Hey, beautiful friends.

And welcome back to Faith Fueled Woman.

This is your host, Kristen.

Today I have a great interview for you.

We are going to talk about how God has entrusted us, entrusted us women to serve and to lead in our churches, in our communities and our homes, and what he's calling us into in the season that we might be in or in our next season.

It's powerful.

We're going to talk a lot about asking questions, getting curious, being confident in our faith and our role, that God has things for us and that we just have to be willing to step into those things.

Welcome to Faith Fueled Woman, a podcast designed for Christian women eager to deepen their faith and shine God's light in every aspect of their lives.

Each week we'll delve into practical strategies, inspiring stories and biblical wisdom to equip you with the tools you need to navigate life's challenges and grow deeper in your faith.

From finding calm in the chaos, forming deep Christian friendships, to everyday ways to connect with God.

We'll cover it all.

Hi, I'm your host, Kristen.

I'm an encourager, a faith led entrepreneur, a mom and a wife.

Let's be encouraged in our everyday lives as we let our faith guide us, fuel us and fill us with God's incredible peace, wisdom and joy in our lives.

Hi.

Today on the show, I would like to welcome our guest, Donna Pasani.

She's a pastor and a Bible teacher with 40 years of ministry ministry experience.

She's the author of the Power of Not yet in her new book Entrusted to Lead.

She has a Master's of arts ministerial leadership from Southeast University and a DM and from George Fox University focusing on women in leadership.

She also co founded Capital City Church alongside her husband.

And she's a co founder of The Circle of 12, a mentoring program for women leaders.

And her family includes four adult children, two son in laws and two adorable grandchildren.

And I'm so excited for this conversation today because not only has Donna been leading in churches and now leading women through her books and other mentoring, but she's just, she has so much rich knowledge of the Bible and just she has so much to share with us women.

So I know it's going to encourage each of you in your lives and I can't wait to share this episode with you.

So welcome Donna.

Thank you.

It's so good to be here.

Such an honor to be here.

Oh, I love it.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, I'm so excited to connect with you.

So what I'd love for you to do first is just Share with us a little bit about your journey and your story.

You have lots of ministry and leadership and mothering experience.

So what would you love to share with the audience today?

Well, I think probably this leadership journey wasn't anything that I was looking for.

I was kind of invited into it.

I had a lot of resistance because I didn't consider myself a leader or even an influencer, to be honest with you.

And so, like, right off the get go, I just want to encourage anybody who's listening.

You don't have to be in a leadership position or even consider yourself an influencer to even, like, lean into this conversation.

I feel like every woman or man who's listening, you are influencing somebody.

And so to me, that was like a huge breakthrough to realize that God had entrusted me with something.

And so my.

My journey was.

I didn't want to be necessary.

I was in ministry because my husband was in ministry.

We led together because my husband felt like we should.

He didn't want to lead by himself.

He wanted us to lead together as a husband and wife.

And so even in the areas where I felt insecure and didn't, I was like, I have.

I don't have that gift.

I can't speak publicly.

I can't really.

What kind of wisdom do I have?

Dennis kept pulling it out of me.

So I'm incredibly grateful that I married a man who's confident enough in his own gifts to pull out mine.

And that may not be your journey, if you're listening today, but what I've discovered is that God will give you.

And the reason why I wrote the book is for anybody who maybe hasn't had that in their journey.

So Dennis and I traveled overseas admissions for the first 12 years of our ministry time together.

I got married when I was 20.

So the first 12 years we traveled overseas everything from backpacking Bibles in the Himalayan mountains to crusades around the world, and then felt God calling us to start a church in Washington, D.C.

and so quite the adventure.

We didn't know how to do it.

We could probably write another book on 4000 ways on how not to plant a church, because we have so many.

But what I've discovered is that God uses those mistakes and those areas that we would consider, maybe even failures in the beginning.

There's always a chunk of wisdom in there.

And so.

So we did that and then just recently transitioned the church.

My heart has always been.

I've been obsessed with the idea of leadership.

So once I discovered that I was being invited into this space or entrusted with it really is probably the better terminology.

I wanted to learn as much as I could.

But here's the problem that I found is that, you know, you can learn leadership.

I can learn leadership from anybody.

I can learn it from a donkey.

I can learn it like, I'm just hungry to learn.

I'm curious about everything.

You could be younger than me, older than me, whatever.

I can learn from you.

And so.

But most leadership books are, or books on influence are written by men, which is fine, I can learn from them.

But there are unique challenges as a female that men maybe don't have to face the same challenges as we do.

And so then I found that there were some books written by women, but they always had this slight nuanced anger at men.

And I wasn't angry at men.

I.

And I feel like if you are angry at men, then that's a whole nother conversation that God wants to heal you of.

I do believe that really in order to see what God wants to do in this day and in this season, it's going to take all hands on deck.

And I call it in the book hashtag, same team.

So it's all of us working together using our gifts.

And so that's what started me.

I, I never felt smart enough.

Went back to school in my fift, got a master's and doctorate degree and then wanted to use the research that I discovered at that point in my life, even though I'd been in leadership for so long, how can I now distill this information in an easy to read book that anybody can pick up?

I wanted to feel like you were being mentored, coached, and having a cup of coffee with an old friend while you're gaining the wisdom from my mistakes.

So that's my story and that's where I am right now.

And now this part of my life, I'm just at this age, I just love being able to speak into to other women so that maybe you, if you're listening to, you don't have to go through some of the same things I did because you can glean some wisdom from what I wrestled with for a lot of my life far too long.

So that's the heart.

That's who we are.

We have four children.

I'm obsessed with my grandchildren and my favorite time is hanging out with the whole family.

We're Italian, so it's loud and noisy.

Lots of.

Love it.

Thank you for sharing that.

Yeah, there's so many, so much wisdom and so much, so many nuggets in your book.

And I think the first thing that I want to, you know, you kind of touched on this.

But I want to say is for anybody listening that might say, well, I'm not in a major church role or, you know, I don't feel like I'm a leader of anything.

I want to say something.

I want you to kind of respond and kind of add to it.

But, you know, one thing I say, I say it differently, but I say all of us have a ministry.

It's the ministry of you, which points people hopefully back to Jesus.

But in other words, no matter what we do, how we're showing up in our lives, we might be leading in our homes, we might be leading in smaller church roles, we might be leading a church, we might be an influencer, like you said, where, you know, like, I have the podcast.

Well, I'm not a leader in a traditional sense, but I am in the sense of that I'm providing content and encouragement and scripture right to people that listen.

So what would you just share with women that might hear this and say, like you mentioned, you know, you don't have to be in a traditional leadership role to still be leader in your, in your life.

So what would you share with us?

Yeah, the good question.

It's a really great question.

In fact, yesterday I did a.

We filmed.

There's a television program, woman talk show called Better Together, and we filmed that, filmed it yesterday.

And that was one of my questions to the women that were like, women that you would know.

They're pretty well known in Christian circles.

And that was like, what was the narrative that you heard in your head that prevented you from stepping into ministry or stepping into leadership or even recognizing that you are an influence.

And every single one of them talked about how the failure that they faced in their life or the obstacle that they or the fear that they faced in their life kept that buried for far too long.

But how God, when they were willing to remove the shame from that, they were willing to actually be open to hear whatever it was that got.

God wanted to use that healed space.

So one of them had had a mental breakdown.

And so God wanted to use that healing space.

Another one just didn't feel like she had a voice.

Another one was the marginalization that she felt as a female.

Like, each of them had their own story, but all of it went back to the lie that the enemy speaks to us to keep us silent or to make us feel like we don't have like enough.

And what I've discovered, and you have too, I'm sure, is that God you, you want the capacity and the gift that looks like an oak tree, right?

I want it to be fully formed.

I wanted to have the fruit before I actually say yes to it.

And God like 99% of the time gives me an acorn and he's like, and I would miss it three quarters of the time like most of us do.

And I did for many years.

It's always going to come in seed form because you have to grow with the gift so you can handle what God produces through you.

So it doesn't matter if you're stay at home, mom homeschooling, or you're a CEO in a corporation or you're serving in a church or whatever it is, you are uniquely entrusted.

Every one of you is uniquely entrusted with gifts.

It's just opening your eyes to see it.

So absolutely, you, you said two things kind of that spoke to that in your book.

One was, you said comparison will always make you miss what God has uniquely entrusted you to, which is what you just kind of spoke to, right?

That we have to be careful, right?

That the, the shame and the blame and the guilt and the feeling there's a lack of in us, you know, or like you said, whatever lie we're telling us, telling ourselves is holding us back, right, from what God has for us.

And then you said, and I loved this.

Your creator loves the sound of everything, every attempt, even if it looks like a failed one.

And I thought that that was a pretty key message in the book, which is we all sometimes feel like failures in something we did or tried, right.

Or didn't work out.

We didn't think.

But would you just say to that, because I think that's pretty major, that if we could see failures differently, if we could see them as actually a growth, and that God's using that attempt for his good.

Yeah, it's really good.

I, I don't know if you're like me, but I am have a PhD in perfectionism.

Like, I want it to be perfect and then I can like at midnight have these ridiculous conversations in my head about how I should.

Could have what had done it.

Like, did I why did I say that?

Or why didn't I say that?

Or that didn't work out the way I wanted it to.

So, so I think you have to know failure is part of life and it is part of growing.

And you know, any airplane that takes off in the air is the equal and opposite resistance that allows it to take off.

So you're going to face resistance and you're going to Grow from it.

I think for me, one of the biggest breakthroughs, and this was like maybe 15 years ago, was realizing that every failure, fear, obstacle, everything is.

Can be used in one of two ways.

It can be used as an indicator of a gift in your life, or it can be used as an intimidator.

And I far too long used it as an intimidator.

And then shame sits there.

The problem with shame is it hides where God is the most present.

So our vulnerability to God to say, you know what, this is the area I really don't want anybody to know about, but God, I'm surrendering it to you.

You can use it.

And that, like, shame is the worst.

And I let it speak to me for far too long.

But I do think you're going to face failure.

It just means you're attempting and trying.

And honestly, I was at a conference a couple weeks ago, and I was in this really powerful moment of worship and.

And I was reflecting over my life and areas that were still kind of like, I've.

I looked at them, I know I grew from them, but still kind of like, lord, that was a little bit painful, whatever, whether it was me making stupid decisions or responding.

And I saw it was this beautiful picture of the Lord just taking my hand and saying, okay, but I need you to see that from my standpoint.

You didn't stop.

You said, yes.

And I.

It was like he was holding my hand, bringing me to the next season and then the next season and the next season.

And at the end of it, I just felt that, like, who he had formed in me through the process.

And now there's a confidence like, I've walked through hell and back, but I have no question that God isn't with me.

I have no question that there isn't redemption, restoration in everything that I face.

Because the prize, honestly, is not just you getting the answer to prayer, but you discovering who God is and that intimacy of walking through it.

So if you face failure, stop letting it beat you up.

That is just the devil trying to silence and stop the redemption side of whatever you've walked through.

God's bigger than that.

Absolutely.

And, you know, you, you know, kind of still on a little bit, but you, you said also how when we push past.

Right.

This comparison or the feeler, fear or failure, that we grow every time.

Right.

And so I think just reminding people that that's.

That's to be expected and we have to kind of push through.

I think you mentioned push through the obstacles because that's actually how we're becoming who God's calling us to be, I think in our lives.

You asked a really interesting question that was about the whole, is it an indicator?

You said, you say something like, what is this fear or failure, battle or obstacle indicating?

So how can people use that question in their lives to make sure that they're, they're challenging themselves.

Right.

To not make it an indictment, if you will.

You know, when we feel these, these scarcity or these fear based stories or.

Lies, it's really good.

I, I mean first of all, I think if you're listening, this is common.

Everybody feels this.

There aren't like some people that like have it all together and know everything and then you're like, not them.

Like everybody doesn't matter who you are.

And you're going to feel this the rest of your life because God's going to keep inviting you into spaces that are bigger than you are.

And so what I've discovered is exactly what you said.

I just pray, okay, Lord, what is this fear indicating?

Like what is behind?

What am I really afraid of that will happen most of the time was that I'd or I wouldn't be sufficient.

Like I wasn't enough to complete the task.

But again, God's always putting me.

Like when I was writing this book, I was like, who am I to write this book?

Like I don't even have a gift.

Like I hate writing.

But at the end of the day, and then getting the edits back and then hating the editor because I didn't like what she edited.

I was like, you just edit.

Feeling offended by the edits.

At the end of the day though, all of those things that you keep, when you look at what's behind it, sometimes it's God editing us.

Like the way we look at ourselves that we look at ourselves as a failure.

And God's like, no, I don't see you as a failure.

You're my daughter.

You're a daughter of the king, you're saying?

Yes.

And ultimately I think God created us to feel as though we don't have enough.

Because when I feel like I have enough, then I don't ask God for help, right?

So the scarcity mentality that if only I had blank, then I could do blank.

I mean that's as old as the garden.

Garden of Eden.

Adam and Eve started feeling entitled to more forgetting what they'd already been entrusted with.

And so I think the fear wants to make you forget what you've already been given rather than seeing what you know, what you feel entitled to.

So, yes, if you're feeling fear.

And also, like, side note, like, I'm not gonna, like, if you give me a 711 gift card that's worth $5.

I.

I'm not gonna, like, if I lost it, of course I'd be upset.

But not, like, if you gave me a Ritz Carlton vacation.

Right.

Like, great.

I'm not gonna lose that.

Why?

Well, because you guard what has value.

And if the enemy's working really hard to steal whatever God's entrusted you with, fear and those lies that you've been listening to your whole life that have become truth to you, then let that be an indicator of the value God has placed on you.

Not just the gifts you have, but just on you as a human.

And.

And let that shake off the lies from the enemy.

And he works really hard to silence people who have great value.

Absolutely.

I love it.

And, yeah, I mean, even starting the podcast and doing it, you know, it was easy for me to try to have thoughts.

Well, I'm not a pastor.

Right.

I didn't go to school, you know, get my divinity degree at this point, or, you know, and I had to just keep, you know, saying that that is not the truth.

Right.

Like, just because I haven't done that doesn't disqualify me.

Right.

To see what I think God was calling me to do and so.

Or looking at the stats.

Right.

You know, the whole idea of we live in a world that people, you know, we're.

We are shown by the world that comparison matters when we know it does not.

Right.

But it's hard to not say, look at all these people that are ahead of me.

Right.

Or further than me or have a bigger audience and to keep reminding myself my job isn't to make it a certain size.

It's to be consistent and faithful and, you know, to be a steward of coming on here and sharing, you know, messages of hope and faith and the word.

So, you know, but once again, we all struggle with these things, and we have to just keep calling it out, you know, and saying, is this actually true?

You know, and it's usually not.

Yeah, that's really good.

I had this thought this morning I might post it on Instagram in the next week or so.

But we too often measure our influence or our success by the size of our platform.

And I think if God entrusts you with a large platform, awesome, go with it.

But it is, I think, the anonymity and in the quiet spaces and in the more personal spaces that God can do some of his deepest I mean, he can do his deepest work both places, you know, because it's God.

Right.

He can use a donkey, you can use me.

But the point is, like, stop.

Our world celebrates big.

Yep, absolutely.

And that's not the kingdom of God, right?

Yeah.

God celebrates faithfulness.

And the faithful.

Yes.

And the faithful steps.

I mean, I just want to.

I want to get to heaven and not feel like I've missed this moment of entrustment because I have been waiting till it got to a certain size to be used.

So I just want to say to you, thank you.

I don't know anything about the podcast.

I'm just meeting you today, and I'm so delighted to do that, but I'm incredibly grateful.

And I know for me, the.

The wanting to hide the size, like, maybe you haven't done that.

But for me, when I didn't feel like I had a platform, I was like, well, who am I to say anything?

Like, who's going to listen?

Well, if the one person hears you today or hears me today, I'm going to get to heaven and God's going to be like, well done.

You said.

Yes, absolutely.

I.

One author, a Christian author, Mary Morantz, she says stuff around that often, which is so often, we don't want to celebrate wins or small wins because we don't think they're big enough because of comparison.

Right.

In other words, we think, oh, I'll celebrate when.

Right.

I'll celebrate when.

And then we hold back on celebrating things that we've.

And when I say accomplished, it's not about that, it's about it.

You know, it sounds like a vanity metric, but the point is we should celebrate that.

We've put in three years or 40 years.

Right.

You were in ministry and leadership.

You are still in leadership.

But instead of hiding those things, to your point, it's because we're letting worry or fear or shame, like, I'm not as big.

And so it is.

Those are real things that come.

We're going to.

That are going to confront us.

And we have to just remind ourselves that to your point, it's.

Is he calling me to do this?

Right.

And like you said, is it one person or 100, a thousand, or 10,000 people or 10 million?

It doesn't matter.

It's that we're showing up and we're sharing what God has, you know, or leading or ministering how God's asked us to do it.

Yeah.

I think it's.

It is almost like a pushback on what the culture tells us.

Because Jesus says, if you have faith the size of a grain of mustard seed.

So I love how he uses small things to start moving forward.

But it's also in the small steps that God, I think, grows us the most.

Yeah, but I.

I would hate for anybody listening to Wait.

We.

Shelly Giglio calls it destination, destination addiction.

So we are addicted to the destination, but we miss sight of the power of process and how God actually has wired us to be transformed in the process.

So, yeah, I often.

It's.

It's.

It's related to that.

It might not sound like it at first.

I often have to remind myself that it's the power of the present moment, where it's in the small details of my day that often have much more impact in my changing my heart and in God's world, you know, like taking.

Taking time out of my day and going and see my dad, who has pretty advanced Parkinson's, or it's going and doing something for a neighbor.

So I think sometimes we forget it's.

It's the small things that have great impact instead of the big thing that we do that we think we might be doing that day.

And so I often have to remind myself of that, that it's in those moments that we're changing minds or ideas or parts or whatever it might be.

Yeah.

Oh, you're right.

I have to remind myself the same thing.

So what would you share with us?

Some people listening might think, well, this whole idea of leadership.

And maybe they've heard messages in the.

Where women aren't meant to lead, you know, especially in the church.

And so, of course, the Bible's filled with examples, and your book goes through so many of them.

What would you just share with people, you know, that maybe haven't heard, you know, more about the women of the Bible and how they were the helpers and they were helping build the church.

Mary being the first Right to be there or to be told, you know, hey, I'm Jesus, he's back.

Right.

And so why don't you just share with us to encourage us as women to show up?

Yeah.

And.

Yeah, because I'm sure that people listening are in all varied.

So.

And the point of my book is not to convince you of anything.

I don't think theology should be weaponized.

I don't think it's for combat.

I think it's for confidence.

And so the whole idea is to make you hungry.

And I, for many of us, we have just believed a theology that's unchecked.

Like, we haven't really.

Like, we've just Been handed it.

We haven't necessarily done the research ourselves.

And even though I was leading in ministry, it wasn't until I went back to school, which, you know, the reason why.

Why I wrote the book is you don't have to go back to school.

Just read the book.

It was when I went back to school that I became fascinated with, okay, well, is there other scriptures besides Joel Tool that talks about women having a voice?

And so it.

This is what really spurred on the book was this revelation that Mary was in the garden with the burial spices, her and a few other women after Jesus had died on the cross.

So they go back to this garden tomb, and they're getting ready to dress his body.

And Mary notices that the tomb is empty.

And so she runs to get Peter, and John comes back, back.

This is John, chapter 20, Peter and John, they come, they look, they don't.

The tomb's empty.

And then Mary, after they leave, Mary takes a second look.

And I just think, to me, that's the whole theme of this whole book.

Can we take a second look at what we've always believed?

Yeah.

Can we take a second look at the failures?

Can we take a second look at the obstacles that we're facing and just kind of see them differently?

So when she looks differently, looks again, this time it's not empty, but she sees two angels.

So I can't imagine, like, that's like heaven on earth in the middle of this tomb, this dead place.

And they're saying to her, why are you crying?

Who are you looking for?

And then she notices.

She begins to explain to them.

And then she notices next to her who she considers to be the gardener, which obviously is Jesus.

But I don't think it's any mistake that she thinks he's the gardener.

So he asks her, you know, who are you looking for?

Why are you crying?

And she begins to talk to him and tell him the story, like she doesn't recognize him because he showed up different.

And I think a lot of times in our own lives, we miss where Jesus is showing up because he's shown up different than the way we expect.

Won't show up a certain way with the answer.

And he's shown up different.

So anyways, they start talking, and then he says her name, which was familiar, but I'm sure different because there's resurrection on his voice.

And her response to him is raboni, which means teacher.

Okay, so if we don't understand cultural context, then we wouldn't understand how unusual this was.

And culturally not accepted.

So Women in that day were.

They would learn.

They had learned some of the law, the Judaic law, because they had to, you know, do Passover meals, whatever.

There were specific purity laws, but they were not part of the deep teaching that a rabbi would do.

Jesus was the only rabbi who had a co ed followership, which was stunning.

Like, if you don't.

Like this blew my mind.

I hadn't even thought about it.

Because we have no problem in our church today.

And so then Jesus Raboni, he doesn't correct her and say, no, women can't be taught.

No.

What he responds with is so groundbreaking.

He says, go tell my brothers that I've risen from the dead.

This was the, this was the scripture that shifted everything for me.

Because in this, this, like, if you don't again, understand the culture, in that culture, a woman's testimony could not be allowed in a court of law.

Legally, she had no value to her voice.

Women, children, slaves had no value.

They were considered almost like dirt there was.

But yet Jesus shows up to a woman and says, go tell.

So he gives her a voice.

He's given all of us a voice.

And I love this, that she is standing.

Because if, if you don't connect the whole Bible, the Bible's one cohesive story.

So she's in the second garden with Jesus, who has just redeemed the sin from the first garden in Genesis.

And the promise over Eve was that her seed would crush the head of the enemy.

Well, Jesus has just crushed the head of the enemy by being raised from the dead.

And he's now with a woman.

So for thousands of years, women's women have had no value then marginalized because they were the ones who were the temptress.

And now Jesus, he could have showed up to Peter and John.

They were just there.

It wasn't like he was having coffee and he forgot.

He was like, shoot, too late.

Well, Mary's here.

No, he was intentional because he was redeeming, restoring the garden that Adam lost, speaking to a woman and giving her a voice.

And so those words still echo over us.

They're not like, just.

And it wasn't just tell resurrection as a noun.

It's.

I'm like preaching a whole message right here.

But I'm so fired up about this because I feel like, why have we missed this?

Why did I miss it?

My whole entire life?

Like, even though my husband gave me permission, I often felt like, do I have permission to speak?

But this is Jesus, the head of the church, giving the woman a voice.

And those Words go tell are echoing like, wherever you're listening to this podcast right now, those words still have life to them.

They haven't died.

They're not expired.

They're.

God is still speaking over you.

You have a voice as a female.

And what did he tell her to say?

That I've risen from the dead.

So resurrection, obviously, is a noun, powerful, the most important event in all of history.

But resurrection is a verb and a lifestyle.

So we have the power in our mouths from the head of the church to speak life over any graveyard or anything that appears like it's hopeless.

We can declare hope into the darkest places.

And so I think that's why the battle has been so intense over women's voices Hidden.

Wow.

I didn't know that the head of the church gave me permission to use my voice.

And so.

And then there's more studies throughout.

But that's, to me, was the initial, like, aha moment in the scriptures that then led me down a trail to study even more.

Okay, well, if Jesus gave her a voice, what else did Jesus do with women?

So, so powerful.

I mean, obviously, so powerful.

Wow.

Thank you for sharing that on the podcast as well as obviously in the book.

So what.

What would you tell us about Here I Am?

You know, you talk about that throughout the book.

What is it?

He may.

Right.

So I know you kind of.

There's different parts throughout the book.

You keep bringing that up.

So what would you just share with us about that concept?

So, honestly, I.

I'm not sure that I'm saying it correctly either.

So, yeah, it's a very sacred Hebrew term.

And anytime you see the phrase here I am or here am I, it literally is that term, hanen.

And that was used generally, like Moses said it, Abraham said it, Isaiah said it, Paul said it.

Like, here, here I am, here am I.

It's a.

It's a.

It's a surrender.

It's not kind of like, here I am over here.

Like, don't forget about me.

Did you hear my prayer?

It's more like, okay, here, here am I.

And it's at a cross point.

It's at a crossroads.

It's a pivot point.

It's kind of like, lord, I don't fully understand what's happening, but you got me.

I'm.

I'm here.

I'm saying, yes.

And I think oftentimes that we.

If we miss the surrender, then we miss the revelation that God wants to show us in the middle of where we are, the transformation, because we're still wrestling with what we're going through rather than just, I don't understand, like, I still don't understand three quarters of the things I went through.

I know now that what I learned is invaluable.

But it was my surrender, and I wonder if we've lost the art of surrender.

And so that was why I put that in the book.

And at the end of every chapter, I give you a moment to have a Hane moment so you can actually process what God's speaking to you in the.

In the book.

Yeah.

No, it's.

It's.

It's.

I mean, not just the term.

Right.

And what it means, but, yeah, it's woven in lovely.

Because to your point, it's.

It's.

Are we surrendering?

Are we saying yes to what God is trying to take us into, even when we're not really certain.

Right.

What that turn or that path is?

And so it's.

It's quite beautiful.

Thank you for sharing that.

So what about.

I know probably near later in the book, you talk about how do we learn and discover and use what God's made us for, but what kind of tools?

I know you talk about assessments and our understanding, our gifts, but what would you say for so many of us that maybe haven't done a assessment or we.

We're not familiar with enneagram or whatever it might be.

Like, are there tools?

Are there things that you say, look, we can be women of God.

We can step into more if we better understand who he made us to be.

So what would you share with us about that?

I think.

I think probably the first part of that is recognizing that he's good, he loves you, and that he's entrusted you with something.

So again, I oftentimes don't see what God's entrusted me with because I'm comparing my one talent.

The Bible talks tells a story about the talents.

So I compare my one talent with you.

You are doing a podcast, so you must have at least three or five talents.

So then, just like the story of the talents, I can hide because I feel entitled to more.

My insecurity makes me feel like, well, when God gives me more, then I'll use it.

So first of all, the understanding and the knowledge that God's entrusted you with something.

The second thing is it's just like, what do you do?

What do you love?

Like, ask yourself the question, what gives me the most life?

Like, where do I feel the most connected to who I am?

God will always use your experience.

He will use your failures.

I was sexually abused as a child.

That's story of how God has healed me, has brought healing, and has shut down shame for thousands of women because I was willing to share that story.

So I think that's the first thing, like maybe make a list, like where do I feel the most alive?

Or where did I feel the most tension?

Or where are the areas that I want to hide the most?

Like actually write them down because that's oftentimes where God has given you an entrustment.

I think the second thing is, is that if you're in a situation and you keep seeing problems, opportunities often come dressed like a problem.

So if you're seeing the problem, then you most likely are part of the solution.

And the solution often, like you may not have the wisdom or the know how, how to fix that.

But first of all, you can start with prayer and then you can ask God, what am I supposed to do with this problem that I'm seeing?

And how can you use whatever you've entrusted me with to see the situation changed?

And so I, I find oftentimes my greatest entrustment grew.

So where our church was, was in a area that was, had a lot of disadvantaged children and families and there was a lot of drug use and grandmas raising their kids.

And so, but, and we kept inviting these people to church and they, they just weren't coming to church.

So I, I was like, okay, this is a problem, but why don't we bring church to them?

So we bought an old truck and let the side down into a platform.

And you know, I'm the worst.

I have no rhythm at all, at all.

Doesn't matter what kind of music you're playing.

For me, I have no rhythm.

So we start playing all kinds of hip hop music.

My kids, I brought my kids with me.

I, I had four kids.

The oldest was 13 at this point, just brought them with me when knocking on doors, invited these kids, had snacks, and then we had food bags for the families.

And I have no idea what I'm doing and I'm terrified, but I see a need and a problem and I just said yes.

And honestly, I think that's probably one of the places where my leadership grew the most because then I was able to learn how to build a team and I was able to.

It was the need and the problem that helped me discover the gift that was inside of me.

And oh my gosh, still brings tears to my eyes when I think about the families that were transformed by a scared yes.

I love that.

Yeah.

And so many of us have those scared yeses.

The question is just, are we going to be willing to take that first step right in that direction?

So, yeah, I love that.

So what would.

So one thing, you know, the sort.

Of talks about something.

We talked about this a little bit earlier, but you have a whole chapter in the book about the obstacle, you know, obstacles.

And we did kind of touch on that a little bit with the fear and the shame.

But what would you just share with us about walking through obstacles and why that's so important?

Right.

Because a lot of us want to just go, maybe it's good the other way.

Right.

You know, the grits, but the grit and why we need to kind of keep going towards that obstacle or in some cases at least.

No, that's good.

And actually, you know, there was a couple of books that I read in my leadership journey that kind of transformed the way I looked at even finding your gifting.

And one of them was Anna Duckworth wrote a book called Grit and she did.

She's a researcher and she did.

You've probably.

I don't know if you've read the book, but it's phenomenal because she did this research and she dispels the idea that the only people that are successful are people with huge amounts of talent.

But it's generally, it's the practice, it's the continuance to continue using what you have, pushing past the obstacles.

I mean, that's obviously how muscle grows, right?

You keep lifting resistance weights.

And so I found because.

Because I am so driven that.

And I like results.

And if I'm going to plan something, I want to make sure that I see the outcome that I'm working towards.

And oftentimes what.

What hindered me is I carry the weight of the outcome more than just the weight of obedience.

Saying, yes, are you like that too?

Like, it just drives me nuts about some things.

But no, I've just heard an amazing quote that's exactly about that.

That that's sort of what holds us back, is worrying about.

I'll have to find it later.

But when we focus on the outcome, instead of just what is it we're supposed to be working on it, it can literally just cause everything, the anxiety, the stress, all this stuff.

But.

Sorry to interrupt you.

Sorry.

Good, keep going.

No, no, I wanted to hear the quote.

Send it to me.

So I do, I do think so.

But anybody from Mozart to Bach to any, anybody who.

Artists, masters of any.

Anything, it's been the continual practice of doing it over and over again, even though it feels boring.

And Eugene Peterson defines It he calls it in his book Along Obedience in the Same Direction, which I can highly recommend.

It's one of the most.

He wrote this to his church as a discipleship book.

But he said it's that simply that it's a long obedience in the same direction.

Which honestly sounds boring to me because I like a party, I like spontaneity.

I'm like, who wants to do the same thing in the same direction for a long time?

But that's only when you forget who you're walking with and when you remember who you're walking with, which is Jesus, it's that long obedience that you get to develop this intimacy with Him.

He also defines it as, rather than sitting in an academic classroom, it's like you.

You're sitting at the feet of a master craftsman who transforms you from the inside out.

So that long obedience, just saying yes, even when you don't see the results, which I would say, in the last 40 years, it's been a good portion.

I haven't seen the results.

First it was just saying yes, even when I didn't see it.

Just feeling that invitation from God, that's when I saw personally the most transformation.

And then that's where you develop grit.

And I tell the story in that chapter about Hagar, which I love this story because she was marginalized.

She was not really accepted.

Like, she did what she was being told to do, but then finds herself in the wilderness without any hope.

And the only reason she has this baby, her son Ishmael, is because, you know, it was Sarah and Abraham who kind of pushed her into this position.

And now she has no water, no food, and she's put her son underneath a bush to die from dehydration.

And then God speaks to her.

And I love that she's the.

She names God, the one who sees me.

So even in that long obedience in the same direction, you're walking with a God who sees you.

But I also love this so much.

I don't know why I didn't see this before, but all of a sudden, when she's like, surrendered to God, she sees God.

He reveals himself.

Then she sees a well that was there the whole time.

It was there the whole time, but she just didn't see it.

And why didn't some wells you're only going to find in the hardest places, the deepest wells you're going to find in the hardest places.

And more often than not, the well you're going to find is inside of you because you've said yes, and you've developed the grit to keep going.

So even if it feels like your dream is dying or it's not what you want it to, and you're like, it's dehydrated.

It needs something, there's a well inside of you.

That part of it is just speaking resurrection and discovering your voice.

But I just want to encourage you, don't give up.

If whoever is listening, don't give up.

Whether it was a business idea or a relationship or whatever it is, don't give up.

Just keep speaking resurrection over it.

Yeah, I love that.

I.

So what about.

Just.

Are there any topics that you think would be most helpful?

You know, of course you talk about healing and emotional health.

Checking, you know, checking in with our heart, you know, or the soil.

Check.

But there's so many things and we're not going to get to all of them.

So are there.

Is there another maybe topic or concept in the book that you think is just really powerful that you want to share?

You know, the book is the foundation is like, again, you have a voice speak.

You know, And I do think that that terminology you have, you have a voice is overused.

That's why I didn't include it in the title, because there's a million books on this.

But you do have a voice.

And I think as women, we can often be in situations where we don't feel like we're being heard.

Like, in the early days, I was the only female in a leadership table, and.

And so I had to learn how to communicate.

Oftentimes I would whisper to my.

I knew what the answer was, or I had an idea for the strategy, but I would whisper to my husband what it was because I didn't.

Because I had said things in the past and wasn't heard simply because of my gender.

So I had to learn a couple things.

So this chapter is Nobody's Listening.

I just try to walk you through a couple ways of how to communicate.

One of the things I had to learn was that if you're in a room with men, get to the point and tell the story later.

Like, you have to get to the bottom line and just say, this is the bottom line and I'll explain it later.

Or come in with humility.

Like, don't come in with a chip on your shoulder because nobody's listening to you.

It's super easy to do that and get kind of bitter, like, okay, well, whatever.

I'm at the table too.

Can you not hear me?

But I found that that heart of serving and humility opens more doors.

But What I did discover in writing this chapter, I started out as I was going to write a chapter on how women can communicate with men.

And it shifted as I started doing research because our brain immediately goes into assumption communication.

And I can't tell you how many relationships, how many projects have been thrown off the ship because I assumed I, I knew what somebody was saying because my brain automatically goes down this trail.

And they've done studies of the amount of people that are, have a little bit of deafness.

And our brain is wired to compensate for what we don't hear.

Or if you're like on social media and you're you and there's an, it's kind of like an algorithm, keeps going down the same trail of whatever you're interested in, that's what your brain does.

So then you start hearing through that perception.

So I talk about how to shut that down.

But to me, one of the most mind blowing things is that Jesus led by asking questions.

So Jesus has in The Gospels recorded 300 questions.

The first time we hear God's voice in Genesis, he's asking a question.

The first time we hear Jesus's voice, he's asking a question.

When he raises, when he's being raised from the dead, he asks the question, who are you looking for?

I mean, it's profound.

And so I discovered that probably one of the greatest keys to being an influencer or a leader is curiosity.

Yes.

And asking good.

Even if you just start, like in the book, I list some of the questions Jesus asks.

Even if you just start with those, like how can I help you?

Or what do you want from me?

Or, or who are you looking for?

What are you looking for?

Like those basic questions I found can take even a distressful tension, build conflict, conversation, to a place of peace and resolution.

If I just know how to ask the right questions, because then I'm more interested in what you think than what I know.

And they have done studies that the greatest leaders are those who are willing to ask questions and collaborate with their team.

I never want to be the smartest person in the room.

Well, I'm never, I never feel like I'm the smartest person in the room.

But I don't want to be the smartest person in the room.

I want to learn from everybody that's around me.

So I think getting really good at asking questions and becoming curious just kind of disarms, especially in the culture and the season we're in right now.

Like we're not even going to talk about politics, but just life.

Like how great would it be on social media if people were just asking questions rather than just as Christians railing each other because of our belief systems?

Like I if I didn't know Jesus, I wouldn't want Jesus if you're representing him by that rather than how he led.

Absolutely agree with you on that note.

And yeah, I so align with your comment.

And I love that you had it in the book about curiosity.

I've talked about curiosity.

And you know, I know you talk about being a lifelong learner.

I mean, to me it's very near and dear to my heart.

Even before I did all the other things I did, I in 2008 had and still have a international national family related family fun and educational site for kids, teachers, homeschoolers.

With my mom, I founded.

And so even back then we were sparking creativity and curiosity, you know, in kids and families with our content.

And so for me, that theme has been going on for a long time, like knowing the importance of it, you know, So I love that you shared that.

So let me ask you though, before we start kind of wrapping this up, what we what's something we haven't talked about yet that you think is the most important message you want women to take away from this conversation?

Oh, maybe two things.

One is stop defending who you're not.

Become curious to who God has entrusted you to be.

Like, become curious.

We just talked about that.

I think I have a PhD on telling you why I can't do something and who I'm not.

Well, I'm not.

Whatever.

I spent way too long doing that.

Rather than just asking that, which is the whole book, I hope to guide you through that.

Like how, how can you discover who you are?

And then the second thing I think is that you've been entrusted.

So it's perspective.

So the difference between being entitled and entrusted, I always thought entitlement was just ego driven.

Like you feel entitled to a position or a seat at the table.

I would say, I'm sure, like there's people listening that maybe have that posture.

I would say the second aspect of entitlement is probably what most women wrestle with and that is insecurity.

So the second aspect of entitlement is I feel entitled to more before I use what I have.

So I become an expert on what I don't have.

So God, when you give me more or whatever it is, then I'll start using it.

And so I think entitlement has made us miss what we've already been entrusted with.

And that was like in the first garden Adam and Eve, I think we talked about this, but they already, you know, the enemy tempts them with the one tree they're not supposed to eat from helping them or luring them to forget what they've already been entrusted with.

And so make a list.

What do you love to do?

I.

I don't want another generation of women wrestling with the wrong perspective and not being used.

I mean, graveyards are full of unused potential.

I want to stand in front of Jesus and he says, well done, good and faithful servant.

And also, by the way, let's not forget, Jesus already paid the price for everything that you have.

So I don't want to waste the grace.

I don't want you to waste the grace.

I mean, it was a very costly price of his life for you to walk with the entrustment that you have.

So I love that you talk about that too, because I definitely see that with a lot of women, which is we spent.

We spend so much time caring for other people, serving other people that.

Right.

Especially midlife women tend to lose sight of who God made them to be.

And they think that by pursuing interests or past interests or hobbies or passions or dreams that maybe that's selfish.

But you know, I've even done whole workbooks on reignite your passion.

But it's.

How do we step into what God has for us?

By knowing who he uniquely made us to be.

Right.

And so I think somehow we've thought that if we think of what's.

What do we like doing?

What are we good at?

What has God made us curious about?

We think that's selfish, but it's so not selfish because he.

He made us each so different to like different things, to be sad about certain things.

Right.

Like you said, to have past experiences or traumas or whatever that might be.

Yeah, yeah.

That's so good.

You're right.

I don't think we take care of ourselves.

You're right.

We're so, so not wanting to be.

So we love giving.

We're givers.

Right?

That's right.

Nurturers from the get go.

Like you need nurturing.

Just I can nurture the person at the.

In the grocery store.

Right.

Getting fruit.

But you're right, we get going so much that sometimes we.

And also, I mean, that's a big point too.

Is that in every season, like this season I'm in.

The entrustment that I have for this season looks different.

It's all the other seasons that fed into this one, but it looks different.

So every season it requires a.

Okay.

God, what do you want to.

Here I am.

Here am I.

What do you want to do with this season?

And so you're right.

We can get so busy taking care of everybody else that we haven't taken.

And that's great, right?

But sometimes it's just stepping back for a minute.

It's like, lord, do you have more.

How do I.

Is there somebody I'm supposed to see something I'm supposed to say, the Holy Spirit is more desiring for us to lean into whatever God has given us in this season than we are?

I mean, we want to hear it, but he wants us to hear it even more.

So.

Yeah.

And I think there's probably entrepreneurs that have tried in the past starting a business.

And this is just your encouragement from God.

Don't stop.

Keep going.

Build on even the things that you consider are failures.

And some of you have kids that you're like, lord, do something with.

These children, I raised them to follow Jesus, but they're not right now.

The power of a praying mama is, like, huge.

And just keep speaking life over them because you'll see God turn things around.

Some of you, it's your marriage, wherever you are right now, God wants to use this moment to pull out of you an entrustment that you probably didn't even know was there or use what he's already given you.

Don't.

Don't minimalize it.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I mean, I love.

Obviously, you're in D.C.

so you probably were.

You probably know Mark Patterson, right?

And.

Yeah, but I mean, in his books, I love, you know, that he talks about.

And I forget if it was where he pulled that from, but you know, that so many times we think our problems are bigger than God.

We forget that God is so much bigger than our problems.

Right.

And that, like you said, he is so much bigger.

And yet if we don't keep praying like that, we can think, like you said, my marriage is struggling or my kids are struggling, or, you know, I don't know what to do with myself.

And we can focus on that instead of focus on.

On what he can do that's so beyond even our.

We could fathom, you know, and so I love that you shared that encouragement with people about.

Just keep on, you know, just keep praying for whatever it is that you're walking through, because it's so important.

So, Donna, let me ask you what my last question I think is.

What's fueling you up in this season?

You know, you've just moved.

You have all these transitions going on.

So what's filling you up in life right now.

Honestly, what I'm doing, I just love this season that I get to use all of what I walk through right now to encourage others.

And I do think that sometimes leadership or influence is a lonely place because you're not sure where safe spaces are.

Or maybe you had a safe space that blew up.

So I love becoming that or creating circles of safe spaces.

So that is, I think probably what's really fueling me the most.

And then also in the season of transition, there's like some things I'm like, I'm not super sure what's happening or what's next.

Like, like you're doing a podcast.

Like, do I do a pod?

I don't know.

I don't want to do anything at this point in life that God's not inviting me to do, because we all know what that feels like.

Well done.

I've done that in the past.

I'm like, it's way too much work.

But I do feel like that's my time with Jesus.

I mean, at the end of the day, my first appointment of the day is with Jesus.

So that's probably what's fueling.

I have through the years developed that.

So that's fueling me.

What I'm doing is fueling me.

My grandkids are fueling me.

Yeah.

And then also I would like last note for anybody who's struggling with like your idea, your identity, or your self esteem or insecurity is I would just encourage you to put a reminder on your phone of what God says about you to me.

And I do that in every season.

Like, what is it that God says about.

So five times a day the reminder comes up.

It changes in the season so that it counter.

You can't stop a thought that's contrary to God's word.

You have to replace it.

And so when you were talking about curiosity, it's like, become curious.

That's right.

Then remind yourself so that it becomes a new neural pathway about who you are.

So I think that's the word of God.

Time with him and doing what you love is fueling what's fueling you?

Oh, my goodness.

Yeah.

I mean, I think one of the things is definitely learning, you know, continuing to.

I think every week I order so many books, it's kind of ridiculous, you know, And I just kind of dig into six at the same time.

But, you know, you have course time with.

I mean, of course time with God and being outside, you know, especially nature walks, you know, just going and walking.

And I Have a micro practice or a gratitude and thankfulness practice.

So all day long, you know, some days I don't do it, but most days it's just a conversation constantly.

It might be even about, of course, big thanks and gratitude.

But even, oh, my gosh, this basil in my sandwich is so amazing.

Like, how did you come up with this flavor?

You know, so it's just this constant, I think, that always keeps me grounded and fueled.

And, of course, time with my family and my friends, you know, just being around people, you know, in community.

So.

Yeah.

But yeah.

So thank you so much for joining us today.

Donna, can you share with people how can they find out more about your books and everything else you're up to and just connecting with you online?

Thank you.

Yeah, you can follow me on Instagram, Donna Pisani.

I am on Facebook as well, or Donna Pisani.org.

it's.org is my website, so you can find the book on Amazon or wherever books are sold.

And yeah, I'm excited about the future.

Thank you so much.

What an honor.

Thank you.

It was great to have you on.

You shared so much wisdom and just insights and encouragement with us.

And your book is a beautiful book.

I definitely encourage people to check that out if this conversation interests you.

And thanks again for joining us today.

Thank you.

I hope you got a lot out of today's conversation.

I know I did.

I know.

It really spoke to my heart.

Just wanted to share a couple final things with you as we wrap up today's episode.

First is I had mentioned a quote about over or I'm sorry about outcomes.

I find the original quote, but I can share with you what I wrote about it after reading that quote.

And here's what I had said.

Are you an overthinker?

I can be.

Overthinking happens because we are focused on what the outcome will be.

We want to stop overthinking.

We have to focus on taking action.

This is when we stop overthinking.

Remember, we can't control the outcome, but we can control our effort and attitude.

So that's the first thing I want to share with you.

The next thing that I wanted to share with you about today's episode is I think two things.

One is I love that Donna said you guard what has.

I'm sorry, we guard what has value.

And that God values us and we need to be reminded of that.

I love that we talked about the idea of destination addiction because it so much more has to do with the work we're doing, that how we're showing up to be present if we have open hearts and asking questions.

I love how she shared about Jesus leading by asking questions, that he asks over 300 questions and that we need to ask questions.

We need to get curious, you know, both when we're talking to other people, you know, how can I help you?

What is it you need?

You know, is there anything I can do for you?

And that we talked about.

Every season looks different and that it's so important to be reminded that we are uniquely made and we need to take care of ourselves.

We need to nurture and give to others, but we also need to do the same for ourselves.

And we need to know what do we love doing?

What's the work or the service or ministry that God is wanting us to step into, maybe in bigger ways in the season we're in or in the transition that we're moving through.

And so those are just some of the things that I want to share.

With you as we wrap up.

Hope today has really given you some food for thought.

Maybe, you know, there is a blessing in something we shared with you.

I want to wrap up with the Bible verse and then just remind, remind you of one other thing.

The bible verse is 1 Timothy 3, 8, 13, which says, for those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

And deacons obviously can be someone that serves in that role in a church, but the word actually comes from Diakonos and that actually means servant.

So if you read it like that, we're all called to be servants.

So it would say for those who serve well as servants gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

So we're all called to be servants.

And when we are wearing good standing, but we also gain confidence, which Donna shared with us today a little bit about confidence and why it's so important that we use God's word to build confidence, to gain confidence and not to use it as a weapon.

And I thought that that was so wonderful.

All right, last thing is, if you haven't already, head on over to my website and grab the Reignite your passion workbook, because I think today kind of hit home that it's so important for us to rekindle those dreams, the desires, maybe things that just pull on our heartstrings that God wants us to step into.

Remember how we're uniquely made, what interest do we have, what causes matter to us?

And so go grab that.

You just go to KristenFitch.com you can get it on my home page or you can go to my freebies page.

Go over and grab that now and start stepping into more of what God has for you in your life.

Thanks again for listening to the show and if you enjoyed today's episode, we would love it if you could take a minute to leave a rating and review on Apple Podcast because it helps our show get discovered by more people.

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