What's going on, everybody?

I'm Matt.

I'm Derek.

Welcome to the truth response.

He.

I could pray today.

Okay.

All right.

Father God, I just want to thank you for yet another day that we get to learn how.

How to live life with you in relationship.

And how we can glorify you more, how we can worship you more.

And how we can spread your word to others better.

And how we can spread your love and grace and your mercy to everyone that we come in contact with.

God.

I pray for forgiveness for when we stumble.

And I pray for the wisdom to know what things we can and can't change.

God, and the courage to change the things that we can.

We just love you and thank you for the guidance in this conversation.

And it's in your precious and holy name we pray.

Amen.

Amen.

So.

So we had some write ins.

Yeah, we had some, some comments and some comments that didn't end up on any of our social medias, but came directly to me.

And I figured it'd be cool to kind of read a little bit.

Cause I was with some of the topics that we talked about.

I was not sure how it would go over with our female audience.

And actually all of the comments I think that we got were from female audience members and none of them were negative.

So that's great.

Of course, we're still early on.

It's only been out for two days, so, you know, who knows?

So I had one comment that said, what an amazing podcast.

They make such good, valid points.

I truly wish I had their way of stating things to talk with my girls about many years ago.

I'm hoping that my daughter can take lessons from this and her kids still at home.

And for my grandchildren who will someday have children to talk with at the appropriate age and time.

Excellent session.

Pastor Matt has such a personal and logical way of speaking.

And of course Derek plays devil's advocate and also makes points.

This is true.

I also make points.

Not necessarily good points, but they are playing devil's advocate.

I'm making a point right now.

Making a point.

Thank you for that.

Another listener said, I sent this over to my daughter.

I hope she listens to it and possibly learns something meaningful.

It's pretty, pretty cool because like, like we talked, you know, like I know that we don't have any females on the podcast regularly right now.

Yeah.

And so having talked about some things.

Yeah, you know, I figured that would be a button pusher.

Not in a.

To make a point of pushing buttons, but just simply because I truly have.

Have been thinking about that and hadn't thought about it.

To have women who are, who have gone through the whole having children and now they're older, you know, like to have them say, man, I wish we could have said some of the things the way that you said them and not necessarily even what I said, but just like the whole conversation that we had, you know, I could have seen it going a little off.

Well, you know, you take a risk sometimes when you spit the truth.

And I'm with you for the listener that put it in.

I wish I had this when I was younger.

I wish I had known it and thought of it or understood it way better before.

So I'm with you on that.

We got another kind of write in from a listener in their small group.

It said, I have two suggestions for podcast topics.

Here's one.

How about how to love the unlovely, Loving like Jesus.

Here's the second one.

How to forgive those that have hurt you deeply.

How to prayer for those that have hurt you.

I find these suggestions interesting because I myself have been under attack by a person and they've been praying for God to help me pray for that person.

This is a first for me.

I've never been under attack by anyone.

So I don't know if the Truth Response has done an episode on this topic.

But you know what?

We are going to do that today.

These are some good stuff.

Trying to love the unlovely, I think goes hand in hand for sometimes with how to forgive those who have hurt you deeply, those who sometimes feel like they're attacking you, they're against you.

I think that's a good thing to talk about today and I think we can both speak from some experience in this.

First off, some people we'll talk about loving those that aren't easy to love.

Sometimes I think it goes hand in hand with like how to love those who you feel are doing wrong in this world.

Either way, can we define love?

Like, what does it mean to love somebody?

Show compassion, patience, charity to forgiveness.

I guess it all goes hand in hand.

Not keeping a record of wrong, that's a hard one, I think.

I think that's one we don't think about.

So like, when it comes to people who are less than lovely as, as it was put unlovely, I find that it's real easy to be like, yeah, well, you've done this and this and this and this and this.

And that's why, you know, you're in this boat.

And it's like that's keeping a record of Wrong right there, bro.

Like, I understand there's.

There's to some extent, like, you don't want to be a doormat, right?

Like, you don't want to be stepped all over all the time.

But at the same time, to truly love somebody means that you don't hold those things against them.

Yeah, it's interesting.

It's not that these things don't happen, and not holding a record of wrongs doesn't necessarily mean you have to somehow forget that these things have happened.

You know, it is something where, you know, especially when we get to like, talking about people that have hurt you really badly, working to forgive doesn't always mean that you've forgotten what happened, but what you do with that is the difference.

Like, if you use it to learn and to make the right decisions going forward, great.

But to keep doing, like you said, like, to just keep piling stuff up so that for the purpose of ammunition for that you can go to that person, you've done this, this, this, this, this, this, this.

That's a different kind of heart.

I might have to dis.

Of course you would.

Well, yeah, but like, I.

I have normally seen it that way, but I mean, just in the midst of this conversation, like, I don't know, I think that letting it go is part of it.

I mean, like.

Well, I'm not talking about not letting.

It go, but if you're letting it inform your future decisions, Right?

To what extent?

Because that is holding a record of wrong at that point.

You know what I mean?

Like, I don't know.

Okay, so.

But why, but what?

So the heart behind it, I think, is a big factor here.

Yes, but there are so many people that keeps throwing in my face that perception matters.

So, like, I.

I gonna push back.

On that perception and heart.

So I understand the whole heart has a.

Has it matters.

It's a big part of it.

And I think that's the biggest parts.

But.

But perception in that does not that the other person's perception of you making a decision about them and how you're gonna let them, like, say, interact with your children or your family or whatever.

Like.

Cause I'm thinking for my daughter, right?

Like, had a kid punch her in the eye the other day.

It's not intentionally, but it happened, right?

So like.

So it's one of those things that all of the little things that happen, like, was it on purpose?

Well, everybody swears no.

Okay, I let it go, right.

It was still a wrong that happened.

He should have been paying attention to what was happening.

He shouldn't have punched her, right?

Yeah.

But it's an accident, so I let it go.

I'm not gonna be like, yeah, that kid keeps hitting my kid.

Well, okay, if it becomes a pattern, then that's one thing.

But there's a difference.

There's a difference in knowing that someone did something, right?

If somebody has done something, done you wrong, done you really wrong, and they.

To the point where they really broke your trust, stabbed you in the back just like that.

I mean, it's.

I would say.

I mean, first thing we've got to work towards is learning how to forgive and, you know, let go.

But letting go doesn't necessarily mean not remembering it, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to invite them back in either.

There's a trick to that.

And let me explain.

So, like, I'll use myself.

I got hurt by a group of people, and, you know, whether they knew what they were doing or not.

And it took a while.

It took a long while for me to, like, heal from that and to get to the point where I could just keep working on forgiving them further and deeper and then eventually get to the point where I could release them from that.

But releasing them didn't mean I don't remember that it happened.

And I learned about the actions that were done and the things in a way that I can prepare myself, that if I see things like that in the future from anyone, I can try to take appropriate action, get ahead of it or something like that, but I can release them because, you know, my life moved on from that, you know, And I don't need that weighing me down.

I don't need it weighing me down.

Okay, but say that same.

Same person were to be in your life.

Right.

On a regular basis still, and you're gonna have to interact with that person.

How do you then deal with them?

That's only if.

So every situation is different.

Sure.

But that's where the records of wrong is tested.

Okay.

So that's where we actually get the clarity.

Because Jesus wouldn't have.

Well, let's.

And he's the example.

I know he's perfect.

I get that.

But he also is the definition, right?

Like, he is that perfect example of the definition of what love is.

And so he didn't.

He didn't keep record of wrong.

Right.

And he let those same people in that wanted back in and those same people to come back.

Okay, so how do you.

How do you.

I don't know.

How do you bridge that gap?

How do I bridge the gap?

Mm.

Well, first, we're not Jesus and it's harder for us to do these things.

Sure.

But that's what we should strive for.

We should, you know, when we are, when the end of everything comes and we stand before the throne.

Right.

We're told that we're going to give an account for everything that we've done.

Right.

For those of us who are name written in the book of life being those who have trusted Jesus for their salvation, our sins are covered, right?

Sure, yeah.

We're in agreeance.

Absolutely.

Awesome.

Okay.

But they still know what we did.

Sure, but it means nothing because it actually has been taken from us.

They've been forgiven.

Not just forgiven, they're gone.

Okay, but they still know.

But they're gone.

They've been written away.

Well, okay, but there's still a record of wrongs.

That's maybe.

Alright, so we don't actually know that.

See, that's the thing.

See, that's.

See.

Okay, but because you're talking from a human perspective, you're talking about a future thing that's going to happen.

But we don't know, we don't know if that whole all the wrongs was, oh, there's nothing here for you because Jesus covered them and got rid of them.

Okay?

Yeah.

We also don't know.

Right, right.

Well, okay, well, let's go back.

We're looking at this from a divine perspective.

We're trying to.

Which we're gonna fail to do.

But let's look at this from a human perspective.

Right.

Someone wrongs you and you're able to work towards forgiveness, which is hard, 100%.

I'm not saying any of it's easy.

But let's say you can and then let's say you can.

There's certain situations where you can move past this and try to have reconciliation and maybe rebuild a relationship or such like that.

Sometimes I think that some relationships like you can forgive and move on, but not necessarily together.

What I mean is like in this world, like, look, man, I've had if a married couple, right.

If there is a cheating spouse, right.

And one of the other spouse is.

I know, I'm playing with it.

Quit turning it.

I'm fidgeting while I'm talking.

Okay, so let's go back.

Let's say a man and woman are married and one of them cheats on the other and just breaks the other one's heart.

Sure.

And so they get a divorce.

After the divorce they move on.

And the person that was really hurt from this whole thing, I mean, they felt Stabbed in the back, they felt a lack of trust they've never had before.

It's amazing what they went through.

Heart in a blender.

The whole thing finds another person has even better life now.

Okay, so in that scenario, that person that was hurt before is able to forgive.

Right.

He was able to completely forgive and almost maybe even celebrate what happened because of what they have now is so much better than what they had before.

Yeah, but that's not.

That's not keeping a record of wrong.

Hold up.

Okay.

I'm failing to see where the connection is.

So continue.

Okay.

You're trying to jump ahead of me.

I am jumping ahead.

I'm sorry.

So in that scenario, that person can forgive.

Does it mean they forgot what happened?

No, but they can completely forgive and release that person.

However, that relationship is not going to be reconciled back into where it was.

Right.

It is released.

That person is released.

I release you.

And see, sometimes we forget that.

The Bible tells us that forgiveness sometimes is more for us than it is for them.

That, you know, it's a sickness, it's a poison that enters into our body.

Resentful and hate.

You know, we forget that sometimes in this world as we go on, you know, someone may have hurt us and not thought a thing about it ever since.

And yet we could be the ones that are being poisoned and hurt because we're the ones still holding on to it.

Yeah, but 99% of the time, 99% of the time, we forget about reconciliation in all of our.

Well, hang on.

Because there's something to that, right?

Like, we ignore reconciliation in forgiveness.

99% of the time we aren't thinking.

We want this relationship to be back to where it was when someone hurts us.

We don't think that.

We think, I'm gonna get over this and I'm going to forgive this person and I'm going to move on.

That's the wrong way to look at it.

That's not scriptural way of looking at it.

Every single situation should be looked at from the perspective of reconciliation first.

First and foremost, the relationships.

Because that's all we're talking about really is relationships.

Right.

Whether it's us, God, us and each other, us and nature, us and ourselves.

We are looking at relationships.

And when relationships get broken, reconciliation is the very first and ultimate goal we should be looking at, regardless of the situation.

I think I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that.

I'm gonna disagree with you on that.

Back it up by Scripture, because I don't see where.

Here's the thing.

You just took the hardest thing and tried to make it the first thing.

That's crazy.

You can't even get there without.

Wait.

I said that's the goal of it.

And I'm saying we don't even have that in mind when we start.

Sometimes.

Sometimes in this broken world, once something's broken, it's broken.

And I think that's.

You've already defeated yourself if you've got that mentality.

No, what I mean is that there are people that are not meant to be walking in this life together.

They're not.

I think that sometimes it is what it is.

And honestly, there are people that have been severely hurt.

You're telling me that there should be reconciliation every time.

So you're telling me that a woman.

If I'm.

That should be the goal.

If I'm pastorally counseling a woman that has been raped violently.

Sure.

That I'm telling her that she should not just forgive and forget, but she should reconcile with that person, have a relationship with them.

That should be the end goal.

Yes, that's.

You realize how crazy that is?

Nobody wants to hear that.

I understand that.

But as a Christian, that is the truth.

Trying to work with that person to help them forgive and embrace, that is a lot of work.

You're acting as though when you're counseling someone, you don't word things in a way that is better heard and taken.

When you mean this, you're saying this so they take it better.

Like we do that all the time.

To tell them that they have to go and try to reconcile with this person.

Do you realize that is the end goal as a Christian, period?

Okay, let me ask you a question then.

Okay.

Yeah.

You get cut, there's a large scar on your arm.

How do you get the scar to go away?

It either heals or doesn't.

It doesn't.

Yes, I understand that it doesn't.

Some scars don't heal.

I.

Some scars don't heal, but you can get used to them.

You can let go of what happened to it, the scar, towards the trauma of having it.

Yeah, but scar is not the point of it.

The wound healed.

The wound healed.

Right.

There's a certain kind of.

There's a certain kind of.

What do you call them, Bowls, plates, and stuff like this in Japan?

They're amazing.

What happens is this stuff gets broken and they put it back together.

They put gold in them and they're beautiful.

Right.

The thing is, is that although they're put back together with gold in the middle.

Right.

They're not Ever the same, Ever.

It doesn't go back to being.

The scars are still there.

Sure.

The signs are still there.

Yeah.

It's the same with sometimes you can't break and tear a heart and expect it to just go back to playing.

You're right.

But you're looking at it as though you have the power at all to do any of this.

No, it's not even the point.

You realize how if anyone is.

If we're going to get to heaven and be able to finally release everything, that's going to be awesome.

But until on this side of heaven, the idea that we're going to try to get everybody to not only forgive the most heinous things that have ever happened to him, but try to get back with those people that have done it, especially if they have a pattern of continuing.

That's ridiculous.

That is ridiculous.

It's shown in Hosea, I believe, isn't it, that God does that with his people and we should do likewise.

You know what, Isn't it Hosea, where he's like the prostitute and going back to.

We are told to forgive and love, and that's what we can do.

We can't.

If someone hurts you in a deep way, you know, we're not commanded to then go become best friends with them again.

But you can love someone from a distance.

You can release them.

One of the most loving things you can do for someone is to no longer hold those things against them and release them into the world so that when they face judgment, they're not having an account against them.

I'm not saying that's not a step along the way.

And I'm not saying.

Not saying redemption comes like reconciliation comes.

I mean, I'm not saying reconciliation comes immediately.

Right?

Like, I never said that.

I said that should be the end goal from the beginning.

Our hearts and minds should be that reconciliation is on our hearts and minds.

I think that there are certain things in this world that people do to one another that you should be.

What we need to work on is releasing that, not trying to go back and have it done again.

All right, we'll have to agree to disagree on this, one man.

Because like.

And I know, I know, I know this one hits a little weird for you, probably because you're getting really defensive on it.

But it's this.

It's a reality.

I understand.

And what I'm saying is like, yes, but we are called to something higher.

I understand what humanity is capable of and what our tendencies are.

And we also can't control the other person.

I understand that too.

Right.

There's part of it.

We can't.

And there's something to be said for knowing that there's danger there and not going back in.

Okay.

So what I'm trying to say.

But you should be working towards.

I think one of the most beautiful things a human can do in any capacity is to be that hurt and find ways to not only forgive and realize that it's okay that that's happened now that their life has gone.

Sure.

You know, and then release them.

Be like, you know what?

I'm not gonna hold this anymore.

I'm gonna let you go.

I'm gonna let that person go, that group of people go.

That.

This thing that's happened, you know, it's good.

It's fine now.

It's fine.

I would almost like.

It's.

Is it.

Is it because you're missing that final part?

That's the problem that I'm having with this is that.

That you are missing that final bit.

The final bit.

Yeah.

I would even.

Like if people are able to even write letters or reach out and say, listen, I do forgive you.

That doesn't necessarily mean that you need to go, but you need to come be my best friend again.

We don't need to be walking this life together.

Hey, look, I'm not saying that the two people like you obviously can't.

You can't fix everything.

So in a situation where.

No, you can't.

That's my point.

But reconciliation can still happen.

In some cases.

In all cases, it can happen.

Some cases, Reconciliation, this side of heaven.

Is not going to happen only because there's an unwillingness to let it.

There is.

That requires more than one person.

There's two sides to all of that.

That requires both sides.

I get that same spot.

You can't put that on one side of the equation.

But if you are all that you can control, then it's your responsibility to be willing if that person's ready.

Your responsibility is to forgive and release it from your heart.

That is your responsibility.

Not this other stuff.

Show me scripture where it says forgive and release from your heart.

From what I've read, it says, love keeps no records of wrong, which means it's gone.

Okay, so.

And reconciliation is all throughout scripture.

I mean, how many times have.

Has.

Did.

Did Israel, like, leave God and he seek after them?

I mean.

Okay, I'm going to give you the first scripture.

Big poke to your bubble here is the fact that why do we then have a Bible that shows us how we cannot do it on our own by giving us a complete record of wrongs that we've done since the fruit of the garden.

We have it so we can learn from it to make better choices going forward.

That's why we have it.

God gave us this for us to remember.

We are to remember what he's done and remember where we've fallen short.

If Scripture is a record of wrongs.

A record is both a reference.

It's got a record of wrongs in it, and it's about how we can be reconciled to our Creator.

If Scripture is keeping a record of wrongs, then God is not being loving.

He is being loving by showing he.

Is, because that is literally keeping a record of wrongs and love.

First Corinthians 13 says that love does not keep a record of wrong.

No, you are mis.

You're confusing two different things.

Two different things?

Well, we're using the same terms to describe the two different things.

Okay, but listen to me.

You're told that your personal wrongs can be forgiven, but the wronging of humanity, it shows us that until we can accept God's forgiveness, if we don't accept, we are condemned already.

Scripture makes that clear.

The difference.

The only thing the perfect God has to have condemnation.

Condemnation is only for those who don't believe and those who do believe are not condemned.

That's the only two things that that talks about.

Yeah.

So if there's a condemnation for those who are not in Christ Jesus, then that is a record of wrongs, my friend.

The wrong is only not believing.

The biggest wrong is not believing.

But the fact that you've sinned at all ever is what separates you from God.

And that is on your record until you can expunge it through the blood of Christ.

And the Bible is an incredible record of how we fell short again and again and again.

The nation of Israel fell short from the time, well, even before Moses, but they fell short after Moses, into the Judges, into the King era, they continued.

And we have a record of it.

Why?

So we can learn from it.

So that we can see what?

That we need God above everything else on this.

We can't do it ourselves.

Sure, I haven't disagreed with any of this.

But here's the thing.

We have God in the midst of this.

I'm not talking about Christians and non Christians because that is obviously two different playing fields.

But I'm saying if you are a Christian, your end goal should be reconciliation.

That should be the end goal.

My end goal is to be in heaven, where I won't be able to.

Be hurt by people anymore.

I'm in with the situation, with the person.

Reconciliation.

Here's.

I reconcile my heart to the fact that I can release them and forgive them and move past it and not hold that with me going forward, knowing what happened.

I'm not going to erase my brain.

You can't erase your brain.

That would be ridiculous.

We would never learn anything if we just.

Everything that bad happened, we just erased.

We'd just do it again.

But what I'm saying is that doesn't mean that you can't get reconciliation in.

Cases where you can.

That's beautiful.

But there are cases, I'm pointing out, that cannot happen this side of heaven.

Only because one side's unwilling.

Right.

Like that's what I'm saying.

See that.

But that's.

But then again, that's pointing.

You just went to my other point.

You're trying to put.

You're trying to tell everyone it's hurt.

You need to work towards reconciliation.

Absolutely.

But if the other person's not changing, then that can't be put on them.

I understand that now.

If you're in a church, which is where these really apply more than it is outside of the church.

Okay, okay.

Outside of faith.

No, seriously, because we're trying to forgiving ourselves.

Christians.

When you say the church, you're talking Christian, I'm talking Christianity.

Those who are followers of Christ.

That's what I keep saying to you.

Followers of Christ.

100% followers of Christ is one thing.

Okay.

But like even, even in those cases, there are some times where people just hurt each other to the point where they really.

It's a scar that just continues to show.

Sure.

You should be still then working if the two people.

If something happens and some things are much easier than others, you know, this person talked a little trash.

Hurt somebody's feelings.

Okay.

If both people.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

You know, it's a.

Working together towards that goal.

Amazing when that can happen.

But sometimes that's not how that works.

To look at a Christian who's been hurt and say, well, you need to work towards reconciliation is asking them to do something that can be impossible if all you're telling them to do is go back in and get hurt again.

I'm not asking anyone to rely on their own strength to do any of that either.

So even I understand.

Look, I get what you're saying.

I hundred percent understand what you are saying.

And it comes from a place of having been hurt.

And it's not just you.

It's most People.

It's most people I've been hurt, right?

Like, okay, so if any of you listening out there are involved in what I'm getting ready to talk about, I'm not going to mention any names, but just know that we've reconciled and I love you.

Anyways.

So, like, I had a situation when I was a youth pastor here, right, where I had somebody who we were tight as can be, right, Accuse me of raising my fist at her daughter, right?

Saw the video, didn't renounce it.

Whenever it was clear that I wasn't doing that and there was that separation, right?

That was a massive rift that split in between us.

But now I have zero problem because we reconciled.

We go out to lunch, we can do.

I trust her.

It's beautiful that that happened for you in that situation.

But that's not every situation.

That's not every hurt, but that is the goal of every.

That should be the goal of every hurt is to reconcile to a point where you're okay again, because our God is bigger than natural healing.

Our God is bigger than everything.

We're talking scars, right?

Not all hurts that are massive.

Massive wounds cause scarring forever.

Some scarring heals.

Well, we serve a God and this is.

We're talking within Christians, right?

So the very basis of all that we do is that God is in charge and in control of what we're doing, right?

He's supposed to be.

That is what we claim as Christians.

If you claim to be a Christian, you are claiming that you are following God and that he is active in your life, right?

Whether that's a quiet active or working behind the scenes active or blatant, he's working in your life.

So I'm saying that we serve a God who's big enough that that should be.

Our main goal, is to reconcile.

I'm not saying it's gonna happen every time, but what I'm.

The whole accusation in the very beginning was that 99% of the time that's not even in our brains.

When we go to even, like forgive our natural.

And especially in the climate that we're in, even forgiving, just trying to work towards forgiveness is hard.

And then you have releasing, which is even harder.

And then you have.

I mean, if possible.

But that's.

Dude, that requires a lot more.

That's the goal.

Every time is what you said.

Every time is not always possible.

I didn't say it was, but it should be the goal every time.

You should come at it with that every time.

There are people that if you said that to in their hurt.

They would look at you like, you're the absolute craziest person.

100%.

I know.

I'm sure there's a lot of people really mad at me right now.

I know you are a little bit, like, upset at me right now for this.

It's more the fact that I am empathetic for those who have been hurt in situations like that.

And I know where they can be in your heart.

I get it.

You know, there was something that I recently worked through that way, you know, where I felt an incredible amount of pain at work from something that happened.

And it was.

It was enough to where it really clouded a lot.

And thank God, Thank God that in the midst of it, he showed up for me and was encouraging me.

And it took a long time to start the healing process and get myself into a place where I can continue, just continue anything, let alone ministry.

But that being said, I realized recently that not only have I been able to forgive, but I've been able to let go.

That was where I was at, is that I've let go of it.

And that was an amazing thing to realize because I looked around and I saw what God has done since then.

Something that I prayed he could fix at one point.

I'm glad he didn't.

I'm glad he didn't.

I'm glad I went through what I went through there.

I'm glad because I learned a lot from it.

I'm glad because the whole experience from start to the end taught me so much.

I can take it with me and use it.

I'm so blessed to be doing what I'm doing now in the place where I'm at now.

And none of it would have happened if this other thing didn't happen.

When you can realize that God is working even in the worst of things, those worst of things can be let go.

But I'm not going to go marching back into there.

I think that's nuts.

But you're acting as though reconciliation is like, okay, so I'm going to say something that's going to make a lot of people mad and just know that my heart is not meaning what you think it means when I say this.

Okay?

Whenever a couple who is married has a situation in which they determine they think divorce is the right option, a scripture says it's not.

Jesus himself says, yeah, it was.

Because you people, right?

To the.

To the Israelites, to the.

To the.

To the Jews, right?

You people begged for God to give, you know, Moses a way out of.

Of it in the one situation.

Right.

So that's never God's desire ever for divorce.

I understand what some of you are probably thinking.

That's.

I'm not saying that it's not the option that ends up being the option.

I'm not saying that.

Right.

I get it.

But the goal should be reconciliation.

That should be it.

The goal should be that you fix the problem and divorce shouldn't be the option that is on your mind.

Now, obviously there's some cases where it's dangerous.

I'm not saying that women or men, because men can be in the situation too, that is that your life is in danger for staying.

Please don't hear that, because that is not what I'm saying.

But what I am saying is the goal should be that you work towards reconciliation.

I will sit here and tell you there is no situation that my wife can put me in that I will ever say divorce is gonna be my option.

Okay.

So like, that means that it takes me dying to self to sacrifice everything to figure out how to reconcile the situation.

Whether that means, okay, we, we've.

We live in different houses for a while.

And I'm constantly on my knees praying for her and praying for myself and for reconciliation in the process.

Sure.

I'm not saying that it always ends like a happy fairy tale ending.

I'm not saying that.

That's never been what I've been saying.

And I feel like that's what you are hearing from me is that our goal being reconciliation means that it has to end perfect and then it has to end exactly where it started.

Like, that's not what reconciliation is.

Even because you go through things, life happens like it.

That's.

We wouldn't be told to reconcile with people with God knowing that situations are going to happen.

There's.

There's problems that occur and consequences happen from it.

So reconciliation doesn't mean that every time you get to put it all back together exactly how it should be.

That's not what reconciliation is.

And so like, what I'm saying is most people go into a conflict between another human being or any of the relationships God, the world and ourselves with.

I want to forgive and just release it.

And not that that's a bad thing, but I'm saying that it needs to end.

Well, you have to have in your heart that position of if that person came back and wanted to be friends.

Like, I will love them in cases where that's possible.

There are some things though that outside of God intervening himself, some things can't be put back together.

Well, then you should be praying day and night that God intervenes.

That's what I'm saying.

As Christians, that's what we're supposed to be doing.

Faith in the mustard seed.

It is never his will for relationships to be destroyed.

That is never his will.

Of course it's not.

But this is a broken world full of broken people that break each other, man, 100%.

But God is big.

Oh, our God is big.

And all our faith needs to be is this big.

Right.

It needs to be little bitty God intervening in situations.

He can do anything.

I'm not saying that he can't, but I'm saying when it comes to us and what we're able to do, you know, there are marriages that can be fixed because they're not.

What's broken in them isn't something that is dangerous, number one, or completely just earth shattering.

There are some marriages I've seen where somebody cheats and they're able to work through it.

I think it's fantastic and amazing.

When I see it, then I've seen ones where that trust being broken, it just doesn't get put back together again.

It doesn't.

And they can be fine once they're not with each other.

Well, that was a decision on both ends then.

That's what I'm saying.

But the reconciliation there is one of not being of hatred.

It's about moving on.

Okay.

I think that at the very least, we've made the point of it's hard.

Oh, it is hard to love people.

So what I wanted to say about when it comes to forgiveness, because that's where this came from, by the way, is asking how to forgive those.

You know that's what it said, right?

No, I believe it did.

No, said how to forgive those that hurt you deeply.

Forgive.

That's the second part of this.

I was still on the first part I'd have loved.

The unlovely would have been someone that's just kind of rode and rough around the edges or whatever.

Right.

I was just.

We were defining love.

I mean, that was.

We got kind of off the rails completely on all that.

We started combining everything together.

I'm talking about.

Well, I hadn't even looked at the second part yet.

When it comes to forgiving, loving those that are unlovely, people who you believe are doing evil in this world.

I want.

I would say this because I feel like I'm gotten completely overreacted.

There's some things I wanted to say about this.

First thing I'll say is whether you believe somebody's Doing wrong things, evil things, or that they have the wrong perspectives or say the wrong things or whatever it is.

I want you to understand that that person is still loved by God, 100% loved by God.

And what driving what's going on with them?

We can't necessarily know.

There could be forces behind them, evil forces at that.

We're, you know, we're looking at doing possibly a whole series on spiritual warfare and a lot of the different parts of it, and I look forward to that and we'll be able to talk about that more.

But sometimes there are forces behind decisions being made and we don't know how someone got to the point where they're at and what drove them there.

But God still loves them.

And to know that we can love the person, not necessarily the things that they do.

You've heard the love the person, hate the sin, right?

We got to know that the person is still beloved.

They're still in the image of God.

We pray for that person to be able to embrace God and to become more like him, just as we try to do the same things.

You know, loving for someone who is unlovely starts with recognizing that you are no greater than them and they are no lesser than you.

And that ultimately we are all on the same level of needing Jesus.

And so that.

And that God loves all of us equally and offers Jesus sacrifice to all of us.

That, I think, is the starting step to that.

When it comes to forgiving those that hurt you, I would speak from my experience is to know that sometimes the hurt when it's happening, you know, the hurt as you're living in it, it's hard to see how to do this.

And that is, no one on this planet should be unable to understand that.

It is hard when you're in the midst of the hurt to see how to get to the other side.

That's reasonable.

However, God is always at work.

And one of the things that I learned is that with time, as God continues to move you forward, there are situations that although they seemed like the hardest things at the time, God can take them and show you that it is okay that it happened.

There's a song by Garth Brooks, right?

He thanks God for unanswered prayers.

That song is so true.

There's things that we pray for sometimes that we think that we need right there and right now and we don't get them.

And we feel like we're hurt.

We feel like maybe we're abandoned or God's not listening or whatever it is because our prayer didn't get answered the way we wanted to at that time.

But if you're willing to stay faithful and keep following him, he's going to lead you to a place where you can see that although that didn't happen, it was for the best.

Sometimes we ask him for what we think we need, and God will ultimately give us what we do.

The Israelites thought they needed a general to beat Rome and to put them back on top of the world.

And God said, what you need is to beat sin and accept that I can do that for you.

And ultimately God's kingdom will overtake the world.

He sometimes doesn't give us what we want, but he'll give us what we need.

If we can have faith in that, then eventually we get to a place where maybe, like myself, you can not only forgive what happened because you realize that it's okay, but you can release it and even celebrate some of the hardest things in your life because maybe God's led you to something better.

You know, for some of us, we have a past, a history, a testimony of things that we've done.

Maybe we've hurt.

Maybe we've hurt other people.

But when you find yourself in a church and you can feel God in the air, His Holy Spirit connecting us all, when you can feel that kind of love, then that is just part of the journey that got you there, which is a strange thing to learn to accept.

We tend to beat ourselves up with everything.

Not just what happened to us, but what we've done too.

And when we can learn to release that because it was just part of our journey.

And some journeys suck.

Some journeys are really, really bad.

And I get that.

And God gets that too.

He went through a pretty bad journey himself when he came down here in the flesh.

But when you know that the plan is still in place and that eternity is still waiting for us, and ultimately we won't be hurt anymore, we keep moving towards that goal, and it's easier to release, Release all those things that we were holding onto.

Like I said earlier, one of the things that I learned, every time I'm able to forgive a little deeper and release a little more, I start to learn how much of that has been weighing on me and holding me back.

Not just from following Christ, deeper and more fuller, but it's like a poison, as I said, to the soul.

And sometimes we don't realize that the only one being poisoned is us.

People hurt us and they move on with their lives.

They don't even think about it, but we do.

There are people that Live rent free in our hearts and in our minds, and we're not even part of theirs.

And what it takes to get to a good place is to learn how to get them out and release them back into the world.

You can forgive them, you can pray for them.

Pray that they can see what you see, especially when it comes to Jesus.

Pray that they can, if they are holding onto it, learn to forgive too.

Forgive themselves as well as forgive you for anything that you might have done.

And that's hard when it comes to what we can do.

Reconciliation wise in this world, that's one of the greatest steps we can take, is learning how to let go.

Some people aren't meant to walk with us right now, and we'll have an eternity to make up for it.

I will let you hold that view all day long.

I will.

I know, absolutely.

I don't think that anything that you're talking about is not a part of reconciliation.

I will say that the process to get there, I definitely think that all of that is part of the process.

But I do think that end step is missing in what you're talking about.

And I mean, we will agree to disagree on it.

But I think for that second thing, you can pray angry.

Oh, yeah, you can.

And sometimes you can even pray angry at God.

He's got big shoulders.

He can handle it.

Been there, done that, screamed at him.

He's.

He's also excited that you're coming to Him.

But when, when you do, when you do that, just know that when God is sternly talked to, he will sometimes in kind, show you that he can also sternly talk back.

Not always.

He gives everybody what they need.

I know that the listener that wrote this sometimes needs that stern love.

And so to you, I say, go ahead, talk to God sternly, because you may need to just know that he's going to respond in kind, probably because of just knowing your personality and what you've said you need even.

But I would say that, like, one of the first things I like to say to people who feel like they're under attack, especially from other church members or whatever, is welcome to the ministry.

That's my favorite phrase, because it's like, okay, now you're in it.

You're now in the thick of it.

Because ministry is God helping people traverse the chaos of people, right?

And so I want to say, welcome to the ministry.

Apparently, if somebody in the church is attacking you and you haven't done anything wrong, which is the example of Job, I love his story.

In the midst of some of this, because it just shows that doesn't mean you've done something wrong.

When bad things happen, it doesn't mean that you've done anything wrong.

And nobody argued with that.

God didn't argue that Job did something wrong.

Like, and that's why all the things were happening.

So, like, it doesn't mean that you did something wrong first off.

But also, like, know that if you're being attacked, it's probably because the devil is nervous about what you're getting ready.

To do in some cases.

That is so true.

So much.

And so also, let me say you're not alone.

It's ramping up.

There's great things getting ready to happen at the very least in this church, but from what I hear, all over the nation and hopefully the world, but there's great things getting ready to happen.

And so you're not alone.

We've all kind of been under attack at times and recent times.

So what I would say is talk to God, get it out, whatever it is, and then start praying for the person because you know God loves them and that's how you combat against somebody who's attacking you in the church.

Also doing what you did here, we've got your back.

We don't know who this person is, right?

I have no idea.

So we can't.

We're not here to slander them, but we are here to pray for them.

Right.

And to pray for you.

And so having your brothers and sisters come around you in prayer and guidance is a huge step of that fight back in that spiritual warfare that we are going to be talking about here real soon.

I think this is a great, actually setup for what spiritual warfare looks like and the why we need to talk about it.

So I don't know.

That's my thoughts on it.

Like I said, I don't disagree with what you said.

I just think that our goal should be a step further.

Even if we can't reach that goal.

Right?

Even if we can't reach that goal, that should be the goal.

So work towards it.

We're also not perfect, right?

I'm not saying that you are less of a person if that's not your goal.

I'm saying that maybe if that's not your initial goal, end goal, I mean, there's obviously steps in between.

If that's not your initial end goal, maybe there's something to work on.

Maybe there's something you need to work on and aim for at some point.

You know, also personal conviction.

I don't know that this is a personal conviction.

But God works on each individual and the things that they need worked on at different times.

Right.

So maybe this isn't the time that you need to work on that yet, but if you're not there eventually you're gonna need to start working on it and God will let you know when that is.

So I'm firm believer that we are all a mess, that Christians are just a big mess.

But we have somebody who is teaching us how to clean.

We can only clean up one room at a time by one thing at a time.

God will show us which thing is time to clean up next.

That's my take on, on really our.

When we're sinning, if it's not something that's a no brainer and that we can just stop doing.

Sometimes it just takes.

Takes time and time because God's patient and he's willing to work with us as long as we're willing to work with Him.

Yeah.

I would say also when it comes to, if you feel like you're being under attack, I mean, if you want to do a heart check, say, hey, where am I in this?

Go for it, do it.

Talk to God.

Be willing to listen to what he has to say, even if it's something you don't want to hear, hey, you might have done this.

They might have.

In some cases we want to try to put ourselves in the other person's shoes and try to figure out where they might be coming from if there is something that we can help them with.

Praying for them, Praying for yourself, for protection.

Especially for when you need to be patient and not letting your emotions draw a lot of your reactions.

It's hard, it's hard to stand trying to be loving when someone isn't bringing that to you.

And so keep surrounding yourself with people who can support you and emotionally.

Do not gossip.

Do not accept that.

Do not accept people coming to you in gossip.

Do not accept gossip coming from your mouths.

In fact, go as far as shutting it down.

Yeah.

Just which may take you stepping out, but shut it down.

Yeah.

In some cases where communication between the person and that you feel is doing that and you can happen, it's worth doing.

It's the least amount of gossip that can happen when you go straight to the source.

Right.

So in cases where that can be done, that needs to be done.

In cases where there can't be because it's just a very volatile situation.

Once again, continue in prayer.

Have God guide you through.

Yeah, it's difficult.

Sometimes you're right.

Sometimes it's because God's got something amazing for you and the devil is going to try to slow you down sometimes.

It's because I've seen it where you've done something.

God has worked through you and now the devil is scared and he's going to try to keep you from doing it again.

Either situation.

When these things happen, just continue to find ways to put on that full armor of God.

Read Ephesians, armor yourself.

We're going to go through that as we go through our series.

I think hopefully we can really bring a lot to that.

But you're going to work on just making sure that you're in the right place, heart wise and head wise for the situation so that we don't want to add to it.

For every situation I've taught my kids, you can walk into it with a blue bucket or a red bucket.

Blue buckets like water to a fire.

Red bucket's like gasoline.

If you allow your emotions and your anger and your pride broken and all that stuff to affect how you go into a situation, it's like putting fire, gasoline on a fire.

Or you can be the one that tries to help cool it down and make peace.

Well, you know, my perspective on that is in both cases the fire stops eventually.

Yeah.

But it can engulf people into it.

Consequences are different.

But yeah, no, that's good.

That's good for sure.

Yeah.

Love is not an easy thing.

It's not a simple thing.

It's not what media has made it out to be.

It's not any of that.

It's tough.

It's tough to love people, especially with the way that God asks us to love people.

It's not an easy thing.

So know that you're not alone in, in the struggle.

Right.

Like of, of it being hard to love the unlovely and you know, sometimes just praying for that person is the most loving thing you can do at the time.

Right.

Like sometimes that's all you can do.

So, but start there, right?

Like, and God will grow you past it.

I firmly believe that God will grow you, grow you past the differences that you might have with a brother or sister in Christ.

It's a lot clearer with people outside the church, you know, because it's like, well, they just don't get it, you know.

Yeah, they don't understand.

They don't have the Holy Spirit prompting them to do this or that.

And yeah, it says that it's written on our hearts.

But at the same time it's like they are willfully choosing against it.

But with a brother or sister, I Firmly believe that God will clearly walk you through it, the next.

Next step that you need to take.

So I don't know.

That's what I got.

Sounds good.

Cool.

Hopefully we.

Hopefully we entertained you.

Very least, if nothing else, we don't.

Always yell at each other.

Hopefully we didn't create any.

Any confusion.

We'll say that, but I don't think we were saying against each other.

I don't.

I think it's just a.

Well, wait to see.

Let's get some comments on this episode.

Right in with your thoughts, just like we got from last week's episode.

Prepare yourselves as we get ready for our Spiritual Warfare series.

It's gonna take some time to get.

Through, but two to three months if we do the whole list of what I'd say it depends on how we.

Stretch it, you know, but, like, yeah, I mean, it's.

I think it would be good.

I think it's gonna be good.

I really want to take our time and talk about each piece of the armor.

Most people don't do that.

Most people don't take their time to do that.

So I think it'll be good.

I mean, there's some overlap there, but.

Yeah, sure.

But it'll be good to see the correlations.

Yeah, it's gonna be good.

So, yeah, don't forget about the challenge.

Totally on.

We're looking for 100 and 100.

100 subscriptions on YouTube and 100 listens in the first 24 hours on everything else is our goal.

By episode.

By the end of the year.

End of the year.

By the end of the year.

End of the year.

Yeah.

Because then we'll be gearing up for 250.

Yep.

Right?

Yep.

250 will happen February or March of next year.

Bam.

This is gonna happen.

It's gonna be awesome.

And we want everybody to be a part of it.

And we got some cool ideas, but we needed the challenge to be fulfilled.

Let's get it done.

Tell your friends.

Actually, it was kind of neat.

Not only do we get some comments, but there's actually been more people stopping me in the halls and talking to me about the podcast, which I really appreciate for all those of you that do, and you know who you are, I love you so much, and we are so grateful that you are not only listening, but that you're interacting with us in any capacity.

We love knowing that you cared about what we're doing here and that it might even be helping or encouraging or whatever.

Yeah, we love it.

Love it.

Ignore me.

He's got A fidget.

I fidgeted.

Now I was looking for something, but it's gone.

So.

Yeah, you know, I think, I think it's time to work on getting something that we can give away.

We should give away something.

We should give away something.

We should give away something.

Send in what.

What do you think we should give away?

I don't know.

I mean, it's easy.

We could do a T shirt.

T shirt would be easy.

If that's something that you guys want.

Have T shirts.

What can we do?

Well, let's have them.

Let's have them suggest it.

Some ideas.

Yeah, yeah, this could be fun.

See if we can do something fun.

Yeah.

What, what do you guys, what would you guys like to see us give away?

I mean, we could do something from as, as simple as a T shirt or something.

A hat or something which we.

I've not made any hats yet.

Yeah, or as complex as, I don't know, piece of art.

I mean, you paint?

I do laser engravings.

I do.

So we could, we could do something with the truth response of some sort there.

I have some paintings.

We could, we could, we could do a painting giveaway.

Yeah, we could take a picture of the two of us and autograph it.

Nobody would want that.

But it's okay.

We'll be signing autographs at 250.

No, there's that.

There's an idea.

Let's.

Let's shoot for something.

Let's figure something out.

That'd be fun.

We need to figure out.

Be fun.

You know what I'd love to get, I'd love to grow to the point where we can give away like really big things.

Like, I love the people that.

Like a car.

Give away cars.

Yeah, that would be amazing to like work a deal out.

Or we'll give out cars.

We got it.

We're gonna have to grow a pretty big viewing and listening audience in order to do that.

But if we can get there, I will be all about that.

I will promote it like crazy.

Also, like, if you're hearing, hearing us right now, if you're listening and you are a business owner, holler at us.

We'll shout out to you.

I like shouting out.

Yeah.

Oh, and especially we'll give away your stuff if you send us something.

Actually.

Yeah.

Or we'll wear your stuff.

Even like he likes it.

I like to wear stuff.

Especially if it's God related.

We can hang it up.

I don't mind throwing some stuff out, but yeah, if you got something that'd be a good way.

If it's Service discount, whatever it is.

We can do that too.

If you make pajamas.

He'll wear pajamas in here on the podcast sometime.

Pajamas?

Yeah.

Footy ones?

Yeah, like onesies.

He'll wear a onesie.

Maybe I would.

Maybe I would.

I also love hats.

We love hats.

We love hats.

Mine keep disappearing.

I don't know what you do.

I'm down to one.

I don't know what happens to all my.

I think my daughter is what happens to all my hats.

But probably there was something else I was gonna say to you guys.

Oh, there's a rumor that there's a rabbit hole gonna be happening real soon.

Oh, yeah, I am gonna try.

I'm gonna try.

I don't know if I'll be able to get there.

Well, I may try to convince it to be a two parter.

Maybe.

Maybe two of them in one night.

That might be kind of crazy.

Well, it depends.

I'm now doing double duty that day.

Oh, I'll tell you about it.

Two duties.

Yeah, that's normal for me.

And then, so rumor of a rabbit hole coming.

And I don't know what's going on with the men's and women's podcast because I relinquished a little bit of that control for planning to the women and the.

And the man running it.

And there's been crazy stuff going on.

People.

People's relatives are dying and there's holidays and so I don't know.

I'm not going to make excuses for anybody except for myself, basically.

It.

Yeah.

So for those of you who signed up just to get the men's and women's podcast on Patreon, I'm sorry, If you really feel the need to.

To leave, that's fine.

I get it.

But hopefully you came for us.

Yeah, hopefully you're just supporting us, but.

Mainly to hear us, Becker.

Yeah, that was.

It's good.

It hasn't happened in a while, so.

And we needed it, so there's that.

I just want to be transparent with everybody with that.

And if you got any suggestions about anything that we're doing or thoughts or even how we can expand, whatever that is, have an interest in doing stuff with us, let us know.

You can find us on social medias.

Let's see, we got Facebook and Instagram.

You can email us atthetruth responsemail.com.

if you've got my number, you can just text me.

Yep.

Don't call me because I don't like phone calls.

We can sit down and talk.

We can go out to coffee, whatever that looks like.

Let's just, you know, whatever.

I'm open.

I'm game.

So if you've got thoughts and suggestions for things that to grow us, I am.

So lots of information at the end there.

Probably you stop.

You know, you tuned out probably 10 minutes ago.

So we love you.

Thanks for joining us and God bless.

Hey, thanks for joining us.

Make sure to subscribe and give us a like on itunes and Spotify so that you will never miss the show.

And while you're at it, check out our Facebook and Instagram pages and make sure you tell your friends about this show.

You don't want them to miss out on the truth because we are all about the truth here.

Thanks for joining us this week and God bless.