So I dunno if any of you have been, uh, got the email or you just ha arriving

here at random, but I was sharing a story about, uh, as Frances put it,

middle class problems when, when the woman who does your ironing is apologetic

about her pricing, and she kindly pointed out spelling mistakes as well.

For those of you who, uh, didn't read the email, I'll share the story

that inspired the conversation.

Uh, lovely Shirley, she, she does ironing for us because, A, I am lazy

and BI actually enjoy ironing, but there are better things that I need to do,

uh, with my time other than ironing.

She always sends me a text saying, this is the price, it took me this

much time, I hope that's okay.

And I, we've been, she'd been working, we're doing ironing for us for like,

at least two or three years, four actually before the pandemic, so I

know now there's, there's that thing.

I know how to timeframe things now, if it was before the pandemic,

at least two or three years.

But anyway, but every single time is it okay?

Is it okay?

And to be honest, it was amazing until she said It's okay.

Because like, Hmm.

Is it okay?

Is that, is that, why are you doubting that price?

Mm.

Uh.

'cause now I'm thinking, well, do, I, I don't feel so comfortable now

paying this much money for ironing.

Uh, when I was before that, that, that little three little four words

question, uh, sentence, I was like, oh.

I was like, fine until now.

I was like, oh, okay.

So it made me think, oh, how, what does, how do we turn up, uh, in our businesses?

Whether it's presenting our prices or sending out a proposal or telling someone

a price, what energy are we bringing that and how damaging I'm gonna say,

or how problematic it can be when you turn up with that apologetic energy.

Does surely change her price each time she does her ironing?

Yes.

So the rates are always the same.

How long she takes is different each time.

And to be honest, a lot of the time I don't even look at the number.

I'm just grateful that someone's doing the work.

Yeah.

'Cause like I don't really care how much I'm paying unless,

unless it starts to really hurt.

It's that thing.

When it starts, I notice it and I, I can't say what I mean what, or I notice

it is like, but there's gonna be a point in my, I feel like actually do you know?

Maybe I should do my own ironing.

But yeah, no, no, her rates, uh, but in terms of the, the only reason

the number changes is because the amount of time she spends on it.

And, and I kind of correlate it to the size of the motherfucking

bag that I'm giving it to her.

Mm-Hmm.

And so I expect if it's a big bag, it's gonna be a bit higher

than if it's a smaller bag.

'Cause maybe what she's anxious about is the fluctuating amount, 'cause I

know the rate change stays the same, but there's a kind of fluctuating amount.

So in fluctuating amount there is, there is change, there is uncertainty.

So there's all those things, which is why actually in many ways, charging by the

hour, this is not necessarily relevant to Shirley, but given we've started with

Shirley, we'll continue with Shirley, the, uh, by charging by the hour and having

an open-ended agreement with the people that you are, you are, you are working

for or working with that does kind of bake uncertainty into the, into the engagement,

into the, into the transaction.

And you know, we may not think about that when it feels sort of small.

Like it's just, you know, is it one hour or one and a half, an hour

and a half or whatever it might be?

But it might be that part of what is happening is that there is a feeling of

uncertainty that she has, which is kind of something separate to, uh, whether

she's feeling apologetic about it, whether she's nervous about it, but it might just

mean that actually she is also feeling a degree of uncertainty around that, and

she is responding and reacting to that feeling of uncertainty that is, uh, that

is kind of present given that it is a, it is a fluctuating and changing thing.

As, yeah, I like, I like that explanation in terms of, it's not just the apology,

it's the, is this gonna be well received?

It sounds like.

It's like, oh my God, I'm, am I gonna get some kind of reaction from the

person because now I presented the price that I didn't agree in the first place.

And so now how is, that, was that amount of time?

And I remember from agency days not having the balls in inverted

commas to talk about, uh, a piece of work or, let's put it another way.

We tried to try and do fixed cost stuff at the beginning.

'cause again, um, we thought it would make people buy from us more easily.

But then we also found a lot that I found anyway, as a developer, some problems,

especially bespoke, they take a lot longer than you thought they were gonna be.

And so the other thing was like, okay, yeah, we'll do it and I'll

tell you the time at the end.

And then getting to that point, like, it took me eight hours and

Oh God, can I say eight hours?

Do I need six hours?

Was that and that energy?

Then I brought to just even writing that email of the uncertainty

of this is gonna be received well, A, that was really painful.

And then it's like, you send and I go, Ugh.

Sitting in that space of like, oh my God, are they gonna come back at

me with, oh no, that's too much, or That's too expensive, or, oh my God,

you know, that too took too long.

You know?

Questions.

Mm.

So there's something here, at the very least, there's something here

about creating more certainty in this relationship around what is to be done,

what is to be expected, what is a value, and how much people will pay for it.

Mm-Hmm.

You know, everybody to varying degrees is uncomfortable with uncertainty and whether

you are the person buying the services, the uncertainty is uncomfortable is,

you know, what's it gonna end up being?

Is it gonna be more than I've got or whatever, you know, it might be.

And equally the uncertainty also kind of plays out on the part of the

person who is providing for sure.

I think there is the other thing, which in a way potentially your kind

of the, the story as you articulated initially was alluding to, which is

also the point about whether or not we do come with a kind of unapologetic

undertone to how we talk about money.

Uh, and you know, I think you know that that for sure does also happen.

And it may be that that is what's happening in this instance, like

I said, it may be something else.

But I think that there is also, there is also that tr that truth.

Oftentimes we do bring these sort of undertones to our

conversations around money.

Sometimes we do come with an apologetic feeling, a feeling

that, you know, it's too much, I shouldn't be doing this, maybe.

Then that links to sort of stories about am I worth it and all of those

sorts of things, which actually oftentimes do come up when we're talking

about money with people for sure.

Yeah, I think that's a really useful point to, to add there is that deeper aspect

to, um, to this, um, engagement that we have with the client and, uh, the stories

that we are telling ourselves about receiving money and whether it's okay.

And how that, well, how that then affects the, the energy or

the feelings, the perceptions of the client, of the customer.

Mm-Hmm.

Because we're then projecting.

We're projecting our stories on other people, how useful is that and

how, and then how truthful is that?

Mm-Hmm.

I think is, is the, the question, so we, we are like, there's two aspects.

It feels that, for two levels we're talking about this in terms of the,

there's a kind of a strategic, uh, tactical execution level where, do

you know what, because I haven't agreed upfront the, the terms,

the payment, you know, the amount.

When I then go to the customer and tell them how much it costs

after doing the work, that creates uncertainty for everyone.

And so that will add to the fear that something might go wrong

in terms of that conversation.

And then there's the, the stories we're telling ourselves are just about

receiving money, and how when we tell stories that disempower ourselves.

How that also potentially disempowers the customer.

Mm-Hmm.

So, given those two scenarios, maybe we can talk to, all right, how can

we think about mitigating them?

What were the things that people can maybe take away?

When thinking about those two situations that can help them

minimize those things coming about or affecting themselves adversely.

Yeah.

I mean, I guess one thing on the second part you were talking about there,

about whether the stories that we're telling ourselves about accepting

money, in a way, of course, that this is all sort of massively helpful in

terms of a, a takeaway thing, but of course, all that's happening there, it's

not really about the money, that bit.

We're, we are then projecting a story about ourselves that we

tell ourselves onto the money.

So you know that, you know, am I allowed to ask for this amount of

money, you know, pretty quickly is sort of becomes linked to a story about

whether I'm worth it and all of those sorts of things, which are obviously

kind of much, much deeper lying things.

So I kind of say that not because I have some sort of very helpful

or easy thing that people can take away to deal with that, but I think

it is worthwhile understanding that oftentimes, you know, money is like,

you know, and I know, uh, who's, he wrote the book, the 30 Lies About Money?

Oh, uh, Peter Koenig.

Yeah.

Right.

Okay.

So I think in, in that there's kind of lots of really, really kind of useful

pointers about the fact that really what we're doing is we are projecting

our own stories onto it, you know.

Ideas that, uh, money is security or money is freedom, or money is,

whatever you might kind of put into there is basically just a sequence of

us projecting these ideas onto money.

And in the same way, you know, the, to your thing there about.

Whether we're allowed to get this money, that is again, just us projecting a

story about whether we are allowed to do something, whether we're entitled

to do something, whether it is, you know, whether, you know, whether

we're allowed to kind of do that.

So I think us projecting onto money is something that we do,

'cause obviously money is a hugely emotionally charged thing.

So again, I kind of say that not because there is a.

Sort of simple takeaway for people, but oftentimes that is what's happening.

We're feeling nervous about it.

We're feeling apologetic about it, we're feeling anxious about it.

We're feeling uncertain about it, it's because we're feeling nervous

or we're feeling anxious, or we're feeling whatever it might be.

We're just projecting those things onto the money.

Well, I think there is something helpful here, and this is, and we talk about,

um, in our work at the Happy Startup School, this idea of the transformational

idea that takes us out of chaos.

The shift in perspective and thinking that helps us look at a situation a

different way so that we can grow more powerfully in that aspect of our lives.

And in this case, let's talk about pricing.

To begin to a place where we more feel more powerful and confident.

About the way we price.

And one of the one idea that's really important that I think, you

know, which you were explaining is this idea that money, this

idea about money is not objective.

You know, the value of money or the process, the, the, the belief

around money is not objective.

Yes.

From a system point of view of economics and the way people talk about it in a

economic system, it's a, a method of exchange of value, you know, if you're

gonna take a technical term, but like in the book, so this is Peter Koenig's

book 30 Lies About Money, i, I've read it, I learned about it really mainly

through Charles Davies and um, Tom Nixon, who are members of our community.

My understanding around that is that whenever anyone talks about money, they

talk about it through their own lens.

So for me, the idea that helped me is that by understanding my story

about money, I then realize other people have a story about money.

And so when we are talking about money, don't assume that you're

talking about the same thing.

When you are talking about a certain amount of money, don't assume that

we all value it in the same way.

And so how much I'm willing to spend isn't necessarily, or the feeling I

have about a certain amount of money when I spend it, isn't gonna be the

same that someone else feels about it.

Mm-Hmm.

And similarly, when I receive a certain amount of money, just because I feel a

bit weird about, it, doesn't necessarily, everyone else has the same feeling.

So, uh, the takeaway for me is don't assume that what you are feeling

is what the other person's feeling.

Just because you are not willing to pay two and a half grand for something doesn't

mean that they're not perfectly happy to pay you two and a half grand for something

Or even the extent of that, that actually it's important to them that they are, that

they are spending that amount of money.

So the kind of the story that they're telling, the judgment that they have

around it, the, the kind of view of the amounts are all, is the subjective thing.

'Cause you know, in that instance, whatever the thing, it may be important

for somebody for their own identity and the own, the story that they tell

themselves to be seen, to be investing appropriately as they would say in

whatever the, the service may be.

But yes, I think that is, uh, that's a, a, a useful point, uh, sort of reminding

of the subject, the subjectivity of it.

Yeah.

And, and an example that springs to mind that's quite close to home is, is my dad.

And like I, I was buying him a, a mobile phone, an iPhone.

I know what he needs.

He doesn't really need the, the best one, he just needs one that works most of

the work perfectly well for most people.

And so I said, you know, get this version and it costs, I can't

remember his classic 999 quid.

And he's like, no, but that isn't the best one.

So there's this thing about like, no, no, I can't buy that one

because that's not the top thing and it needs to be the top thing.

So there's a story about if it costs this much, if it's the best thing,

then it's much more, you know, there's something, there's a, a value not

tied to the actual functionality there that he's projecting on this purchase.

Mm-Hmm.

And so that for me is like, okay, there, I'm just thinking about that now.

It's like there's similarly with anyone who's buying from us, like you said,

there's something around, I want to pay more money 'cause it makes me feel

better about myself for whatever reason.

So that's one thing.

Mm-Hmm.

Then there's this okay, but this uncertainty piece.

Mm-Hmm.

When we are going into an engagement or when we are gonna work with someone.

Mitigating that.

Mm-Hmm.

And what, do you have any thoughts for people who are starting a

relationship with new person, uh, a new customer and wanting to feel

more calm in themselves about.

I wondered where we were going there with the starting relationship with

the new person, and it felt like we were, we were veering off into

sort of completely new territory.

That's, and maybe maybe beyond the, the realm of the podcast.

I don't know.

There's a very different podcast, a bit of a mash up there, Very niche,

kind of like in, uh, transaction there.

But yes, working with a new customer or client or actually any customer

or client to be honest, but where the, yeah, where, where, like you

said, price could change each time.

Mm-Hmm.

Or the, isn't the fixed price that people just come but pay

for the thing and they're off.

Mm-Hmm.

Um, any suggestions or thoughts scenarios, and then based on those scenarios, kind of

situations that, or things that you people could do to, to mitigate that uncertainty?

Yeah.

Uh, well, the, like, I was, I was curious actually about the example that you shared

of your agency knows where there, there was an idea about how long something would

take, but then it just takes much longer.

So that says to me, the developer's not spent the time upfront thinking about

the range of things that might go wrong.

But is that, is that just sort of, uh, ignorance on my part?

So there, there's, specifically, uh, in the situation I'm thinking

about, we are making something very bespoke and very new.

And so, on one hand, had I known what I know now, the value of it was

nothing to do with how long it took, it's how it related to the outcome

of the project and what it meant for the business of the customer.

However, as an agency, our business model is dependent on making enough

money to pay, pay, make payroll.

Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.

And so the more time I spend on something, the more expensive I

am, uh, and that affects profits.

And so this is real tricky balance where on one hand the, it's like

there's a, I remember one client saying, well, you know, we both have

to have skin in the game in this.

You know why as a customer I'm taking all the risk when I dunno the price.

And it is that aspect of like, I, well I don't know exactly how much, how long it's

gonna take 'cause it's a completely new thing not only that I'm doing, but that,

it doesn't exist, it's clearly bespoke.

Mm-Hmm.

So there was a, in a sense, there was a, an agreement that needed to be made

that there was a level of risk here.

But then, like you said, that creates uncertainty, which

isn't great for a customer.

And so in that situation, I either suck up the cost which then doesn't, isn't great

for the business, um, or the customer.

Buys into this idea that we are in a, um, an agile environment.

Mm-Hmm.

And so we take a process of like, how do we minimize.

The risk to the customer.

Well, basically how do we remove the fear that the customer's gonna get a

massive bill that they didn't realize and suddenly they have no more money left.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because that, that, you know, is a real fear for somebody who's buying something

that feels like it could be open-ended, I mean, you know, within reason, of course.

But, so then it kind of makes me think about, you know,

what is being sold and how?

Because I think this is, you know, and, and in that, that sort of sense,

'cause I think the, the, the goal needs to be for everybody's sake.

No, we're talking, we know this all started with Shirley and whether

Shirley's anxious about the uncertainty and whether you are anxious about the

uncertainty and all of those things.

So it is actually better for everybody that we try and find some sort of,

um, some kind of, some certainty that we try and weave some certainty,

at least some or or managed risk into, into the, into engagement.

And so taking your example there of developing a completely bespoke new

thing again, so if the process is broken down a little bit, so you might

be saying to the client, look, I.

We have no idea.

I mean, you know, within reason w you know, what's gonna come up, how it's

gonna, how we will sort of do about this.

We have some idea based on other things, which might be sort of similar.

But you know, it can be a bit open-ended because, you know, unknown

things can happen during the process and those unknown things might

require additional work, et cetera.

So in a way, you know, this also then starts to link a little bit to options

that we've also speak about otherwise.

So then a choice for a client, because again, giving them choices

might be helpful, there are different ways of playing the game, right?

You know, Mr.

and Mrs.

Client, we could head down this way, which is completely open-ended,

you're gonna pay for the time.

I don't know what it's gonna take.

You know, my best endeavors, it'll be less than that, but it could be more.

I don't know.

We'll, this, we go into a completely open-ended thing.

Or I guess also from your point of view, uh, from the, the creator, the

developer's point of view, you might say, as an alternative or, look, we

agree to a smaller initial investment.

And that's gonna be fixed so that we're all kind of clear.

And in that initial investment, you know, we might call that a scoping

thing, this then links to kind of what you are selling, essentially.

So a process that you might sell.

We say, look, you know, you make an initial investment, it will be fixed

in that we will do the exploratory work that's necessary to be sure

about what follows thereafterwards.

So you may get an initial investment, which is gonna be fixed.

Out of that we can have clarity or much more clarity around what's gonna

be required and how we would progress.

And there will be a then a cost for doing that work thereafter.

So you kind of finding ways of bringing a bit more clarity, a bit

more certainty into the process.

Maybe at the same time as giving them different options and

different ways that they can engage.

But I think the goal, the owners should be on us.

The provider, the seller of the serviceness, to make these things as, as

clear and as sort of safe as possible.

Because this is what it links to is whether in the mind, the heart,

mind of the person who's buying it, does it feel safe to buy this thing?

And uncertainty doesn't feel safe.

So the onus is on us to try and find ways or sort of lending the

lending the transaction, lending the sale a bit more, a bit more safety.

And so what, what springs to mind in terms of like this situation?

You know, the way I'm gonna break it down the situation, particularly in

the agency days when I was doing a lot of the development, is what the client

wants and there's what I wanna do.

I loved tackling naughty technical problems and finding

the most elegant solution.

And it is something as a joy of just like doing that.

The client just wanted to make sure that the button worked.

Mm-Hmm.

And so the thing that I've learned is actually, either need to let go

of doing the most elegant thing and just make it work, or I find clients

who value the most elegant solution.

Yeah.

Because that will me give me freedom to really dive deep and spend a day doing

just this one thing, because there's a perceived value in that from the client.

Yeah.

And I could talk 'til the cows come home about it being responsive and

working on a different, on different devices and being, you know, all of

these things that maybe the client even hasn't got any customers yet.

They just wanna make sure that this business actually has any legs, so

whether the button works on the mobile phone or tablet and a PC at, in the

same way, they don't really care.

Yeah.

And that, the thing that comes up for me there is, is understanding what

the client is actually buying, which is another thing obviously we sort

of talk about a lot on the course and through all of these sort of things.

What is it the client is actually buying?

And so I think about this in, you know, one of my last businesses, Free State,

where we were essentially selling design services to, but what the client was

buying, 'cause our client, you know, we were a relatively small, sort of

entrepreneurial design creative agency.

Our clients were senior people in large organizations.

And so actually part of what they were buying when they were buying

FreeState was they were satisfying their own creative entrepreneurial itch.

And yes, there's, there's some element of the, the what of what

they're buying, but actually there's all of those emotive aspects too.

And that, and so I, I share that because it's a similar kind of thing

to what you were talking about there.

What is the client actually buying?

In some instances it will be important to the client, to a client, that

they, because of how they feel about themselves and the story that they

tell themselves, to always be investing in that, you know, the, the kind of,

the, the well thought through crafted solution that's important to them.

There will be other clients, which is, you know, about a, you know, for

want of a better phrase, a kind of quicker and dirtier thing, that that's

what's important to them because that's the story that they tell themselves.

And so, like you say, actually the, the outcome, the end point might be the same.

It's a button on a screen or whatever it might be, but actually

the thing that they're buying, the story that they're telling.

Is the important thing.

And we do really need to understand what that is because that points

to the value, that points to how much somebody is willing to invest.

It points it.

It provides your signals to price.

And I like the way you brought in the word story again, within it, you know,

there's the stories we tell ourselves and the stories our clients tell

themselves the story about the value.

So bringing it back to Shirley, lovely, Shirley.

I, as well as buying nice, ironed clothes that feel nice when I

put them on, I'm buying time.

And in a sense, I could say, as long as it doesn't cost more

than 50 quid an hour, I'm okay.

Because in my head, that is less than the value of my time per hour.

And so she could, like, if she knew that, then anytime she'd sent me a bill that was

less than 50 quid an hour, she wouldn't even have to say, I hope that's okay,

because she knew exactly that's okay.

Mm-Hmm.

Because she knew that that's how much I am, that's the number

in my head that is the kind of like acceptable or of of value.

And so, yeah.

I, I'm just offering that as a way, like when we are working with clients is that

if we're able to start understanding what those numbers are, then we don't have

to be so apologetic because it's, it's, they're comfortable with those numbers.

Mm-Hmm.

And the other thing like, um, for Shirley, I think going links back to

the clarity, the uncertainty thing, you know, if Shirley were to say to you that

actually the maximum this would ever be.

Is 50 pounds or whatever the number is, um, and so it will always be,

unless you know, it will essentially, it will always be less than that

unless something exceptional happens, and so there it's all, you know,

it's always within expectation, it's always within expectation.

Until the time when Shirley arrives.

And there's not only all of your shirts, but you've gathered all of the shirts

of the entire street, and Shirley's faced with this part, and she thinks,

there's no fucking way I'm gonna be able to get this done for less 50,

but then she can bring that up in the beginning before you get into it to say,

actually the circumstances have changed.

This situation is different to all the situations that preceded it.

Therefore, we should have a conversation about this before I begin.

Yeah, no, it's great to mention there's that fear of like,

well, so one hand, with that.

For instance, it's always 50, uh, 50 quid every fortnight.

I'm buying certainty as well.

Mm-Hmm.

And I'm buying the ability to just budget and say, all right,

forget that 50 quid a minute.

Just take it out.

Direct debit.

I don't even have to think about it.

And I'll just always know I'll have well ironed, closed.

And then there's this, uh, from a supplier's point of view, like, oh my

God, they might take advantage of me.

Yeah.

Well then that's where you need to be able to set parameters

or discuss the parameters.

Mm-Hmm.

Be very clear about.

All right, this is what you know, and it's really interesting to discuss what

it means to be within reason and how that's a whole different discussion

there really about how to go down to nitty gritty, 'cause you start doing

itemized pricing, whatever you wanna do.

But anyway, there is, well the thing is, there's a trust that

neither party's gonna take the piss.

Mm-Hmm.

But also, uh, I, what are they buying?

Are they buying.

In my case, I'm buying time and certainty.

Not only certainty in how much I'm gonna pay, but certainty in

terms of like, it'll get done and I don't have to worry about it.

Mm-Hmm.

You also buy some stress removed.

'Cause I think there's a thing like in your mind, somewhere in your

mind, you know, there's an idea that the ironing is a thing to be done.

Yeah.

And so yes, there's a thing, I get iron clothes, but actually

it, there's a story somewhere.

Ironing is a thing over there, which is to be done, and Shirley is

taking that to be done thing away.

So actually that is, you know, there, there is huge value in that.

There's huge kind of gain in that.

And then there's a story's like my mom telling me, you clothes should be ironed.

Why aren't they ironed?

Yeah.

It's like, oh no.

So I need to make sure my clothes are ironed.

But you know, that's an illustration of this.

Something that isn't even to do with the ironing.

It isn't to do with how much work done.

It's about the story I'm telling myself about buying this service.

Or else if I don't buy this service or I don't have that outcome,

that it says something, oh, I feel there's a cost of me not buying it.

Mm.

If that makes sense.

And it's an emotional cost, not just a tangible physical service-based cost.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, well hopefully, um, Shirley's got more customers.

Power to Shirley.

Power to Shirley.

Hopefully, uh, those of you who are listening still,.

Still.

Have got some food for thought about how to minimize any kind of

uncertainty or apology when you are asking for money or sharing a price.

And also an awareness, an increased awareness or maybe in a, a further

investigation into the stories that you are telling yourself when you are

feeling a bit anxious or uncertain when you're talking about money and pricing.

Until next time, uh, I hope you have a great rest of the week.

Thank you very much for your time and attention and, uh,

yeah, keep on pricing happy.

I'm gonna find a better slogan.

We're gonna, we've gotta have an end one and a beginning one.

Oh yeah.

Answers on a postcard, please, please send.

How to begin?

How to end?

Tweet me.