Hello and welcome back to AIM and Practice where I have the immense pleasure

of sitting down with a diverse array of practitioners, experts, and

authors. And together, we delve into their unique journeys and insights,

and explore this beautiful and multifaceted world of wellness

and life as a practitioner. Now today, I have the privilege

of hosting a conversation that is not only very near and

dear to my heart, but also critical to understanding a

topic that is still shrouded in unnecessary stigma. And that's

cannabis and its medicinal use. This is

a conversation that I've been looking forward to for a pretty long time.

Something that I've not talked about at all is how cannabis genuinely

played

recovery during a time when I was told that I would likely have my right

foot amputated. Now, this was a huge period in my

life. Not only was I in a massive amount of physical

pain, but somebody like a doctor saying they're likely going to have to

amputate your foot. As an athlete, that was profoundly psychologically

impactful as well. Now this is a topic that I've been pretty

reluctant to discuss, which is odd because where I live, cannabis has

been legal for both

conversation with Kayla Sandmarva. Kayla is a

pioneering cannabis nurse and cofounded Cannabis Nurses, a

practice dedicated to integrating cannabis into holistic health care.

And she's developed the very first fully accredited holistic

cannabis nursing program in Canada. Now what's important

to understand is this isn't just an episode where we're saying, yay,

cannabis. We really dig into the science behind it, and

very specifically, we spend a lot of time talking about the endocannabinoid

system. Anybody in a wellness healing profession needs to know about the

endocannabinoid system. This endocannabinoid system,

being the mass regulator of the human body, is responsible for bringing

homeostasis or balance to things like our mood, our

appetite, how our body senses pain, how we file traumatic

memories, our digestion, our sleep, even

our body temperature. It's involved in every physiological function in the

human body. And throughout our discussion, Kaeler shares how

cannabis serves as an incredible tool for health care professionals,

enhancing other modalities like massage, acupuncture, and yoga.

And we really delve into, like I said, the specifics of the

endocannabinoid system and how it can be nourished through various

other practices, not just through the use of cannabis, but through things

like yoga and movement. I I didn't sleep at all. I didn't sleep for over

21 days and it led to, the loss of my first

pregnancy. And so in that darkness, in

that grieving, I felt like there was something completely

wrong with me why couldn't I sleep and now I had lost my first baby

that I finally decided that things really had to change. I

feel very blessed to be a health professional that was able to take

one of their darkest moments in their life and be able to turn it into

one of their brightest. Kayla underscores the importance of

understanding the historic and cultural context of cannabis, which I

agree is super important. And she emphasizes the need to break

down the stigmas and educate health practitioners about the benefits and

the safe use of this power for her. And her journey goes from

skeptic nurse to passionate advocate, and it really is what inspired

her. And my life changed. My husband, who had known me most of

my life, said, there you are. You're back. You're bright again.

And Kayla San Martin truly is an inspiring and amazing

human, and she offers her perspectives on how holistic practices,

including cannabis education, can help us find that sense of peace

and security and how cannabis is a transformative tool for

both practitioner and client. Join us as we jump

right into this conversation, and explore some pretty profound

and informative topics.

Well, Kayla, welcome. I'm really looking forward to our chat

today. So you, you and your partner, Heather, you,

run a company called The Cannabis Nurses. And I first was introduced to

what you do through a mutual friend, Shirley, who is also

a guest on the podcast. And as soon as she described to me what

you you do, I was immediately interested in talking with

you. Of course, where where we both live in Alberta and

Canada at large, cannabis is is decriminalized. You can go to the

store, you can buy it, it's no problem. Right? Which has

has led to a lot of really interesting developments as far as how

it's used, and in some cases, I suppose, how it's abused. But most

importantly, it's opened up the doors for a lot more people to

actually reap the benefits of what it can do as a

herb. So my background, I studied herbs and

Herbology, and I always found the cannabis plant to be a super

fascinating plant as far as its its herbal property. So I want to dig into

it. But first, but first, I'd love it if you could just share a little

bit about the backstory. What what led you to,

well, essentially create an entire business that's based around cannabis to

to the point where that's, as far as I understand, well, what you really do.

Yeah. It's I feel very blessed to be a health professional

that was able to take one of their darkest moments in their

life and be able to turn it into one of their brightest.

This cannabis nursing practice branches back to what I

wished I would have had when I found medical cannabis. So

that would have been about 7 years ago now. So pre

pre, recreational legalization, and as they go

through Western medicine's, like, thought process in

regards to nursing. And what I needed to do at that time

was, you know, something was wrong. I wasn't able to sleep. I was working shifts,

and I wasn't sleeping, and I felt really alone, really

anxious. So if something's wrong with you, you go to the doctor. And so that's

what I did. I went to the university doctor. I I was prescribed an

SSRI medication for anxiety and sleeping pills.

And thankfully, at the time that I did need that, I needed something to

stabilize and be able to sleep again, and I did. I started to sleep again.

I felt like complete garbage every day when I woke up because of the hangover

effect and the side effect of those pills, but thank god I wasn't spending an

entire night alone anxious at the age of 21 unable to sleep.

And those sleeping pills became part of my life for the next

6 years. In that time, I was doing work with psychologists

and, you know, really kind of trying to get to the root cause of this,

but was never really able to find the root cause of it.

And so those sleeping pills were my tool that finish helped me finish

nursing school, got me into my full time career as an RN,

and, unfortunately, I became heavily dependent on sleeping pills for those 6

years. And I always say it was one of more of those universal moments where

the universe sort of came and kicked me in the ass and said, okay. Enough's

enough. Things have to change. And, I'd been on them

for 6 years, and I unexpectedly became pregnant after I got married.

And I thought, here it is. Here is my solution.

Here is my message. I'm gonna finally be able to kick these to the curb.

And believe me, I never wanted to be on them, but I didn't know what

else to do. And so I flushed my pills down the toilet,

and I said, here we go. Here comes 1st semester fatigue. Like, this is my

message. This is my sign. And it was 3 weeks

into that journey that I didn't sleep at all. I didn't sleep for over 21

days, and it led to, the loss of my first pregnancy.

And so in that darkness, in that grieving,

I felt like there was something completely wrong me. Why couldn't I sleep? And now

I had lost my first baby that I finally

decided that things really had to change. And so my husband

actually had been a rec cannabis user for most of his life and

or most of his adult life. And, honestly, as a nurse, I didn't like it.

I really didn't like it. And my husband remembers me walking out

of our room after it'd been 3 plus weeks of no sleep, and I said,

throw me a joint. And he goes, okay. Runs

to, the garage to roll a joint because he's, like, probably been thinking

for the last 6, 7 years that this would help me. And so I

started to consume cannabis then, and it started to change my

life. I started to be able to rest. I started to not be filled

with absolute debilitating anxiety leading into the night,

and I started to sleep. But I said, if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna

do this right. And so, at that time, we had just

started to have more medical cannabis clinics available,

but the one in Edmonton was booked forever. And so we took

days off work, and my husband drove me down to Calgary to get my medical

license for cannabis. And I sat in that waiting room to

get my prescription, and I was sweating. My heart was beating. I felt

like I was doing something wrong. And so I obtained my

license and I started to consume cannabis and my life

changed. My husband, who had known me most of my life, said, there

you are. You're back. You're bright again. I didn't wake up every

morning feeling hungover. My anxiety reduced

significantly. And instead of dreading the night, I started to look forward to

the night, and that was the first time in 7 years that I was able

to feel that way. And then that opened the floodgates. I needed to

know more. I needed to know more about this plant. I needed to know more

about this my own stigmas that I held about this plant. Where did they come

from? And so I started to dive into education around

cannabis, and I was self educating for, you

know, 7 6 or 7 years leading into creating my practice.

And it was, like, literally just out of my own personal need, interest,

passion. And I started to coach a bunch of nurses in the emerge I

worked with, how to get into the medical cannabis program, how to use

cannabis. And I started to realize, well, I'm already, I'm

being a nurse still, but I'm just teaching people about cannabis. I'm not teaching them

in the emergency department or I'm not teaching them about their diabetic meds. I'm teaching

them about cannabis. Where the heck do I fit in this? And

so I just kept educating and being really curious, really passionate

about it. And it was on my maternity leave with my second son that

I started to realize that there wasn't a place where I fit

yet, and so I needed to make my own place. And

so through the Canadian Institute of Integrative Nursing

Development and Education, I took a program about how do you start your own business

as a nurse? How do you start your own practice? And so I started on

that journey there, and then they caught wind of me. And they said, what are

you doing? What kind of practice are you building? And I told them about my

cannabis nursing practice that was gonna focus on women's health, and this

is, you know, what I was envisioning with it. And they said,

you're our person. And I said, what? What do you mean you're I'm your person?

And they said, we've been looking for a nurse to write us a holistic cannabis

nursing program. So I was put through their holistic nurse

coach program, and then I branched into creating the

1st accredited holistic cannabis nursing program in Canada that

launched on 4/20 of last year, and I call that my

3rd child or, I guess, ultimately, my 4th.

Yeah. That was really driven by the loss of my first. And so

that program launched out, and, our practice has been building over

time, and, we have some referral bases that have

allowed us to expand across, Western Canada at this

point. Well, thank you. I mean, there there's a

lot of there's a lot of interesting bits within your story. What I found

myself most curious to is this idea of creating a program. So

one of the companies that I run, AIM Online Education, and it's I definitely get

what you mean. It's it's like childlike. It is all all consuming as far as

energy and focus goes. So I get it, but I'm I'm really interested

in the process of educating wellness practitioners. My

primary demographic are going to be massage therapists, tachyfuncturist, osteopaths,

yoga teachers, so on and so forth. Right? But I'm curious when

you were asked to develop this program, what what do

you teach people? And are you mostly just focused on

nurses or multiple different forms of wellness practitioners?

So within this program with the KIND, because it's a nursing,

institute for continuing education, The program is completely

put through a nursing lens. And so this program that is

out and launched right now is specifically for nurses. That

being said, the co owner of our practice, she's a recreational therapist. And

so we have on our goal list and intentions to

take that program, take the nursing lens off it, and for it to be for

allied health professionals because everybody needs to know about the

endocannabinoid system. When you listed, you mostly work with

acupuncture, massage, osteopathy, yoga instructors. All

of those modalities nourish the endocannabinoid system, so the same system

that cannabis nourishes in the body. Mhmm. And so we have

absolute intentions of expanding that out to other health care professionals.

Anybody in a wellness healing profession needs to know about the endocannabinoid

system. I really appreciate that. And

I'm curious what level of awareness you're bringing to

the allied health professions. And the reason I ask is when it comes

to say, for example, acupuncture, we look at it as a

herb. We're not allowed to prescribe it. But if somebody comes into our clinic and

we understand that they're under the influence, It's like, okay. Fine. No no

problem. Carry on with the with the session. Right? But in

in other professions such as massage therapy, many of the standards of

practice have it listed very clearly that, 1, if you suspect

somebody's under the influence of cannabis, then you cannot treat them.

2, you they you're not allowed to use any cannabis based products. Like,

there's really strict rules around

everything related to cannabis, largely in the massage therapy

industry. So I'm I'm curious, do you have any

any projects? Are you working on sort of broadening the education

of what the endocannabinoid system does and how it works and

maybe take some of the stigma off of it? Oh,

absolutely. And it, like, it really doesn't surprise me to hear that, you know, we

sort of categorize cannabis right alongside alcohol or, like,

illicit street drugs, like cocaine or heroin or something like that.

Right? So, you know, to take that liability off yourself, you absolutely they

cannot be under the influence. I'm under the influence of cannabis right now. It's just

non intoxicating. You just can't tell. Right?

So I think, like, where sort of that the piece

comes when we're defining stigma, a lot of it comes back to actually, like,

examining closer into the history of cannabis and really understanding

where does that stigma come from. You know, this is a plant that the

origins, we don't even know the full origins of this plant. Somewhere between 6 to

10000 years ago, it was likely found in some southeastern Asian mountains.

And then from there followed our trade routes and came over to North America in

the pockets of slaves and and in the early 1800.

And but when we look back at the the history of cannabis

and we really start to examine that we lost it for that 100 years because

of prohibition, it none of we don't we didn't lose this

plant and it became illegal because it was incredibly dangerous.

Cannabis has never caused an overdose death, nor physiologically can

it. Somebody can consume way too much THC and do

something really irresponsible and cause death or injury or

harm, But nobody's heart has ever stopped breathing or their lungs stopped

breathing. Heart stopped beating and their lungs stopped breathing because

of ingesting too much THC. And so when we look into that

history and really, really see that our prohibition of cannabis is

really rooted in, you know, racism, patriarchy, and greed,

not in harm. And that actually at that time, physicians stand up stood up in

court and said, you can't do this. And if you do, we lose our ability

to research and prescribe this herb. And so that's

actually, like, a big piece of the cannabis nursing program is taking a

really deep dive into the historical use of cannabis and that

evolution through time of it being an illicit drug and then being removed

from the schedule in Canada and becoming, part of a medical program and then a

recreational legalization. And so I think that's a big piece of

it. But then also, you know, when we talk

cannabis, we can't not talk about the endocannabinoid system. And that massage

therapist is stimulating the endocannabinoid system through

their touch because there's receptors for cannabis all throughout the skin.

Acupuncture is increasing the receptors for the endocannabinoid system in the

brain. Osteopathic treatments do that. Yoga and breath work

also nourish this endocannabinoid system and boost our own body's own made

cannabis. And so when we start to go through

our evolution of history, which then leads into the discovery of the endocannabinoid

system, the plant becomes a lot less scary. And Mhmm.

That what we're really missing there when we see those really stigmatized, you

know, statements even in this, like, legal liability piece of these

practices is lack of education. It's

it's really ignorance in the end, actually. So I would love to sit down with

those boards and be like, here's your education. What are we actually scared

of? Yeah. Exactly. I'm curious. Can

we can we maybe just nerd out just a little bit and dig into the

endocannabinoid system? Because I also find it

so fascinating. And what I really appreciate that you've already referred to

several times is how things like body work, breath work,

simply moving the body through stretches, all of these things we do

that that the the sense, the intrinsic

senses, that feels good and I enjoy doing that. To some extent Mhmm.

Play excuse me. To some extent, play with the

endocannabinoid system. So can you sort of dig in and maybe let's just just

work on, let's just talk about how how massage for

example, would start to play with and and work with

the endocannabinoid system and what's actually happening sort of

in the the the deepest level? Yeah.

I always joke. I always say, like, my curly hair is as big as my

nerd brain, so I'm happy to nerd out anytime. Awesome.

Awesome. Awesome. But, ultimately, the endocannabinoid system

was discovered late eighties, early nineties. And this is a time in

our history where the AIDS epidemic is really driving advocacy and legal access

to cannabis. So you think we'd start to study, well,

why is THC helping them? Why is this cannabinoid helping them? But, no, it was

just like, no, let's just find out why THC makes you high. So

it was in Jerusalem that they put radioactive material in the

THC molecule and then watch the human body consume

THC. And literally from head to toe, they watch the entire human body

light up with receptors for THC. And they're like, oh,

okay. What is this? And so that was the ultimate discovery of the

endocannabinoid system. And this endocannabinoid

system is a very integral part of human health.

So at 7 weeks gestation, that fetus that

is a blob with a beating heartbeat has an endocannabinoid system

by that point in gestation. All animals have an endocannabinoid

system except insects. And what this endocannabinoid

system is doing is bringing homeostasis to the body or

balance. So So we can think about the ascendocannabinoid system like the

body's thermostat. It's all it's trying to do is bring the

body's function into a comfortable room temperature,

into a beautiful balance. And so this

endocannabinoid system, being the master regulator of the human

body, is responsible for bringing homeostasis or balance to

things like our mood, our appetite, how our body senses

pain, how we file traumatic memories, our digestion,

our sleep, even our body temperature. It's involved in

every physiological function in the human body. And the reason

cannabis is so safe is, you know, it's not benign,

but it's safe, is that in the brain stem, we don't

have enough we barely have any endocannabinoid receptors

or none at all. And that's the only place in the human body that we

don't have receptors for cannabis. And so

when they discovered that THC was binding and discovered this endocannabinoid

system and these receptors all over the human body, they had to go looking

further. Our bodies are not equipped with a with a

system and receptors for a plant that's external to our body. So what

is our body making that's binding to these receptors?

And so that was the discovery of anandamide and something else called 2AG.

And so that's our body's own made cannabis. Anandamide

comes from the Sanskrit word ananda, which means extreme bliss or

joy. And interestingly, the THC molecule

is almost structured the same as anandamide. So where our body's own

endogenous cannabinoid anandamide binds,

our external, our phytocannabinoid from the plant, can also bind.

And interestingly enough, there is really no there is no

pharmaceutical that can access the endocannabinoid system. They've

done, they've tried, and they've nearly killed people in clinical studies trying

to like sort of find something that could access this system.

And so this endocannabinoid system, you know, the phytocannabinoids,

the plants can access it. And then that's why cannabis can work

for so many things. Well, why does that person use it for seizures? That person

uses it for chronic pain. They use it for PTSD. They use it for tremors.

They use it for sleep. Like, this just seems too good to be true as

per, like, our sort of western medicine minds. It's because it

accesses this endocannabinoid system, this master regulator of the human

body. And when we look at this endocannabinoid system,

yes, cannabis can access it, but our lifestyles can either

dysregulate it or they can support it. And

so, rate you know, our modern day world is really, really fabulous

at disregulating the endocannabinoid system. So things

like alcohol, multiple

prescription drugs, smoking cigarettes, all of those dysregulate the

endocannabinoid system. So a hangover, perfect example of

endocannabinoid system disruption. Changes in our mood, in our

memory, ability to sleep, anxiety, digestion changes, all of these

things are caused by hangover by alcohol. Right? Other

things that dysregulate is poor sleep, high levels of

chronic stress, processed foods, aging, and then fluctuating

hormones within female, all dysregulate the centocannabinoid system.

And then this is where that allied health piece comes in. Our lifestyles can

support the endocannabinoid system. So living healthy lifestyles,

eating whole foods, nourishing our gut health, you

know, yoga and breath work, exercise. You know, they say exercise for

endorphins. Get that runner's high. It's not the endorphins. They boost about

this much. It's anandamide. It's an extreme boost in anandamide that makes

us feel good. It makes us feel blissful after exercise.

And then our treatments like acupuncture, osteopathy, massage,

all nourish the endocannabinoid system. And then again, that's why so many

people would use acupuncture for so many different things, and same with massage.

You know, you're not just going in there and you're getting treatment, say, for one

painful area in the body. It's all interconnected, right? And

that interconnection comes because of the endocannabinoid system.

That is so cool. That's so cool. I think it Isn't it? That it

it's like on one hand, you know, for some people it might be, oh, good.

It takes it takes the magic out of it. We're supposed to just think like

something like acupuncture. It just works because of chi and all of these mystical properties,

which certainly might be true. But I also really appreciate that if we look at

it slightly different, it's equally, in my opinion, even more

magical to consider the fact that evolution built right into

us this holistic system that is shockingly

easy to access endogenously and also a

plant that allows us to access it exogenously. Right? Like,

that that to me is like, wow. That's magic that that exists.

And, yeah, when we come from these lakes like, for me, from a nursing,

bachelor of science, you know, it's very scientifically based.

Here now I have my scientific basis to explain why my

body loves yoga and breath work and acupuncture and cannabis

and massage. Here is my actual,

like, evidence to show you why and explain why our bodies are

loving that. Or for me, it gives me a basis to

explain to some of my clients maybe why they are struggling in so many areas

of their life is because we're stuck in these areas that

dysregulate or look at the pandemic. Chronic levels of stress

and mental health are worse than the most poor that they've ever been.

But when we put society through a chronic level of stress for that extended period

of time, we're just regulating the endocannabinoid system. So it's no

wonder people are seeing increase in things like pain, poor sleep,

anxiety, depression. It's just like in the end, it's

just this like really deep physiological understanding about kind of the

human experience, in my opinion. Mhmm.

You know, my my own personal relationship with cannabis, I didn't I didn't consume

any form of it until, I don't know, mid mid twenties or something like that.

And then some friends like, hey, you wanna pop in? I'm like, sure, whatever. Didn't

like it. Right? So it wasn't until probably close to my thirties that I

actually started to consume it on a semi regular basis. But it was only after

a very severe injury that it, became a

more regular part of my life. So some of the listeners will know the the

story, but what what ended up happening is I got into a really nasty climbing

accident, completely shattered my ankle. So much so that the

doctor was was saying we need to amputate. Like, it was it was bad.

And, when I I was I was

living in a van at the time, so I was travelling around. I didn't have

a regular doctor and nobody was prescribing me pain meds.

So I'm like, okay, well, I know that this can help. And I also read

a study at the time, which I haven't looked into since, that was saying that

high dose CBD, which we'd like to talk about perhaps later, high dose CBT

CBD, sorry, increases rates

of, bone healing. But that was another reason. It does. I was hoping you were

gonna say that. Okay. Yeah. I read this study and so what

I after I read that study, I'm like, okay. I went out and and at

this time, it it wasn't yet, legalized

recreationally. So you still did need, But I was in BC at the time. And

in BC, for some reason, even prior to to recreational

legalization, you could just go into a store and buy things. So I

I go to, like, 10 different stores and I buy, like, almost a $1,000

worth of CBD because the study I read was in mice and

it didn't have, appropriate doses. It was just kinda like, here's what we did. So

I'm I'm basically just, like, chugging this stuff. I can't even remember how much I

took, but Yeah. Massive amounts. I genuinely think that played

a significant role in why I am now able to walk

relatively well, pretty much pain free. But as as that sort of

continued, you know, I I healed. And now now cannabis was

was part of my life. And at the time, I went through some, like, really

horrific emotional things and like a relationship ended. It was just like

a terrible time in life. So then for me, it turned from this

thing that I was using to help me with pain and help me with bone

healing to something I was using to escape, to turn my brain off, to just,

like, check out. And I personally felt like it was it was

not a good part of my life anymore.

And, I'm sorry to to sort of bogart that with this story, but I'm getting

somewhere with this, which is what I eventually discovered

is when I would consume cannabis and just kind of sit there and

like watch Netflix or play video games or whatever,

universally, I felt like crap. I felt shameful. I I would feel,

lethargic. I would wake up with a hangover for some reason. Oh, lord

knows my diet went out the window. And I'm I'm pretty strict about my diet.

But what I ended up realizing several years later after I

had fully healed is if I would consume just a bit of

cannabis, you know, maybe have a hoot off of a vaporizer pen or something

like that and go for a run, life changed.

It wasn't like I felt stoned or anything like that, but I would I would

hit that runner's high. At the same time, my assumption is that the the sort

of cannabis high was reaching its peak. And it was Yeah. Blissful and

euphoric beyond words. And then I'd finish my run and

be ready to go about my day. So I found that this combination

of running, of things like yoga, even of of weightlifting

combined with with cannabis is just like a

huge, huge benefit to me. But not so much just

sitting around watching TV. Right? Yeah.

So what I'm getting at with this is, and I'm sure there's a few things

we could pick apart in there, is what's the difference? Like why is it

that this plant seems to at sometimes,

really not feel good or beneficial, but at other

times, really feel like this is a life changer?

That's a great question and, like, such a beautiful example about how our relationship

with cannabis can really shift. And really what it comes back to

is the intention behind the use. It's that intentional

use. Are we using it as a catalyst kinda tool that can help us

engage in healthy behaviors that support the endocannabinoid system,

or are we borderlining upon that the cannabis use disorder

where it's really leading us into dysregulation of the endocannabinoid

system? Without intentional use, THC can hurt the

endocannabinoid system. When those

receptors in the brain for cannabis, the endocannabinoid

receptors in the brain are flooded with THC all the time, those

receptors are like, we're sick of this. We've seen enough of this. And the

receptor actually will pop back inside of the cell. And so with

overuse of THC, we've downregulated the endocannabinoid

system. And so it's very, very much about intentional use.

And in our practice, we are referred to a lot of clients with cannabis use

disorders, or maybe if we're not necessarily quite to a use disorder

yet, where they're using it as escapism. Because it is. It's

a powerful way to escape. Cannabis is known as an entheogen,

so that is changing perception.

When it's used in a very intentional way, it can be a very powerful tool

to help us look at life situations differently, be sort of an

additive tool to help us engage in things like you mentioned, exercise, weight lifting,

yoga, those kinds of things, but it can also flip on

the other side. So it's very much knowing about the reason why behind the use

and also having that education. And in our practice, it's very important

to us that each individual, by the time of their interaction with

us, feels educated, empowered, and relatively unapologetic

in their use because it's based in education and support.

But one thing I did want to sort of pull out of that conversation

is the person that you were describing or the where you were in

your life when you came to cannabis really is reflective of our

statistics. You are in a very vulnerable place. You're a

very vulnerable individual. You didn't have a prescriber. Maybe you didn't want to take

narcotics and you had this injury that literally could

have changed your life completely. And that's why we

created our practice is because those that come to cannabis are typically

in a very vulnerable place. When we statistically

look back at the reasons why people are using medical cannabis in Canada,

the top two reasons are they either prefer natural

pharmaceuticals. Right then and there, we paint a picture of a very

vulnerable individual that maybe hasn't found the support they needed in Western

medicine. And that can happen for various reasons. We don't need to

get into that, but they're coming to cannabis as their last resort

hoping that they might find some hope, like, find some light and some hope

in that situation. And so we wanna hold space

for that vulnerability. We wanna be there to teach them how to

intentionally use cannabis to help build a baseline level of

functioning. And maybe probably through your teachings and

stuff, you've come across Maslow's hierarchy of needs, I'm guessing.

Yeah. Oh, yes. So the way that I look at

our practice is that we're helping people come to that baseline level of

functioning with like in Maslow's. So we don't reach our

optimal health, wellness, quality of life without a

solid foundation. And so cannabis can be a very powerful

tool for a person that's very vulnerable, very dysregulated

to help to bring things like some pain control, some mood

regulation, and sleep. From there, that individual

is capable of achieving so many things.

And so then from there, cannabis is our tool to get that baseline.

And then from there, we're coaching and we're helping people

to identify what really means to bring quality of life and how can that

lifestyle support my endocannabinoid system. So maybe somebody's

been using alcohol to cope with

trauma and pain and be able to sleep at night, but they wake up and

they feel like garbage every day from it. They don't want to be there, but

they don't know what else to do. So then they're referred to us and we

help them replace alcohol with cannabis,

start getting really good quality sleep, getting some really good pain control,

and also influence the mood. They're all interconnected. You can't separate any of those

factors. And then from there, we help coach them and move them towards,

well, I want to exercise again. I miss exercise, but I haven't been able to

because of my pain. Okay. Well, let's get your pain under control first

and then let's help coach you towards that intention of moving your body. And most

of the time, the intention falls into place with relatively little to no effort

because we're helping meet that baseline. Mhmm.

I really appreciate how we we you kind of established that. This is this

is a a herbal plant, a natural substance that can really, really help meet

that baseline. I mean, sleep, just just in itself. I mean, we could probably just

have an entire 2 hour conversation on sleep and

and what that does. But but something I'm curious about at this

point is the the benefits are are

vast and in many different systems of the body. I

mean, even when I remember at one point, I was just going for a little

run and I thought to myself, you know, I think cannabis is also an

egolytic. You know, it allowed me to just step outside of my ego

for a moment and just consider things from a different perspective. Like,

and I do want to explore more of these these really amazing sort of

maybe even spiritual or psychological aspects of it. But for a moment, can we dip

into the the the side effects, if not even side effects,

that's not the right word, but the the negative aspects. When we've got

cannabis use disorder, that's it. But are there there, like, any

any things that one needs to be aware of, you know, the quote, unquote

bad trip or whatever it might be? Like when

you green out per se? Yeah. Like when somebody can see

anxiety attacks or something like that. Or I've heard a lot of people say

that they get really paranoid and they can't go out or something even with a

relatively low doses. So can we address those for a moment?

For sure. And like I sort of mentioned it a little bit earlier that

cannabis is widely safe, but it's not completely benign either.

Mhmm. And especially as, you know, cannabis was

prohibited, and so we had the illicit market.

And, you know, back in the day when we really look historically back

at cannabis, the THC percentages were quite low where we might have even

had more CBD in those strains. But then we hit the

prohibition era and we have the illicit market that's really starting to drive that

high THC component of the plant. And this plant over

the years has really been, you know, has been breed it in

a way that we're really like looking for those high THC components.

But there's a lot more medicinal components to this plant.

But then that's where we put, you know, maybe some first time

users, at higher risk to having negative side

effects. THC is very much it's called a biphasic molecule.

So at one dose, it does one thing. At another dose, it does another. So

at a very, very micro low dose could be really amazing for somebody for

anxiety. Too high of a dose, and we're causing anxiety.

We're stimulating the receptors in the brain. We're creating a euphoric response.

And so then that can lead into anxiety. And another thing that

I think a lot of people have really bad experiences with THC is

often maybe first time that you've tried it, it's in that sort of party setting.

You already have alcohol on board. Somebody gives you a puff. Somebody hands

you a brownie. Right? And sure, why not? Right? And

it ends up being a really negative experience, high anxiety,

paranoia, lots of fear, all of these sort of

things. But alcohol boosts THC levels in the

blood, increasing our risk of side effects. So knowing

that coadministering those two substances can be quite can be relatively

dangerous in a way of causing negative side effects. And

so like anything, it's so much about intention and about our

dose. Cannabis dosing is so incredibly important. And the

interesting thing you said, some can have just the most microdose and have a negative

experience where some can keep consuming, and it barely seems like they even have a

response. And that that comes back to the tone of the

endocannabinoid system. Our tones are also

incredibly unique and incredibly different. How the body processes

specifically edibles is really unique to each person. It depends on

how much fat you have in your stomach. For a woman, it can depend where

they are in their hormonal cycle, how we respond to an edible dose or

an inhaled dose of cannabis, specifically THC. So there's a

lot of nuances behind cannabis. And that's why I thought, how do we have

this medical program in Canada? Or now we have this recreational

program, we have prescribers and we have vulnerable consumers, but we

have no educator in the middle. Or if we do, they're actually not

really educated when it comes to health. You know, they're not

they're not a nurse. They're they're not you know? And so I thought, how do

we not have an educator in this when this literally is

filled with so many nuances? Yeah. I mean,

that's that's a really good point. When when I went to get my my medical

prescription before it was, legalized recreationally, I went into the doctor,

and the doctor is like, what do you need? And I'm like, I'm not sleeping

and I've got pain in my ankle. And the doctor was like, cool. And wrote

it like a prescription just like any old prescription. And in my

mind, I'm like, well, that was easy. But in in retrospect,

it's like that's that's so bizarre because of how nuanced it is,

particularly coming from my background of of Herbology and really studying herbs

and really understanding the dose makes the poison. And and

it's just like, here, just whatever. You know, we maybe

take x number of milligrams a day. Sure. But,

like, very, very little guidance. And the fact that that education

is such an important part of what you do, I

find absolutely essential. Can we talk

about that that dose a little bit as far as

how do you go about figuring out dosages,

particularly because of all the different vectors, all the different ways

one can consume cannabis now from the the the leaf

to oils to vaporizers to gummies to brown you

know, like, there's so many different ways. My experience has been I

have an edible. I am just wracked with pain. I

get crazy body pain. Can't have edibles. I also if I have too

many, I start to, you know, get that vague hallucinogenic effect. Mhmm. So

they don't work for me, but that's through a lot of your experimentation. So what's

your process when you work with somebody who's either experienced or

brand new to to cannabis? How do you go about educating them

on on dose and method of consumption?

That's a great question. So I think a really important part of that

is, like, a really extensive holistic viewed intake,

starting to really understand, like, what pieces in their

life are troublesome, what does your diet look like, when do you eat,

lots of different factors. We we really do a comprehensive

holistic assessment for an intake first to start to understand, you

know, this person's human experience and not just from

you know, we're not just looking at your pain. We're looking at, you know, all

of those pieces, mental, physical, spiritual, your community

around you, all of those pieces. And so that's sort of our introductory

piece. But when it really comes to dosing, we

actually really put the the onus back on the individual. What's really

unique about this medicine is that it's

individual based. It is person driven. And so

what we end up doing in that is we teach people how to self titrate

their doses. What does it mean to do a self titration? So it

means we start in low doses. We match that dose to time of day

based on when they eat or how they wanna consume it

because there's various reasons for different routes of admit, and I could really get into

that. But we teach them how to slowly increase their dose over

time, especially with CBD. CBD isn't a quick fix. It

is full maximum potentials between 8 to 12 weeks.

And especially when we're dealing with people that are really vulnerable, maybe having suffered

with chronic conditions for a very long time, to cope, they

really learn to dissociate from that sensation of chronic pain or mental

health or anxiety. And when we create that safe

environment and we start to build that therapeutic relationship through our

intake and starting to understand their human experience, we

actually ask them to come back into their bodies and become embodied and

say, you know, it's been probably a long time since you've really spent time

focusing on, you know, my pain levels or what activities increase my pain

level or what situation increases your hypervigilance or your

anxiety or what triggers you if you have PTSD, all these things,

or what nights do you have bad sleeps. But we ask them to become embodied

because ultimately, once they find sort of their baseline

dose through that self titration, when they really started to notice that things have changed,

that their symptomology has changed inside their body, then we

teach them how to ebb and flow that dose based on what's happening in their

life and what messages their body's sending them. But we really

wanna, like, really kinda hold their hand through that process because we always say the

plant will win you over in time, but we're gonna be there to support you

in this plant as you you and your body, like, learn this interaction with this

plant. And ultimately, by the end of this,

you're gonna be able to feel safely embodied, respond to

what your body's telling you because you have this toolbox in front of you that's

completely under your own control. You don't have to go to a doctor to ask

for a dose increase. It is on you. And I know that can feel

scary because we're very used to being told what to do in our western medicine

system. But now I wanna put this power back. This is

great. This is empowerment. This is you being able to take control over,

say, your chronic pain. But you do have to feel it and learn

how the plant and your chronic pain interact so that you can

feel empowered to change that dose when you need to change that dose.

That is so, so beautiful. I really appreciate this idea

of embodiment. That's I I I have

a huge number of conversations about embodiment. It's a big part of my own

personal practice when I see clients and a big part of the

education that I provide. So the fact that that's sounding like a

pretty significant foundational aspect of the process

that you work through with people is so so beautiful.

So thank thank you for doing that and also thank you for sharing that.

So when, when we consider working with different

groups of people, one thing that I'm interested in discussing is

the people who do have dependency issues. They have been self medicating,

they have never worked with somebody like yourself, and they've gotten to that

point of significant down regulation, whatever it might be,

where where it is problematic. What's the process

you go through when working with an individual like that?

The first piece that we always make very clear to the individual is that we're

there is no judgment here. There's a reason that your bodies love this

plant, and there's a reason why you've sort of gravitated

to it. So no different than when psychiatrists started to notice that undiagnosed

or people with undiagnosed ADHD really had a tendency towards the plant.

And we bring it back to educating them about the endocannabinoid

system. Here is likely why your body has responded so

well to replacing anandamide in your body with THC.

And, you know, let's let's take a look at this and see, like, is your

consumption really adding to your quality of life, or do you feel like it's actually

taking away from it? And often where we really sort of see those

that use disorder is with inhalation method. It only you know, it

works almost immediately, but only last 2 to 4 hours. So we start

sort of chasing this feeling. Right? I smoke because my anxiety is

really high and I can feel my pain elevating, so that's elevating my anxiety. So

I smoke and I feel good for, you know, an hour or 2, and then

I don't feel good again. And so I have to consume again. And they kind

of put themselves on this roller coaster of managing symptoms,

then not managing them, then managing them. And that really can perpetuate

this this use disorder because the body is really looking

for that relief. And so then we start to pull it back a bit

and we start to talk about, okay, when we start to flood these receptors with

cannabis and, you know, I've taught them about the endocannabinoid system, they're they're

really excited about it and quite fascinated by it. And then we can sort of

say when we start to flood this system with THC, we can actually start to

down regulate it or we can start to hurt this system. Oh,

okay. So then what we sort of one of the first

steps that we've been using in our practice is can we start to

bring in non intoxicating cannabinoids to start to help meet some of those

needs? So if somebody is using high THC to help with pain and

anxiety throughout the day, can we bring some CBD into the system?

But can we do it in an oral route so that, you know, we get

5 to 8 hours of duration of action that's level That's

straight across the board instead of up and down. And then

they're, oh, okay. That would feel good. How can we capture how you feel at

the top there of, you know, your 2 1 to 2 hours of

your inhalation method? How can we capture

that in a way that takes away side effects? So when euphoria is not

appropriate, it's a side effect. Can we take that awake, but can we

allow your body to feel that way using different cannabinoids? So

we still use the plant that they love, but we're gonna introduce different

routes of administration and how they use it to start to find if we can

find a more level, relief from their symptoms using

various roots and cannabinoids. And then from there, when we

start to meet the need, then the use and need

for high THC via inhalation method can start to fall away.

But a big piece of that is the own individual's readiness for change

and readiness to sort of look at that.

But we typically just do it through nonjudgmental education and support.

And if it's just a way of introducing some other cannabinoids into their

life, then that's great too. Some that are no longer even having

really positive benefit from inhaling THC, they're like, well, I don't feel high

anymore. I don't I don't feel any of that. K. Let's explain why. You probably

have, like, one receptor left in the brain, and they're, oh, okay.

But then we might switch and say, like, have you ever tried to inhale CBD?

That's the the the highest way or the best way to,

like, absorb CBD. It doesn't mean it's the best way for your lungs, but that's

our highest absorption rate is through inhalation. And so they might start to

pull in some CBD into their inhalation method, and they'd be like, you know what,

Kayla? That's actually really how I've wanted to feel.

And so then we can you know, as long as they're in that place for

change, then then we can start to open their eyes to, like, various other

parts of this plant. This plant is just not just THC.

And typically with understanding of the endocannabinoid system,

we do have some pretty good outcomes with that. So

As you're describing your process of working with an individual, what's what's occurring to me

is, it seems as though the the same thing is true with what

you do in in nursing as is what's true with us

in acupuncture, massage, or anything like that. And it's you're you're a

lot a bit of this modality and also a lot of bit counsellor in

psychologist. It really sounds like there's a lot of, psychological

and spiritual work you end up doing. Now, I'm not sure if the word spiritual

would would kinda land with you, but No. Absolutely. In my perspective. Yeah. That

seems like you're really doing more areas of yeah. It's one of our

areas of holistic health. You can't you can't ignore that

spiritual aspect. And, like, our,

like, driving theory behind our practice is, like, Jean Watson's,

theory of human caring. And so what we're really

doing is the practitioner themselves is one of the

most powerful therapeutic tools. And so

being able to create that safe environment for that individual to really feel safe

to start to dive into and start to understand their suffering.

And in that in that process, we're also giving them tools to help move them

outside of that suffering. Yeah. But in that, we we

have to acknowledge the suffering and and start to make sense of it. For me,

the cannabis plant helped me make sense of suffering from insomnia and

losing a a pregnancy over it. And now I can look

back on that situation and realize that that was my building block in my

foundation to rise out of that and create something

else beautiful out of that. And so, yeah, I agree that that

practitioner is just as powerful as their modality,

as their acupuncture, as their massage, as their osteopathy, as my

cannabis plant. But when we can put together a

really powerful healing presence of a practitioner with a

really healing modality, that's when the magic happens.

You can just have a massage that's beating on your muscles and might kinda feel

like it helps. But if you have that practitioner holding space for

you and really sort of creating that safe environment for

your body and your nervous system, that's where the magic happens.

Yeah. I'm mindful of the time, but

there are two two questions that I I have in mind that I'm

curious about. And I'm gonna say them out loud now so I don't forget. One

of which is this idea of collaborative care, which I wanna address second, but the

first I wanna talk about is, what happens long

term? So when when I've got clients come and see me for any issue, but

we'll we'll take pain because that's quite frankly the most common reason people come and

see me. I I really don't like the idea

of come back and see me once a month for the rest of your life,

and that that is very much the model for for good

reasons and for bad reasons. One, pain is tricky. It's

really hard to figure chronic pain out because there are so many

things. So in my practice, solving, resolving,

curing, having prevailed, we use that word, but getting rid of chronic pain, it's

hard. It's very hard to do. Mhmm. So I've kind of come to accept that

a lot of the time when I'm dealing with chronic pain clients,

there's a very high probability that it's going to require

ongoing care. Now I'm curious when it comes to to cannabis

use, is that something that's somewhat similar? It's like somebody comes in

with chronic pain. They've got this issue, insomnia what

whatever it is, anxiety. And they

realize that, okay, there's there's this herb. It's cannabis, and it can help me with

my pain. Is there ever a point when it's no

longer needed?

I think it really depends on like you said, because chronic pain is so

multifaceted. Right? It's not it's not just that it's an

injury. You know, it's the nervous system is involved. Our environments are

involved. And so, yeah, I do believe that there can

be a place when somebody might not need cannabis anymore. My sister actually

gives me a good example is, you know, she was using cannabis at night to

help her sleep, and then she really got into energy work and meditative

practices and breath work. And she said, I don't need

cannabis at night anymore. Amazing. Because you're

accessing your endocannabinoid system in a different way.

And so ultimately, I guess we kind of hope that somebody might not need

it forever because it could be that catalyst or that tool that

helps them engage in those other behaviors that support the endocannabinoid

system. Some of us with chronic conditions may need it forever. I know

it'll likely be a part of my life forever for insomnia, and I'm

I'm okay with that. But I think as our

life and our experience and our environment shift and change with us, our relationship with

cannabis is gonna change. And so we do have clients come back over

time and ask questions because their life has changed. And so

this is a tool that ebbs and flows with us possibly through our entire

life in places we might need more of it and times when we don't need

as much of it. And that's where we love that embodiment piece and really

teaching people to ebb and flow that dosing based on what's happening in their

lives. If you've had a really rough day or, you

know, your chronic pain is really high, then that makes sense. You're gonna increase that

dose. But cannabis can start to be that tool that helps us be able to

have the capacity to start to explore those relationships between symptoms

and environments and spirituality and family functioning and all those

pieces because we need a a stabilization first before we

can be really be introspective, and start to understand our

experiences. The word that you said is understand the

relationships between these different facets of our life. And and I like that word

for a second reason, and that's my experience has been

that we build relationships with all of the things which,

are regular parts of our life. Like we have a relationship with our food, we

have a relationship with diet. We have a relationship with these things that

aren't other people. And my experience, both with

myself and also with with friends and clients I've had who who have

cannabis as a part of their life is it is a

relationship that requires attending. Because if

you keep moving forward, assuming it's going to be in your

life the exact same way it was last year, that that's recipe

for my opinion, some some pretty crappy times because just like

any relationship, it changes. It changes depending on when was the last

time you saw your friend, when when how are you feeling. Right? So

treating it like a relationship and tending to it Mhmm. At like a relationship,

I think is also another way to ensure a long term

healthy use. Yeah. I like that how I like

framing it with a relationship because it very much is. It's a relationship that

changes a lot over time. My relationship with the plant continuously

changes. Mhmm. Mhmm. So the last

thing I wanna discuss with you is, this idea of collaborative care.

When when I have clients come in and I know that they're under the

influence of cannabis, or at least I suspect, it's not something I'm

going to ask outright necessarily. Mhmm. But if I suspect,

for myself, it's it's like, okay, great. Actually, this is going to help me out.

But as we discussed at the beginning of this conversation, there's weirdness with

rules and standards of practice and different modalities here and

there. But that being said is,

let's, let's paint a picture of an ideal world in which this doesn't

exist, in which, somebody could come into massage therapy

completely under the influence and the practitioner doesn't have to worry about

losing their license because they massage

somebody under. So let's paint this beautiful picture in which

collaborative care can exist. What sort of combinations,

do you think would be would be, like, really, really

helpful for clients? Let's go with dealing with with pain because, again, that's that's the

most Awesome. I have this, like, the most beautiful anecdotal,

sort of scenario to share with you about collaborative care. So

I had a chronic pain suffer, low back chronic pain,

got acupuncture on a regular basis. And how it

worked best for them is they had their sort of baseline dose of CBD.

And when that pain was worse, they could titrate in a very small amount

of THC to receive more pain relief, but not

feel intoxicated. CBD floods those cannabinoid

1 receptors in the brain blocking them. So it blocks them from

THC binding to them, creating a euphoric response, but allowing THC to

bind, you know, in small areas of the brain and elsewhere to create pain

relief without euphoria. And so this worked well for them. You

know, they they had a very busy lifestyle. They didn't have room to be

stoned during the day, let's say. And so they consume their dose

1 hour before they go to their acupuncture appointment. They're on the

acupuncturist's table, and they realize, oh,

I'm high. Wait a second. I'm high.

And what happens in acupuncture is we boost the cannabinoid 1 receptors

in the brain. So we have more THC binding. The individual feels

euphorically high during acupuncture. Not, like,

not ideal by any means, you know, driving in all those pieces. So she

ends up waiting it out in the office until she felt euphoric state go away

and was felt safe to drive. She comes back to me and is able to

report that she had her best pain relief for 3 weeks following that treatment.

Wow. Don't you wanna study that? I do.

Yes. Definitely. Isn't that fascinating?

That's super fascinating. Mhmm. Wow. Or, you know,

like, being able to use, like, cannabis topical with massage.

Would we have greater outcomes? Or maybe even that

person's on the table under the influence of a responsible dose

of cannabis. Do we have greater efficacy with that massage? Because

instead of tensing against that pressure, they're able to sink

into it or, you know, that we're able to calm that nervous system. That

plant is helping them put them into rest and digest. Then can that therapy

complement them even further. Right. That that's the case so often

is when we go in for for a treatment. Say you're on

the table for an hour, but the mind is, like, doing whatever it is for

half of that. So you're paying for an hour, but you're really only experiencing

half an hour because you're whereas on the other hand, if cannabis is

involved, it's like the end of that hour, you're like, is that 5 hours? You

know? Yeah. Where you can, like, stick into the experience. Right?

We change we can I always say you kinda jump off that, you know, the

hamster wheel? We can use cannabis in that sense, and that actually

speaks pretty profoundly, like, in the Hindi

religion, when cannabis is paired with meditation, it becomes

the upbringer of freedom, the giver of joy, and the source of happiness.

But often, for many, meditation is really feels hard

to not that it's not accessible, right, with our busy minds.

So if we can use this plant in an intentional way, help us

tap into our bodies, have us tap into that meditation practice. And that's sort

of what you described. Right? That that bring our freedom, that giver

of joy. And that's always massively resonated for me for my bring our

freedom for my insomnia. Yeah. That's beautiful.

So I'm going to ask you the last question, which I ask

everybody, that's a guest on the podcast. And it's more of a

general question. So you you as a a practitioner, right, you're you're

a nurse. You see a lot of patients and clients, and I'm sure you have

also received a lot of treatments. So with all of that in mind,

in your opinion, what makes a practitioner really

successful?

It's it's that intention that it's it's like if there

there as a practitioner, once we're aligned with our purpose, if that

practitioner is aligned with their purpose, that's when that treatment becomes

incredibly powerful. And I think another piece to that is

that when that practitioner is able to be that powerful,

it's also because they're caring for themselves. They have that capacity to

care for others because they care for themselves. And

so we're leading by that sort of that example so that when that

person walks in that's maybe feeling very vulnerable or dysregulated,

as a practitioner, we have that capacity to hold space for that.

Beautiful. Beautiful. I love it. Thank you so much. This was

a very wonderful conversation, very enlightening, and

just just an enjoyable chat from one end to the other. So thank you so

much for your time. You're so welcome. Thanks for having me.

Sure thing.