Speaker: 00:00:01

Welcome to Psychologically Speaking.

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Hi, I'm Leela and this is a podcast all about human behaviour, bringing together

fascinating research, insights and real life experiences.

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As a psychologist, I'll share how the spaces we live and work in shape who we are.

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And this season, we're diving into the fascinating gap between intentions and actions, a

liminal space where plans meet spontaneity.

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Before we get into this episode though, why do we love to do lists and the part that they

play in Plans Becoming Action?

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I want to talk to you about something else.

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People who resist them and you know who you are, maybe you take pride in yourself and your

fantastic memory.

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Maybe you think that lists might slow you down.

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Maybe you're convinced that if something is important enough, you'll just remember it.

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I used to be one of those people.

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For years, I genuinely believed I had an amazing memory.

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I thought I could keep track of everything in my head.

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And honestly, it is still one of the things I love most about how my complex brain works.

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But I know I can remember the phrases that people use, the exact way they express

something and the words they reach for.

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And it's a huge part of the work that I do in psychology and coaching because often,

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It's those small and specific words that start to reveal what we truly think, feel or

need.

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But I sat in a cognitive psychology lecture on attention where we were given a spot test

by the lecturer to prove a point.

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And in hindsight, it should have been easy for someone like me who thought they were great

at remembering things, somebody who's always got a million things going on in their head.

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But I only got one or two questions right out of that spot quiz.

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The majority, I probably captured a bit of the question, got bits of it wrong, or I just

struggled with.

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And here's the thing, I could probably blame that on being perimenopausal.

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Yes, brain fog and distraction were hitting me hard, it was also, I think, coming out of

lockdown.

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But it was like somebody had turned my memory dial way down from where I thought it was.

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And suddenly I couldn't rely on what

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had always worked for me before.

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I think that was the nudge that I needed to start practising note taking and taking it

more seriously really.

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I started to use lists and not just assuming that I would start to remember things.

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And it was a real game changer because I started to work out which lists did work for me

and which lists didn't.

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So if you are somebody who's resisted lists or thought that you've not needed them, I get

it and I was you, but stay with me today because we're going to talk about how to use them

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in a way that helps you without it feeling

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like a massive list or chore and also how to avoid falling into the trap of prove it

lists.

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So let's get into it.

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Why do we love lists so much in the first place?

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I want you to think about what your to-do list looks like right now.

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Is it full of things you actually want to do or is it packed with things that you should

do?

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And what kind of list is this?

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Are you one of those people who's got a mental list, a mental load list even, a shopping

list, a Trello board?

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notes on your iPhone, scraps of paper, a full-blown strategy with actions, or perhaps

you've got a bit of everything above.

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Humans, folk, we love lists.

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But today, I want to invite you to get curious because we're not just talking about lists.

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We're going to explore when does listing things stop being helpful?

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And when does it start to become a to prove list?

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Today we're going to start thinking about recognising when your list is working for you or

your technique of remembering stuff and when it's actually working against you.

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And there three ways that we're going to do that today.

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First, we're going to look at why our brains love lists so much.

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And psychologically speaking, when you understand that psychology, you can use it to your

advantage.

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We're then going to look at the structure of lists.

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and how that can help us take action instead of being overwhelming.

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And we finally will do an exercise together at the end.

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And this is going to be looking at seeing whether your list or your mental lists are about

progress or proving yourself to others.

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So let's start with the first step.

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Psychologically speaking, lists work because they align with how our brains process

information.

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And there are seven reasons why lists are so appealing that I've got for you today.

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The first one is cognitive ease.

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So our brains really crave that kind of pattern and order.

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And it helps us with lists to break down information into chunks, which become patterns,

making them easier to

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visually scan and remember.

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Secondly, we've got that sense of control.

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Lists help us to organize thoughts and create structure in what is essentially a really

complex and chaotic world.

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Thirdly, quick gratification.

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We know that we get a hit from ticking things off, whether that's a dopamine hit or a

sense of satisfaction.

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This thing's really real.

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Number four, attention friendly.

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So lists.

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help us when we're overwhelmed with content.

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It helps us get to the point of focus around where we should be.

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Number five, we've got predictability and curiosity.

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And numbered lists build expectation.

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So when we're starting to read lists in writing or in magazines or on websites, it helps

to keep us engaged because we're almost conditioned, aren't we, to move through from item

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one, two, three, and four.

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Then we've got cultural conditioning.

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So from childhood, I mean, I think one of my earliest memories of lists would be a

spelling book that I used in reception class with my teacher, Miss Clark, and it had a

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pink cover.

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And I remember that there'd be words like Janet and John, because they were related to the

books we read at the time.

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And I can still visually see this list of words and the little green ticks that she used

to put by the side of the words.

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as I stood by her desk and went through that spelling list.

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So some of our earliest memories are linked to listing.

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We've also got things like shopping lists.

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Perhaps there was an omnipresent shopping list in your house.

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Perhaps you were in a space where there were rules about things.

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Did your school have a list of rules that you had to adhere to, like classroom monitor

rules?

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Perhaps when you went into the world of work you were given health and safety rules.

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I worked in McDonald's for a short amount of time and there were lots of lists actually.

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was, I think there was four or five characteristics of a fry and we had to memorise those.

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I think one of them had to be that it was like crunchy and mealy on the inside or

something like that.

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But you start to see how lists are just really part and parcel of everything that we do.

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And then finally, number seven, we've got that processing overload.

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So lists really simplify complexity.

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When there's too much information, lists can help provide us with clarity.

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And yes, I just gave you a list about why we love lists, because lists work.

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But here's where we need to get really curious, because if lists are so great, why do they

feel overwhelming?

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So I'm gonna take a quick break to tell you about something special.

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If today's episode is resonating with you and you've ever struggled with feeling like you

have to prove yourself, I have something for you.

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On Tuesday the 22nd of April at 1 p.m., I'm running a 30-minute adult inset day webinar on

imposter phenomenon.

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It's timed to fall just after that Easter holiday period.

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I'm going to be streaming this live on YouTube with three practical exercises designed to

help you.

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We're going to flip from confidence-based imposter mindset to one based on trust and risk.

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And we're going to align your work with who you really are instead of who you think you

should be.

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And the session will help you to move past self-doubt and start taking action in a way

that feels right for you.

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It's free to join.

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You can sign up right now by heading to www.leilaainge.co.uk.

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And the session will be recorded.

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So if you're signing up, you're going to get that replay.

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If you've been waiting for the confidence to get started on something, this is your chance

to work with what you've really got using some of that imposter phenomenon research that

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I've done.

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OK, let's get back to today's episode.

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So we're starting to wonder why some lists work and some just stresses out or completely

overwhelm us.

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And the secret isn't about what's on that list, but possibly around how it's structured.

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So.

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My list that I gave you had seven items on it and I'm guessing that you can't remember all

of those seven things that I talked about.

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You might remember the item where I talked about social conditioning and memories because

I gave you an example or a scenario, a little story about me being at school and

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remembering using a list with my spellings with my teacher Miss Clark.

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So lists work really well if they're then paired with other things that keep our

attention.

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And the reason that seven is linked with lists is there was a piece of work by a

psychologist called George Miller, and he found that our working memory holds about seven

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items plus or minus two.

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Recent studies suggest that actually it's not the number, it might be the grouping that is

more...

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powerful for us and that's why you start to see the rule of three everywhere.

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So in storytelling we've got the obvious beginning, middle and end.

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In marketing you'd have things like three key benefits.

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In speeches, especially TED talks and elements like that, they tend to pick up on three

memorable points or actions.

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And why does that work?

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It's kind of just enough information to be impactful, but it's not overwhelming and it's

not overloading our cognitive resources.

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So we've just talked about how lists help our brains to process information and why

smaller lists, the rule of three, might be more effective.

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But here's where I want to get curious with you because for some people those lists aren't

helpful.

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In fact, they can actually be part of a procrastination cycle.

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And that's where we start to think about things like ADHD.

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So research shows that people with ADHD often struggle with procrastination, but not

because they're

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lazy or unmotivated.

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It's tied to executive function.

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So the part of the brain that's helping with planning or prioritising and time management.

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And that's where lists come in, but they come in in a surprisingly unhelpful way because

ADHD and to-do lists start to interact because people will write down lists to give

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structure and reduce overwhelm and to help them get started, but it can backfire.

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The long detailed list can actually make somebody feel more overwhelmed.

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You don't have to have ADHD for that to happen.

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It can lead to a mental freeze though for that ADHD brain.

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And that's where nothing gets done at all.

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That's our task paralysis, if you like, or analysis paralysis.

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And then there's something else that happens, which is a bit of a trick where the act of

writing down a list can feel like...

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productivity itself or action because it is an action.

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There's research that suggests that for ADHD the process of writing it means that they

never actually get to the tasks themselves and that might be why you see somebody

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rewriting a list over and over but struggling to tick things off.

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Perhaps that's happened to you, perhaps you start Mondays picking up lots of tasks that

have carried on from one week to another.

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If that does resonate with you, here's something you can try.

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Instead of a big list, what if you give yourself just one priority task at a time?

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But if you really do love making lists, set yourself a timer, a five minute timer to write

your list, but then move straight into action on item one.

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If you're someone who finds yourself writing those lists but still procrastinating, you've

got to start reframing it into terms of

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Are you making a list to get things done or is this making a list actually another form of

procrastination or is it leading to avoidance because you're spending time on the list

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itself?

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So this is why productivity isn't just about being busy as a strategy and it's about

knowing yourself, isn't it?

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And figuring out what truly moves you forward.

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And I keep repeating this phrase of, I want to meet you where you're at and you do have

the answers.

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So you know what works for you.

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So let's keep going.

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Because now that we know what works and what doesn't psychologically and how our brain

remembers things, we need to look at how...

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we remember stuff within a list because not all list items are created equal.

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So there's something called the serial position effect and we might remember the first few

items on a list and we might remember the last few items on the list and that's the

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primacy and the recency effect.

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The middle bit, not so much.

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We completely lose the plot in the middle of stuff.

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This is why the six o'clock news

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always has that format of they're going to tell you what they're going to tell you, then

they tell you what they're going to tell you, they say it, then they remind you, and then

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at the end they tell you what they told you again, because perhaps you zoned off in the

middle or went off to make a cup of tea.

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And here's a challenge.

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I want you to think about your to-do list.

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So if it's not written down, that's absolutely fine.

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Visualise it, picture it in your head and just pick three things.

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If you could only do three things today or tomorrow, what would they be?

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And now let's take it one step further because I'm going to ask you, what are you trying

to prove with those tasks or actions?

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So this is part three of the podcast and this is all about are your lists, your to-do

lists, to-prove lists?

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And if you're curious about why this matters, let's go back to motivation.

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And back in episode two in Ripples of Accountability, we actually explored

self-determination theory and it highlighted three core human needs.

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There you go, a list of three things again.

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You'll see lists of three and so.

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pop up everywhere now.

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But the first one in that list of the self-determination theory is autonomy.

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So this is in order for us to be motivated and enjoy the tasks that we're doing, we need

to have a bit of power or autonomy or agency in what we choose to do.

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The second thing is competence.

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So can we do the thing?

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And do we feel that we've got the ability to succeed?

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It shouldn't be too difficult and it shouldn't be too easy.

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And then there's relatedness.

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And again,

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I think in episode two I said how relatedness was a really interesting concept when it

comes to our motivation.

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And again, relatedness is the thing that is going to unseat us with our to-do list because

that relatedness means that we're seeking connection and validation from others.

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And that's it.

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When we start to have a to-do list which looks like validation seeking, it becomes a prove

list.

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It's not a list about moving you towards your goals.

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list more about seeking validation.

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And whilst some activities around listing that have those activities on aren't a bad

thing, having a whole to-do list full of validation seeking activities is usually a big

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red flag that something needs to change.

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We all need validation and I am absolutely no different from this.

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I absolutely love it when somebody contacts me and says, I heard your podcast or I really

like the way you framed this.

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I've recently had some lovely feedback about a workshop I delivered and that external

validation is truly important to me.

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I do need that.

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And without it, I think I would struggle to feel that I was making an impact because

success metrics themselves don't always work for me.

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But how many of the tasks on your list are about providing or proving something to others?

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If you lose sight of what actually moves you forward, so in my instance, for me, it's

about completing my PhD.

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My PhD is my central goal in life at the moment.

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Everything else around that is enabling that to happen from keeping connected with

entrepreneurial communities.

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having some fun with the podcast so that all of the hard reading that I do can feel like a

joyous task.

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I really enjoy doing that.

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But that PhD is partly, yes, I want to be able to say, yes, I can do this.

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So that's validation, proving myself.

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The other part is just real deep curiosity and wanting to learn and develop a particular

research area because I can and I want to do it.

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I'm intrinsically motivated for that.

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So I want you to look at your own current to-do list or your goal, your big goal in life.

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If you've got one and say, how many of the tasks or things on my to-do list are about

proving my worth to others?

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But how many actually align with my personal or my business goals?

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And if you stripped away all external expectations, so you didn't need to proove yourself,

or you didn't need to get validation, what would be left on that list?

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That's a really good one.

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It's especially relevant for women in business validation because a lot of research shows

that women face more critical evaluations and that leads to higher expectations in that

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business sphere.

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And it also then leads to overwork and approval seeking.

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And there are lots of other things that tap into this.

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There's the inequity and unfairness around childcare and mental load.

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Loads of things that then start, you start to see why to-do lists might be so busy with

busy tasks and productivity rather than moving us towards progress.

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So if you're a coach or an entrepreneur, you might want to ask yourself or your clients

this, where do you think this pressure for validation is coming from?

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Is it your own standards or external expectations?

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That's always a really good starting point.

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And if societal norms weren't a factor, if you could step into, I suppose, a truly

wonderfully equal world where there isn't systemic issues, how would you be defining

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success then?

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I think when we start to look at reframing success, especially for people who are sitting

in content and social media spaces, and I include myself in this, it's around how we do

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fall into that busyness trap.

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So we can be posting on social media every day.

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Is it to stay visible or is it strategic?

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Is it about engagement?

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And it might be a shift from showing up to strategic impact.

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Instead of thinking things like, did I post today?

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It would be, did my content create real engagement?

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I'm not a social media expert, but these are the types of things I think coaches in that

area move their clients towards, or certainly what I've seen.

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And it sits with this psychological perspective of measuring results and not effort when

we start to reframe how we look at productivity and busyness.

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So instead of,

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Did I spend hours today crafting the perfect post or doing the perfect piece of work?

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You could be asking yourself, how has this piece of work that I've done today contributed

to my overall business goals?

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Because if your to-do list is only about proving your worth to others, what's happening

when nobody's watching?

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So imagine this, you're finishing your day, you're tired, but you've ticked off lots of

stuff on your list.

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Ask yourself, what did you actually achieve today?

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And if you hesitate, if you feel like you haven't made progress, this is a good time to do

the next activity, which is an audit around what's on your list.

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So your challenge for this week or your reflection if you like is to identify something on

your to-do list that you're doing purely for external validation.

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And remember these aren't bad things to do.

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External validation isn't a dirty word, it's absolutely okay.

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But you want a balance of to-do list items, some that are about your internal needs and

goals and some that are external.

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But start noticing those external ones.

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Can you delegate it?

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Can you set boundaries around it?

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Can you reframe it to align with your values?

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That's a really good one.

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And also, you know, talk about it with other people and see what really matters.

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Your to-do list should absolutely be about progress and not proving yourself.

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So considering the serial effect that I mentioned in part two, I'm now going to remind you

what we covered in today's podcasts.

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Number one,

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We covered why our brains love lists so much, and there's loads of reasons.

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There are seven actually.

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You might want to go back and listen to those.

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We looked at the psychology of list order and number of items on the list in the middle,

and the recency effect, because that should be quite fresh on you.

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We've talked about that in the last 20 minutes.

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We looked at an audit reflection activity based on self-determination theory, and this is

about our need for relatedness.

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and what makes a seek out validation, isn't a bad thing.

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But we want to be making sure that we're looking that proportionally and making sure that

it's balanced and your list is focused on progress, not just proving your worth to others.

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So this week, your coaching prompt is to audit and edit your list, whatever it looks like,

make space for what truly matters.

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And perhaps if you've not been using list, try using a list, see if it helps your memory,

it's certainly helped me.

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If you're feeling stuck, overwhelmed or like your to-do list is running the show instead

of you, then this is where I help my clients.

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My online coaching bookings are now open for April and May and I have space.

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So if you're a business owner, coach or entrepreneur who wants to work a little bit

differently, not just harder, I'd love to help you move from being productive, busy to

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aligned and making meaningful progress.

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you can visit www.leilaainge.co.uk forward slash coaching and that's L-E-I-L-A-A-I-N-G-E

forward slash coaching to book a session or find out.

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Thank you for listening to Psychologically Speaking today.

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A reminder that if you are enjoying this season, to rate and review the podcast, it means

an enormous amount to independent podcasters like me.

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See you next time.