helpful 166 00:08:58,577 --> 00:09:02,087 or easy thing that people can take away to deal with that, but I think 167 00:09:02,092 --> 00:09:06,167 it is worthwhile understanding that oftentimes, you know, money is like, 168 00:09:06,197 --> 00:09:09,617 you know, and I know, uh, who's, he wrote the book, the 30 Lies About Money? 169 00:09:09,881 --> 00:09:11,501 Oh, uh, Peter Koenig. 170 00:09:11,591 --> 00:09:11,831 Yeah. 171 00:09:11,831 --> 00:09:12,071 Right. 172 00:09:12,071 --> 00:09:12,281 Okay. 173 00:09:12,281 --> 00:09:15,911 So I think in, in that there's kind of lots of really, really kind of useful 174 00:09:15,911 --> 00:09:19,481 pointers about the fact that really what we're doing is we are projecting 175 00:09:19,511 --> 00:09:21,101 our own stories onto it, you know. 176 00:09:21,341 --> 00:09:26,411 Ideas that, uh, money is security or money is freedom, or money is, 177 00:09:26,561 --> 00:09:30,341 whatever you might kind of put into there is basically just a sequence of 178 00:09:30,341 --> 00:09:33,431 us projecting these ideas onto money. 179 00:09:33,611 --> 00:09:36,071 And in the same way, you know, the, to your thing there about. 180 00:09:36,276 --> 00:09:39,606 Whether we're allowed to get this money, that is again, just us projecting a 181 00:09:39,606 --> 00:09:42,966 story about whether we are allowed to do something, whether we're entitled 182 00:09:42,966 --> 00:09:45,576 to do something, whether it is, you know, whether, you know, whether 183 00:09:45,576 --> 00:09:46,656 we're allowed to kind of do that. 184 00:09:46,656 --> 00:09:50,496 So I think us projecting onto money is something that we do, 185 00:09:50,526 --> 00:09:53,316 'cause obviously money is a hugely emotionally charged thing. 186 00:09:53,376 --> 00:09:55,926 So again, I kind of say that not because there is a. 187 00:09:56,186 --> 00:09:59,426 Sort of simple takeaway for people, but oftentimes that is what's happening. 188 00:09:59,456 --> 00:10:01,196 We're feeling nervous about it. 189 00:10:01,196 --> 00:10:03,776 We're feeling apologetic about it, we're feeling anxious about it. 190 00:10:03,986 --> 00:10:07,466 We're feeling uncertain about it, it's because we're feeling nervous 191 00:10:07,466 --> 00:10:09,986 or we're feeling anxious, or we're feeling whatever it might be. 192 00:10:09,991 --> 00:10:12,267 We're just projecting those things onto the money. 193 00:10:12,738 --> 00:10:16,428 Well, I think there is something helpful here, and this is, and we talk about, 194 00:10:16,968 --> 00:10:20,568 um, in our work at the Happy Startup School, this idea of the transformational 195 00:10:20,568 --> 00:10:22,518 idea that takes us out of chaos. 196 00:10:22,608 --> 00:10:26,478 The shift in perspective and thinking that helps us look at a situation a 197 00:10:26,478 --> 00:10:31,888 different way so that we can grow more powerfully in that aspect of our lives. 198 00:10:31,948 --> 00:10:33,658 And in this case, let's talk about pricing. 199 00:10:33,658 --> 00:10:37,258 To begin to a place where we more feel more powerful and confident. 200 00:10:37,873 --> 00:10:39,103 About the way we price. 201 00:10:39,523 --> 00:10:43,033 And one of the one idea that's really important that I think, you 202 00:10:43,033 --> 00:10:46,873 know, which you were explaining is this idea that money, this 203 00:10:46,873 --> 00:10:48,793 idea about money is not objective. 204 00:10:49,093 --> 00:10:51,853 You know, the value of money or the process, the, the, the belief 205 00:10:51,853 --> 00:10:52,693 around money is not objective. 206 00:10:52,693 --> 00:10:53,143 Yes. 207 00:10:53,533 --> 00:10:58,123 From a system point of view of economics and the way people talk about it in a 208 00:10:58,363 --> 00:11:03,433 economic system, it's a, a method of exchange of value, you know, if you're 209 00:11:03,433 --> 00:11:07,633 gonna take a technical term, but like in the book, so this is Peter Koenig's 210 00:11:07,638 --> 00:11:12,013 book 30 Lies About Money, i, I've read it, I learned about it really mainly 211 00:11:12,013 --> 00:11:15,973 through Charles Davies and um, Tom Nixon, who are members of our community. 212 00:11:16,723 --> 00:11:21,763 My understanding around that is that whenever anyone talks about money, they 213 00:11:21,763 --> 00:11:23,293 talk about it through their own lens. 214 00:11:23,563 --> 00:11:29,008 So for me, the idea that helped me is that by understanding my story 215 00:11:29,008 --> 00:11:32,728 about money, I then realize other people have a story about money. 216 00:11:33,118 --> 00:11:35,758 And so when we are talking about money, don't assume that you're 217 00:11:35,758 --> 00:11:36,778 talking about the same thing. 218 00:11:37,438 --> 00:11:40,228 When you are talking about a certain amount of money, don't assume that 219 00:11:40,228 --> 00:11:42,518 we all value it in the same way. 220 00:11:43,068 --> 00:11:49,198 And so how much I'm willing to spend isn't necessarily, or the feeling I 221 00:11:49,198 --> 00:11:52,258 have about a certain amount of money when I spend it, isn't gonna be the 222 00:11:52,258 --> 00:11:53,758 same that someone else feels about it. 223 00:11:54,028 --> 00:11:54,118 Mm-Hmm. 224 00:11:54,298 --> 00:11:58,948 And similarly, when I receive a certain amount of money, just because I feel a 225 00:11:58,948 --> 00:12:02,518 bit weird about, it, doesn't necessarily, everyone else has the same feeling. 226 00:12:03,493 --> 00:12:07,543 So, uh, the takeaway for me is don't assume that what you are feeling 227 00:12:07,543 --> 00:12:08,833 is what the other person's feeling. 228 00:12:08,863 --> 00:12:12,193 Just because you are not willing to pay two and a half grand for something doesn't 229 00:12:12,198 --> 00:12:15,043 mean that they're not perfectly happy to pay you two and a half grand for something 230 00:12:15,306 --> 00:12:20,570 Or even the extent of that, that actually it's important to them that they are, that 231 00:12:20,590 --> 00:12:21,940 they are spending that amount of money. 232 00:12:21,940 --> 00:12:25,330 So the kind of the story that they're telling, the judgment that they have 233 00:12:25,330 --> 00:12:30,700 around it, the, the kind of view of the amounts are all, is the subjective thing. 234 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,150 'Cause you know, in that instance, whatever the thing, it may be important 235 00:12:34,150 --> 00:12:37,490 for somebody for their own identity and the own, the story that they tell 236 00:12:37,490 --> 00:12:42,170 themselves to be seen, to be investing appropriately as they would say in 237 00:12:42,170 --> 00:12:43,880 whatever the, the service may be. 238 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,780 But yes, I think that is, uh, that's a, a, a useful point, uh, sort of reminding 239 00:12:47,780 --> 00:12:49,820 of the subject, the subjectivity of it. 240 00:12:49,907 --> 00:12:50,267 Yeah. 241 00:12:50,267 --> 00:12:54,317 And, and an example that springs to mind that's quite close to home is, is my dad. 242 00:12:54,887 --> 00:12:57,887 And like I, I was buying him a, a mobile phone, an iPhone. 243 00:12:58,537 --> 00:12:59,557 I know what he needs. 244 00:12:59,557 --> 00:13:03,277 He doesn't really need the, the best one, he just needs one that works most of 245 00:13:03,277 --> 00:13:04,927 the work perfectly well for most people. 246 00:13:05,197 --> 00:13:07,537 And so I said, you know, get this version and it costs, I can't 247 00:13:07,542 --> 00:13:09,667 remember his classic 999 quid. 248 00:13:10,627 --> 00:13:13,027 And he's like, no, but that isn't the best one. 249 00:13:13,657 --> 00:13:16,177 So there's this thing about like, no, no, I can't buy that one 250 00:13:16,182 --> 00:13:20,407 because that's not the top thing and it needs to be the top thing. 251 00:13:20,407 --> 00:13:23,407 So there's a story about if it costs this much, if it's the best thing, 252 00:13:23,407 --> 00:13:27,787 then it's much more, you know, there's something, there's a, a value not 253 00:13:27,792 --> 00:13:31,807 tied to the actual functionality there that he's projecting on this purchase. 254 00:13:32,047 --> 00:13:32,167 Mm-Hmm. 255 00:13:32,467 --> 00:13:36,037 And so that for me is like, okay, there, I'm just thinking about that now. 256 00:13:36,037 --> 00:13:39,067 It's like there's similarly with anyone who's buying from us, like you said, 257 00:13:39,067 --> 00:13:42,067 there's something around, I want to pay more money 'cause it makes me feel 258 00:13:42,577 --> 00:13:44,467 better about myself for whatever reason. 259 00:13:45,037 --> 00:13:46,897 So that's one thing. 260 00:13:46,957 --> 00:13:47,107 Mm-Hmm. 261 00:13:47,707 --> 00:13:50,857 Then there's this okay, but this uncertainty piece. 262 00:13:50,857 --> 00:13:50,947 Mm-Hmm. 263 00:13:51,067 --> 00:13:54,487 When we are going into an engagement or when we are gonna work with someone. 264 00:13:54,907 --> 00:13:55,927 Mitigating that. 265 00:13:56,107 --> 00:13:56,197 Mm-Hmm. 266 00:13:56,437 --> 00:14:00,217 And what, do you have any thoughts for people who are starting a 267 00:14:00,217 --> 00:14:06,037 relationship with new person, uh, a new customer and wanting to feel 268 00:14:06,037 --> 00:14:07,837 more calm in themselves about. 269 00:14:08,437 --> 00:14:11,017 I wondered where we were going there with the starting relationship with 270 00:14:11,017 --> 00:14:15,277 the new person, and it felt like we were, we were veering off into 271 00:14:15,367 --> 00:14:17,797 sort of completely new territory. 272 00:14:18,487 --> 00:14:21,457 That's, and maybe maybe beyond the, the realm of the podcast. 273 00:14:21,457 --> 00:14:21,847 I don't know. 274 00:14:21,847 --> 00:14:27,219 There's a very different podcast, a bit of a mash up there, Very niche, 275 00:14:27,219 --> 00:14:29,349 kind of like in, uh, transaction there. 276 00:14:30,579 --> 00:14:35,079 But yes, working with a new customer or client or actually any customer 277 00:14:35,079 --> 00:14:38,919 or client to be honest, but where the, yeah, where, where, like you 278 00:14:38,919 --> 00:14:41,379 said, price could change each time. 279 00:14:41,379 --> 00:14:41,469 Mm-Hmm. 280 00:14:41,469 --> 00:14:44,859 Or the, isn't the fixed price that people just come but pay 281 00:14:44,864 --> 00:14:45,849 for the thing and they're off. 282 00:14:45,969 --> 00:14:46,089 Mm-Hmm. 283 00:14:46,359 --> 00:14:51,789 Um, any suggestions or thoughts scenarios, and then based on those scenarios, kind of 284 00:14:51,789 --> 00:14:55,749 situations that, or things that you people could do to, to mitigate that uncertainty? 285 00:14:55,963 --> 00:14:56,563 Yeah. 286 00:14:56,653 --> 00:15:00,163 Uh, well, the, like, I was, I was curious actually about the example that you shared 287 00:15:00,163 --> 00:15:05,713 of your agency knows where there, there was an idea about how long something would 288 00:15:05,713 --> 00:15:08,233 take, but then it just takes much longer. 289 00:15:08,563 --> 00:15:14,833 So that says to me, the developer's not spent the time upfront thinking about 290 00:15:15,043 --> 00:15:16,423 the range of things that might go wrong. 291 00:15:16,483 --> 00:15:19,933 But is that, is that just sort of, uh, ignorance on my part? 292 00:15:20,169 --> 00:15:24,023 So there, there's, specifically, uh, in the situation I'm thinking 293 00:15:24,023 --> 00:15:28,163 about, we are making something very bespoke and very new. 294 00:15:28,913 --> 00:15:35,073 And so, on one hand, had I known what I know now, the value of it was 295 00:15:35,078 --> 00:15:39,573 nothing to do with how long it took, it's how it related to the outcome 296 00:15:39,573 --> 00:15:42,633 of the project and what it meant for the business of the customer. 297 00:15:43,323 --> 00:15:49,578 However, as an agency, our business model is dependent on making enough 298 00:15:49,578 --> 00:15:50,988 money to pay, pay, make payroll. 299 00:15:51,108 --> 00:15:51,573 Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. 300 00:15:51,573 --> 00:15:55,458 And so the more time I spend on something, the more expensive I 301 00:15:55,458 --> 00:15:58,473 am, uh, and that affects profits. 302 00:15:58,763 --> 00:16:03,143 And so this is real tricky balance where on one hand the, it's like 303 00:16:03,323 --> 00:16:06,923 there's a, I remember one client saying, well, you know, we both have 304 00:16:06,923 --> 00:16:08,183 to have skin in the game in this. 305 00:16:08,431 --> 00:16:12,061 You know why as a customer I'm taking all the risk when I dunno the price. 306 00:16:12,541 --> 00:16:17,191 And it is that aspect of like, I, well I don't know exactly how much, how long it's 307 00:16:17,191 --> 00:16:21,081 gonna take 'cause it's a completely new thing not only that I'm doing, but that, 308 00:16:21,081 --> 00:16:22,621 it doesn't exist, it's clearly bespoke. 309 00:16:22,651 --> 00:16:22,741 Mm-Hmm. 310 00:16:23,131 --> 00:16:28,261 So there was a, in a sense, there was a, an agreement that needed to be made 311 00:16:28,501 --> 00:16:29,911 that there was a level of risk here. 312 00:16:30,011 --> 00:16:32,321 But then, like you said, that creates uncertainty, which 313 00:16:32,321 --> 00:16:33,401 isn't great for a customer. 314 00:16:33,796 --> 00:16:39,008 And so in that situation, I either suck up the cost which then doesn't, isn't great 315 00:16:39,008 --> 00:16:41,708 for the business, um, or the customer. 316 00:16:42,458 --> 00:16:46,838 Buys into this idea that we are in a, um, an agile environment. 317 00:16:46,838 --> 00:16:46,928 Mm-Hmm. 318 00:16:47,168 --> 00:16:50,468 And so we take a process of like, how do we minimize. 319 00:16:51,053 --> 00:16:52,313 The risk to the customer. 320 00:16:52,313 --> 00:16:55,103 Well, basically how do we remove the fear that the customer's gonna get a 321 00:16:55,103 --> 00:16:58,343 massive bill that they didn't realize and suddenly they have no more money left. 322 00:16:58,523 --> 00:16:59,603 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 323 00:16:59,663 --> 00:17:04,013 Because that, that, you know, is a real fear for somebody who's buying something 324 00:17:04,018 --> 00:17:07,673 that feels like it could be open-ended, I mean, you know, within reason, of course. 325 00:17:07,733 --> 00:17:10,013 But, so then it kind of makes me think about, you know, 326 00:17:10,043 --> 00:17:11,923 what is being sold and how? 327 00:17:12,003 --> 00:17:14,823 Because I think this is, you know, and, and in that, that sort of sense, 328 00:17:15,003 --> 00:17:17,763 'cause I think the, the, the goal needs to be for everybody's sake. 329 00:17:17,763 --> 00:17:20,703 No, we're talking, we know this all started with Shirley and whether 330 00:17:20,703 --> 00:17:23,343 Shirley's anxious about the uncertainty and whether you are anxious about the 331 00:17:23,348 --> 00:17:25,233 uncertainty and all of those things. 332 00:17:25,233 --> 00:17:30,573 So it is actually better for everybody that we try and find some sort of, 333 00:17:30,603 --> 00:17:34,728 um, some kind of, some certainty that we try and weave some certainty, 334 00:17:34,728 --> 00:17:38,988 at least some or or managed risk into, into the, into engagement. 335 00:17:38,988 --> 00:17:43,338 And so taking your example there of developing a completely bespoke new 336 00:17:43,338 --> 00:17:47,688 thing again, so if the process is broken down a little bit, so you might 337 00:17:47,688 --> 00:17:48,678 be saying to the client, look, I. 338 00:17:49,013 --> 00:17:50,033 We have no idea. 339 00:17:50,093 --> 00:17:54,593 I mean, you know, within reason w you know, what's gonna come up, how it's 340 00:17:54,593 --> 00:17:56,213 gonna, how we will sort of do about this. 341 00:17:56,393 --> 00:18:00,353 We have some idea based on other things, which might be sort of similar. 342 00:18:00,683 --> 00:18:04,493 But you know, it can be a bit open-ended because, you know, unknown 343 00:18:04,493 --> 00:18:07,553 things can happen during the process and those unknown things might 344 00:18:07,558 --> 00:18:09,023 require additional work, et cetera. 345 00:18:09,023 --> 00:18:13,508 So in a way, you know, this also then starts to link a little bit to options 346 00:18:13,508 --> 00:18:14,918 that we've also speak about otherwise. 347 00:18:15,068 --> 00:18:18,698 So then a choice for a client, because again, giving them choices 348 00:18:18,698 --> 00:18:21,518 might be helpful, there are different ways of playing the game, right? 349 00:18:21,728 --> 00:18:22,268 You know, Mr. 350 00:18:22,268 --> 00:18:22,598 and Mrs. 351 00:18:22,603 --> 00:18:25,598 Client, we could head down this way, which is completely open-ended, 352 00:18:25,598 --> 00:18:26,828 you're gonna pay for the time. 353 00:18:27,008 --> 00:18:28,268 I don't know what it's gonna take. 354 00:18:28,298 --> 00:18:32,318 You know, my best endeavors, it'll be less than that, but it could be more. 355 00:18:32,318 --> 00:18:32,768 I don't know. 356 00:18:32,768 --> 00:18:35,538 We'll, this, we go into a completely open-ended thing. 357 00:18:35,778 --> 00:18:39,168 Or I guess also from your point of view, uh, from the, the creator, the 358 00:18:39,168 --> 00:18:43,008 developer's point of view, you might say, as an alternative or, look, we 359 00:18:43,008 --> 00:18:45,713 agree to a smaller initial investment. 360 00:18:45,743 --> 00:18:48,473 And that's gonna be fixed so that we're all kind of clear. 361 00:18:48,653 --> 00:18:52,073 And in that initial investment, you know, we might call that a scoping 362 00:18:52,073 --> 00:18:54,803 thing, this then links to kind of what you are selling, essentially. 363 00:18:54,803 --> 00:18:56,903 So a process that you might sell. 364 00:18:57,353 --> 00:19:00,473 We say, look, you know, you make an initial investment, it will be fixed 365 00:19:00,623 --> 00:19:05,093 in that we will do the exploratory work that's necessary to be sure 366 00:19:05,263 --> 00:19:07,183 about what follows thereafterwards. 367 00:19:07,363 --> 00:19:09,823 So you may get an initial investment, which is gonna be fixed. 368 00:19:09,973 --> 00:19:14,203 Out of that we can have clarity or much more clarity around what's gonna 369 00:19:14,208 --> 00:19:15,793 be required and how we would progress. 370 00:19:16,003 --> 00:19:19,153 And there will be a then a cost for doing that work thereafter. 371 00:19:19,363 --> 00:19:22,873 So you kind of finding ways of bringing a bit more clarity, a bit 372 00:19:22,878 --> 00:19:24,703 more certainty into the process. 373 00:19:24,703 --> 00:19:27,528 Maybe at the same time as giving them different options and 374 00:19:27,528 --> 00:19:29,233 different ways that they can engage. 375 00:19:29,413 --> 00:19:31,513 But I think the goal, the owners should be on us. 376 00:19:31,668 --> 00:19:36,078 The provider, the seller of the serviceness, to make these things as, as 377 00:19:36,078 --> 00:19:38,538 clear and as sort of safe as possible. 378 00:19:38,538 --> 00:19:41,628 Because this is what it links to is whether in the mind, the heart, 379 00:19:41,628 --> 00:19:45,498 mind of the person who's buying it, does it feel safe to buy this thing? 380 00:19:45,708 --> 00:19:47,328 And uncertainty doesn't feel safe. 381 00:19:47,328 --> 00:19:52,578 So the onus is on us to try and find ways or sort of lending the 382 00:19:52,788 --> 00:19:56,598 lending the transaction, lending the sale a bit more, a bit more safety. 383 00:19:57,188 --> 00:20:01,018 And so what, what springs to mind in terms of like this situation? 384 00:20:01,558 --> 00:20:03,628 You know, the way I'm gonna break it down the situation, particularly in 385 00:20:03,628 --> 00:20:07,858 the agency days when I was doing a lot of the development, is what the client 386 00:20:07,858 --> 00:20:10,108 wants and there's what I wanna do. 387 00:20:10,918 --> 00:20:14,638 I loved tackling naughty technical problems and finding 388 00:20:14,638 --> 00:20:16,018 the most elegant solution. 389 00:20:16,558 --> 00:20:18,838 And it is something as a joy of just like doing that. 390 00:20:19,378 --> 00:20:21,778 The client just wanted to make sure that the button worked. 391 00:20:21,958 --> 00:20:22,318 Mm-Hmm. 392 00:20:22,768 --> 00:20:27,313 And so the thing that I've learned is actually, either need to let go 393 00:20:27,583 --> 00:20:32,549 of doing the most elegant thing and just make it work, or I find clients 394 00:20:32,549 --> 00:20:34,829 who value the most elegant solution. 395 00:20:34,829 --> 00:20:35,069 Yeah. 396 00:20:35,237 --> 00:20:39,977 Because that will me give me freedom to really dive deep and spend a day doing 397 00:20:39,977 --> 00:20:43,937 just this one thing, because there's a perceived value in that from the client. 398 00:20:44,147 --> 00:20:44,357 Yeah. 399 00:20:45,017 --> 00:20:49,157 And I could talk 'til the cows come home about it being responsive and 400 00:20:49,157 --> 00:20:52,037 working on a different, on different devices and being, you know, all of 401 00:20:52,037 --> 00:20:55,822 these things that maybe the client even hasn't got any customers yet. 402 00:20:55,852 --> 00:20:59,602 They just wanna make sure that this business actually has any legs, so 403 00:20:59,602 --> 00:21:02,992 whether the button works on the mobile phone or tablet and a PC at, in the 404 00:21:02,992 --> 00:21:04,807 same way, they don't really care. 405 00:21:04,987 --> 00:21:05,227 Yeah. 406 00:21:05,227 --> 00:21:08,827 And that, the thing that comes up for me there is, is understanding what 407 00:21:08,832 --> 00:21:12,127 the client is actually buying, which is another thing obviously we sort 408 00:21:12,127 --> 00:21:14,874 of talk about a lot on the course and through all of these sort of things. 409 00:21:15,247 --> 00:21:16,867 What is it the client is actually buying? 410 00:21:16,867 --> 00:21:20,797 And so I think about this in, you know, one of my last businesses, Free State, 411 00:21:20,802 --> 00:21:24,847 where we were essentially selling design services to, but what the client was 412 00:21:24,847 --> 00:21:29,077 buying, 'cause our client, you know, we were a relatively small, sort of 413 00:21:29,167 --> 00:21:32,797 entrepreneurial design creative agency. 414 00:21:33,097 --> 00:21:36,487 Our clients were senior people in large organizations. 415 00:21:36,727 --> 00:21:40,207 And so actually part of what they were buying when they were buying 416 00:21:40,207 --> 00:21:44,707 FreeState was they were satisfying their own creative entrepreneurial itch. 417 00:21:44,857 --> 00:21:47,887 And yes, there's, there's some element of the, the what of what 418 00:21:47,887 --> 00:21:51,457 they're buying, but actually there's all of those emotive aspects too. 419 00:21:51,667 --> 00:21:54,487 And that, and so I, I share that because it's a similar kind of thing 420 00:21:54,487 --> 00:21:55,532 to what you were talking about there. 421 00:21:55,887 --> 00:21:57,387 What is the client actually buying? 422 00:21:57,387 --> 00:22:02,187 In some instances it will be important to the client, to a client, that 423 00:22:02,187 --> 00:22:05,607 they, because of how they feel about themselves and the story that they 424 00:22:05,612 --> 00:22:10,287 tell themselves, to always be investing in that, you know, the, the kind of, 425 00:22:10,287 --> 00:22:14,547 the, the well thought through crafted solution that's important to them. 426 00:22:14,882 --> 00:22:18,182 There will be other clients, which is, you know, about a, you know, for 427 00:22:18,182 --> 00:22:21,542 want of a better phrase, a kind of quicker and dirtier thing, that that's 428 00:22:21,542 --> 00:22:24,662 what's important to them because that's the story that they tell themselves. 429 00:22:24,812 --> 00:22:28,922 And so, like you say, actually the, the outcome, the end point might be the same. 430 00:22:29,042 --> 00:22:32,072 It's a button on a screen or whatever it might be, but actually 431 00:22:32,072 --> 00:22:34,502 the thing that they're buying, the story that they're telling. 432 00:22:34,732 --> 00:22:35,932 Is the important thing. 433 00:22:36,142 --> 00:22:39,442 And we do really need to understand what that is because that points 434 00:22:39,442 --> 00:22:42,922 to the value, that points to how much somebody is willing to invest. 435 00:22:43,072 --> 00:22:43,737 It points it. 436 00:22:44,062 --> 00:22:46,282 It provides your signals to price. 437 00:22:46,495 --> 00:22:50,395 And I like the way you brought in the word story again, within it, you know, 438 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,065 there's the stories we tell ourselves and the stories our clients tell 439 00:22:53,070 --> 00:22:55,105 themselves the story about the value. 440 00:22:55,765 --> 00:22:58,045 So bringing it back to Shirley, lovely, Shirley. 441 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:03,040 I, as well as buying nice, ironed clothes that feel nice when I 442 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,600 put them on, I'm buying time. 443 00:23:06,260 --> 00:23:09,890 And in a sense, I could say, as long as it doesn't cost more 444 00:23:09,890 --> 00:23:12,590 than 50 quid an hour, I'm okay. 445 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,820 Because in my head, that is less than the value of my time per hour. 446 00:23:17,450 --> 00:23:21,352 And so she could, like, if she knew that, then anytime she'd sent me a bill that was 447 00:23:21,352 --> 00:23:24,892 less than 50 quid an hour, she wouldn't even have to say, I hope that's okay, 448 00:23:24,897 --> 00:23:26,468 because she knew exactly that's okay. 449 00:23:26,473 --> 00:23:26,783 Mm-Hmm. 450 00:23:26,863 --> 00:23:30,368 Because she knew that that's how much I am, that's the number 451 00:23:30,368 --> 00:23:34,555 in my head that is the kind of like acceptable or of of value. 452 00:23:35,035 --> 00:23:36,595 And so, yeah. 453 00:23:36,595 --> 00:23:39,625 I, I'm just offering that as a way, like when we are working with clients is that 454 00:23:39,655 --> 00:23:44,485 if we're able to start understanding what those numbers are, then we don't have 455 00:23:44,485 --> 00:23:48,085 to be so apologetic because it's, it's, they're comfortable with those numbers. 456 00:23:48,115 --> 00:23:48,535 Mm-Hmm. 457 00:23:49,045 --> 00:23:53,075 And the other thing like, um, for Shirley, I think going links back to 458 00:23:53,075 --> 00:23:58,145 the clarity, the uncertainty thing, you know, if Shirley were to say to you that 459 00:23:58,145 --> 00:24:00,455 actually the maximum this would ever be. 460 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,890 Is 50 pounds or whatever the number is, um, and so it will always be, 461 00:24:05,950 --> 00:24:08,890 unless you know, it will essentially, it will always be less than that 462 00:24:08,895 --> 00:24:12,970 unless something exceptional happens, and so there it's all, you know, 463 00:24:12,975 --> 00:24:15,730 it's always within expectation, it's always within expectation. 464 00:24:15,910 --> 00:24:17,950 Until the time when Shirley arrives. 465 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,600 And there's not only all of your shirts, but you've gathered all of the shirts 466 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,750 of the entire street, and Shirley's faced with this part, and she thinks, 467 00:24:25,750 --> 00:24:29,740 there's no fucking way I'm gonna be able to get this done for less 50, 468 00:24:29,745 --> 00:24:33,460 but then she can bring that up in the beginning before you get into it to say, 469 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,470 actually the circumstances have changed. 470 00:24:35,620 --> 00:24:38,950 This situation is different to all the situations that preceded it. 471 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,730 Therefore, we should have a conversation about this before I begin. 472 00:24:43,270 --> 00:24:45,670 Yeah, no, it's great to mention there's that fear of like, 473 00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:47,795 well, so one hand, with that. 474 00:24:47,795 --> 00:24:50,825 For instance, it's always 50, uh, 50 quid every fortnight. 475 00:24:51,245 --> 00:24:52,655 I'm buying certainty as well. 476 00:24:52,660 --> 00:24:52,820 Mm-Hmm. 477 00:24:53,045 --> 00:24:55,205 And I'm buying the ability to just budget and say, all right, 478 00:24:55,235 --> 00:24:56,495 forget that 50 quid a minute. 479 00:24:56,525 --> 00:24:57,275 Just take it out. 480 00:24:57,275 --> 00:24:57,845 Direct debit. 481 00:24:57,845 --> 00:24:58,805 I don't even have to think about it. 482 00:24:58,810 --> 00:25:01,225 And I'll just always know I'll have well ironed, closed. 483 00:25:02,005 --> 00:25:04,675 And then there's this, uh, from a supplier's point of view, like, oh my 484 00:25:04,675 --> 00:25:06,085 God, they might take advantage of me. 485 00:25:06,355 --> 00:25:06,805 Yeah. 486 00:25:06,865 --> 00:25:09,685 Well then that's where you need to be able to set parameters 487 00:25:09,685 --> 00:25:11,365 or discuss the parameters. 488 00:25:11,425 --> 00:25:11,515 Mm-Hmm. 489 00:25:11,755 --> 00:25:13,225 Be very clear about. 490 00:25:13,230 --> 00:25:16,759 All right, this is what you know, and it's really interesting to discuss what 491 00:25:16,759 --> 00:25:20,089 it means to be within reason and how that's a whole different discussion 492 00:25:20,089 --> 00:25:23,119 there really about how to go down to nitty gritty, 'cause you start doing 493 00:25:23,124 --> 00:25:24,679 itemized pricing, whatever you wanna do. 494 00:25:24,739 --> 00:25:28,489 But anyway, there is, well the thing is, there's a trust that 495 00:25:28,879 --> 00:25:30,589 neither party's gonna take the piss. 496 00:25:30,594 --> 00:25:30,674 Mm-Hmm. 497 00:25:31,129 --> 00:25:34,249 But also, uh, I, what are they buying? 498 00:25:34,789 --> 00:25:35,419 Are they buying. 499 00:25:35,884 --> 00:25:37,684 In my case, I'm buying time and certainty. 500 00:25:37,984 --> 00:25:40,744 Not only certainty in how much I'm gonna pay, but certainty in 501 00:25:40,744 --> 00:25:43,114 terms of like, it'll get done and I don't have to worry about it. 502 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:43,309 Mm-Hmm. 503 00:25:43,774 --> 00:25:45,244 You also buy some stress removed. 504 00:25:45,244 --> 00:25:47,974 'Cause I think there's a thing like in your mind, somewhere in your 505 00:25:47,974 --> 00:25:51,604 mind, you know, there's an idea that the ironing is a thing to be done. 506 00:25:52,144 --> 00:25:52,294 Yeah. 507 00:25:52,324 --> 00:25:54,724 And so yes, there's a thing, I get iron clothes, but actually 508 00:25:54,784 --> 00:25:56,314 it, there's a story somewhere. 509 00:25:56,494 --> 00:26:00,094 Ironing is a thing over there, which is to be done, and Shirley is 510 00:26:00,394 --> 00:26:01,984 taking that to be done thing away. 511 00:26:02,014 --> 00:26:05,944 So actually that is, you know, there, there is huge value in that. 512 00:26:05,944 --> 00:26:07,264 There's huge kind of gain in that. 513 00:26:07,624 --> 00:26:10,684 And then there's a story's like my mom telling me, you clothes should be ironed. 514 00:26:10,684 --> 00:26:11,434 Why aren't they ironed? 515 00:26:11,434 --> 00:26:11,494 Yeah. 516 00:26:11,734 --> 00:26:12,394 It's like, oh no. 517 00:26:12,394 --> 00:26:14,057 So I need to make sure my clothes are ironed. 518 00:26:14,057 --> 00:26:15,797 But you know, that's an illustration of this. 519 00:26:15,797 --> 00:26:18,257 Something that isn't even to do with the ironing. 520 00:26:18,647 --> 00:26:20,147 It isn't to do with how much work done. 521 00:26:20,177 --> 00:26:23,867 It's about the story I'm telling myself about buying this service. 522 00:26:24,542 --> 00:26:28,232 Or else if I don't buy this service or I don't have that outcome, 523 00:26:28,712 --> 00:26:32,582 that it says something, oh, I feel there's a cost of me not buying it. 524 00:26:32,762 --> 00:26:32,852 Mm. 525 00:26:32,852 --> 00:26:33,452 If that makes sense. 526 00:26:33,602 --> 00:26:38,042 And it's an emotional cost, not just a tangible physical service-based cost. 527 00:26:38,042 --> 00:26:38,492 Mm-hmm. 528 00:26:38,492 --> 00:26:41,642 Okay, well hopefully, um, Shirley's got more customers. 529 00:26:41,762 --> 00:26:42,422 Power to Shirley. 530 00:26:43,112 --> 00:26:43,982 Power to Shirley. 531 00:26:44,282 --> 00:26:47,702 Hopefully, uh, those of you who are listening still,. 532 00:26:47,702 --> 00:26:47,972 Still. 533 00:26:50,632 --> 00:26:57,407 Have got some food for thought about how to minimize any kind of 534 00:26:57,407 --> 00:27:03,257 uncertainty or apology when you are asking for money or sharing a price. 535 00:27:03,647 --> 00:27:08,657 And also an awareness, an increased awareness or maybe in a, a further 536 00:27:08,747 --> 00:27:14,147 investigation into the stories that you are telling yourself when you are 537 00:27:14,267 --> 00:27:18,437 feeling a bit anxious or uncertain when you're talking about money and pricing. 538 00:27:19,007 --> 00:27:22,577 Until next time, uh, I hope you have a great rest of the week. 539 00:27:22,577 --> 00:27:25,457 Thank you very much for your time and attention and, uh, 540 00:27:25,487 --> 00:27:27,647 yeah, keep on pricing happy. 541 00:27:33,491 --> 00:27:35,171 I'm gonna find a better slogan. 542 00:27:35,921 --> 00:27:38,861 We're gonna, we've gotta have an end one and a beginning one. 543 00:27:39,219 --> 00:27:39,489 Oh yeah. 544 00:27:39,489 --> 00:27:41,199 Answers on a postcard, please, please send. 545 00:27:41,199 --> 00:27:41,769 How to begin? 546 00:27:41,769 --> 00:27:42,369 How to end? 547 00:27:42,472 --> 00:27:42,952 Tweet me.