Welcome to the Dudley Unplugged podcast, a show that gets to

the heart of plumbing. Okay,

well welcome back to another episode of Dudley Unplugged. Today

we're going to be talking about the benefits of buying British and supporting British

manufacturing. I'm your host, Mark Morris, and we are joined

today by Josh Bennett, a product manager from Thomas Dudley,

and John Pearce from Made in Britain. Thank you for having me. Well, welcome back. So,

Certainly, yeah. We are a unique trade association of now

2033 British manufacturers, all on the same database, all in the

same place, all in the same community, if you like. And

what unites them is that they all use the famous Made in Britain mark,

which is there on my lapel. So that's a very heavily

protected trademark and they can use that

on their products to identify their products, they use it to identify their business and

the message really of the mark is that British manufacturing is alive and well, it's

growing, it's thriving, it's extremely diverse and

we have all the information that people will need on the website in order to take

decisions about what to buy in this country or what to buy that's made in this country. things

Yeah I mean there's obviously a perception or has been a

perception within the general public that and I think you hear people knocking

the country a lot of time when they say this is that we don't make anything anymore everything's

bought in but a dated message in my view yeah a dated message yeah

I think everyone knows we've got to make more things here. We've got to make things more

local. We have to make them in smaller quantities. I think the message is getting through

to people. I think the recent crisis and

multiple crisis we've been through have all highlighted the fact that we

need things here urgently. Some things are needed urgently. And

I think Made in Britain is part of that collective voice in telling

I think over the years, I think everyone was aiming towards globalisation. You

know, your supply chain is fine. You can get it from everywhere. It

will never end. There'll never be any problems. And I think over the last few years,

especially, that message has really been sort of thrown out

because with what's going on in Ukraine, what's going on in the

Middle East, what's going on around the Horn of Africa, there's

a lot of problems that have got in the way of that message of globalization. And

maybe people will start to think now, actually, it's probably a good idea

that we actually look at some of our manufacturing and look, that's where we should really

Yeah, I mean, we've had the door open for us on several occasions now

where their previous suppliers now having major delays

in shipping for obvious reasons in what's happening in the Mediterranean. And

that has given us an opportunity where we wouldn't have normally had

one. And that's something that we have to reinforce because

nearshoring is absolutely coming back now. We see that in spades

It is. Across every sector. I mean, Made in Britain is extremely diverse.

We've got 17 different product sectors. And those are

all broken down into all sorts of different product categories within those sectors. And

we're seeing this pattern of people wanting to know, you know, what can

I get here? What could be made here instead of make it in the

Far East? Because you're talking six to eight weeks to get it. And

heaven only knows where it's being made and who's making it. Yeah. If

And that's it as well. You might be able to buy a product that's £2 cheaper,

but you don't know who's making it. You know, there's lots of child labour that

goes on around the world. Buying British, you're

guaranteed because of the regulations that we have here that

control how products are manufactured and the quality levels. And

Yeah, you're de-risking an important part of due diligence

these days. I mean, we do need to know who's making what and

where it's being made, what materials are being used to make it, where those

materials come from. And of course, that due diligence

is so much harder, in some cases impossible, if you're making the

product in a country that's thousands of miles away. Whereas

if you, you know, we can all phone up Thomas Dudley and

ask about these products, ask who's making them, where the materials come from,

who's responsible for it all. That's a much easier check when

the company that's making is in this country or near to

I mean, Josh, you're a product manager for Thomas Dudley. Do you want to give a quick little

overview of the diverse range of products that are actually made

Absolutely. I mean, Thomas Dudley as a group is about 80 million

pounds in turnover. Most of the product is manufactured in the UK

as well. It started in the foundry, and you'll see grids

and castings in the road that say Thomas Dudley Limited on them. That's

been around 100 years, so it's got 100 years of castings out there. It's

probably one of the only foundries left, I would have thought. I think particularly if it's class absolutely

is and a lot of that's due to investment in automation as

well as mass manufacturing has had a major benefit to us.

But we also supply some of the big stove manufacturers because we can achieve a surface

finish that just can't be achieved by others. So high quality castings

is another area for ourselves as well as capsizing the

roads. So we make our own version of a road stud. But

then outside of that we have McDonald Die Casting who do Zinc Die Casting

and they'll make things like Fuller's Beer Tags, so the tags you

see on beer pumps, as well as the specialist Monopoly pieces

for the Monopoly game. And then we have Waterfitts who

make subterranean castings for the water

companies in the UK. but myself is Thomas Dudley Plumbing

and we manufacture around six and a half thousand products, most

of them in the UK, can't declare all of them in the UK let's be honest. It's

a staggering amount of products. Oh yes you're talking, you are talking literally thousands and

that ranges from things to such as cisterns, flush

valves, siphons as you see here, inlet valves, as well

I mean we'll talk about the products in a second but John I just wanted to

talk about how Buying from a British company

can help the UK economy on a micro and

a macro level. How it can help the local areas for companies like Thomas Dudley

who employ anywhere up to 500 people in the local area. And

how that can, by buying one of Dudley's products

versus one that say comes from the Far East, how

that actually benefits more here and how that actually works

because I think a lot of people don't appreciate, I might be saving a bit of money, but what's the

Yeah I think it's about putting proximity over price to be honest with

you and I mean I certainly wouldn't say that all of our members are competing

on price negatively. We have plenty of members that make highly

affordable things, there are companies making,

for example, millions of plastic boxes, shipping them

all around the world. They're made in Preston, just outside Preston. And

we have companies that are making affordable goods, household goods

that people can, you know, can see in their shops, in the DIY

shops and department stores. And I think it's another

sort of dated mythology, really, that if it's made in this country,

it's always going to be more expensive. What we do know for sure,

and that's part of Made in Britain's work, is to provide people with the evidence as

to what else we know about those products to make them a better choice.

So we know that the environmental footprint of a product that's made in this country is

a lot lower, typically half the environmental footprint of

a product that's comparable with something that's made in the Far East. You're looking

at the negative environmental impacts of

being much, much lower because of the

And I think that's an important message you know, I wrote

a piece for our newsletter said forget carbon offsetting by

British because you can work all the calculations you

want and you can plant say I plant 20 trees on the basis this once

you spent the carbon you spent the carbon it's done. So yes, you can

plant trees, but we should be doing that as well as what they're doing. It shouldn't be instead

of. And I think that's an important message that, you

know, as people are more aware of the sort of damage to

the environment that, you know, pollution can make, and even shipping something

from the Far East to here, Whereas you can get it from

Dudley, which is down the road, or Preston, wherever it

might be, whatever the product might be, you can actually get them relatively local. So I

think that's an important message, as well as the impact

on the economy, the impact on the environment as well, which people might not

be aware of, and how companies like Thomas Dudley

can react quickly in an environment that's changing. So water savings,

when I was growing up, wasn't really that important. No one really cared so much

They do now. It's changed an awful lot. Yeah,

I think people's awareness of water and energy and

all of the fundamentals of life, I think their awareness is changing every day.

Every time we see, you know, excessive amounts of water in one place and

a lack of water in another. I mean, it's reminding us every day of the importance of

Yeah and you know it's that I mean I remember growing up where we didn't have

double glazing and we didn't have central heating we had all the things that you had to take for

granted now which all helped to keep a house insulated and so

reduces your energy and I think Thomas when it looks at how

it manufactures Josh I mean you can probably tell this far better than me

being from the product side of it I think it keeps that as part of

Yes, very much so. I mean, we're owned privately

and Martin's mission, Martin Dudley's mission is very much to

employ local people and it's all about this, I'll use

the word circular economy, the benefits of buying

British aren't just from the consumer's point of view, it

is from the economy's point of view as well. The trickle-down

effect that is such high value. I mean, personally, trying

to actually hunt for the product that's actually made in Britain can be a little bit of a challenge.

For myself, I live and breathe it where I can. The shoes I'm wearing today

are from Lancashire. the belt is from made in Ludlow and

obviously Northampton's great for shoes as well but actually even even my

I mean watches there's a couple of good really good English watch

brands out there now who that never would have been thought of that something that

Yes that's what they are but this one is it's European it's German but

trying to actually get a British watchmaker again is really quite challenging actually

and it's not because they don't exist it's just trying to find them and that's obviously where the

Yeah we want to put them all in the same place so there is one database madeinbritain.org and

forward slash members and you can see all the members what the where the members are

you can you can look at the map of where they are relative to each other but

we've also put their product database in there as well. So if you search within

a product database, you'll find the company that's making the product. And

we also give them a news platform, so all of our members can publish

as much news as they like about themselves. within the regulation that

they've got to be talking about the success and growth of British manufacturing within

the context of the mark, which identifies the product. You send out emails quite

regularly, I see. Yeah, we do. Yeah. We send out a newsletter to all the members. We

have a magazine, a monthly magazine, digital magazine that goes out to

the general public and to business stakeholders, because this is now

a network that's sort of almost relying on each other for supply chain. It's

a secondary benefit of using the license is that you can

identify companies that you might need to buy a part for

this that you can't get made or you don't want to get made

in the Far East or somewhere else. You can find

a company that might be able to make a special part for you and that's another benefit

of the community coming together is that they know how

Yeah, that's something I should mention. Just in this product alone, yes, most

of the parts are made by ourselves, but a lot of the supply chain is in

the UK. For example, the spring inside here, that

spring is manufactured in Redwich. The C-link, the

metal C-link you can physically see, that's manufactured in Birmingham. And

then the diaphragm underneath, the plastic film underneath, that's

manufactured in Birmingham as well. So just to

give you an idea, that whole supply chain indirect benefit just from

That's social and economic value in a

It is, yeah, and I think that is right there in your head. I think it's a

really good point that people should really appreciate that when

they're buying something that's got the Made in Britain mark on it, just this product It's

potentially 2,000 jobs you're securing. And you might be

able to find a similar-ish type product that might be a little bit cheaper. But

people should think about what's the impact of buying that. This

one is putting 2,000 UK jobs just by making one purchase.

I mean, that's something that they can do. We all

sit there and think, what can we do to help this? What can we do to help that? By

British, it helps. It's going to help the economy and help us in

a wider environment, which I think is really useful. I

mean, obviously, we've talked about these products on there. So Josh, okay,

So, ultimately, it's a toilet flush device. This one is a siphon.

So in order to start a flush, you have to lift the lever up, you press the

lever on your toilet, and that starts a flush. So

that's what a siphon is. You might have a push-button valve, which is button-operated.

That'll be a valve. that moves up and down. The

product itself was an enhancement on a previous version

that we're well known for, the Turbo 88. And we wanted to basically make

a more compact, easier to operate siphon. So from

the compact point of view is for the installer's benefit, it fits more places.

Just by being smaller, they don't have to worry about getting different shaped siphons.

The lighter to touch flush, that's obviously something really good for kids

and for the elderly. The pink one is the same

variant as the blue Turbo Edge, but we manufactured that

in support of Cancer Research UK, of which I think

we donated around two and a half thousand pounds worth of the

sales of that product on a limited run basis. And just by

doing the pink version itself, it's quite an interesting point to

make that It's obviously low volume production and

we could turn it around really quickly after agreement with Cancer Research UK.

I'm not sure what could be done if it was made in further

It would certainly take you longer to work it all out. You're always

talking about six or eight week lead times from most other Far

I mean it's interesting that I think over the years there was a stampede

towards globalisation. It was like the party was never going to end. It

was all, you know, you'd be able to get stuff from everywhere, you know, you get your oil

from Russia, you can get this from the Far East and as we've

discovered, It's not quite as simple as

that. The last few years has been a bit of a rocky road and it's still happening

right now with new things happening in the Middle East and the

Horn of Africa as well because people don't appreciate the ships are going to sail

around the whole of Africa. That's not only going to delay things, it's going

to put a price premium on it. There is inflation on each

one of those boats coming around. There's a bit of inflation for us that's going to hit at

some point. And that's you know, that's going

to be a bit of a shock for people. So if you're reliant on

those kind of markets, you're going to have an impact on how everything

works over here, how the prices go. So buying British does help

to insulate people and the economy from that kind of sort

of hiccup that happens. And it's been quite

I think it's been transformative for the economy. And I think everyone's awareness now

that, yeah, inflation wasn't even a word three years

ago. And the pandemic and the wars that broke

out in the last two years have certainly made us all aware that

inflation affects manufacturers perhaps

more than any other sector. Because, of course, you've got inflation in

materials, you've got an increase in inflation means that

workers are going to be wanting to pay more so they can pay their bills. I

think manufacturers have a tougher time of it, actually, with

inflation. But of course, being here as a

company that's in this country, of course, you're able to find

the other companies that might be able to help you in supplying something, or

a part, or a component, or even a material, a specialist material, to

try and offset some of the changes that are happening in the

So from Thomas Dudley's point, if you're looking at how products

come about, what people probably don't realise actually is

Thomas Dudley has his own design department as well as a manufacturing. It's

not just simple as, yes, we can make it. If we build it, we will make it.

It's, I mean, just quickly talk to how does that work? We have

a design department at Thomas Dudley. So when this product was thought about,

someone had to think about how do we do this? So how does that work?

So new product development is obviously has to be a bit dynamic for different

occasions but it's a stage gate led process where I'll

do a lot of research up front see is there even a need in the markets of

the way we look at product development. Can we make it and can

we sell it. So a lot of my job is understanding can we make it can we sell

it. Usually making it in theory is the easy bit making it

sell is that that's certainly the hard bit. For

ourselves, we'll go through a stage of feasibility where we'll do a lot of iterative

development on how we might achieve things. So

for example, just to keep it nice and easy, the pin. I

was quite keen to have the previous version had a pin that you had to fully remove.

What's that pin do? It holds the siphon

in place. So in order to service the siphon, you need to dismantle it.

As if by magic it comes apart. So that pin simply

holds the spillover in place. but the previous version

meant you had to fully remove it. Now in certain systems to

try and get into a system and fully remove it. So straight away I

was on, and this came from obviously research with plumbers and

we think there's about 120,000 in the UK. Plumbers in the UK? Yeah, about

And I wanted something that I could remove from inside the system,

but not what we ended up calling a captive pin. And

just that development itself to give you that tactile feedback,

but in a low-cost part. Because we could have achieved something better, but

we needed to balance cost as well, so we used Polyprop for that particular pin.

just that little click noise was developed over the course of six

And also not be able to remove it. You cannot pull that pin out.

Yeah. I would try, but I believe you. If you're on Dragon's Den

Yeah. I mean, I was actually surprised at how robust this is for something that's

Yeah, usually you get commercial-based products people are going

to handle all the time, but that's probably going to be fitted once and hopefully no

one will ever have to touch it again. But it is made really

robustly. It's designed to last. And again, that's the benefit

of buying British because it comes to certain standards. We're very proud

of what we make at Thomas Dudley. Josh will be on the shop floor

checking and making sure the quality levels stay high. And our quality teams

are on the shop floor all day making sure it's right. Right the way up

to the design team. I think on our top floor we have

our designers and they will sit and design products and design problems

out of products and they'll look down. I mean you, Josh, you probably tell me a bit more

than this. They obviously look at potential problems and iron them out before they actually become

Very much so. So things like just the way the part ejects

off the tool. We had a problem when we first got the

tooling over from our tool manufacturer. We

had a problem where this section, what we call the upleg section, wasn't

coming out of the tool automatically. So what we ended up doing, which

pleased marketing, we actually put our Dudley logo on the

back, which helps eject the part off. And

that sort of ability to tweak the tooling within two weeks is

unrivaled really. Um, and yeah, just from a pure location

point of view, I literally am about a hundred yards from the factory.

So if I have a problem or if I want to try something new, such as the pink siphon, uh,

we can go and ask production. We know with no delays, we

don't have to set up a meeting or anything like that. We can just rock up and have a

new idea. Right down to things like the surface finish of

the product, that was a debate in itself. Should it be a shiny plastic or

should it be this matte plastic we went with in the end? That's something we

can trial, see if it looks good, and then trial again

overnight. So again, that agility in manufacturing in

I suppose if you think about the technical sort

of from the design process through to the research I

suppose at the beginning to the design process through to the manufacturing testing

and checking and production and delivery and making sure that goes out

okay. There's an awful lot of people involved in those stages. Yes.

And each one of those people spends in the local economy and that drives

growth in the local areas. And

John, I'm sure that you see that in companies all around the country where

We see it everywhere. I mean, we have an incredible diversity of membership at

Made in Britain. We're very proud of that. But regardless of what

you're making, you need people on site to make it. And those

people are designers and specialists and manufacturers

and lawyers and salespeople and marketing people.

And I think providing sort of meaningful employment

for the people that are manufacturing is really just the

start of it. If you know what you're doing at work, you're

a much better citizen, really,

I think. Especially given that most of

our companies are not just influencing their local economy,

but also their regional economy. We have manufacturers all over the

country, literally. If

they're exporting, they're not only affecting the British economy, but

I suppose looking at exports as well as UK waste, it's probably

comforting to know when you see that Made in Britain mark on there for people because

they know it's come to a certain quality. As we mentioned earlier, if you buy something from

the Far East or anywhere, you know, coming from the subcontinent, you don't really

know what the conditions are like. You don't know what type of people are

making it and what the conditions that they're working in. When

you see that Made in Britain mark on there, you know what the

conditions are like because you know there are stringent checks. So I imagine

that when anyone applies for Made in Britain membership, you give

We do, yeah. We have to record evidence. We record loads

and loads of evidence. So typically, of the 30 or 40 that apply every

Yeah, every month. Yeah, we've grown. We've always grown since it started in

2014. We've grown always roughly 20% every year. We

grew accelerated and during the pandemic we grew and I think that was post

pandemic as well. There was a growth spurt and I think that was people

realizing that we had to start making I think more things

here. There were quite a few items in the PPE category that

we needed that we didn't have accessible and now there are more companies

making PPE. But yeah, we do grow every year, we grow every month,

and we do check every single member. I mean, part of our job is to have recorded

evidence as to what these companies are doing, who's responsible. That's

really the key is we know who the responsible party is for every single

So whenever you see

the Made in Britain mark, and I see it on vans all over the place, and I

always recognize it, so it's nice to see it when I see it, that you

know they've come to a certain criteria level. They've met that criteria or

exceeded it, and you can rely that if that mark is on that

product or on that van, that company or that product meets a certain

level of requirements. I think that's very important for people

to understand that that's what that mark means. And I imagine

We are, yeah. We are sort of gauging, if you like, extreme transparency.

I mean, this is not comfortable for every single company, you know,

to reveal exactly what they're up to and who's responsible for what. But

in the manufacturing world, I have found, I joined this in 2015, and I found that manufacturers

are extremely transparent. I mean, a lot of them actually use that as an asset.

And I know that Thomas Dudley invite people into their

factory, even young people, to get them enthusiastic and knowledgeable about

what is actually made in this country still and very proudly. And I think that's

an important part of it. We're sort of measuring almost the

business community's propensity for transparency and to use

I mean, Josh, just quick on that, obviously Made in Britain have its own level

of criteria for what it means to carry that mark.

So how does Thomas Dudley as a business ensure that its

So it starts right back from design. So we have to test

all sorts of different criteria when we're developing a new product. And for

example, one of the more obvious tests on a product

such as this is testing to 200,000 cycles is a standard. Yes,

200,000 of those, which depends on how flush it is. We

say generally about 30 years you sit in a house, but that's

just the standard. We sometimes go even further. We go to

We design that so we know it lasts about 30 years

worth of average flushing max. That's

And that it can be fixed because from what I understand that was all designed so

that you can actually fix it. I mean this is another important fact

with product development is making something that actually got some longevity

to it. Yes. You know we don't want to chuck stuff away that's part of

the environmental message as well not just on the control of

water which this is also helping to reduce the

amount of water needed to flush, but also that the product itself will

be in situ and working for longer. And this again is a message we see

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one thing I was wanting to explore with you,

John, is as a European country, we seem

to, my impression is we turned our back a little bit on manufacturing, whereas

Germany seems to power ahead. And the culture in Germany, very

much is they do love to buy German where they can. I

mean, you see it just on the roads with every car is a Mercedes, a BMW or

a VW. What do you think about the cultural difference between the

British public and the German public? Do

Yeah, I think what it is is that through Made in Britain, we've learned

to shout about it a bit more. I think it was always there. There

are some niches. We do have quite a few sectors that have only got one or two members in

them. We've got a company in the Midlands that makes coffee machines, espresso

coffee machines. They are fantastic. You'll see them all over the

country, but they're also shipping them all around the world, including into Italy. So,

you know, we do have some niches and we do have

lots of specialist things. Made in Britain is essentially an SME group. But

10% of our businesses are not SMEs. I think Thomas Dudley would

be in the not really an SME, sort of far bigger

than most SMEs, certainly. But I think what it is that we've

learned to, I think we're learning, if you

like, to shout about it a bit more and to be a bit more proud of the facts

and the truth of British manufacturing via the companies that

are putting the badge on their products to identify them. But they're also

identifying themselves as members of a community that is

growing. and that is making the things that are needed, not

necessarily just making stuff because we used to make it. You

know, what do we need right now? And what do we need is efficient, water

efficient devices that last a long time that go in your loo. That's what

So I mean look at it, I mean Thomas Dudley exports around the world. We

have lots of different areas where we export

to. So from a Made in Britain point of view, do you do

anything to sort of help sort of push that message abroad that buying

Well, yeah, we do in lots of different ways, perhaps ways that

people wouldn't imagine first off when they look at the website, certainly. But

seven out of 10 of our members are exporters. That's to exporting to

at least one region or country. But we have hundreds

that are already exporting to dozens of countries. So

the exporting community of Made in Britain is extremely important to

us. What we do is really build a

growing relationship with the Department of Business and Trade and we signpost our

members to the advice that they can get, a lot of it free, but

they can also, if they want to contact overseas agencies,

representatives of the British government in other countries, if they've got a problem,

trying to get their exports into another country or another kind

of problem, be that whatever it is, they'll be able to

contact somebody at the consulate or the embassy in that country, or

speak directly to the trade advisors. I mean, there are trade advisors all up

and down the country that work directly with the Department for Trade, and there

are trade representatives of all the regions that are important, including obviously

North America, Europe, South America, Africa, Far

Eastern, and Middle Eastern. We like to signpost our

members to what they need, and also do a lot of peer-to-peer learning.

So we have a community of exporters within Made in Britain. We

manage those as a committee. We call it the International Trade Panel.

They are the ones focused on how can manufacturers help each other to export more.

and also to talk about it. So the news platform that we have for members is

a constant stream of good news about export growth. And that's part

of this is sort of reminding us that we do export. We do make products

that are relevant overseas. They are of high quality. And

of course, you know, the ambassadorial role of the product is that if

it carries the badge, people can identify it as being made here.

And that opens up a conversation. If you're a trade body, if you trade

show overseas and you're carrying the badge, And you say, well,

this product's actually made in the Midlands. You know, that's a point of interest to get

I mean, that could be quite reassuring for a company who's looking at exporting. The

fact that if they go to one that's made in Britain, they can actually get

It's an expert network. It is a lot of peer-to-peer learning and we

encourage that. I mean, it's a, you know, part of being

in the community of Made in Britain is understanding that you are surrounded by

experts. I've always found that with manufacturers, that they are experts

at making their thing, but they're also able and willing to share

I mean, talking of experts, Josh. I

mean, Thomas Dunn has been manufacturing for a long time. He's been manufacturing,

I mean, he's about over 100 years old doing different things. The

plumbing division, if you look at that as an entity on its own, who make things

like the Turbo Edge and Turbo 88, so obviously it brings a

lot of new technologies that have come along. Can you give us a

quick idea of how we've developed as a company in using

Yes, certainly probably one of the best developments is

computational fluid dynamics without CFD as we call

it. I'm glad you did the acronym second. Without CFD this

would not have been achievable. That's the truth because in

order to make it as small as we did, we had

to make the product far more efficient than the previous one was in terms

of the way it delivers water. this,

we call it the plunge internally, this shape was developed

using CFD software, ANSYS, which is used by the likes of

NASA and whatnot. So we saw modern developments because

the Siphon has been around for over 100 years. It was developed by Thomas Crapper as

And the customer of ours to be fair, that

absolutely would not have been achievable. So we do have to use

modern methods of manufacturing wherever we can. We use robotics

for some inserting of tools and such like. that we

have to keep on developing. For me, manufacturing in the UK,

it's all about competing in the niches. We are not, if you

need something that's suitable for the whole

world and can be produced in the multi-billions, absolutely

that's what the Far East is set up for. We're good for local products,

for local markets. by the same token we were talking about exports a

moment ago yeah we export into the Americas and

into the Middle East and some of that is to do with colonial

heritage as it were so things like UK standards applied

in Dubai we sell a lot of product into Dubai but

yeah it's a very diverse thing but a very niche thing

I mean, it's interesting how technology, that's

CFD, how you'll say is the CFD software that's used

in order just to flush the toilet. I mean, in essence, it's just flushing the

toilet as well. That's the net result. But people don't see the

technology and what went behind that to

make the toilet flush properly because people just think, you know, I

mean, and again, I've only been in the industry about four years. I

didn't know the difference between a handle and the push button. What

the difference was. I mean, Josh, I mean, I could

We're both in my household and I'd love to know the difference. If you're

a complete novice like me and you approach a toilet and you say, okay, one's

Yeah, the difference really with a siphon and a flush valve is

the end result is it still achieves the same flush as the toilet, but up

until 2000, the only mandated way of allowing a flush valve

to be fitted in the UK, it had to be a siphon. And a siphon is activated with

So that's the big difference. So if it's got a lever, it'll

Yeah, pretty much. There are some bottom valves out there, just to make things confusing, that are

But in general, if you walk up to a toilet and there's a handle on it, or

It's a siphon, and the reason why, in its natural state, water

is always below the spillover point. So even if that little diaphragm fails, it

can't leak. When that does fail, the only failure you'll see is you're trying

to push the lever and it doesn't quite start to flush, and as we've seen, this product's demountable

so you can service it. Whereas a flush valve is

a little bit different. It's push-button operated, usually from the

top of your cistern lid, or if it's in concealed applications, you'll have

a button on the front, and that has a seal at the bottom of the tank that can

move up and down. The problem with a push button valve is

that they can fail over time. The seal can perish or dry

out or get dirt in it and now leak and waste water. And

when it wastes water, it's something like 200 to 400 litres a day, 150 pounds a

I mean, so siphons, we can probably say

Siphons don't leak because of the way they are. Whereas a flush valve has a

habit of leaking. Absolutely, yeah. And just so, to give it a little bit

of a sort of a picture on that, there's roughly about four to five

percent of toilets across the UK that leak every day. That equates to

water, drinkable water, that goes down the toilet in terms of wasted water,

to fill about four and a half million baths full of water every

day. which is a bit scary considering that the

water is a finite resource. So obviously with companies

like Thomas Dudley, I believe they're working on solutions for this problem because

we have the ability as a UK company to think, OK,

we're going to come for the solution for that. And I imagine, Josh, you

can probably confirm that we may not make any money out

of it to start with, but we're willing to put the work in to try and find a

Very much so, and what we were talking about earlier about can we make it, can we sell

it, that opportunity for a leak-free push-button

siphon is something that some companies would

just not be interested in because of the R&D effort involved. Because we're a privately

owned company manufacturing in the UK and it's very much an opportunity

that water companies are pushing in the UK, we have the ability

to respond to that unlike a Far Eastern manufacturer who's

Yeah, he may not be necessarily that concerned with the problem that's

been identified as an issue. So I mean it's

interesting that UK-based manufacturers and British manufacturers can

have the ability to quickly adapt themselves. Like during COVID,

Thomas Dudley produced face masks for the NHS. So

you can quickly turn around something on that. If you were

sourcing, it wouldn't be something you'd probably even consider if you were sourcing from

an external source. Do you see that as

I think it's a big gear change in how we see things actually.

The things that we need to be available quickly, as

you're saying in the pandemic, I think everyone is

realizing that, you know, the closer it is made

to where it's needed, the better for us all. And Made

in Britain's effort is really to help people to make that choice, but

also to lead them to the companies that are growing manufacturing, because

we need more of this. We need more companies that

are making products, yet they might be hidden from view, but

they're making a very important part of the environmental and

social value of the country and of course the economic value because

they're employing people and I think that that choice is

now to the British public that if you're buying something that

is made in Britain you're actually doing your part in growing the economy in

I mean I think farmers have been quite successful in a lot of things

they do with their red tractor on some of the food. So

I think that that as a campaign has been relatively successful to get to

the general public to look out for that if you're buying British. So is

there any campaigns, anything activity over the next sort of 12 months, two

years that maybe Britain are going to be doing to try and sort of bang

Well what we do is we actually use our members as the loudest voice.

So we have a news platform that has literally thousands

of stories about our members and we publish those stories so

that they get into the digital streams but we also publish

them into social media. So our members are able to amplify their

voice together in the social media channels where we've got

thousands of followers that pick up on what's being made in this country. And

every time a member has a news item or a new product or an

export achievement, whatever they want to share with us

in success with the mark, we put that message out

into the world and say, look, this is the part of a growing British

community that is making products that are

closer to this country, are made closer to where they're needed, and

So you'd encourage any member, or first of all you'd encourage people

to join, but you'd encourage members who have new products or new

drugs to shout about it. Absolutely. And to let everybody know, because you

Well yeah, and I mean this is another reason this is a

good example actually of a product, because it's a product that people don't really see in

their day-to-day lives. We have, yeah, I mean my

favourite Thomas Dudley product is actually manhole covers. I mean you see them all the time. It's

those cast iron manhole covers. I mean I live over in Cambridge and

just up in Ely, we were walking in Ely

the other day and I've seen a series of Thomas Dudley manhole covers. I think those

have come all the way over from from the Midlands. But

yeah, I mean, a lot of the important things that we need, you

know, it's not like tables and chairs that you see every day. You

know, you don't really see that until you need to fix it. And

that's why it's vital that it actually lasts

a long time in place. And the same goes for critical infrastructure. We've

got members making you know, sophisticated copper cables for

moving data around the world. We've got companies making manhole covers,

manhole enclosures. You know, these are things that aren't necessarily seen

as, you know, as day to day for consumers,

but they are important that they're there and that they last

Exactly. Yeah, we would. And I mean, we all know there are some some

really important work needs to be done to improve the infrastructure of

the country. We have to sort of go greener. And we have to go greener faster.

And companies that are in this country are really working on that. I mean,

we've talked about just a siphon here, but this is saving water. It's

lasting longer in place. You know, this is part of the social economic

and environmental responsibility that comes in a toilet soap

and what do you know? I mean that's our job really is to reveal these

I mean it's a good point Josh, I mean what approach does Thomas

Dudley make for sustainability in the environment? Because I think it's manufacturing

can be seen as being quite sort of bad for the environment. But

I think companies are aware of that. So they are, they do put a lot of measures in

place in order to help that out. So what sort of things does Thomas Dudley do to

Yeah, certainly. I mean, from a product development point of view,

I'm pushing more to more towards things like recycled materials. That

comes with its own challenge, though, because recycled materials you

can't always govern the purity so we have to do a lot of trials on

that so recycled materials no-brainer but doesn't come without its challenges

we do pretty much we have no waste in our injection molding facilities

Because that's an interesting point that, you know, even within the waste

This is a habit in manufacturing. I've never met a manufacturer yet that

doesn't, that sends out unnecessary waste from their premises. It's

something that, you know, we all struggle in our daily lives, don't we,

with the blue bin that we feel full of. stuff and, you know, have the

guilty conscience. I never, I haven't seen that behavior in any manufacturer

that I've spoken to, and I speak to hundreds of them. It's almost

built into the DNA of manufacturers. Nothing goes off the premises, you

know, of value. Because the waste, of course, if it's got value, it can

either be sold on to somebody who's going to reprocess. And we have companies in

Made in Britain that are actually taking old cars and turning

them into resaleable, high-end, innovative

materials. You know, this is a mentality within

the manufacturing community that in lots of other business sectors, of

course, they don't even have to think about that. But manufacturers need

raw materials. To make stuff, you need raw materials and you need to know

what they are, you need to know about their quality. And I found that, well,

on our green growth assessment, we have a sustainability assessment

for manufacturers, the scores in circularity, so reducing

the need for virgin materials, the scores on

that, on their social and environmental impacts across the

piece are extremely high. It's because manufacturers are, they're

on it already. But of course, they don't usually, you know,

get the opportunity to shout about it. We're trying to give them that voice,

especially in this area of resource scarcity, which is

their fundamental challenge in life. It's almost an

Yeah, it's a good point, Josh. Most people won't realise that any waste that's generated

is used back in the process again. But people on

the shop floor will, because they're probably, probably they are, they will

be sort of tasked to say, OK, reduce waste, keep an eye on this. So from

a design point of view, product managers point of view, that will filter down

to the manufacturing process, right the way through to instructions

At the end of the day, it's your bottom line. One of the things that's

sort of happening now we're actually getting a little bit support from regulation and

government and that's cascading through to documentation

which whilst laborious things like EPDs, product declarations on

the environmental performance of the product, is really starting

to gain momentum in industry now. And I think that's going to really help

British manufacturers in the construction industry, because it's

really starting to put a spotlight on where, because you are

having to declare where it's actually being manufactured, the embodied carbon

of the material you're buying. That's something that will

be a really good support for UK manufacturing, I have to say. So I'm really looking forward to

I think it should be recognized. I honestly do. I think the fact that

manufacturers are on this already, and that they're conscious of

the raw materials that are needed to make things and that the waste never goes

off the premises, or at least the value of

waste never goes off the premises. I think this should be recognized in

some way. I'm not quite sure how it would be best recognized, but

some kind of green tax band for manufacturers,

I think, would be really appropriate. And who knows, we might see that

in the future. But what I know for sure is that manufacturers are

much more conscientious about those things than, certainly

than I am at my household at home, when I'm putting all my stuff in the

blue bin. You know, but manufacturers, I mean, you

know, I think of the ones that are working in precious metals. You

know, they will be gathering the dust from precious metals. You

know, I mean, this is a mentality and I do agree that

this will be a benefit to the British manufacturing community because they are already

on it. And we've actually helped them. All of our

assessments around sustainability are there to really help them to de-risk

the areas where they can do better, but also highlight the

fact that they're already on circularity of materials, on

resource scarcity, on renewable energy, on

green governance. Manufacturers are

I mean, so from a global marketplace, how do you see

sort of Made in Britain working with companies like Thomas Dudley to help sort

of push manufacturing on a global scale?

Because we all want our economy to succeed and, you

know, exporting is quite important to the business. So how

do we see all that sort of working together? I know we talked earlier about the

having the support when you're actually out there, which I think is something I didn't realize

and I think it's very important that if you're a new company and you want to start off exporting,

Made in Britain is a great resource to join because of all the extra help. But

looking at it on the future, hopefully things settle down in

the, you know, with all the problems we've got. So how do

Well, I think for for exporters, I think one of the key issues

is actually making sure that you approach new markets, you

know, with a bit of a reality check. And one of the things that we know is

that you don't want to be getting on the plane to go and visit a trade show

where you've got absolutely no chance of succeeding in that market. And

so the intelligence really, I mean, some of the some of the banks are actually offering

some really interesting databases. There's a lot of live data now around what

is actually needed in the in the territory. I'll

talk broadly, let's say North America, South America, Africa, Middle

East or Far East. You can actually now go on to the databases, and

a few of the banks are offering this service, and actually look at the

live trade data to really see whether what

you're making is actually relevant in the place that you're planning to export.

Because if it isn't, you know, you're better off putting your effort elsewhere.

The other thing that I would say that I've learned from looking at how the successful

exporters really do it is that you have to be a long-termist. And

that's why manufacturers are good at it, because they're long-term businesses by

nature. You cannot get into manufacturing, you know, on

a whim. You have to do it with a bit of a three, five or

seven year plan, because it's so difficult. And

you need a lot of different elements to come together, including people, resource,

time, premises. And you need to, as

we were saying earlier, you know, the the idea of making something

that isn't in demand and that you can't sell.

I mean, that's an absolute fundamental of business for

a Made in Britain member. I think on exports, I

think the trick is to understand that in other countries

are also making some things. We can't make everything. I

mean, there was a time when we used to make lots of things and

sell them to countries that didn't have any choice but to buy them from us. We

all know that that era is gone, long gone. Now we do have

excellence in making lots of different things. Made

in Britain is part of that effort to try and put them all in the same place so

that people can see them on the database. And when they see them on the

road, if they see a van on the road, they know that that product was made in

this country. And I think that's a collective responsibility we

all have. for thinking for stopping and pausing and thinking

well how can I do my bit for the society and for the

economy and for the environment at the same time. You can do by you

do your bit by make buying something that's made in Britain. So

Yeah sorry I mean I started really work straight

after uni and then yeah that was 2007 and then

got hit in the financial crisis of 2008. And

we've seen various crises since then. I think COVID was an

absolute cherry on the baker, really. And what I wonder is

actually the world is going to be an increasingly turbulent

place in an increasingly changing environment. And

what can you do to manage that turbulence through

being agile? And that's where being a UK manufacturer is

absolutely one of those ways. And actually buying from UK manufacturers

particularly price, actually just reinforcing what John talked about earlier, price

is not always a consideration because it is actually the same,

is do you really, do you really need to think

long, more long-term and that's what I would like to see more of, more long-term

I think people are talking more about value than price. We

have an environmental social value responsibility, I

think, as consumers. We know that as consumers we've

got to be more responsible. We've got to stop and pause and think twice before we

buy anything these days. Where is it coming from? Who supplied it?

What's happening in that country that we might need to be aware of? And

I think that, you know, buying British actually is part of

an environmental, social and economic responsibility that we

So, just finally, from a consumer point

of view, how would I recognize that this

product is made in Britain? So, what am I looking for?

It depends if you're looking at a manhole cover or you're looking at a van. But

I mean, essentially, all of our members, most of our members are using the

Made in Britain mark, which is that, I hope you saw there. We

protect the mark very, very carefully. It is registered in all

product categories. So this is a unique system that we set up.

It's unique in the world. according to academics that have looked at

it. And it's an ownership system where the members are effectively

the owners of the mark. So we protect it. My job is to protect the mark for them

so that they can use it. And they use it to identify their goods. Even

goods that are never seen by people in shops

are carrying the mark because, of course, on a boilerplate of an industrial ventilator,

you know, the people are very proud that they make these things and they ship

them all over the world and they carry the Made in Britain mark on them. And that's often where

you see it. You'll see it on, as we were saying, on

the back of a Vero van on 60, 70,000 vans every

year are being produced with it. And people should look out for it. And

if they don't see the mark on something, and they suspect it's made in Britain,

or they want to know for sure, then just go to the database. You go to

madeinbritain.org and there are three different searches there. You can search in

the news or the product directory or the membership directory and

you'll find the company. You'll find them by name. You can search for anything. You put

in copper. You can put in siphons into the news database and

you will find information about siphon makers. I

don't know if there's any others in this country. But if they're the

only one then you'll obviously find Thomas Dudley. But we do have options of

manufacturers and we've got some sectors that are very full of different manufacturers

and you can even pick and choose your manufacturer if

you're only looking for a generic product. We do have choices. No,

I think it's an awareness raising that we want to do

with the public and the mark really just leads them to the place. If

they see the mark and they know that that is a Made in Britain product and

a Made in Britain business and that they will be on the database as long

as they've paid their monthly license, their annual

And actually, from a product point of view, I'm assuming we make sure

Absolutely, yes. Yeah, we put it on all our branded cartons, as

it were, straight away. So we're trying to move away from plastic packaging

where we can. So any cardboard packaging, as far as we're aware now, has

the Made in Britain mark on all versions. So you'll see that in all

Madeinbritain.org. Madeinbritain.org has everything. It's

a ring-fenced database, so if you search for anything, or

you put a word into our database on madeinbritain.org, if

you're thinking of joining Made in Britain, you can apply there. It is

a process, it might take a few weeks before you get

in, but we do evaluate all the businesses that want

to join Made in Britain. You've got to obviously prove that you're manufacturing in this

country, and that includes obviously England, Scotland, Wales

and Northern Ireland. If you're making in any of those four places, then

you will potentially join and you

can do all of that by the website. And then all of the information on the businesses there

is all in the same place, madeinbritain.org. And just

have a look on the website and see what you can find. See if you can find something that you can

Excellent, that's brilliant. I really appreciate your time. Thank you

very much. So just say if you enjoyed this podcast, please

hit like and subscribe and press the buttons wherever they are on the screen. And

you can follow Thomas Dudley on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and

X. So a big thank you to my guests, Josh Bennett and

John Pearce from Made in Britain. And this