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[bill_powers]: You're listening to law. talk with Bill Powers, your resource for answers to

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[bill_powers]: your most pressing questions. Attorney Bill Power sits down with some of Day's

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[bill_powers]: leading legal minds to discuss everything from legal issues and legislation to

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[bill_powers]: practice tips in policy. Now here's your host, Bill Powers, former presidents

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[bill_powers]: of the North Carolina Advocates for Justice, recipients of the North Carolina

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[bill_powers]: State Bar, John B Mcmillan distinguished service award and a founding member of

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[bill_powers]: the Center for Legal Education and advocacy,

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[bill_powers]: Hello and thank you for joining us for another episode of Wal Talkalk. I am

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[bill_powers]: joined to day by attorney,

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[bill_powers]: Um. Caroline Wingot Strause, Good morning afternoon. What is afternoon now?

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[bill_powers]: Good afternoon. It's one of the Um. in the last couple weeks of twenty twenty

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[bill_powers]: one, and we're doing a series of podcasts. Um, Kind of given the status of

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[bill_powers]: different things, and I thought a real interesting one would be to day what

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[bill_powers]: we've entitled The top five tips for custody. These are intended to be somewhat

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[bill_powers]: big picture in nature. Uh, there are the things that we tell clients when we

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[bill_powers]: meet with you initially. It may be things that we tell you progressively as we

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[bill_powers]: go through of representation,

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[bill_powers]: and sometimes it's necessary to remind people kindly. Uh, these are good

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[bill_powers]: general ideas. so Um, here's some. like I said, some general information

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[bill_powers]: regarding Um

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[bill_powers]: over aarchinged principles, and Um. keron. You prepared to assume any little Um

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[bill_powers]: acronyms so well as you jump in and tell me what you got a love. Yeah, I think

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[bill_powers]: Um. Custody comes to the forefront of family law attorney's mind during the

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[bill_powers]: holiday season, because a lot of custody exchanges occur during the holiday

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[bill_powers]: season and it's different from the typical schedule, so I thought it would be

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[bill_powers]: good around this time of year. Um. to talk about the things that uh, I find

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[bill_powers]: important, Uh, and emphasizeed to my clients going through a child cussy

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[bill_powers]: matter, And these, these tips aren't necessarily how to win your trial or

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[bill_powers]: um, how to outsmart the other side. These tips are Um

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[bill_powers]: geared towards making it the best outcome for your family and for your

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[bill_powers]: children, and to establish an effective co parenting relationship Going

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[bill_powers]: forward. So before I delve into my tips,

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[bill_powers]: I wanted to kind of give you an overarching principle that all these tips are

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[bill_powers]: guided by, and in fact that the courts are guided by, and that's the best

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[bill_powers]: interest of the child.

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[bill_powers]: What the best interest of the child means is the court is always going to find

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[bill_powers]: or give a custody arrangement that is in the best interests of the child? Um,

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[bill_powers]: so we're thinking about the child's well being. We're not thinking about

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[bill_powers]: getting back at the other parent for thinking about the ▁ultimate outcome that

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[bill_powers]: creates a well rounded little human being

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[bill_powers]: Right, And actually, I'm glad you brought that up because

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[bill_powers]: have a nice time for the holidays for Christmas. Uh, in court system, in the

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[bill_powers]: case law we see from court appeals, so occa, these get appealed up when you'll

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[bill_powers]: hear in the court. It's called the Polar Star, The Uh Nors star, if you will.

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[bill_powers]: So If you want to think of the Christmas analogy and whole holy night in that

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[bill_powers]: the star,

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[bill_powers]: the best interest of the children is that guiding White to the courts, to the

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[bill_powers]: attorneys into the parents. that is that we need to focus on the best and so to

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[bill_powers]: children.

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[bill_powers]: And uh, how we do that or how we get there? Um, I think are some of your

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[bill_powers]: particular points, So right

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[bill_powers]: and I sometimes have clients to talk about my rights and what I want. And while

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[bill_powers]: those are important, they're not the only

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[bill_powers]: sus. your child's right, Right. And that's what the court's going to look for

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[bill_powers]: if you do end up in court, But that leads us to our first tip. Um, which is I

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[bill_powers]: always try to keep these matters out of court. Um, if you go to court.

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[bill_powers]: Obviously, it's an adversarial process,

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[bill_powers]: so I tell all my clients that the gloves are going to come off the other side

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[bill_powers]: is going to bring all of your skeletons out of the closet. And in my opinion,

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[bill_powers]: that does not provide

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[bill_powers]: a good foundation for co parenting and creating a nourishing environment for

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[bill_powers]: the child going forward.

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[bill_powers]: Um, That doesn't mean that you won't have a court order at the end of this

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[bill_powers]: process. it just means that

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[bill_powers]: we aren't going to go to trial. We're going to try to work it out outside of

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[bill_powers]: the courtroom, Um. And there are ways to go about that. There's the

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[bill_powers]: collaborative law process,

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[bill_powers]: Um,

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[bill_powers]: which both Bill and I are, you and I are Um trained in. There's also what's

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[bill_powers]: called mediation. Um. In in mediation, you meet with a neutral mediator and

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[bill_powers]: each party has their attorney there. They have attorneys, and you try to come

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[bill_powers]: up with a plan with all minds involved. Um. that will best help the child,

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[bill_powers]: Um, and in fact, if you do file a lawsuit, you have to go to mediation anyways.

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[bill_powers]: Um, so the courts even prefer that these things get settled before they hear

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[bill_powers]: them.

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[bill_powers]: A. A. a courtroom divorce lawyer doesn't want to go to court.

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[bill_powers]: Oh, crazy, or does that come from? Maybe, um, have you been there a little bit,

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[bill_powers]: Ande

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[bill_powers]: some things

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[bill_powers]: as my, as my dad would say. uh, I've I've the s. my first rodeo. I've been

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[bill_powers]: there before. Yes, we are. Uh, well, I think I think our reputations for being

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[bill_powers]: courtroom lawyers and we, we litigate things regularly, but it is a good idea.

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[bill_powers]: Based on that experience we think to try to keep it out of court. And and you

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[bill_powers]: brought something up. Two things are real important. The clabita process, I

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[bill_powers]: think is more than any other area of law that I've done. Uh, This area of all

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[bill_powers]: particular children is where I think it's really best suited. Collaborable

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[bill_powers]: means, Um, as I've heard a judges say in court before we have judge in

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[bill_powers]: Charlotte, who regular says that, See, she'll say, come on, yal. maybe F. let's

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[bill_powers]: get. let's get together here. Come on, y, let's let's work through this and the

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[bill_powers]: holidays can be tough because you know, Miss visits or late,

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[bill_powers]: and uh or late, pick up late, drop off and uh, Unfortunately, we occasionally

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[bill_powers]: see emergency orders being filed on the eve of things Christmas Eve, New Year's

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[bill_powers]: Eve, Christmas Eve, Eve, and uh, they're expensive to litigate their heart. Um,

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[bill_powers]: I guess, uh, wrenching, if you will, not just for you, but for the children,

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[bill_powers]: potentially, and I, I agree with you. I don't think the courts particularly

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[bill_powers]: like the

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[bill_powers]: back and forth, the the bantering, the sword play. If you will. I think the

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[bill_powers]: courts very much prefer.

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[bill_powers]: You know the com commanial approach. Now, Um,

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[bill_powers]: if if there is a preference, I mean years ago, people just assumed Mom always

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[bill_powers]: got the children and Dad got every other weekend and two weeks during the

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[bill_powers]: summer. Is that the case anymore, Caroline, or has that? is there a preference

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[bill_powers]: now, or a general kind of? I guess, theology and court with child cussy issues.

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[bill_powers]: Well, let you just described is the ten day years's presumption and that no

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[bill_powers]: longer applies. Um. Legally speaking, Um,

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[bill_powers]: based on our experience in what I'm seeing today. in court, I,

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[bill_powers]: most judges prefer if it's possible,

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[bill_powers]: Um, for the child to spend as much time as possible with both parents. I think

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[bill_powers]: the studies, psychologists, Um, and everybody who's involved in

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[bill_powers]: you know a child's life, all agree that participation by both parents, Um, is

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[bill_powers]: the most beneficial for the child going forward. Now when I talk about shared

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[bill_powers]: custody, there are different iterations of shared custody, Um,

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[bill_powers]: and there's different iterations of custody. The first, there's physical

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[bill_powers]: custody, which is when

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[bill_powers]: Uh, who's who stays with mom and who stays with Dad, and when Leo cuss', who is

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[bill_powers]: who makes decisions on behalf of the minor child,

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[bill_powers]: Um, and then

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[bill_powers]: shared cuss.

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[bill_powers]: Well, we have. Uh, let me jump in here 'cause others important point out right

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[bill_powers]: now. 'cause you what we're talking about, A different types of custody and we

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[bill_powers]: tend two, and we don't want to be inconsiderable people here. if we refer to

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[bill_powers]: mom or dad, and the truth in the matter is it could be Uh, a parents of mom and

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[bill_powers]: mom or dad and dad, Um, or whatever, as you. I like that word generation.

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[bill_powers]: There's a as many different types of relationships we have today in our society

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[bill_powers]: and culture there are. uh. There's an understanding the law that would be, and

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[bill_powers]: I want to back you up a little bit because you, youve said some things here

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[bill_powers]: that I understand what you're talking about. marriage. Maybe it not be, and

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[bill_powers]: that would be you, call it tender years, and Um, the tender years. Um

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[bill_powers]: generally have to do with when there's are particular. I guess for, for like a

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[bill_powers]: term of susceptibility of the child and a need to be with one parent another,

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[bill_powers]: so I, I use a real basic one. Let's say Um, mom is maybe breastfeeding child or

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[bill_powers]: something like that, or maybe the child in a neikee or a Pq unit, And there's

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[bill_powers]: some. uh. There was a traditional idea that there was a a value for having more

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[bill_powers]: important period of time, a bonding periodm. Tell tell you know, people are

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[bill_powers]: listening. What you mean by it when you said to Tender years, or what was the

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[bill_powers]: kind of the old school or maybe common law philosophy On this well, I mean, I

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[bill_powers]: think the old school philosophy that let that

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[bill_powers]: during those younger years when the child is breastfeeding or

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[bill_powers]: needing a lot of motherly attention, Um, that custody would go to mom.

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[bill_powers]: Um.

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[bill_powers]: That has since changed, Um, and

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[bill_powers]: Um. Courts now recognize the fact that dads or other moms are equally as

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[bill_powers]: capable to take care of the child during that period time period, right in

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[bill_powers]: there, ways. I don't want to focus too much on breastfeeding, but there are

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[bill_powers]: other ways to make sure the child's properly nourished, and that that's an

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[bill_powers]: another big picture. Rightem. when we talk about best interests, we talk about

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[bill_powers]: the mental well being of the child, the physical well being a child or

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[bill_powers]: children, So it could be arely getting food. Is the food appropriate? Are they

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[bill_powers]: seeing physicians or doctors, as the case may be? Do they have a roof over

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[bill_powers]: their head? Are they going to school and get an appropriate level of education?

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[bill_powers]: Do they have uh, valuable friend groups and fa familial groups and other

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[bill_powers]: parents involved in their life? It's meant to be holistic. It's meant to be um

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[bill_powers]: approached in a way of looking at all the different assets that are available

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[bill_powers]: to the child and Theys going be financial. So could be a relationships. So you

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[bill_powers]: mention are different types of custody. There could be legal custody. Uh, there

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[bill_powers]: could be shared physical custody. There could be decision making authority for

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[bill_powers]: certain types of issue Like well, a parent a, Uh decides issues regarding

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[bill_powers]: sporting events, Parent B, the sideides, issues of Uh schooling, Uh, parent A

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[bill_powers]: and b, Um share of joint responsibility for Um, religious upbringing and things

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[bill_powers]: like that again, This is. it could be really, really, really complicated. So,

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[bill_powers]: um, I think what you were saying, and and um, I'm sored to interruption this.

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[bill_powers]: But I think you said there's kind of a a preference for shared custody. A sense

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[bill_powers]: of that both parents A and B, whomever A and B may represent should be actively

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[bill_powers]: engaged in the child Because that isn't the best interest in a child from a

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[bill_powers]: developmental standpoint. Do I get it right correct? That's not necessarily

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[bill_powers]: saying fifty fifty custody. though I, I see a preference towards that where the

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[bill_powers]: parents

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[bill_powers]: are living in close range with one another? Um, and can get along with one

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[bill_powers]: another. Um. and there's no danger to the child at either house right right,

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[bill_powers]: but um,

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[bill_powers]: yes, the overarching principle I think these days is that the child benefits

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[bill_powers]: the most from spending substantial amounts of time with both parents. Let me

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[bill_powers]: let me have get you have a couple of ex. Possible exceptions to the role like

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[bill_powers]: what if

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[bill_powers]: the parent A is a substance abuse person, meaning they're either drinking too

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[bill_powers]: much or using an excessive amount of legal or illegal, Uh drugs. What if it's a

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[bill_powers]: a physically abusive environment? What if the children are not being properly

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[bill_powers]: supervised for long periods of time? One paent' working and they're leaving a

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[bill_powers]: small child at home? Um,

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[bill_powers]: those are things you think about as well. Oh, most definitely, Um, and that's

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[bill_powers]: often times when we end up outside A. of. well, excuse me, Um. that's when we

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[bill_powers]: end up in court, Um, because we need the judge to step in and protect that

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[bill_powers]: child.

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[bill_powers]: Um,

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[bill_powers]: and

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[bill_powers]: it just recently, I've had two cases where alcohol abese is an issue. Um, and

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[bill_powers]: we've crafted agreements that kind of give

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[bill_powers]: the person with the issue

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[bill_powers]: Um steps to prove him or herself.

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[bill_powers]: Um, in order to gradually gain custody back and prove their sopriety. Said,

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[bill_powers]: there are ways to protect the child within that the custody agreement right. I

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[bill_powers]: think it's fair to say that courts do not want children in dangerous

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[bill_powers]: environments. They don't want them subjected to illegal abusive and or

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[bill_powers]: unhealthy behaviors. Um, I'll tell you one thing we've seen, Uh, not a lot of.

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[bill_powers]: but it's I. I thought we'd see more. but occasionally, uh, you know who gets

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[bill_powers]: the code shot. who doesn't want to do to Kovin Shaw, And who you know? I. I

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[bill_powers]: actually had one last year where one parent was less concerned about that and

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[bill_powers]: travelling and seeing lots of family And not really. The allegation was not

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[bill_powers]: really taking many steps as precaution, social disty and mass. Where be one,

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[bill_powers]: and I'm not trying to weigh into the the, the strength or or, or the value of

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[bill_powers]: those things. But um,

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[bill_powers]: you know, and another parent. In that instance you know, was much more

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[bill_powers]: restrictive and and it applied to sporting events in schooling and and travel

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[bill_powers]: on airplanes, and being in large groups of people. And these are type of things

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[bill_powers]: we deal with. In fact, that when we had last year was about this time we did a.

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[bill_powers]: There was a bunch of, had a bunch of em mercency hearings. And and it really,

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[bill_powers]: um,

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[bill_powers]: uh, it can be problematic. So you know number one, Um, try to stay out of court

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[bill_powers]: if you can

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[bill_powers]: on number two. Uh, know or understand that there is a preference, or at least

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[bill_powers]: an assumption that there would be some level shared custody When whatever that

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[bill_powers]: may mean, you know all kinds of little asterk lawyers call '. caveats. I mean a

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[bill_powers]: million different exceptions to use. And what's number three? caring? number

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[bill_powers]: three, Um, If keep the kids out of it

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[bill_powers]: that means

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[bill_powers]: I always advise my clients if the child is in your care. don't ask about what's

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[bill_powers]: going on at Mam or dad's house.

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[bill_powers]: If the child is in your care.

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[bill_powers]: don't

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[bill_powers]: ask child to give a message to my mom or dad.

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[bill_powers]: Um, don't tell kids about what's going on in court. frankly, um, don't show

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[bill_powers]: kids the allegations into the complaint.

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[bill_powers]: I think as much as you can keep them insulated from this process

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[bill_powers]: because that will ▁ultimately prove

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[bill_powers]: better for their well being in the long long term,

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[bill_powers]: and it may feel better to run someone down in a short term

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[bill_powers]: and the long term. Not only is it not healthy to the child, but you may be

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[bill_powers]: called on the carpet of for disparaging Uh, the other parent.

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[bill_powers]: the courts uh regularly will would prevent abrders or protective orders saying

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[bill_powers]: you're not going to do this or you don't want to see allegations that you're

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[bill_powers]: trying to turn one child away from a parent, and Um, so I, I use the commanal

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[bill_powers]: amaalgy, um, from beginn. I' use another one that I've heard on more than one

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[bill_powers]: occasion. Is if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all,

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[bill_powers]: meaning you may have uh conversations with your co parent. Whats an ex husband

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[bill_powers]: or ex wife or an ex, uh, partner, Uh, under law or not or law, you that you

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[bill_powers]: don't have to be married to have these um, legally married to have these issues

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[bill_powers]: come up with children. Uh, but it's really a a bad idea both for the child and

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[bill_powers]: your own case to be running down this person. It also an ▁urban. Study after

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[bill_powers]: study on this in a new this, where parent A will say,

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[bill_powers]: tell your mamma I, I pick up Christmas this year and I'm not going be sending

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[bill_powers]: her to Alamoi, kind of deal, or Oh, And you do not want to use the child in a

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[bill_powers]: child's intermew, or you also don't want to be using a child as a tool or a

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[bill_powers]: weapon against the other, And this is. It is so frustrating legal counsel to

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[bill_powers]: deal with this because you can see your client just walking towards the abyss

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[bill_powers]: and like, Don't do that. don't do that. Don't do that. You're going to harm

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[bill_powers]: yourself and go harm your job. So right, number three is

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[bill_powers]: keep kids out of it. Okay so number four is Um. this is not self serving. Um,

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[bill_powers]: uh, we say engage professionals. If needed, professionals may mean legal

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[bill_powers]: professionals, roies. it may mean child custody counsellors or experts,

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[bill_powers]: psychologist, psychiatrists, um physicians, I mean

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[bill_powers]: if if if there are things that are needed for the best interests in the child,

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[bill_powers]: you may have to employ different levels of professional. So what do you mean by

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[bill_powers]: engaging professionals? Right? And I was kind of thinking this of this and that

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[bill_powers]: twofold um

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[bill_powers]: idea, Um, number one professionals for the children, number two professionals

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[bill_powers]: for the parents right. So let's say your child is showing some

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[bill_powers]: behaviors that lead you to believe that here or she is having issues with this

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[bill_powers]: separation or with this two parent household or two household parenting

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[bill_powers]: arrangement. Then I think it's a good idea to get the child psychologist on

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[bill_powers]: board to give your child a separate outlet. Um, to talk about his or her

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[bill_powers]: feelings, Um, and process what is going on in his or her life,

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[bill_powers]: Um, on the parent side of that, I'm talking about.

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[bill_powers]: Um.

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[bill_powers]: Courts can appoint people like a parenting coordinator. Right, if you and your

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[bill_powers]: co parent cannot get along, this person can step in between and help Yeal and

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[bill_powers]: the co parent make decisions Um, on behalf of your minor child and try to come

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[bill_powers]: to an agreement

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[bill_powers]: And it's interesting you say, because I actually one of my favorite things I

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[bill_powers]: think I've ever done professionally is serving as a best interest, uh, turning

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[bill_powers]: toth rate, which is the kind of the pre versus post ajudication or judgment

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[bill_powers]: type of parent and coordinator, role pairing coordinators for you, all in a

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[bill_powers]: way, work like a an A budds. Person, meaning that they, they serve with a

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[bill_powers]: certain level, discretion by court order, and rather than go into court and

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[bill_powers]: argue about late visitation or support issues, or or, and most of that's

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[bill_powers]: sports, probably not a good idea, but the raising of a child or how the people

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[bill_powers]: are interacting, the parent coordinator can direct or order certain things, Um

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[bill_powers]: to follow through, So there could be family counseling. It could be

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[bill_powers]: individually counselling for the child. there could be group counseling. there

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[bill_powers]: could be an individual counselling for more than the parents. Uh, there are a

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[bill_powers]: lot of different Um ways of going about that. A best interest Um attorney is.

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[bill_powers]: also, it tends to be by statute, actually, by inter. they called high conflict

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[bill_powers]: matters. Since where the parties are not getting along, Uh, there's some level

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[bill_powers]: of imediacy, ordinarily, that can't get to an adjudication. Mean the court has

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[bill_powers]: not had been discovery yet, or there have been inrogatories or depositions, But

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[bill_powers]: there needs to be some level of involvement from a neutral third party. The

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[bill_powers]: best interest Council, who,

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[bill_powers]: Um, you know, coordinates in a way. there is a technical legal difference. Uh,

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[bill_powers]: there are confidentiality issues. It's it's really interesting, but um, that's

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[bill_powers]: what we mean by getting professionals in needed. And if you think hey, listen,

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[bill_powers]: I, I have tried getting along with this person

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[bill_powers]: and we probably need some third party. You know, as an attorney, we advocate

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[bill_powers]: for a particular cliim. Your other spouse or uh partner may have attorney that

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[bill_powers]: advocates for them them, and then there may be a third person That kind of

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[bill_powers]: works as a refere. Mean that's the way to think about parenting. Coordinor or

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[bill_powers]: best interest is a referee. You can call some Fs and throw some flags. Yeah, I

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[bill_powers]: often imagine them in the referee outfit.

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[bill_powers]: You know the hard part, I'll assume. Uh, you don't have instant replayable you,

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[bill_powers]: Ocs.

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[bill_powers]: I seen as well these type

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[bill_powers]: are so number five, Um, and I, she did a bonus here, which Mhm, so close. but

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[bill_powers]: number five is,

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[bill_powers]: no matter how well you and your co parent get along, it's always our suggestion

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[bill_powers]: suggestion to get an order in an agreement in place.

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[bill_powers]: Um.

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[bill_powers]: for example,

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[bill_powers]: Um,

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[bill_powers]: we recently had a case where it was an eight year old child.

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[bill_powers]: Yeah, um, where we' produc

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[bill_powers]: youngel. Yeah, we had a younger child under the age of twelve that the parents

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[bill_powers]: had gone quite a substantial amount of time without an order in place. Um. they

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[bill_powers]: were able to pretty effectively co paarent and pretty effectively come up with

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[bill_powers]: a schedule for the child. However,

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[bill_powers]: something happened and

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[bill_powers]: that co parenting relationship kind of broke down, And what resulted in that

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[bill_powers]: was a lot of money

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[bill_powers]: spent on lawyers, Um, and a lot of stress

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[bill_powers]: for not only the parents but the child who was unable to see one of his parents

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[bill_powers]: for six weeks,

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[bill_powers]: Um.

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[bill_powers]: That could have been prevented if there had already been an order in place,

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[bill_powers]: outlining

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[bill_powers]: where the child was staying, and when the child

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[bill_powers]: you know was going to either parents' house. Um.

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[bill_powers]: Well, and this is I feeling my rule in this used to be the Bu down guy, so I

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[bill_powers]: understand it. Um.

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[bill_powers]: but

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[bill_powers]: um, this is the. everything's good until it isn't rule meaning.

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[bill_powers]: And and there's a reason why we mentioned ages, because as children get older,

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[bill_powers]: the courts give them more. Um, I call it agency, the more of a voice in the

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[bill_powers]: process,

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[bill_powers]: and the courts are more interested in. not that they're not always interested

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[bill_powers]: in what, uh, the best interests in children. But as children get older, they

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[bill_powers]: may have a more a greater ability to express their opinion about. I want to

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[bill_powers]: spend more time with mom or dad's said, you know, and uh, better this or parent

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[bill_powers]: A or be. However, we want to break it down, but Um,

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[bill_powers]: well, we've seen agreements. Um. where parents are never married. They don't

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[bill_powers]: really see each other other than during a drop off and pick up. everything's

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[bill_powers]: fine. Everything's uh, hunky dory children, child is doing well in school

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[bill_powers]: and then something comes up. Um, my child wants to go out for cheerleading. or

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[bill_powers]: you know, beauty pageants and parent Be says I hate those beauty pageants.

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[bill_powers]: They're They're terrible for the child. You are traveling all over the place.

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[bill_powers]: Uh, when they're gone or not getting the kind of schooling and then there's

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[bill_powers]: this dispute or you know there's this really great opportunity to go to school

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[bill_powers]: B,

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[bill_powers]: and

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[bill_powers]: uh, I, while they're doing fine at

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[bill_powers]: Um, you know Meckenberg County B school. I want to send them to another program

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[bill_powers]: and the parent says I don't wa to do that. I like them, being you know, all

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[bill_powers]: their friends are mecab. They' teachers are that group be Um, so

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[bill_powers]: I think, and I agree with you, Carolin, the value of having these agreements

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[bill_powers]: and they can get very complicated in them themselves.

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[bill_powers]: Um, or they could be big picture as well. But to have a a. what? what? What do

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[bill_powers]: you call these By way from a legal standpoint, I mean, what are lawyers refer?

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[bill_powers]: to? These type of agreements involve parents and children'. It a custody order.

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[bill_powers]: I just said children.

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[bill_powers]: Yeah, Um, and sometimes I for parent agreements or or things like that, but

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[bill_powers]: it's not just the sign off between the parties You can do that. But why do you

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[bill_powers]: like an order? I like an order because it has a little bit of extra teeth

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[bill_powers]: right, So if one party's not behaving or acting badly, you can file emotion for

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[bill_powers]: contempt. Basically asking the court

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[bill_powers]: to

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[bill_powers]: admonish or punish the other side for not following the court order, Um, and

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[bill_powers]: going back on what you said,

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[bill_powers]: you know, as far as these issues coming up, if you don't have an order. If you

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[bill_powers]: do have an order, you have a framework in place for making these decisions. Um,

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[bill_powers]: And so I think that's a beneficial part of all of it, and you don't have to

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[bill_powers]: follow the order to the T. A, in all of my orders, I put a term that says the

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[bill_powers]: parties agree that from time to time they may alter this order for the best

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[bill_powers]: interest of the child, And so um,

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[bill_powers]: it's just nice to have that framework in place if there are issues right. So I

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[bill_powers]: think this is a little bit of legal, Los, but'rescribing it as a difference

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[bill_powers]: between just an agreement between the parties and an agreement between the

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[bill_powers]: parties that's signed off by a judge who says if you violate this you, you

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[bill_powers]: could be subject to

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[bill_powers]: civil and or criminal contempt. And we're not going to talk about civil and or

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[bill_powers]: criminal content today. It's a whole. Another podcast. If you look on academic

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[bill_powers]: involvement really long? We actually have uh, an episode on that. I was um,

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[bill_powers]: joined by another excellent uh, Faal, attorney in Charlotte. Um, who, uh, we

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[bill_powers]: went over that in a Pri. new dinner back on, and and update that because

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[bill_powers]: has changed a lot. Um with the case was when a lot of cases have coming. Ye

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[bill_powers]: know more than I can recall in the past, but okay, so let's go into the plus

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[bill_powers]: the bonus round. Um, go ahead on. right. so Um,

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[bill_powers]: my bonus round is to find an attorney who is an experienced parent, and I, I

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[bill_powers]: say that's kind of based on my personal experience practicing as an attorney. I

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[bill_powers]: practiced for five and a half years, basically where I wasn't a parent, and now

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[bill_powers]: I've come back after being a parent for four years, and I feel like I'm more

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[bill_powers]: able to

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[bill_powers]: understand the practicality of these orders. Um, and kind of understand

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[bill_powers]: where the children are at in their life. Um, and I think if you find an

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[bill_powers]: attorney that has experienced these things as a parent, they're better better

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[bill_powers]: able to negotiate an agreement or argue for an outcome that is practical for

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[bill_powers]: you, but most importantly for your child in the future, Yeah, and I think

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[bill_powers]: there's in my mind, Um, and pract law is really. It's complicated and there's

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[bill_powers]: book learning and is practical experience. Uh, this morning I, I answered.

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[bill_powers]: That's a great point anymore. I thought about just this morning I was talking

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[bill_powers]: with a buddy of min, who, attorney Righ, and

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[bill_powers]: uh, I remember. it was been two or three years ago where I had a case and I

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[bill_powers]: remember saying to the other side, All this be tough year. The child was junior

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[bill_powers]: in high school

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[bill_powers]: and junior in high school. I mean, I don't know if you know this, but junior in

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[bill_powers]: high school's a big year and it's a year where

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[bill_powers]: Uh, if you play athletics, there may be some decisions made lifelong dreams

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[bill_powers]: that may or may not come to fruition. Uh, junior year when you take the essay

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[bill_powers]: to your a C, T.

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[bill_powers]: and while it's not always required in all schools now anymore, it's a standard

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[bill_powers]: practice. Take it. I took it once, maybe twice. Now think

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[bill_powers]: I took it when we used to click rocks together and had an advocac out for a

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[bill_powers]: math. But Um,

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[bill_powers]: and and it, I had just been through that at the time within a couple of three

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[bill_powers]: years, and my daughter, Um, I call her Mokey, Sarah. my daughter plays college

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[bill_powers]: athletics. Um, And and I remember the process of the interviewing with the

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[bill_powers]: teams. And do we want to go division one or division two or division three, Or

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[bill_powers]: is that even realistic? That's another thing. And then, Oh, you did well on the

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[bill_powers]: A, C, T, or to s. a T. Which school do you want to apply for and what major and

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[bill_powers]: junior year is a tough year. Not because you. only. you're just taking these

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[bill_powers]: courses they're making to say it right. and sometimes

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[bill_powers]: Um expectations have to be modulated. I have a friend who. That's what he does.

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[bill_powers]: He. He is a guidance counselor. Privately, That helps people. Um, Uh, explain

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[bill_powers]: the college application process, which it has become an incredibly complex

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[bill_powers]: labyrinth of different procedures and protocols, and by away, If you want to

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[bill_powers]: add in the Uh n C, double A or collegiate level sports, it gets even more

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[bill_powers]: complicated. I can imagine. because

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[bill_powers]: Um, you know, Does g P. A matter? Does it not matter? Um? Where? what? what

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[bill_powers]: position are you playing? Are you scholarship athlete or a non scholarship

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[bill_powers]: athlete? It is really, really, really, really complicated Point is, I think it

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[bill_powers]: helped me in working with Um. Some people that I'd been through that Mhm. um,

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[bill_powers]: uh, I wish I had had someone pull me aside and say it, Um,

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[bill_powers]: and and, and the longer we practice law, at least I practice a lot. the more I

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[bill_powers]: feel my individual life experiences have helped me to give some conteacts I say

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[bill_powers]: to clients all the time. I'm trying. I'm not trying to judge or seem like a Mr.

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[bill_powers]: Know at all. It just I think it helps to know why I say what I say and I've

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[bill_powers]: been there, and um, and uh, that's not to say that aren't very very good

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[bill_powers]: lawyers out there that have um. A, don't have children. that can't be quite

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[bill_powers]: good. I just think in in in in your selection of attorney. I don't think it

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[bill_powers]: hurts to ask around a little bit and say, probably was your legal experience

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[bill_powers]: and what your life experience, and right. What' your philosophy That that

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[bill_powers]: applies to it? Whether you want an attorney who tries to be more collaborative

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[bill_powers]: in nature, which we are admittedly very collaboratively oriented. Um, if you

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[bill_powers]: come to us, and and we perceive that you want to inflict pain through the

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[bill_powers]: courts, we'll probably recommend that you taught to some small attorneys and

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[bill_powers]: maybe look around, because I,

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[bill_powers]: Caroline, What's your philosophy Abus in accords to inflict pain? It never ends

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[bill_powers]: well, even if you win any money, and there are costs. I always reminded people,

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[bill_powers]: and this is in criminal cases and family. In all cases there are costs of

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[bill_powers]: associated with litigation. It just comes from somebody who' spent a lot of

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[bill_powers]: years duing it on in court. Um. their emotional cost. There are the cost of the

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[bill_powers]: attornity or cost of getting a result that you don't necessarily like or want.

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[bill_powers]: So, uh, maybe you do is wrap up and our, Uh, and our time here on law talk is

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[bill_powers]: go. maybe maybe hit us with these these five points. I sure will.

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[bill_powers]: Our first point is's try to keep it out of court. Our second point is to know

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[bill_powers]: that the preference generally these days is for shared custody. Our third point

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[bill_powers]: and maybe our most important point is to keep the kids out of it,

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[bill_powers]: and no, a number four that you can always engage professionals if you need it.

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[bill_powers]: And remember that

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[bill_powers]: even if you and the cohrent are getting along great, it's always a good idea to

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[bill_powers]: get an O. a parenting order or agreement in place, and then our bonus,

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[bill_powers]: rorowund.

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[bill_powers]: Um,

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[bill_powers]: it's to find an attorney whos a ex an experienced parent. Um, and I think that

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[bill_powers]: wraps it up for us, and I think it gives you a good overview of

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[bill_powers]: what our firm finds important.

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[bill_powers]: Um. in this process. Well, thank you so much, Caroline for joining us. If you

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[bill_powers]: have questions or topics for law talk and law talk. Um is intended as an

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[bill_powers]: educational resource. If you have an individual legal question or want to seek

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[bill_powers]: some sort of a formal opinion or advice, recommend to speak with an attorney.

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[bill_powers]: If you have topics of conversation, Rodards policy, Wa, how things work in

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[bill_powers]: court, Um the legal profession, E. If your law student want to know information

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[bill_powers]: about you, will you go to law school? That's what all talker for. Give us a

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[bill_powers]: ring at se o, four, three, four, two help, a seven, o, four, three, four, two,

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[bill_powers]: four, three, five seven.

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[bill_powers]: You've been listening to Lawock with Bill Powers, your resource for legal

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[bill_powers]: issues and legislation, practice tips, professionalism and policy discussions,

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[bill_powers]: Wantnna talk to Bill Powers. call seven o, four, three for two. Help. that's

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[bill_powers]: seven, ▁zero, four, three, four, two, four, three, five, seven, flaw. Talk with

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[bill_powers]: Bill Powers is an educational resource. Only the information presented does not

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[bill_powers]: constitute legal advice and is not a substitute for consulting with an

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[bill_powers]: attorney. Every situation is unique. Therefore you should always consult with a

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[bill_powers]: licensed attorney before making any legal decision.