so I want to jump

back to passive house

conversation here.

Why shouldn't we

build a passive house?

now you've stumped me.

I No.

I can't answer that.

Why?

we should all be

building them.

That should be the

minimum standard.

and like literally

everything we're doing

is Passive House.

So I, have some people

who don't necessarily

want to certify.

so the follow on to

this is every house

need to be certified.

if we want to do it right,

then yes, we should.

without certification,

we're losing quality

control and Passive

House, Coming from

Germany is very much about

quality precision, and

so we can't rely on one

person to do everything

perfectly all the time.

We're human, we'll

make mistakes.

So having someone else

look over that and check

it independently of us,

of the team, I think

is incredibly valuable.

so we've done heaps of

passive housework, right?

And still to this day our

passive house modeling

will do all the work on

our design documents and

the certifier will check

it and come back and say,

we need a detail of this,

or you need to change the

way this is connecting,

every job, we still learn,

I love that, I love that

we're learning, that's the

whole idea that we keep

improving, but without

that certification,

mistakes creep through.

I think sometimes

when Hamish and I have

talked about the Not

Every House needs to be

certified, I understand

there's new people coming

into this industry or

this side of building.

And when you're doing

your first 4, 5, 6

projects, yeah, they

should be certified

because you need to learn.

if you were to do a

project that wasn't

certified with Hamish or

myself, the product that

you're going to get at

the end of the day will

be very, very close.

Yeah.

Because we already know

what the expectation

levels that need to

come out of that are.

like, I don't change

my high performance

projects and my passive

house when it comes to

documentation, testing.

We still run a certified

blow it all test.

We still run the

thermal imaging camera.

We still get it

all approved.

We still take photos.

We still get those

same details.

It's just we don't send

it for that third party

independent inspector.

And I think that's

just the difference.

But I think that's the

issue in industry where

There's no one verifying

the work that happens.

You get a frame inspection,

and then you get a final.

And there's so much

shit that happens

in between that,

that is the problem.

I don't think that

we're there yet as an

industry, that we can

rely on all our respective

trades to deliver the

quality that's needed.

Insulation is a perfect

example, you know, and I

know there are inroads now

to improve our insulation

installation requirements

and they're working on

improving that side of

the industry, but you

know, gaps and cracks are

the nemesis of insulation

so if you think about it

on a broad scale, when

we do the mathematics

and the PHPP work.

So, we're applying an

insulation value to a

whole wall assembly, all

the little things that can

happen on a building site

to undermine that are not

being checked or verified

by anybody, you guys.

You're running two or

three jobs at a time.

You can't be across

every detail personally

and you train your teams

up magnificently and

they're all very well

educated, but someone's

only going to turn their

back for a minute and

the details missed.

actually disagree on that.

my team are well trained

and know very, very

well the details that

need to go into it.

And they are so over it.

They're actually real.

And I think the thing

with my team is like,

Last night, two of them

were sending me photos or

videos of one of Hamish's

jobs and Mark's jobs.

And like, this is

how they did this.

This is how they did that.

Like, let's start with

that basis because

we can maybe do this.

Like, they're already

looking to improve on how

other people have done it.

And then what will then

happen is probably Hamish's

team will do the same.

They'll be like, this

is what they did.

We can improve

on it like that.

So I think when you got

a good team, when you got

good people who actually

care about this, those

details don't get missed.

They actually get improved

every single time.

unfortunately or

fortunately for the three

of us, we live in this

little bubble where we

think everyone's doing the

right things and everyone's

building high performance

and passive house and.

They want to recycle

and they want to

be sustainable,

that kind of stuff.

I mean, if you zoom

out like broadly as

an industry, that's

not happening.

what we want to do with

this podcast and the stuff

we're doing with SBA and

all the amazing stuff that,

Australian Passive House

Association are doing is

actually trying to educate

the industry more broadly.

Sven, I'm going to

throw a controversial

question at you.

Is a passive house?

A passive house if

it's not certified.

I want to say no, although

I understand it that

the Institute say yes.

So let's just confirm this

is your personal opinion

for anyone listening, so

no one gets sued here.

institute, I believe

I've read somewhere there

that they say, no, you

don't have to certify to

call it a passive house.

So I feel that passive

house now is a brand and

that that brand is earned

by doing everything and

all the ticks and check

boxes that need to be

done to deliver that.

And that if you don't

follow the process and

deliver the required data

and information, then

you don't get that stamp.

So, my opinion is that

you should be required to

certify to be able to brand

your house a passive house.

so I've got this from a

text message from Lex,

who's the CEO of the

Passive House Institute,

and the definition that

she has here, and I think

it's on the same page.

The Passive House Standard

is a performance standard.

If someone would like

to use the term to

make a claim that their

uncertified project

is performing at this

level, then they need

to be able to prepare

to stand in front of a

judge and show how this

performance claim has been

tested and can be proven.

would mean that you need

a certifier, that's how

you get the certification.

So I think everyone's

on the same page,

especially when it comes

to the way we build the

Australian Passive House.

But compared to the

International Passive House

Association, their wording

is a little bit different.

I also just wanna go on

the record as saying to

all those people out there

who aren't getting their

project certified, don't

hear this and think that we

are discrediting anything

that you do, you are doing.

Because what you are doing

right now is amazing.

0.

1 percent of homes

in Australia.

exactly, so if you don't

get a plaque on the wall,

don't think that we're

poo pooing it, right?

And just what part of

the narrative that we're

trying to do on our

social media now is that

we're calling it a high

performance home, but we're

following these principles.

And the projects

that we're aiming to

get certified, we're

going, we're targeting

certification, but we'll

call it a passive house.

When it's a passive house

and in my opinion that

is honoring the hard

work and dedication of

the entire team and the

clients to actually get

that plaque on the wall.

And that's the

reason I asked you

the questions Fenn.

I don't want people to

think to don't do it if

you can't get a plaque

because just be better.

We've had a chat with

Cam about this because

sometimes there is this

amazing view to the south

that you want to get, but

just make those windows

a bit smaller and just

understand the impact

that that's going to have,

because plaque on the wall,

but there's also how you

feel in your home too.

That's also

really important.

I have a house

that's impossible

to get certified.

of,

Literally, we can't.

It's a retrofit.

We physically can't

even with, I think,

unlimited budget.

We physically can't get

this house certified.

It's in Brunswick.

There is a huge triple

story next door.

It blocks all the

north lighting.

It's got heritage overlays.

It's boundary to

boundary already.

We can't do anything.

I don't think we can even

get it to low energy.

I think we can go close

to the component method.

We still can't go

to component method.

what you're doing

with that project.

You're still going

through that recipe.

You're still going

through the recipe

book and going through

all the ingredients.

You're trying to tick

them off and you're

understanding everything.

You're not just going,

oh, well, fuck that.

We can't hear that.

So who gives a shit?

It's actually

understanding, well,

this wall over here might

have some risks Wolfie,

Wolfie analysis on it.

So let's just see

if there is a risk.

In that wall

assembly there.

So we're still following

the same process, but

the outcome might not

be a pluck on the wall

it starts with modeling

ends with testing.

when I say a model, it

is PHP modeling, not that

hers modeling if you want

to call your project, a

high performance project,

you need to model early

model often design it

around that model and

then test it at the end.

And then that can be

referred to as what I

would say high performance,

because you should still

have all those basic

building principles, which

we hate using the word

principles, but it should

still tick all those

boxes because you've gone

through the modeling stage.

Is that fair?

Or am I probably being

too hard on that word

high performance now?

Because I think that's

another term that, fuck

me, everyone's a high

performance builder now.

And it's like, just

because you put some

solar panels on the roof.

Doesn't mean it's

high performing.

That's a technology.

Yeah, look, I think the

same things happen with

sustainability, you know,

and the greenwashing

that came around with

that, everyone's eco

this and green that, but

ultimately, what have they

really changed in their

practice to deliver that,

I'm going to call

it out right now.

And it's architects

declare because at the time

there was the bushfires,

everyone signed up to

this thing and we're

going to change our power.

We're going to make change.

And I want to know how many

of these people, they've

got 1200 signatories.

How many of them are

actually doing something

rather than making these

claims that we're doing

this, we're doing this.

Like, that is greenwashing

and I'm going to call

it out right now.

And if you're listening

to it and you think

you're one of them, you

probably most likely are.

But you can change.

You can get better.

You once signed up,

it doesn't mean you

can't change now.

if only there was a

group that was born

out of that little

declared movement, that's

actually doing something

And you are.

Sustainable

Builders Alliance.

They're doing something.

They're actively trying

to educate the market.

Where architects declare,

fuck me, just because

you change your power

to be green energy

doesn't change anything

from the homes you're

producing and building.

yeah, when that came

around, I had a look at

it we're already doing

stuff, you know, and I'm

sure what we're doing now

is a lot better than what

we're doing then, but for

me at the time to sign an

agreement or document or a

commitment or whatever you

want to call it, it made no

difference whether I signed

that or not, for me, it

was about, well, let's just

keep pushing boundaries

and doing what we can

do to make things better

and let's just roll on,

don't know if this is a

conversation I had with

you, but technically they

weren't letting you sign

that petition because

you weren't an architect.

Am I right in saying that?

Surely not.

probably, probably.

I mean, it we had some

articles written about

our work and they referred

to us as architects.

And the Institute came

after us legally and said,

you need to now make sure

they change the wording on

those articles because you

Sven are not an architect.

And so even to the

point where I have two

architects that work in

our practice, I can't call

them architects from a

legal perspective, right?

Even though they're

registered and insured and

have their own licenses.

On my website, I

cannot call them an

architect because that's

what's in the act.

I'm not allowed to use any

wording or anything that

refers to architectural.

So my, my degree,

Associate Diploma of

Architectural Drafting,

I'm not allowed to use

the word architectural

legally, right?

It doesn't make

sense to me.

I think it's an antiquated.

Law or act that

needs to be updated.

I don't have any problem

with them protecting

the term and, and

keeping it for those

people that those people

that have done that

degree should be allowed

to use that no matter

where they work and

what they do, because

they've earned the right.

and we're not poo

pooing architects.

Actually

I'm going to go on

record that the good

architects of what they

can produce are unreal.

And the detail that we get,

the conversations that we

have they're the ones that

usually push the envelope

and do some things.

What I'm calling out

here is the fact that,

signing a piece of

paper means jack shit.

But

hold yourself accountable.

And you know what, like,

Hamish and I, you've

probably spoken about it.

I once said I was a

green builder, that I

was sustainable and I did

nothing that was green.

I think the most

sustainable thing I did

was use It's just pine

in my frame, which I

had to use anyway, to be

really honest with you.

So yeah, you start

somewhere and the

information now is there.

It's out there.

You don't have

to look for it.

It's all over your

social media, CPD points.

It's all there.

When we had to find it,

we kind of had to find it.

Now like the information

is just literally,

you can't not see it.

So that's what frustrates

me more than anything

when there's so much

education around this.

and you fail to acknowledge

it and then you don't

do anything about it

but you understand it.

I'm just going to go

back to a phone call

that I had from you a

couple of months ago.

and I think it was after

the podcast that I.

kind of let a

lot of stuff out.

I was feeling quite

emotional at the time and I

I remember I got a

phone call from you

and It was a really

beautiful moment for me.

Can I just ask your

side of that phone call

and why you decided

to pick up the phone?

Yeah.

So I think the fact that

you had been so vulnerable

and so honest in that

public forum and I was,

listening to all of your

podcasts and that one it

really struck a chord with

me because I've, had my own

challenges mental health

challenges and, and that's

been ongoing and probably

still is on, it will go

for a long time, but.

When you showed your

hand like that, it just

really struck a chord.

And I wanted to reach out

and thank you for that

because it meant a lot to

me that you had done that.

And so, I don't think I

got to talk much about

me or anything like that.

I just wanted to thank

you and what you've done.

So, yeah,

Yeah.

And this is by no means

virtuous virtue signaling,

by the way, I guess I

just wanted to point

out that, you know, Sven

picked up the phone and

called someone when he

was at, you know, I knew

the background to where

Sven was at at the time,

you know, we, we talked

quite a bit like, I felt

really honored that That

I had someone in my life

who felt that they could

just pick up the phone

and, say, Hey, thank you.

I'm having a shit time.

It really resonated with

me and I just really needed

to hear that right then.

And just on mental health

and all that kind of

stuff's been like, I

know, our relationship.

goes back a lot further

than having our businesses

working together.

Like we trained together a

lot at CrossFit Blackburn.

I'm just interested to

hear from your side, how

you've got a busy life.

You've got a young family.

Lots and lots of

things going on.

What, what are some of

the things that you do

in your life to help

you navigate some of

those trickier times?

Is there things that I know

you talk that you love golf

for a long time I didn't

do much exercise as a kid.

I just played sport

all day, every day.

I loved all sports.

And then for, through my

late twenties and thirties,

I didn't do a lot.

And then I started

exercising in my

late thirties.

CrossFit was the

first thing I really

got back into.

But exercise has been

now an absolute key.

So even this morning, the

alarm went at ten to five

and I was out on the bike,

Yeah, it's really nice to

connect with other blokes

and exercise socially.

I quite like that.

And I know cyclists

get a bad rap from

a lot of people.

I think there's a healthy

mix of good and bad

cyclists, just as there

are good and bad drivers.

But we go out nice and

early to avoid the traffic.

We stop, we have a coffee

at the end, a quick

debrief, 10 minutes

and we're off, home.

I'm in the door at 7

o'clock and I'm getting

lunches made, quick shower.

I've got this at 8 o'clock

and, but if I didn't do

that ride this morning,

I'd be sitting here

like, what am I going

to, how am I going to get

some exercise in today?

And that happened

to me yesterday.

I got up early to ride

and it was raining

so I couldn't ride.

I'm the same.

I was up at five 30

this morning training

in my home gym.

And you talked about

connections there with with

other blokes and like if

I think about what humbles

me and what calms me and I

guess a place where I can

kind of feel vulnerable.

It's in that on

that gym floor where

we're working out.

We're feeling good

and we're talking.

I'm one of those wankers.

That's just bought

a cold plunge too.

So it's basically curing

everything I might add.

because cold

plunges do that.

But yeah, no, man we

train, I feel good.

I've got up, had breakfast

with the family and now

we're here having this

conversation and I'll

be exactly the same.

If I didn't do

that, I'd be itchy.

I'd be like, when

am I training today?

I had eggs on

toast with, mr.

Ben Cooper, who's the

executive chef at chin

chin, his famous chili

oil on top of it, and it

was absolutely delicious.

Yeah.

Beautiful.

Well nailed mate.

So I think connections is

a really interesting point,

Amish, and I'll just be a

little bit selfish here and

talk about something I did.

There's a couple of things.

So through COVID, everyone

was getting very fatigued

with our lockdowns.

And I came home one day and

said to my wife, I think we

need to set up some family

challenges so that families

can connect through

conversation on WhatsApp

about these challenges.

So we set up,

silly stuff, right?

So one of them was the

dress up in fancy dress

and walk around the

Blackburn Lake Sanctuary.

Now, that was a two fold.

Challenge.

One of them was get

out of your comfort

zone and have a laugh.

Stop taking yourself

so serious than being

down in the dumps about

the shit we were in.

Secondly, you'll walk

past someone else and

they'll laugh, right?

And it'll have this flow

on effect of happy people.

You know, once you smile

and have a giggle, your

day improves, right?

You feel better in

yourself, right?

So that was gold.

We got so many photos.

We had about 150 families

come into this whatsapp

prep in the local area.

Oh, so it just wasn't,

it just wasn't your

family directly, like

you actually went

No.

So we sent it out to all

the school families and

then it went out to other

school families and all

those people got involved.

So we had all sorts of

different challenges.

There were baking,

drawing, running.

There was a ride your

bike in fancy dress from

Blackburn station to

Ngunnaw wedding station.

You know, one family got

in their wetsuits and

goggles and rode their

bikes and tied themselves.

Yeah, there's incredible

memories

from

was all,

time.

So And so from that you

know, I sort of felt like I

needed to connect more with

my community around me.

So the dads at the primary

school, I remember hearing

stories about nights of

mine at their schools,

and they had all these

social gatherings with

their dads at their school.

And why don't I have

that at my school?

I'm going to organize it.

So I started getting dads

together and we'd go to

the pub and have a drink.

This is post COVID now.

And we do a barefoot bowls

and one another dad said,

Hey, I'll organize a dads

and kids camping weekend.

And so in a few weeks

time we're going and

there's going to be

50 different families and

133 people all from our

school go camping together.

And the connection

that's come just from a

couple of phone calls,

it's just everyone's

craving it and needs it.

Why is he selfish?

Can we go back to that

point where you're

saying you're going to

be, this is selfish.

How is he

Well, I guess I feel like,

the opposite.

yeah, it's, it's the

greater good of course,

but yeah, it was, I feel

really good about that

I'm listening to this

story and I genuinely

have goosebumps

thinking about it.

Like I, for all those

people living in Melbourne

and Victoria, like it was

a shit time during COVID

and all those lockdowns.

So isolating and we

Lost those connections

that I'm going to steal

this quote from someone,

but, you know, and I do

listen to a bit of Brene

Brown, but Brene Brown,

you know, world leader

in vulnerability says

that being vulnerable

with people actually

creates those really

deep connections and

circling back to.

That moment that we

had spent, like, I feel

in for me, like our

relationship changed at

that point because we had

that deeper connection.

And I think that's really

important to remember just

generally in life that we

are all on this fucking

spinning globe, feeling

the same things we were

all feeling the same things

and to smile at someone.

To ask someone how they

are, to be vulnerable

with someone, are really

all easy and important

things that we all

need to do, because

I guarantee you will

feel better afterwards.

Not saying you can fix

it, because we've all got

shit, but there's really

simple things that you

can do to, I guess, help

you navigate your way

through life day to day.

I remember that

phone call from Sven.

Like, it was, oh,

man, it was beautiful.

I was crying, he was

crying, everyone was

crying, I was just

think

it was that moment

where I knew Matt, that

we were onto something

with this podcast.

what has completely

shocked me with running

this podcast and probably

something we'll talk about

on one of the last episodes

of where we've come from

this year, blew my mind

is the amount of people who

needed help, that wanted

help, that didn't know

how to get help, and have

actually reached out to us.

And this is why we've

actually, it's a venture

way that Julie's now, want

a regular guest to help

us navigate this space.

Because we started having

people reach out, I was

like, oh, I don't know, I

know what to do, but like,

I'm not qualified for this,

like, what do we do here?

And that, like, we've had

like, what, over 30 people?

I would say,

I want to loop this back

to PassiveHouse because

with PassiveHouse, it's a

very us first them thing.

And at the end of the

day, PassiveHouse is

just, feels like this

little cultish, we drink

the Kool Aid, whatever.

But at the end of the

day, I think the big thing

about the PassiveHouse

community is everyone is

willing to help each other.

Everyone else is willing

to go out of their way

to work with someone

they haven't worked with

before, or have an open

conversation because you

all have the same goal

and the same outcome.

And it's very defined,

very quickly on.

PassiveHouse.

org And I think the

relationships that I've

found and had now, have

made me a better person,

a better builder uh,

hopefully a better, uh,

husband, better friend.

And I think this is

the thing that people

get so scared of about

Passive House sometimes

is it's not the actual

Passive House thing,

it's extra thing that

happens in the background.

Sven, you connect with your

friends because you have

a joint interest, right?

You're connecting over your

bike riding, so you feel

comfortable in that space.

I connect with my mates,

who I train with, and we

feel good after training,

so we're, we're being

vulnerable with one other,

we're helping each other.

Surely that's the same

thing when we're talking

about this passive house

space, because we're

all connecting over

this common interest.

Yeah, I think to a

degree, I think you're

largely correct.

Yep.

Yep.

about four years ago, my

cousin, who we're going

to get on at some point,

she's a I think business

psychologist is her

background, but she made

a comment and she said to

me maybe reach out to some

other builders and create a

friendship group with them.

And I was like, why

would I ever do that?

I don't want to give

them all my information.

I don't want them

to know about my

business structure.

When now we have a text

message group between

how many builders called

Dodgy Builder Chat.

It's about 12 builders

and it constantly

goes off from, Hey,

who's this trade?

Have you got a

trade for this?

This kid reach out

for apprenticeship.

Anyone, this person's

asking for this role.

Anyone keen?

What would you do

in this situation?

What detail would

you do here?

it goes off all day and

we have this community

of helping each other and

we're all competitors,

but we're not competitors.

And it's taken me, I think

that's where people need

to, I start to understand

if we work together and

go through this whole

collaboration thing,

like if you just work

together, the outcome is

so much easier and it's

so much less stressful.

I don't think we have

that at the moment in the

design community as much.

I think we did

have it pre COVID.

We go back to BDAV

days which is now

design matters.

And I was on the Committee

of Management at BDAV

for five odd years.

And you'd go to a

seminar, an in person

event, you know, not

this on camera rubbish.

You'd actually be in

the same room together.

And there'd be 100,

200 people at some

of these events.

And you have a beer

afterwards in a chat

and you connect about

a challenge that you're

facing, I've got to try

and solve this structural

issue or regulatory issue

and I did that last week,

bring this person there.

Great.

They'll help

you solve that.

We don't have that now.

And so we've got like

a Facebook group and

things like that.

That's great.

You reach in.

Hey, I need an arborist

in Queenscliff and you get

three names straight away.

It's fantastic.

It's quick.

It's easy, but

it's less personal.

And there's not as

much vulnerability

associated with that.

I don't think so.

You don't connect

in the same way.

So, I'm really keen

to sort of get back to

these in person events

and start connecting with

our design community again,

so that we aren't all

beating down these same

bridges at the same time

with our own approach.

this is the problem

that I have though.

Why don't we just have them

with architects, builders,

and building designers?

Why don't we just have

one big thing together?

Isn't that just

make way more sense?

Can we get the

building surveyors

Yep, building today

is

in on that same

Yeah, I think, like,

what, like, it needs to

be inclusive and not this

divide and, I know tomorrow

we've got the SBA, we've

got with our building

science for dummies sort

of thing we're doing

and Hamish is a complete

mix of what builders,

architects, tradies,

Totally.

and we've all purposely

done it on a Friday

afternoon on daylight

savings so you can

stick around, have a

beer, go to the pub

after it if you want to.

Like that's how you

get to know each other.

That's how you learn

from each other.

That's how you develop

trust from the start

and that trust then

goes into projects.

Like people just

overcomplicate this

so much and want to

keep their guard up.

totally agree.

I hate these in

person things.

I don't even really like

the events where you

sort of sit down like

the builder's breakfast

or anything like that.

And I know people do them,

but I don't like being

stuck next to someone.

I want to get around

and have a chat to

different people.

I just think that it's

way, it's more exciting

that way and, and there's

plenty to be learned.

Like, I don't know

everything, you don't know

everything, but together

we kind of might, or might

be able to get there.

Totally.

you share your

experiences, can't you?

I'd

Yeah,

love to get to that

event tomorrow.

I've got a site meeting

and then I've got to

coach my son's basketball,

so I'm sadly not gonna

be able to make it.

we have someone filming

the event, so we will,

um, post it up into three

parts on the Sustainable

Builders Alliance website.

Although it might sit

behind a member portal.

So

just letting

everybody know where,

I totally think

people should

yeah, we are, we're just,

we're, I'm going to let,

let the cat out of the

bag a little bit, but we

asked SBA is moving to a

member structure shortly

but it's going to be some

incredible things sitting

behind that member portal,

And rumor you've got a

calendar coming out

too that you're on as

well, Hamish, isn't it?

Like the firefighter

I'm on every page.

Yeah.

, every single page I'm on.

Yep.

Hey, Sven.

Thanks so much

for coming on.

I reckon we could

bloody talk for hours.

I know we do chat for

hours when we catch

up on the phone.

generally when we talk

about what you and I

have actually caught up to

talk about, it's usually

two minutes at the end.

, but yeah, I'm incredibly

grateful that, uh, you

know, I can call you a

friend and,, you know,

it's been amazing To be

working with you over

the last few years.

And, um, I'm excited

about you designing a

home for here, for my

family, that is completely

natural, plastic free,

petrochemical free.

the challenge for you.

It's going to happen, mate.

think that just shows the

trust there in itself,

that Hamish, as a builder,

you're trusting Sven

to design your home.

is there any bigger

selling point?

Yeah, well, I actually

don't even care

what it looks like.

Cause I just know what,

whatever Sven and his

team come up with is,

going to be awesome.

He's always wanted to

live in a glass dome.

if anyone wants to get onto

you Sven, they're looking

at designing a house how

can we reach out to you?

DMs on Instagram?

Yep.

Yep.

Yep.

the best way.

So have a look at some

of our work, read some

of our articles, our

contact page is there.

We've got a little video

series explaining Passive

House and the pros and

cons and challenges.

So jump onto that,

have a watch.

Yeah,

and if any, yeah, if

anyone's failed to

do that, you're happy

to reach out to us.

We're happy to point

you in Sven's way.

But thank you very much

for joining us today.

We really do

appreciate it, mate.

Thanks,

guys.

Good

to see you both.

Catch up.

Cheers.