Speaker 3: [00:00:00] What was true is that I was actually having sex with someone who was intentionally deceiving and manipulating me in order to extract what they needed for their own gain
Speaker: Welcome to Heartbreak to Wholeness, the podcast helping you heal from the mindfuck of narcissistic relationships and move towards the secure, peaceful woman you want to become. We will explore all of the tools that you need to get through your grief, to move past those I'll be alone forever fears, and rebuild your confidence so you can move forward in healthy relationships as your full self.
Never to get sucked into the narcissistic spell again. I am your host, Bre Wolta, Relationship Clarity Coach and EFT Certified Practitioner. Let's dive in.
Welcome back. I promised you a part two and here it is. This is the continuation of my conversation with Hillary buck, Walter wild. And this conversation is [00:01:00] going to resonate for you. If you've ever said to yourself, I can't leave this relationship because the sex is too good. We are talking about the darker side of sex and how sex is used in narcissistic relationships. To manipulate and control.
This episode may shine some light on some entanglements that you may not be aware of within these narcissistic dynamics. So both Hillary and I have experienced different types of sexual manipulation. And exploitation, and we both share a bit about our stories. In this episode, you.
Will leave better understanding. How narcissistic people. Use sex to.
Maintain control and create emotional dependency.
You will learn about the actual psychological and physiological impact that sex has on us in these abusive relationships and why it's so hard to break free.
And the surprising role that consent plates.
In relationships [00:02:00] where sex is disguised as intimacy. And be sure to stick around to the end of this episode, where Hillary helps me to pick an Oracle card that you can use this week to stay more conscious in your healing.
Speaker 2: And there was another piece of your story that I wanted, I want to touch on. Cause this, this is also similar to my own of how sex was used. In these relationships to, to hook you back in, to validate, to like, what did that look like in your, in your dynamic? Yes.
Speaker 3: So, you know, I, I entered into this relationship thirsty, as you said, before starving would maybe be a better word, um, and starving in a sexual sense too, and so as a woman in midlife, you know, I jumped off of this precipice out of my marriage in this.
comfortable life I'd had for over a decade into this unknown landscape exploring who I was [00:03:00] and who I wanted to be doing my own healing work in the world professionally. And he was so masterful at learning me. And what I was thirsty for, what I was starving from, what my core wounds were. I'm also a sexual abuse and incest survivor, which further complicates this whole, the whole arc of this, this story.
And I had convinced myself that, you know, I've done nothing but healing work, nothing but inner work, nothing but internal work for almost the 20 years. So I thought I had arrived. And he really honed in on that sexual piece. And I've heard this from other survivors as well of how, um, the sex is used as a, as a hook.
And so right out of the gate, it was, he was showing me like sex with Emily on Instagram and her yes, no, [00:04:00] maybe list, and we were going through it. You know, sitting, having a cocktail, like, are you into these things or not? These things are, what might we try? So it felt so novel and exploratory and to be embodied and free.
And especially as a woman in midlife, right. When society wants us to be invisible. So I really exploded into that sexual piece so much so that I started taking my own sex coaching training because I felt like. Everybody needs to know what liberation is possible through understanding sexual energy as life force energy.
This also became a bone of contention in, for his jealousy. He like brought me to the edge of this beautiful place of exploring sex and sexuality and pleasure. But then when I took it upon myself to do a training, Then it was, you need to drop out, I don't want you to do that, [00:05:00] it makes me jealous, you're going to be talking to other men in the program, so on and so forth, but at that point I was still strong enough to say no.
But then I learned all of these tools. In the sex coaching program, which I brought to the relationship and I would tell my friends like the sex is so good. The sex is so good. Like even when things were bad, I would say, you know, things get really bad, but they're so good when they're good. And I know that's a common refrain among survivors too, but I was like, I can't leave.
The sex is so good. And what made it complicated was that there was also like this constant way he was keeping me sedated with alcohol, cannabis, psychedelics at times. I thought we were using them as medicines. I mean, not alcohol, but cannabis and psychedelics, like here's medicines to compliment, sexual experiences, not realizing that I was being sedated to be further extracted from.
So it [00:06:00] became like this loop where he really learned who I was sexually, what I, what I liked, what I needed, and he would hone in on me. He would put his face like right in front of my face and say, I love you, I need you, I want you forever, my future wife, my BFF, my one, you're the love of my life, you're my everything.
And so, to be in a vulnerable, intimate state, like lovemaking, and have someone say that, With cannabis or psilocybin in my system, right? Was like the perfect recipe for absolute nuclear disaster.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 3: And that took up the bulk of our relationship. So the abuse would happen. I would wonder, you know, who he was, how could this be [00:07:00] possible?
Be devastated. Also be worried that. You know, his illness was too much for him and feel so bad for him and he was suffering. And then back into the loop of the lovemaking where I felt seen and chosen and pleasured. And so I could not, it was like being caught in a, in a spider's web. And I had no idea till even months after.
It finally ended that the sex was being used as a piece to manipulate me as well. Like that is, I think, actually where much of the primary extraction
Speaker 2: and
Speaker 3: manipulation was happening.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Extraction is such a powerful word. When we're in the abusive part of the relationship,
the experience of being discarded and devalued and told we're [00:08:00] whatever, we're like being verbally abused in some way. It's taking away all of that connection. It's taking away, it's, it's neglecting us, right? And when you come in with sex, Not only are you getting the like, we're connected on an energetic level, on a you see me emotionally level, right, is what we think sex is, but also on the physical level.
So it adds a whole nother layer to that love bomb phase where it's just like, It's like, this is the, this is the time that I feel like you love me because you are giving your full attention to me. And we confuse that with love. Yes. Because we've been so deprived in the abusive part of the stages that when we get that, it's like, this must be love.
I'm holding on for this piece of the relationship. And everything else doesn't matter. It's almost like we wipe the slate because we got that one, one [00:09:00] evening of being tended to or, or connected in some way.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 2: And, and I don't know if this was your experience, but in my experience, the, The sex started as very much like him wanting to give to me and it being like this very, it was love bombing in itself,
He was a bit more experienced in a lot of different ways than I was coming into that. So it was like, let me show you these things. And then towards the end, it became very objectified and it was, it didn't feel good on some level, I was like, this is not what sex is supposed to feel like, but it still was that only time that we weren't fighting that we, he wasn't giving me the silent treatment, whatever.
So it still was enough to convince me that that was good sex. And I look back , on those sexual experiences after having had healthy sex with my [00:10:00] now partner, and I'm just like, that was not good sex. That was. That was sex that, had a lot of other darkness wrapped within and around it, even from the very beginning.
That, for all the women who were like, I can't leave because the sex is good. There's such better sex waiting for you when you're in a healthy dynamic with someone who makes your body feel safe on every level.
Speaker 3: I look forward to experiencing that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you will. You will. I absolutely believe that that is true for you and possible.
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, what I, what I hear you saying, and what was part of my experience too, is that the sex was actually exploitative. In, in a, in an objectifying sense. Yep. And I can also own that I objectified myself. Oh yeah. And those are some other parts, some parts of me that held wounding around sex and sexuality and embodiment.[00:11:00]
And there certainly a darkness wrapped up in there. And I played a significant role. Mm-Hmm. in, um. The creation of that. We would need a whole other podcast the depths of, of what that was for me and what that looks like. But it did increase in severity. Yeah, throughout the, the course of relationship, the ways in which I would bend and mold myself for his pleasure and also was simultaneously like in this coaching program and leading retreats on sexology for women.
So there were parts of me that were also actively trying to learn how to center my own pleasure. So to have those two things, which is so common in a narcissistically abusive relationship, like these two parallel disparate things sort of running through as a through line the whole time.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Which adds to the mindfuck
Speaker 3: to bring it [00:12:00] totally full circle. Why it's such a mindfuck. Um, something I've been thinking about since we, you know, started Decided to do this podcast about the sexual pieces of a narcissistically abusive relationship is consent.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And something that's really sitting in me is that in a narcissistically abusive relationship, consent is actually removed.
Because I believed I was having sex and offering my body in a vulnerable and intimate way to a person who had my best interests at heart, who loved me. Because this is what I was told over and over and over and over and over again. What was true is that I was actually having sex with someone who was intentionally deceiving and manipulating me in order to extract what they needed for their own gain to my detriment, causing much harm and suffering.[00:13:00]
And that cognitive dissonance is so painful and difficult to process. and metabolize. And it's, I'm curious about like how to explore that idea further that consent is removed because it feels really important and it helps me understand why people use the phrases soul rape and soul murder.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: When describing their experiences of narcissistic abuse.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because even I'm thinking just specifically in the, in the sex realm, since that's where my brain is currently, where it's like, even if we say yes to something that they want us to do, it is a transactional experience because I'm saying yes so that you continue to choose me or so that you're not upset with me or so that I don't have to deal with backlash.[00:14:00]
At least that was my experience where he presented some kinks to me where I did, I did not feel comfortable with. With them, but I did them because the, the alternate option was going to be worse for me of I wasn't going to be seen as the, the girlfriend that he wanted or the cool, easygoing, sexually open, sexually awake, whatever, like I had so much wrapped into my identity through these sexual acts.
It wasn't actual consent. It wasn't like, this feels good to me. I'm saying yes, because it's a, it's a yes for me. It's, it was a yes for him. Which became my yes because it was so wrapped into the web, the, , the dark need for, for that validation or for that experience. Yeah,
Speaker 3: absolutely. And sexual coercion can be so much a part of these kinds of [00:15:00] relationships.
Um, for me, interestingly, like I'm the kinky one. And so I was the one. Kind of up leveling things from his vanilla landscape, but for me it was the emotional piece in sex and lovemaking that felt like where the consent was removed. Because I wanted to believe that he was who he said he was, and that he was choosing me, and he did love me, and he did see me, and he did want me forever.
And so for me it's more like that piece. Where I wouldn't have perhaps offered my body or given consent or been in such intimate, vulnerable, kinky places with him if I had known who he actually was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. We, we might do, let's do a whole nother episode on that. That feels like [00:16:00] a good, a good topic to like really dive into because there are, there's so much nuance there.
And again, so much mindfuck and confusion around how sex plays into it. Um, Yeah, I think we should, if you're open to that, we'll, we'll make that happen . I'm a million percent here for that. Awesome. As, as we come to a close for today, what would be one piece of advice that you have for anybody who is Maybe currently seeing the mask starting to crack or seeing it starting to fall and having to really wrestle with like what, what, who the person is showing themselves to actually be versus what they presented in the beginning or any advice overall for these women who are navigating these situations.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think for those who are maybe starting to see. The mask slip or are asking themselves questions is to find sources of support to find other women who have been through [00:17:00] this or resources, um, that can help reflect back to you, your experiences to help you make sense of what's happening. It can be so challenging in that space where we're physiologically addicted to the cycle of the highs and the lows and the love bombing that.
It's so hard. It can be so hard to see the truth. And because we live in this individualistic society and women are conditioned to be in competition with each other rather than be allies and be in community, there's such power. In finding other women who have been through similar circumstances to be mirrors, to reflect back, to validate, to affirm.
I think that that's one thing that really helped me start to understand my [00:18:00] experiences and to be able to see, and then to be able to start healing my nervous system and my brain and my body from the cumulative effects. And I would also say have patience with yourselves and know that this is a process that you are inside of and it takes its own time and it's highly, highly complex and it just takes patience, And a lot of self love and compassion.
Speaker 2: So beautifully said. The image that always comes to mind for me is like a ball of yarn, and we're, we're trying to untangle all of this stuff, the physical experience, the emotional experience, the spiritual experience, the sexual experience, the financial experience. Like we're just like, there's so much there and that's not going to happen in A session with your therapist, right?
We need to give this some time and also our bodies to catch up, to, [00:19:00] to start to feel safe enough to untangle some of this stuff. So thank you for the reminder of patience. For the end of these episodes, I always pull an Oracle card and I would love your participation. So if you could close your eyes for me.
And you and I will just tune into the energy of the deck and starting to shuffle and we're just asking the universe, asking spirit energy, what is the message that the listeners need to hear today? And Hilary, whenever you feel like this shuffle is complete, you just let me know when to stop.
Hello. So if you're, if you're not watching the video, it is a, um, what is it the thing called that you use to take honey out? It's not a honeycomb. It's a honey, like stick. I don't know. It's, it's a honey stick with honey flowing off of it is what it looks [00:20:00] like. Um, so I'm going to find the message in here.
Listen to Mother Ocean. She has a story to tell you. It's a story of movement, of motion, of flow. Allow yourself to rest in the gentle rise and fall of the tides now, life's natural rhythms. Even if you find yourself lost in the raging sea or swept into the riptide, relax into it. Fighting the tides only puts you at risk of drowning.
Trust the universe is holding you afloat like the sweet gentle waves of the ocean. Notice where you feel stuck. Move your body. Drink water. Soak in a tub. Water is your teacher. Learn from her all you need to know about finding your flow. Expand. Contract. Swirl. Fill. Ripple. Gurgle. Eb. And flow.
Speaker 6: So apt.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Hilary, where can people find you if they want to follow you on social media or just look into your, your other offerings?
Speaker 3: [00:21:00] Sure. I have a website. It's indwellingduluth. com. And on Instagram, it's at sacredcouncil. duluth.
Speaker 2: Awesome. And we're going to link to all of that in the show notes. Thank you again for your willingness to share such vulnerable parts of your story and for choosing to be on the healing journey from such a traumatic experience and really using the Using that to benefit and to, to grow as your own or evolve, I guess, is a better word, continue to evolve in your story and in your life.
Thank you so much for having me, Bre.
Thank you. Thank you listeners for being here and really being present and a part of these hard conversations that I have with a lot of my guests.
I know that today's topic was a little bit dark and how we have described sex as not a tool for connection in these types of relationships, but actually a tool for manipulation and [00:22:00] control. It took so much vulnerability for our guests to speak about their experiences. And I hope that some part of Hillary's story be it from this episode. Or part one resonated with you , and is helping you to feel like you are less alone in your journey, in those dark moments where we think that nobody else has gone through what we're going through. You can always tune into these episodes. And be almost guaranteed that somebody has experienced exactly what you are experiencing.
So to recap this episode.
We talked about sex as a tactic that narcissistic people used in order to manipulate and control. We talked about the physiological and psychological effects that sex has on us. And why that really like consolidates our bond with them and makes it so hard to leave. And we talk about our surprising experience and role that consent plays in these types of relationships. Where sexual [00:23:00] exploitation is disguised has intimacy.
If you haven't listened to part one, I will point you back to the episode right before this one, episode 47. Where Hillary and I talk about the beginning of this relationship and how she started to see the deception and the masks fall off while she was in this relationship. We talk a lot about how she was able to reconcile that deception and why it's so hard for us to come to the question of was this even real. And what that means for our healing. So be sure to listen to part one. You're not going to want to miss the rest of her story.
As always this podcast is for you and you are not alone until next time.