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0:00:05.3 Vickie Brett: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vickie Brett.

0:00:08.9 Amanda Selogie: I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:19.3 Vickie Brett: Each week, we're going to explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:25.4 Amanda Selogie: And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

0:00:33.2 Vickie Brett: Welcome back, listeners.

0:00:34.9 Amanda Selogie: Hi, friends.

0:00:35.9 Vickie Brett: A very highly anticipated. We've gotten a lot of feedback about Dr. Bolton's episode from the end of last year, and we had already scheduled that part two with him as soon as we recorded that one. So we are so excited to have you back, Dr. Bolton. We've gotten such positive feedback, and I really think it is that kind of shift in perspective that people are feeling, but they just did not know how to articulate. And I think you did a really great job of kind of explaining that a delay in executive functioning is not this lack of grit, for lack of a better term, and it really is a behavior and a form of communication, but now you're punishing it, and then we're seeing that backfire. So I think that really resonated with a lot of individuals, and we are just so excited to kind of have you back and kind of really go into the nitty-gritty of it all.

0:01:33.6 Dr. Bolton: Sounds great. I'm so glad to be back. I really enjoyed our conversation last time, and I'm excited to be thought partners again today.

0:01:41.1 Vickie Brett: Yeah, absolutely. And Amanda and I were just talking briefly before you came on about just the first kind of two weeks of the school year, first three weeks of this semester, I should say, of this new year. And we are seeing a really... It's really obvious shift of all of a sudden, "The child was okay, and we're doing it." And now it's like, "Oh, your child is different. Your child is defiant." And so is it something... Is there a point? I would imagine sometimes with teachers where it's just like, "Oh my gosh, we're back. I'm going to be dealing with these same kids." And then there's just kind of, they're not supported, maybe. Do you think that it's just the kind of beginning of the year? We just had winter break. That's the thing we always get. "Oh, well, the transition back from the break is hard," but I feel like if the child is really supported in the classroom appropriately, we don't have that. We don't have this kind of increase, maybe just the first day or so, okay, getting back into the routine. But I find more often than not, the child has gotten a break from whatever is happening, and then when they come back, then they're a bit more outward. Maybe they're a bit more comfortable to kind of show their true behaviors. Is that something that you kind of find with students when you're working with them or trying to shift the perspective of teachers from, "Hey, this isn't defiant," that, "This is telling you something, and let's break it down."?

0:03:11.8 Dr. Bolton: Yeah, no, I think it's an interesting thing. I think there's rhythms to the school year. And one of the things I love about working in a school is there's a beginning and an ending. And there's a lot of positive energy starting any school year. Everybody's starting with a fresh, clean slate in a lot of ways. And we come in with a lot of energy. And the Gallup poll found that the most stressful job in America right now is K-12 teachers.

0:03:42.7 Vickie Brett: I believe it. Yeah.

0:03:44.5 Dr. Bolton: When I take a look at K-12 teachers are the most stressed profession, we've got kids, there's an unprecedented mental health epidemic happening, and the Surgeon General had a warning about parental stress. So all of the stakeholders in the system are overly stressed. So that's one piece. So you start with all this hope, but it's a stressful job. It's stressful for kids. It's stressful for teachers. And I think there can be a little bit of, for lack of a better word, a hangover after, I think you can come back from two weeks off or most in the Midwest, we have two weeks off anyways, and you come back from that, and it's hard to get back into a rhythm 'cause it is really hard work.

0:04:27.4 Amanda Selogie: Especially if there wasn't really a good rhythm to begin with.

0:04:31.8 Dr. Bolton: Exactly.

0:04:33.3 Amanda Selogie: You left the semester with a lot of chaos. And especially at the end of a semester, whether your semester ends before winter break or after, there's this buildup, these expectations are so high. Whether there is a final exam or an essay, or for younger kids, it's just end of the semester, the expectations are, "Hey, you should have learned all this this semester." And then if there's not a system in place, it can become so overwhelming for kiddos. And then you are expected to come back and like, the idea of a clean slate is great, coming back from winter break, but if that slate was so dirty to begin with, how clean is it really?

0:05:12.2 Dr. Bolton: Well, and I think that this is the stretch, I think like Martin Luther King's birthday, Martin Luther King Day to spring break is a long stretch for people. And you know each other well enough, and you can feel discouraged if you're a student and discouraged if you're a teacher about whether things are how successful you've been or... And the other thing that keeps coming to mind as we talk about this is that they took a look at... So for teachers, it's the most stressed profession in America. When you take a look at, there's a graph of emergency room visits by week for children, five through 17. It's from 2019. And it completely parallels the school calendar. So if you take a look at the... And it starts with the week ending January 5th and it's negligible. The number of emergency, mental health emergency room visits. It's negligible. And then once second semester begins, it climbs. It peaks at May 11th. And May 11th, of course, is about, is finals week. And then it plummets in the summer, and it skyrockets starting in August. And then even having three weeks or so off for Thanksgiving, you see it plummet again and then it skyrockets before break and then plummets the first week of break.

0:05:48.4 Dr. Bolton: Suicide. Kids are two times more likely to die by suicide in the school year versus the summer. So what we've got to understand is that this is... We have created a really, really stressful environment for kids and for staff. There's a teacher shortage for a reason, and there are 40% fewer teachers entering the profession now than in 2010. And so I think that we've got to take a look at this and we've got a system that is stressing everybody out.

0:07:11.8 Dr. Bolton: And of course, when we're stressed, we can't bring our best selves. When we're stressed and we go into lower brain, we lose some really important things. We lose empathy. So when we get upset that teachers don't have more empathy with kids, what we need to take a look at is their level of stress 'cause they chose the profession because they care deeply about kids. And so then the question would be, how is their life so stressful that they can't access that empathy? We aren't as creative, we aren't as flexible. All of these things under stress get compromised for students and for staff. And so, and then we wonder why this is. And so, and at the very root of this, I think, is, is this over involvement, over focus on test scores.

0:07:58.5 Vickie Brett: Yes. Absolutely.

0:08:01.7 Dr. Bolton: And there's a... And I think if we take a look at a lot of things from... A lot of the challenges began at the turn of the century. And what happened then, it was No Child Left Behind, which really what it did was it said we're gonna reward and punish schools based on test scores. And I think it was well-meaning, don't get me wrong. But I think that when we focus on test scores, there's a law called Goodhart's Law that says, "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure."

0:08:30.8 Amanda Selogie: Yeah.

0:08:31.4 Vickie Brett: Really?

0:08:32.0 Dr. Bolton: And so, yes. So when we focus on test scores, then what happens is we say, "Okay, we've got to teach bell to bell. We've got to hit all these learning targets. We've got to do this. We got to do this. And if we fall behind that my my scores are... My identity as a teacher is based on test scores."

0:08:50.5 Vickie Brett: Yes.

0:08:51.5 Dr. Bolton: And then what happens is we lose the connective tissue of learning. We lose the connective tissue of community, which is a sense of belonging.

0:08:57.0 Vickie Brett: And connection. Yeah.

0:08:58.0 Dr. Bolton: Exactly. Learning has always been social, but when we teach bell to bell, we take that away. In order to access our best brains, we need to be emotionally regulated and we need to be connected in relationship. That's well-documented. And those are the two things that get lost when we try and teach bell to bell. And for teachers, they lose it because all of their work is teaching bell to bell, three to five-minute break. Teach bell to bell, three to five-minute break. Then we create systems where everybody's dysregulated and nobody can access their best thinking.

0:09:34.3 Amanda Selogie: Well, it's systems where it's very cookie cutter and it discourages thinking outside the box and being creative with, not just supporting individual students, but also the best teachers that I ever had were ones where they took the material and made it so engaging.

0:09:53.2 Dr. Bolton: Their own.

0:09:53.8 Amanda Selogie: It didn't seem like you were learning. And there's such amazing teachers out there that are so creative and find different ways, and yet that's being so stifled now and rather it's, "Well, no, it's formulaic. You have to teach this way." It's everyone doing the same assignments year after year and there's no creativity in it, which is sad.

0:10:16.6 Dr. Bolton: Amanda, I think that that's such an important point. What ends up happening is teachers become cogs in a big machine instead of creators of their own. Imagine if you guys just had scripts of, you didn't get to choose your guests, and you had scripts of the question, someone told you what questions you had to ask, and this is... And it would just be like, oh, well, that that's so... It's not the same job anymore. And when they take a look at where is the deep learning happening? When they take a look at where's real learning happening? I can't remember the names of the authors of this book, but it was very clear. They went into hundreds of schools throughout the country. And it's happening in elective classes and clubs. And that's because teachers don't have to... In elective classes, you don't have to... You don't have a set curriculum to be able to... You're not needing to teach to the test. You can bring the things you love into this. You can take the time you need to get through whatever curriculum you want. You can be creative. And so that's where the real learning is happening. And we're taking it out of the places where we think that testing should be measured in that way. It's really backwards. And it's distressing to me because a whole generation of kids and teachers are losing engagement. When you take 60, I think only 30% of teachers are described as being engaged.

0:11:43.8 Vickie Brett: Yeah. Like, I mean, you take and the children mirror what's in front of them. And so if you do not have the creativity or kind of being able to be loosey-goosey with some things, and you take play away even from the children, and it's like, "Hey, you got to be seated. Seated. Sit down." And it's like, what?

0:12:03.4 Dr. Bolton: We don't have time for this. We don't have time for this.

0:12:05.7 Vickie Brett: Exactly right. And then you're stressed as a teacher. And oftentimes when we go to IEP meetings, there is something, and I think I'd mentioned this the last time, I've tried to boil it down to two things, just so my brain can try and not villainize the teacher. It's sometimes either ego, where they go, "No, I know how to do this." And then we see the IEP, which looks great on paper, and then it's just not implemented. It is just not implemented in the way that it needs to be implemented. For example, the child needs to take a break. When our child is telling us, "Yeah, I try to take breaks, but the teacher always asks, "Are you sure? Are you sure you need a break right now?" " That's not break when needed. And that's a phrase that anybody could take... That teacher could think that she is correct or he is correct in questioning the child. But for me and my clients, we're like, "That is an absolutely no-go." Like, why would you ever ask, "Do you think you really need it?" That's like saying, "You're fine, don't worry about it." And it's like, "Of course I'm not fine. And you telling me I'm not fine." Or the classic, "Calm down." Like, you can... Don't ever tell a woman to calm down. She's not going to calm down. The old trope. And so I think there is something to the teacher that comes in and goes, "I don't know how I'm going to do this, but I'll try. Like, all the ego is out. And maybe... Whenever I see that, that's for me to be like, "Okay, the rest of the team, how are we going to help implement this." And I think that those teachers, "I'm okay, you never had a child like this in your class," that, thank you. Thank you for letting me know. And then here are some things that parents have come up with a one way, or we'll put you in touch with the speech and language pathologist, or you guys will have consultation. Because what we'll see is the speech never talks to OT. OT never talks to adapted physical education teacher. None of those people are talking to the teacher. And then we come together and then we're learning that the child is literally the same in all the settings, but each of these individuals didn't say anything, maybe because they thought the child was only acting that way with them. And that is so heartbreaking because the point of the team, the IEP team meeting is for all of us to come together and brainstorm as to how to appropriately support this child in whatever setting they are at at school.

0:14:43.4 Dr. Bolton: Yeah. It's interesting, I love the example of the take a break. So after the shooting, the Fourth of July shooting in Highland Park, there was a whole community that was traumatized. And the school district was worried about, what do we do when these kids come back to school? How do we support them? And we had teachers that were at that parade. We had kids, some who were actually victims of the shooting, others who had experienced that, others and just being within a part of a traumatized community, there was collective trauma. And so I was asked to come in and support them. And I know the limits of what I know. And I knew that I couldn't do that on my own. And so I brought in Mary Jo Barrett, who's an expert on trauma. And I know schools, she knows trauma, and we did it together. And the thing that really struck me as I was listening to her and learning from her, she said, "Our lives have a rhythm. And this rhythm in our lives is so important. That lives are constantly contracting and expanding." And when she says, she says, "Contracting is when we rest." It's when at a cellular basis, it goes back to homeostasis where healing can happen. And then our stress response gets triggered. And we fully engage, and then we quiet that nervous system again. And then we engage. We work a full work day and parent and then we sleep. We work a full work week and we have a weekend, that there's a rhythm to this. And she said what happens with trauma is that trauma disrupts the rhythm because our nervous system never gets a break because we're constantly... That's what trauma does. And what I realized is that the way we've structured our kids' lives both in school and outside of school is similar to what's happening to people who've experienced trauma, which is they don't get... We've taken away the rhythm.

0:16:39.0 Dr. Bolton: So when we teach bell to bell, and in middle school, I think I've heard between two and four minutes of break. Teaching bell to bell, you sit down, you learn, you learn, you learn. You have a two-minute break. Sit back down. For teachers and for students, what we know, if we take a look at brain scans, when you don't get a break, the brain continues to be dysregulated. And so we've taken away... And then, now, if the kids come home, they've got to do their homework, then they've got to get to their travel team practice, and then they've got to get to violin lessons, and then of course they've got to get to their therapy 'cause of course they can't handle all of this stress. And then we've got parents who are then having to take three kids to different travel teams. And so we've lost the rhythm in our lives. And it's interesting, the data is really clear that it doesn't have to be a lot. You don't need long breaks, but you do need breaks. You need to be able to catch your breath. And in a recent... They took a look at... Two studies that were fascinating for me. One was they took a look at students who received 30 minutes of recess versus 45 minutes of recess a day. 'Cause one of the things since NCLB, we've eliminated recess. We've eliminated a lot of things that are really good for kids' brains. Music, art, vocational planning. All these things that are really good for kids' brains. We've eliminated them including recess.

0:17:27.9 Dr. Bolton: So what they did was they took a look at kids who had 30 minutes of recess and kids who had 45 minutes of recess. And they took hair samples because in the hair samples you can tell, you can read how much cortisol, how much of this stress hormone is in there. There was a 68% increase in stress hormones in kids' brains when they had... The 30 minutes versus the 45. I guess it would be the 45-minute... The students who got 45 minutes had 67 or 68% less of that hormone. And then they did another study with college students where they took a look at 90-minute lectures, and the choice, they had one group do a 10-minute break in the middle, and they had another one do a short micro break every 10 minutes, which was turn and talk, take a deep breath, stand, stretch, every 10 minutes. And again, it was... I think it was 70 to... They learned 70, 75% more in the micro breaks than they did in just getting the 10-minute break. And so these are ways that we can learn from this. And so what I'm saying when you talk about that child who needs a break, part of it is can we help teachers understand why they need this break. But it's not just that child that needs that break. Some kids are...

0:19:19.2 Amanda Selogie: Probably everyone else in the classroom. And I will say too, the why is so important and that I've had this happen in many teams where I've talked about the difference between a proactive break and a reactive break. Teams are very quick to be like, "Oh, I can see this child's dysregulated. I'm going to offer them a break." What happens is, they're dysregulated a lot and this doesn't help prevent it in the first place. Whereas with kiddos where we've been able to schedule really predictable breaks in advance, especially kiddos who have sensory processing needs, if we can create those opportunities for appropriate breaks before high expectations, especially like academic learning expectations, it makes a world of difference. And I think people don't quite understand. On IEP teams, I'm constantly asking for this and I'm fought with, "Well, we do offer breaks all the time." Okay, but can we be preventative? Can we try to be purposeful with this? We know that a break is going to be appropriate, but if it can reset in the first place, then maybe we can get into a system where these micro breaks are more appropriate. And we're not having a 30 minute meltdown that we're having to regulate the child because they've escalated to the point of needing to be removed from the classroom. Let's try to get ahead of it.

0:20:39.2 Vickie Brett: And I think also the teacher's not believing the child. In my example, I know for a fact, it's like, "I'm not believing you." Even if they know the why. Because when we do explain it and it's like, okay, and you nod along, and then when you're in it, it's like this almost knee jerk reaction, which I get as a parent, it's like, "You just don't want to go to bed." And even if that is true, I'm having some sort of reaction and then I want to double down. And that's what I often see with teachers is even if they know the why, they just continue to miss the mark with this particular child in the way. And I think what I really loved is your use of the word rhythm because I think people conflate routine with rhythm. And so I have another kiddo and it's like, he can do the routine of the classroom, but he, like Amanda had pointed out, is one of my kiddos that needs to have his sensory regulated. He needs to be able to have a body sock or have this. And the structure of the class, even though it is a special day class, it's not geared towards the sensory kiddos. It is really geared to those kiddos that need the SDC setting to go at a slower pace, but it still almost mimics a general education setting where you're not allowed to go and take a sensory break or take a walk or do frog leaps or anything. And you would think that in an SDC class, that's precisely the place because there's less kiddos and hopefully more adults that can keep an eye on things. And so I really like that because I think that people get stuck on, "Well, he can do the routine." And it's like, he can do the routine, but he has to sit in the car with mom, literally for two hours once they get home so that she can help regulate him again because he is so dysregulated from the day and he can hold it together sometimes. And I think that thinking the two are the same is a big mistake. We can grin and bear it, but that doesn't mean that that's the best for us.

0:22:55.5 Dr. Bolton: That's right. There's a couple things that come to mind. The first is Stuart Shanker who said, "Misbehavior is stress behavior." And so when kids are struggling, can we then be curious? Ross Greene said, "Kids do well if they can." And when they can't do well, there's something going on. And so, and let's be curious about why this is so hard for them. The other thing Ross Greene and Stuart Ablon say is, "Doing well is always preferable to not doing well."

0:23:25.4 Vickie Brett: Right.

0:23:25.7 Dr. Bolton: Which is just so easy. But then, so when kids are struggling, how can we understand that differently? And a lot of times people will say, is it a performance deficit or is it a skill deficit? And I hate that question, because there are times when I am really good with my kids, and a problem comes up, and I handle it beautifully. If I am hungry and tired and had a long day of work and the same problem comes up, I lose my cool. I'm not motivated to lose my cool. I'm not trying to lose my cool. It's just, misbehavior is stress behavior. When I misbehave, there's a stress behind it. And so let's not... Do I have the skills? Yes, I've got the skills. But what takes over when we're dysregulated, we can't access the skills. So to me, it's a moot point. This is not a helpful one for me. The other thing that I think is so interesting about regulation is, we tend to think that everybody needs the same thing to regulate. For some kids, it's taking a walk is a great regulator. And there's... We had a kid, and so we thought, okay, everybody gets a movement break. Well, sometimes on those walks, we'd have kids who would run ahead, pound on every classroom door, and become more dysregulated. There are kids who benefit from who their break could be reading their favorite novel. And that quiets the nervous system. Different times of the day, I've got different needs. If I'm tired, I might need a movement break. If I'm hyper, I might need to do more breathing at my desk. So this idea that somehow there's a one size fits all break. And I feel for teachers because you've got a group of kids and each of our regulation strategies is a little bit, it's like fingerprints. It's what dysregulates us, what regulates us is all so very unique. And for teachers to be able to read that and understand, oh, in this moment, this is what they need. In that moment, this is what they need. So, but it does... So helping teachers, giving teachers additional supports, I think, able to help them have these conversations with kids. So to be able to get in front of it.

0:25:42.4 Dr. Bolton: When you've got a classroom of 35 kids and you've got... If you've got 15% of them who are struggling, that's about four kids. So it doesn't mean we've got to do this with all the kids, but with four kids who are going to be in the more disruptive. A lot of kids may be dysregulated, but the four that become disruptive when they're dysregulated, those are the ones that we've got to figure out, okay, what does this look like for them and how can we help teachers and give them the support they need to be able to be curious and to be able to help those kids in those moments as opposed to saying, "Well, they just need a regulation strategy, you need to give them a regulation strategy." I've got to regulate 24 other kids as well. And I'm dysregulated. And I guess that that's like... So that's the other thing, I think, that makes this so hard is really the best regulator for us is other people who are regulated. That's the thing that's going to regulate us the most.

0:26:35.9 Vickie Brett: Exactly. And when there's one teacher in the classroom of 35 and is dysregulated, whether they're aware of it or not, like I said, children mimic and mirror, and some are more sensitive to that than others. And so you'll see them shut down. And others you see kind of amp up. And yeah, maybe there's the few that are just kind of even keeled, but I think you've given me personally a lot of food for thought because I have an upcoming IEP meeting. And it's just like the things that have happened just since we've gotten back. Like, I just really wanted to go, but I'm going to be curious, as to why they decided to lock the door after he took a break. And I know there's going to be some of the, "For the safety of the other children," and things like that, but it's really doing a disservice to this child. And, the parents, rightly so, are so upset and reminding them and giving them time to kind of process what they're finding out has been happening to their child before the IEP meeting that's coming up, I think is really helpful. And that's why we were delighted to have you back, because I think it's going to be a part three, everybody. Because I feel like we could go on and on. And maybe next time we'll... Or beforehand, Amanda and I can actually give you some of our kind of, not necessarily our case files, but kind of a little hypothetical, if you will, of scenarios that we've seen and then really break down. Because I think the strategy that you've given us is the acknowledging that again, that behavior is trying to tell us something. What is it trying to tell us? The breaks, even though you may be providing them, not all are created equally. And I think those two really can be in the hands of the teacher, because I have seen it be done. And I just, yeah, I'd love to pick your brain more about some of our cases. So, Amanda, maybe we'll put together a couple of our cases and then go over strategies with him on a part three.

0:28:46.7 Amanda Selogie: Absolutely.

0:28:47.5 Vickie Brett: And then if you guys, you listeners, you've been really great in giving us positive feedback, but if you have any questions for Dr. Bolton, please, please let us know because, yeah, I'm pretty sure we're going to solidify this. Do you want to leave our listeners with kind of any final thoughts that you have about the rest of this kind of semester and just with a lot of the things that are happening outside of the school walls, particularly with ICE and this current administration, that in it of itself, your baseline is already going to be elevated. Is there anything that you want to leave with the listeners, some who are administrators and teachers that are listening?

0:29:25.2 Dr. Bolton: Yeah, I guess there are a couple of thoughts. The first is, and this came up when you were talking about the child who was locked out. One of the things I've been fascinated by is the power of belonging. And kids who experience belonging, they have many fewer behavior problems, they have higher achievement, their attendance is better, their mental health is better, their physical health is better. It's like, this is key. And so when we lock kids out of spaces, there's nothing more profoundly communicating to them that you don't belong. And so I guess there's the piece of me that says, number one, upstream of just about everything that we're struggling with in schools and with our kids begins with belonging, and that also happens in our homes. The messages of belonging we share in our homes. If we describe our child as being the, "Why can't you be more like your brother or sister?" That's a really an othering kind of message. That's one piece. And then I guess the other piece that always strikes me is Bruce Perry talks... And he's a neuroscientist who's worked with kids experiencing trauma. But this is, again, true for all of us that in order to access our best brains, we need to be connected in relationship and we need to be emotionally regulated. And so for me, as a parent, as an educator, as an administrator, supporting teachers who are stressed, those are the two things that I'd want to make sure of. First, if I want to get the best out of people, how can I let them know that there's a connection here? And how can I stay regulated to help co-regulate them so that they can access their best brains and to see their challenges through the lens of connection and regulation? Everybody's doing their best in a really stressful world. And so whether it be stress from our legal, geopolitical world, whether it be stress with a teacher in a classroom, whether it be stress over homework when kids come home, the micro or the macro stresses, let's figure out how can we stay connected first, how can we stay regulated first? And then we can access our best brains to be able to figure out how do we best address it.

0:31:20.0 Vickie Brett: I was like writing notes out. Yeah, I was like for my meeting, I'm like, thank you so much, Dr. Bolton for your time. And we'll steal away some more time for a part three, listeners, so send those questions over.

0:31:44.9 Dr. Bolton: Looking forward to it. I'm in.

0:31:46.5 Vickie Brett: All right, take care everyone.

0:31:47.9 Amanda Selogie: Bye.

0:31:48.9 Dr. Bolton: Thanks so much. Bye-bye.

0:31:50.0 Amanda Selogie: Bye-bye.

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