Sarah Perugia (she/her): Sarah,

hello

and

welcome

to

the

whole

truth

leadership

stories

with

Sarah

Perugia.

I'm

delighted

to

say

that

in

every

episode

of

this

podcast,

I'll

be

speaking

to a

values

led

leader

who

will

share

their

vision,

their

mission,

their

purpose,

their

learnings,

and,

of

course,

their

unique

leadership

story.

I'm

Sarah,

I'm

your

host.

I'm a

whole

person,

leadership

transformation

specialist,

executive

leadership

master

coach

and

keynote

speaker.

I'm a

specialist

women

in

leadership

coach

and a

passionate

campaigner

for

gender

equality.

I

have

been

very

honored

to

spend

the

last

20

years

helping

organizations

all

over

the

world,

helping

them

to

develop

their

top

talent,

to

build

inclusive,

connected,

collaborative,

gender

equal

teams,

and

I'm

passionate

about

working

with

leaders

to

make

positive

change

in

their

lives

and

in

their

work.

I

know

from

experience

that

hearing

other

leaders

tell

their

stories,

share

their

hard

won

learning

and

celebrate

what

drives

them

is

enormously

educational

and

energizing.

So I

hope

this

podcast

will

help

those

listening

to

find

their

vision,

their

mission,

their

passion,

and

really

importantly,

understand

that

they're

not

alone

in

their

challenges.

So if

you're

a

leader

or an

aspiring

leader

looking

to

connect

with

values

driven,

inclusive,

inspirational

leaders,

and

of

course,

learn

from

them,

then

this

podcast

is

for

you.

I am

absolutely

delighted

to be

welcoming

Emma

Mitchell

to

the

podcast

today.

Emma

is a

talent

director

at

EY.

Emma,

I

know

you

have

a

long,

successful

career

in

HR,

that

you've

traveled

the

world

with

your

work,

and

that

you're

a

really

hugely

values

driven

leader.

In my

observation,

Emma,

I

think

that

you've

always

lived

with

a

strong

sense

of

purpose.

You

lead

with

your

core

values,

front

and

center,

and I

see

you

as

someone

who's

always

striving

to

make

a

positive

difference

in

the

world.

Emma,

welcome

to

the

podcast.

Thank

you,

Sarah,

what

a

lovely

What

a

lovely,

what

a

lovely

introduction.

Now,

now

I've

got

some

time

to

try.

I'll

try

and

demonstrate

that.

Hopefully

we

will,

yeah,

yeah.

And

I'm

looking,

I'm

really

delighted

and

grateful

for

you

to

have

invited

me to

do

this.

And,

yeah,

it's

a

real

joy.

So

thank

you.

Thank

you.

Sarah Perugia (she/her): Brilliant,

brilliant.

Well,

look,

let's

hand

over

to

you,

Emma,

to

introduce

yourself

a

little

bit,

both

personally

and

professionally,

and

perhaps

you

might

want

to

mention

some

career

highlights

as

well.

Thank

you.

So

yes,

I'm a

talent

director

EY in

our

EMEA

financial

services

business.

You

use

the

word

long,

which

then

made

me

feel

a

little

bit I

was

like,

Yeah,

that's

right,

because

when

I did

the

math

to

this,

I was

like,

gosh,

I've

been

working

in

people

and

change

for

30

years

now,

which

feels

quite

unbelievable,

generally,

in

professional

and

financial

services,

mostly

in

international

contexts

or

different

countries

and

cultures.

As

you

say,

I've

had a

wide

variety

of

leadership

roles,

and

honestly,

have

loved

every

every

single

one

of

them.

I've

led

human

resources,

I've

led

recruitment,

I've

led

diversity,

equity,

inclusion,

I've

led a

global

internal

consulting

team

multiple

various

change

projects

and

programs.

The

highlight

for

me,

has

always

been

around

the

people

that

I've

worked

with.

I've

always

worked

with

diverse

teams.

You

mentioned

about

values.

For

me,

values

and

principles

and

people

living

by

that

respecting

others

is

really

important.

So

and

talented

people

with

who

always

want

to

give

their

best.

So so

every

time

I've

worked

with

teams

like

that

and

people

like

that,

I've

always

been

a

career

high.

So

I'm

going

to

say

thank

you

to

all

of

those

people,

because

I'm

because

I'm

really

grateful

for

all

that

they've

taught

me

along

the

way.

From

a

personal

perspective,

I'm

an

adoptive

mum

to

two

neurodiverse

daughters,

so

autism,

ADHD

and

dyslexia

are

part

of my

family

life,

and

I'm

now

disabled

too.

Sarah Perugia (she/her): So

Emma,

I

would

love

for

you

to

tell

us a

little

bit

more

about

that

disability.

I

know

that

this

is

going

to be

something

that

we

focus

on in

this

conversation.

It's

a big

part

of

your

story

now,

and

not

something

that

you

were

born

with.

So

tell

us a

little

bit

about

how

that

came

about

for

you.

I.

Thank

you.

Yes,

it is

now

unexpected,

so,

but

if I

think

about

those

30

years,

so

this

is a

third

of my

working

career

now

that

I've

been

disabled.

So

2016

age,

45 I

had a

virus,

you

know,

flu

like

symptoms.

Didn't

think

anything

of

it,

like

a lot

of

people

with

things

like

that,

you

know,

I

worked

through,

carried

on,

just

got

on

with

life,

and

then

about

two

weeks

later,

I was

sitting

in my

performance

review

meeting.

It

was

nothing

to do

with

the

performance

review

meeting,

because

it

was a

really

good

performance

review

meeting.

So

that

was

nice.

But

during

the

course

of

that

meeting,

I

started

to

feel

a

kind

of

numbness

from

my

feet,

crawled

up my

legs.

I

managed

to

continue

with

the

meeting,

but I

got

to

the

end

and I

said,

you

know,

something's

not

right.

I

need

to

go. I

need

to go

home.

But

for

some

bonkers

reason,

I

decided

I was

going

to

catch

the

tube.

I've

no

idea

why I

thought

that.

And

what

was a

35

minute

journey.

Normally

took

me

about

two

hours,

and I

literally

stumbled

from

one

bench

to

another,

one

seat

from

another.

It

was

the

first

time

that

I

learned

how

inaccessible

the

world

is

actually

because

on

that

day,

there

were

not

enough

there

were

not

enough

benches

within

from

there,

within

about

three

weeks,

I

went

from

somebody

recently

done

a

done

a

triathlon

to

somebody

who

was

crawling

across

their

bedroom

floor

to go

to

the

loo.

I

Everything

about

me

was

all

about

energy

making

things

happen,

making

the

impossible

happen,

and

yet I

was

struggling

to

feed

myself.

I was

eventually

diagnosed

with

myaltic

encephalitis,

chronic

fatigue.

It's

an

energy

limiting

condition

similar

to

long

covid.

So

for

me,

main

symptoms

are

energy

limitation.

My

energy

is

about

15 to

25%

of

its

pre

virus

levels.

So

it's

a

little

bit

like

living

with

your

phone

battery,

your

phone

that's

only

ever

able

to

charge

at 15

to

25%

if

you

can

imagine

the

stress

of

that.

And I

have

brain

fog,

which

I

know

is

common

to

many,

particularly

menopause

or

women

too

will

associate

with

that.

But

so I

kind

of

interruptions,

we

say

the

executive

functions,

so I

can

forget

words

and

lose

my

way

in

sentences.

So

you

can

correct

me

today

if I

do,

Sarah Perugia (she/her): Emma,

that

must

have

been

such

a

challenging

and

frightening

experience

for

you

as

I'm

listening

to

that

story,

and

I've

known

you

for a

long

time,

and I

knew

you

as

the

person

who

cycled

across

Poland

and

did

triathlons

and

could

make

anything

happen,

and

probably,

compared

to

most

people,

had

more

than

100%

energy.

I

know

that's

not

mathematically

correct,

but

you

know,

certainly

100%

energy.

So I

can

only

imagine

what

that

must

have

felt

like

for

you.

I

guess

what

I'm

wondering,

Emma

is,

at

what

point

did

you

realize

that

this

wasn't

something

that

was

just

going

to

pass

like

any

other

illness

that

we

might

have

in

our

experience,

but

something

that

was

going

to

become

a

really

significant

part

of

your

life.

So

I

think

I'm a

pretty

fast

learner,

but

on

this,

I was

very,

very

slow.

So it

took

me.

It

took

me

about

three

years,

and I

would

say,

up

until

that

point.

And

you

are

you

kind

of,

you

know

me,

it

can

be

quite

stubborn

and

determined

to, I

think

I

spent

those

first

three

years

determined

I was

going

to

get

my

health

back.

It

was

all

about

getting

back.

I

fell

into

that

very

traditional

trope

of

illness,

of

I'm

going

to

fight

this,

I'm

going

to

beat

this,

I'm

going

to

win.

And

from

a,

you

know,

home

and

work

perspective,

I

like

really

carried

on,

pretended

that,

you

know,

pretended

that

nothing

had

happened.

Life

was

like

it

was

normal,

when

it

actually

wasn't.

So.

So I

would

say,

What

else

was I

thinking

in

relation

to

this?

I

think

also

there

was

something

in

relation

to

disability.

And

you

know,

our

understanding

of

disability

is,

our

traditional

understanding

of

disability

is

that

it's

fixed

and

visible

and

lifelong,

but

my

symptoms

were

invisible,

fluctuating

and

unpredictable,

so

that

didn't

kind

of

fit.

But

then

all

of

that

changed

after

three

years.

So

about

2019,

I

relapsed,

probably

to do

with

the

interplay

of me

and

menopause,

and

my

symptoms

became

so

severe,

I was

stayed

down.

I

stayed

down

for a

long

period

of

time

and

unable

to

work

for

for

for

three

years.

So

that

that

was a

kind

of

wake

up, a

kind

of

wake

up

moment,

I

think

then

so I

went

to

quite

a

dark

as

you

would,

you

know,

if

you

can

imagine,

I

went

to

kind

of

quite

a

dark

place

mentally.

There

were

times

when

I

felt

close

to

end

of

life,

felt

suicidal,

moments

of

feeling

that

like

that.

And I

needed

inspiration.

I

looked

for

inspiration

in

terms

of

stories

of

other

people

who

disabled,

other

people

with

long

term

health

conditions

like

me.

And I

then

learned

that

my

story

experience

actually

wasn't

it

wasn't

unique

a.

Percent

of

people

with

disabilities

become

disabled

during

their

working

lives.

80%

of

disabilities

are

invisible.

And

from

then

I I

shared

my

story.

I

kind

of

published

a few

articles

externally,

using

text

to

speech,

dictation,

succession,

because

I

wasn't

able

to

write

particularly

well,

and I

learned

from

others

that

it

mattered

that

I

shared

my

story

and

my

experience,

particularly

as a

professionally

successful

woman,

and

particularly

as

somebody

with

a

perspective

and

experience

as a

talent

leader

as

well.

Sarah Perugia (she/her): Yeah,

absolutely.

And

what

an

amazing

difference

you

must

have

made

to so

many

people

with

the

similar

challenges

to

you

that

you've

had

the

courage

to be

vulnerable

to

tell

this

story.

Because

the

thing

that

strikes

me

about

this

is

that

it

doesn't

fit

the

trope

that

we're

used

to,

which

is,

you

know,

you

can

beat

it.

It's

all

about

mindset,

and

it's

all

about

working

harder,

and

it's

all

about

pushing

ourselves

and

and

what

I'm

hearing

is

that

you

had

to

kind

of

let

go

all

of

that

traditional

way

of

thinking

about

how

we

overcome

illness

and

look

at it

from

such

a

different

angle.

And

I'm

sure

you

telling

your

story

must

have

helped

other

people

shift

their

perspective

on

their

own

experiences

too.

Thank

you.

Yeah,

it

did.

And

actually,

you

know,

I

don't

really

like

talking

about

myself.

You

know,

if

there

was a

public

speaking

option,

I

would

have

avoided

that

in

the

previous

20

years,

but

because

people

were

saying

thank

you,

and

this

is

really

important,

and

this

really

matters,

it's

forced

me

to,

you

know,

it's

become

more

of

calling,

I

guess

it's

forced

me to

do

something

that

I

would

typically

be

quite

uncomfortable

doing,

which

is

what

brings

me

here

today

with

you.

Sarah,

well,

thank

Sarah Perugia (she/her): you

very

much

for

stepping

outside

your

comfort

zone

and

being

with

me to

tell

your

story.

Emma,

if

there's

somebody

listening

to

this

conversation

today

who's

going

through

a

similar

challenge,

what

advice

would

you

offer

that

person?

What

hard

won

advice

would

you

offer

that

person?

I

would

start

off

by

saying,

Be

kind

to

yourself.

You

know,

be

your

best

friend.

Be

your

own

best

friend.

You're

not a

failure.

You're

not

less

than

it's

hard.

What

you're

dealing

with

is

hard,

but

you

will

learn

to

manage

it,

and

you

will

rise

stronger.

Sarah Perugia (she/her): Thank

you.

Thank

you.

Amazing

words.

Amazing

words.

So

you

and I

have

something

in

common,

which

is

that

we

are

proud

optimists

most

of

the

time

when

life

enables

us to

be

sometimes

that

can

be

tough

given

some

of

the

challenges.

And

obviously

I'm a

positive

psychology

train

coach.

So

like

you,

I

really

love

to

celebrate,

to

focus

on

the

triumphs.

So I

would

love

you

to

share

with

me

maybe

some

of

the

triumphs

that

you're

particularly

proud

of

along

your

journey.

Thank

you.

I'm

going

to

set

before

jumping

in.