Host: Jenni Catron has a knack and a love and a passion for
putting feet to vision, as she says, and making vision reality.
She has had this book, and I've known about it for several
months, called Clout, discover and unleash your God given
influence. So without further ado, please help me welcome the
one and only miss Jenni Catron, Jenni, thanks so much for being
with us.
Jenni Catron: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to
share a little bit more about the book. Thank you so much.
This is awesome.
Host: You know, why did you write this book? Like, where did
the idea come from? How did you get started?
Jenni Catron: Yeah, yeah. You know, I've always been a
leadership junkie. Like, I don't know that even as a kid, I knew
how to what the word was, but I knew what leadership looked
like, and it was something that I was really drawn to. So, you
know, so I think just my whole life, I've kind of aspired to
understanding leadership and what helps leaders tick, and,
you know, how we influence others, and what that looks
like. And so this book, clout really is, is a lot of my heart
kind of in written form of like the things that I wished I had
known as a leader earlier on that so maybe that I wouldn't
have misstepped, you know, in some certain ways along the way
and clout, discover and unleash your God. Given influence is
just that idea that leadership begins with influence. You know,
I think John Maxwell is quoted with saying, leadership is
influence, nothing more, nothing less. And I'll often push back
on that a little bit to go. I think leadership starts with
influence, but how we steward that influence impacts what how
we're able to really live out our leadership. So, you know? So
this was, to me, was, well, what is the core of influence look
like? So if leadership starts with influence, what does it
mean to really develop that influence, develop that clout,
if you will, that gives us the platform to lead from. And so
this was kind of a journey for me of saying, You know what, I
see a lot of things in my life that are holding me back or
hindering me, tripping me up from really being the leader I
should be. And you know, we talk about those in the book, I call
them the clout killers, but then also going, okay, so what do we
do with that? Like, how do we really cultivate our influence?
How do we cultivate our clout in such a way that we can allow
that sphere of influence that we've been given to impact
others, to really allow that to thrive and for that to shine? So
that's the heart and the spirit behind the book.
Host: And the seven clout killers, as you call them, are
really transformational, and they're very real, and they're
things that leaders don't even like to admit, that they
struggle with.
Jenni Catron: Yeah, yeah, I think you don't, and that's the
truth. And it's really the thing that stuck out with all of the
clout killers, for me, is, you know, what are the things that I
don't want to admit are there? But we all know that when we
just keep stuffing something we we really aren't dealing with
it. It's, it's, it's affecting us, whether we're recognizing it
or not. And so what I found is I was kind of doing my research
for the book, and, you know, my personal stories, stories from
my leadership, other leaders that I kind of studied, I
discovered that this fear issue was really almost kind of the
root. I call it the front runner of all the clout killers. It's
like fear triggers all these other things. So I fear that I'm
not enough. So I deal with jealousy if you're not having
enough. So I'm deal with scarcity. I fear that I'm not
good enough. So I live with insecurity. Like you see how
just these fear, this fear of different things, impacts our
influence and our our leadership in different ways. So it's
really the when I boiled down like anything, like I'm maybe
not engaging, there's usually some fear behind it, like, I
fear chaos, so I grapple for control. And I think a lot of us
as leaders, you know, we like to kind of get a good handle on our
situations, and like to be able to control our world. And
really, that's the fear of chaos, you know. So just so many
of these different issues, there's just kind of an
underlying fear all the time of, Am I enough, you know, and and I
think when we kind of just are willing to acknowledge that,
then we position ourselves to be able to grow from it and learn
from it. You know, fear kind of impacts you in different ways.
Sometimes it causes us to hide, sometimes it causes us to
isolate ourselves and kind of close ourselves off, and then
sometimes it just paralyzes us, which, I think for a lot of us
as leaders, it just paralyzes us, you know, I think you've got
to exchange that fear for what's true, you know? And I think
there's a, there's an old quote, I don't know that I actually
used it in the book, but you know, what's the, what's the
stat of how, how many of the fears we we have actually don't
happen, right? Like you, we've all heard of that. Of you know,
how many fears that we have actually don't happen. And the
thing that struck up, stuck out to me when I was studying this
and actually looking at some scripture for just biblical
foundation for this, was that, you know, I think a lot of times
we want to, we want to believe that we just are going to
overcome fear and. We're never going to face fear. And over and
over in Scripture, like when the biblical characters would face
fear, God would he would say, Do not fear. But he didn't say, Do
not fear because being fearful is stupid. He said, Do not fear
because he had a response for this. He had a way he was going
to handle this, that he was there. He was the great reward
I'm with you. Like over and over, when a leader was dealing
with fear, God was responding with how he was there to help
lead them through that. And so I think you know, when we're
confronting fear, so if you're a person to say, you know, there's
a lot of biblical truth that we can kind of hold on to, to
suggest that God is with us through this. And you know, even
if you're not a person of faith, there's still truth behind
things that sometimes we allow those fears to convince us of.
You know, we kind of just spin off into all the worst case
scenarios. And when you stop and you go, Okay, what's the worst
thing that's going to happen? What's the real truth of if the
worst thing happened? What's What does that mean? So it's
kind of that idea of exchanging that fear for just what's true,
just getting rational for a minute. Because what does fear
do? It makes us irrational. You know, most of the time.
Host: So now the next one is a comparison. And this one, I
think, is so acute. Why is it a clout killer?
Jenni Catron: Yeah, you know. And I think comparison, it's
almost natural, you know, like we are kind of wired to just
compare everything from the time we're born like our we, you
know, we are. We get the Growth Percentile chart, things you
know that tell us how we're stacking up to the rest of, you
know, kids in our age group. And I think our culture just
conditions us to compare ourselves to everyone else. But
the danger in that is that, and this is kind of the spirit of
this whole book. The danger in that is that I believe that God
has given us, like, this unique sphere of influence, this unique
set of gifts, talents, experiences and opportunities
that no one else has your specific like, mix of those
things, right? And so when we compare, you know, I'm not ever
going to be you. I'm not ever going to be able to lead the way
you lead to, you know, encourage people the way you encourage
people to inspire people like I'm not wired exactly like you.
We might have some things that overlap. We have a lot of things
that we enjoy, but if I try to be you, that I'm going to
sabotage the thing that makes me me. And so, you know, I think
that comparison thing, I think we're just so naturally wired by
society to give into it, that we don't even realize that we're
doing it. And what, what I feel like we do on that is we miss
really cultivating and developing the the influence we
have. You know, in trying to mimic somebody else, we actually
sabotage our own growth.
Host: What's the difference between comparison and jealousy?
Because those two kind of seem to maybe dovetail or be related.
Jenni Catron: Yeah they do kind of dovetail. And I think, you
know, comparison is I can look at what somebody else is doing,
and I can, like, try to be that jealousy, like it, like it gets
to that icky place where I, you know, now I'm like, I'm really,
like, striving and working towards, you know, being jealous
or envious of what somebody else is doing. So it really kind of
makes it about trying to almost sabotage the other person. Like
jealousy kind of takes that nasty twist of, you know, I say
it's kind of like a cancer that eats, eats away at everything
that's good in our relationship. So jealousy takes that to Okay,
now you're my enemy, because I'm jealous of what you've
accomplished. Now it's not that I've just compared myself and
I've tried to mimic you now. It's that, oh, you're now my
enemy, because I want to be like you, and I see where our gaps
are different, and so I'm going to start being jealous of that,
and it's going to start eroding the relationship component. You
start that comparison, and then it turns into and I, at one
point, I talk about jealousy is kind of the irrational fear of
losing something or someone valuable to you, you know. So
it's that all of a sudden it becomes a competition, you know,
and it becomes and that's where fear kind of mixes into the
whole equation. And, yeah, jealousy just goes to kind of
that ugly place of, now you're my enemy rather than somebody
I'm celebrating because of you stewarding your God given
influence.
Host: So scarcity is the fourth one?
Jenni Catron: Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, this was one of
the ones that kind of snuck up on me and surprised me as a
leader. And I think, you know, I grew up kind of in a, you know,
just, uh, you know, lower middle class family. So we had, you
know, we struggled to make ends meet some days, you know, sure.
And but in that there were some good things that I learned in
just, you know, being frugal and making sure I manage my money
well. And, you know, so there were certainly some really good
principles that came from that. But what it did is it taught me
to kind of hoard a little bit more than normal, and not just
resources. It kind of, you know, it just was this overarching
tendency to just be scarce with everything, because there's kind
of this underlying fear that there's not enough, you know. So
when you grow up, and so a lot of us, I think, come by that
scarcity mentality honestly, you know, maybe so I didn't I grew
up in a home that didn't have just a lot of resources. So I
can be scarce with resources, but maybe somebody grew up in a
home where there wasn't a lot of love given. Our show. And so
you, you, you, you don't even realize it, because it's just
the culture you came from. But you can hoard, you know, just a
affirmation and really loving and serving others well. And so
I think, you know, we have to kind of look at that and go, is
there a place in my leadership where I have a tendency to
hoard? So another one where I think this shows up a lot is,
you know, if you're a leader in your position for influence, you
know, are you taking all of those opportunities for the
spotlight, or, you know, to bring the idea to the table and
or are you, you know, really empowering other staff to be the
ones to share that or to bring that up, or to to get the
spotlight, or, you know, so I think that's where you see it
happen a lot in leadership, is that we're not quick to give the
praise or the the attention to other leaders around us.
Host: And the next one is insecurity. And these are
definitely connected.
Jenni Catron: Yeah, you know. And this is the one that none of
us want to admit, right? It's there, and it's, you know, that
it, and I describe it as a perpetual lack of confidence,
you know. And I think we can all relate to that. But the problem
is, when we kind of live in that perpetual lack of confidence, it
is impacting everyone else around us. And so, you know, I
think you've got to be willing to identify that and realize
where insecurity is kind of holding you back from living
out, you know, living out your influence in a healthy in a
healthy way. It's a biggie, and it can show up a lot of
different ways, you know. And I think we cover it up in a lot of
ways.
Host: So pride, pride is the sixth. So we've got fear,
comparison, jealousy, scarcity, insecurity. And I know that
pride is often a sign of people who are covering up something
else.
Jenni Catron: Yep. In the book talking about pride, you know,
the like the Webster's definition is in inordinate self
esteem, or excessive confidence in oneself. And when I started
to unpack this and look at other leaders and myself, and you
know, see where pride shows up, it's really the illusion of
excessive self esteem, you know. So that goes back to that
insecurity piece of that. You know, as leaders, rarely are we
just really that prideful. We're actually lacking some self
esteem, and so we're trying to project that we have something
that we don't actually have. So it's kind of like pride and
insecurity end up this big ball of mess where prides trying to
cover up, it just all becomes one big jumbled mess that we're
trying to untangle.
Host: That's huge. Well, the last one is control.
Jenni Catron: That's a funny one, because as leaders, we're,
we're so driven, right? And, you know, we have such a drive that
kind of pushes us and we and we step into, you know, moments
where leadership is necessary. So we are kind of known for
being the ones to take control when control is me, you know,
when that's necessary. But there's kind of a dark side to
it, where, when it's, you know, there's a lot of conversations
about the importance of servant leadership, and that as leaders,
we have to recognize that it's our job to help others shine.
And so when you see control creeping in, it's when you're
really longing for power, rather than like longing for influence.
And I think that's a real distinction that's important in
that, you know, this longing for power is an indicator that we're
not content with the influence we're given. So if we're trying
to, you know, manufacture control of a situation I often
talk about like the idea of, you know, we've been given this
influence, our leadership, our clout, and it's kind of placed
in our hands as this thing we're responsible to, kind of care,
take, to steward. But I'm one of those people who loves control.
So what do I do? I kind of curl my fingers around it, and I kind
of put a death grip on it and try to manipulate and control
everything, you know, and what happens? You're squeezing the
life out of it rather than letting it grow and develop. And
so I think we have to look for that tension in ourself as
leaders. Is, when am I, you know, being responsible for the
influence I have and I'm gently, kind of blood, guiding it and
directing it, or when am I trying to, like, manipulate it
and control it? And I mean, you're going to be the best Gage
for yourself on when you're doing those things and when it's
it's moving to control rather than influence, if that makes
sense. But there's a real dance there, because as leaders, we do
need to step up and actually lead. But that can cross the
line into, you know, controlling, obsessive control
if we're not careful.
Host: Wow. Well, Jenni Catron, folks, you can check her out.
Jennicatron.com, Jenni, thank you for being with us. Thank you
for your wisdom. Thank you for what you do as a leader. And we
wish you all the best.
Jenni Catron: Thank you so much. It was wonderful to talk this
through with you, and I appreciate the conversation.
Thank you.