Well, good evening and welcome to Crowd Church. Great to be with you this
evening. My name is Matt, and beside me on my left I have the beautiful Anna.
Anna, good evening.
Good evening, everyone. Nice to be here again.
Yeah, it is.
It really is good to be here. Good to have you. And on my Right, is equally
beautiful, Dave Connolly.
Oh, thank you. It's great to be here.
Oh, so that was an interesting shot there of the corner of my ear.
I was going to say someone's knocked the camera.
Yeah, I reckon that would have been Dan.
It wasn't me.
I definitely wasn't me. I haven't moved. Oh, it's all getting already—
they're all taking responsibility.
There's Dave, not to be confused with me or Matt. Yeah, yeah.
And it's just, I just felt like Adam in the garden.
Did you?
Well, in the sense of it wasn't my fault, it was Eve's. I'm just like, it wasn't
my fault, it was Dan's.
Yeah.
Straight away. If you're listening to this on the podcast, by the way, catching
up and you're wondering what is going on, the cameras just got bashed. And so
when we went to Dave's shop, it wasn't Dave, it was Anna's ear. Anyway, we're
back to normal. Good to be with you all. Make sure you say hi in the comments as
we will love to hear from you. Let us know where you're watching from in the
world. What things are going on. And of course, today is a very special day,
Dave. Today is Father's Day.
It is?
It is. And, uh, I, I quite enjoy— I was talking about it earlier— first time
ever on Father's Day all my kids are out of England.
Wow.
I don't know what that says.
It either says you're a really bad dad or you're a really good dad and you've
launched them well. I'll go with the latter.
Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna take that.
Yeah, yeah, it's okay.
It's all right, it's all right. So if my kids are watching, which I highly doubt
because they hear my voice enough— uh, all right, kids. Um, but yeah, if you're
a dad, happy Father's Day. Uh, I know Father's Day is not easy for everybody,
um, but I'd like— I think it's good to celebrate Father's Day where we can, just
because God is Father, right?
Yeah.
And so, um, yeah, whatever relationship you did or didn't have with your dad,
uh, you can have a great relationship with God as Father, and it's probably just
worth saying that.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that's so true.
Fantastic. All right, well, on that bombshell, um, should we get on with it? So
today Dave is speaking. Uh, we're going to start— we're talking about Jesus
being the revolutionary. That's the whole series that we're in, and we're
starting a sort of little subsection. Can I say that?
Subsection?
The subsection?
Uh, you can say what you like, you've got the mic.
That's true. Yeah. I can, although Dan's got the power because he can turn me
off at any point. Um, and so yeah, so anyway, we've got this little subsection
going on where we're going to start to look at, um, the community that Jesus
sort of calls and brings together. And so tonight we're looking at the calling
of the disciples.
We are.
And what Jesus did there, what we can learn from it in today's world and for
ourselves, for our own lives. We're going to get into all of that. So that's
kind of where we are as we go through. If you have any questions, thoughts,
write them in the comments, because after the talk, we all 3 of us, we kind of
talk about the talk. We call it conversation stream, and we go through any
questions that you've put in the comments that we can answer on the, on the live
stream. We will do that. So yeah, we will quite happily do. Let me just go, in
fact, to the comments. We've got Lady Burkeby. Hi, Lady Burkeby. Hi, Ade. Hi,
Ellis. Alice says, sorry, I'm late. It's 2 minutes past.
He's not missed anything important yet, has he?
I mean, let's be honest.
You'll be forgiven. Basically just technical problems.
It's not a problem. We've on the mobile, we've got Alicia. We've got Julie, Mrs.
Connolly. So no pressure, but the wife's, the wife's watching.
It'll be good.
You've got to be on your best behaviour, Dave.
So good evening, everybody that is in the comments. Sharon's in the comments as
well, and obviously Crowd Church is in the comments. Roz is in the comments.
Roz, good evening. Uh, it's great that you're all joining us from around the
world, no doubt, uh, on this beautifully hot day here in the UK. But without
further ado, um, we will hand over to Dave, who is, uh— I sent Dave a card on
Father's Day. I've mentioned this before, haven't I, on the show? I always give
you a card on Father's Day.
You do.
Dave's like my spiritual dad, and so I'm all— I'm very grateful for this man
who's an absolute legend. And gives a lot to crowd, don't you? And you're so
into it. And, um, so always love to hear what Dave has to say. So let's, without
further ado, hand over to Dave, and then Anna and I will be back with Dave for
Conversation Street after this.
Cue Dave. Good evening, folks, and it's great to be here. I am on Father's Day,
and just one thought on Father's Day. I was preaching on, um, Fatherhood: God's
Design, um, this morning at a wonderful church called Open Well. And in
preparing for that, I, I got this real revelation, and that was, you know, until
we really grasp the fatherhood of God, there'll always be a part of us where we
live like orphans.
Oh, love that.
You know, and it was— and, and it is such a pain. I mean, you know, for me, I
didn't have, you know, opposed to dad in my life. Um, probably did his best from
his brokenness. Well, because of the ongoing going with the Holy Spirit in my
life, I was able to help lead them to Jesus. I don't think you can do that
unless you get a hold of a good design of fatherhood. And it is real, the pain
and things, but that's not this evening's talk.
That's all for free, is it?
Yeah, that's just a throwaway. Yeah, that's just a sidebar. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
buy myself some time. Yeah, I'm wanting to change the talk slightly. Same topic,
but just our approach to it, you know. Um, we're talking about how Jesus starts
to gather these guys, gather his community, and, um, but you know, this is a
call that changes everything. Yeah, it changes everything for these guys. And,
um, we're going to be— if you've got your Bibles, um We're going to be looking
in the Gospel of Mark, and, um, we're going to look at chapter 1, verse 16 to
20, and we'll reference chapter 3, verse 13 to 19. And, um, I love the different
writers and what they bring.
Yeah.
Mark, there's always— when you read Mark's Gospel, there's a real urgency, and,
um, that you don't pick up in the same way in the other gospels. So here in this
story, and we're not talking about science fiction, but you know, we took the
story, um, of this. Jesus is walking along the shoreline, okay, um, and it's the
Sea of Galilee where he's walking, and he saw some ordinary fishermen going
about their daily work, ordinary people doing a daily job. And we got Simon
Peter, Andrew, James, and John, and they're mending their nets, they're doing
fisherman stuff, and they're just probably expecting another hard day's toil.
And Jesus spoke two life-changing words to them. He says, "Follow me." And
that's Mark 1:17. The two words that jump out here— follow me— everything
changes on what they do or do not do. And, um, you know, you— we just need to
appreciate that at this time, um, the Jews were expecting a messiah. They
probably weren't expecting him to come as in the form of Jesus, okay? Yeah, you
know, according to— they're probably expecting some warrior or um, rebel type of
thing. Mark's Gospel has got its own style in how he tries to communicate, um,
to us the story of what is going on. And one word, um, that appears, um, a
number of times, um, in this gospel is immediately or at once. Um, and it's like
the writer is like, we God knows where your heart is, so you can respond to
this, you know. And sometimes we forget that, you know, God goes before us.
Yeah.
And he is speaking to us, he is preparing the way for us. And, um, those two—
it's mainly in two places directly, and it's in verse 18 and verse 20. And it
says, um, that those Men who become the 12, who become part of the disciples, it
says they responded to Jesus immediately. And you know, there's sometimes in our
lives when we hear something and we perceive it that this is true, this is of
God, and we then start thinking, well, maybe I just need to think that through,
otherwise I'm being reckless, And you know, I probably would err towards
probably the reckless side, if you know me.
Mm-hmm.
But for me, when I know the truth, I don't really have to pray about it a whole
lot. I'll pray, "God, strengthen me, give me the grace to do it." But you know,
I want to encourage us to learn to know the voice of God, the prompting of God,
the moving of the Holy Spirit, and act on it. And it says this, "They left their
nets, their boats," Excuse me. And even the security of their family business to
follow him. It meant them leaving something of cost behind. And, um, sometimes,
you know, when I hear the gospel being preached, that is missing. And that
concerns me greatly when I don't hear people talking about the cost of following
Christ, because we can say that Jesus paid it all. He did. But in following,
there's a daily sacrifice of walking after him and walking with him. You know,
so it's not supposed to be dead easy. There is a cost involved, and I think
that's wonderful. The response that you see from these men, it's not impulsive.
It was a recognition that they recognized the authority of Christ Jesus. Amen.
They recognized the authority of the Messiah. In the ancient world, you know,
students would normally choose their rabbi, and like there's 3 stages mainly of
education, but students would mainly choose their own rabbi. Here, something
revolutionary happens.
Hey!
I had to get it in. Jesus rabbi, the rabbi chooses his students, and that's not
just to be different. As you see the story between Jesus and the disciples, it
is significantly different, so you need a significantly different call. What
encourages us about this passage is that Jesus chooses ordinary people. He
didn't begin with religious experts, political leaders, and celebrities. He
chose ordinary people, and, you know, I think if I was at a message, I want to
get into the world, and I had to pick a handful of men, I'm not sure I would
have picked any of these, you know, because they were just ordinary, and they
weren't great men of significance in one sense, But isn't that great for us, you
know, that God still uses ordinary people? We have a God who takes ordinary
people and uses them to do supernatural things, amazing things, extraordinary
things. God always, it seems, to delight in using ordinary people because, you
know, then the focus isn't on what these people can do. The focus is on what God
has done. Paul reminds us in 1 Corinthians 12— I'm sorry, 1 Corinthians 1:27—
how God chose the foolish things, you know, to shame the wise. God chose the
weak things of the world to shame the strong. It's just to keep the emphasis on
God and not on man. Maybe, um, you might this evening, if you don't know the
Lord Jesus, or maybe you're walking with God, but you feel unqualified. You
might even feel overlooked or insignificant. The calling of the disciples
clearly, clearly, clearly reminds us that Jesus sees far more than we see about
ourselves. When we often in church will say, "God has got a plan," He has, and
that plan starts and finishes with relationship, relationship with him. He sees
our potential. I'm not a big lover of the word potential because we just seem to
say the word and get stuck there rather than moving into it. God sees the call
that he has placed on our lives. He sees how he can work in us and through us he
sees his purposes being fulfilled through us. We are invited into, um,
partnership. And these fishermen would have known about partnership because they
would have been part of a larger community of partnership fishermen. Yeah. Um,
Jesus didn't invite these guys just to accompany him. You know, as, um,
somewhere in on the outer echelons. He invites them right into his life and he
says, come, follow me. That meant walking with him, walking closely with him.
And I don't really think, you know, in the 21st century we understand walking
anymore. Um, I think I may have said before on Crowd Church, I am— when we were
at Frontline many years ago, there's a picture. I used to see a guy Every week
at a certain time, and we used to walk around the Mystery, which is a large park
in Liverpool. And in this picture, it's snowing, and we didn't know this picture
was being taken of us, but the snow's coming down and you can see this guy's
talking, and I'm walking side on, and I'm just looking at his face, looking at
his lips, you know, um, when people talk, we need to look at them so we've got
their attention. And I was really interested in what he was saying. It wasn't
just about me fixing him, and you get that with walking. You don't get that when
you're just jumping in the car for a few minutes. I think it's just a completely
different thing. Um, I want to— I'd encourage us to find a way of rediscovering
walking with people and talking and sharing and listening 'Cause that's what
Jesus invited those early disciples into. They were some of the key things. He
says, "Come follow me and I will make you." Wasn't just come follow me and we'll
have this great holy uddle. You know what, we can have a small group. It's gonna
be great, Andrew. It's gonna be absolutely fantastic. Gonna get together every
week, we'll do all these great things. We'll read our Bible, we'll eat, we might
break bread together, and we'll sing some songs maybe. Um, but it wasn't just
that. And he said, but I will make you— is the purpose— fishers of men. So he's
talking to fishermen. So his illustration is about fish, which makes sense,
doesn't it? It's not worth him talking about building or farming. He talks, you
know, it's relevant. The illustration is relevant for them. And he's not just
saying we'll go fishing, he's saying I will make you I will make you fishers of
men. And I think, um, we need to understand that, that this gospel that we
receive, and as we receive it, the understanding and part of the cost is that we
will also share it. Excuse me. So whilst these disciples may be ordinary people,
he has a plan for them. I will make you fishers of men. I will make you. It's
not about your efforts, it's not about how how busy you can make yourself, he
says, I will make you. What he's saying, I will empower you, and as I empower
you, you— A disciple is all about modeling what you see in your rabbi as you
walk with him. Transformation is in Christ's hand. He brings about
transformation in us. The disciples didn't need to do it in their own strength.
Their own power or in their own desire. They just needed to surrender their
lives to Christ, to walk with him, to watch, to listen, to do what he did. And
the same is true for us as we become followers of Christ. You know, um, we just
need to walk. It's not about effort. You know, when we just try and make
ourselves busy doing God things, I think if you've done it for any period of
time, we just get tired. And we may think we have all the right motives, but I
want to say to you, walk with him, and as you walk with Christ, you'll want to
share the things of Christ with others in your life. You know, Jesus didn't do a
quick, "Let's just do a quick interview on these guys, and let's see if you're
bright enough, clever enough," Do you speak well enough? Are you going to upset
everybody? Or are you going to woo them? Are you going to kill them? He doesn't.
He calls them, because it's all about Jesus. He sees a hunger in them, and he
calls them to himself. And they follow. They leave behind, and they follow him.
And for some folks, We believe, but we don't leave behind. We have too much of
our past in our presence that is not surrendered to God. Does that make sense?
Mm-hmm. We have too much of our past in our presence. And, you know, um,
obviously we can't just leave everything behind in one sense, you know, we have
responsibilities, you know, but it can be surrendered to Christ. And we can
bring Christ right into the center of it. Um, so, you know, um, it's not merely
about believing in Jesus, it's about following, it's about living a life that
demonstrates him. That's the whole thing about being part of a community. They
contribute, they share, they have something, um, to contribute to a relationship
is made up of, um, different parts, isn't it? Different people playing their
role. And how amazing it is that we've got Peter, you know. I just think having
Peter in any group is going to keep you on your toes. It's going to teach you
grace. Oh, you know, and, and I thank God that Peter is in that group. It
brings— gives me grace, hope, you know, for myself. Um, But he takes them as
they are, and he tells them who they are in him. He says to them, "Come, follow
me, be like me." And Jesus, as a rabbi, inputs them. He shares all that he has.
They see all these different areas of Jesus's life, and they are part of it. And
I love it. I think I've said it before. They see him when he's tired. What is
Jesus' response to tiredness? Sleep. Yeah.
Come and si.
Do you see him when he's stressed? What is his thing? Come aside and pray. All
these different responses they will have seen with Jesus, because Jesus models
it to them, and Jesus' expectation is for them to do the same, to copy him. I
just want to say something about these guys. You know, we People often say about
Christians, 'Well, you were just a loser.' I don't have any problem identifying
with that. Going nowhere, going there fast, you know. But Jesus came for the
lost. Lost. If you can't identify that you were lost, even if you had everything
or if you had nothing, well then it's very hard to encounter Christ. But you
know, let me just tell you something about these guys. James and John, we're
told, left behind a successful fishing business. They were successful in what
they did. Their father had hired servants. They're part of a fishing, like,
cooperative. They had real security. They had something to leave behind that was
going to cost them. And there was no plan. There was no return plan, by the way.
There was no return plan.
No.
You know what they did, and it's true for any of us today, is that they
surrendered themselves. They put their trust in following Jesus. And that is
true of us, whether we have much or whether we have little. The question for us
today is, what are the nets? You know, it says that they put down the nets.
Maybe the question for us today is, what are the nets that Jesus is asking you
and I to leave behind? You know, when we hear the gospel message, lots of
people, they say, "Oh, well, I would do if I was good enough," or whatever, you
know, and they try and make themselves better, or they think about all the
different situations, a marriage, a family, I know, a sickness, a disease, a
whole host of things. I'll just work on those, and when I get them sorted, then
I will follow. Well, you know, it's— we have— you had to hear the call to
follow, and the appropriate response is that they responded immediately. So what
are— maybe what are the nets that we have in our life? Maybe For some of us,
perhaps it's fear.
Yeah.
Perhaps it's pride. Perhaps it's comfort. Perhaps it's self-reliance. Okay, and
those four things, we all encounter them in real life. Perhaps it's a
distraction that has slowly taken place in our lives that hinder us from
following God. Maybe you have encountered God in some measure, But you know,
when we have unsurrendered areas in our lives, I'm telling you, it only goes one
way, and that's not towards God. You know, I am— for the first 2 years I became
a Christian, I have to say I experienced the goodness of God in my life. But
there was one area in my life, um, that I hadn't surrendered to God. I wasn't
struggling with it, but I knew it was there, and, and I knew I hadn't
surrendered it. And after about 18 months or nearly 2 years, one day this thing
just popped its head up and I knew it wasn't surrendered. And I turned my back
on Christ, and for about 18 months I went off and I was in a worse place than
what I was before. The reality is we need to not be perfect. Hear me, it's not
about being perfect, it's about being surrendered. And maybe that's another
talk. Mm. You know, um, don't allow distractions in your life to say, well, you
can't follow Christ because of this, you've got this, you've got that. They
heard the call and they put down their nets. Jesus continues to call people to
radical discipleship. We're talking about this being Jesus the revolutionary.
There's nothing ordinary about being a revolutionary. There's nothing ordinary
about being a Christian. You know, to follow Christ, there is something about
standing up You see it repeatedly in the New Testament, both standing up and
speaking out. And yes, by all means, I totally agree with folks who say we make
our lives count, we're salt and light. Absolutely, totally agree. But you can't
leave out that we have to literally share verbally with people the love of God.
How can we not tell people about if we fall in love, we tell everybody. I
remember when I met Julie, um, Julie was really young when I met her, and, um, I
remember, like, you know, I couldn't shut up. You know, you know when you fall
in love, you just bore the pants off everybody else, don't you? Well, when you
have children, everybody's seen your baby, or 450,000 photographs. They're happy
with the first 5.
Or the first one.
Or the first one. More tolerant than that, but, uh, you know what I mean? Um,
Well, because we're passionate about it, aren't we? You know, and you can't hold
yourself back by saying, 'I've got a new boyfriend or husband,' um, or whatever.
And, and that's how we need to be about Christ, because he's impacted our lives
so wonderfully.
Yes.
You know, and Jesus continuing to radically call men and women to discipleship.
And I don't mean people who are pastors, whatever that means, or missionaries,
or church leaders, or this or that. I'm talking about ordinary men and women who
Jesus loves, and he calls them into a living relationship so that they can be
who God has called them, whether that's in the university or in the factory or
wherever. Let me try and land this by saying all of us need to know what it is
to respond when God speaks to us. Yeah. And if you're not yet a Christian, I
want— I really want to say to you this evening, there's an invitation. Jesus
gave an invitation, okay, to those early disciples, and that same invitation is
true for you and I, and it is real today. And in the same ways that Jesus came
and walked with those disciples. He longs to walk with you.
Yeah.
He longs to draw near to you. It's not known about some distant, far-off God.
The question is not whether Jesus is calling. The question is whether you're
willing to respond. The church is built— is built on an unlikely foundation of
ordinary people. It's about people. It's not about buildings. You know, wherever
we are this evening, whatever you do, whatever your story may be, Jesus sees
you.
Mm.
And he loves you exactly where you are, going through exactly what you're going
through. And he says, come, follow me.
Mm. Wonderful. Thank you, chief.
Pleasure.
I was— the reason I was smiling when you were saying that is someone wrote in
the comments, I'm gonna get straight into it because I was looking at the
comments earlier. Someone wrote in the comments, uh, God hates me, too much bad
luck and too much stress. And so, and obviously you'd not seen these comments.
No.
Um, while she was speaking, uh, too busy looking at your own notes, I feel. Um,
but yeah, it's interesting how, how you sort of finished on that. Um, God hates
me lately, too much bad luck and too much stress. What would you say to that?
First of all, God doesn't hate you, okay? God doesn't hate you. He sent his one
and only Son to die for you, and that wasn't on condition. He came to seek and
save the lost, not for those who he already had or those who already believe.
You know, I want to tell you, when you— if you're thinking God hates you that
has not come from God. You need to know that God loves you. He loves you so
much. The scripture said that he sent his only son, yeah, to die in your place,
in my place, to carry my sin, my brokenness. He loves you. Don't fall for that
lie. That is a lie to keep you separated from God.
So true, isn't it? And again, it comes back to the whole conversation you were
talking about in terms of calling. Like, God chose this sort of ragtag bunch of
people. So it's not based on performance.
No.
It's not based on skill level. It's definitely not based on education level. Um,
but there's still that calling, isn't there? And there's another comment
actually that's come in a couple of times I want to just pick up. This idea that
Jesus was a Greco-Roman myth. Um, and it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because
yes, he was in— he's from ancient times, but I'd say it came more out of Jewish
theology Graeco-Roman mythology. But I can see, um, to totally answer the
question, uh, there was, after the resurrection of Christ, a crossover. So you
could say that some of the Christian art started to use some of the pagan
iconography. But the fascinating thing, the reason why I wanted to bring that up
right at the start, again going back to your point, Dave, was if Jesus was a
myth, which I've I fully don't think that he was. There's way too much evidence.
But if Jesus was a myth, there's no way these guys would have followed him to
their death, right? If it was all based on a lie, if it was all based on a myth,
there's no way that Peter would have gone through and endured, or Paul would
have gone through and endured what they went through. You, you wouldn't do that
for a lie. And the fact that they endured that to me is actually quite a telling
part of this story. And it all kind of kickstarts right here in these fishing
boats. And, uh, and I love this imagery. I'll make you fishers of men.
But I'm sure as you guys have, you know, been, you know, growing up— I know, and
you've grown up in and around church, you know, we, we hear people saying, well,
Jesus is just a myth, he's just this Well, I have spent many hours, because, you
know, I have to teach on some of these things. You know, the evidence for Jesus
is overwhelming. Even people who don't believe in him would say, you know,
there's more documentation that Jesus existed than Napoleon Bonaparte's.
Yeah.
It's, you know, it's huge. But it's easy to get caught up on that, because I
would have to say, if he's a myth, who is this that has totally transformed my
life? Yeah, yeah. Who is this that is now living in my life?
Yeah, you know. No, it's a fair question. It is a fair question. So let's get
into it. Calling thoughts and comments, Miss Anna.
Yeah, I just thought there was like so much in that, um, in that talk tonight,
Dave. Thank you for it. I, I I loved, I love what you had to say about that kind
of sense of urgency, like drop your nets, come and follow me. And it's not like
a, in a couple of weeks when you've sorted a few things out, you've talked to
the wife, you've got all your assets in place, you've kind of, you know, worked
out all the logistics. It's like immediate. It's like just drop everything and
come follow me. And, and they do it. That's the incredible thing. Like I think,
wow, if Jesus was standing in front of some of us, would we just drop everything
and come? Yeah. No, it's challenging, isn't it?
It is.
Just like that, drop everything you're doing. You know, they were fishermen.
They weren't religious leaders, people of their time, were they? They had a
profession. They had, you know, families to feed, you know, money to make on the
fishing boats. And, you know, how— Yeah, how quick would we be to drop
everything? I sometimes think, oh gosh.
It's a really good point, isn't it?
Yeah.
Because I— and I love the imagery of the net, right? So they let go of their
nets. Their nets are symbolic, isn't it? That's their living, that's their
livelihood. It's what they know. It's what they've done day in, day out. It's a
security. It's like, this is how they do life. And so actually the call of
Christ is to not necessarily abandon like you don't have to quit your job or any
of that, but to actually go, no, I'm, I'm gonna follow you. I'm— everything that
I know and think may still be true tomorrow, but I'm going to subject everything
I know and think to your lead. Yeah.
Right? Yeah. So, and can I ask you a question? Yeah, I know you grew up in
church. Like, for everybody, there's a moment, isn't there, when that wherever
you are, you hear something that changes your thinking to bring you to a place
of surrender or committal to Christ.
What was that?
What did— because they hear the call.
Yeah.
What I'm asking is, what was that call like for you?
I suppose for me it was different to that, that moment that the disciples had
because I'd grown up in church culture and going to church with my parents. Um,
so I think for me it was coming of age really because being like a late teenager
and sort of thinking for the first time, do I just go to church because my
parents take me? Yeah. And told me I have to go every week, or do I go because I
want to do it? And am I going to continue to go when I, you know, so when I was
18 and I left home to go to university and came up to Liverpool first time,
suddenly it's like, no one's gonna make me go to church. What do I really think
here? Do I really believe in God? And if so, why? And have I encountered him
personally? And honestly, at that point, I don't know if I had, but certainly in
that first year of going to university, and, you know, I didn't do a physical
Alpha course, but I did read the book because I wanted to answer some of those
questions, like, how can you be sure the, you know, Bible's true? Is Jesus
really real? How can you know? Did the cross really— like, I wanted some of
those answers. And I'd definitely encourage, just going off-piste here, but
anybody who's got questions like that one about, is Jesus really real? And how
can we know? Do the Alpha course. It's a few weeks of your life, and you've
nothing to lose if Jesus isn't real.
Absolutely, yeah.
But actually, it goes through a lot of that evidence in that case for Jesus. And
for me, that was quite life-changing. But I also think, so some of it was that
and getting my own understanding right. But actually, a lot of it was a heart
change as well. And being like, actually, when I put this into practice, Jesus
meeting me there in some, like, really practical, real ways. It's like, oh, and
so I think for me it was a bit more of a process, but it was like choosing to
go, okay, God, I— and I do remember thinking when I, when I first went to uni,
okay, I don't know if this is real, but I'm gonna go all out with it and see.
Yeah.
And if it works, it works, and if not, never mind, I'll, you know, sack it off.
But I'm gonna, like, fully check it out before I've been at it. Yeah. And of
course I never binned it because the more I looked into it, the more I was like
convinced. And also the more I knew of God and tasted of God, the more— yeah, I
couldn't look back. Yeah. And I never have.
Yeah. So yeah, it's great.
This is a really good point. It's a really good point, isn't it? And it's that,
that sense of, um, that sense of call, isn't it? Like what you said about
purpose, the purpose, you know, I'm calling you, you're going to be fishers of
men. So it's like I'm calling you to something. This is not a kind of, you know,
a sort of a— we don't know what's—
It's not self-indulgence.
Yeah, it's not. So that's a good point. It is really not self-indulgence. This
is not about you all of a sudden. No, this is about impact. This is about, um,
and actually being fishers of men. I— the language I would use is this is all
about growing God's kingdom. This is all about the kingdom of heaven versus the
kingdom of Matt. Yeah, right. Um, and so I, I think your purpose then becomes
bigger than you are, and then this is what you end up giving your life to. Yeah,
right. Um, did you— going back to your example, Anna, did you sense that purpose
in those early days when you were doing the Alpha course and stuff? How did that
come about?
Yeah, I think I did. Um, I think I sensed God's call. Um, I think even coming to
Liverpool, it was quite— it's quite a long story, but just the way everything
fell into place.
Yeah.
And it wasn't really another option of university courses I could do, and it was
just very clearly God. In the months that kind of preceded me going to
university, like, all the— yeah, all the routes just led to one place very
clearly. And so I did really feel God's hand in sort of, and his direction and
his kind of leading to that, to that place. Um, I don't know if that answers the
question, but I— yeah, I think it, it is a process. But it— yeah, there was
definitely, there was a sense of call and God calling me to a certain place. And
then I think once I was starting to experience God for myself and spend time in
church and read my Bible more, and it became more personal and real to me. The
overflowing is interesting that he talks about. I'll make you fishers of men,
because responding to that call, it changed the way I saw the people around me.
Like, I would look at the friends in my—
Yeah.
And just, yeah, other friends who were like students at the time, and they're
very broken and very— yeah, just, I don't know. And my heart really broke for
some of them because I, I was like Yeah, and it was like— and I— there was a
sense of urgency, like, suddenly about this thing that God is doing in your
life. You, you need to share this with other people. They need it too. They're
broken. And, yeah, you know, I— yeah, it, it was, it was, um, yeah, it was very
real at that time, I think. And it's been real other times as well. But I think
there was that real sense of that calling. But there was also, you know, there
is also a cost, isn't there? It's like you've— there's— and I love that you said
that as well, Dave, because there is a cost. And I think often in Christianity
we can, you know, we can be, we can be guilty in church, can't we, of absolutely
preaching a weak gospel that's like, come to Jesus and he'll make you happier
and yeah, give— prosper you. And there's a lot of prosperity gospel that's been
out there. Absolutely. And, um, it's not the full story, and there's cost as
well. And so I really love that you said that because it's a cost, but I've
never found that it's not worth it.
That's right.
And that's the thing.
Well, and it's like, we're happy to pay a cost for something we feel is valuable
or of value, you know. And, um, you know, what— what reason why I was asking you
that, Anne, was that, you know, I was just thinking about, you know, when he's
saying about, I'll make you fishes of men, um, you know, he's actually speaking
to them in a language that they understood. And what he's doing, he's saying, so
I am going to repurpose all the skills you have, all the things you have. I am
going to use them, and I'm going to use them in— and I'm going to use a language
so you understand. So we're not going to be— we're not going to go fishing for
fish anymore.
Yeah.
But we are going to go and fish. We are going to go and gather souls, lost
souls, and you know, and you understand something about the toil that— I love
this fisherman, the toil that's involved. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's not
going up like with your rod. These nets are throwing, there's patience. They
know, they, you know, they know the skills of fishing that are required. But
although that the language he's talking to them, he's trying to reach them not
because they are simple, but to speak a language that they understand.
Yeah.
So He takes their skills and their time, and he completely repurposes them. And
I think for us, you know, that just says, you know, wherever I am, with whoever
I'm with, you know, whatever skills and talents I have, God will use that to
draw people to him, if I am surrendered, if I have answered that call, as Anita
was saying.
That's a really important point, isn't it? It's like, Um, like when COVID hit,
it was in my wheelhouse to go, well, let's just livestream the service. And this
is, you know, the start of Crowd Church in many ways, wasn't it? It was just
like it just all began. It's like God takes your talents and understandings and
he uses them for his purposes and for his kingdom. And that's in effect what the
calling is. You don't have to go out and learn a whole new skill set.
Absolutely right.
It's not like you've got to go to a specific school to learn a specific thing.
Maybe, I don't know, unless God leads you that way. But I think on the whole,
um, I'm reminded of the parable of the talents where the, you know, the sort of
the guys have 5 and 10 and 1, and it's like that it's all what you do with what
you've been given, isn't it?
And how you do it. I love that bit that Dave talked about, um, I will make you.
Yeah.
So I will make you fishers of men.
Yeah.
And it's the God will do the work. God will make you. It's not, yeah, it's not a
striving, it's a surrender. And I, I love that, and I thought it was such an
important point because we can think, oh, I'm, you know, I so often hear people
say, and we hear it a lot in Crowd Church, don't we, like, oh, I don't know if
I'm ready to become a Christian yet, I'm not good enough, or I don't know if I
can do it. And it's like, it's not you doing it. Yeah, it's God doing it in you.
And that's the thing, like, we're never ready, aren't we?
Absolutely.
You know, we've all being Christians around the table for a long, long time.
Yeah.
And we're still not good enough, and we're still not ready in many ways, but God
takes us anyway, and he, he makes us, and he transforms us, and he does it. And
it's so—
it's not—
it's that surrender posture, not striving and effort and self-effort.
And it's important.
Yeah.
You find that the longer you're walking in your Christian faith, the more
reliant on God's grace you become. It's an interesting question because I think
you go one of two ways, don't you? Maybe every day it's different. Yeah. Um, one
day you're kind of like, yeah, I really know, I'm, you know, it's God's grace,
God's making me, God's doing it in me. But the next day it's like, right, let's
go! I mean, it's all about sort of self—
yeah, I know what the right answer is.
Challenge accepted.
Give us both.
I feel like, um, I feel like I am a natural lead. Like, I'm quite a doer. My
natural lean is into self-effort and striving, and like, I can make stuff
happen. I'm capable, I've got competencies, I lean into them. Yeah, I'll make
this happen. Yeah. Um, but I think when I don't lean on God, I'm— I think what's
happened over time is I've become much quicker at recognizing when I'm not.
Yeah, when I'm not depending on God. Like, I used to let it not realized for a
long time. And now I think the length of time, yeah, is shorter, and I think
that's great. Yeah, yeah.
And God knows, yeah, doesn't he? You know, I mean, you're a very resourceful
lady, and I think it's as we learn to be in— I love that word, love the word
posture— in a place where we are daily, um, just position ourselves where our
gifts and our talents are surrendered for him to use in whatever way he wants
to. And, um, and I think it's learning. I said, we've been Christians a while,
and I think we would all say, you know what it is to be busy, you know, and to
try harder. All you get is tired.
Yeah.
You know, that doesn't mean that you don't engage, please hear me, you know,
because God wants to use us in the right sense. He doesn't want to misuse us.
And Like when Anne was telling, um, doing a story about that, you know, she
said, um, in a process that she was reading, you know, and that she was reading
around the Alpha Course, but she was also reading scripture. Yeah. And, you
know, somebody said to me, um, numerous times in the last couple of years, um,
I've got some people say, what, how, you know, what, you know, what do we do?
And, um, and I said to them this, and I don't think it's I don't think this is
mine. I probably stole this from somebody else, but I believe it's true. And
that is, I'd say stay in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, the Gospels, for 2
years. Just read them and you'll get to know the character of Jesus. And that's
the character he's trying to work into you and I.
Yeah.
And the attitudes that go with that, you know, that takes great discipline.
And we get disciple and discipline But it's interesting again, because coming
back to this concept of grace, isn't it, that, you know, God makes me a
fisherman and man, but at the same time there needs to be discipline. And it's
not like I can just— it doesn't just come down and go, you know, easy whizzy,
let's get busy. It's like there has— there's this partnership, isn't there?
Yeah. Where it's, it's not, um, laziness on my part, but it's not self-effort.
And that's a real interesting tightrope to walk.
But I loved what Dave said about, um, that, that with the disciples, it was
walking and talking and eating and breaking bread with Jesus day by day by day.
Totally.
And that is what was transformational. And I think it's the same for us.
Yes.
Like, we, we walk with God, we talk to God, we break bread with God, we read the
Bible. We do, we do these practices not out of obligation or because anyone says
we have to.
Yeah.
But because it's just part of that walking with Jesus day by day. And, you know,
I love what you said about how it's like walking with him that was
transformational. It wasn't, you know, there's something about it that's like
that day by day. Yeah, kind of seeing how he does it, watching how he does it.
And there's that, there's that verse, isn't there, about like learning and force
rhythms of grace? I can't remember where it's from now, but—
Oh, that's about Message translation.
Yeah, it is. But it talks about like like, look, watch me, learn from me, see
how I do it, and you'll learn the unforced rhythms of grace. And I think, yeah,
that, that is one of my favorite verses really, because I think you could spend
your whole life, yeah, like, just learning more of that, like, watching how
Jesus does it, learning from him, and learning those unforced rhythms of grace,
which are the antidote to striving and self-effort and trying to do it for
yourself.
And he never kicked anybody else for failing. No, you know, for me it wasn't. He
saw them as they were. And I know somebody's probably thinking, oh, you know,
I'm sure that's not right. It is right, because, you know, grace— there's
sufficient grace for us to fail. Yeah. And he still loves us in our following.
You know, when he said something about being fishers of men, just harken back to
that a little bit. You know, he spoke to him about something dang new. He's a
carpenter, so he ain't going to teach them a whole lot about being fishermen,
you know. So when he's talking to them about fishing, they're like, we're
talking about hard work here, we're talking about toil and sweat, and then we're
talking about the fellowship.
We—
yeah, of going out together even when we don't want to. Yeah, and toiling
together and seeing us on our best days, on our worst days. And that's why, you
know, Family is important, you know, church family, you know, that is part of
the discipleship model as well, that we, we are not in competition with each
other. So true, you know, that we walk together and we celebrate. Because those
first people Jesus called, I'm like, man, I would have loved to have been there
to see how they worked that out. Yeah, they work out several times. You said
grace, it's unmerited, you know, it can't be earned, it's just there for us to
draw on.
Yeah, that's so true.
I just found that— I just found that verse because I love it. So, um, it's like,
are you tired? Yeah. Worn out? Burnt out on religion? Come to me, get away with
me, and you'll recover your life. I'll show you how to take rest. Walk with me
and work with me. Watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I
won't lay anything heavy or unfitting on you. Keep company with me and you'll
learn to live freely and lightly.
Yeah. Where's that? And That's—
oh, I've just closed it.
Sorry.
It's on a phone.
It's in a message.
On my phone, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
No, it's the message version, but it's Matthew 11.
Yeah.
I'm sure somebody else needs to hear that again. Can you say it again?
Matthew 11:28-30 is, "Are you tired, worn out, burnt out on religion? Come to
me, get away with me, and you'll recover your life. I'll show you how to take a
real rest. Walk with me and work with me." Watch how I do it. Learn the enforced
rhythms of grace. I won't lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company
with me and you'll learn to live free and light.
Why would we not wanna walk with him? Why would we not? Why would we not, hey?
Yeah, yeah.
That's it.
Hear that.
That is just wonderful. Wonderful.
But I think it's important to understand, again, going back to the point you
mentioned earlier, my yoke is easy. That means you have to take the yoke still.
Yeah.
Right?
My burden is light, but there is a burden. Yeah, absolutely. This is not like
problem-free life. There's a fight, there's a, you know, you can't let things
rob you, um, of those things. Like a yoke, we don't use this language anymore,
but that's what you pull around a cattle as it walks down the field and pulls it
out, right? That's what it is. And so we've got a, you know, there's some
tension there, there's some resistance that we have to push against.
But it's only a rope if you start pulling in the wrong direction. Walk against
it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, pull against it. You know, pull against the older, wiser, bigger ox.
I just think it's such good, good imagery. You know, this sort of my yoke is
easy, my burden is light.
Yeah.
It's just such a good imagery of the call of God, isn't it?
It's true.
Yes, we're gonna walk. Yes, we're gonna plow. Yes, there's gonna be some
resistance, but try a different way, you've still got resistance, you've still
got a problem. And guess what? That's going to be a lot harder. Yeah, right. And
so, and I think the amount of times I hear people— I think I've heard you say,
and actually, you know, some of the stuff that you guys have gone through, or
going through that without God.
Yeah. Yeah, it'll be harder than with God. Yeah, exactly. And I think you can
say that about most difficult things in life. Like, yeah, life, life can be
really hard and really unfair at times. But it's rare that it's going to be any
easier without God. Like, I can't think of an example in my life where I think,
'If only I'd gone through that without God, it would have been so much easier.'
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not one.
One of the interesting things, coming back to this then, is with the disciples.
So they drop their nets, they become fishers of men, but when they are unsure
about Jesus You know, he's been arrested, he's been crucified, when the whole
world has gone into meltdown. That's what they return back to, and that's what
intrigues me. And in fact, um, that's what he knew they were.
Yeah, yeah, sorry, it is, it is, it is. That's what he knew they would go back
to, the old— yeah, source.
Yeah, there is that temp— there is that pull, isn't there? I think when, when
life is not clear, when you're not really understanding what's going on, there's
that pull to go back to how things were, um, especially, you know, if you, if
you weren't always a Christian, to be pulled back into— like, for me, I suppose,
for example, I've, I pulled back into maybe the way that I would talk, the way
that I would think, the way that I would react to things. There is that
temptation to go back to saying— you have to remind yourself, that's what I let
go of.
Yes.
Yeah, I think the, you know, you, you bring that point up, it's really
interesting because, like, Jesus, like, yeah, he knows where they're going to go
back to.
Mm-hmm.
You know, but they had to come, what Jesus said happened, and they had to come
back to what Jesus has said. The plan wasn't changing, and it was good for them,
but they were dealing with very human things, a sense of loss, that they thought
they'd lost the one they loved so much, the one they'd given everything up for.
And this is where the grace again comes in. So he doesn't come with a rebuke,
you know, comes back to them and loves on them and says, okay, we're going back
again. Yeah, you know.
Yeah. And I also loved, um, what you said, Dave, about, um, how they all had
their parts to play. So like, it's interesting, isn't it, that Jesus calls 12,
12 blokes, not just like 1 or 2 or 3. He didn't need 12, but it's like, it's
almost like right from the start it's baked in there.
Yeah, yeah.
That this, this walking with Jesus is not a solo sport. You do it in group and
in relationship with others, and that like one of you might be good at one thing
and, you know, someone else around the table, metaphorically speaking or
physically, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, it's going to be good at something else.
And it's like you all bring your different bits and you don't have to have it
all perfect or be good at everything. You just bring, you bring what you've got
to that community. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it's, um, I think sometimes we think everything's got to be perfect and
God isn't in it if there's any um, difficulty, any measure of difficulty. Well,
you know, God can't be in this thing. Like, this is, this is our learning
moment. This is our trust moment, you know. And, um, I think we use the word
disciple so much, and yet we think if we're going to be a disciple, certain
discipleship things are required.
Yeah.
And that is, you know, a trust in God, a trust in God's word. When all these
different things are happening in our lives— but not to live in the now. We
don't need to live in the now. We just need to submit them to Christ. And they
are horrendous. We've all been through horrendous things, very different things.
And like, you know, when I was nursing, you know, part of my job was to talk to
families and say like, you know, your baby isn't gonna make this. And I don't
know, I've said it far too many times. And, you know, and end-of-life care for
children. —and I'm like, you know, I felt it was a privilege to be able, you
know, to be there. I felt God had put me there. And I'm like, I don't know how
you walk through—
That. Yeah.
—loss and grief without Christ. I know lots of people do, hear me. You know, I'm
just saying, for me, I don't know how people do, because he's there. And he's
left us the Holy Spirit, whose name—one of his names is the Comforter. Yeah, and
we, you know, so I, I don't— I really don't know how people get by. I'm just
feeling so thankful that we have Christ with us.
Yeah, totally, totally. And I think just to sort of square the circle or circle
the square, whatever the phrase is, um, to bring that full round, I think what
are the talents that you have that God's calling you to use on his behalf?
What's the language that God's using I love in the comments, Alicia put that
Jesus is a carpenter. He's used to taking big clumps of wood and turning them
into something quite useful.
I love your comments. Your comments are absolutely fantastic.
So true.
I love them.
It's true.
Yeah, I'm a big clump of wood. Anyway, it was interesting, again, going back to
the story. They were fishermen. They returned to fishing when they didn't
understand things. But the redemption in that story is Jesus barbecued fish with
them on the beach. And I'm like, I would love to have some of that fish, right?
One day.
I'm happy to be on the beach. I'll be on the beach with you, Jesus.
Let me just also give a shout out. So I'm just going through the comments here.
I'm sorry if I butcher your name, Bukirwa from, where did you say you were from?
From Uganda. Uh, so welcome to the live stream, man. Good to have you. Good to
be here. Um, and yeah, he's put in the comments, Matthew 11:28 is indeed the
verse, so comforting. She— sorry, she— uh, thank you for correcting me, Daniel.
Uh, that is the verse, so comforting.
Yeah.
Um, and so yeah, some great comments tonight. Um, Alice put in the comments, uh,
she's thinking of Elisha immediately stopping what he was doing, offering a
sacrifice and saying goodbye to his family to follow Elijah. Yeah, it's really—
that's another great story. It is. If you're not familiar with it, it's
definitely in the— go check it out in the Old Testament about what happens when
Elijah calls Elisha to walk with him in this sort of discipleship, uh, culture
type thing. Um, but yeah, great conversation. Thank you so much for your
comments. Thanks, guys. Love that. Time has just flown by.
It has?
It just felt like we started and now we're finishing. So thank you for joining
us. We are gonna go over to Live Lounge. If you don't know what Live Lounge is,
this is where we go onto Google Meet. So if you're online and you want to come
and chat with us, Dave will be in there, I'll be in there, Anna will be in
there. Come chat with us in the Google Meet. The link is in the comments,
Daniel, is it not? It is. He's giving me a thumbs up. Obviously, God wants to
talk to me. Just get on with it. So yeah, just follow that link,
go.crowd.church/meet. And you can come say how's it to us. We'll only be in
there like 5 or 10 minutes. It's not a big long thing. But it's just always nice
to meet people after the service. Next week. I think it's me. It's me, isn't it?
Speaking next week and baby, you're hosting, right? And Will's hosting. So
talking about what it means to be the salt of the earth. So, uh, yeah, when I
figured that out, I'll let you know. Um, so we're going to be talking about that
next week. Um, but yeah, anything else, uh, from you guys in closing? I'll start
with you.
Um, no, I just want to give another plug to the Alpha Course. So, you know, if
anything that we've said tonight connects, you know, go check it out. There's,
you know, we do them through Crowd Church, or if you can't wait for that one,
there's hundreds of other ones across the country.
Yeah.
Both in local churches and online, or just grab the book like I did. Just start
digging deeper.
Yep, and if you want to know more about that, go to crowd.church/alpha. You'll
find a whole bunch of stuff there. So yeah, that's there. Anything else from
you, G?
If you don't know Jesus today, if you haven't come to a place where you've never
surrendered your life to him, forget the terminology. You know whether you have
or not. I want to ask you this question. What is it that hinders you from being
able to say, Jesus, if you're real, reveal yourself to me in whatever way—
you're God, you can do anything— reveal yourself to me. And just open up your
heart and your mind.
Yep.
And he will speak, because the invitation today to you is as real as what it was
to those disciples.
Yeah. Very good. Come follow me. It's a worthwhile thing to do. It really is.
Yeah.
And my plea will be, give it as much gusto as you can when you follow him. Don't
be that complaining kid in the back.
Hmm.
Right? Don't be that person. Follow him with everything you've got, because it's
very much a worthwhile journey.
Yes.
And a great calling. So yeah, hopefully you got something out of this tonight as
well. If you're a Christ follower already, just like God, What is it you want me
to do? Where do you want me to go? What's the plan? Who are the fishes of men
that you want me to think about here? What talents has he given you that you
could use for the kingdom of God? All those kind of things, always good to think
about. Maybe there's a course correction. Maybe you are on the course already
and God's just going to reaffirm that to you. Whatever it is, it's always good
to know you're in the will of God doing what God wants you to do. Um, and so I
encourage you to spend that time. But thank you so much for joining us this
week. We will see you next week. If we don't see you Live Lounge, which we're
going to in about 30 seconds' time. Um, we will see you next week. But that's it
from Anna, that's it from Dave, and from myself. Thank you so much for joining
us. Have a phenomenal week wherever you are in the world. God bless you. We'll
see you next time. Bye for now. Bye.