Welcome to America, A history where every week we answer a different question about the people, places, and events that have shaped the United States of America. Today, we turn our focus to a figure who remains as enigmatic as he is iconic. Ascending to the presidency at one of the tensest moments in American and world history, he energized the nation with his call for a new frontier, navigated the shoals of the Cold War, and inspired Americans with his vision for space and civil rights. Yet behind his polished image lay personal struggles, political obstacles, and a legacy marked as much by tragedy as by promise. So in this episode on the anniversary of his inauguration, I'm asking, who is President John F. Kennedy? Joining me today is a distinguished scholar from the University of Virginia's Miller center and one of the preeminent experts on the Kennedy family and presidency. She's authored and edited numerous books, including Jacqueline Kennedy, first lady of the New Frontier, and Rose the Life and Times of a Political Matriarch. And we'll link to both of those in the show notes. She's also a former U.S. supreme Court judicial fellow and a regular commentator for outlets such as the New York Times, the Washington Post, npr, cnn, the BBC, all the acronyms. She's been everywhere. It's an absolute honor to. Welcome to the podcast Professor Barbara Perry.

Well, thank you, Liam. It's my honor to be with you.

It's really great to have you on the podcast. And it just, it felt far too well timed for an episode landing on, on the anniversary of his inauguration. Not to talk about jfk. So it's probably about time to address.

I think so. And he is someone who, as you say, is still a bit enigmatic, but had such an impact on the United States and the world in both his life and his death.

Yeah. Remarkable as well for such a short presidency, for his impact to be as great as it is, right?

Yes, for sure. Only a thousand plus days was he in office.

Yeah. Let's go back all the way to the start and get a little bit of context around the person he was and how he grew up. So what did Kennedy's early life look like?

It looked like an upwardly mobile Irish immigrant family. And so if you think about this, all eight of his great grandparents were from Ireland, and they all fled during the famine. Most of the eight were in very dire straits. No food, difficult housing to come by, and they thought they could have a better life. They hoped to escape the starvation and the cruelty of poverty in the peat bogs of Ireland. And so to think that from that point in just two generations, he would already, through his family, when he was born in 1917 in a little suburb of Boston called Brookline, that his father was already beginning to make money. His grandfather Kennedy had made money, and his grandfather Fitzgerald had become the mayor of Boston. So the family on both sides was successful in business, they were already successful in politics. And in this little suburb, they were living in a middle class home. And he was born there at home, as most babies in the United States at that time, even in large cities were still born at home rather than in a hospital. And so it was the case that he was born into a family that was on its way up. And he was the second of what would be nine children of Joe Kennedy Sr. And Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy.

It's crazy really, because I feel like Kennedy, JFK has had this stigma attached of being born into power and privilege, but you can't really call it a dynasty at the point that he was born because they were only, as you say, a second generation immigrant.

Yes, this was it. And yet by having his grandfather, who by the way, had already been elected to Congress, he was in the US House of Representatives in the 1890s, and then in the early 20th century, as I say, became the mayor of Boston. And I just recently visited the Kennedy homestead in Wexford, County Wexford in Ireland. And the head of that homestead right now, who still lives there and farms the Kennedy property, was taking me through the museum, which by the way, if anyone has a chance, they should definitely visit. And this fellow pointed out to me and he is now a distant cousin of President Kennedy, he said, think of this, Barbara, when Honey Fitz as John F. Fitzgerald. So the namesake for John F. Kennedy was elected to be the mayor of Boston and was elected to Congress in the 1890s, that Irish weren't allowed to vote in Ireland. They had not yet gotten the vote. So it's a dynasty that's starting. So I would say that in that case, Jack Kennedy was second generation of a nascent political dynasty because his grandfather, Kennedy, his father's father, was also in polit and was also a successful business person in local business. Not like Joe Kennedy Sr. Would become a Wall street mogul and a Hollywood mogul, but in local business, local banking, saloon owning, tavern owning. Patrick Kennedy was his name. P.J. kennedy, the president's grandfather was in local politics and he had been elected to the state legislature in Massachusetts. So there was political DNA on both sides. It was just at lower levels. Jack Kennedy obviously would take that to the highest level of American politics.

I mean, I think we could do a whole episode on Joe Kennedy, but I don't think we can understate in this episode just the influence that he had on shaping the man that JFK turned out to be. Right?

He certainly did. For one thing, this was Joseph Kennedy Sr. The first child of Joe and Rose Kennedy was Joe Jr. So I'll make some distinctions between senior and junior. In the case of Joe Sr. He had gone and graduated from Harvard, so he was already influential in his educational background, despite the fact that the Irish were still discriminated against in Boston by the so called Brahmins, the Yankee Protestants, who were very high on the socioeconomic ladder, which is why Joe Kennedy Sr. Moved the family to New York City or near New York city in the 1920s. But he was so influential by virtue of the fact that he would amass millions of dollars and would say to his first two sons, Joe Jr. And Jack, they could do anything they wanted. They didn't have to make money. Each of them came into a million dollars, which would probably be worth about $10 million or so now when they turn 21. So they had trust funds. They could have just been playing tennis and golf and swimming for the rest of their lives. But because they didn't need to worry about an income and weren't particularly interested in business as their father was, politics seemed the natural thing to do. So he was influential in that way. He also had a streak of, what would I call it, perseverance, a streak of, some might say ruthlessness in the business world. And so I think the boys picked that up. In fact, Robert Kennedy, the third son of Joe Kennedy, would be called ruthless because he was the campaign manager for Jack and he would take no prisoners, as they say. I think that particularly Jack Kennedy had a softer side to him, maybe because he had so many illnesses as a child, as an adult. But in the case of all those sons, they saw their father succeed. They also took up this mantle of Kennedys don't lose, they always win. You must drive and persevere until you do win. Take no prisoners. We have all the money you need. We can buy whatever you need. And then sadly too, for the womanizing that was, I fear, a genetic streak among the men as well. Joe Kennedy was a womanizer, and he sadly passed that trait on to, if not Joe Kennedy Jr. Who really didn't live long enough to be determined to be a womanizer or not. But certainly for President Kennedy he was. And I think he got that trait from his father.

Yeah. And we'll certainly talk more about that later. But I think we should probably just address the Death of Joe Jr, right. Because that must have really hit, you know, John and everyone else in the Kennedy family quite hard, right?

It did. Joe Jr. Was the golden boy of the nine children of Joe and Rose Kennedy. And he was the sibling they all looked up to. Now, in the case of Jack, since he was born just two years after his brother Joe, there was tension there because Joe was not a sickly child. He was big and strong and poor Jack was sickly and a bit a weakling and he would beat up on Jack and bully him, which again, may have made Jack a bit more empathetic towards people who were put upon. But nevertheless, they all looked up to Joe. And Joe was thought to be by his father. If his father couldn't become the first Catholic President of the United states, then Joe Jr. Was thought to be that one. So in 1944, he volunteered for a very long, dangerous mission to fly a plane packed with explosives from England over to France and to the French coast and to take out the Nazi gun emplacements there. And what we think happened was that when he set the fuse and he was supposed to bail out and sort of turn this into an unmanned missile, almost like a drone we would think of now, the plane exploded and he was blasted into smithereens and his body was never found along with that of his co pilot. So you can imagine the tragic and the horror of that happening. And the family, in some ways, I think, never recovered from it. I don't think Joe Kennedy Sr. Did. Rose Kennedy was able to rely on her faith, her very strong Catholic faith. But she would say when she was asked later in life, what are the highlights of your life? And here was this woman who had gone to be the ambassador of England's spouse to the ambassador of England before World War II, and being at Buckingham palace and Windsor for weekends with the King and Queen and producing a President of the United States. She would still list as number one the birth of her first child. And so I think that just shows you how close she was to Joe and how she would always say that he was smarter than Jack, Even though the IQ test showed that Jack was innately smarter than Joe Jr. Oh, really?

So do you think there was an element of fulfilling a sort of family honor then that compelled John to join the military and fight in World War II?

Yes. Both boys, I think it should be noted, as did Robert Kennedy, and who was just a little bit too young when the war started for the United States in 1941, to enlist at that point, but he enlisted a few years later. So he did go into the Navy, as both of his brothers did. So Joe Jr. Who became a Navy aviator, and Jack, who became a PT boat skipper in the South Pacific. I would like to point out that sometimes people would say about the Kennedys, oh, they take risks. They do. Sometimes they're a danger to themselves and to others. But it also causes them to throw their hats into the ring to run for office. But it also prompted them to sign up for military service before they would have been drafted. And in the case of Jack Kennedy, he probably wouldn't have even been eligible for the draft because of his illnesses and his bad back. And instead, he used his family influence not only to get into the Navy and enlist before Pearl Harbor. Once he was in the Navy, he was assigned to desk jobs, administrative jobs, both in the Pentagon as well as in Charleston, South Carolina. And he used his influence, again from his family to get into combat and almost lost his life in the South Pacific when a Japanese destroyer rammed into and cut into his PT boat.

Yeah, that's the PT109 incident, if I'm correct, isn't it?

That is correct. That was the number of his motor torpedo boat. And sadly, he lost two of his crew directly, but he saved the balance of them, about nine others, including himself, by swimming from island to island, even though his back injury had been aggravated in the crash. He was an excellent swimmer, and so he would swim and pull others who were unable to swim because of their injuries, swam three miles with one of his crew members on his back and had the strap of that man's life preserver in his teeth and did the breaststroke in order to get three miles to the nearest island that they hoped would not be inhabited by our enemy, the Japanese. And then for a week, he continued to swim from island to island, trying to find help. Ultimately, he came upon some native islanders, two teenage boys who didn't really speak much English. We didn't know the Americans, didn't know if they were part of the enemy or not. But Jack took a chance and carved an SOS message on a coconut, and those two boys took that to a slightly older native Islander who got it to an Australian coast watcher who was working for the Americans and the Australians and the British, and ultimately got it to the US Navy. So after a week of really no food, no water, running from the Japanese, Jack Kennedy saved his crew and himself.

Well, and I mean, obviously a very traumatic situation to be in, but his heroics throughout that Possibly unbeknownst to him at the time, probably was the moment that I would say perhaps triggered that path towards the presidency. Because being a war hero is one of those tick boxes, right, that most presidents seem to have to have.

Yes. And he would, as always with his self effacing nature, when he would be asked as he was running for president or while president, about what it was like to be a war hero, he'd say it was involuntary. They sank my boat. And so he was never one to make a big issue of it. Obviously his father did because he was always looking for ways to get the family name out, knowing that he wanted his sons to be in politics. But at that time in 1943 when Jack Kennedy was engaged in this heroism, Joe Jr. Was still alive and wouldn't die until the next year, almost exactly one year after Jack's heroin experience, then Joe Jr. Was lost. But I think you're right that for Jack Kennedy himself, again, not being the favored child of the parents, knowing how proud his dad was, knowing that his dad was circulating through the media at that time, the story of his son's heroism, and then when Joe Jr dies, it may be too much to say there was always the next man up. As they say in athletics, a starter on a team is injured on the pitch and so the substitute runs in. In this case though, I think that Jack felt that that mantle fell to him. And he talks about this in a 1960 recording that he did before he became president. We think it might be he thought he would write a memoir based on his life. And he talks very seriously and openly about why he went into politics. After the war. He was a bit at loose ends. He considered becoming a journalist. He did do some journalism. He covered the start of the UN out in San Francisco after the war, traveled around Europe. But it's really, I think that the fact that his dad had put all of his hopes in Joe Jr that Jack felt that. And then I think as a war hero knew not only that he had that story, but no doubt it boosted his confidence and his self esteem.

And when we consider as well Robert's political ambitions and you know, tragic presidential run in 68, do you think Robert maybe resented the fact that Jack became, I guess, the golden boy of the family and the presidential pick?

I don't. Although I think it certainly made Robert Kennedy, I always now say senior to distinguish him from Robert Kennedy Jr. Who's in the Trump cabinet right now and is controversial, I would say usually called by the family Bobby, Bobby Kennedy. There was a Gap in years of birth order between Joe and Jack. And then came a series of the sisters, and then Bobby and then another sister, and then the youngest, Edward Kennedy, the youngest of the four brothers. And because Bobby was so much younger than his older brothers and because he, of the four who were pretty strapping figures, although again, Jack had a number of physical issues, but he was tall. And certainly Joe Jr. Was very broad shouldered, a great footballer at Harvard, and Ted Kennedy was really the biggest and beefiest and the most athletic perhaps of them all. So Bobby felt like the runt of the litter, if you will. And his grandmothers used to say to his mother, Rose, you should be careful about him because he's so slight of build and he's around all those sisters, he might become a sissy. And so I think Bobby fought against that as a little boy. And the story is that he wanted to learn how to swim. And so Joe, his brother Joe, took him out in the sailboat into the ocean and just chucked him into the ocean and sort of said, sink or swim. And so he had this determination. But I think he also had just an amazing admiration for Joe and the then when Joe died for Jack, that he was bonded to Jack. So I don't think he felt jealous of him. But I do think that once Jack was killed in 63, that Bobby was first of all at loose ends, but then decided the mantle had fallen to him and that he would go into the Senate, which he did, and then ultimately run for president in 1968, or at least the presidential nomination of his party.

So then going back to Jack and thinking about his, his political ascent, and we certainly don't have time to cover that whole period in detail, but his fairly rapid rise up through the political ranks and ultimately the 1960 presidential election, what do you think were his defining characteristics that helped him win so much favor amongst the electorate?

At the beginning? I think it was the fact that people in Boston, and he was running for Congress in 1946, first of all, he had to get the nomination of his party and his dad was very helpful in that. Once he got that, then Boston, in that area, very Democratic, Democratic Party city. So it wasn't that difficult, I think, to win. His grandfather was so well known, but I think to begin with, you have to look at his Persona and he wasn't as outgoing, I think, as brother Joe. He was a little bit cooler in his Persona and he wasn't a great public speaker. And where people, I think correctly note a turning point for him was that he was Speaking to what are called in this country gold Star Mothers. And this comes from the fact that. And I still have a copy from my dad serving in World War II, that my grandparents would hang in the window, say, one of our members of our family is serving our country, and they'd have a blue star to indicate that son or daughter serving in World War II. And then, sadly, if that person would be killed in action, that star would become gold. So gold star mothers were those who lost sons, particularly in the World War II sons. So what Jack said at this meeting of Gold Star Mothers, where he was fumbling around a little bit in his public speaking and trying to reach the mothers, at one point he said, very sincerely and truthfully, he said, I know how you must feel, because my mother is a gold star mother. And not to make too much of that, but I think he realized then how to connect with an audience. And because he was so young and he was the age of their sons, they would have lost in World War II. And at that time, he was still pretty sickly. His back was still really bad. He looked pretty pathetic as a physical specimen. And at various times when he would run, particularly for Senate in 52, he had to be on crutches. And so the story went that all the women who would come to his events, all the older women wanted to mother him, and all the younger women wanted to marry him. And he didn't marry until he was in his mid-30s. So he was a very eligible bachelor. So I think all of those go into his making a case for himself early on in 46 and then in 52. And I'm going to add one more element that will take us up to 60, and that is his charisma and his life story. So my mother took me to see him in 1960, when he was running for president. We lived in the town of Louisville, Kentucky. We lived in the suburbs. My mother was raising baby boom children. I have two older brothers. And she was not a political scientist or a presidential historian, but a very bright woman who read the papers and magazines. And she piled us into the car and drove us to downtown Louisville. And until she passed, she'd say, I put you right in. We got there early. I put you right in front of the podium so you could see him. Now, what drew my mother to him? Here's my theory. He was her generation, so the World War II generation. He was a World War II hero. My dad was a World War II veteran, served in the Italian Campaign in the U.S. army. Catholic. We're Catholic. And he was handsome and my mother was just drawn to him and intrigued by him. And I think you can't understate those factors, and particularly the charisma as television is coming on the scene as a way to communicate with people. So I think you put all those things together and not say that in 1946, Jack Kennedy was the Jack Kennedy of 1960. But he grew, he got better, and then he had a lot of natural gifts that he was able to put to positive and effective use.

Yeah. And looking back, it's easy to sort of see how JFK and Nixon were these two very opposite characters. And obviously in hindsight, you can very much history looks a lot fonder on JFK than it does on Nixon at the time. During that election cycle, did that also come across?

Oh, it did. And I think people, as you say, can just look at photos of the two of them and see the difference. One looked like a movie star and one had a bit of an odd shaped face and a Bob Hope ski nose and a five o' clock shadow and slicked back hair of a receding hairline that men in the 50s wore, where Jack Kennedy had this full head of hair that was not like a lot of American men wore in those days in a flat top or a crew cut. But I remember, I can actually remember people talking about his hair and it was so thick and lush and beautifully colored and this kind of auburn, red, Irish look and these beautiful eyes. And Nixon had these dark eyes that would dart back and forth. And Kennedy also dressed beautifully and impeccably by this time, was a bit of a sloppy dresser in his early life. But Jacqueline Kennedy, once she married him in 53, got him to up his game on his couture. And so he dressed in a way that was modern. He didn't wear baggy suits, he hated wearing hats. Men would wear these big homburgs. Eisenhower did, for example. So he just looked the part of somebody new and fresh. Then if you look at videos and watch particularly the first debate of Kennedy and Nixon on tv, the first televised presidential debate, that's when the big difference in how they looked came to the fore. And Nixon had been ill. He had been in the hospital with an infection. So he still wasn't 100%. He was perspiring profusely. And that was caught on camera. All black and white, of course, and he had not used any kind of makeup. So he had this pasty look and yet a five o' clock shadow. Kennedy, because his dad had been a Hollywood producer, knew how to dress and look and be made up for television. And if he didn't wear makeup, he would sit in front of a sun lamp or he would go to his parents home in Florida or to their home on Cape Cod. He'd go to the beach, he'd get a natural tan, which of course now we know is not really good for you. But it looked great on tv. And he had started taking a new medicine, cortisone, for his Addison's disease, which had made him look sallow at times and very thin. So by now he looked healthy. He had the right coloring for black and white tv. And there's a story, maybe a bit apocryphal, but I think there's some sense to it that people who listened to that debate on radio thought Nixon had won. Because Nixon had an excellent speaking voice, he was very bright. He had been a champion debater and had good education, just not at the Ivy League level of Harvard, which always upset him, by the way. But those who watched on TV definitely thought that Kennedy was. Had won that debate. And that helped him, I think, to win in a very close race against Nixon in 60.

It is interesting to see that sort of generational shift that is very much kind of represented in many ways by that sort of Kennedy, Nixon contest in 1960.

Except for the fact that, interestingly enough, they weren't very far apart in years. Nixon was just a few years older and was Also World War II Navy veteran. Didn't have the heroic story that Kennedy did, but not that many people who served in World War II did have a story like that. But Nixon had served. They were friends in Congress. They were on Capitol Hill together in the U.S. house of Representatives and in the Senate until Nixon then went to be Vice President for eight years under Eisenhower. And so he had more experience at that level than did Nixon. Sorry, than did Eisenhower. And Eisenhower had been quite ill and was much older in his presidency. And so Nixon had to fill in a lot for Eisenhower. But nevertheless, Kennedy was able to eke out a popular vote win by about 0.2%. But he did take up as many votes that he needed and even beyond in the Electoral College.

Yeah, as long as you get those electoral votes, it doesn't matter. Right. So coming up, we are going to discuss the JFK presidency, his assassination, and the legacy that he left behind. We'll be right back. Welcome back. And we're now talking about JFK's presidency. After that sort of whistle stop tour through his political career, which we obviously need to touch on a Lot more in future episodes, I think. But, Barbara, when we look at JFK as a president, what were his sort of signature policy initiatives and how did the realities of the presidency test his vision and his leadership?

There are two ways to look, I think, at his policies by virtue of two of the speeches that he gave at that time. So one is his nomination acceptance speech in which he introduces this concept of the new frontier. And he was speaking in Los Angeles at the convention in 60. And to him he said, the new frontier now the that we've come across the continent from the east coast to the west coast and from the west coast to the center of the country as well. We now have crossed the continent. Now the new frontier is space. So Kennedy is known domestically, certainly, and in some ways in the Cold War fight with the Soviets for his frontier of space that he wanted to conquer. He said by May of 61, to land a man on the moon and return him safely to the Earth before the end of the decade. So before the end of the 1960s. And I will point out, the United States achieved that in 1969. So that's one of the main components, I think, of his new frontier approach. He also was a little bit late to the game on civil rights, particularly for black Americans, because he was afraid of putting off Southerners in the House and the Senate for his other programs if he pushed too hard on particularly letting blacks into public services. Movie theaters, grocery stores, hotels, motels, department stores in the south, particularly under what were called Jim Crow laws, severe segregation, blacks were not allowed into these public services. And so it took him until 1963, but he should be given credit for it, to send up to Congress what became the 1964 Civil Rights act, which then required that any public business in the United States, and by that I mean it could be privately owned but open to the public, had to allow people, no matter what their race, color, creed or gender, so he gets high marks for that. Then the second speech I'm going to mention is the inaugural, which is really a Cold War speech. And so he's also noted then for fighting the Soviets, really through the Bay of Pigs, the Cuban Missile Crisis, Berlin. And we can talk about other areas that are hot spots, eventually Vietn, if you like. But I would say those are the two main areas in domestic policy and then foreign policy that he is known for and had to deal with.

Obviously, without JFK's insistence on the space race, maybe they wouldn't have gotten to the moon in 69. And he was obviously instrumental in triggering what became the most transformative decade for civil rights in the US but do you think that there would have been, and perhaps there is still criticism that when there was so much to sort out domestically, and we're seeing these narratives play out here today as well in America, that when there's so much to sort out domestically, that actually, you know, planning to go to the moon was just a little bit unnecessary.

I would answer that by saying that you have to see, and we should, by the way, for domestic policy as well as more foreign policy and Cold War policy, we should add the people Peace Corps to it. And I would put together in part the race to the moon and the Peace Corps establishment by Kennedy. And by that I mean that there are recordings that you can listen to on the Miller center website of President Kennedy talking to the head of NASA, the head of the space program in the White House and asking him about, well, what will we learn scientifically from space exploration? And that's what we should put first or second, that it's not just simply going to the moon, but all sorts of space exploration that continues to this day, there's still an International Space Station revolving around the Earth. So we should think in terms of that. But Kennedy said to the head of the space program, but I really want to beat the Russians to the moon. So it's a little bit like Olympics in space during that time period. I can certainly remember growing up when the US Wanted to beat the Soviets, and particularly the Soviets in Olympic medals won, especially gold medals won. This was part and parcel of beating the Russians to the moon. But space exploration, for science, for meteorological studies, but also for defense, all right, because doing what we were doing also had an impact on missile defense and technology. Now, I would say that as part of the Peace Corps and to some extent part of the civil rights movement, all bound up in the Cold War, Kennedy's reason for starting the Peace Corps was to send our young people, experts abroad to developing countries, not just to take up our education, our medicine, our technology, but to get there before the Russians did and try to get those countries that might become communist on our side.

This sort of, I don't know what the right word is, this sort of political one upmanship between the US and Russia, it got dangerously out of hand at one point. I mean, Kennedy could have been the president that presided over nuclear war, couldn't he?

He could have, but you also have to remember this before he became president, 1957, Sputnik launch. The Soviets put up the first satellite. And as Americans began to Realize that not only that had technological ramifications for communications around the world as an example, it also had ramifications for the Cold War that could turn hot in a nuclear conflagration that we came so close to in 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis. So all of this is bound up and you can't take away one variable like the Cold War and say, well, why didn't Kennedy do more at home? We've said what he should be given credit for in civil rights, he should also be given credit for. He lowered taxes, which obviously those monies go into people's pockets. He also was really good with farm surpluses and in trying to get food out to the American people. And he also gave the United States a real sense of hope and movement at home that of course, could be used in our fight against the Soviets. I would also add one other element that we hear a lot about today, and that is the Kennedy center for the arts and Washington, D.C. and while he doesn't come up with that idea per se, it was underway in Eisenhower's era. He continued to support it, as did Mrs. Kennedy, Jacqueline Kennedy. And he was also, while she was the person who knew the most about ballet and symphonies and opera, that he was pretty low brow when it came to his cultural interest. But he was for it. He was for bringing into the White House these new artists, black artists he brought in. This is the other thing to keep in mind in foreign policy. He and Mrs. Kennedy, by my count, had 16 state dinners in the just 1,000 days they were in office. And many of those were what we called Third World country leaders at the time, many who were black and brown, to try to show those around the world who were trying to decide, do we go with the Communists world or the free world led by the United States. And it was awkward for the United States because they would come to Washington, which was a very segregated city on the basis of race and thank goodness, moving towards the arts with getting it more, we would say diversified now and then, eventually moving the arts towards having this beautiful center just over the river from Washington D.C. now called the Kennedy Center. Also should be given some credit to him for that. That.

Yeah, to play devil's advocate, obviously JFK has been remembered very fondly and has achieved and been responsible for some really great things. But what do you think were his biggest political failings during his presidency?

I think he waited too long on civil rights. I understand the political reason for it, that he didn't want to put off the Southern Democrats in his party. In Congress. Nevertheless, leaders are supposed to be able to overcome the those things. So it took him really over two years to get to the point where he was finally pushed for a host of reasons into putting the Civil Rights act before Congress and then died before that got through. He might not have had the political skill that Lyndon Johnson did to get it through, but that remains unknown. But I do think that was a failing of timing. I think that his Bay of Pigs, while you can absolve them for some of the fault in it, in that it was a plan to invade Cuba and remove Castro who had just then aligned with the Soviets and had been putting in weaponry we discovered by 1962, 90 miles off the coast of Florida, weaponry that would attack the United States in most of its big cities around the country. And he should have been more careful about the Bay of Pigs. And I think that's where his inexperience at that level showed and maybe some of his youth. He is still the youngest President ever elected at age 43. So I think that was a failure in foreign policy and defense policy that he should have reconsidered that maybe not gone forward with it. And the other thing that he did was change the landing site to a place that was less obvious. He didn't really want Americans to be involved in the invasion even though the CIA was training Cuban exiles to be a part of the invasion. And also remember this, he was a lieutenant junior grade in World War II. Eisenhower, who had planned with his CIA the Bay of Pigs invasion, had been a five star general. Maybe that that thought made Kenny think, oh well, he knows what he's doing so I guess I should go ahead and carry on with this. To Kennedy's credit, after the fact, he took complete responsibility for it. He could have said wasn't my plan. Instead he said I'm the responsible officer of this government, I take full responsibility. His approval ratings went from 72% to 83% and he completely changed his decision making process. And that says to me that he was a good learner. He learned from his mistakes, but mistake nevertheless.

Of course, yeah. But before we move on, a quick yes or no. Would he have won re election in 64?

Yes, I believe he would have. And I think he would have run against Barry Goldwater and may have not been as much of a landslide as Lyndon Johnson, but I do think he would have won.

Interesting. Well, you know, we've talked a lot about his politics and his career, but you know, running parallel to all of that was his, I guess, colorful personal life. So let's talk about that. You know, his marriage to Jackie and, you know, some of the more, I guess, scandalous parts throughout that time.

Yes. Well, this could be an entire episode, I'm sure. I'm sad to say, but colorful is a diplomatic way to put it. Yes. John Kennedy, there's no way around it, was a womanizer. And he was unfamiliar, faithful, serially in his marriage. He was in his mid-30s when he married. She was 12 years younger. Jacqueline Kennedy was his father, it is said, told him, told young Jack, by mid-30s, if you're going to be running for the highest offices, you need to be married and you need to have a family, else you will be called queer, was what we hear he was told by his father. So he picked a great person. He picked a beautiful woman, a bright woman, a woman of the world in terms of being bilingual in French and some Spanish, and a woman of the arts. So she turned out to be eventually the perfect political wife. Although she, like many wives, she wasn't drawn herself to politics or campaigning. But as one of Kennedy's advisors said, she'd go on these political trips with him after she married and he was running for reelection in the Senate in 58 and then president in 60. She would, according to this advisor, listen to the people he'd be talking to. And this advisor said Jacqueline Kennedy had a gift to be able to determine who were the smart people and who were the stupid people and then say to Jack, go with the smart people. And while she was viewed sometimes as a bit aloof and out of the mainstream of the common person, by virtue of her beauty and her rather exotic look and her beautiful clothing and her highbrow taste and then her redecoration of the White House, she became a great hero in her own right. And certainly after the assassination, in terms of the president, he just, from the time they married, he just did not stop his womanizing. And so it's one thing to be unfaithful to your wife. In those days, the press knew it. He was viewed as a playboy around Washington among his colleagues, the press. Press knew of his womanizing and his infidelity to his wife, but they didn't report it in those days. It carried on through the presidency. And that's where it gets particularly problematic. It's one thing for a marriage, it's another for the country. And so he was seeing a mafia mall called Judith Campbell Exner, and towards the end of his life, he had been seeing a woman who was determined to be an East German spy and she was quickly shepherded out of the country. But imagine the kind of blackmailing that could have gone on, or state secrets. You know, you've seen this in Britain with cabinets that collapse, collapsed, particularly during the Cold War, over these kinds of issues. So it's a real blot. It's a real blot on his record, and there's no excusing it.

When you think, though, about the kind of, you know, self destruction that can occur nowadays because the press are far less willing to apply discretion to that kind of scenario, do you think that JFK's reputation might have actually, and perhaps his legacy might have been very different had he been president in the sort of context that we see today?

Well, yes. Or let's. Let's. Yes. So I've thought about that a lot, except I'm rethinking that in light of Donald Trump because it shows that not everyone will be brought down by sexual escapades and marriage infidelity. And I don't know whether that will be sui generis as relates to Donald Trump or whether that will carry through to other politicians. But let's just say that this had been found out about Kennedy in a first term, or if he had lived into a second term and it had come out, he would not have the reputation he does today. I should mention that when Americans are asked by the Gallup Poll periodically, which of the presidents do you approve of? Of the last dozen or so from 2010 onwards, Kennedy comes out at the top at 90%. So I don't think then if he had. First of all, I think that the way he died adds to the heroism. Second, if there had been this view that he was a completely immoral person in his private life, then I don't think that people would have the respect for him that they do now. And to Jacqueline Kennedy's credit, unless one disagrees with the myth of Camelot, she knew. She knew what he was up to. And so when he died, I think she worried that someday that would come out. And it did. About 10 years later, it came out to the world. And yet she had gotten ahead of the curve by one week after the assassination, establishing the legend of Camelot. And she achieved her goal.

Yeah, which is great. And again, I think we need to cover Jacqueline and indeed Marilyn Monroe, I think, on this podcast, because both stories give us, I guess, a lot more understanding of jfk, the person behind the president. But let's talk about the assassination. We can't really discuss JFK's life without talking about his untimely Death. So I guess remind our listeners what, what actually happened that day.

Yes, this is the kickoff of the 1964 re election campaign for John Kennedy in November of 1963 was to make a multi day swing through Dallas and Houston and San Antonio and Austin and see the space where the space technology was being made. There were a lot of armament factories in that area. So look into science, technology, defense, but also to raise money for the upcoming campaign and to mend fences in the Democratic Party in Texas. Texas, such a big state to this day, such a big population, has so many electoral votes, which is why he had chosen Lyndon Johnson, a Texan, to be his Vice President. But there was infighting going on among two wings of the Democratic Party in Texas. So Kennedy was also making this trip to try to mend fences there so that the party would be unified in that big important state. And they had come into San Antonio, they had gone to Houston, they had been met by enthusiastic crowds. Mrs. Kennedy was along for this trip despite the fact that she and the President had lost a premature baby who was born in August. And they were devastated by that. But she was recovering and, and she offered to go with the President, which she typically didn't do for domestic political trips, but she decided to go on this trip. So she was with him. They arrived in Dallas on late morning of November 22, 1963. They had about an 8 mile motorcade scheduled that would snake through the streets of Dallas, Texas. And then he was to go to a luncheon, fundraising luncheon, and give a speech. And just at the end of the motorcade, as it was in the last block, shots rang out. They were in an open limousine. We think, I think most people who aren't conspiracy theorists believe that a shot hit the President in the back of the neck and exited his throat. They don't believe that would have been fatal. But another shot was aimed at his head and it was a fatal shot to his head. He sank over into Mrs. Kennedy's lap. By this time it was clear to one Secret Service agent on the limousine behind him that they were under fire. He dashed to the back of the president's limousine. Mrs. Kennedy had crawled out in complete trauma. She crawled out onto the trunk of the limousine. Her Secret Service agent, Clint Hill, pushed her back in. They raced off to the hospital. But there was nothing that could be done for the President. I can't imagine the horror that Mrs. Kennedy felt to see her husband murdered in cold blood in such a gruesome way and literally to fall into her lap. And who can blame her for trying to exit, but it was a trauma for her and it was a trauma for the country and to some extent the world. And I'm not sure I've made the statement most recently in Ireland, where the Fitzgeralds were from, in Brough, County Limerick, that I don't think the United States been the same since that day.

There's just something, I think, because it was fortunately the last presidential assassination, but also the first one that was televised. So the whole country, the whole world saw that. That's gonna just, you know, interestingly, this.

Is what's so fascinating to me is that they didn't, even though so TV was instrumental for the funeral. So it's really the first time the whole world and certainly United States is united in this national grief, much like 911 would be for the US the actual assassination was really only caught in full by Abraham Zapruder, a bystander. And he demanded that the fatal shot frame not be shown on television or in magazines. When he sold it to, I think it was Life magazine. So Americans, the people who were there, and it was a sparse crowd by the end of the motorcade, not many people, but certainly there were people who saw it firsthand. The people in the limousine obviously experienced it. And then everybody knew what had happened. But we were spared, I think, in a good way, until some years later, the full Zapruder film was made available both in print and in video. So it would have been even worse, I think, if Americans and the world had seen the fatal shots immediately. Imagine if that would have happened with camera phones.

We obviously. Well, we saw almost that happen recently with Trump when he was campaigning last year. I mean, we kind of saw it with Charlie Kirk, didn't we?

I was just going to say yes, and that no one was spared that sadly for everybody involved and just the innocent bystander, whether that's online or TV or in person and just horrific. And I just think that. And I can remember the day I was in a Catholic school and we were taken off to the church to pray for the President who had not, it hadn't been announced yet, he had died. But I just can remember that night when the casket came back from Dallas to Washington and Mrs. Kennedy's blood stained suit, which she insisted on wearing and not changing because she kept saying, I want them to see what they did to Jack. And I can hear my family gasp even on black and white TV to see that blood stain on her skirt and down her legs on her hosiery. And so as a 7 year old. I'll never forget that.

Yeah. I mean, that's incredibly powerful imagery. And. Well, coming up, we explore JFK's legacy and the Kennedy family's continued relevance today. Welcome back. And just before we wrap up this conversation about jfk, Barbara, I did want to just touch on the legacy that JFK left behind because, as we mentioned, for such a short presidency, he is remembered as one of the most popular presidents and perhaps one of the most consequential presidents in U.S. history. So how has history remembered him? And does that match reality?

Americans, Americans and those who read about history, not necessarily historians themselves, but Americans who appreciate history, I think, have placed Kennedy on a pedestal because of the tragedy of his death, because of his charisma, because of his beautiful family, and because of the Camelot legend. And that's why I think he continues to be very popular and approved of among the American people. Among, among scholars, he tends to fall in the top third of presidents, in part because of a short time period. The Bay of Pigs fiasco may be acting too slowly on civil rights, as we've said, but I think his legacy should be one of positively, primarily in the space race, in the Peace Corps, in the civil rights program, and being part of a whole line of presidents From Truman through Bush 41 that helped to end the Cold War without a conflagration of nuclear weaponry that would have ended Earth as we know it. So I think all those go in the plus column for him. His personal characteristics have to go in the debit side. But I think we still have that argument ongoing in the United States about Donald Trump. And we had it about Bill Clinton. And I think about half of Americans, at least under the Bill Clinton regime, would say, I do judge a president by his private moral life. And about half or more would say, no, as long as he's doing his job, it doesn't matter to me. So we still have that debate ongoing. Again, I think for Kennedy that that's why he tends to go to the top of approvalists among the American people, that they have clearly put that behind them and that Jacqueline Kennedy was successful in creating this gauzy golden glow of Camelot that don't ever let it be forgot. There was, there was a spot for one brief shining moment known as Camelot from the Broadway show by Lerner and Low. And remember that Camelot is a British English legend of king Arthur. So Mrs. Kennedy had that as its basis, and then she layered another legend over the top of it. And legends and mythologies are hard to break through.

Sometimes yeah, of course. And they, they get so layered and so they, they evolve so much over time that it becomes impossible to separate that, that myth from the reality.

Right, that's right.

So how do you think JFK has influenced future politicians and future presidents?

Think of Bill Clinton and if you can see this online, I'm sure he had a campaign video, 30 minutes done by Hollywood. And Bill Clinton, appropriately enough, was born in a little town in Arkansas called Hope. And he talked about that and they interviewed his family and he talked about his positive outlook towards the United States. And then at the very end of this 30 minute video, and I remember becoming tearful about the sentimentality of it, Bill Clinton, when he was 16, went to Washington with a group of boys from around the country. It was a civic oriented group called Boys Nation. And they all met in the Rose Garden, which was then really a rose garden with President Kennedy. And Bill Clinton was bigger than the other 16 year old boys and he pushed his way up to shake hands with President Kennedy. And you can see the photos and you can see the videos. And that was Bill Clinton's ending to his campaign video in 1992. And the last line in his voice and his voiceover was, and I, and I still believe in a place called Hope. And so I know he was influenced by President Kennedy to go into public service. Barack Obama, I think, was influenced. And I have a campaign button for Barack Obama that shows him and President Kennedy and the President's daughter, Caroline Kennedy, who's been an ambassador from the US to both Australia and Japan in democratic regimes. She wrote a very, very influential op ed in the New York Times. I believe it was, could have been the Washington Post when Obama was still locked in a very deadly debate with Hillary Clinton as they ran for the nomination of the Democratic Party in 2008. And this really boosted the Obama campaign in the spring of 08. And Caroline Kennedy said, all my life people have come up to me and said how much they loved my father and how they wished we could have another president like him. And Caroline Kennedy said, I've never found another president like that, but now I have and it's Barack Obama. So it also shows you the impact of the Kennedy family and the legacy as we go along. I would say that those were the two presidents on whom Kennedy had the most impact directly in the case of Bill Clinton and indirectly. Barack Obama, I think was born in 62, so he had no personal memories of Kennedy, but his daughter. And the legacy of John F. Kennedy carries on. And as we have just been talking. Liam, before we we went on, I've just heard that Caroline Kennedy's son, Jack Kennedy Schlossberg, is going to run for Congress. So the Kennedy generations continue forward in public life.

Yeah, the Kennedys are still very much a part of American political life. Barbara, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you about about jfk, a much overdue one on the podcast, and I can't thank you enough for joining me.

Well, Liam, it's been my pleasure. And thank you for all your knowledge about not only the United States generally, but about President Kennedy and your superb questions.

Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, that's nice to hear from someone who understands the Kennedy so well. As he stood at the edge of his new frontier, John F. Kennedy both reflected and reshaped the America he left, embodying an age of dazzling possibility, daunting peril, and ever more complicated choices. His presidency was cut short, but his story continues in books, classrooms, campaigns, and the imagination of new generations. A huge thanks to Professor Barbara Perry for sharing her immense knowledge with us, and I really hope this episode has helped you all understand President Kennedy's life and legacy a little bit more. There are two tons of links in the show notes if you want to find out more about anything we've discussed. If you enjoyed listening to this episode, please remember to rate, review and follow us wherever you get your podcasts. And remember also to sign up to our newsletter and Patreon where you can access loads of extra content and ad free episodes. Thanks for listening and goodbye.

Sam.