Ross - take 2 0 (copy) (1)

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season five, episode 18 of People's Soup. It's Ross McIntosh.

[00:00:06] Ross: And I was working, I was meeting more people, a wider variety of people and thinking Oh right, okay. They still took me a while to, to come out because I used to hear people talking about other people in the office, maybe fellas who were quite camp.

[00:00:26] Ross: A bit like those role models, like. Mr. Humphreys, and they would be quite outrageous in the office. And people would say things like, oh, keep your backs to the wall around him, or Shirtlifter, things like that. Now, okay, well that's not very nice. And then kind of coming to terms with, well actually I'm one of them too.

[00:00:46] Ross: I might not be as, as Mr. Humphreys, but this is who I am. And starting, starting to come out to people in the workplace. and I didn't know how to do it. The first, I remember the first people I came out to in the workplace were kind of people I was close to. And I, and it sounds so deaf saying this now, but I would say to them, um, I've got something I want to tell you and I'm not sure how you're gonna take it.

[00:01:14] Ross: Paupers this week. It's a bit different. It's a podcast mashup, a collaboration. I was invited to be a guest on the Shit Shower and Shave podcast hosted by Dr. Steve Jones. Now Steve is a friend of the show. He's already been on People's Soup talking about his brilliant book Act Made. Since then, he's got the podcast bug and launched his own and with his guests, he explores what does it mean to be a man?

[00:01:40] Ross: What does mental health mean to man? and how are we able to talk more about the stuff that we might otherwise keep tucked away at the back of our sock drawer

[00:01:49] Ross: and my chat with Steve was spread across two episodes. So I thought I'd share the second one where I reflect upon my experience of being a gay man in the workplace, gay role models when I was [00:02:00] growing up. Assumptions we can make about others and how we're all still learning in the workplace.

[00:02:05] Ross: and coincidentally, I'm recording this episode in the house where I grew. I'm visiting my dad, big G for the weekend and as ever for your audio pleasure, I'm recording it under the duvet to give you the hopefully the best audio quality, which is bizarre cuz it's also where I used to read my sister's copy of Upper fourth Mallory Towers about a girl's public school.

[00:02:28] Ross: People Soup is an award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to help you glow to work a bit more often. let's just scoot over to the news desk for reviews are in for part two of my chat with Dr. Kevin Te. Alan Hayes on LinkedIn said a genuinely decent chap. I'm sure one of the nicest things about Kevin is that he approaches things with the idea that people might find this difficult to understand. So I'll try to explain it in as simple and as engaging terms as I can, and if that doesn't work, I'll try it a different way. And I think what Alan does there is capture the essence of Kevin and his skill as an educator And someone who makes the science available to a far wider audience, making it applicable and useful.

[00:03:23] Ross: and thanks so much to everyone who listened, rated and reviewed, perhaps talked about it with a friend, recommended the podcast. With your help, we can reach more people with stuff that could be useful. You can find out all about the show, including the show notes and transcripts@rossmcintosh.co.uk and also on uh, captivate podcast website at people soup dot captivate dot f. But for now, get a brew on and have a listen to me as a guest on the Shit Shower and Shave podcast with Dr.

[00:03:54] Ross: Steve Jones.

[00:03:59] Steve: [00:04:00] Welcome to the Shit Shower and Self-Care podcast, A place for men to talk about the stuff that matters. But now grab yourself a drink and let's crack on.

[00:04:21] Steve: Welcome to this episode of The Shit Shower and Self-Care podcast. And the second part of my chat with Ross McIntosh. I'm not gonna waste any time with long-winded introductions. We're just gonna get straight into this. Enjoy. Russ. Uh, as well, I wanted to talk about, um, another part of, of, of your life, of, of your, your experiences that you've, you've, you've mentioned to me mm-hmm.

[00:04:52] Steve: in terms of. , sort of your life, your experience as, as part of you as a gay man working in, well, multiple organizations and just sort of how, how you might have experienced different things or how that might have impacted on, on your experiences at work.

[00:05:15] Ross: Yeah, yeah. Great. Great topic to explore, I think because.

[00:05:23] Ross: everyone's, everyone's story is different. Anyone who's listening whose L G B T will have their own perceptions and stories of what's happened to them in the workplace. And there's a, there's a, there is an element of, because they work with lots of different organizations, there's a freelancer, there's always an element that I'm far less worried about.

[00:05:48] Ross: but there used to be an element of, if I was engaging with a new organization or maybe bidding for work for a new organization, in the initial conversations I'd try to throw in words [00:06:00] like, um, husband, uh, or as a gay man, just to be absolutely explicit. But it is a bit like coming out each time to a, to a new audience.

[00:06:15] Ross: And now that. rather than being so intentional now, it's kind of much more just woven into how I am and I am far less concerned about it. But I think growing up in a, a small village in the Northeast, in the kind of 1970s, eighties, and not really seeing any role models, Not any role models on tally or in politics?

[00:06:51] Ross: In music and music, maybe a bit, but they were so exotic and kind of in another world to me that I couldn't really identify. And actually I wasn't really sure who I was. I knew I was different. I knew I was different in primary school. I wasn't sure what it was, but I just knew there was so. not the same as the others.

[00:07:16] Ross: A feeling of otherness. And I think not having role models didn't really help. The role models. We were mentioned, we were chatting about this on email, but the role models I can think of who probably weren't that helpful, but I do look on with great fondness, were role models from a sitcom. Is it a sitcom?

[00:07:41] Ross: Yeah. Called Are you being Served About a department store. And there was a outrageously camp assistant in there, Mr. Humphrey. He was like, are you being served? Ooh, Mr. Humphreys type thing. And it will ride up with where, so it's kind of like, I [00:08:00] thought he's different. He's funny, he's very expressive, but I wasn't sure what was happening, but it was hilarious.

[00:08:09] Ross: Then you'll remember a program called The Generation Game. Mm-hmm. Steve. But once upon a time it was Bruce Forsyth. Then it was a fellow called Larry Grayson, who was camp as a row of tents, and it was outrageous, the things he said, outrageous. And I think my parents had no clue. , they were just thinking, oh, he's a funny fella, isn't he funny?

[00:08:40] Ross: But he would talk about, oh, my best friend Everard and my other best friend, slack Alice. And it was just directly in your face being sort of using gay vocabulary and, oh, shut that door. What a gay day. And it was hilarious. And similarly, I wasn't really sure what was going on, but I thought it was hilarious.

[00:09:07] Ross: And then I guess the other one is, is thinking about, there used to be this program called Summertime Special in the summer where there were, there were male dancers who were perhaps they quite expressive and wearing fancy outfits. And I used to think, oh, aren't they amazing? And then feeling a bit like, oh, when my dad would go look at them panzi potters, and.

[00:09:33] Ross: before I go any fell. Let me just say, my dad is wonderful and loving and fully supportive of the gay man that I am, and, and we just have these expressions that we don't really, we don't really give a second thought to when we say them, and particularly not in the 1970s. So I guess it took me a while to realize who I was and what that I was a gay man.

[00:09:57] Ross: And then, , by this time I was in the [00:10:00] workplace. So while I was at uni, I was still trying to work out what the hell is going on here and, and didn't come out at uni. Didn't, didn't really come out to myself either. And then once I'd started working, it kind of dawned on me, I was in Big London, well, big London, I say Big London.

[00:10:22] Ross: I was in Big Croydon. Not quite as glamorous as Big London, but fairly near. And I was working, I was meeting more people, a wider variety of people and thinking Oh right, okay. They still took me a while to, to come out because I used to hear people talking about other people in the office, maybe fellas who were quite camp.

[00:10:52] Ross: A bit like those role models, like. Mr. Humphreys, and they would be quite outrageous in the office. And people would say things like, oh, keep your backs to the wall around him, or Shirtlifter, things like that. Now, okay, well that's not very nice. And then kind of coming to terms with, well actually I'm one of them too.

[00:11:13] Ross: I might not be as, as Mr. Humphreys, but this is who I am. And starting, starting to come out to people in the workplace. and I didn't know how to do it. The first, I remember the first people I came out to in the workplace were kind of people I was close to. And I, and it sounds so deaf saying this now, but I would say to them, um, I've got something I want to tell you and I'm not sure how you're gonna take it.

[00:11:42] Ross: And, and if you don't want to be friends with me anymore, that's okay. and looking back on younger Ross saying that to people who really cared about him and loved him, like I say, it feels daft. And of course no one ever said, right, that's it, mate. Fuck off . But it was, [00:12:00] but it was like,

[00:12:03] Steve: there's not an instruction manual on that, is there on how to put that across?

[00:12:11] Ross: No. And there was, there was no, yeah. I talk, I mentioned role models from pop. I mean, I used to love, I still do the Communards, erasure, proud gay men. People like Mark Armand as well, but they were just so exotic and talking about things and singing songs about love between two men. It was just like, oh, I couldn't, I couldn't even contemplate that.

[00:12:43] Ross: They didn't quite work as role models for me. Okay. They were kind of otherworldly, but then still experiences more recently in the workplace, but not, I mean, let's think probably over a decade, probably about 15 years ago. Things, just little things happening in the workplace. Little comments where you. . Oh, and this, this is when I was out in the workplace and I remember one time this big project going on, it was in the civil service and it was all hands to the pump cuz something had gone a bit pear shaped.

[00:13:23] Ross: So we had to stay later. So everyone was phoning home. And so I, my husband and I came back and I said to the project leader, I didn't know that well, and the man, and then I said, oh, just phone. Phone my husband to tell him I'll be late. And not to, not to wait for me to have his dinner. And he went . He said, husband, you met your phone, your wife.

[00:13:47] Ross: I was like, well, well, no, no, I know. I know what I said. I said, husband, and he whisper, , you, you mean your wife? You didn't hear what you just said. And I kind of went, yeah. Yes, I did. I don't think [00:14:00] you are hearing what I've just said. I meant to say husband, and he was, he was mortified. , but it was just like the assumptions people make about each other.

[00:14:10] Ross: And then couple more thoughts, uh, round a senior table. And we were waiting for a minister to arrive. Uh, it was Peter Mandelson and he was visiting a port that day and he was late for a meeting with me and some senior people, and he was coming back. I think it was Portsmouth. I can't quite remember. and a woman on the opposite side of the table said, um, oh, he's probably been detained looking at sailors down by the port.

[00:14:48] Ross: And then she looked me in the eye and went, no offense, Ross. And I was like, what the hell? It's kind of like, I mean, I can laugh about this and it doesn't bother me. And I spoke to her after the meeting. , how fucking rude.

[00:15:05] Steve: How the principle of it, whether it, whether you are in a, if you are, feel, you know, regardless of where you are.

[00:15:13] Steve: Mm-hmm. , the principle of it is. Yeah. Just why

[00:15:20] Ross: mm-hmm. and, and what if there was someone else in that meeting who was a gay man who was not out and they heard talk like that and they thought right. Let's keep the door closed on that wardrobe. I'm not coming out. Look what happens. I'm not welcome here. So

[00:15:44] Steve: just hearing that language of, so in most workplaces I've, I've been where you hear people, you know, making comments of whether it's, you know, whether it's.

[00:15:58] Steve: Sort of gay men or gay [00:16:00] women, whether it's about basically if we go for non-white straight people and whatever, or anything that fits the very, very middle of yeah, what is expected, and I'm saying in expected and inverted commerce and there's a sense of, well, there's, it's fine. There's no one, no one. . Mm.

[00:16:27] Steve: And you know this how, yeah. Now everything is worn as a badge. When I said earlier that I, you know, people comment, it's like, oh, you all okay? Right. That's fine. That's very, you can see, you would probably stop making comments about someone being lanky at that point, because you can. . A lot of what we're talking, it's not something that's visible.

[00:16:58] Steve: And this thing about watching your language and understanding the harm that words can do, even if it's not directly offensive, it can still influence someone else's story.

[00:17:11] Ross: Absolutely. And I think it's beholden on us to call that out. and to challenge things like, oh, I was only joking. Oh, that's just the way Bob is.

[00:17:29] Ross: He says what he sees, he speaks his mind. We're never gonna change him. And he was only joking. And no, actually you are, you are negating someone else in the workplace. You're being offensive and it's not accept.

[00:17:50] Steve: and I think there's something as well. And you know, I, I know I mentioned this too, you know, sort of in, in the purpose of sort of full disclosure, I remember [00:18:00] and the assumptions that we make about, about people.

[00:18:03] Steve: When we were first talking, I remember I heard the word husband, sort of Hmm. Flipping into a conversation as, as you, as you mentioned, that just, just happened. You know, it's part of experience. and immediately my mind started doing mental gymnastics of have I said anything? Have I made any assumptions?

[00:18:22] Steve: What have I done here? What have I not done here? Make sure you don't say any of these things, the things that your brain. In the same way though, if I'm driving on a bridge and my brain automatically goes, wonder what happens if you drive off here? It's like you never have any attention of doing it. Your brain gives you the worst thing that could possibly.

[00:18:44] Steve: you know, you're not going to say any of those things. You know that they, if you, they are not true reflections of you, and yet your mind still goes, what if you do? But all that came from an assumption that I wasn't even aware I was making at the time.

[00:19:04] Steve: And that's, again, really it, it sits very uncomfortable that you do that in a very human and very innocent way. still notice that you do it and call attention to it so that you can try to learn from it.

[00:19:20] Ross: Yeah, and I think people can sometimes feel like they're sort of over vigilant about their behavior or the vocabulary, and I w I wouldn't like to create that.

[00:19:33] Ross: I, I would like some level of vigilance, but I also acknowledge that we're all human and we'll all make mistakes. So it, it's not to, to call it out and go to immediately to attend. I'm calling something out. It's, it's going, it's just saying maybe just pulling someone aside and saying, look, that word there is, I find it quite offensive, so [00:20:00] feel free to ask me why I do and, and how I can explain it to you.

[00:20:04] Ross: But I just want to let you know. , it, it, it might be impacting on other people who are overhearing our conversation. I'm not sure if I'm explaining that that clearly, but Do you get what I mean?

[00:20:23] Steve: There's a willing, I think the, the thing that's coming across is that even if you make mistakes, it's a willingness to have the conversation.

[00:20:35] Steve: A willingness to, yes, this might feel uncomfortable or it might feel awkward. Well, that's okay. It can feel like that. It can feel difficult, and you've got a willingness to, to turn towards that conversation and understand why you are doing something might offend someone else, and to understand that both ways.

[00:21:02] Ross: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's, it goes back to those facets. I think that recognizing that we're all individual made up individuals made up of many facets in the workplace, and to do our best to show respect and to keep learning, we need, we all need to keep learning. I. I am always assured to check the pronunciation of names for people.

[00:21:36] Ross: And even if I have to practice it a couple of times with them, I said, would you just, would you just help me out? Cause I want to get this right and, and, and, and kind of get a bit of coaching from them in, in the pronunciation. And for me, that's important for them. I don't want. Shorten it. I want to try and deliver it the way as best I can, [00:22:00] and I think there's, there's, there's so much learning for us all about facets.

[00:22:06] Ross: If we start thinking about pronouns, people's preferred pronouns, that's a new facet for me and I'm still learning about it, and I'm still trying to. Use the correct pronouns where, for instance, in a Zoom meeting where I see people have put their pronouns, I am very vigilant on myself to try and get it right, and also to ask for people's support if I've, if I've used the incorrect pronoun just to help me out and flag it so I can keep learning.

[00:22:45] Ross: The thing is that reset

[00:22:46] Steve: again, it's going back to that reception to make mistakes. You can. That you make a mistake doesn't mean that you are a monster. That you get something wrong, doesn't mean that you've done it willfully and okay, it's happened. Do you turn away from that and try to bury it or try to laugh it off or ignore it, or do you turn towards it and go, yeah, okay, that happened.

[00:23:14] Ross: What do I do about. I, I love the way you've just described that. Cause I think that's, that's the, that's almost like the, the roadmap through it is to be aware. Notice when you haven't represented yourself and respected the other person and learn from that. Be prepared to, to turn towards that and, and learn from them.

[00:23:44] Ross: and hopefully start to develop new ways on what you'll do next time in a similar situation.

[00:23:51] Steve: Well, that feels like a really lovely place to bring that part of a conversation [00:24:00] to cl to a close, having that little roadmap. Hmm. Yeah. I suppose before we move on, is there anything, anything particular that's popped up or anything that you want to make sure.

[00:24:12] Steve: Yeah, I'd, I'd like to talk about that or I'd like to. No,

[00:24:18] Ross: I don't think so. I think it's been a lovely conversation so far. Really. It's gone in in some ways I wasn't expecting and other ways I was, and it's been great. Thank you for guiding us.

[00:24:32] Steve: So we'll just move on to the next part and we'll bring this part of the conversation to a close and hopefully some love.

[00:24:42] Steve: Joint music will play and we'll be back in a second.

[00:24:54] Steve: Welcome back everyone. Now just onto this, this next part of the pod that is a semi-regular feature and I'm just, I'm interested in what type of. What type of things inspired ideas of masculinity, what it means to be a man? And the question that I keep coming back to is, are there any characters from fiction, from tv, from games, from media, anything like that that did that for you, that helped to shape who, who you are or what you might view as.

[00:25:34] Steve: Hmm. So I'm gonna hand that over to Ross to maybe expand on, if that's okay.

[00:25:44] Ross: Can I choose more than one

[00:25:46] Steve: character? People keep asking this. I might have to put rules on this, but No, no, go for it.

[00:25:52] Ross: Because there's, there's two I can cover off quite quickly I think, cause I've, I've mentioned them previously and they are characters [00:26:00] that were immensely camp and hilarious and weren't necessarily great role models.

[00:26:05] Ross: But I still hold them with much fondness and that's the characters of Mr. Humphreys in. Are you being served and played by John Inman and Larry Grayson on the generation game? Mm-hmm. Outrageously camp and silly and funny and not particularly helpful role models, but they did show there was another way to be and they were quite exuberant and joyful and funny, so that in that aspect they were role models for a way of being and, and a different form of masculinity.

[00:26:45] Ross: But the main one I choose is tin. That's from, from my very young days. I used to love watching the Tin Tin animated cartoon when I was a kid. It was on children's tv and I really liked Tin Tin for so many reasons, cuz he had kind of weird clothes. It's quite stylish fella, I thought. Yeah. And he had those sort of three quarter length trousers and he had a dog and.

[00:27:19] Ross: I loved it for the art, but I loved him for his, like clock us his courage and his curiosity and his sense of justice and writing wrongs. So that was kind of an inspiration for me about how a well a boy, how a, a man or a vision of masculinity, and it was great art. as well. Such beautiful art. And I re, I still remember it coming on the tally and they used to go s Adventures of Tin Tin, except I [00:28:00] thought when I was watching it was Thursdays Adventures of Tin Tin.

[00:28:05] Ross: And I was thinking, mom, why does it say Thursday when it's Tuesday today? And Tin Ten's still on? I'm not sure if it was ever explained properly to me, but I'd like to choose 10. 10 and like it. I'm a chicky sword. Go for it. I would like to add another, another nomination. I would like to add any and every member of the L G B T community who is a role model for others in any way whatsoever.

[00:28:38] Ross: Whether they're role modeling for. Thousands or millions in sports, in art, in politics, in public life, or whether they're role modeling for themselves or one other person. I'd like to say thank you for being a role model for us all and for helping us all learn and grow.

[00:29:02] Steve: I don't think there's anything cheeky about that at all, Ross. I think that's a, a lovely senti. And it's, I think this is, when I, when I'm thinking about this, I'm obviously thinking about media as in, you know, in my head it's going into stories when actually, yes, role models are real life, what we see on the screen, what we hear on the radio, things like that.

[00:29:26] Steve: They're, yes, they might be real, but they still feel, they can feel fictional in some way because we don't have that. Connection. Do we mm-hmm. . So to see that, and I, I like the, I like the variety in those that there are some, the there are from different stages of your life.

[00:29:52] Ross: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:53] Steve: That was right. You're not just having, right.

[00:29:56] Steve: This is my, from teenage upwards, there's the [00:30:00] actually this looking. at other men and seeing the influence that they can have is not just something that happens later on is it is something that's happening right from scratch. Yeah. And to notice that the power of that, there's also a reverse in that, in that all of us as men have that potential influence and that potential power, whether we know it or not.

[00:30:30] Steve: And that's a. Well, it's a huge thing to sort of get your head around.

[00:30:36] Ross: Yeah. I would say that all of your listeners are role models. Everyone's looking to everyone else for behavioral cues on how to respond in different life situations. So maybe we can just focus on being the best version of ourselves that we possibly can be and know that we'll make mistakes and know that that's okay.

[00:30:59] Ross: If the intention behind it is, is a positive one and a loving one, there's opportunities for us all to be role models.

[00:31:11] Steve: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Ross. I said I've, I've really loved this, this conversation in these chats, and I want to say a huge thank you, uh, for appearing for appearing on the show at this.

[00:31:28] Steve: I'm going to make a repeat plea if people haven't heard of or haven't checked out people soup, please do. It's, uh, a fabulous, and I'm trying to think of the word such a, a repository of, of goodness. So many episodes that you will find something that is of interest to you. Even if you're not sure where to start, maybe go [00:32:00] through all of them.

[00:32:00] Steve: There is something that will hook you, I promise. Or you can start right at the beginning and go all the way through. Whatever works, don't I? Me, it's a back catalog. They'll be f people will be fine.

[00:32:12] Ross: Oh, Steve, that, that's super kind of you. It's been. It's been a joy to just catch up and chat with you, and it's been an honor to be on, on your podcast.

[00:32:22] Ross: I'm really grateful to you for role modeling this for Men's Mental Health. I think it's such an important topic and I think the way you bring it to life is, is really accessible and natural. So thank you for all that you.

[00:32:42] Steve: Thank you very much and on on that note as I'm trying to wipe the smile off my face.

[00:32:48] Steve: On that note, we'll wrap up for today. We'll be back soon with another episode. And in the meantime please take care and we'll see you soon. Bye. Bye.