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Uh, we ready?

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Time for some action.

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Um, hello and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.

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I am Andy Orian.

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Alongside me is the fabulous bit a start.

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Hi, Andy.

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Lovely.

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And today we are joined by Grace Blakely.

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Hello.

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Is that right?

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You have yes.

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Yes, yes, yes.

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Grace is an economics and politics commentator, columnist, journalist and author.

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She's a writer for the Tribune, a panelist on talk tv and was previously the economics.

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Commentator of the new statesman.

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Very good.

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Well, that's not a bad list.

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Uh, so how are we doing?

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Grace?

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Welcome to the podcast.

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I'm all good.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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It's good to be here.

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No problem.

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Um, so we always start with a very simple question, which is, uh, what's keeping you up at night, grace?

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God, what isn't keeping me up at night at the moment?

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I mean, I've just come back from quite a long holiday, so I feel like I've kind of stepped away from all of the chaos and had a bit of a relax.

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But I think that's just the perennial worry of you can't really, as.

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Gap it, of just what's happen happening to the climate.

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I mean, there's news every day, I think, um, from various different parts of the world, just of very strange and unprecedented weather events and things.

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It's getting a lot warmer and all that sort of stuff.

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So I think that is, In the back of my mind, this kind of urgent thing that's always, you know, always there, really, and I think it's for a lot of people of my generation actually and younger.

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Is there anything that will make people do anything about it?

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It's hard really, because, you know, I think a big problem with the way we talk about climate change is it all comes down to kind of individual actions and individual responsibilities.

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And that that's actually a narrative that the big fossil fuel companies work.

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To push, you know, they were, BP created the idea of the, the carbon footprint to say, oh, please don't regulate us.

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Just make sure people, you know, buy tote bags and don't use plastic straws and all that sort of stuff.

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Whereas actually, you know, if we really wanna tackle climate change, you've gotta just change the whole structure of the economy, how we generate electricity, how we get around, how we produce things.

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So it requires like a really big structural shift in the way that the economy works basically, rather than just people trying to be nice.

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And so the Green New Deal, Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah.

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What's the Green New Deal?

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It actually came out of the uk.

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Oh, did it?

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Yeah.

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The initial version of it came out after the financial crisis, which was this whole idea from, you know, a bunch of economists and politicians got together and said, we need a a stimulus package post-crisis that's gonna actually solve these climate problems.

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Then it went over to the US where it was picked up by the squad, you know, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, et cetera, and then kind of came back here.

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But now it's been, it's been kind of squashed, I think in, in the labor manifesto.

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Unfortunately.

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It's basically all your kind of power should be.

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Renewable green, like you should stop the FARC with coal mines and getting oil out of the North Sea and all that stuff.

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Yeah.

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Should be, we should be planning to get rid of it.

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Yeah.

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And it's also things like, you know, retrofitting housing stocks so that it's much more environmentally friendly, you know, investing in different forms of transportation, like renewable energy, all that electric coals.

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Yeah.

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I mean if you take the house one, having, having looked at it recently, you know, it's, it's.

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It's a chicken and an egg situation.

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You know, I, I went to an expert on it and, and I mean, immediately started telling me they were just sort of, you know, warning me how much it was gonna cost as much.

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Well, you're gonna like, put insulation in your house or something.

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You've got, you've gotta use the um, uh, heat exchanges, but then you've gotta actually completely rebuild your house, cuz it only works if you've got under floor heating with piping, which is, you know, major.

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So, I mean, A quick examination suggested it might cost 60 to a hundred thousand pounds to sort my house out, which was more than we were gonna spend on an extension, you know?

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Yeah.

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I mean, this obviously would have to be something that would, you'd be supported by the government and the whole idea of it as part of this stimulus package, which is what the Green New Deal is supposed to be about, is that, you know, this is classic.

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Keynesian economics is that you are investing in infrastructure that's gonna last for a long time and support, you know, sustainability as well as growth.

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And you're creating jobs now in the context in in which they're needed.

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It's a little bit more challenging.

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Suggest now, given that we've got these high levels of inflation.

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The whole idea was to do it.

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Immediately after, at first the financial crisis, then the pandemic, when the economy needed a bit of a boost.

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Arguably it still does now, but you have got these inflationary pressures, some of which by the way do come from the problems associated with climate change.

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It's becoming increasingly difficult for us to feed ourselves in the environment in which we've created, and that's why a big part of why food prices have gone up so much actually.

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So yeah, it is a bit of a chicken and egg problem in the sense we need to spend money.

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In order to fix some of these problems, otherwise everything's gonna get more expensive.

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Is it part of an issue that we've got a government where a lot of the government is both insulated from the problems that a lot of the rest of us have to deal with and also has vested interest on the other side?

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Why's the government insulated from us?

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I guess you've got people like Rishi Soak who really would've noticed.

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He's gonna worry about it.

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My salary, right?

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Yeah, yeah.

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You know, it's like his.

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This is a man who we discovered last year, never used a credit card.

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What I'm trying to say is we've got a lot of people in government who live very different lives to the rest of us.

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You know, you've got Adam Sahari with his stables and his heating, his horses, and lots of them seem to have very different rarefied lives to us.

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And you wonder how much they understand what the rest of us are living with, even if they didn't, you know, you've still got the problem of kind of political

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donations and the influence that some of these big companies who have a vested interest in these issues not getting solved, have over the conservative party.

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And I'm thinking, Particularly of landlords and property developers and also some fossil fuel companies who, you know, have often quite clearly, and I've had conversations actually with mps about how some of these interests have actually stood in the way of things like solving the housing crisis.

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I mean, I, I, I'm just on a basic level, I'm like, we're talking about borrowing more money than I could even calculate so we can retrofit everyone's houses.

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I don't, I don't think that's easy for any government to go and do.

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Regardless, just because I have a big house, which by the way would cost me a fortune to, he, you know, cuz it's relative.

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Yeah.

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You know, you've got a big fucking house.

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The bill is pretty fucking big right now.

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So I dunno if that's connected to the fact that it might be Yeah, my frustration is actually the same thing.

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Is that, that the, the short term isnt that we live in Yeah.

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Whatever government we put in, no one is, and I can't get my head around.

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We've discussed, I cannot get my head around why someone doesn't come forward and say, This is what I'm gonna do.

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Yeah.

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This is my 20 year plan to get Britain and it's gonna get worse.

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By the way, it's almost, you know, Thatcher got lucky with Forland, and I know you hate her, but it's like, you know, at least it's like that you get the two terms and you gotta get lucky.

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Well, I mean, Thatcher was the last person to really fundamentally transform our economy.

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I think she did it in a really bad way, but you know, I.

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It was a big shift.

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Yeah.

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As you say.

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Yeah.

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And that is really the scale of the change that we need again right now.

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But nobody talks like that.

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Nobody comes out and says, right, here's my 20 year plan.

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You're gonna have to vote me in three times and it's gonna get really shit for 10 years.

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A bit like, you know what?

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It only happens like when South Korea goes through a war.

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Mm.

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Or Germany goes through a war and there's.

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Starting from nothing.

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Do they get to rebuild properly?

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We, you know, the problem with Britain winning the Second World War, inverted commas and all these things, goodness, that was, we quickly got to the second World War.

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No, but I mean, you always end up there.

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No, but, but, but we, you know, the problem with being the victor is we didn't really ever rebuild anything.

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Well, actually, I would kind of disagree with that because I was gonna say the last time that we borrowed a substantial amount of money, like huge, huge sums

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of money, much, the public debt to d DP ratio is much larger than, It was, you know, even after Thelan crisis was World War ii and what do we do after that?

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We didn't implement austerity.

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We had, you know, the creation of the nhs.

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We had a massive program of social health building.

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We had, well, that was funded by the American Marshall Plan.

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I mean, we Couldn have afford, well a little bit, but like ultimately over the long run we had this huge stock.

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Death.

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Death.

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Well, disparity was enormous.

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After the second World War For decades.

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Decades, no, we had this, we had this huge stock of debt.

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Yeah.

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And we invest.

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Did a huge amount in social, the house building in the nhs, and the creation of public services in education, in infrastructure.

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And because the economy was growing, partly because of that investment, we were able to recoup it over the long run.

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But surely this all comes down to, right, you are saying, why can't we look at things on a longer scale?

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And you know, everybody always says is, does nobody think of the children thing?

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Yeah.

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You know, but it comes down to the fact that human beings right are just a little bit too selfish, really.

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Like we all think of, oh my God, it's gonna be terrible for my, you know, I don't if kids, but it'd be terrible for my nieces.

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It'll be terrible for the next generation, but I'm okay.

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So I dunno.

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I mean, I feel like we are encouraged to.

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Think of ourselves and human beings and our society more broadly as selfish, but actually, you know, that kind of thinking almost creates the problem itself.

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Cuz if you think, oh, everyone's selfish, I've just gotta look after myself, you're less likely to kind of, yeah.

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Get involved in political campaigning or say join a a movement that's kind of pushing for change because you're like, oh, screw it.

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None.

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I'm just little old me.

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Exactly.

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What can I do?

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What make a difference?

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Yeah.

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Blah, blah, blah.

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No, exactly.

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I think if we actually changed the narrative there and thought.

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We broadly all want the same things.

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You know, we want to be able to live happy, healthy, fulfilled lives where we're not working all the time, where we can afford the basics, where our children are gonna be better off than, than we are.

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And you know, there are ways that we can work together to make that happen.

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Are you an economist at heart?

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Is that what you trained as?

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I w I don't think of myself as an economist at heart.

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I, I think of myself as in the vein of kind of lots of socialists as a critic of the whole idea of economics and of political economy.

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And obviously to do that you have to be versed.

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In a lot of the mainstream theory and stuff.

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But when I look at the way that most economists describe their profession, the way that they think about and talk about the economy, I see it as really alien cuz, and the biggest thing for me is that we have this idea of economics.

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It's completely divorced from politics, right?

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So you can construct a very nice model that's very, you know, mathematically elegant and you can predict people's behavior and you can say, right, and.

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These assumptions mean that the corporate tax rate needs to be X percent without ever really considering the wider political variables that are gonna feed into that.

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So, you know, people say, right, we need to have lower corporate tax rates because otherwise all the corporations will leave and no one actually thinks about the political climate.

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That, you know, determines whether or not that is the case, right?

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Like what other laws and regulations do we have surrounding corporation tax to determine whether or not that's true.

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So I see myself as kind of political economist really looking at the interaction between those two things.

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How does economics affect politics?

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How does politics affect economics?

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Uh, which I think gives you much more holistic view.

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Yeah, I think it's a nice way of putting it.

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Do you ever heard of someone Steve Keen?

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Yeah, I know Steve.

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He's a great guy.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Cuz he, he came on and he just said, The governments have got to stop listening to economists.

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Yeah.

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And they've gotta start listening to climate change people.

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Do you agree with that philosophy?

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I definitely agree that the government needs to stop listening to economists.

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Um, you know, yeah.

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I know a lot of economists and there are lots of great economists who, you know, I agree with who are progressive and like argue for policies that I broadly agree with.

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But even then, I think this kind of narrow view of human beings that the.

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Economics profession pushes and this narrow view of society, which is that everything can be broken down into micro little transactions.

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Yeah.

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We have needs or whatever.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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And you know, you can, it's all about maximizing people's utilities, subject to that bullshit, budget constraint, bullshit.

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It's all, it's just silly and it doesn't capture the complexity of our lives.

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Obviously it's not supposed to, but it also generates like policy suggestions and they say it's neutral, no policy suggestions come out of it, but they know that it does, that are just wrong and, and quite frankly, unsuitable for the world in which we live.

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So if we're trying to summarize, I mean, can you summarize your sort of the, the point that you are trying to make in terms of how.

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Governments should, should change their approach.

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What is it that they should do differently?

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We should think more long term, but I'd love that.

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But no one's doing it cuz they're voting in every four years.

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And I, I mean, other than I always joked whether we could have a sort of, um, what is it when they all press the buzzer and the chairs turn around.

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It's like you almost Yeah.

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The voice.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The forest always.

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I've seen that.

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Oh, I just wanted to government where you basically, you get in and until you get 80% of people hitting the buzzer you're in, you know?

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You know what?

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That is not far from what I think actually.

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Because I think for me, like the biggest challenge that we face, even before all of these economic problems, is actually democracy isn't really working.

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Mm-hmm.

215
00:12:08,780 --> 00:12:11,930
Um, support for democracy is quite low.

216
00:12:11,930 --> 00:12:14,780
And actually it's, you know, democracy in a lot of parts of the world is retreating.

217
00:12:14,780 --> 00:12:19,695
This is after we were told, you know, End of the fall of the Berlin Wall, democracy and capitalism are here.

218
00:12:19,725 --> 00:12:20,235
That's it one.

219
00:12:20,325 --> 00:12:20,715
Exactly.

220
00:12:20,715 --> 00:12:21,675
It's the end of history.

221
00:12:22,255 --> 00:12:23,625
Yeah, totally.

222
00:12:23,625 --> 00:12:33,945
And now it seems like the legitimacy of our political economic system is on decline and people are blaming the democratic element of it without really seeing the economic side of it.

223
00:12:33,945 --> 00:12:40,545
And for me, the reason that democracy's failing is because we have this very significant levels of inequality that mean that there's a kind of.

224
00:12:40,890 --> 00:12:51,540
Governing class, largely, largely speaking, who make a lot of the decisions, run a lot of the corporations, and you don't really understand, as you were saying, many of the problems that affect most people's lives.

225
00:12:51,570 --> 00:12:55,200
And most people feel, I would say, very powerless.

226
00:12:55,410 --> 00:12:57,030
I think that's what Brexit was about.

227
00:12:57,210 --> 00:12:59,520
I think that's what, I think that's what Trumpism is about.

228
00:12:59,525 --> 00:13:07,650
I think people see that they are being governed without really feeling like they, they have a say in how that governing process is taking place.

229
00:13:07,740 --> 00:13:13,935
And it's not good enough just to say, Vote in different politicians every four years, firstly, because you don't have a say over who you're voting for.

230
00:13:14,145 --> 00:13:20,745
But secondly, because there are all sorts of sources of, uh, decision making in government that completely insulated from democratic accountability.

231
00:13:20,865 --> 00:13:21,584
Democracy.

232
00:13:21,584 --> 00:13:31,485
To me, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, there's some problems, like there was a problem because of international travel and the way the world's internationally works now that we're no longer dealing with the national system.

233
00:13:31,485 --> 00:13:32,865
So a billionaire can live anywhere.

234
00:13:32,865 --> 00:13:34,005
He doesn't need to pay tax.

235
00:13:34,185 --> 00:13:34,964
And then you're like, oh.

236
00:13:35,125 --> 00:13:40,915
All of the money is in these thousand people they own, they have 70% of the money and they're the people who don't pay any tax.

237
00:13:40,915 --> 00:13:46,375
So there's just some, there's a tax person, there's some basic problems now of the fluidity of movement of people.

238
00:13:46,435 --> 00:13:52,285
But I think we, you know, again, we talk ourselves into a bit of a corner on this issue because this has been the narrative for a really long time.

239
00:13:52,285 --> 00:13:55,885
And this was a narrative that, um, a lot of people on the right really worked to push.

240
00:13:55,885 --> 00:13:56,965
It was the, which, what was the narrative?

241
00:13:56,965 --> 00:13:57,175
Sorry.

242
00:13:57,175 --> 00:14:00,475
That you can't tax the rich, you can't tax corporations because they'll just leave.

243
00:14:00,775 --> 00:14:00,805
Oh.

244
00:14:00,805 --> 00:14:02,515
And actually we do have.

245
00:14:02,550 --> 00:14:14,670
You know, especially as, uh, an economy as as large as we are and also, you know, potentially working with other wealthy economies as we were supposed to do through the O E C D, through the very nerdy base erosion and profit shifting, that sort of thing.

246
00:14:14,670 --> 00:14:15,810
That never really came to anything.

247
00:14:15,990 --> 00:14:30,295
But no, we do have some power to be able to raise tax rates and also clamp down on tax avoidance and evasion and to, you know, At least monitor, if not regulate the flows of, uh, of capital like across our borders.

248
00:14:30,745 --> 00:14:35,515
We just choose not to, you know, we choose not to invest in tackling tax avoidance and evasions.

249
00:14:35,724 --> 00:14:43,194
No, I love to get into the detail cuz I wanna solve some of these problems because here is the thing, a lot of anger is created, I think towards.

250
00:14:43,660 --> 00:14:44,200
Wealth.

251
00:14:44,230 --> 00:14:50,770
If, if so you are someone in the UK and you earn a million pounds a year and you've built a business and you employ 10 people fucking hate you.

252
00:14:50,830 --> 00:14:51,010
Mm-hmm.

253
00:14:51,070 --> 00:14:53,350
And yet you're putting half a million quid into the system.

254
00:14:53,355 --> 00:14:57,130
You probably privately educate your kid kids, you probably use private healthcare.

255
00:14:57,220 --> 00:15:01,390
Why are they the problem now for me, why they're, the problem is everyone's angry with the billionaires.

256
00:15:01,420 --> 00:15:02,650
You know, I've gotta be clear on this.

257
00:15:02,650 --> 00:15:07,270
If someone is resident, they live in this country, they go on holidays, but this is their home.

258
00:15:07,270 --> 00:15:12,430
And there's lots of very wealthy people who choose to do that cuz they love this country and that's where they want to be or that's where their family is.

259
00:15:12,725 --> 00:15:17,825
You pay a lot of tax internationally, you're at number 15 in the world of how much tax you pay.

260
00:15:17,915 --> 00:15:19,505
It's only Japan and places that pay crazy.

261
00:15:19,505 --> 00:15:24,275
Well, I mean, it really depends because we know that we lose huge amounts of money from tax avoidance.

262
00:15:24,305 --> 00:15:30,815
So obviously if you look at it in terms of the statistics, and you would say if someone were to earn this much money and they were to pay all their tax, they would pay a high rate of tax.

263
00:15:31,055 --> 00:15:32,435
But we know that we lose tons of money.

264
00:15:32,435 --> 00:15:33,125
It's quite hard.

265
00:15:33,125 --> 00:15:34,355
Tax avoidance and invasion every year.

266
00:15:34,565 --> 00:15:37,925
If you are full, if you are full-blown UK citizen, tax avoidance, quite hard.

267
00:15:38,125 --> 00:15:40,225
I have to say you could, you can be a fraudster.

268
00:15:40,225 --> 00:15:41,185
That's what we're talking about.

269
00:15:41,185 --> 00:15:41,985
You can be a, a fraud.

270
00:15:41,985 --> 00:15:42,305
I dunno.

271
00:15:42,305 --> 00:15:43,255
I mean it seems to happen.

272
00:15:43,255 --> 00:15:44,275
I don't think it is.

273
00:15:44,275 --> 00:15:44,665
It's quite easy.

274
00:15:44,665 --> 00:15:48,385
We've recently had one member of the cabinet have to resign because of it.

275
00:15:48,775 --> 00:15:50,945
Oh, you'd have to tell me exactly what, what, what, what they did.

276
00:15:51,025 --> 00:15:51,745
I dunno what you did.

277
00:15:51,745 --> 00:15:53,395
He again, it was international.

278
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:54,325
That was international.

279
00:15:54,325 --> 00:15:55,705
If you're talking about, if you got.

280
00:15:55,735 --> 00:15:58,945
If you've got international, if you are a foreigner, much more complicated, easy.

281
00:15:58,945 --> 00:16:02,245
If you're a brick, set up a shell company in the Caman Islands, whatever.

282
00:16:02,245 --> 00:16:02,785
No, it's not bollocks.

283
00:16:02,785 --> 00:16:04,765
There's actually, there's laws against that.

284
00:16:04,765 --> 00:16:09,895
Movement of assets abroad is really difficult to do, but you can create trusts and then know you can't anymore.

285
00:16:09,895 --> 00:16:11,915
You can take beneficial ownership and all that.

286
00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:20,725
You can't, the only trust you can do is every seven years you can put 325,000 pounds into a trust for your kids and that trust, you know, that's, that's it these days.

287
00:16:21,005 --> 00:16:31,295
It is really hard in this country to, to, to avoid tax whether the rate is high enough, but 50% seems to be about the point internationally that people start saying, fuck this for a game of soldiers.

288
00:16:31,295 --> 00:16:36,485
So there seems to be a sort of limit that once you start going above that, people think, well, I won't, it will demotivate me.

289
00:16:36,485 --> 00:16:37,775
I don't mind losing half.

290
00:16:37,865 --> 00:16:38,075
Okay.

291
00:16:38,075 --> 00:16:46,120
So if you are foreigner and you've entered the uk, if you've got, if you are able to move and live between different countries, Completely different kettle of fish.

292
00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:53,080
But if I'm sitting somewhere opposite someone, it doesn't matter if they've got a hundred million, if they live all of their life in here, they're gonna pay full tax.

293
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,319
You they, I am very annoyed that I don't have the statistic off the top of my head right now.

294
00:16:56,325 --> 00:16:57,130
I should have looked up before.

295
00:16:57,130 --> 00:17:00,520
I think the last time I checked it was something like 27 billion a year.

296
00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,290
Lost in avoidance and invasion.

297
00:17:02,295 --> 00:17:03,160
But don't quote me on that.

298
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:04,299
I think that was from Richard Murphy.

299
00:17:04,810 --> 00:17:08,800
Who's written a very good book about tax avoidance, but you know, avoidance is not illegal.

300
00:17:08,829 --> 00:17:09,399
Well, exactly.

301
00:17:09,399 --> 00:17:13,629
That's the point I was making about No, but avoidance is just arranging your affairs that you, you in a right way.

302
00:17:13,629 --> 00:17:15,369
And there aren't that many ways around it.

303
00:17:15,429 --> 00:17:17,980
I sit in front of people every day who are like, what can I do?

304
00:17:17,980 --> 00:17:19,540
There must be so, and I'm like, not much.

305
00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:27,310
I mean, you could do this and that might lower that, but we should be arranging the tax system in such a way that it's quite difficult to do that because, you know, we're losing that amount of money We have.

306
00:17:27,310 --> 00:17:27,311
I'm sorry.

307
00:17:27,311 --> 00:17:30,490
We have, it's now a le, it's now basically avoidance is.

308
00:17:30,885 --> 00:17:32,205
There are a whole set of rules.

309
00:17:32,205 --> 00:17:33,764
They are incredibly complicated.

310
00:17:33,770 --> 00:17:35,534
There are a million pages of tax law.

311
00:17:35,534 --> 00:17:39,135
We have probably the most complicated and some of the most aggressive tax law in the world.

312
00:17:39,135 --> 00:17:40,574
It's incredibly well thought out.

313
00:17:40,604 --> 00:17:41,794
It's okay, Avvo.

314
00:17:41,985 --> 00:17:44,534
We can't come in a world where we say avoidance is illegal.

315
00:17:44,540 --> 00:17:45,645
Evasion is illegal.

316
00:17:45,645 --> 00:17:53,054
Well, I mean, we know that, but we can rearrange the tax system such that avoidance doesn't happen as much or doesn't happen in such an inefficient way.

317
00:17:53,324 --> 00:17:58,155
Yeah, I mean, I, I struggle if you are a full UK person, there's so few ways you can hide.

318
00:17:58,220 --> 00:18:00,170
I'm mean a really few ways dividend.

319
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:07,970
So you could pay 38.1% rather than 45% if you arrange your stuff through a company, but has all these other impacts that mean tax goes up.

320
00:18:07,970 --> 00:18:15,800
So I, you know, I just, the reason I stand up for this argument is because I think there is a narrative around avoidance that there, these are people, all bad people.

321
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,669
Avoidance is literally, Getting tax advice, which you should get.

322
00:18:19,699 --> 00:18:24,560
And that's a very big industry, like, you know, as you, as you know, because it's, yeah, but, but we've got a million pay.

323
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:25,129
It's worth it.

324
00:18:25,159 --> 00:18:25,669
Yeah.

325
00:18:25,675 --> 00:18:27,860
But yet even how you're putting that is cynical.

326
00:18:27,860 --> 00:18:30,469
You're putting it in a way of, oh, it's wrong to get tax advice.

327
00:18:30,530 --> 00:18:35,929
Fucking, I'm not saying it's wrong to get tax advice, you're saying it's got this taste of like, oh, it's wrong.

328
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:42,770
I'm not saying I would never, I find it so boring when people speak about big political issues in terms of like individual responsibility.

329
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:42,860
Yeah.

330
00:18:42,860 --> 00:18:46,760
Because ultimately, You know, we know that people will make the system work for them.

331
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:53,270
The question is, how do we design the system so that in trying to make the system work for them, we actually make it work for everyone.

332
00:18:53,270 --> 00:18:54,469
It works for more people.

333
00:18:54,500 --> 00:18:54,770
Yeah.

334
00:18:54,830 --> 00:18:59,719
Like it's never gonna work for everyone, but we need a system that works for more of the population as a whole.

335
00:18:59,959 --> 00:19:07,189
And this may be a difference, you're right, between let's say a middle class person with, you know, a million pound home and a good job and a billionaire.

336
00:19:07,189 --> 00:19:07,250
Yeah.

337
00:19:07,250 --> 00:19:15,814
And I think we often forget, as you say, the difference between a millionaire, a billionaire, A great stat that I like to, to tell people is it would take you 12 days to count the numbers to a million.

338
00:19:15,814 --> 00:19:18,514
To count the numbers to a billion would take you 32 years.

339
00:19:18,665 --> 00:19:18,845
Wow.

340
00:19:18,850 --> 00:19:20,345
That's the difference of the scale between a million and a billion.

341
00:19:20,345 --> 00:19:20,985
That's, that's the metric.

342
00:19:21,095 --> 00:19:24,935
And um, you know, there are a lot of people with astonishing amounts of money.

343
00:19:24,935 --> 00:19:29,645
Money that should be taxed who are, you know, avoiding tax in Panama and the Cayman eyes.

344
00:19:29,785 --> 00:19:34,945
A lot of, actually, a lot of places that are British overseas territories or crown dependencies or whatever.

345
00:19:34,975 --> 00:19:35,215
Oh yeah.

346
00:19:35,215 --> 00:19:44,005
We're definitely, we definitely have a pass to play, but you've gotta understand those rules, those all, every time you see that it's because there was an ability to do it historically.

347
00:19:44,275 --> 00:19:47,605
I mean, look, you definitely, it's definitely too complicated tax.

348
00:19:47,635 --> 00:19:51,745
I mean, on enforcement, I, you know, the revenue are just like on it.

349
00:19:51,745 --> 00:19:54,085
I mean, they're writing letters to people left, right, and center.

350
00:19:54,085 --> 00:19:54,475
They use.

351
00:19:54,495 --> 00:19:58,354
Psychologist, they, I mean, it's crazy what the sum of the shit they get up isn't.

352
00:19:58,354 --> 00:19:59,024
Cause I know what you mean.

353
00:19:59,024 --> 00:20:03,104
Like in the sense that it's quite easy to go after someone who.

354
00:20:03,450 --> 00:20:15,450
I don't know as a, like got a small business and maybe is arranging their tax payers in such a way, but it like the people who, who we actually wanna go after it is, it seems like they're either less aggressive or they just don't know.

355
00:20:15,540 --> 00:20:19,140
Or maybe these guys are so lawyered up that it just becomes so difficult for, to even engage with Hm.

356
00:20:19,140 --> 00:20:23,490
R c Well, but, but, but we are, back to your point, that democracies a bit fucked right now.

357
00:20:23,490 --> 00:20:23,610
Yeah.

358
00:20:23,610 --> 00:20:25,980
And people like China are laughing at us and rightly.

359
00:20:26,025 --> 00:20:31,665
So because they've got a hundred, 200 year plan and they're off on it, and I mean at least the Japanese have a longer term plan.

360
00:20:31,665 --> 00:20:38,685
I think they seem to run their society in a much sort of longer term and, but you know, ultimately we're sitting here with our like three year plan wondering why we're gonna lease again.

361
00:20:38,685 --> 00:20:39,975
Don't even have a three year plan.

362
00:20:39,980 --> 00:20:43,275
Yeah, I mean, well we've got a year plan at the moment, at the current electoral cycle.

363
00:20:43,275 --> 00:20:44,835
Then we've got a two year plan.

364
00:20:44,835 --> 00:20:45,925
But was yours was your.

365
00:20:46,205 --> 00:20:50,435
Proposal, go back to the 16th century in the divine right of kings and well democracy.

366
00:20:50,495 --> 00:20:56,405
You, you, you know, it's back to the thing of the benevolent dictator might be, you know, it's like I was reading about Shaman Mount.

367
00:20:56,405 --> 00:20:59,014
I've never really read it because, but I got, oh my God.

368
00:20:59,020 --> 00:21:00,514
No, no, I'm not advocating him.

369
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,675
I mean a guy killed millions and millions of people.

370
00:21:02,679 --> 00:21:13,085
But it's fascinating reading the legacy I was, I was reading Stalin the other day and you know, that guy had some resource things to my point cuz he's come from a rest history podcast cause they started talking about culture evidence.

371
00:21:13,324 --> 00:21:14,254
My favorite podcast.

372
00:21:14,285 --> 00:21:17,645
Anyway, so I read the Wikipedia and I'm like, I can't get my head around this guy.

373
00:21:17,645 --> 00:21:20,495
And you go to the legacy of Chairman Matt, and it's incredibly divided.

374
00:21:20,495 --> 00:21:21,935
But he was amazing for women.

375
00:21:22,055 --> 00:21:25,745
He, he raised their life, he did all these incredible things for their society, but he did all four.

376
00:21:25,745 --> 00:21:28,025
But have you heard their podcast on the cultural revolution?

377
00:21:28,085 --> 00:21:28,685
Oh my fucking fucking God.

378
00:21:28,685 --> 00:21:29,665
That's what I listened to.

379
00:21:30,245 --> 00:21:31,324
That's scary.

380
00:21:31,564 --> 00:21:32,435
But no, I mean, you're right.

381
00:21:32,435 --> 00:21:43,504
Like when you have this form of basically centralized planning that they had in the U S S R in China to an extent and other places, there were a lot of achievements around, you know, housing and women's rights, all sort of stuff.

382
00:21:43,504 --> 00:21:45,784
I say currently China is advancing in an oppressive way.

383
00:21:45,784 --> 00:21:46,024
Yeah, exactly.

384
00:21:46,245 --> 00:21:48,725
But there were also big drawbacks that stuff.

385
00:21:48,725 --> 00:21:50,544
A lot of people had to die to make it work.

386
00:21:50,614 --> 00:22:01,050
And also it's kind of unfeasible really, I think to suggest moving back to that level of centralization and bureaucratization and the kind of, Complex, modern society that we live in today.

387
00:22:01,350 --> 00:22:05,460
Like I really think that the, the ideas that we have around democracy.

388
00:22:05,895 --> 00:22:07,575
Which is that it's slow.

389
00:22:07,575 --> 00:22:08,415
Nothing gets done.

390
00:22:08,415 --> 00:22:10,785
It gets taken over by vested interests.

391
00:22:11,115 --> 00:22:17,085
I think they're, they're wrong and they're outdated because there are ways that you can organize a society to make it more democratic.

392
00:22:17,085 --> 00:22:19,875
That don't all just hinge on electoral politics.

393
00:22:19,875 --> 00:22:24,379
It's things like, you know, Worker engagement in the organizations in which they work for.

394
00:22:24,379 --> 00:22:26,780
It's things like, you know, community engagement.

395
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,710
Um, there's a lot of really interesting stuff going on at the moment at like just local council model that a bit more.

396
00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:32,510
What do you, what do you think would shape would help?

397
00:22:32,510 --> 00:22:33,500
So we're talking about, yeah.

398
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:37,129
One thing that I really think everyone should look into at the moment is something called the Preston model.

399
00:22:37,129 --> 00:22:39,379
And this is based on the idea of community wealth building.

400
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:45,710
And this would've actually been a really interesting way to respond to some of these questions around, you know, places that have been in a vertical months left behind.

401
00:22:46,010 --> 00:22:50,330
The idea is that there are anchor institutions in an area like the council, the NHS.

402
00:22:50,545 --> 00:22:57,625
Uh, universities that they can't move, they have a certain procurement budget, um, and the way that they spend that budget can either make or break that community.

403
00:22:57,625 --> 00:23:01,945
They can outsource everything to capita and all the money gets sucked out and goes to shareholders in London.

404
00:23:02,185 --> 00:23:06,475
Or they can say, we are going to procure these services from a cooperative.

405
00:23:06,825 --> 00:23:15,105
Or from a local business and, you know, use that collective power and that spatial planning, basically these organizations have to try and boost the community.

406
00:23:15,255 --> 00:23:16,275
They did this in Preston.

407
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:17,625
It was an amazing success.

408
00:23:17,805 --> 00:23:27,525
The labor council there, who's run by Matthew Brown, he's written a book about it, has just, you know, come on heaps and bounds from this very deprived area to actually really, um, you know, maintaining a lot of value in the community.

409
00:23:27,675 --> 00:23:32,865
They're thinking about doing things like again, setting up their own cooperative, setting up local, local development banks, that sort of thing.

410
00:23:33,285 --> 00:23:35,895
And they're engaging people in that process.

411
00:23:35,915 --> 00:23:36,965
The whole way through.

412
00:23:36,965 --> 00:23:40,115
And as a result, they've done really well in elections.

413
00:23:40,115 --> 00:23:41,675
They've got really high approval ratings.

414
00:23:41,675 --> 00:23:44,405
Like this is something, you know, arguably really simple.

415
00:23:44,524 --> 00:23:52,295
It sounds good, and I mean, I wonder who, the leaders were impressed and they clearly weren't the SL council, but you know, you know, that's the thing local makes sense.

416
00:23:52,300 --> 00:23:55,325
Again, as long as you've got good people running the business.

417
00:23:57,420 --> 00:24:07,560
And now a quick word from our sponsor, business Without Bullshit is brought to you by URI Clark, straight Talking financial and legal advice since 1935.

418
00:24:08,010 --> 00:24:10,440
You can find us@oriclark.com.

419
00:24:13,470 --> 00:24:18,000
What do you think is bullshit in business or in your industry and why?

420
00:24:18,449 --> 00:24:25,080
So I think in general, my answer to this question, and this might be controversial, there's this whole idea of kind of like stakeholder capitalism, right?

421
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,199
Which is that shareholder capitalism is very short term, which is true.

422
00:24:28,199 --> 00:24:40,169
You know, we had the, the shareholder value revolution and it overcomes about maximizing, um, maximizing shareholder value over the very short term and profits distributed, or a, a good measure of the value that's created by a company.

423
00:24:40,379 --> 00:24:45,120
So we need to move to this idea of stakeholder capitalism, which is basically where the shareholders of a business.

424
00:24:45,425 --> 00:24:49,535
Get to acts in the interests of all of the stakeholders that are affected by that business.

425
00:24:49,535 --> 00:24:52,445
And the idea is that this is supposed to be kind of voluntary.

426
00:24:52,445 --> 00:25:00,305
So the shareholder's supposed to say, well, we have a broad interest in society working, so we are going to sacrifice some of our short term profits in order to.

427
00:25:00,565 --> 00:25:02,575
Make you know the world better over the long term.

428
00:25:02,575 --> 00:25:03,145
Enough enough.

429
00:25:03,205 --> 00:25:03,625
Exactly.

430
00:25:03,625 --> 00:25:16,975
And the most, you know, the maddest version of this is, uh, I've heard is that the big asset management companies, so like BlackRock for example, which own stakes in all of the, the biggest companies will start suddenly realizing that because they own stakes in all of the economy.

431
00:25:17,294 --> 00:25:22,604
That it's in their interests, that climate change doesn't get too bad and that economic growth is good, and that there isn't too much inequality.

432
00:25:22,754 --> 00:25:28,784
So they're gonna start pressuring, you know, these companies to, you know, be better on the climate or pay their employees more, or whatever.

433
00:25:28,905 --> 00:25:32,205
This is something that people have actively theorized and suggested will happen.

434
00:25:32,324 --> 00:25:34,004
And of course, that's not what's happened.

435
00:25:34,004 --> 00:25:38,175
You know, Larry Thinkink is the head of BlackRock says, oh, we're gonna do lots of stuff on climate breakdown.

436
00:25:38,175 --> 00:25:41,354
But then whenever a vote comes up on these issues, if it.

437
00:25:41,610 --> 00:25:43,649
Impacts short term profitability.

438
00:25:43,649 --> 00:25:44,399
They're not gonna do that.

439
00:25:44,399 --> 00:25:48,989
And you know, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their people who are invested in that company.

440
00:25:48,989 --> 00:25:51,780
So this is not gonna work on that basis.

441
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:52,290
It's not gonna work.

442
00:25:52,290 --> 00:25:53,520
Cause the incentives don't align.

443
00:25:53,850 --> 00:25:56,639
I like the idea of companies being more responsible.

444
00:25:56,729 --> 00:26:02,399
I just don't think it's gonna happen from this voluntary shift that suddenly everyone realizes, oh, actually we don't care about profits that much.

445
00:26:02,580 --> 00:26:04,620
So I think that's a bit of bullshit that people like to pedal.

446
00:26:04,645 --> 00:26:06,325
It's a really curious one.

447
00:26:06,325 --> 00:26:09,175
I think you have to sort of separate big, big business.

448
00:26:09,175 --> 00:26:14,065
I mean, we, we've joked before, but you know, there's always this line about, oh, well, you know, everyone does it for the shareholders.

449
00:26:14,065 --> 00:26:17,335
Most companies I know couldn't give two fucks about their shareholders.

450
00:26:17,395 --> 00:26:17,485
Yes.

451
00:26:17,545 --> 00:26:19,195
They don't even, you know, they're like, yeah, what?

452
00:26:19,375 --> 00:26:20,004
Whatever.

453
00:26:20,055 --> 00:26:23,355
You know, they are shareholders so they, you know, do they have a duty to make profits?

454
00:26:23,355 --> 00:26:24,855
Like, look, try to make money here.

455
00:26:24,915 --> 00:26:26,235
I want my salary to continue.

456
00:26:26,235 --> 00:26:29,775
You know, I'm having to get a dividend one day, but the stakeholder thing is coming.

457
00:26:29,780 --> 00:26:38,055
But it's this hugely complicated mechanism that needs accountants and auditors and everyone, and it's, and regulation, I would argue it's, it's coming.

458
00:26:38,055 --> 00:26:38,205
Yeah.

459
00:26:38,385 --> 00:26:40,125
All new audit regulations coming, but.

460
00:26:40,545 --> 00:26:41,595
Yeah, it would take a while.

461
00:26:41,595 --> 00:26:49,514
I do think people are thinking more like stakeholders and again, you, you think of every company I deal with in London, it's like, you know, it's rare that I meet, I meet one now.

462
00:26:49,514 --> 00:26:51,645
Who doesn't give a crap if they can give a crap.

463
00:26:51,645 --> 00:26:53,014
Yeah, but I mean this is the thing isn't it?

464
00:26:53,014 --> 00:26:56,535
If they're struggling, which a lot of them are, and giving a crap's difficult, it's hard.

465
00:26:56,535 --> 00:26:58,605
Just as it much as for an individual as a business.

466
00:26:58,610 --> 00:27:03,105
I think this is really interesting actually, cuz kind of this holiday idea of stakeholder capitalism tends to come alongside.

467
00:27:03,350 --> 00:27:04,969
Greater market concentration.

468
00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:11,719
If you are a big market dominating monopoly or oligopoly, you can afford to be like, oh, well, you know, we'll give a bit here.

469
00:27:11,725 --> 00:27:13,399
We'll, you know, do something nice there.

470
00:27:13,399 --> 00:27:15,980
We'll invest in this particular scheme or whatever.

471
00:27:16,129 --> 00:27:23,149
Whereas if you're in a very competitive industry where you know, costs are are tight, margins are tight, then um, it's gonna be much more difficult for you.

472
00:27:23,149 --> 00:27:29,480
So actually it's not necessarily a good thing that we have this, these really now quite high in some sectors, levels of market concentration that.

473
00:27:29,670 --> 00:27:38,700
Give some firms the flexibility to be able to say, I'm gonna do X or Y Z, it's, and part of our problem is what you really want them to do with these big, you know,

474
00:27:38,700 --> 00:27:45,240
like the companies you don't serve are the money, like all the energy companies going, well, this is rather, you know, and, and, and so we get annoyed about that.

475
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:46,410
So you're like, well taxable.

476
00:27:46,415 --> 00:27:50,700
Well, the problem is, is people don't really respect the taxation is being used that well.

477
00:27:50,700 --> 00:27:53,970
You know, so companies would say, well, will you, we'll invest the money, we'll do better.

478
00:27:53,970 --> 00:27:56,460
But they haven't, would they just roll out the shelves?

479
00:27:56,490 --> 00:27:58,140
Yeah, exactly What you'd love to say to them.

480
00:27:58,380 --> 00:28:09,060
Give them the ethical problem of saying, we are gonna put a 20% charitable tax on you and it's gonna go to these charities, becomes much harder for them to sit as shareholders and say, well, I just think it's outrageous, you know?

481
00:28:09,060 --> 00:28:10,950
But then you get into what are the charities doing?

482
00:28:10,955 --> 00:28:12,800
And I, well, I mean, just give it to the nhs.

483
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:13,120
Well, I like you.

484
00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:20,730
Well, I like your, well, maybe, but I like your community idea that maybe a company could have a responsibility to its community and say, okay, you are super rich.

485
00:28:20,730 --> 00:28:22,020
You've got offices in these.

486
00:28:22,035 --> 00:28:29,355
Three counties each, you've gonna have to now make a donation to that county of 20% of your profits and they can't get upset about it.

487
00:28:29,355 --> 00:28:31,815
And then all these great things happen in their community.

488
00:28:31,815 --> 00:28:37,005
But with that mechanism, those sorts of mechanisms, they are very socialist, I guess.

489
00:28:37,010 --> 00:28:37,125
They are.

490
00:28:37,125 --> 00:28:37,815
They are, yes.

491
00:28:37,815 --> 00:28:38,975
They're very like, Coming in.

492
00:28:38,975 --> 00:28:40,745
No, but I'm, I'm into that shit.

493
00:28:40,745 --> 00:28:42,514
I think a lot of people would be into that shit.

494
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,125
It's how, it's how you do it and that it's gotta be proportional.

495
00:28:45,125 --> 00:28:45,514
Fair.

496
00:28:45,814 --> 00:28:48,364
And that's the problem because then you get down to the mathematics.

497
00:28:48,370 --> 00:28:51,395
But you, it would seem, you could just say, you know, yeah.

498
00:28:51,395 --> 00:28:55,594
If you've made mega profits and all you do is really get oil out the ground, then fuck you.

499
00:28:55,665 --> 00:28:58,054
Well, it's, you know, it's, it's a, it's a rentier industry.

500
00:28:58,054 --> 00:28:59,044
These people aren't creating value.

501
00:28:59,114 --> 00:28:59,794
Fuck not fuck you.

502
00:28:59,794 --> 00:29:00,334
Well done.

503
00:29:00,334 --> 00:29:02,375
You and we are gonna give some of it to charity.

504
00:29:02,465 --> 00:29:02,794
Okay.

505
00:29:03,034 --> 00:29:04,504
You know, that's what we're gonna do.

506
00:29:04,625 --> 00:29:05,014
You know?

507
00:29:05,014 --> 00:29:06,665
And, and don't get upset about it.

508
00:29:06,665 --> 00:29:11,485
Please, you know, Okay, so Grace, this is the five second rule.

509
00:29:11,785 --> 00:29:11,875
Okay.

510
00:29:11,875 --> 00:29:14,665
This is where we're gonna ask you, we're gonna chop it to three seconds, given we take too long.

511
00:29:14,665 --> 00:29:14,666
Okay.

512
00:29:14,666 --> 00:29:17,545
We've, this always happens to me, by the way.

513
00:29:17,545 --> 00:29:18,595
I always go on for so long.

514
00:29:18,595 --> 00:29:18,925
I'm sorry.

515
00:29:18,925 --> 00:29:19,015
Yes.

516
00:29:19,020 --> 00:29:19,465
Good though.

517
00:29:19,465 --> 00:29:22,405
We're gonna ask you a list of questions to get to know you a little better.

518
00:29:22,435 --> 00:29:22,525
Cool.

519
00:29:22,525 --> 00:29:25,105
And you've got three seconds, five seconds, okay.

520
00:29:25,555 --> 00:29:26,695
To answer each question.

521
00:29:26,815 --> 00:29:27,105
Okay.

522
00:29:27,110 --> 00:29:31,045
Dq, the music, what was your first job?

523
00:29:31,450 --> 00:29:33,160
Waitress in a pub.

524
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:34,780
I was paid four pound 25 an hour.

525
00:29:35,590 --> 00:29:35,860
Again.

526
00:29:36,220 --> 00:29:37,390
What was your worst job?

527
00:29:38,110 --> 00:29:40,630
Um, I worked at the builder bear workshop.

528
00:29:41,950 --> 00:29:42,310
Oh, wow.

529
00:29:42,310 --> 00:29:45,910
Until I had to dress up in as a bear and go outside and greet the kids.

530
00:29:46,540 --> 00:29:48,430
You need a mirror to enjoy that all day.

531
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,110
Otherwise you're in a sweaty bear.

532
00:29:50,110 --> 00:29:51,040
It was really hot.

533
00:29:51,055 --> 00:29:59,425
Yeah, my brother was the killer whale at uh, Windsor Spago, and he used to squeeze the children really tight with his flippers cuz he was so hot and angry.

534
00:29:59,425 --> 00:30:00,235
Oh my God.

535
00:30:01,525 --> 00:30:03,535
Favorite subject of school history?

536
00:30:03,775 --> 00:30:05,395
Mm, special skill.

537
00:30:05,845 --> 00:30:06,355
Oh god.

538
00:30:06,514 --> 00:30:08,075
Um, I dunno.

539
00:30:08,075 --> 00:30:10,715
Guitar singing like that, I do do that.

540
00:30:10,715 --> 00:30:11,014
Yeah.

541
00:30:11,014 --> 00:30:12,245
I suppose that's the thing.

542
00:30:12,514 --> 00:30:14,014
Well, we've be making music after this.

543
00:30:14,014 --> 00:30:14,254
Great.

544
00:30:14,254 --> 00:30:15,245
You can get your guitar out.

545
00:30:15,245 --> 00:30:16,205
Well, we've got one somewhere.

546
00:30:16,655 --> 00:30:18,305
Uh, what did you want to be when you grew up?

547
00:30:18,725 --> 00:30:21,695
Um, initially a pop star, then a politician.

548
00:30:22,655 --> 00:30:24,455
I have changed entirely.

549
00:30:24,460 --> 00:30:26,465
I am, I, I, they're basically the same thing.

550
00:30:26,635 --> 00:30:27,284
It's fantastic.

551
00:30:27,395 --> 00:30:28,004
It's fantastic.

552
00:30:28,175 --> 00:30:30,274
What did your parents want you to be when you grew up?

553
00:30:30,945 --> 00:30:31,935
Just happy.

554
00:30:31,995 --> 00:30:33,705
I think everyone says this.

555
00:30:33,705 --> 00:30:35,055
I know, but my parents really meant it.

556
00:30:35,055 --> 00:30:44,895
They were like, my mom was always like my mother, cuz she was the first family person in her family, goes to university, went to Cambridge, and her dad really wanted her to be the first female prime minister and she was like, I live with the weight of that my whole life.

557
00:30:44,925 --> 00:30:45,795
I just want you to be happy.

558
00:30:45,795 --> 00:30:47,205
I have no expectations for you.

559
00:30:47,205 --> 00:30:48,585
So do you know what I mean?

560
00:30:48,885 --> 00:30:49,725
Anyway, we'll come back to it.

561
00:30:49,725 --> 00:30:50,025
Yeah.

562
00:30:50,115 --> 00:30:52,035
What was your go-to karaoke song?

563
00:30:52,875 --> 00:30:53,205
Oh God.

564
00:30:53,595 --> 00:30:54,915
Oasis Champagne Soup?

565
00:30:54,915 --> 00:30:55,035
No.

566
00:30:55,525 --> 00:30:56,225
Oh, okay.

567
00:30:56,745 --> 00:30:57,135
Which one?

568
00:30:58,490 --> 00:31:01,220
Um, um, so they all fine.

569
00:31:01,310 --> 00:31:02,000
Yeah, exactly.

570
00:31:02,030 --> 00:31:03,260
Well beneath there something rather.

571
00:31:03,700 --> 00:31:04,190
Look at that.

572
00:31:04,190 --> 00:31:05,710
You've got the nice little singing voice.

573
00:31:05,780 --> 00:31:08,690
Fuck off, uh, office dogs.

574
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:09,200
Where is he?

575
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:10,280
Uh, who's down there?

576
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:11,420
Business or bullshit?

577
00:31:11,450 --> 00:31:16,340
I don't work in an office, but I mean, it sounds like that would be a nice thing to have in an office.

578
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:17,930
I always hated working at an office.

579
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,630
I mean, it was not really for me, I was a bit too much of a free spirit.

580
00:31:20,690 --> 00:31:24,090
But if you're gonna be in an office, Have something to lighten the mood.

581
00:31:24,090 --> 00:31:24,600
Definitely.

582
00:31:24,690 --> 00:31:27,840
Sometimes they're good, sometimes there are pain in the, I can imagine.

583
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:28,020
Yeah.

584
00:31:28,020 --> 00:31:28,290
Sorry.

585
00:31:28,290 --> 00:31:30,960
Very Is he, he's just down here being very good as usual.

586
00:31:30,965 --> 00:31:33,929
Usual as sometimes, uh, have you ever been fired?

587
00:31:34,230 --> 00:31:35,610
Surprisingly, no.

588
00:31:36,060 --> 00:31:39,720
I really feel like I've been expelled from school several times.

589
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:39,840
Really?

590
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:40,260
Youell.

591
00:31:40,260 --> 00:31:41,460
You've never been fired?

592
00:31:41,490 --> 00:31:42,270
Yeah, quite a lot.

593
00:31:42,615 --> 00:31:45,405
I identify with when you were talking about how British people are rebellious.

594
00:31:45,525 --> 00:31:48,975
I personally think that for the reason that I'm rebellious, that's why I'm left wing.

595
00:31:49,395 --> 00:31:51,195
But that's a story for another day.

596
00:31:51,225 --> 00:31:51,585
No, no.

597
00:31:51,585 --> 00:31:52,875
We need to know about expulsion.

598
00:31:52,875 --> 00:31:52,995
I don't.

599
00:31:52,995 --> 00:31:53,145
Hang on.

600
00:31:53,835 --> 00:31:54,615
Let's do the last one.

601
00:31:54,615 --> 00:31:55,245
Be suspended.

602
00:31:55,335 --> 00:31:56,355
What's your advice?

603
00:31:56,895 --> 00:31:57,255
Oh God.

604
00:31:57,375 --> 00:31:58,305
Probably surfing.

605
00:31:59,095 --> 00:31:59,515
So cool.

606
00:32:00,215 --> 00:32:00,875
That's very cool.

607
00:32:00,875 --> 00:32:01,035
Wow.

608
00:32:01,055 --> 00:32:02,105
You go down to Cornwall then?

609
00:32:02,225 --> 00:32:02,495
Total corn.

610
00:32:02,495 --> 00:32:02,735
Yeah.

611
00:32:02,795 --> 00:32:13,235
Well I've been doing this now for a long time on my, on my holidays and it's expensive and time consuming and just a whole life consuming, so, oh, here, we have good stuff in the UK though, actually.

612
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:13,835
Yeah, no, it's, it's cold.

613
00:32:14,135 --> 00:32:14,795
We have good, good stuff.

614
00:32:14,795 --> 00:32:15,155
Yeah, yeah.

615
00:32:15,155 --> 00:32:15,935
No, definitely.

616
00:32:15,995 --> 00:32:17,495
Um, it just depends when it comes in.

617
00:32:22,055 --> 00:32:22,275
Um.

618
00:32:22,645 --> 00:32:23,485
The, the happy one.

619
00:32:23,485 --> 00:32:27,325
I mean, everyone says it, but I just have to bring up my usual, which is it thankss to my dad.

620
00:32:27,325 --> 00:32:31,765
His point when he is that happiness is a transient emotion, you know?

621
00:32:31,770 --> 00:32:32,425
I agree.

622
00:32:32,605 --> 00:32:34,495
And so his was like, don't you wanna progress?

623
00:32:34,500 --> 00:32:36,115
He says, at times you're gonna feel sad.

624
00:32:36,115 --> 00:32:37,225
At times, you're gonna feel happy.

625
00:32:37,230 --> 00:32:39,685
Sometimes you're frustrated, sexy, whatever the fuck.

626
00:32:39,955 --> 00:32:41,035
But you wanna progress.

627
00:32:41,035 --> 00:32:45,415
So surely you know, everyone, everyone, almost everyone said my prayers wanted to be that happy.

628
00:32:45,415 --> 00:32:48,895
And I wonder if that's really true or whether they just wanted you.

629
00:32:49,095 --> 00:32:51,315
To build a good life, you know?

630
00:32:51,315 --> 00:32:55,095
Or maybe it's, I want you to be content cuz you contents are better words.

631
00:32:55,125 --> 00:32:55,575
Better words.

632
00:32:55,575 --> 00:33:08,805
I think it might be a generational thing to be honest, because, uh, like my parents' generation, which would've been like on the cusp of Gen X and what would've been the cusp of boomers and Gen X would've been raised by like what, 1965 something?

633
00:33:08,835 --> 00:33:09,045
Yeah.

634
00:33:09,045 --> 00:33:09,645
59.

635
00:33:09,645 --> 00:33:10,395
They were both born in.

636
00:33:10,415 --> 00:33:10,915
Oh yeah.

637
00:33:11,250 --> 00:33:15,510
So I think they absorbed all this stuff from their parents, which were like, you have to be successful.

638
00:33:15,510 --> 00:33:23,190
You have to, you know, as I said, my granddad was this communist who was still like, you as my daughter, you got to Cambridge, still gonna be the first, you know, female prime minister.

639
00:33:23,610 --> 00:33:30,240
And it made them really unhappy because they were constantly pushing, you know, through the eighties through this time where it was all about individualism and entrepreneurship to be successful.

640
00:33:30,300 --> 00:33:31,560
Eighties were, hell yeah.

641
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,310
And then they realized, oh actually, you know, I have all this stuff and I'm not happy.

642
00:33:35,310 --> 00:33:36,450
And I think they then, yeah.

643
00:33:36,764 --> 00:33:42,524
Said to us, don't just make your whole life about, you know, achieving and success and all that sort of stuff.

644
00:33:42,524 --> 00:33:44,475
Like think about what you actually want to do.

645
00:33:44,625 --> 00:33:51,014
So when I said, right, I'm taking this bit a bit of a break from my career to go traveling for eight months at the age of 29, my mom was like, great.

646
00:33:51,135 --> 00:33:52,125
I'm so supportive.

647
00:33:52,125 --> 00:33:55,365
I've come back and I'm like, I'm gonna have to stay with you for a while because I've spent all of my money.

648
00:33:55,365 --> 00:33:56,595
She's like, I don't care.

649
00:33:56,745 --> 00:33:57,885
I'm so proud of you.

650
00:33:58,004 --> 00:33:59,264
It's great that you've done that.

651
00:33:59,264 --> 00:34:00,315
You know, you don't wanna be.

652
00:34:00,535 --> 00:34:03,265
Stuck in 10 years time in a job that you don't like, whatever.

653
00:34:03,415 --> 00:34:04,975
I think that's kind of what it means really.

654
00:34:04,975 --> 00:34:08,605
It's about chasing what makes you, what makes you content nice rather than just success.

655
00:34:08,605 --> 00:34:15,385
My dad said that I tried to move home for three months when I was doing my house up, and he, and he was like, I don't, I don't really want you here.

656
00:34:15,385 --> 00:34:16,315
I mean, I love, you're terrible.

657
00:34:16,435 --> 00:34:17,335
I was so shocked.

658
00:34:17,335 --> 00:34:18,115
So I was like, what?

659
00:34:18,115 --> 00:34:18,534
All right.

660
00:34:18,574 --> 00:34:23,254
Yeah, but you know, uh, I might end up saying that to my son one day and then expulsion.

661
00:34:23,314 --> 00:34:24,424
What did you get expelled from?

662
00:34:24,514 --> 00:34:27,274
I was expelled, um, twice it sounded right.

663
00:34:27,814 --> 00:34:28,264
Oh, no, sorry.

664
00:34:28,264 --> 00:34:29,855
I was asked to leave one school.

665
00:34:29,855 --> 00:34:31,864
This was an all girls school I went to in year seven and eight.

666
00:34:31,895 --> 00:34:34,819
And that was because I had seven and eight is like, 12, 12.

667
00:34:34,819 --> 00:34:35,359
12, 13.

668
00:34:35,359 --> 00:34:35,540
Yeah.

669
00:34:35,544 --> 00:34:35,600
Yeah.

670
00:34:35,605 --> 00:34:37,580
I'd climbed on the roof and started smoking.

671
00:34:38,089 --> 00:34:39,159
Um, so that was cigarettes.

672
00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:40,219
That was what I got suspended for.

673
00:34:40,219 --> 00:34:41,509
Yeah, just cigarettes at that time.

674
00:34:41,509 --> 00:34:42,739
And then they were like, you're disruptive.

675
00:34:42,980 --> 00:34:47,389
So I later found out I have a D H D, so I was very disruptive all the time, but I was quite smart.

676
00:34:47,389 --> 00:34:49,699
So I'd finished all my work and then distract everyone else.

677
00:34:49,909 --> 00:34:51,799
Eventually they were like, you have to leave because you're a nightmare.

678
00:34:52,100 --> 00:34:53,959
Went to then boarding school for three years.

679
00:34:53,959 --> 00:34:54,859
I got suspended.

680
00:34:55,095 --> 00:34:56,415
Three times.

681
00:34:56,595 --> 00:35:01,845
So I actually only got expelled twice if you count that suspended three times at that school for various different infractions.

682
00:35:01,995 --> 00:35:04,575
Then they said, you've gotta leave, but you can sit your GCSEs.

683
00:35:04,755 --> 00:35:11,445
And I was like, right, well this is a great excuse to have a, a big blowout party brought in loads of booze, like messed everything up.

684
00:35:11,450 --> 00:35:13,665
And then they were like, right, okay, you're out properly now.

685
00:35:13,815 --> 00:35:17,085
Did still get to sit my GCSEs, I just wasn't allowed back on the school premises.

686
00:35:17,415 --> 00:35:20,225
And then I went to sixth form college for two years and I was only suspended once.

687
00:35:20,910 --> 00:35:23,850
So, uh, you've got, uh, 30 seconds to pitch anything you'd like.

688
00:35:24,090 --> 00:35:26,250
Um, follow me on Twitter at Grace Blakely.

689
00:35:26,250 --> 00:35:29,250
Blakely has two e follow me on Instagram, same thing.

690
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,779
And yeah, look out for news about my book Vulture Capitalism, which is coming out next year.

691
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:35,100
So there you have it.

692
00:35:35,100 --> 00:35:37,950
That was this week's episode of Business Without Bullshit.

693
00:35:38,009 --> 00:35:38,910
Thank you everyone.

694
00:35:38,910 --> 00:35:39,779
Thank you Dee.

695
00:35:40,049 --> 00:35:43,680
Thank you Romeo ppa, God wonderful guest, grace.

696
00:35:43,740 --> 00:35:46,410
And we'll be back with Bwb Extra on Thursday.

697
00:35:46,415 --> 00:35:47,310
Until then, iso.